Response From RED OCTANE (Les Paul Compat / PS3)

[monstrado]

Here is a response I got from Red Octane, Looks like there maybe a fix in development....

Hello,

Thank you for writing us.

We are aware of the issue at hand and are looking into it. It was not something purposely designed for, but a situation that has arisen since the release of RockBand. Please have patience.

Regards,

RedOctane Customer Support

[MidwestDrummer]

Well at least they didn't just give you the verbal middle finger. Sounds like they're considering mending a broken fence.

[SoulScreme]

Better than the responses from HMX.

[nicko68]

That would be so awesome of Red Octane to help out. I know they're owned by Activision, and Activision and EA are fierce competitors, but I think it would be amazing PR for Activision and Red Octane if they supported RB.

It's too bad RO couldn't help HMX with the instruments originally, RO makes good stuff. The Les Paul is awesome.

[oddroot]

a glimmer of hope...

[Bakkster]

That would be so awesome of Red Octane to help out. I know they're owned by Activision, and Activision and EA are fierce competitors, but I think it would be amazing PR for Activision and Red Octane if they supported RB.

It's too bad RO couldn't help HMX with the instruments originally, RO makes good stuff. The Les Paul is awesome.

Agreed. This is good news, though. I wonder what made RO change its mind?

[SoKGiX]

nice, i hope it works out for u guys

[DivaMom]

I wonder if that means they might also fix it so we can use the Strat for GH3?
*crosses fingers*

[BannSidhe]

It's too bad RO couldn't help HMX with the instruments originally, RO makes good stuff. The Les Paul is awesome.

If you discount all the issues people are having with it? The contacts not meeting correctly, etc.

[AdamBomb629]

Better than the responses from HMX.

Wow, that's out of line. Since it appears you haven't been an active member of this forum, you don't really know what "Harmonix's response" to things have been in the past.

It would be in Red Octane's best interest to respond and would make them look like heroes to do this. You have to understand, prior to this, it was Red Octane/Activision's stance to not play nice. After all, Harmonix created Guitar Hero, got bought out by MTV, and then went to partner with EA. This was bad news for Activision/Red Octane. THey were left holding the Guitar Hero "bag" without their designers. While I'm sure they didn't intentionally disable the Les Paul to work with Rock Band, it would not be in their interest to help Rock Band/Harmonix succeed (they are competition). However, by fixing this now, they look like champs and Harmonix/EA are left looking like they were lying the whole time. It's a win/win for RO/Activision at this point.

[SoulScreme]

Wow, that's out of line. Since it appears you haven't been an active member of this forum, you don't really know what "Harmonix's response" to things have been in the past.

It would be in Red Octane's best interest to respond and would make them look like heroes to do this. You have to understand, prior to this, it was Red Octane/Activision's stance to not play nice. After all, Harmonix created Guitar Hero, got bought out by MTV, and then went to partner with EA. This was bad news for Activision/Red Octane. THey were left holding the Guitar Hero "bag" without their designers. While I'm sure they didn't intentionally disable the Les Paul to work with Rock Band, it would not be in their interest to help Rock Band/Harmonix succeed (they are competition). However, by fixing this now, they look like champs and Harmonix/EA are left looking like they were lying the whole time. It's a win/win for RO/Activision at this point.

Excuse me, but I have a right to an opinion like everybody else. The fact of the matter is that Harmonix continues to use this canned response about the Les Paul not complying to controller standards on PS3. This doesn't make sense since the Les Paul works to control all aspects of the PS3, including the XMB. However, Rock Band doesn't support the use of the SIXAXIS. So who is the one not complying with controller standards? Oh, and the existence of a standard for guitar controllers is a myth. If it existed it would have been set by the Les Paul being the first guitar on the PS3.

[Frederf]

While Red Octane probably made the PS3 Les Paul (or someone closely related) and it's great and all that they are diligently "on" the problem.

What can they do? They can't really patch the controller. The best they could do is figure the problem out, contact HMX, and work with them for a software update. Right?

[jq715861]

Agreed. This is good news, though. I wonder what made RO change its mind?

It must be because they realized it would help their sales if they went out of their way to help make the guitar compatible.

[TigerT07]

That would be so awesome of Red Octane to help out. I know they're owned by Activision, and Activision and EA are fierce competitors, but I think it would be amazing PR for Activision and Red Octane if they supported RB.

It's too bad RO couldn't help HMX with the instruments originally, RO makes good stuff. The Les Paul is awesome.

yea i totally agree with you..the Les Paul is great and idk about the other instruments cause i dont own the game yet :(

[nicko68]

If you discount all the issues people are having with it? The contacts not meeting correctly, etc.

I have heard some people having issues with that, but my Les Paul for the Wii has had zero issues so far.

[jq715861]

I have heard some people having issues with that, but my Les Paul for the Wii has had zero issues so far.

People with the Wii didn't have any problems basically.

When I had the problem out of the box for the PS3 i looked at the GH boards and it was littered with complaints for the PS3 and 360. There are easy ways to get around it. I was able to make mine work perfectly even though the lag sometimes is still a bit of an issue.

