Mic/Drum Fill Lag and how to make it better

[hmxsean]

Hey everybody,

We're looking into this now but there are a few things you can do to limit mic and drum fill lag.

1) DLP TVs and some Plasma TVs have this problem the worst, especially when you run your sound through that TV.
2) If your TV has a "game mode" or "low latency mode" make sure you have that enabled.
3) If it's still bad, go through analog cables into an external receiver. If you go through digital, turn off 5.1 Dolby Digital from in-game.
4) If you have a receiver with adjustable latency, turn that latency off.

If this doesn't help at all please post all the info you have regarding your audio visual setup here so we can investigate further.

Thanks,
Sean

[Mistersh0w]

AWESOME! Thanks for chiming in Sean! I will give you all the info you need as far as my setup goes when I get home. I'm just happy to hear you guys are looking into this, as it's a serious issue that makes the mic portion of the game unplayable...

What I can tell you about my setup now is:

System: PS3 - 60gb, launch console
Audio: Optical Audio going from PS3 into Kenwood receiver. (will include model # later)
Video: HDMI out from PS3 into HDMI in on Mitsubishi WD-65733, 65" DLP 1080p television
Problem: Heavy mic lag problem, turned off 5.1 Dolby Digital mode, tried pretty much everything you've suggested, still have considerable amount of audio lag. Drum fills are perfectly in time on my system.

Thanks again Sean! Hopefully this problem is resolved ASAP!

Edit: I wanted to add that there is NO other lag presented in my setup. I have the default lag settings set the in game DLP settings. Everything else is perfect! Issues for me completely with mic...

[AdamBomb629]

I'll add my info for a cross reference point:

I have 360 optical out to an ONKYO 6.1 receiver -- TV 36" HDTV 4:3 Panasonic. I have no drum fill lag and marginal mic lag (wouldn't call it a problem).

EDIT: Actually, now that I am playing HARD drums, I originally thought it was the "red drum issue" that was causing me to miss the rolls. get this: It's the DOLBY. I turned that off and I'm good to go.

[Dystocia]

Turning off DD definitely didn't help for me. I'll give Onkyo a call and see if I can turn off latency.

My setup:

PS3 60gig (launch model)
JVC HD Rear Projection TV
Onkyo Digital Receiver
HDMI for both audio and video
No USB hub

The lag is really surprisingly bad. We wind up having to turn our mic volume down to 0, because it's so distracting, so basically we're just singing into a dead mic. The drum fills are also pretty much unplayable. We just wait for the green "trigger" note at the end, and hope the delayed crash sound isn't so loud that it screws everybody up when the sound occur a half second off beat.

Thanks for looking into this.

And by the way, AdamBomb, I can't tell you how hilarious your putting "broken hardware" in quotes at the bottom of your signature is, so as to belittle those of us who, for example, have guitars that stopped allowing downstrokes. I think your point that having an unplayable guitar doesn't really qualify as "broken" is pretty classy. It's really quite awesomely cool of you.

- Ben

[vtjustinb]

I have a 50" Samsung SlimDLP with no receiver. The Xbox 360 connects to the TV through the default RCA audio cables and component video.

I'm playing on the TV's "game mode" and always have since guitar hero (only way I could get the calibration to happen). I also don't have a receiver to route my audio through, nor do I anticipate purchasing one for the sole reason of drum fill lag.

Honestly if it's that big of a software hurdle I'd prefer just the option to turn the fills off completely so I don't mess with everyone's time.

Thanks for looking into this for us!

[dagware]

Let me add my thanks also, and of course I can't give you the info until I get home. One thing I can do when I get home, is hook up my PS3's RCA output to the mixing board and amp I used to use in my old band (I have some plugs that convert from RCA to 1/4 inch). This thing couldn't possibly have a lag problem, or we would have noticed it a long time ago. It will be interesting to see if it eliminates the lag.

I'll post later tonight with my results, and all the technical information. If there's anything you'd like me to try, feel free to ask.

Dan

[Bakkster]

I'm playing on the TV's "game mode" and always have since guitar hero (only way I could get the calibration to happen). I also don't have a receiver to route my audio through, nor do I anticipate purchasing one for the sole reason of drum fill lag.

Do you need to perform a lag calibration while playing in game mode?

[silverdragon1979]

I posted this in another thread, but I thought I would post it here to see if I could get an official response ....

The problem with the mic and the drum latency has absolutely nothing to do with your TV set or your stereo set. First of all this problem IS IN NO WAY VISUAL, so let's just stop blaming the type of TV we have. The problem is completely related to the way the game encodes and transmits your voice to the audio output.

The fact that when you are playing the regular guitar tracks or the regular drum tracks the audio perfectly matches what are you physically playing on your guitar or drum set proves that there is also no audio latency associated with your stereo. The problem is completely related to the way the game samples your voice, converts it to a digital signal, and then sends that signal to your stereo. It's completely software and/or PS3 hardware related. Considering how powerful the PS3 is I have to believe it's software related.

As stated earlier the latency seems to be related to the way the game handles Dolby Digital encoding. I had horrible latency myself with both the mic and the drums when I had Dolby Digital enabled. When I disabled it the latency is almost completely gone. So best solution I have found is to simply disable the Dolby Digital setting in the game. This still does not completely eliminate the latency though.

I would simply like to know why it takes so long to encode the voice properly before it's output from the PS3 ???

[vtjustinb]

Do you need to perform a lag calibration while playing in game mode?

It's pretty minor. Less than 10ms for both, and I think that's mainly b/c I'm an OCD drummer when it comes to timing.

Historically though for GH2 I had to use game mode even with calibration. No amount of calibration would make the game playable until I enabled game mode.

[Mistersh0w]

I posted this in another thread, but I thought I would post it here to see if I could get an official response ....

The problem with the mic and the drum latency has absolutely nothing to do with your TV set or your stereo set. First of all this problem IS IN NO WAY VISUAL, so let's just stop blaming the type of TV we have. The problem is completely related to the way the game encodes and transmits your voice to the audio output.

The fact that when you are playing the regular guitar tracks or the regular drum tracks the audio perfectly matches what are you physically playing on your guitar or drum set proves that there is also no audio latency associated with your stereo. The problem is completely related to the way the game samples your voice, converts it to a digital signal, and then sends that signal to your stereo. It's completely software and/or PS3 hardware related. Considering how powerful the PS3 is I have to believe it's software related.

As stated earlier the latency seems to be related to the way the game handles Dolby Digital encoding. I had horrible latency myself with both the mic and the drums when I had Dolby Digital enabled. When I disabled it the latency is almost completely gone. So best solution I have found is to simply disable the Dolby Digital setting in the game. This still does not completely eliminate the latency though.

I would simply like to know why it takes so long to encode the voice properly before it's output from the PS3 ???

This seems dead on! I would also like to hear the official response to this...

[Bakkster]

The problem with the mic and the drum latency has absolutely nothing to do with your TV set or your stereo set.

Actually, there are two types of problems. One involves lag from audio processing by a TV or receiver. The other is induced by DDS. Both happen, and both will give nearly identical symptoms.

[Angry_Games]

I finally got out the mic and started vocal training, but then after about 10 songs I thought "hey, why not try singing AND drumming/guitaring" and since I don't have a mic stand (no lag on the usb mic), I put the headset on (where to place the controller for the headset when you have a guitar in your hand??? lol), and holy geez big lag.

Haven't tried to calibrate the headset mic yet (haven't even looked to see if it was possible, so I stopped for a bit and came here to the forums to look for answers). Drum fills...ugh...i think most of our problem is that we are on-beat for the song then the drum fill comes and we sorta draw a blank as to what to play, which ends up making us lose the beat/timing, and then a mad scramble to hit that green crash note to end the fill.

I have successfully kept the beat properly all the way through the drum fill, but it's not as easy as I thought it would be (I'm not a drummer either so I already have bad rhythm trying to use dang foot pedal + sticks haha).

I've got DD enabled too, but I'm going to try turning it off just to see.

[Dystocia]

It is worth noting, in response to some of the posts above, that my calibration for standard drumming and guitars seems to work perfectly. The lag persists ONLY for drum fills and the mic.

If it helps, I will also add that I have played SingStar (PS2 versions) on my PS3 with no noticeable lag at all.

Thanks again for looking into this. You guys have done an amazing job with this game -- just look like there are a few hardware kinks you've got to work out.

- Ben

[Dystocia]

Drum fills...ugh...i think most of our problem is that we are on-beat for the song then the drum fill comes and we sorta draw a blank as to what to play, which ends up making us lose the beat/timing, and then a mad scramble to hit that green crash note to end the fill.

I have successfully kept the beat properly all the way through the drum fill, but it's not as easy as I thought it would be (I'm not a drummer either so I already have bad rhythm trying to use dang foot pedal + sticks haha).

I'm a drummer (and have played for over a decade). It definitely isn't my timing on the fills. The test, as it were, is this: don't play anything at all until the final green "trigger" note, and you'll hear how delayed the actual crash is. Additionally, you can hit any of the pads when the song first starts, but before the drums begin, and you can really see the delay. I hit my pad and there is a good half second before it responds on the screen. But I can play along with the actual song in perfect timing, thanks to calibration.

[silverdragon1979]

Actually, there are two types of problems. One involves lag from audio processing by a TV or receiver. The other is induced by DDS. Both happen, and both will give nearly identical symptoms.

My apologies. I did not clarify my statement I made in my post. There are many people experiencing this problem and some of them could be experiencing it because of latency introduced by the audio processing of their TV or receiver. I won't deny this possiblity.

However, in my situation and most likely in many other people's situations this is not the case. With my home audio setup the latency appears to be introduced by the game software or by the PS3 hardware itself. My earlier post explains why this is true.

I am attempting to get a response from someone at Harmonix to explain why the software or the PS3 hardware is causing this problem. I am also curious as to whether a fix is going to be implemented. I am not angry and am not looking for an apology. All I want to know is why it's happening and whether a fix is coming.

[Or1g1nal1ty]

Actually, the thread started is spot on - for many people at least. For me, at least.

For a week we haven't been able to have the mic volume up at all - it was a 100 or so msdelay before the voice would come out - and that's unplayable. We just turned the mic down. Then I noticed anything not PRE MADE was having the issue - guitar soloing, drum soloing. My brother is an audio engineer - and he told us to reomve as much processing as possible from the setup. So we turned off Dolby from ingame, from the PS3 setup, and from the receiver. When we finally got everything going in stereo the lag changed to almost zero. Now everything is more then playable.

I then noticed the 'lag calibration' in rock band had been set to almost 100 ms. This is required to make the PREMADE parts playable on the tv. So it hit me - the game compensates 100 or so ms - it is actually playing the music that much earlier in order to sync up with the video. This means that I'm actually playing the guitar and drums 100 ms later then the music, but i hear it at the same time thanks to the lag introduced into the whole setup by dolby and such. So when I do the NON PRE MADE parts, I'm actually playing 100 ms late in real time, which is more then TOTALLY noticable.

This is why when you ahve a calibrated setup your vocal score reacts as though you're perfectly ontime, but you're hearing yourself late. This is why the drums are always spot on but during solos is delayed. So it actually makes perfect sense that this is the real reason this is happening,

HOWEVER!

I ahve a qestion for any Harmonix people in the know who read this - why doesn't this happen at all during Singstar. Theoretically I should hear myself just as delayed on singstar as I do in Rockband, but there is no delay in Singstar, even when using the settings that cause massive delay in rockband. THAT has me puzzled.

[Angry_Games]

ok after singing some more, and testing out the headset with wireless 360 and wired 360 controller (regular controller, not guitar etc), I get a LOT of lag on the vocals through the headset, but none on the microphone.

I went to calibrate, but I can't seem to be able to calibrate just the audio? It's like a one-size-fits-all calibration for all instruments? Or am I ******ed.

Dystocia: I never meant that you and others aren't correct, sorry if it came out that way. I notice the lag on the drum fills as it always throws us off, but once in a while we somehow do it right and everything stays in time...not sure if it goes by how many notes (or different) notes we are hitting on the drums, but just sometimes there's no breakup/lag in the timing through fills.

But most times yeah lol, it screws everyone up ;)

[Dystocia]

OK -- I've tested this out setting my TV to "video game" mode and de-selecting DD. Didn't make any difference in lag, as far as I could tell. The video game mode appears to just adjust video setting, though, so I didn't really expect much difference.

I have no idea what to do to my Onkyo receiver to "bypass" anything in the hardware that might be causing latency. Any suggestions?

Thanks,
Ben

[dagware]

I just did some more research and one thing is clear: my audio system does indeed add lag. I tried hooking the RCA output from my PS3 to a mixing board I have laying around, and I plugged a headset into the mixing board. The lag is *dramatically* reduced. It's down to a really small amount -- someone else said 10ms, and that's probably about right.

For those of you that are sure it's not your audio system, I have a theory that I think is probably correct, and I'd like you to consider it. Please have an open mind. :p

When you are playing the non-fill sections, the sound that comes out of the game is not actually in response to your drum hits. The sound is a track that plays, unless you *don't* hit the right beats. In other words, all you really have control over (in the non-fill sections) is causing the drum track to NOT play. You can prove this is true, because if you play in the easier modes, there's drum sounds that happen even though you didn't hit those pads -- things like double kicks, 16th note high hat hits, etc. Play something in easy mode and you'll see what I mean.

So assuming the above is true, here's my theory: The track could actually be playing early (before your drum hits). It sounds like it's in time to your hits because it's produced early by the game and delayed by your sound system, so it comes out right. If you miss a beat, there's probably a small portion of the sound you still hear.

However, when you get to the fill sections, those sounds are actually generated when you hit the pads. So if your system has a delay, that's when you'll hear it.

As I said before, I'm fairly certain this is true. Someone from Harmonix could clear all this up if they'd just verify if what I've said is correct or not.

So here's what I'm doing: Now I'm playing through my stereo system with the game calibration set to None, and my receiver set to "direct mode". And I'm using headphones (although this may not be completely necessary, I'm sure my neighbors appreciate it.) The lag is down to close to acceptable. I can do my fills, although I concentrate on hitting the first beat a slight bit early, and I have a slight pause at the end of the fill. It's small enough that I can handle it, and I'm not a drummer by any stretch of the imagination.

For the good people here at Harmonix, if you'd care to comment on how the game actually works and if my theory is correct or not, I'd appreciate it. Thanks.

Dan

[Bakkster]

I have no idea what to do to my Onkyo receiver to "bypass" anything in the hardware that might be causing latency. Any suggestions?

Ask the manufacturer, read the manual, or look for a "CD" or "Stereo" input.

[Dystocia]

Ask the manufacturer, read the manual, or look for a "CD" or "Stereo" input.

Nothing in the manual. Setting it on stereo or CD doesn't appear to make much difference.

As for the suggestion mentioned by Dagware, that seems like an awfully complicated set up to STILL get (reduced) lag.

Is the idea that because I calibrate my system at +23, this is causing my lag? That effectively makes the game broken for me, unless I find a way to strip my $3k A/V system down to, basically, 1980s-era components so that I can have a 0 calibration.

Are some users able to both calibrate their game AND avoid lag on the mics and fills? Why would that be?

[Senkoy]

I actually don't get any drum fill lag and i didn't have any lag of any kind without doing any calibration, but i do have mic lag. I hear my voice a little after i speak into it and i have to sing ahead of time in other to get things right. Kinda game breaking. Like a previous poster stated, i really don't think it has anything to do with our systems but how the game processes our voices.

Hope you guys can fix it with a patch because DD sounds SO much better.

[Mistersh0w]

I actually don't get any drum fill lag and i didn't have any lag of any kind without doing any calibration, but i do have mic lag. I hear my voice a little after i speak into it and i have to sing ahead of time in other to get things right. Kinda game breaking. Like a previous poster stated, i really don't think it has anything to do with our systems but how the game processes our voices.

Hope you guys can fix it with a patch because DD sounds SO much better.

Agreed. My drum fills are fine... Having to sing ahead of time, or being confused with faster paced vocal sections along with the laggy voice problem is a serious hindrance, and makes the singing portion of the game unplayable.

[bench43]

I dont think the problem is REALLY the fact that the audio lags. The problem seems to be much more serious than that (with the mic at least). as im sure someone has already said, I can confirm that the signal from the mic to the game is behind or there is a software problem. At any rate the point is that when I start singing on time, the game picks it up late. ALSO for example, when the note runs from high to low, you can see the arrow lag behind your voice. Turning down the vocal volume does not help. You still get less than perfect scoring.

[Bakkster]

I dont think the problem is REALLY the fact that the audio lags. The problem seems to be much more serious than that (with the mic at least). as im sure someone has already said, I can confirm that the signal from the mic to the game is behind or there is a software problem. At any rate the point is that when I start singing on time, the game picks it up late. ALSO for example, when the note runs from high to low, you can see the arrow lag behind your voice. Turning down the vocal volume does not help. You still get less than perfect scoring.

If there is no lag on your system, or it does this on a lagless system (like CRT and computer speakers) you may have an input lag or faulty mic.

[dagware]

Not to be a pest, but I (and I assume others) are still waiting for some sort of "official" word from Harmonix on how the sounds for the fills are generated, and why they might have a different lag than the non-fill sounds. I'm sure it would help us diagnose the problem, and also give some clues as to how to mitigate it.

Also, some word on possible solutions you might provide via a patch would be appreciated. For instance, would it be feasible for you to have an option to eliminate fills, replacing them with standard non-fill drum notes? This sounds like a lot of work, so I would kind of think not. But any hints of possible fixes would be appreciated also.

Dan

[Bakkster]

Not to be a pest, but I (and I assume others) are still waiting for some sort of "official" word from Harmonix on how the sounds for the fills are generated, and why they might have a different lag than the non-fill sounds. I'm sure it would help us diagnose the problem, and also give some clues as to how to mitigate it.

I may not be able to give official word, but the way the game does lag calibration is to send audio out early. Drum fills can't be sent early, for obvious reasons. This can cause them to lag, either by extra processing time on the console (the DDS problem) or by delay in the sound system (the receiver problem).


Also, some word on possible solutions you might provide via a patch would be appreciated. For instance, would it be feasible for you to have an option to eliminate fills, replacing them with standard non-fill drum notes? This sounds like a lot of work, so I would kind of think not. But any hints of possible fixes would be appreciated also.

I think the problem right now is there are three places you could get drum fill/mic lag:
1) Input
2) On-console processing
3) Audio equipment

A lot of the problems seem to be caused by the audio equipment used, others are caused by DDS. The best way to help HMX is to fix all the problems caused by audio equipment so they can focus on the other issues. Then, by getting data on when DDS is on/off and the effects and if both or only one of the instruments is lagging, HMX should be able to determine how to fix the various issues. This might be through replacing faulty peripherals, or patching the code that is causing lag on some systems. The sooner everyone narrows down the exact ways they receive lag, the sooner HMX knows what to patch/replace.

[Mistersh0w]

...A lot of the problems seem to be caused by the audio equipment used, others are caused by DDS. The best way to help HMX is to fix all the problems caused by audio equipment so they can focus on the other issues. Then, by getting data on when DDS is on/off and the effects and if both or only one of the instruments is lagging, HMX should be able to determine how to fix the various issues. This might be through replacing faulty peripherals, or patching the code that is causing lag on some systems. The sooner everyone narrows down the exact ways they receive lag, the sooner HMX knows what to patch/replace.

Well right off the bat I can tell you that A. The lag is present with DDS on, AND off. And Actually last night I discovered that there IS drum lag during the fills on my system... I guess it wouldn't make much sense to not have both types of peripheral lag... But I didn't think I had the drum fill lag until I really tried for it during the fill section, everyone who has mic lag and believes they don't have drum fill lag should test out their drum fill sections by hitting one note at a time, instead of going crazy or hitting randomly...

But as well, i'm wondering when we'll hear the next word on this subject...

[Bakkster]

Well right off the bat I can tell you that A. The lag is present with DDS on, AND off. And Actually last night I discovered that there IS drum lag during the fills on my system... I guess it wouldn't make much sense to not have both types of peripheral lag... But I didn't think I had the drum fill lag until I really tried for it during the fill section, everyone who has mic lag and believes they don't have drum fill lag should test out their drum fill sections by hitting one note at a time, instead of going crazy or hitting randomly...

But as well, i'm wondering when we'll hear the next word on this subject...

If you've ruled out any output lag as well, then let HMX know your system specs so they can take a look at how to fix the issue.

[Mistersh0w]

If you've ruled out any output lag as well, then let HMX know your system specs so they can take a look at how to fix the issue.

2nd post in the thread good sir! My specs are pretty much complete... Though, I didn't add receiver model type... Is that necessary?


EDIT: OOO by the way, this is my 100th post! WEEE Senior Member time!

[Gin_Orphan]

I have a Panasonic LCD TV, high def, and I have all audio options that may have post-processing turned off. When using vocals (No problems with fills, that I can tell), the bar hits the line SIGNIFICANTLY before the audio of the song reaches that point. Now, if it was simply the audio processing of my voice that wasn't working, I would turn mic volume off and let that be that, but I have to sing a half beat before I am supposed to, which according to my bandmates is jarring and horrible.
Of course, having no idea how the programming behind it works, i would assume that since the audio delay is necessary to calibrate the other instruments, all that would be required to fix the solution with vocals is to delay the progress of the pitch bar and to score based on that.

[dagware]

If you've ruled out any output lag as well, then let HMX know your system specs so they can take a look at how to fix the issue.

It is becoming increasingly apparent that my system is indeed the culprit. But how will knowing the specs of my system help MMX? Don't get me wrong -- if it will help I will provide them. But HMX can't possibly solve the issue with my system, because it would require them actually sending drum sounds *before* I play them. As far as I know, this kind of clairvoyance is beyond the current ability of programmers. :p

So I don't see how having the specs from my system helps at all. The only solutions I can see are:

1) Live with it. (I am -- I reduced it to *almost* manageable.)

2) Don't play during the fills (not a great option, but for some, the only one).

3) Buy a new audio system. Might also require a new video system. I would buy a new audio system right this minute if someone could tell me what specific receivers don't cause this problem. I won't take the word of just any poster, though, because it appears a lot of people don't notice lag even though it might be present. But if there were a way to be sure, I'd do it in a heartbeat (or is that drumbeat?). Any excuse to upgrade my system is a good excuse, as far as I'm concerned. (Double Income No Kids.)

4) Change the software to, perhaps optionally, get rid of free-form fills. This would also require some other method of turning on Overdrive for the drummer. And it sounds like a lot of work, since it would probably require re-doing all the tracks.

None of these options would be helped by knowing my system specs. Is there another option that I'm missing?

Dan

[Bakkster]

2nd post in the thread good sir! My specs are pretty much complete... Though, I didn't add receiver model type... Is that necessary?

EDIT: OOO by the way, this is my 100th post! WEEE Senior Member time!

You should likely include a model number, just for added reference. It might be best to make a thread of only setups where the lag is not a result of DDS or receiver latency, so HMX can have quick, easy access to that info.

Also, congrats!

Edit:

It is becoming increasingly apparent that my system is indeed the culprit. But how will knowing the specs of my system help MMX? Don't get me wrong -- if it will help I will provide them. But HMX can't possibly solve the issue with my system, because it would require them actually sending drum sounds *before* I play them. As far as I know, this kind of clairvoyance is beyond the current ability of programmers. :p

System specs would help pinpoint any common-ground issues. It never hurts to have more information while troubleshooting ;)

As far as your actual system, have you asked the manufacturer if there is a way to bypass post-processing? Either through a system setting or an input that bypasses these steps are the most likely ways. Good luck!

[dagware]

PS: On the off chance that the specs really will help, I have a Denon AVR-2105. I'm using optical, in "direct" mode. I tried using RCA jacks and I didn't really see any difference, but it's kind of hard to tell the difference between 200ms and 150ms. :o The video system shouldn't matter because I have calibration set to None, but if anyone cares, I have an InFocus 4805 projector.

[dagware]

It might be best to make a thread of only setups where the lag is not a result of DDS or receiver latency, so HMX can have quick, easy access to that info.

Wait... What? Maybe I'm confused (actually, make the "definitely"). What else would latency be caused by, if not DDS or the receiver/sound processing system?

Dan

[Bakkster]

Wait... What? Maybe I'm confused (actually, make the "definitely"). What else would latency be caused by, if not DDS or the receiver/sound processing system?

Dan

Input processing, or the on-console audio processing. It's also possible this could be affected by some odd external circumstance (optical audio, HD resolution, etc).

[chief2oo2]

Think it is really bad that have to turn off features like DDS because of their fault of not making their software work. You pay for one thing and have to turn off most likely a bigger investment elsewhere.

[zonk217]

I had my ps3 hooked to a new lg 42" 1080p lcd and had the lag. I redirected my audio straight to my stereo and its now perfect. Just wanted to let people know it can be fixed.

[vidwiz]

I have lag problems with the PS3. I am convinced the main problem is either with the console, hardware or software, or perhaps the peripherals (ADC for mic???)

With Dolby enabled in game I get a huge lag perhaps as much as 500ms on both mic and drum fills. With dolby off vocals become doable but still with about 150??? ms lag, drums fills still sound terrible with same 150 ms approximate delay.

I have tried analog outs of ps3 with no improvement. When dolby is on, (using dig. outs) nothing aligns correctly including regular drum playing, guitar ... etc it's all off. (clue!?) ((perhaps pointing to multiple lag issues including receiver))With dolby off, regular playing is spot on.

Perhaps another clue for your engineers, I've noticed in practice mode that the drum cymbal metronome lags when I am playing, especially on faster tunes, but keeps up when I am not playing.

Also, if of any help, I have noticed that sometimes I will miss (not play) a note, (drums or guitar) but it will 'sound' anyway.

Seems to me that the speed with which the ps3 is processing things is getting bogged down thus delayed when it has to start doing more complicated computations; dolby, drum samples, ADC...

[Senkoy]

The fact that the game picks up the vocals late and that nothing else lags is proof that the game is not processing our vocals fast enough. And i've tested my drum fills by tapping once at a time and i still dont notice lag.

[Dystocia]

The thing that confuses the CRAP out of me is that SingStar works just fine. So if the problem is latency in my audio system, why does SingStar work and not Rock Band?

If the problem is that the lag occurs for "real time" singing because I have adjusted the calibration for playing the guitar, then the game is irreparably broken (because I have no choice but to calibrate my guitar). But I would think that this problem would then affect everyone who calibrated his or her system, which doesn't seem to be the case.

Have we heard anything from Harmonix since the original post?

[Mistersh0w]

...Have we heard anything from Harmonix since the original post?

Nope, not a peep in 3 days... Which given how busy they are, I don't blame em... Though, a quick update would be nice...

[dagware]

The thing that confuses the CRAP out of me is that SingStar works just fine. So if the problem is latency in my audio system, why does SingStar work and not Rock Band?

That IS confusing. Just when I thought I understood...


If the problem is that the lag occurs for "real time" singing because I have adjusted the calibration for playing the guitar, then the game is irreparably broken (because I have no choice but to calibrate my guitar).

Since I don't have this kind of latency, I can't speak from experience, but I have to ask: Instead of using calibration, can't you just play a little earlier? In other words, imagine the bar that eats the notes happens a little earlier? Just wondering.

Dan

[Dystocia]

Since I don't have this kind of latency, I can't speak from experience, but I have to ask: Instead of using calibration, can't you just play a little earlier? In other words, imagine the bar that eats the notes happens a little earlier? Just wondering.

Dan

No way. For one thing, that completely ruins the experience of a rhythm based game. It is impossible to get into the "mood" of playing together when we all have to be concentrating on playing drums/guitar/bass intentionally off-beat with the song. And even when we could do it, it still ruins the "mood" -- enough so that I wouldn't want to play.

Additionally, for fast songs with multiple quick notes (i.e. "Paranoid"), it is pretty much impossible to play early consistently for a long stretch with that jumble of notes all in a row. Well, I mean, I guess ANYTHING is possible, if you practiced for long enough, but I HAVE tried it, (and I'm a decent player -- certainly capable of getting through songs on Expert) and it would take days for me to even get close.

All of which is a long winded way of saying: maybe I could do it that way, but it wouldn't be any fun.

[Killbasa]

I'm having the same fill/mic lag issues reported here.

Playing on a PS3 with HDMI to a DLP television and Optical out to a Home Theatre Receiver

I have been experimenting with various configs and outboard gear set-ups (analogue v. digital, different receivers, etc), trying to narrow the problem down.

One thing that seemed to help was to exit out of the game to the PS3 system menu and turn off Dolby there as well as in the game.


The main reason for my post is to request a diagnostic tool. I would like to see a Freeform Track as DLC.... basically a 3 to 4 minute song that's nothing but a long fill break. This would help with more definitive testing and lag measurement.

(Not to mention that it would be very cool to just play whatever you wanted :p )

[rice4114]

All my karaoke revolution games work perfectly. My mic lag is so bad its not part of the game for me anymore.

PS3/yamaha reciever/digital optical out/ Infocus projector
I turned the game to mono, thats right mono, and still lag! :(((((:mad::(:confused:

[sven nilson]

This is a real shame. When I played this on someone else's system, it worked brilliantly. Thus, I went out, purchased a PS3 and picked up the Rock Band package.

I am using the optical output to my Home Theater Receiver and running with a DLP television. The guitar seems ok, the drums are fine until it's free form (solo) time. The lag is so ridiculous that it makes the game virtually unplayable.

I would like to hear something, anything, from the folks at HMX regarding a fix for this. This is really disappointing and I am somehwhat releived yet frustrated to hear that I am not the only one with this problem.

I've tried alot of the remedies in this thread, but nothing is fixing this. PLEASE HELP!!!

Steve

[spblat]

Turned off Dolby Digital, recalibrated audio offset to 0, manually calibrated video lag to 13ms and drum fills are pretty good. I have a DLP TV and a Pioneer receiver.

[Mistersh0w]

The biggest problem is, there's really NOTHING to do with vocals in the meantime! There's pretty much no practical fixes for this issue at all... I'd like to know what HMX is up to currently in regards to this HORRIBLE problem...

[spblat]

Drum lag is definitely worse when I play local multiplayer. This suggests to me that with the PS3 working harder to support more players, audio latency is increasing. It makes me hope HMX et al are working on version 1.02 to resolve this problem.

[sven nilson]

Drum lag is definitely worse when I play local multiplayer. This suggests to me that with the PS3 working harder to support more players, audio latency is increasing. It makes me hope HMX et al are working on version 1.02 to resolve this problem.

It would be nice to at least hear "something" from HMX/EA. I've sent emails, called on the phone (sorry, a 45 minute wait time on hold wont cut it for me), and obviously posted here. Even a simple, "yes, we realize there are issue and we are working hard to resolve them" would suffice at this point.

[dagware]

Even a simple, "yes, we realize there are issue and we are working hard to resolve them" would suffice at this point.

See the first post in this thread. I agree that it would be nice to hear more from them. But I think the first post does at least acknowledge that there's a problem, they know about it, and they're working to fix it.

Of course we'd all LOVE to hear some more details, but I don't think it's fair to say they haven't acknowledged the problem.

Dan

[frogpond1]

No lag problems yet...knock on wood.
Sanyo Z4 HD 1080i/720p front projector
Denon 2106
Optical Audio Out
Componant Out
I love this game but its sad to see so many problems and so many frustrated people.

[dagware]

I love the game too. For me, the frustration is mostly because the rest of the game is so dang good! I want it all, and I want it now! :p Seriously, I'm enjoying the game even with the issues. But I'm still going to be a squeaky wheel.

Dan

[Highlandlassie]

Is this the official "Fix"?

We spend lots of money for the hi end surround sound equipment, and I might add, it is awesome to hear this kind of game in digital surround sound.
To disable this great feature is just unacceptable.
Dont you guys test this stuff before you sell it?
The vocal part of the game is a joke as it is right now.
I have about a half second delay between the time you sing, and the time the sound comes from the center channel speaker.
We have to turn the mic volume all the way down so you just hear the "live" voice or it is totally unplayable.

My system is a Sony STRV-444-ES receiver running through optical audio.

And NO, I refuse to turn off dolby digital to fix a problem which should not exist.

[duomenox]

Honestly,

I have an issue with Rock Band on my 360, but only with the Drums... With the guitar controllers, you (visually) wait for the note to move over the line and hit the correct buttons... works just like GH 2 and 3! However the drums are a different story.

When it comes to the drums, in order to successfully hit a note, you have to hit the drum about 10ms prior to the note moving over the drumline. Please take notice that this only happens on drums, not on vocals or guitar/base. I can change the overall settings for the lag, but then the rest of the instruments suffer.

On another note, I have an issue with the assumptions that the lag is caused by a person's setup. Many years ago, this may have been the case, but newer equipment is rated at 4ms and less for response times (especially High-Definition equipment). I am able to play both GH 2 and 3 without any issues with my setup which means that the issue is residing in Rock Band only. I tried the presets for DLP systems but a 50ms delay is way too far off.

I'm trying not to ***** here, I just want to make sure that Harmonics/EA understands that the issue seems to be within the Rock Band software, not individual A/V setups. My opinion is that if my setup works fine with GH 2 and 3 then there is not any reason it should not work with RB... the way it is.

Please formally acknowledge any issues you are working on so that the customers that read these forums know that you are working on fixing the issues they are experiencing.

Thank you.

[rockbandroger]

Okay, I want to make sure I have this correct...

I, too have to hit the drums early to get a successful hit. This makes the drums totally unplayable for me. I am a drummer and like to play to the music. Playing this way, you might as well mute the sound and just hit buttons.

The guitars are fine. The mic lags a bit but is not really an issue.

I manually adjusted the delay on the drums and it instantly became a great joy! ...only to find out that the guitars were then screwed.

Can you not adjust them individually without messing up the others? I thought since it lets you adjust the settings according to YOUR login that it would only apply to the instrument that your profile is logged into.

Can someone please clarify this? (360 version btw. don't know if PS3 is different)

I've been playing games for decades. Minus this issue I'd say this is one of the best games to come out in many years.

[LordFlatus]

On the 360 I had 'orrible mic lag. I like to geek out on my home theater setup and consider myself pretty techie about it, but lo and behold I discovered that I had a 60 ms delay set for the Xbox input on Yamaha receiver. WTF? Why would I do such a thing???

I set it 0 ms for that input and voila no more issue with the mic. :D So I guess you really should check your AVR settings if you are having this problem.

[rockbandroger]

On the 360 I had 'orrible mic lag. I like to geek out on my home theater setup and consider myself pretty techie about it, but lo and behold I discovered that I had a 60 ms delay set for the Xbox input on Yamaha receiver. WTF? Why would I do such a thing???

I set it 0 ms for that input and voila no more issue with the mic. :D So I guess you really should check your AVR settings if you are having this problem.


I will check to make sure being that I'm willing to try anything. But how can the guitars be on time when the mic and drums aren't? I guess it's *possible that the guitars are off but we don't notice because the sounds aren't as obvious as a drum hit or your own vocals. I doubt this is true though because it wouldn't explain us being so off when we had the drums (and therefore guitars) adjusted to counter the delay.

I will try because I just want a solution.

* So am I correct when I assume that ALL instruments/vocals are changed when you calibrate the drums?

[bkwhitney]

There really are multiple issues at play here and that makes it hard to work through them.

It appears that each instrument has its own separate lag issue.

Mic:
There is nothing I've been able to tweak to fix the TWO microphone issues:
1) Sound lag out of the speakers. This is a nuisance issue since it really sounds awful with delayed voices coming out. Almost like an echo.
2) Input lag into the PS3 causing processing of voice sound to be delayed. This results in weaker scores. It is near impossible to get through a song in HARD mode as a result of this. As many people have finally figured out, this has NOTHING to do with A/V processing since the problem is visible with the lagging on-screen arrow.

Guitar:
Guitar synch: Can be improved by tweaking the settings.

Drum synch Can be improved by tweaking the settings.

However!!! It appears that the settings I use for one instrument (guitar or drum) seem to make the other worse. I have yet to find a setting that works perfectly for both. I'm still experimenting, but it seems as if each instrument should have its own settings. Not sure if this is doable in a software patch though. But without it, forget about this being a true multiplayer game.

I work in the software industry and this is a completely unacceptable release of software. I'm still playing it in single player mode (although single player singing is not doable yet), but I was thoroughly embarrassed showing this off in front of my friends in multiplayer mode. I hope the company can release something soon to fix these issues.

[generationofghosts]

Okay, I want to make sure I have this correct...

I, too have to hit the drums early to get a successful hit. This makes the drums totally unplayable for me. I am a drummer and like to play to the music. Playing this way, you might as well mute the sound and just hit buttons.

The guitars are fine. The mic lags a bit but is not really an issue.

I manually adjusted the delay on the drums and it instantly became a great joy! ...only to find out that the guitars were then screwed.

Can you not adjust them individually without messing up the others? I thought since it lets you adjust the settings according to YOUR login that it would only apply to the instrument that your profile is logged into.

Can someone please clarify this? (360 version btw. don't know if PS3 is different)

I've been playing games for decades. Minus this issue I'd say this is one of the best games to come out in many years.
Exact same problem for me...I'm a drummer too and bought Rock Band BECAUSE of the drum feature. What a shock it was to find out that this HUGE lag problem made drums unplayable. I guess this is what you get for being an early adopter, huh?

I also have the mic lag problems, I think that its safe to say that anyone on an HDMI setup will, and it does make it impossible to play on Hard (even Medium is touch-and-go on some songs). And why is this such a difficult thing to do? I can run a real microphone through a phantom power box, into my USB box, and out to my computer with NO delay. Why can't a cheap USB microphone do the same thing (like the Karaoke Revolution microphone that worked perfectly on PS2, for example)?

I think it should show how great a game (in theory) Rock Band is that we're all *****ing and moaning about these very real and very unfixable (on the consumer end, anyway) issues and yet we still love the game. I've learned to adjust to play the drums which isn't extremely fun but more so than not playing at all, I suppose.

HARMONIX/EA NEED TO RELEASE A PATCH TO FIX THIS AND THE GUITAR HERO 3 INCOMPATABILITY ISSUE FOR PS3!!!!!!

[Vey]

Here's the system I have, the settings I have, and what I've done to reduce lag (a little):

System
TV: Sony KDS-50A2000 SXRD (LCoS) Rear Projection
Receiver: Sony DA5300ES
System: PS3

Hookups
I have the PS3 hooked up by HDMI to the receiver. The Receiver passes video to the TV via HDMI.

Settings
TV: Game Mode is off (because the option is disabled for HDMI connections)
Receiver: A/V Sync (AKA Lip Sync) is set to 0ms. Audio mode is A.F.D Auto
PS3: Digital audio output thru HDMI. All supported frequencies enabled.
Rockband: Dolby Digital enabled (in-game), Delay (or whatever the first option is in calibration) set to 35ms, Lag set to 15ms

The Problem
With the above settings the game in in-sync for everything but the drum solos. I can play songs with repetitive quarter notes on Hard and even Expert without issue. But I get probably 1/4 second delay on the drum solos. That's enough to not only mess up my rhythm, but that of the whole "band". It's gotten to the point where I either just hit the last "trigger" cymbal crash, or I hit random drums completely out of rhythm (keeping the beat with my left foot) which surprisingly doesn't screw up my "band mates" too much.

Making it Better
Turning off Dolby Digital in-game DOES make a noticeable difference. There is still drum lag, but not nearly as much. I had to drop the Delay (or whatever the first option is in calibration) and the Lag a bit to get back in-sync (which still isn't perfect), but all together these settings bring the drum lag down to probably 1/10 of a second or less. It's ALMOST fixed at that point...

But I don't like turning off DD. I like the crowd sounds flowing thru the room. And while I have the sync nearly perfect with DD on, I'm struggling to get it right with DD off. (By the way, does anyone know which of the two, Delay or Lag, I should be adjusting after turning off DD, knowing that turning off DD reduces the lag time between hitting a drum and hearing the sound in game?)

There are more things I can test. I can turn off DD on the PS3 itself. I can run the PS3 directly to the TV. I can use other audio outputs (Optical). I can change the audio mode on the receiver (in case the mode I'm using now is adding processing lag). But I would perfer none of these be the final solution. Outside of Rockband my system works great just the way it's set up, and I've had to do a lot of tuning to get it there.

I think to finally get this issue resolved we need the devs to fix the game. The DD lag needs to be reduced (eliminated?). And it's clear there's still a bit further they'd have to go than that.

Final Note: I have not yet tested the mic. No one in my "band" is currently willing to show off their singing talent. I guess I'll have to be the one to do it if I want to see how bad mic lag really is.

[rockbandroger]

*update:

I checked my reciever and there was no delay.

I played with the settings a bit. If I adjust the delay to 40ms, the drums become very good for me. It's not perfect but close enough. This does change the guitars a bit but the change is not enough to be an issue. Honestly, it's slight enough that I don't think I would have noticed the change (in guitar and bass) if I didn't know the settings had been changed. I'm not that good at the guitar however. I only play some songs on hard.

I had it on 80ms before which was possibly slightly better for drums (appears about the same as 40ms) but 80ms made the guitars miserable.

This change in drums is MAJOR (at 40). With it set at 0, I do fair to crappy on easy. With the setting at 40, I can rock out a song on hard while barely looking at the screen. I glance at the screen to see *which pad I'm supposed to hit and if I know, I don't even have to look because I can go by sound. Basically it goes from horrible to very good.

The lag when freestlying (before the song starts and during fills) is still there but I can live with that. It's not horrible and I don't think the fills sound very good anyway(weakness in placement and the sound changes).

I didn't test the mic but the mic hasn't been much of an issue either way. There's definitely a delay but not much at all and not enough to confuse the singer. It doesn't seem that the mic changes much no matter how we put the settings.

**Something I've noticed from reading different forums and posts:

I could be wrong but it seems that the PS3 people are ones who are complaining about major mic lag whereas you don't hear much about the mic lag with 360 people. ??

Unless I run into a new kink, I've got the game very playable on all instruments/vocals. Good luck to everyone. Hopefully they will find a resolution to this but keep tinkering with it in the meantime because this game is very fun.

[Bakkster]

*update:

I checked my reciever and there was no delay.

How did you verify there was no lag from your A/V setup?

It's possible you might have an input lag from the drums, if the rest of the peripherals (especially the mic) work fine and there is no lag on your system (audio and A/V lag set to 0ms).

[Vanguard]

Here's my setup...

360 ---> HDMI out to my 64" panasonic plasma TV ---> RCA cables to my receiver (i'll edit when I get home)

My lag right now is set up around 90ms, but drum fills and pre-song tomfoolery are about a quarter-second late. Unlike others, when I turned off DDS in the game, it did absolutely nothing.

[piratepwnsninja]

Posted this elsewhere, but posting it here too:

After further analysis I think that the problem has nothing to do with lag with audio receivers, etc and MORE to do with lag from the USB mic itself. Could also explain the lag with drum fills as they are not canned and have to do with decoding from the digital USB signal in the Xbox then out. This also deals with the slight audible delay you hear from when you speak into the mic and hear it out of your speakers. Sure turning off DD makes it shorter, but it does NOT eliminate it completely. I have actually had many people run the test below on varying setups and all have found it true.

Before people say I am obviously wrong, hear me out and at least TRY what I am going to suggest in order to see the problem. Start on easy difficulty with singing and notice, well, how easy it is. Do the same song on a higher difficulty and keep doing this until you go to expert. You will notice that on easier difficulties, the timing window for when you can start is much greater than it is on hard or expert. On Expert, even running directly to a TV's audio inputs, you have to hum or start a split-second before you are supposed to so that the ARROW indicating you have started singing actually shows up in time to register. I do not think this has anything to do lag being introduced AFTER the sound leaves the 360, but actually with lag introduced from the time the sound even gets decoded inside the 360 and it registers in game.

Many people probably just think, "Oh, it must be something with expert difficulty just being really hard." when in reality it is just off due to this. No amount of cable rewiring, new audio equipment, etc. is going to fix a problem introduced at the point the sound gets into the console. This is something that is going to have to be patched. How they fool the system is up to them (there are a few ways I can think of), but it needs to be done.

[bkwhitney]

I'm fairly technical and I have to agree that everything I've found so far points to a problem in software. Whether it is fixable by a software patch or not is what concerns me. This probably is not a trivial issue to solve which is why they are being a little hush on promising a solution.

[Mistersh0w]

Frankly, at this point, i'm starting to become pretty impatient... My guitar stopped working last week, and the red pad on my drum set doesn't register since Sunday... I basically have a BROKEN game... keep in mind this is all from normal playing as well, I don't go crazy on the drums, and I treated my guitar just as I treated my GH guitars... As it stands the only "working" peripheral I have left is the mic, and even THAT doesn't work! We really need an update to this crap, ASAP...

[rockbandroger]

How did you verify there was no lag from your A/V setup?

It's possible you might have an input lag from the drums, if the rest of the peripherals (especially the mic) work fine and there is no lag on your system (audio and A/V lag set to 0ms).

I checked to make sure there was no delay in my reciever settings (as someone above suggested I do).

I also forgot to mention that when I turn DD on or off it makes absolutely no difference.

[Bakkster]

I checked to make sure there was no delay in my reciever settings (as someone above suggested I do).

I also forgot to mention that when I turn DD on or off it makes absolutely no difference.

Have you tried using computer speakers, or another audio setup which you can guarantee has no lag. Some receivers add a delay beyond any configurable delay. You might have a separate input that bypasses this delay and goes straight to the speakers.

[rockbandroger]

Have you tried using computer speakers, or another audio setup which you can guarantee has no lag. Some receivers add a delay beyond any configurable delay. You might have a separate input that bypasses this delay and goes straight to the speakers.


I can try running it through the tv speakers to see if it makes a difference. But like I said, I have it workable for now. The drum fills are really laggy but it seems the better I get main drum part, the worse the fills.

The only thing I haven't tested since finding a good setting is playing with all 4 players to see if it introduces any lag. 3 players so far has been fine.

[Bakkster]

I can try running it through the tv speakers to see if it makes a difference. But like I said, I have it workable for now. The drum fills are really laggy but it seems the better I get main drum part, the worse the fills.

The only thing I haven't tested since finding a good setting is playing with all 4 players to see if it introduces any lag. 3 players so far has been fine.

The TV speakers might still have a latency, although you can try them as well. In general:
More complexity -> More lag

[SpikeX]

PS3 "Lite" 20GB Launch Model
Rock Band (Purchased 11/30)
TV: Sony Grand Wega 50" HDTV
No external/3rd party audio
Calibration set to LCD TV.

Drum fill is fine, but mic lags, I'd guess at around 500ms.

[piratepwnsninja]

The TV speakers might still have a latency, although you can try them as well. In general:
More complexity -> More lag


I am telling you this isn't the problem. I stand by my testing method as I have had numerous people try it on a variety of setups, including using PC speakers as you suggested.

[Bakkster]

I am telling you this isn't the problem. I stand by my testing method as I have had numerous people try it on a variety of setups, including using PC speakers as you suggested.

I never said it is the problem, just that it could be the problem, and it's pretty common at that. In any case, the goal is to pinpoint where the lag is coming from: it's harder to isolate input latency than it is to isolate output latency, IMO. With input lag (especially on the mic), it is more difficult to determine if there is an actual latency, or just a perceived latency. It also becomes impossible to verify if there is an audio or visual lag, since the A/V lag will cover the input lag.

Either system will work, though, as long as the individual component can be isolated and verified to be causing latency. Use whichever system seems best.