[Credge]

Wow, that's out of line. Since it appears you haven't been an active member of this forum, you don't really know what "Harmonix's response" to things have been in the past.

That's a fallacious statement that assumes that one only has knowledge of something if they have met certain requirements in regards to where they have been.


I have heard some people having issues with that, but my Les Paul for the Wii has had zero issues so far.

I was really hoping Rock Band would have made it to the Wii. It seems like a perfect fit, with Wii being all about party games.

[AdamBomb629]

Excuse me, but I have a right to an opinion like everybody else. The fact of the matter is that Harmonix continues to use this canned response about the Les Paul not complying to controller standards on PS3. This doesn't make sense since the Les Paul works to control all aspects of the PS3, including the XMB. However, Rock Band doesn't support the use of the SIXAXIS. So who is the one not complying with controller standards? Oh, and the existence of a standard for guitar controllers is a myth. If it existed it would have been set by the Les Paul being the first guitar on the PS3.

You're misunderstanding what I am saying.

Harmonix has to make the response about "open standards" etc. because it is up to Red Octane/Actvision to make the move. Harmonix would make every controller work if they could, but presumably, up to this point, Red Octane has kept things under wraps. I'm glad they are moving on it now, but you have to remember, this would not be to their advantage to just say, "Sure Harmonix, we know you are our direct competition now, we'd love to help your game succeed." However, now that "Harmonix looks bad" (so to speak), it makes Red Octane and Activision look great by coming to the table and being the good guys.

As for the standard controller, I have no idea why that doesn't work.

[nicko68]

People with the Wii didn't have any problems basically.

Other than mono sound, that is. :)



When I had the problem out of the box for the PS3 i looked at the GH boards and it was littered with complaints for the PS3 and 360. There are easy ways to get around it. I was able to make mine work perfectly even though the lag sometimes is still a bit of an issue.

I don't understand why the Wii version would be exempt from the controller pin problem though, You'd think the neck assembly is the same across the board, and only the controller aspect is different.

I could see why the lag issue might not apply, though, considering the Wii guitar USES the Wiimote. Some people *****ed about that, but I think it was smart (perhaps it was even mandatory).

[Bakkster]

As for the standard controller, I have no idea why that doesn't work.

I thought it was because HMX wanted you to play with a guitar controller, because that's the point. Also, the standard controller is intended for use with the mic.

[AdamWill]

You're misunderstanding what I am saying.

Harmonix has to make the response about "open standards" etc. because it is up to Red Octane/Actvision to make the move. Harmonix would make every controller work if they could, but presumably, up to this point, Red Octane has kept things under wraps. I'm glad they are moving on it now, but you have to remember, this would not be to their advantage to just say, "Sure Harmonix, we know you are our direct competition now, we'd love to help your game succeed." However, now that "Harmonix looks bad" (so to speak), it makes Red Octane and Activision look great by coming to the table and being the good guys.

As for the standard controller, I have no idea why that doesn't work.

What do you mean by 'under wraps', and how's it different from HMX's behaviour?

No-one publishes what their controller does, AFAIK. There's no PDF "Les Paul Information Sheet" available from RO or PDF "Fender Information Sheet" available from HMX. Everyone is not saying anything about how their controller works; HMX as much as RO. The point is that HMX is trying to hide the basic issue - no-one really bothered to do anything about compatibility with anyone else - behind a wave of 'open standards' bullcrap (we're perfect, it's everyone else's fault!), whereas RO is at least acknowledging that it's a problem and ideally it should be fixed. Which is why RO's response is better than HMX's.

btw, it is not hard to figure out what a controller does. quote a lot of enthusiasts could probably figure out exactly what both guitars do just by opening them up, looking at the PCB and experimenting a bit. I'm sure it wouldn't be beyond HMX and RO to do this with each other's guitars, if they could be bothered.

[Credge]

(perhaps it was even mandatory).

Well, having the innards of a wii-mote is required, but having a wii-mote itself is not... however that wasn't the design choice they made. All that really has to be done is for the console to recognize the control as a wii-mote. It doesn't need anything else aside from that.

[jq715861]

Other than mono sound, that is. :)



I don't understand why the Wii version would be exempt from the controller pin problem though, You'd think the neck assembly is the same across the board, and only the controller aspect is different.

I could see why the lag issue might not apply, though, considering the Wii guitar USES the Wiimote. Some people *****ed about that, but I think it was smart (perhaps it was even mandatory).

Oh yeah, I forgot about that mono sound issue. :D

[logicalnoise]

What do you mean by 'under wraps', and how's it different from HMX's behaviour?

No-one publishes what their controller does, AFAIK. There's no PDF "Les Paul Information Sheet" available from RO or PDF "Fender Information Sheet" available from HMX. Everyone is not saying anything about how their controller works; HMX as much as RO. The point is that HMX is trying to hide the basic issue - no-one really bothered to do anything about compatibility with anyone else - behind a wave of 'open standards' bullcrap (we're perfect, it's everyone else's fault!), whereas RO is at least acknowledging that it's a problem and ideally it should be fixed. Which is why RO's response is better than HMX's.

btw, it is not hard to figure out what a controller does. quote a lot of enthusiasts could probably figure out exactly what both guitars do just by opening them up, looking at the PCB and experimenting a bit. I'm sure it wouldn't be beyond HMX and RO to do this with each other's guitars, if they could be bothered.

it's an open standard as in you contact HMX ask them what they did and they tell you. It's also open in the sense that they won't be mad if a company like TAC backward engineers a 3rd party controller. just as long as it isn't identical to teh strat since HMX has a deal with fender.

[Credge]

btw, it is not hard to figure out what a controller does. quote a lot of enthusiasts could probably figure out exactly what both guitars do just by opening them up, looking at the PCB and experimenting a bit. I'm sure it wouldn't be beyond HMX and RO to do this with each other's guitars, if they could be bothered.

I'm not sure about controls now, but they buttons used to be triggered by a shorting of the circuit. This could be the opposite now, though, as the completion of a circuit to a point can essentially accomplish the same thing, and I think this is the case for the strum bar, as the completion of the circuit is what would trigger it... which is probably why some peoples strum bars break on the down stroke.

This is all speculation though.

[Bakkster]

What do you mean by 'under wraps', and how's it different from HMX's behaviour?

HMX stated: "We will work with anyone to get their peripherals to work with Rock Band."

RO stated: "You can't use any controller that isn't made by Red Octane."

It may be he-said-she-said, but the onus pre-release was on RO and they didn't act. Now the onus is on HMX, and we'll see what happens.

[monstrado]

I think this is probably the best response about the situation yet. I can only hope this actually goes through :)

[PinkFloyd]

this is the kind of response we want. take notes HMX, MTV & EA!

[AdamWill]

I'm not sure about controls now, but they buttons used to be triggered by a shorting of the circuit. This could be the opposite now, though, as the completion of a circuit to a point can essentially accomplish the same thing, and I think this is the case for the strum bar, as the completion of the circuit is what would trigger it... which is probably why some peoples strum bars break on the down stroke.

This is all speculation though.

The mechanics of how triggers are achieved are not the important thing in this context, but the actual signals that are sent back to the console (i.e. what button press does each fret button map to, what axis / buttons is / are used for the strum bar, what combination of controls does the guitar send constantly to signal that it is in fact a guitar, etc).

[AdamWill]

it's an open standard as in you contact HMX ask them what they did and they tell you. It's also open in the sense that they won't be mad if a company like TAC backward engineers a 3rd party controller. just as long as it isn't identical to teh strat since HMX has a deal with fender.

Sadly, neither of those things are the definition of 'open standard'. Perhaps you should look it up.

Additionally, that's not what HMX is actually saying. They've never quite said that there's an open standard for guitar controllers, because they know there isn't. What they actually mean every time they talk about an 'open standard' is the overall standard for controllers on each system. As I've explained several times, this is a complete red herring, as the important point for a guitar controller is *exactly how* the controller maps the controls available from the general standard. You can have two guitars that are both using the standard controls available on PS3 or 360 yet which are utterly incompatible with each other, as appears to be the case here.

[oddroot]

this is the kind of response we want. take notes HMX, MTV & EA!

yeah it's too bad RO/Actvision/whoever from GH3 has been totally useless addressing all the other issues of GH3, mono wii sound, guitar issues, PS3 lag issues and network problems :D

[whofan]

Doesn't anybody else here think that they may be just blowing smoke up all of your arses?

Maybe I'm being too pessimistic, but this is not happening. RO is going to state to the few who email them that they're working on something, but probably aren't. In time they may respond to follow up emails with something like "We tried but couldn't get the LP to work with RB because HMX blocked it in the programming". Free PR!

People would see it as RO being the white knight but being blocked by HMX.

I call this a bluff and state that RO, in all likelyhood, are not doing a damn thing except sitting back and counting their money

[monstrado]

Doesn't anybody else here think that they may be just blowing smoke up all of your arses?

Maybe I'm being too pessimistic, but this is not happening. RO is going to state to the few who email them that they're working on something, but probably aren't. In time they may respond to follow up emails with something like "We tried but couldn't get the LP to work with RB because HMX blocked it in the programming". Free PR!

People would see it as RO being the white knight but being blocked by HMX.

I call this a bluff and state that RO, in all likelyhood, are not doing a damn thing except sitting back and counting their money

yeah I'm sure this guy getting paid $11.50 an hour is counting his wads of $1.00 bills and laughing in our face as he lies to us.

Not likely, but anything is possible.

[whofan]

yeah I'm sure this guy getting paid $11.50 an hour is counting his wads of $1.00 bills and laughing in our face as he lies to us.

Not likely, but anything is possible.

I'm not talking about individuals here, I'm talking about the company bigwigs. The guy responding to the email is undoubtedly just handing out the company line (much like the HMX people are). These responses aren't generated by individuals, they're generated by one person in the PR department.

[monstrado]

I'm not talking about individuals here, I'm talking about the company bigwigs. The guy responding to the email is undoubtedly just handing out the company line (much like the HMX people are). These responses aren't generated by individuals, they're generated by one person in the PR department.

Can you confirm this? I mean, if this wasn't true the guy would have just said that it's up to HMX.

It's not like I can email him back with a response, it's a distribution group email address.