[R4d4R]

how bout the pedal u ever gona look into that harmonix huh

[Barrid]

I get the drum fill lag with my 50" Samsung Slim DLP TV hooked directly to my XBox 360 via HDMI. This is running to the TV directly and I don't have any external sound system hooked up (ours just broke so we have to use TV speakers for now). Dolby Digital is not turned on in the game (it was off by default) and I have the Game Mode of the TV turned on.

I've calibrated things so the normal drum parts seem good but the drum fill lag completely kills the perception that you are really playing.

[jarvisgkj]

I to am having problems withlag on my mic. I have a theater and am using a projector, on a 120 inch screen. i am using an onkyo 7.1 receiver and a 60 gig ps3.

[nate]

don't know if anyone has noticed/mentioned this yet, but i have had no previous lag on any instrument. i played all the way through expert on guitar, no problems...i just recently started to play the drums and have gone all the way through on easy. i had no problem doing on-beat drum fills on easy, but noticed an INSTANT difference the first song i tried on medium. this would def point to a software rendering/processing problem because obviously on the lower levels it's not throwing the notes at you as quick (and in turn not having to process the fills very quickly). i have no audio lag, and my ps3 is connected to my hardmon kardon receiver through analog left/right red/white hookups. does this make any sense to anyone? i'm hoping this software update might resolve the drum fill issue as well as the controller compatability.

[Bakkster]

don't know if anyone has noticed/mentioned this yet, but i have had no previous lag on any instrument. i played all the way through expert on guitar, no problems...i just recently started to play the drums and have gone all the way through on easy. i had no problem doing on-beat drum fills on easy, but noticed an INSTANT difference the first song i tried on medium. this would def point to a software rendering/processing problem because obviously on the lower levels it's not throwing the notes at you as quick (and in turn not having to process the fills very quickly). i have no audio lag, and my ps3 is connected to my hardmon kardon receiver through analog left/right red/white hookups. does this make any sense to anyone? i'm hoping this software update might resolve the drum fill issue as well as the controller compatability.

If your lag setup is 0ms, then this does sound like a processing delay. Otherwise, this may simply be you actually hearing the lag in your setup, which cannot be calibrated out.

[CPB]

Setup:

PS3 40GB recently purchased
Rock Band Special Edition from launch stock at local store
52PFL7422D/37 - 52" LCD HDTV
connection from PS3 to TV is via HDMI
DD is off in game, from the main ps3 console, and in the TV

I still have the mic lag.. have not noticed the drum lag but that's probably because I haven't looked too closely at it. I've had to reduce the volume of the mic as low as it will go.

I've also had to calibrate my system at around 70ms lag, and -10ms offset (this is with the calibration tool)

The game is playable.. guitar is okay, drums are okay, mic volume turned off is bearable. HOWEVER, when I've set my lag calibrations, certain songs crowd noise is OFF BEAT!

The biggest culprits are the songs with crowds clapping along such as Don't Fear the Reaper and Paranoid (Black Sabbath) - it KILLS me when the crowd is offbeat and I guess the only way to get rid of this is to turn of crowd noise but it really bothers me to have to dumb down multiple parts of this game to get just the audio to work correctly. If the Lag compensation successfully shifted the audio track and the notes track, WHY can't it sync up the crowd noise? Anyone else noticed this? if not, please go check if you have a high lag calibration.

[JohnnyB]

Just piling on to the group. I only do vocals and I only recently figured out that there was a delay from singing in time to the original singer and what the arrow would meet up with on the pitch bar.

I don't really care about the "other" mic lag of my own voice to the speakers, since my friends can hear me fine if I just turn down the mic volume anyway, but the lag where the arrow is always late if i'm singing in time with the original singer is a huge thing now. At home on Solo it's not such a problem, after changing my settings from the default of 60ms on the first page, and 25ms on the second page using the Plasma TV setting, I've changed my settings to now be 100ms on the first page, and -99ms on the second page, and changing that I'm now acing songs with 4 and 5 stars that I could only get 3 stars before the fix.

The BIG problem for me now is that I can't make those same delay settings when I'm playing in my band because those settings are WAY off for everyone else. Here's hoping the mic audio processing delay is fixed soon! Seems to me if they just move the pitch bar back a half second for just the singer, or create a separate calibration for singers to the other instruments we'd be golden. *crosses fingers*

[Mistersh0w]

I'm starting to get the feeling we've been misled... Does it seriously take this long to properly word the statement that they basically can't fix it? I'm assuming since it's taking so long for an update on the issue, that they just can't fix it.... I mean, lets face it, if there was a fix, don't you think they'd come out and say something to the effect of: "Hey loyal consumers! We've not yet found a solution to the lag problem, but we're close! I don't want to leave you all hanging with that juicy morsel so we'll leave you with this, the problem CAN BE FIXED! Just be patient and we'll update you all as soon as we can!"

Instead we're holding on to the hope that this issue will be resolved, and we'll finally have a fully functioning video game! As it stands, my guitar and drums are in the mail heading towards EA, I am now the proud owner of a non-working game...

[Bakkster]

I mean, lets face it, if there was a fix, don't you think they'd come out and say something to the effect of: "Hey loyal consumers! We've not yet found a solution to the lag problem, but we're close! I don't want to leave you all hanging with that juicy morsel so we'll leave you with this, the problem CAN BE FIXED! Just be patient and we'll update you all as soon as we can!"

They said they were looking into it. That means, they're determining what the causes of the problem are, and if/how they can fix it. If they can, they will tell us. If they can't they will tell us. They're not going to come into the thread every day just to say "We're still looking at it". This is also not the only problem they are looking at.

If you look at the threads about the PS3 compatibility patch, you will see that HMX is getting tired of being badgered about updates. So is the rest of the forum. Their policy has been "We'll tell you when we have something useful to tell you", and they will.

[WannaRock]

Bakkster, you are missing the point. They are not our friends next door to whom we should cut extra slack. We should not feel that they are entitled to being tired of hearing from inquisitive and unhappy customers. This is a company that, along with EA and Harmonix's parent company, MTV, are making many millions of dollars from consumers. As such, they should conduct themselves professionally and treat their consumers with respect. Part of that respect should include regular (daily) updates about how major problems are being handled. All that results from them remaining silent is growing uncertainty and frustration in their user community. In this online world of blogs and forums like this one, there's no excuse for not having the resources to type a couple of paragraphs each day.

[Mistersh0w]

Bakkster, you are missing the point. They are not our friends next door to whom we should cut extra slack. We should not feel that they are entitled to being tired of hearing from inquisitive and unhappy customers. This is a company that, along with EA and Harmonix's parent company, MTV, are making many millions of dollars from consumers. As such, they should conduct themselves professionally and treat their consumers with respect. Part of that respect should include regular (daily) updates about how major problems are being handled. All that results from them remaining silent is growing uncertainty and frustration in their user community. In this online world of blogs and forums like this one, there's no excuse for not having the resources to type a couple of paragraphs each day.

That's all i'm asking for! HMX had a weekly rock blog in the Announcements forum that kept people up to date on all things RB, why can't they have a weekly TROUBLESHOOTING blog, or UPDATE blog!? I know that these issues are not fixed right away, and I have a growing fear that some may not be fixed at all, but the point is, it's been 2 weeks since we've heard anything about this issue, and I know there are other things that require fixing as well, but this is starting to get angering...

With that said, we have a NON WORKING game here that NEEDS to be fixed! I love HMX, and RB, but they made a mistake by selling this game early, plain and simple. It was just NOT ready for MASS consumer distribution. I'm happy we all have it now, but I would have been JUST as happy to have waited even another YEAR to have a fully working game with EXCEPTIONAL game peripherals, and 100% working game features... At this point, it's completely unacceptable, and unprofessional to keep us wondering what the outcome will be for our $170 dollar non-working game...

[spblat]

I would have been JUST as happy to have waited even another YEAR to have a fully working game with EXCEPTIONAL game peripherals, and 100% working game features...
You could have waited. Return the game and wait a year, at which time I'm pretty sure exceptional controllers will be available.

No? I can't wait that long either. Flawed as it is, I'm playing the game daily, loving it, and waiting urgently for an update. I too agree with Wannarock.

[piratepwnsninja]

You could have waited. Return the game and wait a year, at which time I'm pretty sure exceptional controllers will be available.

No? I can't wait that long either. Flawed as it is, I'm playing the game daily, loving it, and waiting urgently for an update. I too agree with Wannarock.

It isn't his fault they released the game with it has issues. I want to agree though, that I am loving what I am able to play.

[AbsenceOfTruth]

I'm having the same problems as well. The microphone is almost unplayable because you hear your voice lag so badly. Harmonix please fix this!

PS3 60GB
50in Plasma Display
5.1 Dolby Digital Surround Sound
HDMI Input

[bkwhitney]

No, you are right. There is a minimum amount of communication involved that we are expecting and aren't getting. It is like last week's ER. You keep people in the waiting room in the dark too long, we start to get agitated and freak out. Just a weekly update and all this complaining goes away. It lets us know it is a priority for them.

If they fix this patch, this is the greatest game I've ever played. Let's hope they make communication more of a priority.

[Mistersh0w]

No, you are right. There is a minimum amount of communication involved that we are expecting and aren't getting. It is like last week's ER. You keep people in the waiting room in the dark too long, we start to get agitated and freak out. Just a weekly update and all this complaining goes away. It lets us know it is a priority for them.

If they fix this patch, this is the greatest game I've ever played. Let's hope they make communication more of a priority.

I absolutely agree. This game has so much potential, and it sucks that there are many with this, and a plethora of problems, and others that don't have any problems at all, and have a 100% working game! I'm starting to think the latter is the minority... Please HMX, just give us a MORSEL of hope here...

[shinjibaka]

I've got a westinghouse 42" LCD, HDMI from a PS3 directly to the TV, TV speakers. DD is off all around.

I have a really weird problem where the lag varies each time I boot the game. Sometimes I have to put the A/V sync at 300ms, sometimes I can put it as low as 50ms (probably about what my TV actually introduces). I can usually get it calibrated well enough I can play it (although when I have a high A/V offset it obviously messes up the drum fills and mic sync), but it's a pain the butt having to redo it every time. I'm wondering if anybody else has a problem like this.

[unwin]

I've got a westinghouse 42" LCD, HDMI from a PS3 directly to the TV, TV speakers. DD is off all around.

I have a really weird problem where the lag varies each time I boot the game. Sometimes I have to put the A/V sync at 300ms, sometimes I can put it as low as 50ms (probably about what my TV actually introduces). I can usually get it calibrated well enough I can play it (although when I have a high A/V offset it obviously messes up the drum fills and mic sync), but it's a pain the butt having to redo it every time. I'm wondering if anybody else has a problem like this.

this is no surprise. westinghouse is a very poorly made tv. basically the bestbuy brand. at least you saved money on the television right?

[B18C5 Tom]

This many people can't be wrong...

I've got the 360 version, on a 360 Elite and/or Premium (have two) and the laggy isues happen on both. Also noteworthy is that a pal of mine has the same problem on his PS3 version, so this isn't a hardware/console problem, it's the game itself.

First of all I have a 50'' Samsung DLP TVand with the "DLP" setting turned on all instruments (except for mic) can be played on expert with no problems in terms of hitting notes in time with the music tracks and also when the notespass the bar at the bottom of the screen. My problems with the game occur whether I'm going straight out of the TV or if I turn on my Sony mini shelf system and play the audio through it - exact same problems either way, so it isn't my audio system.

The problems also happen with a CRT 36'' Sony Wega, so uh-oh - seems like a game/software issue!!!

In-game Dolby turned off, and all sound processing features for TV and stereo are off too when these problems still arise.

The issue I'm having is the same issue these 10 pages of people are having:

THE DRUMS FILLS ARE DELAYED AND THE VOCALS MUST BE SANG A SPLIT SECOND EARLY ON HARD AND EXPERT DIFFICULTIES

I happen to be a singer in real life, AND a drummer so it's not a timing issue of any kind. I can be "in the pocket" playing drums on expert and as soon as a fill comes I can play it "in time" and have trouble re-finding the beat due to the crappy lag the live drum fill input has coming through the speakers. I can completely ignore the fills and keep the time by clicking the sticks and I NEVER miss a beat that way, but any kind of fills must be played, hit the green pad and then JUMP back into the beat "early" as to not lose a hit right when coming out of the drum fills.

When singing I've had to turn the vocal/mic volume completely OFF as to not be super annoying because of how delayed it is coming outof the speakers. As someone else pointed out the precision in which the game wants us to sing at had and expert levels in terms of timing makes it very hard for even professionals to get good scores dueto the laggy input from the mic. I was able to get 100% and 99% on songs that I can sing perfectly well in REAL LIFE by singing a goo half beat EARLY, which IMO takes WAY more skill than singing with the actual music tracks.

The guitar and bass have none of these issues because there's no "live" sound coming from them during gameplay. You always hear the music track itself, and if the drums had no fills I suspect none of us would ever complain about them either.

These issues combined with what seems to be weak hardware are starting to anger me. I paid $180.00 (with tax) for the game and not only am I dealing with the laggy mic/drum fills issues, but now my guitar strum bar only works in the "up" position, and my drum pedal cracked on both sides.

I've done the "we'll charge your credit card $125.00 until you send your old guitar back within 28 days" thing tonight, so hopefully my next guitar will last longer than 2 weeks.

The drum pedal was an "easy fix" so far as I purchased some plastic half circle "sliders" intended to stick onto the bottom on furniture to allow it to slide on carpeted surfaces easier. It's got souble sided tape on one side, and I've placed it halfway under the pedal as to brace the pedal when fully depressed to that the only support is coming from the rubber stoppers on the very END of the pedal. I suggest everyone buy something similiar and brace your pedal before it cracks.

I'm a 28 year old man who knows how to take care of video games, and most things in general, so it's not abuse that caused the pedal breakage or the guitar breakage. Honestly my wife and I use the old Guitar Hero II guitar more because of it's much more positive feeling strum bar, so it's funny that the Rock Band one should stop working so soon.

I wouldn't mind e-mailing the powers that be about the laggy drum fills and mic input, but honestly I think we're being ignored. We're on the "official Rock Band" message board and we've gotten 10 pages of complaints without a single peep from anyone official yet regarding these issues.

I've also realized through every other title that involves EA in any way that problems happen, are discussed by consumers, and EA does nothing. Happens all the time wit their 360 titles with game breaking crashes, crappy networks, key features missing that previous gen systems still have, etc.

I absolutely love this game being such a huge music fan and singer/drummer, but the flaws that kep a drummer from staying in the pocket during fills and singers from singing as good as they can in real life in terms of timing ar starting to annoy me beyond consolation.

WHAT ARE YO GOING TO DO HARMONIX/MTV/EA WHOMEVER CAN FIX THIS?!?!?!?

[Mistersh0w]

...I wouldn't mind e-mailing the powers that be about the laggy drum fills and mic input, but honestly I think we're being ignored. We're on the "official Rock Band" message board and we've gotten 10 pages of complaints without a single peep from anyone official yet regarding these issues...

I called HMX the monday after launch week, told them EVERYTHING about this lag problem, and the guy on the phone took down ALL information and told me I would receive an email once they found out what the problem was... So far, not a peep from that at all...

[creid]

I wouldn't mind e-mailing the powers that be about the laggy drum fills and mic input, but honestly I think we're being ignored. We're on the "official Rock Band" message board and we've gotten 10 pages of complaints without a single peep from anyone official yet regarding these issues.
The whole point of this thread is to post information to help Harmonix find the source of, and fix the problem. Posting your info couldn't hurt.

[dagware]

No, you are right. There is a minimum amount of communication involved that we are expecting and aren't getting. It is like last week's ER. You keep people in the waiting room in the dark too long, we start to get agitated and freak out. Just a weekly update and all this complaining goes away. It lets us know it is a priority for them.

Great analogy, and so true. The longer we go without communication, the antsier we get. Then we (myself included) start going off the deep end! Managing expectations is key to good customer relations.

Dan

[inkpenexor]

Hello, I just purchased the game set up on 12-8-07. I am experiencing the lag problem with drums and mic.
my set up is as follows
PS3 60GB current firmware.
Toshiba rear projections HDTV connected using HDMI from PS3
audio connected using optical out from PS3 into Sony audio rcvr.
thanks

[Kincade]

I haven't read every post, only the first three and last pages. I've seen a handful of people what I believe to be the problem.

First off, my lag is GREATLY reduced by going through the RCA out versus Optical, but that's because I have a craptastic receiver/sound system (only $275), I get lag on regular TV. I'm also on a BenQ DLP projector. Using Optical out, I have to set the audio lag to be around 200ms (that's the calibration where you move the tick mark so that the line passes over the tick mark at the same time as the clicking sound). Using RCA brings me to no more than 15ms audio lag. But, this is a pain in the butt; anytime I play rockband, I have to change the audio out of the PS3 and the receiver to analog, then switch it back for anything else (so I get surround sound).

I personally believe the reason is because Rock Band is delaying ALL sound, whether it's generated by NOT silencing the track (how the majority of the game is played) or if it's generated "live" (during fills and singing). If they could figure out how to delay the audio of recorded sound (thus syncing the audio to video) but play "live" sound immediately, it would fix it.

Try it for the fun of it. Go into calibration, move the tick mark all the way to the right, play a song with a long non-drum intro or sing, and you'll see that the drums are WAY off compared to if you put the tick mark in the center.

[Highlandlassie]

I haven't read every post, only the first three and last pages. I've seen a handful of people what I believe to be the problem.

First off, my lag is GREATLY reduced by going through the RCA out versus Optical, but that's because I have a craptastic receiver/sound system (only $275), I get lag on regular TV. I'm also on a BenQ DLP projector. Using Optical out, I have to set the audio lag to be around 200ms (that's the calibration where you move the tick mark so that the line passes over the tick mark at the same time as the clicking sound). Using RCA brings me to no more than 15ms audio lag. But, this is a pain in the butt; anytime I play rockband, I have to change the audio out of the PS3 and the receiver to analog, then switch it back for anything else (so I get surround sound).

I personally believe the reason is because Rock Band is delaying ALL sound, whether it's generated by NOT silencing the track (how the majority of the game is played) or if it's generated "live" (during fills and singing). If they could figure out how to delay the audio of recorded sound (thus syncing the audio to video) but play "live" sound immediately, it would fix it.

Try it for the fun of it. Go into calibration, move the tick mark all the way to the right, play a song with a long non-drum intro or sing, and you'll see that the drums are WAY off compared to if you put the tick mark in the center.


Turning off Dolby digital sound in Rockband is a crime.
It is NOT an option.
Dolby digital surround sound makes this game come alive in a BIG way.
I really feel sorry for anyone playing this game through TV speakers, or even in just plain stereo.
Rockband is music.
Music demands the best reproduction available.
In my house that means Dolby digital.
We just turn the mic volume all the way down until they FIX THIS TERRIBLE PROBLEM, NOT JUST GIVE SUGESSTIONS THAT HURT THE MUSIC!!!

[Mistersh0w]

...FIX THIS TERRIBLE PROBLEM, NOT JUST GIVE SUGESSTIONS THAT HURT THE MUSIC!!!

AMEN! What's the deal HMX? Please just let us know if this problem is fixable or not!

[DeusTrinitas]

I, too, can confirm that it doesn't have anything to do with the system setup. I've played with setting for hours and hours and the bottom line is that the game does not process vocal input fast enough.

It's not about mic lag that you hear over your speakers--that is a separate issue. What I am talking about is the fact that the game doesn't process the vocal input quickly enough for the arrow to hit the beginning of the bar when you are singing along with the original lead vocalist. The only way to 5-star songs on expert is to intentionally begin singing before the singer in the original track so that you can get points for the full lengths of the bars.

Now, let's get this fixed, please, Harmonix! :)

[Chris Field]

Xbox Pro (Sept. 07 purchase date) through HDMI to
Toshiba 57HM167 DLP to
Sony DAV-HDZ235 Home Theater in a Box

Don't know if I have any drum fill lag as I suck at the drums anyway, but the mic is horrible. Its gotta be at least 1/2 a second of lag. I have DD turned on all across the board (game/console/receiver). I don't really want to turn the DD off, cause I shouldn't have to. In-game calibration is set on "DLP TV." I hope a fix is found soon.

[LordFlatus]

I thought I knew how my AV setup was set up, and I had horrible mic lag. Then I was going through all the settings on my receiver, and lo and behold I somehow had a 60 msec delay set for the console audio input. Duh.....

I set the receiver delay for the console audio source to 9 msec and voila (practically) no mic lag at all. :)

It was horrible to the point of making singing almost impossible, and now it is fine. Check your settings, especially if you are like me and think you know what you are doing.

[B18C5 Tom]

I thought I knew how my AV setup was set up, and I had horrible mic lag. Then I was going through all the settings on my receiver, and lo and behold I somehow had a 60 msec delay set for the console audio input. Duh.....

I set the receiver delay for the console audio source to 9 msec and voila (practically) no mic lag at all. :)

It was horrible to the point of making singing almost impossible, and now it is fine. Check your settings, especially if you are like me and think you know what you are doing.

Try singing with your current set-up while someone else tries drums and.or guitars/bass.

The issues seems to be that once you get timing dead-on for one instrument, another or two are of time.

Any time I got my drum fills to be more in-time the guitar and bass were unplayable with the music itself.

I hope a patch is worked out to fix this...soon.

[Jmca1]

My system is as follows

Xbox 360 Elite hooked up via 2m HDMI to my Sharp Aquos 37" D40 1080p LCD. If I calibrate so the guitar no longer lags, the drum kit is wildly off (after calibrating the guitar to 30ms of delay, and recalibrating the drums, the drums wound up at 80ms!)

I have not tried the vocals yet, as I picked it up this evening, and work comes early tomorrow morning.

I am rather disappointed that i have spent this much money, and it already needs a patch to be usable. Right now, I would kill for the patch for this.

[jrmedia]

Hey,
can anyone please tell me if the Lag issue is fixable. I have a regular xbox 360 and no sound system at all! I have a Samsung LN-S2641D model TV (its an LCD). I've used the game mode, i've calibrated the hell out of the system. I found that the AV calibration is really good on 65 ms for regular play but when i do fills its just a mess. Is this at all fixable? I enjoy the game but this is a major flaw that needs to be addressed. Please help me out...I'll try any setting suggested. I beg of you all to lend a hand if possible. WOULD A PATCH BE ABLE TO FIX THIS PROBLEM. WHEN I HIT MY DRUMS I WANT TO HEAR THEM INSTANTLY, NOT A HALF A SECOND LATER. Thanks. JIM

PLEASE IM ME ON AOL IM IF YOU CAN HELP

JRmediaNJ on AOL IM...thanks

[Dystocia]

Hey,
can anyone please tell me if the Lag issue is fixable. I have a regular xbox 360 and no sound system at all! I have a Samsung LN-S2641D model TV (its an LCD). I've used the game mode, i've calibrated the hell out of the system. I found that the AV calibration is really good on 65 ms for regular play but when i do fills its just a mess. Is this at all fixable? I enjoy the game but this is a major flaw that needs to be addressed. Please help me out...I'll try any setting suggested. I beg of you all to lend a hand if possible. WOULD A PATCH BE ABLE TO FIX THIS PROBLEM. WHEN I HIT MY DRUMS I WANT TO HEAR THEM INSTANTLY, NOT A HALF A SECOND LATER. Thanks. JIM

PLEASE IM ME ON AOL IM IF YOU CAN HELP

JRmediaNJ on AOL IM...thanks

Your problem, unfortunately, is the exact issue discussed in this thread. There have been some well-meaning suggestions (most involve disconnecting the majority of your A/V set-up until you're running with analog wires straight into an old TV that you must presumably go out and buy on Craigslist), but nothing practical yet.

Hopefully, we'll hear something from Harmonix about this soon, as it really has been a long while since this thread was updated by them.