[nicko68]

It would have been nice if the strum and frets just mapped to standard controller buttons and each game had a controller config screen like PC games. Forget axes positions to tell what kind of device is plugged in, if it's a controller-compatible device, it doesn't matter.

[Ultrace]

I wonder if that means they might also fix it so we can use the Strat for GH3?
*crosses fingers*
Don't hold your breath, the opening screen for GH3 still expressly forbids playing it with anything other than an "authorized" Activision/RO controller.

[monstrado]

Don't hold your breath, the opening screen for GH3 still expressly forbids playing it with anything other than an "authorized" Activision/RO controller.

what if Activition/RO authorize the strat after a close examination? hmm?

[whofan]

Can you confirm this? I mean, if this wasn't true the guy would have just said that it's up to HMX.

It's not like I can email him back with a response, it's a distribution group email address.

Did you read my post as to the possible reason why they're saying this?

It makes them look good while making HMX look bad, even if they're not doing anything. Nobody here can really confirm if they're actually working on the problem or not. Call me pessimistic, but I don't believe they really are, but they would want people to believe that they are.

It's simple PR, you want people to believe that your company cares about their customers so that you can pull potential customers away from the competition. EVERY single company does it.

Anyways, my point remains valid. Unless the RO people show me every single step they've taken (or actually repair the "problem") I won't believe a damn thing they say about it. It's not their game, why would they do anything to help it?

[SoulScreme]

Did you read my post as to the possible reason why they're saying this?

It makes them look good while making HMX look bad, even if they're not doing anything. Nobody here can really confirm if they're actually working on the problem or not. Call me pessimistic, but I don't believe they really are, but they would want people to believe that they are.

It's simple PR, you want people to believe that your company cares about their customers so that you can pull potential customers away from the competition. EVERY single company does it.

Anyways, my point remains valid. Unless the RO people show me every single step they've taken (or actually repair the "problem") I won't believe a damn thing they say about it. It's not their game, why would they do anything to help it?

Why hate on RO so much? Isn't it equally possible that Harmonix/EA made it so that the LP won't work so that when their instruments come out for sale they sell more?

[whofan]

It's entirely possible. I'm not hating on Red Octane, what I'm trying to do is to provide a reality check for everyone who is going "Oh wow! Look at Red Octane! They listen to us! They'll get the job done! Yay Red Octane!"

Seriously, in a perfect world I can see them doing this. HOWEVER, we don't live in a perfect world, we live in a world of competition. Red Octane/Activision are in direct competition with Harmonix/EA, anything they actually do to help the competition is going to, necessarily, hurt their bottom line, not something I'm sure they're keen on doing.

PR, on the other hand, can really help them because they can just say that they're working on the problem and leave it at that. After some time has passed they can just say they couldn't do it because of the "evil harmonix bastards". It's as easy as that.

It could happen, but I most certainly wouldn't hold my breath over it

[Bluvox]

It would have been nice if the strum and frets just mapped to standard controller buttons and each game had a controller config screen like PC games. Forget axes positions to tell what kind of device is plugged in, if it's a controller-compatible device, it doesn't matter.

I posted this somewhere else, but the logic for doing this is incrementally more difficult. You have to assign each button a variable, and instead of having clean logic you have a variable that could introduce more bugs, and require more memory. Remember, consoles are a hardware limited box where the developers are trying to do the most they can with the little they are given. Thus using memory for variables like button mappings reduces the memory available for other aspects of the game.

To the others that say "there is no standard on the PS3", what I'd assume that Harmonix is saying here is that there is a "Universal Standard" for recognizing a controller - that one of the analogs is set to a specific number. Since Harmonix never made a PS3 controller before leaving the partnership with Red Octane, they continued what would be the "norm" for controllers and used this standard that was set on the PS2 and 360. If Red Octane did something "different" from what they had agreed on with Harmonix at the time, there is no way for Harmonix to know that until they actually saw the unit.

That said, I don't see how Red Octane could "fix" this with a software patch, unless they had a flash update for the Les Paul itself to make that analog report a specific number. But here's hoping for the best! This petty fighting between two companies in the same space isn't competition, it's bickering.. and a sad one at that.

[SoulScreme]

I posted this somewhere else, but the logic for doing this is incrementally more difficult. You have to assign each button a variable, and instead of having clean logic you have a variable that could introduce more bugs, and require more memory. Remember, consoles are a hardware limited box where the developers are trying to do the most they can with the little they are given. Thus using memory for variables like button mappings reduces the memory available for other aspects of the game.

To the others that say "there is no standard on the PS3", what I'd assume that Harmonix is saying here is that there is a "Universal Standard" for recognizing a controller - that one of the analogs is set to a specific number. Since Harmonix never made a PS3 controller before leaving the partnership with Red Octane, they continued what would be the "norm" for controllers and used this standard that was set on the PS2 and 360. If Red Octane did something "different" from what they had agreed on with Harmonix at the time, there is no way for Harmonix to know that until they actually saw the unit.

That said, I don't see how Red Octane could "fix" this with a software patch, unless they had a flash update for the Les Paul itself to make that analog report a specific number. But here's hoping for the best! This petty fighting between two companies in the same space isn't competition, it's bickering.. and a sad one at that.

Actually, the standard they refer to is the standard for all PS3 controllers. Which is a lie since the SIXAXIS can't be used either.

[psyborg]

Its really in their best interest, the more people buying RO guitars the better(for them) regardless of what game their used on.

[eVan_Diesel]

Let's just hope that something comes of this. I really hope so......

[whofan]

What are they, realistically, going to do about it?

They didn't make the game, they don't have access to the program, they are not authorized to fiddle with the program, they can not release patches for the program..... do you see where I'm going with this?

With the exception of a firmware upagrade (is that even possible for the LP?) there is jack all they can do about the issue

[Damaged]

Red Octane got their start as a peripheral company (dance pads, Taiko drums), so maybe they have some voodoo that the software companies (Neversoft, Harmonix) don't have?

Either way I hope they can get something working, but I have no idea how they could do it this side of flashing the controller or licencing the controller info to Harmonix and allowing them to add a patch.

[PinkFloyd]

-SNIP-

while your point IS a valid one, I have SOME faith in this statement being true. see, GH3 releases this week in Europe, traditionally the biggest market for musicgames AND PS3land. A lot ppl are still on the fence whether or not they should fork out 100 euro for it. If Activision should say that they fixed the RB-issue with the LP this week, the threshold for buying GH3 is suddenly lower, since you'll also get ppl who needed a 4th Guitar for RB anyway (early next year) and ppl who'll get RB just for the Guitar-bit and pick up GH3 just to pass the time till RB comes. So from a businessperspective, getting RB to work with the LP would be the smart move.

[Bakkster]

My thoughts:
The 'open controller standard' HMX speaks of is likely the button configuration and, more importantly, the signals that tell the console if the controller is a guitar of a drum. This could explain why the PS3 guitar is not recognized (is only recognized as a sixaxis) while the 360 guitar is.

There would be two ways to fix this problem:
Patch the RO guitars to send this signal.
Patch Rock Band to recognize some other unique signal from the LP as a sign the controller is a guitar.

Of course, this is all just a hunch from an Computer Engineer. I could be right on, or I could be way off. We also have no way of knowing if there has ACTUALLY been any contact or work done by either company, nor will we until we get an official statement from one or both sides. Since most companies have a policy not to comment on rumors, don't expect anything from HMX unless there is actual work to make a statement about. If RO does make an official statement, HMX will likely follow up with a confirmation or denial.

[Ultrace]

Why hate on RO so much? Isn't it equally possible that Harmonix/EA made it so that the LP won't work so that when their instruments come out for sale they sell more?
RO/Activision's standpoint from the very beginning has been to make their game and controller exclusive from all competition's. Just look at the opening loading screen for GH3. It says right there in the fine print that you're basically breaking a TOS if you try to use any controller other than theirs. It doesn't get much more clear-cut about their intentions to segregate their game. Meanwhile, Harmonix has indicated from the beginning that they want to get as many controllers to work with as many games as possible--whether they've managed to deliver on that or not, from the outset it was pretty clear that if there was any roadblock to the goal it was going to come from RO.

[SoulScreme]

My thoughts:
The 'open controller standard' HMX speaks of is likely the button configuration and, more importantly, the signals that tell the console if the controller is a guitar of a drum. This could explain why the PS3 guitar is not recognized (is only recognized as a sixaxis) while the 360 guitar is.

There would be two ways to fix this problem:
Patch the RO guitars to send this signal.
Patch Rock Band to recognize some other unique signal from the LP as a sign the controller is a guitar.

Of course, this is all just a hunch from an Computer Engineer. I could be right on, or I could be way off. We also have no way of knowing if there has ACTUALLY been any contact or work done by either company, nor will we until we get an official statement from one or both sides. Since most companies have a policy not to comment on rumors, don't expect anything from HMX unless there is actual work to make a statement about. If RO does make an official statement, HMX will likely follow up with a confirmation or denial.

Agreed, however, as a USB device the Les Paul should send a string to any device it's connected to with an identifying string. This is how most computers can display the name of a device. Rock Band could definitely use this, which makes their saying it would work and it not working totally ridiculous.

[Emowii]

I got this same canned email response from Red Octane today. Sure, it's worded in a way which suggests that they're considering fixing this problem, but I'm certainly not going to hold my breath for it.


If either company wanted to fix this problem they would just come out and say it right now. No "we're thinking about it". They either are or they aren't.

[whofan]

while your point IS a valid one, I have SOME faith in this statement being true. see, GH3 releases this week in Europe, traditionally the biggest market for musicgames AND PS3land. A lot ppl are still on the fence whether or not they should fork out 100 euro for it. If Activision should say that they fixed the RB-issue with the LP this week, the threshold for buying GH3 is suddenly lower, since you'll also get ppl who needed a 4th Guitar for RB anyway (early next year) and ppl who'll get RB just for the Guitar-bit and pick up GH3 just to pass the time till RB comes. So from a businessperspective, getting RB to work with the LP would be the smart move.
You bring up valid points, all I'm saying is don't hold your breath.