[jrmedia]

I feel somewhat bamboozeld by harmonix. I wonder if they have any idea if this problem is fixable. I wish they'd give us some morsel of hope. Is there anything at all I can do in my settings? Anything?

[PHiNiX]

i honestly think stereo sounds better without dolby digital

maybe that because my system is pure sex

[jrmedia]

I'm actually a solid drummer in real life and there is nothing more frustrating then having a delay on your kit. How is anyone supposed to do a fill and come back into a beat when your drums are a half second off time? Did Harmonix not test the game? Its beyond clear to me that they just didn't care and released the game flawed....not cool, not cool at all. Rock Band needs to address this by either sending me a new copy of the game if it can't be patched. this is utterly rediculous.

The delay on the mic is even worse....so much potential, i would've waited an extra 6 months for this to be perfect.

[LongDarkBlues]

I just wanted to add my voice to the sea of posters here.

I have a 360 running the audio analog through a great late 80s Kenwood tube amp and, hooked up to a 1080p LCD, the drums and guitar (back when they worked) synced up perfectly with the default LCD lag setting. The vocals from the mic are almost a half beat off - not too noticeable when singing on Medium, but the spoken/rapped parts are clearly way off.

I've done a decent amount of studio recording of vocals in my time, and I can do Sabotage on the beat pretty much perfectly in real life, but get Messy in the game unless I intentionally try to push it about 2 words early from the line. It's awkward to be so off from the vocal track, but it gets you through the song. Carefully observing others do it - Flirtin With Disaster is a great test - it's the same thing for them - if they are real early they can get Strong and Perfect, but the minute they sync up with the beat or the master track, it's all Messy and Weak.

This is clearly a software problem.

[LongDarkBlues]

Dolby digital surround sound makes this game come alive in a BIG way. I really feel sorry for anyone playing this game through TV speakers, or even in just plain stereo.
Also, and this is totally unrelated to the problem, but music is mixed to Stereo - surround sound fakes it and sounds terrible.

[DeusTrinitas]

I just wanted to add my voice to the sea of posters here.

I have a 360 running the audio analog through a great late 80s Kenwood tube amp and, hooked up to a 1080p LCD, the drums and guitar (back when they worked) synced up perfectly with the default LCD lag setting. The vocals from the mic are almost a half beat off - not too noticeable when singing on Medium, but the spoken/rapped parts are clearly way off.

I've done a decent amount of studio recording of vocals in my time, and I can do Sabotage on the beat pretty much perfectly in real life, but get Messy in the game unless I intentionally try to push it about 2 words early from the line. It's awkward to be so off from the vocal track, but it gets you through the song. Carefully observing others do it - Flirtin With Disaster is a great test - it's the same thing for them - if they are real early they can get Strong and Perfect, but the minute they sync up with the beat or the master track, it's all Messy and Weak.

This is clearly a software problem.

You've hit the nail on the head, friend. My sentiments exactly.

[vulgarmessiah]

please say something!

[Mistersh0w]

This is getting pretty ridiculous, we have a NON-WORKING GAME HERE!!!!! Maybe EA should throw a free game our way for waiting for this fix! I see no difference between waiting for a mic fix since DAY 1, and waiting for a guitar/drum fix since DAY 1!!! Anyone?

[b4squirrel]

Just adding my request for official aid in this matter. I'm using a Yamaha receiver, and turning off Dolby Digital is not a real option for me. Singing on expert is almost impossible on any song that as rapidly shifting pitches or talky parts... I failed Sabotage yesterday which was embarrassing. Don't Fear the Reaper is the only song I easily gold starred on expert since it has very subtle pitch changes.

Clearly there is a lag which I can try to compensate for, and that's often what I try to do... starting the pitch just prior to the words crossing the line. It's not a real solution. Please fix it!

[osirisbunnyfoofoo]

Does this happen to anyone else? Though it lags, it's not bad enough to be unplayable. But then, right before a tambourine/cowbell section, the screen blurs for just a millisecond. I just recently noticed this, and it does it EVERY time. After that tiny blur, the lag increases to the point of un-playability on hard and expert. Even after the section is over, the singing parts are as laggy as the tambourine part. So, though it sounds strange, that probably has something to do with the whole mic lag issue. I'm playing in HD on a 360, but that's about all I can tell you.

[rice4114]

Isnt that the name of forum? TECH SUPPORT? Talk about your oxy morons.

Again when I want to do some singing without horrible lag I simply put in any KARAOKE REVOLUTION game and it is right on time.

Im thinking maybe the Karaoke games dont understand the lag my audio system has (this is directed to you Bakkster) and for some reason they all just accidentally play perfectly on time.


Put gas A in your car and it sputters continously.
Put gas B in your car and it runs perfectly.
Seller of Gas A (HMX) suggests: "Sounds like you got a problem with your car!"

At least Bakkster is trying to help I suppose. I think this is a lost thread fellas. :mad::(:confused:

The singers at our rock band parties are done with this game. $170 drum/ guitar sim too bad.

[tricknology]

360 -> Onkyo Reciever via HDMI -> Panasonic Plasma via HDMI

I've tried everything in this thread and the delay still makes Rockband a lame experience.

Before I found this thread I actually sent for a replacement drum kit. Last night my guitar broke.

:confused:

[Highlandlassie]

The only way the game is playable with the mic, is to set the mic volume all the way down, and just sing loud.

This is not right ,

HARMONIX:

FIX THIS ISSUE NOW!

[Mistersh0w]

Well we're 3 weeks later, and 13 pages in to this thread and still no response... And yet hmxsean closed a couple threads already this morning!!! Can't you just pop into this thread and say "Hello friends, sorry for the extended silence, but we ARE still working on the problem and we're working as fast as we can to solve the problem"!!!!?!?!

This is seriously starting to piss me off! I am without drums and guitar as we speak, and it's getting annoying not being able to play the game I paid for, and with new DLC out today to boot!!

This is so frustrating, and angering to not hear a peep about this issue!!! What more can we do?! We're far past the notion of patience!

I read threads from angry community members on the PS3 GH3 compatibility issue, and how furious those people are, and it's for an issue that has almost NO IMPORTANCE!!! And HMX responds to those threads DAILY!!! This issue with the lag is AN ACTUAL PROBLEM THAT MAKES THE GAME UN-PLAY-ABLE!!!!!!

What do we have to do!? What can WE do!? Please HMX, how much longer to we have to beg and plead for an answer to this problem!?

[dagware]

Hmmm. I too really want HMX to respond. But the game is hardly unplayable, at least for drums and guitar (assuming they're not physically broken, of course). You should be able to sync up the guitar just fine, and the drums should be synced as well, except for the fills. When the fills come, just bang really fast on the snare -- if you do it fast enough, you won't hardly notice the lag. True, once you hit the ending cymbal, you have to get back in sync, but it's certainly doable.

As for the mic, turn off the mic volume.

So yes, it's getting pretty hard to believe HMX hasn't responded yet. But come on -- the game is hardly unplayable.

Dan

[Mistersh0w]

As for the mic, turn off the mic volume... ...But come on -- the game is hardly unplayable...

It's absolutely UNPLAYABLE! Simply turning the mic down just solves the issue of HEARING your vocals lagged through the speakers! The microphone LAG ACTUALLY CAUSES THE GAME TO RECEIVE YOUR VOCALS LATE, which causes the game to THINK you're singing OUT OF SYNC with the GAME, thereby causing you to lose points and therefore THE GAME IS NON-WORKING.

[LongDarkBlues]

It's true - beyond Medium's casual goofing-off singing, the vocal lag makes the vocal parts/campaign pretty much unplayable.

[okichi]

Please give us a fix, or tell me how I can get a refund.

[nhl2k]

It's absolutely UNPLAYABLE! Simply turning the mic down just solves the issue of HEARING your vocals lagged through the speakers! The microphone LAG ACTUALLY CAUSES THE GAME TO RECEIVE YOUR VOCALS LATE, which causes the game to THINK you're singing OUT OF SYNC with the GAME, thereby causing you to lose points and therefore THE GAME IS NON-WORKING.
This is absolutely correct. My wife and I have a deep background in music and we've been trying to sing on expert and have failed songs when we know we are hitting the pitches. It always happens on songs that have short and fast notes. I don't only think there's an issue because we've failed songs, but we can actually see the arrow show up after we start singing, and we can see it lag behind our pitch changes. There is no way we can fix this issue. The only thing I can think to do is remove my surround sound system from the equation and hopefully remove audio lag calibration settings, which may be the reason it's not processing the vocals right away, although I can't understand why. However, as people have mentioned, we should not have to cripple our experience because of this.
I realize there may be no way to fix the audio lag on freestyle sections like for singing and drum fills, because the game doesn't know what you're going to do to advance the audio so it syncs up. But the mic issue should be fixable and it needs to happen or singing is going to be terrible in this game.

UPDATE: I muted my surround sound system and played the audio through my TV which gives considerably less lag, and I am still having the same issue with singing. My wife and I both know In Bloom REALLY well, and we both almost failed trying to sing it on expert.

[ProgNegative]

For those who have an XBOX360, this could be your solution, worth trying for PS3 owners too:

I was having these problems on my system, then I tried it on my friend's system and somehow it took out the drum fill and vocal lag. His TV isn't exactly the same, but we both have rear projection HD and the only difference I noticed was that he was using the component video cables rather than HDMI, so I went back and hooked mine up with component cables instead and played all last night with no noticeable lag. I don't use an audio reciever, but I would suggest trying this and just plugging audio straight to the TV, seems HDMI takes longer to process than component cables. If this solution has already been stated somewhere in this thread I apologize, I didn't feel like reading every post.

[dagware]

Interesting comments. I hadn't really done much singing before with the game, mostly because I didn't know most of the songs. Now that I've played it for a while, I can't get most of the friggin' songs out of my head :p so I thought I'd try singing last night. I sang a bunch of songs on each of the difficulty settings. I'm a pretty good singer, and I did notice the problems mentioned above. I was pretty sure I was hitting most of the notes on time and on key, yet in Expert mode I barely kept from getting booed off the stage. So I think I understand the complaints you guys are talking about.

I'm not really sure what HMX can do about this, but it would be nice if they'd say *something*.

Dan

PS: So I still wouldn't say it's unplayable, but perhaps unsingable. :rolleyes:

[jrmedia]

For those who have an XBOX360, this could be your solution, worth trying for PS3 owners too:

I was having these problems on my system, then I tried it on my friend's system and somehow it took out the drum fill and vocal lag. His TV isn't exactly the same, but we both have rear projection HD and the only difference I noticed was that he was using the component video cables rather than HDMI, so I went back and hooked mine up with component cables instead and played all last night with no noticeable lag. I don't use an audio reciever, but I would suggest trying this and just plugging audio straight to the TV, seems HDMI takes longer to process than component cables. If this solution has already been stated somewhere in this thread I apologize, I didn't feel like reading every post.

This didn't work at all for me, thanks for trying though. MAJOR FLAW THAT ISN'T BEING ADDRESSED!!! Can someone from Harmonix please help us out? For real! What the F%#K?

[piratepwnsninja]

For those who have an XBOX360, this could be your solution, worth trying for PS3 owners too:

I was having these problems on my system, then I tried it on my friend's system and somehow it took out the drum fill and vocal lag. His TV isn't exactly the same, but we both have rear projection HD and the only difference I noticed was that he was using the component video cables rather than HDMI, so I went back and hooked mine up with component cables instead and played all last night with no noticeable lag. I don't use an audio reciever, but I would suggest trying this and just plugging audio straight to the TV, seems HDMI takes longer to process than component cables. If this solution has already been stated somewhere in this thread I apologize, I didn't feel like reading every post.

Turn it to expert and try the vocals. You're still going to see that you have to start singing early in order for the indicator to show that you are singing. This is not an equipment problem. This is a software issue.

As a note, I had mine hooked up via component for awhile and it had the issue from day 1. The problem is the time it is taking the game to recognize you are singing vs. when you actually do sing.

[Mistersh0w]

...PS: So I still wouldn't say it's unplayable, but perhaps unsingable. :rolleyes:


Dagware, I appreciate you chiming in on this thread with your issues as well. Like I said before, there's a vast majority of us who have this problem, and it's going completely unresolved! And more and more people are coming out of the woodwork and posting on this thread about the issue... How many more people do you need to prove that this is a LARGELY WIDESPREAD ISSUE THAT NEEDS TO BE FIXED ASAP!?

Anyway, before I start getting angry again, let me reiterate my claim of the game being UNPLAYABLE with this issue:

I currently am without guitar OR drums, as they broke and are sitting in a warehouse somewhere in Michigan, awaiting repair/replacement. With that said, I'm left with the MIC ONLY. The fact that the game presents SO MUCH GD LAG makes the game UNPLAYABLE! Like I said before, when you sing into the mic, the GAME registers it LATE therefore causing you to sing OFF BEAT from the song, therefore making it IMPOSSIBLE to get any type of high scores on the HARD/EXPERT difficulties, no matter how PERFECT you sing. Therefore the game is UNPLAYABLE in the sense that you can't play in the HARD/EXPERT modes the way it was MEANT TO BE PLAYED. UNPLAYABLE.

PLEASE HMX!! FIX THIS PROBLEM!!!

[rice4114]

Dagware, I appreciate you chiming in on this thread with your issues as well. Like I said before, there's a vast majority of us who have this problem, and it's going completely unresolved! And more and more people are coming out of the woodwork and posting on this thread about the issue... How many more people do you need to prove that this is a LARGELY WIDESPREAD ISSUE THAT NEEDS TO BE FIXED ASAP!?

Anyway, before I start getting angry again, let me reiterate my claim of the game being UNPLAYABLE with this issue:

I currently am without guitar OR drums, as they broke and are sitting in a warehouse somewhere in Michigan, awaiting repair/replacement. With that said, I'm left with the MIC ONLY. The fact that the game presents SO MUCH GD LAG makes the game UNPLAYABLE! Like I said before, when you sing into the mic, the GAME registers it LATE therefore causing you to sing OFF BEAT from the song, therefore making it IMPOSSIBLE to get any type of high scores on the HARD/EXPERT difficulties, no matter how PERFECT you sing. Therefore the game is UNPLAYABLE in the sense that you can't play in the HARD/EXPERT modes the way it was MEANT TO BE PLAYED. UNPLAYABLE.

PLEASE HMX!! FIX THIS PROBLEM!!!


I will continue to start threads about this issue and I suggest you do the same.

[Highlandlassie]

For those who have an XBOX360, this could be your solution, worth trying for PS3 owners too:

I was having these problems on my system, then I tried it on my friend's system and somehow it took out the drum fill and vocal lag. His TV isn't exactly the same, but we both have rear projection HD and the only difference I noticed was that he was using the component video cables rather than HDMI, so I went back and hooked mine up with component cables instead and played all last night with no noticeable lag. I don't use an audio reciever, but I would suggest trying this and just plugging audio straight to the TV, seems HDMI takes longer to process than component cables. If this solution has already been stated somewhere in this thread I apologize, I didn't feel like reading every post.

Playing Rockband through the TV is like hearing a live concert through a little boom box, outside the concert venue in the parking lot.

It just is not the same, as a high end dolby digital setup.

Don't accept anything less, this game is about the music, let's get this issue figured out so the music is not compromised.

It's all about the music.

[Insignificant_Other]

Wow. I tried HMSXSean's suggestions and ran my analog audio straight to my sound system and turned off Dolby Digital in-game. What a difference! Almost zero lag now, and whereas before drum fills were so bad I avoided them completely, they are now awesome. Thanks for the advice - at least in my case it's looking good, though I really feel for those of you still having problems.

[piratepwnsninja]

Wow. I tried HMSXSean's suggestions and ran my analog audio straight to my sound system and turned off Dolby Digital in-game. What a difference! Almost zero lag now, and whereas before drum fills were so bad I avoided them completely, they are now awesome. Thanks for the advice - at least in my case it's looking good, though I really feel for those of you still having problems.

A) That is a lame fix. This is a game on a system billed as high-def capable, and that doesn't just mean pictures.

B) That fix does NOTHING for the vocal part of the game on hard or expert. The issue with the "open" areas of the game are that they are not pre-canned. This includes all vocals and drum fill sections. They are broken from an input standpoint any way this is looked at. Telling people to download their system is not acceptable.

[Rockula]

Well I figured I would chime in here also, since I've posted on other threads and got nothing.

I have a 57" Sony rear projection HDTV and a JVC 5.1 surround system. I'm running component cables to the TV and optical to the JVC receiver. There is noticeable lag on the mic and on the drums. The drums aren't as bad though, I can deal for now.

My biggest problem has been that the Calibration actually changes! during a song sometimes! What is that all about? I'll Calibrate it, works fine for a few songs, then I start noticing the beats aren't matching and I know it's not me. So I check the calibration and sure thing it's off considerably. I move the bar forward, play some more songs and have to adjust again, either forward or back. Seems random too, sometimes it's fine for many songs, sometimes it's not.

Anyway, I have Dolby turned off for now to see if the calibration stops changing on me, but it doesn't sound nearly as good as it does with DBS on. Anyone else have this calibration problem?

[Insignificant_Other]

A) That is a lame fix. This is a game on a system billed as high-def capable, and that doesn't just mean pictures.

B) That fix does NOTHING for the vocal part of the game on hard or expert. The issue with the "open" areas of the game are that they are not pre-canned. This includes all vocals and drum fill sections. They are broken from an input standpoint any way this is looked at. Telling people to download their system is not acceptable.

Who said anything about this being a "fix"? My point is that Sean's suggestions worked in my case, and I'm happy with them. (Actually, I wasn't trying to make a point at all - I just wanted to let Sean know that his suggestions helped at least one person, even if others are still having issues.) Is that a "fix"? No, but it's better than having crappy drum-fills, and all I had to do was try a couple simple suggestions. Sean said they are looking into how they can actually fix the problem, and offered helpful suggestions for improving the situation in the meantime. At no point did he say that this was *the* solution, and that they were done dealing with this (in fact he says the opposite).

And as far as the game being high-def in sound, at least in my case I haven't noticed any degradation of sound quality, so for me it was a no-brainer to make the changes.

I haven't tried the vocals since making changes. Maybe it will help, maybe it won't, but it certainly won't be worse than it was.

[piratepwnsninja]

Who said anything about this being a "fix"? My point is that Sean's suggestions worked in my case, and I'm happy with them. (Actually, I wasn't trying to make a point at all - I just wanted to let Sean know that his suggestions helped at least one person, even if others are still having issues.) Is that a "fix"? No, but it's better than having crappy drum-fills, and all I had to do was try a couple simple suggestions. Sean said they are looking into how they can actually fix the problem, and offered helpful suggestions for improving the situation in the meantime. At no point did he say that this was *the* solution, and that they were done dealing with this (in fact he says the opposite).

And as far as the game being high-def in sound, at least in my case I haven't noticed any degradation of sound quality, so for me it was a no-brainer to make the changes.

I haven't tried the vocals since making changes. Maybe it will help, maybe it won't, but it certainly won't be worse than it was.

Sorry for coming off as attacking you, it wasn't my intention. It's just been frustrating as a vocalist to have purchased this game with the vocal stuff being the main part I wanted to do and having it not work on difficultly levels I know I am able to play on due to a software issue. It just gets compounded when more people post having the same issue and yet Harmonix has given no update as to what is going on.

[hoff_57]

if anyone actually reads this far into the posts i think i have an answer for you.

when i used a preset the mic was laggin a LOT.

but then i started to tweak the lag on manual and kept gettin it wrong.

try to get the mic lag right and the drums and guitar will be right also.

i used it on 30ms off and the guitar& drums worked fine, but no go on the mic.

i kept goin up and stopped at 45 when the mic lag was almost none.
for some reason once i got the mic lag down i could play the guitar and drums a lot easier.

i think the problem is that you have a larger margin of rhythm error with the instruments over the mic. once you get the mic setup then you should actually be able to play the guitar better. at least that was in my case.

so everyone knows i replaced EVERYTHING except the mic and already beat the endless setlist w/ four people on expert.

its NOT WORTH IT lol.

hope this helped yall

[STLnCHI]

so everyone knows i replaced EVERYTHING except the mic and already beat the endless setlist w/ four people on expert.

its NOT WORTH IT lol.


what are u talking about? whats not worth it?

[dagware]

what are u talking about? whats not worth it?

I think he's saying it's not worth it to complete the endless set list.

[dagware]

Dagware, I appreciate you chiming in on this thread with your issues as well. Like I said before, there's a vast majority of us who have this problem, and it's going completely unresolved!

I hear you. Sorry, I just realized I made the kind of posts that drive me crazy when other people post them. Yes, your situation sucks, and yes, HMX really needs to do something about it.

The only reason I posted what I did was because I'm having a blast with the game in spite of the problems. But that doesn't mean they shouldn't fix the problems, and that also doesn't mean that other people aren't having more issues than I am.

Harmonix -- still no new comments on this? WTF?

Dan

[jrmedia]

Still no answers, not even a morsel of hope. I'm beyond pissed off right now. I want to do a ****ing drum fill on time! I don't want to hear anyones suggestions anymore. I've screwed with the mic lag for days....its semi-better. still can't do a fill on time. I'm just so bent out of shape over this. Fix the problem or take this enourmous piece of **** that is called rock band back! I want my ****ing money back. *******s

[Mistersh0w]

I hear you. Sorry, I just realized I made the kind of posts that drive me crazy when other people post them. Yes, your situation sucks, and yes, HMX really needs to do something about it.

The only reason I posted what I did was because I'm having a blast with the game in spite of the problems. But that doesn't mean they shouldn't fix the problems, and that also doesn't mean that other people aren't having more issues than I am.

Harmonix -- still no new comments on this? WTF?

Dan

Oh, I hope you don't think I was shooting your post down! I welcome any and ALL people to come here with their mic/drum lag problems! I was just thanking you for chiming in, and contributing. The more people we get here chiming in with their mic/drum problems, the better! We need to show HMX that this issue is going unresolved, and there's more and more people coming out to say so!

[Mistersh0w]

Still no answers, not even a morsel of hope. I'm beyond pissed off right now. I want to do a ****ing drum fill on time! I don't want to hear anyones suggestions anymore. I've screwed with the mic lag for days....its semi-better. still can't do a fill on time. I'm just so bent out of shape over this. Fix the problem or take this enourmous piece of **** that is called rock band back! I want my ****ing money back. *******s

While you've taken an extreme measure to express your distaste for HMX's silence, I feel the same way. We're being taken as fools and ignored like children! But what else can we do?

[DeusTrinitas]

My new post in the main forum (http://community.rockband.com/vbforum/showthread.php?t=16277):

HMXJohnlok,

I was wondering if you could please tell us how you were able to achieve a high enough score on vocals to be #2 on the Xbox Leaderboards, especially considering that the game suffers from a major software issue that produces substantial microphone lag due to vocal input not being processed quickly enough. This issue, by the way, is one that has yet to be officially addressed, though it has a stickied thread (http://community.rockband.com/vbforum/showthread.php?t=10861) with fifteen pages dedicated to it over in the tech support forum.

Perhaps if I didn't have to attempt to sing everything a half-second to one second early on Expert in order to get the full amount of points for each phrase, I might be able to achieve top ten glory as well and join your illustrious ranks. As it stands right now, I guess I'm forced to wait among Harmonix's legions of other fans for a patch to fix the problem. Such a patch would make a fine Christmas or pre-Christmas gift, don't you think?

[Jaacar]

While you've taken an extreme measure to express your distaste for HMX's silence, I feel the same way. We're being taken as fools and ignored like children! But what else can we do?

What you do is NOT purchase any other EA/Harmonix games. Without your support, the company will go away.

[dagware]

Oh, I hope you don't think I was shooting your post down!