And don't snip me, it's a form of censorship.... Oh God! You're censoring real life now, aren't you?
(FYI, that whole statement is a poor attempt at humour by me)

[PinkFloyd]

You bring up valid points, all I'm saying is don't hold your breath.

And don't snip me, it's a form of censorship.... Oh God! You're censoring real life now, aren't you?
(FYI, that whole statement is a poor attempt at humour by me)

i'm not, experience has taught me that businessmen are not smart on a hourly basis.
and I snipped you because the text input on the PS3browser is limited. :)

[gutterboy44]

What gets me pissed is that both these companies are screwing the fans that made them who they are. Casual gamers did not buy two red octane dance pads and multiple guitars. It was the hardcore fans that bought these games on the first day and showed it to all of their friends who then went out and bought GH. Guitar Hero was on some girly TV show the other night for crying out loud. The dedicated fans made the success of HMX and RO possible. Now, these same die hard fans who bought both companies newest games right away are getting shafted. We have lined both companies pockets and we deserve a measly compatibility patch.

[GHudston]

It's in RO's best interests to make sure that their hardware works with any other game on the market because that will mean that they sell more guitar controls to people who, for example, don't like GH3 but would prefer the Les Paul for playing rock-band. It will also mean that they will sell more copies of GH3 to those who want a bass guitar, thus taking advantage of the shortage of fenders until next year.

Business reasons for it or not, I just want a bass guitar sooner than february. :P

[AdamWill]

I posted this somewhere else, but the logic for doing this is incrementally more difficult. You have to assign each button a variable, and instead of having clean logic you have a variable that could introduce more bugs, and require more memory. Remember, consoles are a hardware limited box where the developers are trying to do the most they can with the little they are given. Thus using memory for variables like button mappings reduces the memory available for other aspects of the game.

To the others that say "there is no standard on the PS3", what I'd assume that Harmonix is saying here is that there is a "Universal Standard" for recognizing a controller - that one of the analogs is set to a specific number. Since Harmonix never made a PS3 controller before leaving the partnership with Red Octane, they continued what would be the "norm" for controllers and used this standard that was set on the PS2 and 360. If Red Octane did something "different" from what they had agreed on with Harmonix at the time, there is no way for Harmonix to know that until they actually saw the unit.

That said, I don't see how Red Octane could "fix" this with a software patch, unless they had a flash update for the Les Paul itself to make that analog report a specific number. But here's hoping for the best! This petty fighting between two companies in the same space isn't competition, it's bickering.. and a sad one at that.

Why not just read what they say instead of guessing?

In every statement, it is clear that 'standard' simply refers to the general input standard for the platform (i.e. the buttons and axes that the console expects as valid inputs). It does not refer to anything more than that.

BTW, GH2 guitars (not sure about GH1 but I'd guess it's the same) identify themselves by doing the equivalent of permanently holding down both the left and right d-pad buttons (you'll note this axis is not used anywhere in the menu system).

[AdamWill]

My thoughts:
The 'open controller standard' HMX speaks of is likely the button configuration and, more importantly, the signals that tell the console if the controller is a guitar of a drum. This could explain why the PS3 guitar is not recognized (is only recognized as a sixaxis) while the 360 guitar is.


No. It isn't. There is no standard for these things, and if you read HMX's quotations, this is clearly not what they are saying. Really, just go back and read them.

[DivaMom]

Don't hold your breath, the opening screen for GH3 still expressly forbids playing it with anything other than an "authorized" Activision/RO controller.
Definitely not holding my breath, just being hopeful ;)
(I have been accused of being a seriously annoying optimist :p )

[Bakkster]

Agreed, however, as a USB device the Les Paul should send a string to any device it's connected to with an identifying string. This is how most computers can display the name of a device. Rock Band could definitely use this, which makes their saying it would work and it not working totally ridiculous.

Agreed, RB obviously doesn't recognize this string for some reason. HMX says they will work with any company the comes to them asking to make their guitar compatible. Regardless of the reason, this hasn't happened yet. If something is going on, I expect we'll get an announcement from both companies soon.

[Bakkster]

No. It isn't. There is no standard for these things, and if you read HMX's quotations, this is clearly not what they are saying. Really, just go back and read them.

If there is no standard, all the more reason for HMX to make one. I don't know any more than you, but I don't think it's unreasonable to think this is the reason. If I'm right, we're just a patch away from compatibility. If you're right, PS3 owners are hosed.

I'm pretty sure I'm right ;)

[AdamWill]

If there is no standard, all the more reason for HMX to make one. I don't know any more than you, but I don't think it's unreasonable to think this is the reason. If I'm right, we're just a patch away from compatibility. If you're right, PS3 owners are hosed.

I'm pretty sure I'm right ;)

People really need to read up on what a 'standard' is.

That's not how you make a standard. That's the direct polar opposite of a standard, actually. Standards are discussed and agreed between all the parties involved - that's what makes them standards. "Whatever company X decided to do on its own" is not, by definition, a standard.

(well, unless company X is Microsoft, who pay lawyers a lot of money to make sure that that's *exactly* what a standard is in those circumstances. :D)

and if I'm right, no, no-one's hosed, particularly. It just makes the patch slightly more complex. Theoretically HMX just need to patch RB to recognize whatever the Les Paul's recognition signal is, and use the correct control map when that recognition signal is detected. And the same (in reverse) for using the Strat on GH3.

[MF-PO'd]

I thought it was because HMX wanted you to play with a guitar controller, because that's the point. Also, the standard controller is intended for use with the mic.

Not according to EA. They've specifically told me that the Sixaxis problem is Sony's fault and even suggested me to take that concern up with them about why it doesn't work in Rock Band.

Quote from EA: "We have no control over what other manufacturers, including Sony, choose to do with and to their products. If Sony is providing equipment that is not standard (in other words, other items cannot use them on Sony's own console), then perhaps that is something you may want to take up with them. "


On the reason why RO would want to fix this, the reason is simple: They sell more guitars. They know Harmonix/EA don't have their guitars out yet. Their bundles are missing a guitar, and standalone copies need something to use. RO could easily sell more guitars and/or Guitar Hero 3 copies. It basically grows the overall music game business.

[Frederf]

Sony's fault? As much as I love to bash Sony, they didn't code the software (Rock Band) nor did they make the hardware (Les Paul). How could they be at fault?

Harmonix: "Hey Red Octane, tell us how your controller works so we can code Rock Band to recognize it."

Red Octane: "No."

Harmonix: "Bugger."

[Everman]

Sony's fault? As much as I love to bash Sony, they didn't code the software (Rock Band) nor did they make the hardware (Les Paul). How could they be at fault?

Harmonix: "Hey Red Octane, tell us how your controller works so we can code Rock Band to recognize it."

Red Octane: "No."

Harmonix: "Bugger."

HAHA that was hilarious!

[Ultrace]

Sony's fault? As much as I love to bash Sony, they didn't code the software (Rock Band) nor did they make the hardware (Les Paul). How could they be at fault?

Harmonix: "Hey Red Octane, tell us how your controller works so we can code Rock Band to recognize it."

Red Octane: "No."

Harmonix: "Bugger."
The PS3 LP problem explained in 15 seconds...

[bench43]

RO makes good stuff. The Les Paul is awesome.

let me guess... you're a 360 owner:D

[lawman118]

I would like to see mulitple patchs.
1. allow both GH3 and RB guitars to work with one another in both games.
2. allow the use of the PS3 guitars to play GH1,2,80's on the PS3.

Is that really too much to ask?

[Everman]

I would like to see mulitple patchs.
1. allow both GH3 and RB guitars to work with one another in both games.
2. allow the use of the PS3 guitars to play GH1,2,80's on the PS3.

Is that really too much to ask?

It sounds perfectly reasonable to me... but what do I know, I am just the consumer who buys all of this stuff...

[monstrado]

I would like to see mulitple patchs.
1. allow both GH3 and RB guitars to work with one another in both games.
2. allow the use of the PS3 guitars to play GH1,2,80's on the PS3.

Is that really too much to ask?

that would be kick ass! :)

[Damaged]

I would like to see mulitple patchs.
1. allow both GH3 and RB guitars to work with one another in both games.
2. allow the use of the PS3 guitars to play GH1,2,80's on the PS3.


If they could make the RB guitar work with GH1,2,80's on the PS3 I would buy 2nd guitar (provided they fix the strum problem) just for that!

[TigerVoss]

This is huge, and I am surprised that they have responded to our inquires, where as HMX has not.....
Kudos to Red Octane/Activision for stepping it up for us customers, and at least letting us know something.

[whofan]

This is huge, and I am surprised that they have responded to our inquires, where as HMX has not.....
Kudos to Red Octane/Activision for stepping it up for us customers, and at least letting us know something.
Both Harmonix and Red Octane have said the exact same things "We're Aware Of The Issue And We're Looking Into It".

Stop with the HMX bashing if you don't know the facts. Multiple HMX employees have said the exact same thing as Red Octane is, why is RO coming out smelling like roses in this scenario, where HMX aren't?

Somebody explain this logic to me!!!

[SoulScreme]

Both Harmonix and Red Octane have said the exact same things "We're Aware Of The Issue And We're Looking Into It".

Stop with the HMX bashing if you don't know the facts. Multiple HMX employees have said the exact same thing as Red Octane is, why is RO coming out smelling like roses in this scenario, where HMX aren't?

Somebody explain this logic to me!!!

Because Harmonix made the promise and didn't deliver? Also, link me to these "multiple HMX employees." The only thing I've seen is a BS official statement from EA telling everybody to go screw themselves.

[Rook_x51]

This is huge, and I am surprised that they have responded to our inquires, where as HMX has not.....
Kudos to Red Octane/Activision for stepping it up for us customers, and at least letting us know something.

Are you kidding me? This has nothing to do with stepping up for the customer. This has everything to do with Red Octane realizing that people may buy the standalone guitars for Rock Band.

Getting it to work on PS3 = more sales for Red Octane.

Harmonix/MTV/EA have absolutely no need to get this to work. If the Les Paul doesn't work than more people will buy an extra strat.

Simple business strategies. I fault no one for this and credit no one as well for a fix.