No worries. I understood what you were saying. I did not feel shot at. :cool:

Dan

[audioeric]

360 Elite
Panasonic 61" LCD RPTV

hooked up via HDMI

Optical Audio to an Onkyo Receiver (SR674) (A/V Sync set to 0ms)

Drum fills and mic are both delayed.. Turning off Dolby helped, but as others have said, what's the point.. I'm running 7.2 surround sound, and the difference in quality is pretty decent.. So, turning it off sucks, but that's the only way to play.. Let's at least hear something..

It would actually be great to just turn the drum fills; some of them don't even make any sense and you can't just continue the beat you have to do something..

That being said, I'm loving this game.. Played last night for like 3 hours with 2 other friends and had an awesome gaming moment! However, the drum fills are really getting old...

eric

[Mistersh0w]

A HMX person from the boards posted this ridiculous statement in the main forum:



The high lag some people are experiencing is not inherent to the vocals system. It has to do with certain TV/Audio setups. The sticky exists to help people with those setups mitigate that problem, and is by means an issue that exists across the board.

And as for vocal tips... just keep practicing ;)



What do you guys think about this BS?

[BearFan51]

A HMX person from the boards posted this ridiculous statement in the main forum:





What do you guys think about this BS?

I think there's some merit to it. There are many different ways to hook up any given HT system. How many different combinations of receivers, tv's, etc. are there?

Each one of those different companies do things a little different, and it just might take some getting to know your equipment better to get this game usable for everyone.

I had to walk away from the game for a few days, before I actually sat down, read the instructions (how many left that little step out?) put a couple hours in tweeking the settings, and now it's near perfect.

With all the variables involved, it would be flat impossible to make this game, and the controllers plug and play out of the box. Give my suggestions a try, you just might stumble onto what's tripping your system up.

[LongDarkBlues]

If all of the instruments are displayed and played along with in time except the vocals, that's clearly software, not your A/V setup.

[piratepwnsninja]

A HMX person from the boards posted this ridiculous statement in the main forum:





What do you guys think about this BS?

I think that they aren't listening to the real issue. I don't care what system it gets tried on with the vocals, but there is a delay in the voice through the mic getting processed in the 360. That has nothing to do with my setup. I am not talking about echo-lag from the speakers, as I have the vocal output turned all the way down because that lag was obnoxious too. THAT might has something to do with the A/V system. Me having to sing early in order for the vocals to register on time is not.

[jrmedia]

Private Message: Re: Any hope?
Today, 02:01 AM
hmxsean
Harmonix Developer Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 763

Re: Any hope?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Quote:
Originally Posted by jrmedia
Sean,
Is there any hope that i'll be able to do fills with no lag? I've tried everything i can think of. when i hit the pad it takes a half second to register. Is this even fixable? thanks

RESPONSE!

We are definitely looking into this and trying to find what causes the issue. Hopefully will have more info for you in the future.

THIS PROVES THAT THERE IS A MAJOR ISSUE AND THAT THEY RECOGNIZE IT!

[Mistersh0w]

I think that they aren't listening to the real issue. I don't care what system it gets tried on with the vocals, but there is a delay in the voice through the mic getting processed in the 360. That has nothing to do with my setup. I am not talking about echo-lag from the speakers, as I have the vocal output turned all the way down because that lag was obnoxious too. THAT might has something to do with the A/V system. Me having to sing early in order for the vocals to register on time is not.

I think we need to start posting in this thread: Click Here (http://community.rockband.com/vbforum/showthread.php?t=16277)

They all seem to have dismissed the fact that this problem is software related. It would help a lot if everyone would help me out in there with explaining why it is... They seem to think they have the problem down, and I don't think their "solutions" are true...

[DaveNagy]

What do you guys think about this BS?

I think that's probably accurate in the large majority of cases. The only problem I've heard described in this thread that probably couldn't be caused by the lag introduced by our A/V components, is the issue where the drum fills are perfect, but the vocals are delayed. That sounds like an issue with the mic or the USB signal path or maybe even the software. Virtually everything else can (I believe) be explained by "slow" TVs or slow/misconfigured audio setups.

HDTVs often introduce lag. It's common. This isn't news. Rock Band can't magically "speed up" your TV, so the only thing it can do is delay everything else to match. The two things it can delay are: the audio, and the guitar/drum "inputs". (It can also delay the video, but there's rarely a reason to do so.) Ideally, you would never want to delay any of those things. Because it only creates more problems. But, you are kind of forced to, because the TV can't be fixed. (Outside of the "Game" settings that some TVs have. But even those may only reduce the lag.)

So, here's how RB does what it does: When you set the A/V Delay, (I forget what it's called, exactly. You know, the first lag adjustment you come to.) you are either delaying the video to match the audio, or (much more likely) you are delaying the audio to match what you are seeing on your (slow) TV. I repeat, you are likely delaying the audio. This is not ideal. Also, the game still doesn't know just how slow your TV actually is. It just knows how much slower it is than your audio.

Then you move to the second lag adjustment. This one gives you an audio and video queue, and asks you to tap some controller in rhythm. Assuming that the human can click with perfect precision, the game can then measure how slow your video really is. (And because you've already delayed your audio to match, it knows that your audio is equally slow.) It also can measure if the controller inputs themselves are delayed, although you would hope that they aren't.

So, let's assume that went perfectly. The video and audio is now perfectly synced (but at least one is delayed), and the game knows exactly how delayed they are. Let's pretend that the delay is 100ms. You start playing the drums...

Hey, everything is working perfectly! If you smack the drum in rhythm with the music, it will register as 'correct'. By the same token, if you smack the drum purely by watching the chart, things work equally well. This magic happens because the game knows that your reaction will be (in this case) 100ms late. From the game's perspective every frick'n note you play is horribly behind the beat, but it cuts you a precisely measured chunk of slack, because it knows you are getting the music and chart late as well. (You may notice that when you do miss a note, you will hear the very beginning of it, before it gets muted and the flub noise plays. That's because the game has to assume that you will hit the note, and doesn't find out that you didn't until 100ms later.) Nothing that you do will be instantly reflected in either the video or the audio. How could it be? That video/audio was sent out before you even had a chance to see/hear it.

This why the following assertion from the first page of this thread is dead wrong:


The fact that when you are playing the regular guitar tracks or the regular drum tracks the audio perfectly matches what are you physically playing on your guitar or drum set proves that there is also no audio latency associated with your stereo.
It says nothing about the amount of audio/video latency in your system, it just illustrates that the calibration system can hide those latencies pretty well most of the time.

So, what happens when a drum fill comes up? It will sound delayed. Why? Perhaps because it is delayed. By 100ms. On purpose.

Wait. So why doesn't the game choose not to delay the drum noises during fills? Just send those noises out immediately for God's sake! I... I don't know. I hope it does do that. You don't care if drum fill audio and video aren't synced, after all. Drum fills really don't have any video associated with them, other than that big empty space in the chart. I'm going to give HMX the benefit of the doubt here and assume that they are doing this very thing.

So, what could cause these delayed drums?

1) Maybe the game delay is still "on". I don't see why it would be, but who knows...
2) Maybe there's a delay in the drums/cable itself. Seems unlikely.
3) Maybe your audio system is introducing the delay itself.

That last choice seems the most plausible. But why would your audio system introduce a delay? This ain't high res video that needs to be scaled, it's just audio for heaven's sake! I can think of three possible reasons:

1) The user has intentionally turned on a "lip sync" delay. Why? Because of their slow TV, of course. That's what that feature is for. To delay the audio long enough for the picture to catch up. If you're watching a movie, you don't notice that everything is delayed. You're just happy that everything is synced.
2) The audio is just "naturally" slow. Maybe because of Dolby Digital processing, maybe because of something else. This seems a bit unlikely, because it would bother the heck out of people with "fast" TVs.
3) The user has turned on inter-speaker delay. This is another handy feature that allows you to adjust the sound to account for how far each speaker is from the sweet spot. Usually this adjustment is only 1-10ms, however, so I don't think it would be very noticeable.

In this case, the first option sounds the most likely. The second is also possible, however.

So, that's my thinking. This could be bad programming or flaky controllers, but it's still possible that it's due to our gear. I'm getting delayed drum fills myself, so I'm about to go downstairs and check all the settings on my TV and stereo.

[Mistersh0w]

Awesome post DaveNagy! You should definitely post this info in the thread I linked to before your post... I'm having a hard time convincing those guys of these issues, as they all believe that it's an extremely low number of people with this issue... I could really use your guys' help... I'm also finding that they refuse to read through here and inform themselves on all the "fixes" that have been tried and failed here for most... It's getting frustrating having to repeat the old methods from back when there was hope...

[DaveNagy]

Maybe you could just link my post into that thread? I really hate to cross-post, especially since I'm just making this stuff up. :)

My wife and I fiddled around with the various settings, and I think I've improved the delay on the drum fills quite a lot, but they are still a bit off. Here's what I did:

I checked to see if my TV (an HP DLP rear projector) had a "game mode". It didn't. So I made sure I wasn't scaling, and I made sure any noise-reduction or other fanciness was turned off. All of it was.

I then checked my receiver for any delay settings. I didn't find any. I'm a little suspicious of this finding, since that's getting to be a pretty common feature these days. I'll try to hunt up the manual and double check that I didn't just miss it. I did have my speaker distances set, and my subwoofer is about 10 feet further away than the rest of the speakers. That means that all my speakers (except for the sub) are delayed a slight bit (10ms?), so the sound from the sub can reach my ears at the same time. So, that might be causing a little extra bit of lag, but I think I'm hearing about 40ms's worth.

I then went in and re-did the RB calibration. I left the A/V delay at 0ms. Things looked about right at that setting. I'm not super fussy about how the chart looks; both of us play mostly by ear. So, I let the sound come through with no delay, even if that meant the video "looked" a little slow.

I then set that second latency setting to zero as well. Hey, it was worth a shot.

I played some fills and such during some song intros, and it was pretty close to being lag free. Not totally, but it was pretty close. I then had my wife play a tune. (She's the drummer of the house.) Alas, she said that she had to play slightly ahead of the (audible) beat, in order to nail the notes. I stuck my head down by the pads and listened. Yeah, her sticks were hitting slightly before those in the recording. So, back to the drawing board. We dialed the latency setting up to 20ms. Better, but she still had to play on the "front part" of the notes. At 30ms, she was pretty dialed in, but she still felt like it was not quite right. We went to 35ms, and that seemed "good enough". I then plugged in the guitar (bass), and was happy to find that it played better than ever.

So, it would appear that there is about 35-40ms of delay in between hitting a drum, and hearing it. Less than one twentieth of a second, but sadly, still enough to easily notice. My receiver might be (intentionally) contributing almost 10ms of that, and I guess the speed of sound is adding another 5ms or so. (It takes about that long for the sound to leave my speakers and get to our ears.)

That leaves 20 to 25ms of lag to explain. My receiver might be adding a bit more, since it uses digital amplifiers. Perhaps they add some latency? Other places lag could creep in are:

In the drum sensors and electronics
In the USB transmitters, receivers, and hub
In the software
In the 360's digital audio out circuitry

I could try using the analog stereo outputs on the Xbox, and I could plug the drums into the console directly, but that's about it. Everything else is out of my hands. And frankly, neither of those changes sounds very appealing. Tomorrow I'll take another crack at tweaking my receiver.

[jrmedia]

Dag...heres the thing:

When i hit my drum pad it doesn't register simulatenously. That has nothing to do with a/v settings. It has nothing to do with hearing anything late......mute your tv and hit the pad and watch the icon light up..its off. Its a processing issue. Somewhere in between the drum pad and the system theres an issue. Maybe the wiring is wrong, maybe the processor takes time to convert the hit into a snare sample. they made some mistakes. its obvious...

I personally appreciate your time and i'll try your exact setting is you'd post them but i don't think its fixable.

[Mistersh0w]

Dag...heres the thing:

When i hit my drum pad it doesn't register simulatenously. That has nothing to do with a/v settings. It has nothing to do with hearing anything late......mute your tv and hit the pad and watch the icon light up..its off. Its a processing issue. Somewhere in between the drum pad and the system theres an issue. Maybe the wiring is wrong, maybe the processor takes time to convert the hit into a snare sample. they made some mistakes. its obvious...

I personally appreciate your time and i'll try your exact setting is you'd post them but i don't think its fixable.

I hope there's a fix cause i'm on my last legs with this crap... HMXjohnlok wasn't any help either...

[DaveNagy]

Dag...heres the thing:

When i hit my drum pad it doesn't register simulatenously. That has nothing to do with a/v settings. It has nothing to do with hearing anything late......mute your tv and hit the pad and watch the icon light up..its off. Its a processing issue. Somewhere in between the drum pad and the system theres an issue. Maybe the wiring is wrong, maybe the processor takes time to convert the hit into a snare sample. they made some mistakes. its obvious...

I personally appreciate your time and i'll try your exact setting is you'd post them but i don't think its fixable.

I think there might be some confusion here. Yes, the delay is certainly due to "processing", but we can't leap to the conclusion that this (slow) processing happens before your A/V equipment gets involved. A/V components do often introduce lag, and the result of that lag, even after you calibrate it "out", is exactly what you describe: You hit a note, but you don't see or hear it until a short time later.

You are correct that the source of the delay could theoretically be in the drums themselves, or it could be in the console or the software. A problem there would "look" the same as a delay in your TV or audio receiver. But if that were the case, everybody would be seeing similar symptoms, since everybody is running the same game, on the same console(s), with the same controllers. Since different people are getting different lag, it's only common sense to suspect the problem lies in the parts of the system that vary from person to person. In other words, their A/V equipment, their A/V settings, and perhaps their calibration settings in the game.

I'll make another attempt to explain what I think is happening. I agree that it can be a bit mind bending:

1) During a fill section, you hit a drum.
2) The signal from the drum makes it's way into the console, and is "noticed" by the software. (There must be a slight delay introduced, what with the speed of light and all, but since some people report that they have no noticeable lag, I'm going to suppose that the lag in this part of the chain is very low. If it wasn't, everybody would report lag.
3) The game generates a drum sound, and the console sends it out to your TV speakers, or to your audio system. Here again, the lag is probably very low during this part of the signal chain, because everybody uses this same chain, and some people report no lag. (Turning Dolby Digital on may introduce some noticeable lag at this point, so definitely try it both ways.)
4) Here's where people's experience diverges: All sorts of TV (speakers) and surround sound amplifiers enter the mix. Everybody is using different stuff. Some people see and hear no lag. Other people hear lots of lag. This is (probably) because their equipment is causing that lag. It just seems like the most likely explanation. We know this sort of equipment does cause lag in other situations, A/V geeks ***** about it constantly, so it shouldn't be a shock to see it happen here.

When you see lag, it's likely because your TV is not showing you the picture it got from the game right away. (TVs are known for that.) When you hear lag, it could be because something in your audio system is not putting that sound out to the speakers right away. (Audio systems sometimes do that.) If you are experiencing this, it will look the same as if the drum pad itself, or the game software, was the slow link in the chain. You have no way of telling exactly where the delay comes in. A delay in one place in the chain will look exactly the same as a delay in a separate part of the chain.

Again, it's possible that HMX has screwed up, and the lag is being introduced someplace "before" where the sound/video leaves the console. But again, that doesn't seem to be the way to bet. Surely they would have noticed this during testing. Also, if the problem is built into the game or its controllers, how come some people are not affected? It would have to be some sort of intermittent problem. Not impossible, but since we know that A/V equipment can introduce lag, isn't that the more likely explanation for now?

[jrmedia]

I think there might be some confusion here. Yes, the delay is certainly due to "processing", but we can't leap to the conclusion that this (slow) processing happens before your A/V equipment gets involved. A/V components do often introduce lag, and the result of that lag, even after you calibrate it "out", is exactly what you describe: You hit a note, but you don't see or hear it until a short time later.

You are correct that the source of the delay could theoretically be in the drums themselves, or it could be in the console or the software. A problem there would "look" the same as a delay in your TV or audio receiver. But if that were the case, everybody would be seeing similar symptoms, since everybody is running the same game, on the same console(s), with the same controllers. Since different people are getting different lag, it's only common sense to suspect the problem lies in the parts of the system that vary from person to person. In other words, their A/V equipment, their A/V settings, and perhaps their calibration settings in the game.

I'll make another attempt to explain what I think is happening. I agree that it can be a bit mind bending:

1) During a fill section, you hit a drum.
2) The signal from the drum makes it's way into the console, and is "noticed" by the software. (There must be a slight delay introduced, what with the speed of light and all, but since some people report that they have no noticeable lag, I'm going to suppose that the lag in this part of the chain is very low. If it wasn't, everybody would report lag.
3) The game generates a drum sound, and the console sends it out to your TV speakers, or to your audio system. Here again, the lag is probably very low during this part of the signal chain, because everybody uses this same chain, and some people report no lag. (Turning Dolby Digital on may introduce some noticeable lag at this point, so definitely try it both ways.)
4) Here's where people's experience diverges: All sorts of TV (speakers) and surround sound amplifiers enter the mix. Everybody is using different stuff. Some people see and hear no lag. Other people hear lots of lag. This is (probably) because their equipment is causing that lag. It just seems like the most likely explanation. We know this sort of equipment does cause lag in other situations, A/V geeks ***** about it constantly, so it shouldn't be a shock to see it happen here.

When you see lag, it's likely because your TV is not showing you the picture it got from the game right away. (TVs are known for that.) When you hear lag, it could be because something in your audio system is not putting that sound out to the speakers right away. (Audio systems sometimes do that.) If you are experiencing this, it will look the same as if the drum pad itself, or the game software, was the slow link in the chain. You have no way of telling exactly where the delay comes in. A delay in one place in the chain will look exactly the same as a delay in a separate part of the chain.

Again, it's possible that HMX has screwed up, and the lag is being introduced someplace "before" where the sound/video leaves the console. But again, that doesn't seem to be the way to bet. Surely they would have noticed this during testing. Also, if the problem is built into the game or its controllers, how come some people are not affected? It would have to be some sort of intermittent problem. Not impossible, but since we know that A/V equipment can introduce lag, isn't that the more likely explanation for now?

Like I said...Mute the TV....this is not an AUDIO PROBLEM! THIS HAS ZERO TO DO WITH SURROUND SOUND SYSTEMS OR STEROR RECIEVERS. EVEN WITH ALL THOSE THINGS CUT OUT OF THE EQUATION ITS THE SAME RESULT. Its a processing issue...I HAVE NO SOUND SYSTEM, JUST MY SAMSUNG LN-SERIES LCD TV. no matter how much i adjust the lag the processing does not change. Your over thinking this, your assuming that everone doesn't have the problem. Every person I talk to does have this problem, they're just not nerdy enough to go onto a message board and complain about it. Its not processing the sound quick enough. No matter what anyone does with the lag its always off. Maybe some people don't notice it because a) they don't care b) they know nothing about music and signal c) think its there fault and not the game.

try this:
disconnect all extra sound equipment and just use your TV speakers.
Mute the TV
no matter what your lag or calibration setting is the signal will not process any faster.

watch the icon light up as you hit the pad..its not instantaneous!

THIS IS WHY FILLS ARE ALWAYS OFF....

3rd party audio systems have nothing to do with this issue. why can't you people see this? come on guys...for real.

[jrmedia]

Everyone is not running the game on the same console..thats another assumption on your part..some people use the 360 others use the PS3 and low and behold...same ****ing issue. you drank the kool-aid bro. Its the same issue on both consoles. The PS3 and The 360 are completly different machines with different processors and guts. SAME ISSUE DAVE! its the software man.

not ragging on you i'm so disgusted that i need to take it out on something and HMX is ignoring us. sorry Dave.

[Mistersh0w]

Like I said...Mute the TV....this is not an AUDIO PROBLEM! THIS HAS ZERO TO DO WITH SURROUND SOUND SYSTEMS OR STEROR RECIEVERS. EVEN WITH ALL THOSE THINGS CUT OUT OF THE EQUATION ITS THE SAME RESULT. Its a processing issue...I HAVE NO SOUND SYSTEM, JUST MY SAMSUNG LN-SERIES LCD TV. no matter how much i adjust the lag the processing does not change. Your over thinking this, your assuming that everone doesn't have the problem. Every person I talk to does have this problem, they're just not nerdy enough to go onto a message board and complain about it. Its not processing the sound quick enough. No matter what anyone does with the lag its always off. Maybe some people don't notice it because a) they don't care b) they know nothing about music and signal c) think its there fault and not the game.

try this:
disconnect all extra sound equipment and just use your TV speakers.
Mute the TV
no matter what your lag or calibration setting is the signal will not process any faster.

watch the icon light up as you hit the pad..its not instantaneous!

THIS IS WHY FILLS ARE ALWAYS OFF....

3rd party audio systems have nothing to do with this issue. why can't you people see this? come on guys...for real.


jrmedia, you need to back me up in the main forum! The thread I linked to: here (http://community.rockband.com/vbforum/showthread.php?t=16277). I'm losing people's attention cause they don't believe this issue is as large as it is... They're having me go back to the old "plug in some RCA cables" solution, that doesn't work, and is NOT a long term solution...

[Barrid]

I encounter this lag problem on my DLP at home with no audio system hooked up, directly through the TV speakers. I've taken the game to my parent's house where they have an LCD set and no audio system, and I still have the same lag even though it's LCD. I've also taken the game to my friend's house who has a Plasma again with no sound system hooked up, there's still a lag. 3/3 HDTVs I've tried the game on experience the same problem, all 3 just going through the main TV's speakers.

And yes, I spent lots of time trying to callibrate correctly for each TV by first using the built-in settings for LCD, DLP, Plasma and then trying to manually tune it. I think it would be really helpful to have some sort of way to test the lag inside of the callibration system. Maybe it could track where you were playing the notes and show it to you so you can see if you're always ahead or behind and suggest a different setting. I am a drummer, so I can easily tell when the timing isn't lining up between the speakers and the notes I'm hitting.

[jrmedia]

I encounter this lag problem on my DLP at home with no audio system hooked up, directly through the TV speakers. I've taken the game to my parent's house where they have an LCD set and no audio system, and I still have the same lag even though it's LCD. I've also taken the game to my friend's house who has a Plasma again with no sound system hooked up, there's still a lag. 3/3 HDTVs I've tried the game on experience the same problem, all 3 just going through the main TV's speakers.

And yes, I spent lots of time trying to callibrate correctly for each TV by first using the built-in settings for LCD, DLP, Plasma and then trying to manually tune it. I think it would be really helpful to have some sort of way to test the lag inside of the callibration system. Maybe it could track where you were playing the notes and show it to you so you can see if you're always ahead or behind and suggest a different setting. I am a drummer, so I can easily tell when the timing isn't lining up between the speakers and the notes I'm hitting.


This guy is suffering from the same issues that we're all suffering from.

To prove my point from before...ITS NOT a 3RD PARTY audio issue. Its definetly a software issue. When the drum pad is hit the signal travels through the controller wire to the xbox 360 which takes the signal and converts the audio to a snare (tom cymbal..etc). Its taking far to long for the signal to be processed.

I REPEAT THIS IS NOT A PROBLEM CAUSED BY "US" OR OUR SYSTEMS!

COME ON HARMONIX, WHERE IS ARE FxCKING UPDATE! ITS BEEN A MONTH ALREADY!

[dagware]

I think there might be some confusion here. <snip>

Dave -

Your post is intelligent and logical. And I do hope it turns out to be the answer, as it's the only one that makes sense. I will do some more experimenting tonight to see what I can figure out.

jrmedia -

I think you need to re-read Dave's post. It does offer an explanation for what you (and I) are experiencing. In short, the audio delay may be caused by our audio systems, and the video delay may be caused by our video systems.

In other words, when we do a fill and hear the drum sounds late, it may be because our audio systems caused the delay. When we hit a drum pad and there's a delay before we see it on screen, that could indeed be caused by our video systems.