[Bakkster]

Because Harmonix made the promise and didn't deliver? Also, link me to these "multiple HMX employees." The only thing I've seen is a BS official statement from EA telling everybody to go screw themselves.

http://multiplayerblog.mtv.com/2007/10/09/your-rock-band-questions-answered-guitar-hero-compatibility-bundles-etc/

Harmonix has an open platform philosophy and their games will be compatible with third-party controllers that conform to the various platform controller standards.

http://xbox360.ign.com/articles/795/795310p2.html
June 8th, 2007

IGN: Initially, there was some confusion as to whether Rock Band would work with the Guitar Hero controller. Can you lay those worries to rest for us?

Alex Rigopulos: We do intend to support 3rd-party guitar peripherals, including the Guitar Hero controllers, because this kind of interoperability is exactly what gamers want and expect. However, the Rock Band game is specifically designed for the official Rock Band Fender Stratocaster guitar controller, and we've introduced some very cool hardware innovations into this device.

IGN: Did you ever plan to have a peripheral that could mimic all the instruments?

Alex Rigopulos: No, we really wanted the play experience to be as accurate an emulation of playing music as possible, and to pull this off requires peripherals that are true to the real instruments.

[SoulScreme]

http://multiplayerblog.mtv.com/2007/10/09/your-rock-band-questions-answered-guitar-hero-compatibility-bundles-etc/


http://xbox360.ign.com/articles/795/795310p2.html
June 8th, 2007

Ok, none of what you posted says they're working on a fix or looking into anything. This is all before the launch of the game. Try again, chief.

[Bakkster]

Ok, none of what you posted says they're working on a fix or looking into anything. This is all before the launch of the game. Try again, chief.

I don't see how an unofficial comment through customer support after the game's release shows any more care than an acknowledgment of the problem and commitment to fix it before release?

Also, check the second part of the second quote: HMX doesn't recognize sixaxis controllers for a reason. For some unknown reason, the GH3 PS3 controller registers as a sixaxis, whereas the 360 GH2+3 guitars register as guitar controllers. You can't tell me that was in no way affected by RO.

HMX still needs to make a statement, but RO is no knight in shining armor.

[SoulScreme]

I don't see how an unofficial comment through customer support after the game's release shows any more care than an acknowledgment of the problem and commitment to fix it before release?

Also, check the second part of the second quote: HMX doesn't recognize sixaxis controllers for a reason. For some unknown reason, the GH3 PS3 controller registers as a sixaxis, whereas the 360 GH2+3 guitars register as guitar controllers. You can't tell me that was in no way affected by RO.

HMX still needs to make a statement, but RO is no knight in shining armor.

I didn't say they were. But RO didn't promise the compatibility, Harmonix did. The bottom line is that they had the PS3 guitar before launch, likely before going gold. It's not that hard to check the USB devices device ID and differentiate it from a SIXAXIS. They just didn't do it.

[dragulaAC]

Honestly, GH3 came out on 10/28. This is about 24 days before RB came out. You figure many stores had their final products in possession by, in some cases, even the 15th or 16th. Add 2-3 days in transit to get to those stores, and we're looking at 12th or 13th even. That means they were mass producing all of the RB gear/discs atleast a week or 2 before that. If I had to guess, they would have had about a week or so to do anything at all.

I dunno, I don't work in the biz, but I wouldn't rely on 1 week to evaluate, test, recode, test, and get it perfect in that time frame, with no guarantees it would get fixed correctly yet. Especially when you would think that something as easy as a patch may be able to remedy the issue in the future, allowing more time to get it right. It doesn't seem like they just tossed it aside as if it were nothing. eh, just my thoughts.

[SoulScreme]

Honestly, GH3 came out on 10/28. This is about 24 days before RB came out. You figure many stores had their final products in possession by, in some cases, even the 15th or 16th. Add 2-3 days in transit to get to those stores, and we're looking at 12th or 13th even. That means they were mass producing all of the RB gear/discs atleast a week or 2 before that. If I had to guess, they would have had about a week or so to do anything at all.

I dunno, I don't work in the biz, but I wouldn't rely on 1 week to evaluate, test, recode, test, and get it perfect in that time frame, with no guarantees it would get fixed correctly yet. Especially when you would think that something as easy as a patch may be able to remedy the issue in the future, allowing more time to get it right. It doesn't seem like they just tossed it aside as if it were nothing. eh, just my thoughts.

I can see that. But even so, why not say a patch is coming instead of a bunch of bull**** about standards?

[Bakkster]

I didn't say they were. But RO didn't promise the compatibility, Harmonix did. The bottom line is that they had the PS3 guitar before launch, likely before going gold. It's not that hard to check the USB devices device ID and differentiate it from a SIXAXIS. They just didn't do it.

HMX didn't promise it either. They can't promise that any schmuck (including RO) will make a RB compatible guitar. They said they want there to be 3rd party guitars (see above), and that they will work with any company who wants to make a compatible guitar (find your own quote).

RO did make a promise, however, that they would not support any 3rd party peripheral.

[dragulaAC]

yah, i guess by now you'd think something more concrete would have been announced. I just want my GH1 sg's to work, heh.