I have to say that on my system, the delay is so obvious that *anyone* would notice it. Since some people seemingly do not have the issue, the only rational explanation is that my system is causing the issue. Now I just have to see if I can prove it. I thought I had ruled this out before, but now I'm thinking I may not have been thorough enough. I'll post my results tonight.

Dan

[davidshek]

This guy is suffering from the same issues that we're all suffering from.

To prove my point from before...ITS NOT a 3RD PARTY audio issue. Its definetly a software issue. When the drum pad is hit the signal travels through the controller wire to the xbox 360 which takes the signal and converts the audio to a snare (tom cymbal..etc). Its taking far to long for the signal to be processed.

I REPEAT THIS IS NOT A PROBLEM CAUSED BY "US" OR OUR SYSTEMS!

COME ON HARMONIX, WHERE IS ARE FxCKING UPDATE! ITS BEEN A MONTH ALREADY!

First of all, calm down. Your aggression isn't helping you or anyone else, it just makes you look like an ass.

Second of all, that guy's post didn't prove anything. He said himself that he tried it on 3/3 HDTVs. It's common knowledge that HDTVs cause lag, that's why these games have lag calibration at all.

Edit: Ok so I just talked with jrmedia a bit offline, and realized he and I do have the same problem. The drum lag only occurs during fills, not during the rest of the song. For me, it only happens when I'm playing BWT, not solo tour drums. For him, it's any mode. Weird. Ah well, sorry jr, I misunderstood your original problem.

[jrmedia]

I'm so sick of dicking with the settings...iI've been fxcking with these settings for over a month. I got the game they day it came out and it hasn't been right since. I'm giving up completly on trying to find any answers. I've done every single thing that everyone has suggested and the problem hasn't gotten any better. I'll check back for updates but as far as posting and posting, i'm done. I'm defeated. Harmonix has broke me down with there silence like they've been trying to do all along.

THANKS TO EVERYONE WHO TRIED TO HELP ME OUT

once again my TV is:
Samsung LN-series LCD TV
No 3rd party sound systems
Xbox 360 (no hdmi my 360 doesn't have hdmi)

if anyone ever fixes it and it works perfectly let me know.

I will never buy another harmonix game again until this issue is either resolved or they admit that they're is no fix. I sincerely mean that.

good luck to everyone here who has put up with this bullsh1t for so long. i'm done.

[photokid1970]

Here is a super-easy way to tell if the lag problem is drum-fill related... simply don't change your beat! If you are in a song with a steady boom click boom click boom click etc, then keep doing that when you get to the drum fill. I tried that because I wanted to save my energy until the meter was full.. that's when I noticed that I got off beat really bad.

I kept screwing up the timing in the fills, and I thought that I'd just play through them so I could keep a steady beat. But the lag is fierce in the fill - so when I adjusted for it mentally it made things worse.

I'm sure there is latency related to the signal from the drum to my 360 and to my Onkyo receiver etc - but the calibration tool worked perfectly there. I have ZERO latency issues elsewhere in the game. But the drum fills are terrible. I noticed it yesterday and came here to see if anyone else had noticed it - and apparently a lot of folks have!

I hope Harmonix can help us!

[nhl2k]

I've posted in this thread about my lag issues with the mic not picking up my singing right away, but I haven't been able to figure out if it has anything to do with calibration. But I'd like to know from those who have been trying to remove the lag from the drum fills if changing the lag settings changes the amount of lag in the drum fills or is it always the same no matter what the lag settings are? For instance, have you turned the lag calibration down to 0, and did that help with the fills, or are they delayed as much on 0 ms as they are on 100 ms?
As much as I hate to admit it, if there is a noticeable lag in the TV, then I believe there is no way the fills can be fixed. And that makes me question why this method was even used to invoke overdrive in the first place. I can't see how they wouldn't know this would happen. They knew HDTVs created lag, so there should have been nothing done in the game real-time, as cool as that could/should be if it worked.

[kidwei]

Through a lot of experimentation and the help of these threads, I was able to correct my a/v sync lag manually and calibrate the lag for the instruments. The HUGE problem I'm having is that my drums lag significantly more than the guitar. If I perform a calibration using the drums, the lag is somewhere around 85ms. At that setting, I can play along directly with the music and hit quick fills easily. But at 85ms lag, the guitar is absolutely unplayable. I have to purposely play behind the music to get it to work at all. The simplest notes are very difficult to play. Doing a calibration with the guitar sets the lag closer to 0ms. This makes the drums completely unplayable, as their lag is very significant.

This 85ms delta between the two separate lags makes a perfect calibration for a full-band set up completely impossible. So the only solution is to set the lag somewhere in the middle. I chose 45ms. The end result is that the game is mostly playable, but fast sequences are much harder than they need to be.

I'm planning to RMA my drums. My replacement guitar has sticky frets. I'm really unhappy about this, and a free game is nice, but still doesn't recoup my $170 investment in this game.

Frankly speaking, I think it's absolutely pathetic that HMX/MTV/whoever couldn't engineer a little drumkit with less than 85ms lag. It's absolutely silly that it should take so long for the signal to be processed.

My setup is:
Samsung LN-S3251D LCD TV
Panasonic SA-XR57 receiver (turning off dolby digital doesn't help)
using component cables with optical audio

[Killbasa]

I was experimenting with various settings on my system and in the game this morning, trying to minimize fill break lag on my drums when i noticed a curious thing i hadn't noticed before.

The lag between hitting and hearing seemed different depending if i was playing a fill break or if i was in a big rock ending (or hitting random notes before the song began).

The fill breaks seemed much laggier than the endings.

I fully understand the problem with system latency and that a system cant offset for something that hasn't happened yet, etc but if the problem was solely my system, the amount of lag should be consistent.

I thought that maybe this difference was merely something in my perceptions, not reality (that or the lag had finally driven me insane) so I made some audio recordings to see what i could find.

I used 2 Mics on a ProTools systems, one mic on my kit, one on my speaker. Each recorded to a separate track so I could compare the hit/hear offsets with real time measurements. I clapped my hands as the song began as a slate to be sure the tracks themself were in sync.

My findings were shocking!

My system is a DLP display and surround home theatre receiver hooked up via HDMI and Optical respectively to a PS3. My in-game settigns are -20ms A/V offset and 34ms lag compensation. The instant red note crosses the play line I hit it, the display flashes and i hear the note perfectly in sync with the rest of the song. Everything feels tight during non-improvised sections.

The recordings showed the following lags between what i hit and when i hear it:

Big Rock Ending (or random intro notes): 10ms
Fill Break: 145ms

When I reset all game settings to zero the numbers were:

Big Rock Ending (or random intro notes): 10ms
Fill Break: 125ms (putting back the 20ms of negative AV Offset accounts for the difference. Not sure why I didnt see the same change in the first number.)

These numbers stayed absolutely consistent over multiple recordings and different songs.

I understand that the 10ms of lag is inherent in my system and I just have to live with it but with this data backing me up, there is no way anyone can convince me the fill lag is anything but a programing problem in the game itself.

Of course, I welcome you to try.

[jrmedia]

THANK YOU!!! I'm so glad that you took the time to run the experiment. I've been preaching this problem for a month on this forum but didn't have the hard core evidence that you have.

This being said...I have the same TV as you.

HMX MUST READ THIS!!!

[dagware]

The only way you can prove your audio system is not the problem is by eliminating it. I did this as an experiment: I took the RCA outs from the PS3 and plugged them into my Mackie mixer, and used headphones. The lag was almost entirely eliminated. I say almost, because when I tried vocals, there is a slight delay, which sounds like bad reverb. There's probably the same amount of delay in the drum fills, or maybe not -- maybe it's the mic itself that causes the delay. Again, this is a really small delay.

BTW, I have a PS3. I reset all game calibrations to 0. I turned off DD both in the PS3 and the game. I probably should also have tested with them on to see if they cause any problems, but I didn't.

The bottom line is this: My audio system was causing virtually all the delay. You can come up with all sorts of logical reasons why the problem is not your audio system. But until you eliminate your system for testing purposes, everything else you say is just speculation. Do yourself a favor and test it yourself.

Dan

PS: Of course, I don't know what I'll do with this information. Will I buy a new audio system? Time will tell.

[dagware]

As an addendum to my previous post: I don't have an explanation for the reported differences in drum fills vs. big ending delays. And frankly, I don't care. As I said, until you eliminate your audio system from the loop, everything else is just guessing.

Dan

[lozcs]

I had my ps3 hooked to a new lg 42" 1080p lcd and had the lag. I redirected my audio straight to my stereo and its now perfect. Just wanted to let people know it can be fixed.

Anyone know if I can do this with a Sony LCD? (Model kdl46w2000) I've set the lag to match the drums but the delay on the drum fills are terrible! Makes it unplayable!

I've looked through the menu on the TV and can't find anywhere to turn off any audio processing or game mode?

Would connecting via composite cables improve rather than HDMI? or can I stick with HDMI for video and take an audio feed from phono?


Thanks,

Lawrence......

[janai]

I, too, can confirm that it doesn't have anything to do with the system setup. I've played with setting for hours and hours and the bottom line is that the game does not process vocal input fast enough.

It's not about mic lag that you hear over your speakers--that is a separate issue. What I am talking about is the fact that the game doesn't process the vocal input quickly enough for the arrow to hit the beginning of the bar when you are singing along with the original lead vocalist. The only way to 5-star songs on expert is to intentionally begin singing before the singer in the original track so that you can get points for the full lengths of the bars.

Now, let's get this fixed, please, Harmonix! :)


I've been noticing exactly the same thing, and I think it's what's killing me on the so-called talky bits -- I can get Awesome on every single sung phrase in an Expert-level song (usually by beating it to the punch slightly) and yet never top Okay or Weak on the spoken bits, no matter how hard I try. I'm not doing it wrong. I swear to all that's holy, I'm not doing it wrong. But I can do it softly, I can scream it so loudly it hurts to sing afterwards, I can emphasize the syllables as hard as possible, I can turn it into a generic holler, I can mess with the mic sensitivity, I can turn the mic sensitivity up so high that what I'm getting out of the TV is nothing but crackling, etc., etc., but nothing works. It's killing all my multipliers and it's driving me _nuts_.

Meanwhile, the guitar strum thingy (even though it's not failing quite in the same way most people are describing, I don't think) is so hard to use that I can't get anywhere even on Hard, while I've done fine on that in every Guitar Hero game previous. And of course, since I'm on a PS3, I have no choices there whatsoever. Am about ready to toss something out the window. *half-smile*


(By the way, there's no audio system in the way to speak of. The PS3's hooked to the TV and that's it -- no external speakers, receiver, etc.)

[Bakkster]

My system is a DLP display and surround home theatre receiver hooked up via HDMI and Optical respectively to a PS3. My in-game settigns are -20ms A/V offset and 34ms lag compensation. The instant red note crosses the play line I hit it, the display flashes and i hear the note perfectly in sync with the rest of the song. Everything feels tight during non-improvised sections.

The recordings showed the following lags between what i hit and when i hear it:

Big Rock Ending (or random intro notes): 10ms
Fill Break: 145ms

When I reset all game settings to zero the numbers were:

Big Rock Ending (or random intro notes): 10ms
Fill Break: 125ms (putting back the 20ms of negative AV Offset accounts for the difference. Not sure why I didnt see the same change in the first number.)

These numbers stayed absolutely consistent over multiple recordings and different songs.

I understand that the 10ms of lag is inherent in my system and I just have to live with it but with this data backing me up, there is no way anyone can convince me the fill lag is anything but a programing problem in the game itself.

Of course, I welcome you to try.

Thank you. I challenged people (probably 15 pages back) to find a way to prove their latency was actually in the software or hardware itself, and it looks like you've pretty well pinned it to software.

I hope you have PMed Sean or John with this info so they can know to take a look at the fill code and any differences between it and the Big Rock Endings.

Mostly I'm interested why they would be different (probably the unique code has a bug) and, more importantly, why it isn't happening to everybody.

[dagware]

I'm not saying either of you are wrong.

I'm a software developer. One of the things this means is that I spend a lot of time trying to find out why something is happening. One of the things I have learned is that sometimes logic is your worst enemy. Some lines of reasoning seem like they are undeniably correct. But then actual experience comes along and it looks like what's happening couldn't possibly be happening, due to aforementioned logical reasoning, yet it happens anyway.

What I've learned from this is to trust only what is testable and provable. Once you find out what is *actually* happening, you almost always understand why the previous line of reasoning was faulty.

So, I'll repeat (again) my recommendation. Remove your audio system from the loop and see what happens. This does NOT mean hooking it up to your TV's speakers, by the way, because it may have delays of it's own. Hook it up to a boom box or something like that. Something cheap with no processing whatsoever. Or to the poster who has the recording equipment, use that with headphones (don't use noise-reducing headphones because they might have a delay).

Once you've done this, then you are in the position to state things unequivocally. Until then, you're just speculating -- intelligent speculation, perhaps even correct speculation, but speculation nonetheless.

Dan

[BearFan51]

I'm not saying either of you are wrong.

I'm a software developer. One of the things this means is that I spend a lot of time trying to find out why something is happening. One of the things I have learned is that sometimes logic is your worst enemy. Some lines of reasoning seem like they are undeniably correct. But then actual experience comes along and it looks like what's happening couldn't possibly be happening, due to aforementioned logical reasoning, yet it happens anyway.

What I've learned from this is to trust only what is testable and provable. Once you find out what is *actually* happening, you almost always understand why the previous line of reasoning was faulty.

So, I'll repeat (again) my recommendation. Remove your audio system from the loop and see what happens. This does NOT mean hooking it up to your TV's speakers, by the way, because it may have delays of it's own. Hook it up to a boom box or something like that. Something cheap with no processing whatsoever. Or to the poster who has the recording equipment, use that with headphones (don't use noise-reducing headphones because they might have a delay).

Once you've done this, then you are in the position to state things unequivocally. Until then, you're just speculating -- intelligent speculation, perhaps even correct speculation, but speculation nonetheless.

Dan

I use ProTools as well, the test he did, while not extensive, holds some water here. ProTools is professional level software, and hardware. The only time latency is an issue, is when processing is happening in real time. This does not come into play with his experiment.

By recording the audio, he's making a record of the corrections made to his audio system in real time.(microphone on the speaker)

By miking the pads, he's tracking, in real time, the baseline for the corrections made to the A/V system. (actual notes played)

The fact that the latency was brought to within 10ms, could be attributed to a combination of some delay brought by the A/V system, combined with human error inaccuracies of physically hitting the pads to set the calibration. Unless you are a professional studio musician, it's very difficult to exactly nail those notes with 100% accuracy. A few ms here and there can quickly add up.

The poster did a very smart thing in clapping his hands. This was picked up by both microphones, ensuring there was no error in the alignment of the two audio tracks. The audible peaks can be visually confirmed on screen as being perfectly in sync.


Hang with me here, I'm getting to the point...:D

The fact that the two tracks are aligned and do not lose sync, until a fill (power up mode) is played, eliminates his system as the cause for this specific case. It is only losing sync during these short passages. He repeated the same procedure for multiple songs, with the same result.
Sync is regained after the fills.

In order for the A/V system to introduce lag only for these parts, it would have to change something in the processing mid-stream, on it's own, yes? Sometimes logic can be your friend.

Since there are similar games without these issues, lots of them being used on these same A/V systems, in this case, I think we can look at this being a software issue.

The 145ms fill lag is measurable on screen.

I do think a majority of the other sync issues are user-error, and some quality time spent with user manuals is in order for those folks.

[dagware]

Let me say it again, for the hearing impaired (OK, that was a low shot, sorry -- I was channeling old Saturday Night Live reruns): No matter how good your logic is, it's still speculation until you actually remove your sound system and try it that way. I actually *can* explain some of the things you've mentioned. But if I do that, all we'll do is argue about something that you could prove yourself if you'd just try.

I've discussed this enough, by the way, so I doubt I'll continue. If you're dead-set on believing your logic is infallible, there's nothing I can do about it. As I've said before, you may indeed be correct. But there's only one way to prove it (not just win an argument, but prove your theory is correct), and that's the way I've recommended.

'Nuff said.

Dan

[Bakkster]

Let me say it again, for the hearing impaired (OK, that was a low shot, sorry -- I was channeling old Saturday Night Live reruns): No matter how good your logic is, it's still speculation until you actually remove your sound system and try it that way. I actually *can* explain some of the things you've mentioned. But if I do that, all we'll do is argue about something that you could prove yourself if you'd just try.

I've discussed this enough, by the way, so I doubt I'll continue. If you're dead-set on believing your logic is infallible, there's nothing I can do about it. As I've said before, you may indeed be correct. But there's only one way to prove it (not just win an argument, but prove your theory is correct), and that's the way I've recommended.

I would disagree. The Sound System is just a constant delay in this case. Again, unless the A/V system has a different delay for the drum fills than before the song (wouldn't you hear the transition?), or the drums cause some change only during fills (seems silly to me), we are left with it being in software (or at least, something on the console).

It may still be speculation, but only because we can not see the code. The burden of proof would be on somebody to prove that the A/V system actually WAS causing this issue, not the other way around, and I feel confident in the conclusion based on this data.

[snake1111]

fixed it for me.

had a big lag with ps3 and hd projektion. switched to analog (cable and setting) on ps3 and receiver and the lag is almost gone. before on digital it was huge.

so perhaps you try this way...

edit* almost does not mean 100&#37;. played a few songs. the drumfill is not perfect but singing is now possible. i guess i cut it to one third....

[audioeric]

Okay, so I was having this issue and here's what I did..

The first calibration was originally set at around -20ms.. Then I did the test for the next one and I don't remember what that was at.. I had the problem where everything was fine until the drum fills. Then, I looked at it better and realized that I was anticipating the sound subconciously.. After some analysis I set it at +20ms, then did the calibration for the second (around 35ms). Now, it made it MUCH better. I didn't change anything except for turning off the Dolby Digital. My AV Receiver A/V Sync has always been at 0. I was able to verify that there was no difference between the audio signals because I have my 360 hooked up by HDMI and optical out. So, HDMI directly to TV and TV speakers and the Optical Out to the AV were exactly in sync except when I turned on Dolby Digital; even drum fills.

From my experience, then, the problem isn't anything software but user error in setting the calibration. Try really looking at that first calibration tool, as I believe if you set that incorrectly the second one will also be messed up. Give it a go, it's worth a shot...

If the first calibration is audio, then a negative should definitely have the affect that we are all having because the rehearsed music knows what's going to happen in 30ms, but the drum pads don't know you're going to hit them. Okay, so might not make complete sense, but maybe this will spur some thought by someone else...

[dagware]

The burden of proof would be on somebody to prove that the A/V system actually WAS causing this issue, not the other way around, and I feel confident in the conclusion based on this data.

You can be confident all you want, but it seems likely to me that unless you can prove to Harmonix that it's really their fault, they aren't going to do anything about it. I've read posts in other threads that seem to indicate they don't think it's their problem. My interpretation could be wrong, of course, but here's the point: Unless Harmonix thinks there's a problem, you can be "right" all you want and it won't matter.

I have to wonder why you won't try what I've suggested? Regardless of whether you're sure of the results or not, what harm could it do? I mean seriously, wouldn't it be a kick in the pants if it ended up showing you something that helped solve your issues?

I'm done with this thread, by the way. There's really no point in continuing the discussion.

Dan

[iamdancingbear]

Just wanted to add myself to the list of "horrible drum fill lag, bad vocal echo, calibrating to drums makes the guitar unplayable and vice-versa".

System:
Xbox360, HDMI to Visio 42" LCD set to "game mode". Not hooked up to stereo.
Calibration: 95ms/95ms to make the drums playable, 0ms/0ms to make the guitar playable.

And yes, when I hook the analog cables from the Xbox360 to a crappy TV, both the guitar and drums are playable and the drum fills are just fine (I havent tried the mic on the crappy setup yet), but that isn't an acceptable solution. Obviously I'd rather play it on my widescreen flatpanel.

Regardless of whether the problem itself is in the software, hardware, whatever, surely a software solution can be developed for this. Apart from the drum fill lag problem, at least the ability to seperately calibrate the individual instruments would go a long way in making the game more playable, as 90&#37; of my playing is multiplayer with my wife.

[kidwei]

Regardless of whether the problem itself is in the software, hardware, whatever, surely a software solution can be developed for this. Apart from the drum fill lag problem, at least the ability to seperately calibrate the individual instruments would go a long way in making the game more playable, as 90% of my playing is multiplayer with my wife.

interesting you say that, because EA phone support told me to "calibrate the different instruments one after another". I asked them for detailed instructions on how to do that, but they couldn't give me a clear answer. One supervisor said something about calibrating on different gamertags. She obviously didn't know what she was talking about, since you can only use one set of settings at a time. If they allowed us to calibrate individual instruments, the game might actually be playable. C'mn hmx, make a statement!

[tsmith4644]

For the first day I had Rock Band for the 360, I was playing on a normal TV...everything worked great. Once I moved it into my room where I played it on a computer monitor and surround sound...everything went crappy. The guitar seems the same, but now I like suck at the drums. I'm not sure if it's some sort of lag or if it's the drums. It's very aggravating though because I just got to the point where I need to play on hard for all instruments, which is a little hard when the drums portion fail.
Has anyone had similar problems, and if so, any solutions?:confused:

Thanks.

[dagware]

For the first day I had Rock Band for the 360, I was playing on a normal TV...everything worked great. Once I moved it into my room where I played it on a computer monitor and surround sound...everything went crappy. The guitar seems the same, but now I like suck at the drums. I'm not sure if it's some sort of lag or if it's the drums. It's very aggravating though because I just got to the point where I need to play on hard for all instruments, which is a little hard when the drums portion fail.
Has anyone had similar problems, and if so, any solutions?:confused:

Thanks.

It's definitely a calibration issue. Be prepared to spend an hour messing with the calibration until you get it right, but once you do, it should solve the issue. Mind you, you may have lag during drum fills which you might not be able to get rid of, but at least you should be able to play.

[Brettski012]

Ok, I've read almost all of the 20 pages so far on this thread trying to figure this issue out. I've set up over a dozen home theaters in my time and just set up a brand new one for myself. I am quite familiar with every setting there is on my lcd tv and my receiver. I have my ps3 plugged directly into my receiver through hdmi.

I believe there is more than one issue being talked about from what I've read but I'll just discuss mine to go on record. I calibrated to my system and everything works great, as long as I turn off the dolby digital option. I'm not much of a drummer so there may be a little lag in the fills but I don't notice much of any. As for the mic, I haven't tested out how well it works in the game but a simple test of the mic with the regular stereo setting and I hear myself through the speakers at pretty much the same time I speak.

My issue comes when I turn on dolby digital. Having the cheers and the effects come through the rears and surrounding the room really makes the game in my opinion, and after hearing that it's simply disappointing to hear anything else. But as soon as I turn on DD the drum fills are way off and even worse to me is the mic delay. My girlfriend's the singer around here and the first time we plugged the game in and started to play I was shocked to hear how badly the mic worked. You'd sing and then hear yourself after. That's what got me on here looking for a solution. Turning off DD does fix that and it seems instantanious with it off (it may still not sync up with the game I don't know but my voice comes through the speakers with no delay.)

I am quite confident that it has nothing to do with any settings on my system. Playing the guitar or the drums regularly is spot on, and lag in hdtv's is constant. My concern especially has nothing to do with the tv. I simply speak into the mic, then hear what I said repeated to me in the speakers. There's nothing visual about that.

As far as Dagware's comments, this game was developed for next generation consoles. These next generation consoles are made to be played on the latest and greatest in home theaters. I bought my ps3 for the dolby digital/dts in every game and the 1080p capability. This is a game for and about sound... Outside the crowd effects I'm highly disappointed by the DD mix in this game (bass on the bass drum???) but I'll leave that for another thread. It is definitely a software problem, if not directly with the sound mixing and reproduction than the problem is with the options and customization settings. Everyone should be able to get the game synced up with their respective surround systems and hdtv's in every way with every instrument.

As most everyone else on this thread I'd really like to hear if anything is being done about this. I would think a patch tweaking the DD mix wouldn't be out of the question, but I'm not a programmer. Even if the answer is that nothing can be done, I can live with playing in regular stereo when there's a singer. Just an answer would be nice.

[dagware]

I can't believe I'm jumping into this discussion again, but apparently I can't help myself. :o

If you get a lag when you turn on DD, but don't have it when it's off, then there's really only 3 possibilities I can think of:


The PS3 takes longer to produce the sounds.
Your audio system takes longer to produce the sounds.
Both of the above.


This is just my opinion, but my guess is that it is *not* #1, because there are plenty of people who claim to not have the problem. That only leaves #2.

If the problem is #2, there's nothing that Harmonix can do to make the drum fills come out quicker. It can't be clairvoyant and say "I think he's going to hit a pad, so let's start the sound early, so by the time it comes out of the speakers, it will be in time with when he hits that pad."

Dan

[TribalDancer]

We, too, have done everything in this thread and others to try and calibrate, and we still get a delay on the vocals that is irritating. The drum fills, too, but I don't play drums as much as vocals, so it hasn't been as bad for me personally as an irritant.

I agree that it surprises me that these next generation games, built entirely on the power of sound, cannot use the great sound technology we have in our homes. I have to turn off surround to play? Kinda silly...

[LeanderMAV]

Hey everybody,

We're looking into this now but there are a few things you can do to limit mic and drum fill lag.

1) DLP TVs and some Plasma TVs have this problem the worst, especially when you run your sound through that TV.
2) If your TV has a "game mode" or "low latency mode" make sure you have that enabled.
3) If it's still bad, go through analog cables into an external receiver. If you go through digital, turn off 5.1 Dolby Digital from in-game.
4) If you have a receiver with adjustable latency, turn that latency off.

If this doesn't help at all please post all the info you have regarding your audio visual setup here so we can investigate further.

Thanks,
Sean

Well my mic seems to work alright, no complaints from others playing with me at parties, BUT the drum fill is horrible. No amount of lag settings or DD edits seems to help. Playing the song seems spot on, but the fill sections go to hell. I have an Onkyo TS-SR600 reciever with S-Video connection to a 36" CRT(Magnavox) Xbox360 connects by S-videio and rca jacks for sound. By no means cutting edge set up, but hell how can the drums fill sections be sooooo off.
This seem to be clearly a patchable fix. I suspect EA is busy chasing their tails with bad hardware issues to deal with this one. Already had my guitar replaced. Will wait and see how long that one lasts.

[DaveNagy]

I am quite confident that it has nothing to do with any settings on my system. Playing the guitar or the drums regularly is spot on, and lag in hdtv's is constant. My concern especially has nothing to do with the tv. I simply speak into the mic, then hear what I said repeated to me in the speakers. There's nothing visual about that.

Okay, one more time. Dagware and I seem to be trapped in this thread, repeating the same explanations over and over. (I apologize for not responding sooner, I couldn't find this forum after the site changes were made.)

One thing that should be obvious, but perhaps isn't, is that the "normal" drum/bass/guitar parts are a totally different kettle of fish than the drum fills and vocals. Of course the (for instance) guitar parts look and sound "perfect" if you've calibrated the game properly. That's what those calibration settings are for. Your TV and/or audio system could be horribly laggy, and you'd hardly be able to tell during the "normal" parts of the song. Why? Because you aren't really playing those notes. The game doesn't wait until you have pushed a button to play the notes. You are listening to a recording of the (for instance) guitar part. You are not "playing" those notes. Hitting a button on the guitar does not cause that note to sound. The game is merely monitoring your button presses to verify that they are "correct". In the case of a laggy TV, your button presses will be significantly late because you have synced them up "by ear" to your laggy video/audio. But since you have calibrated, the game knows you will always be late, and thus pretends that you weren't. The worst that will happen is that some of your goofs will still sound okay, because the game didn't know you screwed up in time to stop the note from sounding.

I hope that's clear. Because it's important. The fact that the "guitar part seems totally fine," does not mean that your A/V system is not laggy. It just doesn't. It merely means that the system for "calibrating out" this lag works well. Just like it does in other games, like GH. Old news. This thread is not about that.

This thread is about the parts of the game where you are playing/singing "live". Eg. drum fills. A completely different thing.

Here are a few incorrect assumptions that are being thrown around in this thread:

1) "I'm using my TV speakers, so those couldn't be lagged!"

Wrong. They could be lagged, and in fact they often are. Why? Because the video portion of many TVs introduces lag. Uncorrected, this would lead to situations where you are watching TV and it looks like the "lip sync" is off. You hear the dialog, but the lips haven't started moving yet. Looks like a poorly dubbed foreign flick. So, what does the TV manufacturer do? They purposely delay the audio going to the speakers. Audio delay circuits are incredibly cheap. Way cheaper than redesigning the video circuitry to be lag free. (If that's even possible.) Result? The audio and video is back to being in perfect sync. Sure, both are now delayed, but you're never going to detect that. How could you? "Hey, this TV show started 35ms late!" Nope, the only time you could notice this is when you trigger something on the TV. Like changing a channel. You won't "see" that channel change until a fraction of a second after it happens. It will be delayed. But something like that is hard to notice. Most people would just blame it on the tuner, even if they did notice.

2) "My TV's lag is constant, but the lag I experience in the game changes. Thus, it must be the game!"

Nope. It's just that certain parts of the game (the guitar, bass, and normal drum parts) can "correct" for your system lag. While other parts (drum fills, vocals) can't be fixed in the same way. Now, if the vocals are delayed, and the drum fills aren't, then that indicates a different problem.

3) "The sound through the mic is delayed. That has nothing to do with my TV!"

Actually, it might. If your picture is laggy, then the TV's audio probably is as well. See: #1 above. Not using the TV's audio? Well, did you do the calibration in the game? That first adjustment is designed to delay your audio to match your video, or vice versa. After calibrating, both your audio and video should be equally delayed. If your TV was laggy to start with, your audio is now just as laggy. Congrats!

But, during things like drum fills, that "purposeful" delay should be removed. If Harmonix isn't do that, then bad on them. That could be a bug. Although it's such an obvious one that it's hard to believe it wasn't caught. But, who knows.

4) "Okay, maybe my equipment is at fault. HMX still could/should have put in a software fix so I don't notice the problem."

Sorry. Impossible. (Unless they know how read minds, or reverse the flow of time.) Let's say there's a 100ms delay, somewhere in your system. That means no matter what the software does, you won't know about it until 100ms later. So, if you want to hit the drum and hear it instantaneously, the game would have to output that sound 100ms before you hit the pad. A good trick. Perhaps some sort of magnetic stick-proximity-detecting hardware could do that, but otherwise... not gonna happen.

So again, here's what the evidence (and common sense) suggests to me:

1) Turning on Dolby Digital may cause more lag. This might be a problem in the software, or in the console hardware, or in the DD decoder in the AV gear. This, and setting all your calibration setting to 0ms, might be the only "fix" possible. (Actually, I wish there were a way to turn the dang drum fills off.)

2) If lag exists in the A/V signal chain, it will be impossible to fix in the game itself. (Except for in the majority of the game where you aren't really playing. The non-fill, non-vocal parts. But we're not talking about those parts, right?)

3) If HMX is purposely delaying the vocal or drum-fill audio, just so it is properly synced with your video, then they screwed up and need to fix that. (Again, setting your in game calibration settings to 0ms/0ms will remove this as a possible source of the problem, but it might also make the rest of the game unplayable.)

Conclusion: Set the in-game calibration settings to 0ms/0ms and turn off Dolby Digital. Consider running analog stereo audio to an analog amp. Tap a drum during a "playable" section, or make clicking noises into the mic. Still hearing a delay? You are probably screwed. It is likely that your audio system is introducing that delay. You cannot correct for it.

[dagware]

Gee Dave, where have you been? :D (Yes, I read your explanation of where you've been, but I felt so lonely here!)

Great explanation, and I sure hope it clears some things up.

Dan

[TribalDancer]

Yes, Dave, that makes perfect sense. Thanks.

[photokid1970]

Dave - awesome explaination. My only post in this thread (several pages back) was mostly about the drum fills being behind.. I can't even tap through them because the delay is so bad. I 'knew' the rest of my setup was ok, so I was just making do with the fill issue.

But like one other post said - sometimes logic is our worst enemy! I do software and hardware support for mortgage officers on laptops, and I have seen it all. It is amazing how you can PROVE that a problem is caused by one thing only to find out later that you were completely off base. In my case it is usually because one of my users left out a seemingly insignificant fact when telling me their side of the story.

So let's relate that to Rock Band. I have set my game calibration to "Rear projection" (I have an Onky 7.1 receiver and a JVC rear projection tv), and I don't see any errors in lag with the guitar or drums until I get to a drum fill. So I was thinking "OK, it's software - because my 360 or my receiver wouldn't suddenly just lag during these parts!"

BUT - lets say that I do have 100ms delay in my tv *and* in my receiver - I wouldn't know it if they were equal. So if Dan's statement about notes partially playing until I screw up is correct -then you are hearing that delay in action. I have been such a bad guitar player I haven't noticed that error - but I'm getting much better so now I'll have to check!

I also have not taken my receiver out of the equation because, like I said, my normal gameplay is fine. But what if I take it out and then try the drum fills? That's worth a shot. I'll try that in the morning.

Kyle

[Brettski012]

Thanks for the post Dave,

You make some very good points, especially the part about the game laggin the regular play through calibration but the mic/drum fills being live. I honestly never thought of that.

Dagware, you're a different story. I think you are repeating yourself a little too much. I'm running a brand new Denon AVR988 top of the line receiver straight to my ps3 through hdmi 1.3a. I highly doubt my receiver is to blame for the delay. I've also tried it on an older but still very capable jvc through optical and encountered the exact same lag. So option 2 doesn't hold much merit either. What I really don't understand is why I've seen you on other threads complaining about the lag and then on here denouncing that there is one? I love your idea about using the mic to calibrate the system though, I will say that.

I do understand that both of you are just trying to correct those that are blaming the wrong issues for their problems, but I don't believe I'm one of those people.


Back to the subject at hand:

"But, during things like drum fills, that "purposeful" delay should be removed. If Harmonix isn't do that, then bad on them. That could be a bug. Although it's such an obvious one that it's hard to believe it wasn't caught. But, who knows."

This is what I believe to be the case and I really think you the hit the nail on the head here, and wouldn't that be an easy fix on the developer's part to simply patch to seperate those sections from the calibration? Even an added option in audio settings to turn mic/drum fills lag on/off for those that experience it and those that don't. I'd love to hear a developers response to this. Whether or not the calibration is removed for those sections or not.


There does remain though the possibility that there is a delay for the "live" parts on any receiver regardless of the capability because of the simple fact that the DD has to be decoded and then played. That would actually make sense to me but I don't see why harmonix would include a DD option if that were the case. I'd like to hear of anyone who has a perfectly synced system using Dolby Digital with 5.1 speakers. I'd be very happy to be proved wrong.

I'm sure you'll let me know if I'm mistaken in anything on this post, and I honestly welcome the feedback, harsh or not.


P.S. my strum bar broke today, I got the game two days ago. Oh well, love
the drums.

[dagware]

Dagware, you're a different story. I think you are repeating yourself a little too much.

Only because you guys continue to refuse to take my advise. I can't believe you read Dave's explanation and still don't get it. But I promise (and this time I mean it) that I won't post on the subject any more.

Dan

[dagware]

In my case it is usually because one of my users left out a seemingly insignificant fact when telling me their side of the story.

OMG! How many times has that happened to me?! "Are you SURE you didn't install anything new?" "Oh yes, I'm sure." Users LIE!!! :eek:

Dan

[Scrawner]

Guys,

After reading this thread and scratching my head for a while since this isn't a problem for me, I've come up with a few variables regarding the fill lag issue that I don't think have been explored yet. Maybe nothing, but I wanted to share in case it rings a bell with someone:

My setup uses a front projector (Panasonic AE900) and Harman Kardon (AV535) receiver. After calibration, turning off DD and putting the receiver in "2 channel" mode (which eliminates all audio processing), I've not observed any significant audio lag in fills or with the mic (there is still a few ms lag on the mic that's impossible to eliminate due in part to the fact that its a USB 1.1 microphone as mentioned below).

1) I noticed many of those reporting lots of fill lag have Onkyo receivers. You might want to research your receiver over at AVSForum.com; there are a number of threads regarding audio lag/sync issues for some Onkyo models. Example: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=875039

2) Those of you with the lag, have you looked at what USB device(s) and Hub(s) you have plugged into your console, and specifically what is plugged into where? It can make a subtle difference. Try unplugging everything except the Drums, and plug the drums directly into the console (without the hub) and see if the latency changes. (If you're really adventuresome, don't forget things like the HD-DVD player and/or Wireless Adaptor as well which use USB). It *shouldn't* make any noticable difference, but it's possible there is some combination causing a conflict. In practice I'd plug the MIC directly into the Xbox, without going through the hub to minimize that risk. See below below for my reasoning here.

3) Which USB hub came with your game? Several websites list a "ViPower" USB hub as the model that ships with the game. Mine came with a "GoodWay HU2K41N2" (http://www.goodway.com.tw/en/product3.asp?listid=1&id=4&subid=7&pid=677), of which I couldn't find any other reference to it's use with RockBand.

Why might this matter? Well, in theory it shouldn't, but USB as an interface is not well-suited for low latency/consistent data transfer to begin with and the Hub could have an effect. You can do some Googling on the subject to learn more, but in short there are lots of challenges with the move to USB in the professional audio recording arena due to unpredictible latency.

In short, your system has to "Poll" the attached devices one at a time for data at a defined interval, and with the addition of a USB Hub and the extra devices there is increased latency as other connected devices have to share the pathway and be 'polled' along with your drums -- even if they aren't being used. And, to make things a bit more complicated - the supplied Logitech Microphone from my testing a USB 1.1 device, not a USB 2.0 device as are the drums/guitar and the regular Xbox controllers! I don't know of any other USB 1.1 devices used by the Xbox. I'm simplifying here, but USB 1.1 is slower in throughput and can have higher latency than USB 2.0 devices. The USB hub has to do some extra processing on the USB 1.1 signal from the MIC before being sent up to the Xbox.

I'm speculating, but I think its *possible* that in certain combinations of devices and hubs and how actively they're being used there could be a latency issue. If the Mic is used with the Drums at the same time, the latency could fluctuate...it should be imperceptible, but a few MS could make or break you. There is also a few ms propagation delay in that the MIC cable is very long (at the limit of the USB standard). If you want to experiment, plug the Hub and devices into your computer and observe the response time of the MIC in an audio program while actively using the drums and guitar.

4) Finally, in addition to the video output you're using, what resolution are you at? (i.e. 1080i, 1080p, 720p). Each carries a slightly different processing burden on the Xbox and could conceivably impact latency in conjunction with what's being displayed at the time - you might try changing it for kicks. I use 720p component.

Anyhow, just some food for thought to add to the mix. The guy who did the experiment recording and observing the latency is on the right track, I would be interested to learn more about how his Xbox was setup during the test for some more clues.

Good luck!

[ggundamblue]

I got mine 2 days ago now. and ehh my strum bar seems to skip notes sometimes when i strum down so i have to strum up... i use a 36inch CRT Sanyo and a 5.1 900 watt Sony Home Theater system heres the link if u want to know what it is and what it looks like http://www.sonystyle.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?catalogId=10551&storeId=10151&langId=-1&productId=8198552921665065947

i use an optical cable for my ps3 and it seems when i play the drums i try and play what i hear and it just seems i miss everything. so it just doesn't feel right i dk if thats lag or what. but i try and play a long strum of notes like the yellow pad and every 3 notes and red one will come in and i will have to hit the red and yellow and red at the same time i just can't seem to do. i miss every single yellow it seems. does that sound like lag?

[BashBonham]

hi all...

seems its only my RED drum pad that experiences this lag... don't know why but is tehre anything that can be done to solve this? i don't think its an issue with latency/dolby in my case...

Here's my setup:

- HDMI from Xbox to HD TV (Sharp AQUOS)
- analog (red and white cables) from TV to Receiver/Amp (Pioneer)

[iocomposer]

Hi.
Just to add another setup to the choir:

Really bad latency with Dolby Digital turned on and off.

Video: X360 component out to Sony HS-20 projector (60ms latency)
Audio: X360 optical to Dolby DP562 decoder to a ridiculous audio system (trust me).

I tried plugging the drum controller directly into the x360 (bypassing hub). Nothing works so far...

[gsx95]

I have an HDMI cable to my Toshiba DLP television, and optical out to my Sony receiver, and when I opened and played Rockband with my family Christmas morning, it worked perfectly out of the box, no lag at all (and a working guitar). I only played band quickplay all day. Since then I have started solo and band tours, and now there is dramatic mic lag (with no hardware changes)! Of course, my guitar broke also (new one should be here tomorrow). The game was awesome a few days ago, now it is essentially unplayable. Turning of DD sounds bad, but does not help.

[Caulkmometer]

I just got an LCD yesterday and am having issues with the drums and especially the "free-form" sections not synching up at all.

It's a basic setup...

Sony 40V300 connected via HDMI at 1080p.

I'm gonna try dumbing down the resolution to see if that helps, but any other help would be appreciated. I'm gonna go start perusing through 21 pages of this.

[Caulkmometer]

FYI, I switched from the HDMI cable to the Component that came with my Xbox and everything is perfect. I'm too lazy to go through all the pages to see if there is an HDMI fix, so for now I'll just swap out the cables whenever I wanna play Call of Duty 4.

In case anyone cares, I set the lag offset to about 30ms for my LCD and it seems to work the best.

[Dystocia]

Have we had an official comment after the first "try turning off everything that makes your entertainment system next generation and just run into your TV at a lower resolution with no external speakers" suggestion?

I appreciate that Dagware and others are telling me why my buying a game that is unplayable out of the box is my fault. Really, thanks guys. But I need to know, from HMX, what the deal is.

If the answer is: "Oops, we probably should have mentioned that, on many next-generation set-ups, drums fills will not work properly and you'll need to cut your vocal audio off -- and even then, don't bother playing on Hard unless you plan to sing early. And we can't fix it." then fine -- let me know, so I can take the game back.

If the answer is the same as above, but with the additional: "But we can fix it, and we're working on a patch." then fine -- let me know, so I can let my return policy expire while I wait patiently for my game to be playable.

Being supportive of a company is fine, and HMX is a good one. But I don't work for HMX, I'm simply a consumer of their product. And silence for this long on a major issue is unacceptable for the developer of a $200 product.

[SOLIDAge]

So i just upgraded from a Sony CRT and Hardon Kardon Receiver to the same receiver and a new LCD 40V300.

It used to be Xbox to HK through HDMI and it then passed through and worked fine.

Now it's Xbox to V3000 then Optical output to HK receiver and tonight while playing for the first time on the new setup i noticed the Mic singing is INCREDIBLY LAGGED it's insane... the guitar and the drums are fine...but the singing is so off it's terrible

Any fix would be great.

[kidwei]

For the first day I had Rock Band for the 360, I was playing on a normal TV...everything worked great. Once I moved it into my room where I played it on a computer monitor and surround sound...everything went crappy. The guitar seems the same, but now I like suck at the drums. I'm not sure if it's some sort of lag or if it's the drums. It's very aggravating though because I just got to the point where I need to play on hard for all instruments, which is a little hard when the drums portion fail.
Has anyone had similar problems, and if so, any solutions?:confused:

Thanks.
I have the same exact problem. One EA rep even told me over the phone to calibrate the instruments separately on different gamertags. Of course, she had no idea what she was talking out, since you can only use one set of settings at once. It's definitely frustrating. I really hope HMX is paying attention as this could be rectified with a software patch. Then again, I'm not ruling out the possibility of this being a hardware issue.

[dagware]

I appreciate that Dagware and others are telling me why my buying a game that is unplayable out of the box is my fault. Really, thanks guys.

I never said anything of the sort. If you re-read my posts, you'll see that I have expressed my displeasure with Harmonix not responding to this issue, many times.

Since Harmonix has not answered the questions, my only purpose in this (and other) threads is to try and determine exactly what's happening, so we know what our options are. Read that again -- I think it's a worthwhile venture.

If we happen to prove that the problem is due to programming errors on Harmonix' part, then we would have ammunition to go to them and say "Fix this!" If we prove that the problem is due only to our hardware, then we know that Harmonix can't fix the problem with a patch, so waiting around for them to fix it won't help, so we would have to decide what we want to do from there. That could include buying new amps or cables or whatnot, or living with the problem, or just trashing the game. But at least we'd know for sure what our options were.

I just want to know what's really happening. Unfortunately, not everyone seems interested in trying to determine that. With a few simple experiments, we could have possibly answered the question once and for all. I guess it's more fun to piss and moan than it is to find the truth. (Sorry, I guess I just can't help myself. I think I'll go get therapy.)

Dan

[UvulaBob]

Having read through this Epic Level Thread, I'd like to toss a couple of questions out there to see if I'm in the same boat as everyone else.

1) When I do the calibration on my drums, hitting the pad in time with the click on the second screen gives me a result somewhere close to 100ms. When I hit the A button, it gives me close to zero. When I manually adjust it to somewhere between the two, I'm finally able to play intros to songs like Ballroom Blitz and Cherub Rock just fine. Is that to be expected?

2) When I'm able to drum to the pre-recorded bits of the song acceptably, the fills are lagged, but only a tiny bit. As in, the sound of the stick hitting the pad is still kind of in the air when the TV makes the noise. Is this the kind of lag people are tlaking about, or is it <HIT>.............<SOUND> style?

3) Also, what's the final word on how calibration settings are saved? Are they per profile, per instrument, per instrument per profile or some other combination? I feel like it's per profile, becuase if I have someone signed in on Guitar and someone on Drums, and one person calibrates, the other person gets a warning message about overriding the first person's settings. What I haven't tried yet is someone signing in, calibrating the drums, signing out, and then a second person signing in and calibrating the drums. I'll get around to doing that after I finish playing with this wacky cup and ball I got for Christmas.

Thanks!

[dagware]

1) When I do the calibration on my drums, hitting the pad in time with the click on the second screen gives me a result somewhere close to 100ms. When I hit the A button, it gives me close to zero. When I manually adjust it to somewhere between the two, I'm finally able to play intros to songs like Ballroom Blitz and Cherub Rock just fine. Is that to be expected?

I don't know if it's to be expected, but I had to manually adjust mine, because any of the other techniques produced unplayable results. For me, I finally decided to turn off DD and run in Direct mode on my amp, and then I can play at 0 calibration with only a small (but annoying) amount of lag during the fills.


2) When I'm able to drum to the pre-recorded bits of the song acceptably, the fills are lagged, but only a tiny bit. As in, the sound of the stick hitting the pad is still kind of in the air when the TV makes the noise. Is this the kind of lag people are tlaking about, or is it <HIT>.............<SOUND> style?

What you describe is what I can achieve if I run the RCA plugs from my PS3 to my mixing board and use headphones -- a very small delay. This is NOT what we are complaining about. The lag we're talking about ranges anywhere between a tenth and a quarter of a second, or longer. Very, very noticeable, and it makes it impossible to keep time while playing fills.

I have no idea about #3.

Dan

[Dystocia]

Unfortunately, not everyone seems interested in trying to determine that. With a few simple experiments, we could have possibly answered the question once and for all.

Dan

*Sigh*

Okay, here is my "experiment," thus far:

1 - I bought a game for $200 that had no warnings of there being any problems with next-gen A/V equipment.

2 - I hook it up to my Samsung 60" widescreen HD with Onkyo receiver, I calibrate my guitar and drums (about 30ms), and everything works great on pre-recorded stuff.

3 - BUT, the vocals are unusable because of lag and the drums are largely garbage (and certainly not fun) because of the lag during fills.

4 - I turn off all latency options on my Onkyo, and "dumb down" the game so that there is no DD. I fiddle around with every conceivable setting and bypass for, say, 10 hours in total. It makes no difference.

5 - I put in SingStar, and it works flawlessly. Huh.

I am pretty much done with experimenting on behalf of HMX. I can empirically state, with no margin for error, that I am DEFINITELY GETTING LAG. I don't care WHY anymore ... and after a month of no response to what information has been posted thus far by everyone else helping with the "experiment," I'm entitled to complain a bit ... I want to know if this is a problem that is going to be fixed or not.

Having said all that, we're going to slog through it as part of our New Years festivities. Testament to how good the game is, despite the fact that it's broken (new guitar came a week ago. the strum bar quit registering down strokes after approximately thirty minutes of game play. my third broken guitar thus far ... )

*sigh*

Happy New Year!

[dagware]

5 - I put in SingStar, and it works flawlessly. Huh.

It seems to me you mentioned that once before, and perhaps I glossed over it. I'm truly sorry if that's the case. If you have something that does work perfectly, then I don't see how the problem could be anything other than a software problem. This is the kind of information that is helpful.

So now I'm curious. What happens if you set all your RB calibrations to 0? Does the lag go away, or is it still there? If the game is unplayable at 0 calibration, just hit the drums during the lead-in, or go to the first drum tutorial where it tells you to hit each pad 5 times (or whatever).

If you set the calibration to 0 and the lag goes away (or *almost* completely goes away), then it sounds like they screwed up and are applying the calibrations that affect audio during the fills, which is of course wrong. If this is the case, then this obviously could be fixed by a patch.

I should note that this is NOT the problem I'm having. My problem occurs even with the calibration set at 0.

Dan

[TribalDancer]

Oh, see, Dan I thought you knew that.

We have Karaoke Revolution with NO LAG on our PS2. Haven't tried it on the PS3, but I can report back sometime.

But we still have mic lag on RB.

[dagware]

Oh, see, Dan I thought you knew that.

We have Karaoke Revolution with NO LAG on our PS2. Haven't tried it on the PS3, but I can report back sometime.

But we still have mic lag on RB.

How much lag are you experiencing? I know it's hard to quantify, but try. Is it a quick echo, almost like too much reverb? Or is it a longer delay? The reason I ask is that even without my amp in the mix, the best I can get still has that quick echo I mentioned. And If that's what you're referring to, then I wouldn't doubt it might have to do with software somehow.

However, when I throw my amp into the mix and turn on DD in both the software and my amp, then the delay gets much more pronounced. That's the delay I'm referring to when I say that taking the amp out of the mix will demonstrate it.

those weren't the clearest two paragraphs I've ever written, but I hope you can figure out what I meant. :p

Dan

[TribalDancer]

LOL, no I get what you mean. it is a little more than an echo, I guess if we're trying to quantify it that way. ;) It is the kind of thing where if you want to be spot on, you have to sing before the notes hit the bar, if you know what I mean.

I am able to get 100&#37; on a few songs on medium, with that in mind, but never on Hard, and I am sure forget Expert!

I wish I could actually quatify it for you, ya know...scientifically n' schtuff.

[DaveNagy]

I'm glad to see that this thread has gotten more civil again.

I think I need to clarify my position a bit. I'm not claiming that HMX is beyond suspicion here. Based on what I've read, it's very possible that there is a problem in their code and/or hardware. I was just trying to explain that a lot (not all) of the "evidence" that people were using to condemn HMX, really didn't hold up. It just muddied the waters. Other evidence may prove to be a different story.

For instance, I finally went back and read that post by the guy that recorded both his drum hits and the resulting sounds. The simple fact that he measured a delay doesn't mean much, but his claim that there is a different delay when hitting the drum during the intro to a song (10ms), as opposed to during a drum "fill"(100ms), is interesting and pretty damning. Those situations are identical from a hardware and software point of view, so if the game manages 10ms in one case, it should darn well manage it in all cases.

This is in regards to the drums. Digitizing vocals and sending them down a USB cable is a trickier thing, and I wouldn't be surprised if a bit more lag was created there. But, if SingStar can pull it off...

I too had a hell of a time trying to measure the "correct" value for that second calibration setting. (The one where you have to click a button in time with the beat.) I'd "take the test" and get widely varying results. Different controllers gave different values, and my wife got different results than I. I ended up just setting it manually. I figured that settings of 0ms and 0ms would be the "best" as far as not adding any extra lag to the fills, so I started with that. It wasn't playable, unfortunately. We had to play slightly "before the notes" in order to have it register. So, I slowly raised that second setting until things "felt" right. I think I ended up with settings of 0ms and 35ms.

I think that the "35ms" means that I don't see/hear the target notes until 35ms after the console sent them out to the TV and audio system, while the initial "0ms" means that my TV and audio system are pretty close to being equally laggy. (Both lag about 35ms.)

And yeah, I hear distracting lag when my wife plays a drum fill. Is this lag 35ms, or more than 35ms? I'm not sure. 35ms is only about a 30th of a second. Is that enough to screw up the "feel" of a song? Again, I'm not sure. If the drum-fill lag is only 35ms, then HMX hasn't done anything wrong. My system (including the drum set, the USB stuff, and the console) is just that laggy. Nothing that the game can do about a lot of that.) If the drum fill lag is more than 35ms in my case, then HMX might have screwed something up.

In any event, I would strongly request that HMX patch in a way to turn off the drum fill feature. There are people out there with laggy A/V systems, and for those people the drum fills are just a train wreck. They can ruin whole sections of a song. And yes, if game introduces additional lag on its own during fills, fix that too.

[DaveNagy]

Oh, if someone wants to measure their lag exactly, here's a relatively easy way to do it:

1) Plug a microphone into a computer. Perhaps a laptop? Perhaps the Rockband mic might work?

2) Put the mic where it can "hear" both your drumstick hitting the pad, and the drum noise coming out of your speakers.

3) Record some hits. During fill sections, and at the beginning of song. Perhaps during the drum tutorial.

4) View your recording in some sort of (free) audio editing software. Most of them will display where you are in a recording right down to the millisecond. Maybe something like this (http://audacity.sourceforge.net/).

5) Find both the pad "hit" and the drum sound in your recording, and note the distance between them.

[Talus]

Oh, if someone wants to measure their lag exactly, here's a relatively easy way to do it:

1) Plug a microphone into a computer. Perhaps a laptop? Perhaps the Rockband mic might work?

2) Put the mic where it can "hear" both your drumstick hitting the pad, and the drum noise coming out of your speakers.

3) Record some hits. During fill sections, and at the beginning of song. Perhaps during the drum tutorial.

4) View your recording in some sort of (free) audio editing software. Most of them will display where you are in a recording right down to the millisecond. Maybe something like this (http://audacity.sourceforge.net/).

5) Find both the pad "hit" and the drum sound in your recording, and note the distance between them.

And what do we do with that number?

[mattisart]

thanks!!!!!!!!!

[Bakkster]

And what do we do with that number?

That is your exact lag value for the drums. You can plug it into the lag calibration and this should be correct for you on pre-recorded drum fills. You can also compare values with/without DD enabled to determine exactly how much lag it adds.

Most importantly, if enough people get results like this, it will determine if the lag is the same for everyone (likely a software problem) or different for everybody (likely an A/V equipment problem).

[iamdancingbear]

I just wanted to post an update to my previous post (many pages back) in case it helps someone else to get a playable configuration.

I was previously using HDMI cable direct to my Visio LCD, and getting bad fill lag, bad vocal echo, and differences in calibration depending on calibrating with drums vs guitar.

My 360 also came with a cable setup for component video and audio, so I plugged the component video directly into the LCD, and have the audio going directly to my stereo, and now everything works just peachy with 0/0 calibration.

Unfortunately I can't plug in both the HDMI cable to the TV and run seperate audio to the stereo at the same time as a test, as only one cable adapter will plug in to the 360 at once. Also, I did not test plugging the component audio into the TV to see if that helps, and now it's too late as I finally got the component cable snaked through the wall to the TV and the audio won't reach it now.

Anyway, hopefully that helps someone else to have a playable system... try using the component cables instead of HDMI. Inicidentally, this is Suggestion #3 in the first post of the thread.

Greg

[DaveNagy]

Right. Having this number would just let us talk about things a bit more precisely, and let people compare and contrast what they are experiencing.

If the lag is different when playing an "intro" as opposed to a "fill", then that would suggest there is a software problem that causes lag in certain circumstances.

If the lag is around twice as long during a fill, as compared to during an intro, then that might support the theory that the software is intentionally lagging the fill sounds, using your calibration settings. This would also count as a software problem, because the game shouldn't be purposely lagging anything when playing "live" sound.

If the lag is always about the same as the value you are using in your calibration settings, then the software is probably working correctly, and any lag is due to your hardware.

(Yeah, I know there are two calibration settings. I'll have to think about how the two values interact to "define" the audio lag in the system. Let's see... Off the top of my head, I think you'd want to take the second calibration setting, and subtract the first setting from it, as long as the first setting is a positive value.)

Let's try that out to see if it makes sense. Let's say your calibration settings are 20ms, and 50ms, respectively. That first value means (I think) that your video is 20ms slower than your audio, and that the audio needs to be purposely delayed by 20ms so that the video and audio are lined up right. That second value means that, after being "lined up" by the first setting, the total lag in your system is 50ms. Together, I think means that your video is "naturally" lagged by 50ms, and your audio is "naturally" lagged by 30ms. (That first (20ms) setting serves to give your audio some additional lag, so it matches the 50ms lag that your TV is introducing.) So yeah, second-setting-minus-first-setting seems to work.

If the first setting is a negative value, like -20ms, then I think we just ignore it for the purposes of calculating the audio lag. A negative number means that the video is being intentionally lagged to line up with really slow audio. We really don't care about that in this context. It's all about the audio.

I suppose I should put my money where my mouth is, and try this measurement myself, huh?

[DaveNagy]

My 360 also came with a cable setup for component video and audio, so I plugged the component video directly into the LCD, and have the audio going directly to my stereo, and now everything works just peachy with 0/0 calibration.

By "peachy", do you mean that drum fills are not lagged? That you hear the sound coming out of the speakers more or less exactly when you whack the drum during a fill? Also, are your vocals delayed at all?

(I believe you can connect both the HDMI and the component+audio cable simultaneously. You just have to do a bit of surgery on the component connector. But it sounds like you are okay using component anyway?)

[iamdancingbear]

By "peachy", do you mean that drum fills are not lagged? That you hear the sound coming out of the speakers more or less exactly when you whack the drum during a fill? Also, are your vocals delayed at all?


Yes, the drum fills are right on time. I havent done a lot with the vocals, but from the little I've heard my wife messing with them, the vocal lag is gone as well.

[jpb1977]

I've actually gone a whole month thinking that the mic delay was to avoid feedback, and that the drum fill delay was just a case of ps3 hardware not being able to be dead on.

If any of you do you computer recording, good (not great) audio interface drivers through USB are about around the 6-9 millisecond mark, so I figured I guess that is the deal.

Then I go on youtube to watch some vids of new songs, and realize that guys are throwing in fills that are IN TIME with the rest of the song. Not at my house!!!

I WAS using HDMI for video and audio to the TV, with the LCD TV calibration preset and then sending the audio through a line-out to my stereo receiver. Lag city!!!

Without doubt, after reading through these posts I believe we can confirm that HDMI handling of audio is laggy.

SO, I plugged in the analog connectors for the audio and ran them straight to the stereo receiver. I also sent the calibration values to 0/0. The result??? MUCH BETTER, but not perfect.

What's hard to say is whether not having calibration set properly (manually I landed at about 30 milliseconds) affects gameplay. With 0/0 and the sound turned OFF I was able to play to 98% on a hard difficult drum song.... but what happens when the action really gets intense? Will I need that absolute dead-on calibration???

HELP US HARMONIX!!!

[Drumlag]

In my case, HDMI audio is not the culprit. I've tried two different scenarios...

1) HDMI Video out of the PS3 to a Panasonic AE900 720p LCD projector, and optical audio to a Pioneer amplifier. Big time lag with Dolby Digital on and off. With proper calibration, I can get the drums dead-nuts while the song is playing, but drum fills are WAY off.

2) Composite video to a Toshiba RPTV, and stereo audio (2 RCAs) directly to the TV -- completely bypassing the amplifier.

I'd say #2 is slightly better, but still terribly laggy. So much so, that I'm contemplating returning this game -- as fun as it is otherwise. The laggy fills really ruin the fun for me.

What's got me confused is all of these Youtube videos I've seen where the drummers can actually play a fill IN TIME. Is it possible that some of us may have defective hardware? If this was in fact a software issue, I'd expect all of us to have the same problem.

[Bakkster]

(I believe you can connect both the HDMI and the component+audio cable simultaneously. You just have to do a bit of surgery on the component connector. But it sounds like you are okay using component anyway?)

Depends on the model. This did not work on mine, as the component cable has has the metal casing bulked up to prevent this hack. I had to buy the ridiculously overpriced audio adapter :(


I WAS using HDMI for video and audio to the TV, with the LCD TV calibration preset and then sending the audio through a line-out to my stereo receiver. Lag city!!!

Without doubt, after reading through these posts I believe we can confirm that HDMI handling of audio is laggy.

I'm not convinced it's purely with the HDMI audio, as my computer monitor can play the HDMI audio with no lag. I'm pretty sure that most consumer HDMI audio equipment just adds a delay in the D/A conversion.

[DaveNagy]

Well, lots of interesting info has shown up in the last page. Iamdancingbear is reporting drum fills that are "right on time" for him now. That's encouraging because gives us some hope that the game itself is not laggy, as long as you hook everything up "correctly", and your A/V system isn't lagtastic in it's own right.

Dancingbear (Greg) has a 360. Has anyone with a PS3 also experianced "lag free" fills? I suppose it's possible that the PS3 (or the PS3 version of RB) is uniquely cursed, lagwise. Can anyone disprove this hypothesis?

Greg, are you using the 360's optical audio out, or the analog stereo outs, when you experience the lack of lag?

jpb1977: Why don't you try "properly" calibrating the game, and see if the drum-fill lag gets worse. It may not, and if it doesn't there's no sense in you suffering with less-than-ideal-settings. That said, I doubt that your settings could be off by too much, since you are able to hit 98%.

[jpb1977]

Perhaps I didn't mention... I did also run the game 'calibrated' and I would say the lag was equal to that of the 'LCD TV' preset.

Just watched another slew of videos on youtube - drummers dropping fills dead on!!! I'd say less than 3 milliseconds if any!

Doesn't really bother me for the vocals. It still registers correctly, and the delay is a common vocal effect anyway...

Is PS3 the culprit???

jpb

[Bakkster]

Just watched another slew of videos on youtube - drummers dropping fills dead on!!! I'd say less than 3 milliseconds if any!

If you can tell the difference between 0ms and 3ms separation of audio, you must be some sort of superhuman.

[jpb1977]

I am Spartacus. ;)

While I won't say that I can hear the difference between 0 and 3 milliseconds, I know from using software instruments while recording music that I can hear the difference between lets say 4 and 8 milliseconds, and can certainly hear the difference between NO lag and a even a little (3-10 milliseconds).

Going to do the 'black magic' calibration AGAIN tonight, because the reality is a system which is locked to the notes as opposed lag-free rolls is more important. (or else I'm making mistakes on fast rolls etc..)

jpb

[jfjohnny5]

After reading all 24 pages (gasp!) of this thread, I'm ready to post my issues/findings.

First my setup:
PS3 40Gb
Yamaha YHT-585 Receiver
Panasonic 42" Plasma
running component video and optical audio to the receiver
then component video to the TV

The PS3 and the receiver are brand new (less than 2 weeks old) and the TV is just over two years old

I initially had issues with guitar and drums not using the same input lag settings. I was at around 80ms for drums and 0ms for guitar. I eventually tried turning off DD within RB and input lag for both instruments went to 0ms and played well (except for drum fills). That's due to the fact that I play guitar visually, but the drums by ear. So the DD within RB was introducing around 80ms of audio lag.

Now I've been tweaking all kinds of settings to work on the Drum Fill lag. I have disabled DD in Rock Band and in the PS3 itself. I have also made sure the receiver is in "Straight" mode i.e. no additional processing within the unit. I also checked and confirmed the lag setting within the receiver is at 0. With all of that accomplished, here's what I found:

The Drum Fills are still horribly laggy, HOWEVER, there is almost no lag (but still a little) if I hit any of the pads BEFORE the song starts. I have not tried the mic on anything above Medium. So sorry for not having any results to share there.

Now here's what I find interesting... Different lag results before the song versus in a "fill". And also, if the audio lag was produced systemically, then I should also hear or see a lag anywhere else in the PS3. So I decided to try flipping back and forth in the PS3 system menus. It makes a clicking noise each time I move to a different setting. Fundamentally it's the same as hitting a drum pad. I press a button and immediately see and hear a response. The drum pad really is just a glorified controller. Yet if I hit one of it's pads (buttons) and only during a drum fill, there is a delay.

It really seems to be a software issue. Now I have NOT yet tried connecting to a lagless speaker system (such as a boombox or PC speakers). But I think the different lag results before/during a track are rather telling. Still a mystery is why some people have no issues at all with calibration or drum fill lag.

I hope this helps a solution come up soon.

[Nainz]

The Drum Fills are still horribly laggy, HOWEVER, there is almost no lag (but still a little) if I hit any of the pads BEFORE the song starts. I have not tried the mic on anything above Medium. So sorry for not having any results to share there.

I noticed that too. I have ZERO lag if I hit the drums during the intro of a song, but the drums are a good quarter-second behind during the drum fills. It's obviously not an issue with my receiver or TV.

The singing, however, is way behind at all times.

[dagware]

I noticed that too. I have ZERO lag if I hit the drums during the intro of a song, but the drums are a good quarter-second behind during the drum fills.

Man, that just makes my head spin! I mean, if some people have the problem and some don't, then how could it be a software issue? Yet what you've just described can only be attrubited to a software issue, as far as I can imagine.

I have to say that I'm about ready to give up, personally. I'm out of ideas.

I'd be tempted to say that we should just wait for Harmonix to say something about this, however, I'm not convinced they think it's an issue. Other than the first post in this thread (I think it was the first post), and perhaps one other post in this thread, I don't remember having read anything from Harmonix that tells me they're working on this. I read a post from one of the Harmonix guys in a Vocals thread where he said that this thread we're in right now is the place for people to go to be told how to solve their issues (or something like that). I came away with the impression that they don't monitor this thread anymore -- they think we're helping each other with calibration and everything's fine. I hope I'm wrong...

Anyone got a recent post from anyone at Harmonix on this issue? If not, any ideas of how we might get them to say whether they think it's an issue or not?

Dan

[Drumlag]

Hmm, a PS3 problem? Are there any PS3 owners that can report a lag-free game?

I feel I've eliminated the possibility that the problem lies with my A/V equipment. That leaves only 2 other scenarios -- game hardware or software. If the problem is PS3 specific, that lends credibility to the theory that software is the culprit.

If there are PS3 owners with zero lag, I'll be really confused.

[Bakkster]

Is everyone having the problem were they have no lag before the song starts but do have lag in fills using a PS3? Are they all the same PS3 model (aka, could it be some piece of hardware unique to that model causing the problems)?

If we get this, we can then forward the information to HMX, who can then identify the issue.

[DaveNagy]

Yeah, hearing a difference between before-song lag, and drum-fill lag is weird... That's gotta be the game screwing up in some fashion. I'd be tempted to think that you guys are making things up, but there's too many people telling the same story. :)

I wonder if this particular issue is unique to the PS3, and/or common to all PS3s. I have a 360, and I haven't noticed any difference in the lag in those two parts of a song, but I can't say that I've paid a lot of attention either. It's so much more convenient to test at the beginning of a song, rather than playing far enough to earn a fill...

Hmmm, now that I think about it, I'm not sure we should be using that before-song interval for our "testing" at all, convenient as it is. Who knows how HMX programmed the calibration behavior in the intro? In some ways it's like a fill (where audio calibration delays should be off), and in other ways it's like a regular part of the song (where the calibration delay should be on). If I were programming it, I'd try to make it so the drum sample sounds are never affected by the calibration delay, while the recorded instrument tracks themselves are always affected.

I'm sure this has been answered already, but is anyone running settings of 0ms/0ms, and still hearing the difference between intros and fills?

[jpb1977]

I'd love to think that the delay we are hearing is due to the software incorrectly adjusting (delaying) the fills just like the audio during the song.

HOWEVER even with a 0,0 setting (theoretically no adjustment or insertion of delay) I still get lag.

I do think this is a solvable issue IF you can get rid of the inherent delay in your a/v system.

jpb

[Bakkster]

I'd love to think that the delay we are hearing is due to the software incorrectly adjusting (delaying) the fills just like the audio during the song.

HOWEVER even with a 0,0 setting (theoretically no adjustment or insertion of delay) I still get lag.

Are you getting lag all the time at 0ms, or just during fills (aka, not before the beginning of the song)?

[dagware]

Are you getting lag all the time at 0ms, or just during fills (aka, not before the beginning of the song)?

I have a PS3. I am using 0ms. I get the lag all the time -- minor, but enough to make it hard to keep in the groove during a fill. The first time I noticed it was in the tutorial that has you hit each pad 4 times. This was the very first thing I did when I got the game, so I've noticed it from the beginning.

I'll be honest here and say that I can't tell for sure if it's the same in each of the spots or not. I just know it's off.

Dan

[jjmj427]

I also have a PS3 and the lag is terrible. :(

I am running an Onkyo Receiver TX-SR805 for audio and video switching and running a panasonic projector. All connections are over HDMI cables. The receiver that I am running has the newer version HDMI 1.3 for higher bandwith. So I am thinking that the Receiver should not be the problem.

I was playing RB at a local store and was playing on hard and a few songs on expert and now I cannot even get through a song on medium. The lag on the drums and mic is horrific :( and it doesn't matter how much I calibrate it :confused:.

I really liked playing the demo out at the store, so I hope Harmonix is able to get this resolved.

Cheers,
JJ

[drvornoff]

I have the lag too, for vocals on the PS3. It had gotten worse when I turned on the Dolby setting, so I turned that off again and it's better but still there. (Shame, too, the Dolby really makes the rest of the audio/SFX come alive in surround sound). The lag is just too distracting for everyone playing.

[xsoulbrothax]

Argh. Messing around with the 360 version... I've got component, HDMI and VGA to play with here.

HDMI + TV speakers= 100-110ms lag calibrated.. the songs itself are perfect, but the fill notes are behind by a heartbeat. It sucks, and is really distracting.

VGA + audio running into my PC speakers = 30ms lag calibrated. The fills and all are close enough to feel perfect.

I think my TV is one of the ones that throws in artificial audio lag to match up with the video or something. I just tried flipping audio from RAW to PCM, and it seems to have cut it down to 50-60ms, but it's still definitely noticably behind the PC speaker setup.

Just tried Component + TV speakers, and it came out 30ms, ~35 w/ DD on.. argh. I think my TV's automatically trying to 'process' digital signals like HDMI somehow?

[tokoriki]

I am a PS3 owner with a Sumsung Plasma and Sony stereo receiver. I've had no issues with drum lag and the auto calibration worked fine for the instruments. However, I had a pretty bad mic delay that made singing unworkable. I turned off the Dolby and made a few other changes that didn't seem to improve things much. I heard the lag through the internal TV speakers and through the receiver. Today I bought an optical cable and am now running optical audio from the PS3 to my stereo receiver. I'm still using HDMI for video from the PS3 to the TV. This eliminated the mic lag for me and vocals sound great!:D Hope this may help others as well.

[jpb1977]

Thanks tokoriki - if only my older ProLogic II receiver had optical... :(