Using Drum Triggers with Rock Band [Archive] - Rock Band Forums // Rock Band®

RobHalford

11-26-2007, 04:34 PM

Hi everybody,

I purchased Rock Band for the PS3 last Tuesday and have been reading all of the posts like an addict ever since. I decided to finally make an account and post.

I have been experimenting with the possiblity of using a kick drum trigger (Roland KD-7) with the Rock Band kit so that I could hook up my DW5000 pedal. I know people have been curious and I just wanted to update this forum with my experience. I purchased a 1/4" to 1/8" adapter at radio shack for $3 and attempted to plug my KD-7 trigger into the drums. Unfortunately, I have not been successful in making the trigger work. I thought that the trigger would just send a signal to the kit and then the game would interpret that signal as the bass drum (just like my roland brain), but unfortunately there is some issue with the communication between the two devices.

Not satisfied with this result, I have tried some other triggers and pads as well. So far the only thing that I have gotten to work is my Roland FD-6 Hi-Hat Controller. I simply plugged it in with the adapter and it works perfectly. The one downside to this is that it was obviously not designed to be used as a kick pedal, so the response and feel are not ideal, but it is definitely playable (and sturdy...yay for metal)

So to recap, KD-7 not working, FD-6 Hi-Hat Controller WORKS!

If anyone finds a way to make the KD-7 trigger work, I would love to know how. Hopefully, this information is useful for some of you. GOOD LUCK! ROCK ON!

-Mike

Stevenam81

11-26-2007, 04:42 PM

I would like to get a practice kick pad and install a switch where the beater hits. Sort of like how a couple of other guys have put a switch inside of a wood block and placed the wood block under their pedal. I'l like to use the same switch, but put it on the pad somehow so the beater hits it.

JarethLegend

11-26-2007, 05:57 PM

klausw

11-26-2007, 05:59 PM

The way I understand it, there's two types of triggers - variable resistance (anything sensing position, such as a hi-hat pedal, including the simple case of an on/off switch), and piezos which generate a voltage spike when being hit (such as drum pad triggers). They need different circuitry to read, and if you want to convert one to the other you'll need to have a conversion circuit. In this case, it sounds like you'll need to convert the piezo's output to a simple on/off signal.

It's probably not too hard to build one if you have basic electronics skills, but I haven't tried this myself. Here are some links I found during brief googling. If anyone builds this successfully or knows an off-the-shelf solution please let us know!

I'll be getting a kick drum pedal + sensor soon and will start experimenting once I have it :)

http://www.musicfromouterspace.com/analogsynth/SOUNDLABMINISYNTH/drum_trigger.html
http://www.wnymusic.com/board/viewtopic.php?p=1076312&sid=d2f92881bc59502f9d53052f811900d4
http://www.toontrack.com/forum/tm.aspx?m=36342

Edit: looks like this would do it, but the kit has eight input circuits and is a bit expensive (well, it's cheap compared to a v-drum kit...)
http://www.paia.com/ProdArticles/drumsens.htm
http://www.paia.com/proddetail.asp?prod=9212K&cat=41

Edit #2: Looks like this would be simpler (you only need the "switch" part of the circuit, and a few cents' worth of parts):
http://www.vdrums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=33816
http://www.toontrack.com/forum/tm.aspx?m=35166

BTW, I'm not sure if it's a good idea to connect a piezo (such as a drum pad) to an input expecting a switch or vice versa if the electronics aren't built with that in mind. Equipment damage is (hopefully) unlikely but I guess that depends on the circuit details.

-Klaus

MrFreshness007

11-27-2007, 12:27 AM

What sort of cables and adapter where you using? Stereo or Mono? I believe it has to be a mono connection for it to work. I know I've tried a million stereo type combinations and nothing worked with my Yamaha electronic kick trigger. I'm going to radioshack tomorrow to get some other converters to see if that is the issue. If things work as I expect them to then I'll be posting a success tutorial pretty soon.

Ya, I think the issue is using a mono adapter. Last night I tried connecting my DTXPress hi-hat pedal to the RB drums (with a stereo adapter) and no worky. If the Roland HH pedal works with correct adapter, so should this. I'm going to search out a mono adapter later today too.

Even though the HH pedal isn't ideal for bass, compared to the RB plastic pedal, its light years ahead.

RobHalford

11-27-2007, 02:56 AM

I just realized now that I didn't include that information in my original post. I got the HH control working using a MONO adapter. I tried a stereo adapter as well, but had no such luck. If you're going to try using a HH control, just make sure you get a MONO 1/4" to 1/8" adapter. Sorry I didn't mention this earlier.

-Mike

JarethLegend

11-27-2007, 06:11 AM

bugnutz

11-27-2007, 06:29 AM

I have taken apart the pedal and found that it does not use a piezo to sense pedal input. Instead it uses a small glass enclosed switch with two very thin flexible pieces of metal inside that make contact and close the circuit under very minor vibration. This sensor can be removed and inserted into, say, the Gibraltor bass drum practice pad. I am intending on performing this mod this weekend or sooner if I get the time. As for the rest of the drums, I'm pretty sure they are just piezos on the pads. No need for Harmonix to re-invent the wheel. I have a set of electronic drums I converted from acoustic snares, and I am going to wire the kit up to the controller board of the rockband drum kit. I'm also going to wire up an extra yellow "pad" to a set of practice high hats, and extra cymbal pads for green and blue. This way you would have an entire kit with cymbals so you can play the cymbal and high hat parts on cymbals and tom parts on toms. I should have made some progress on this by next week. I'll post my findings as soon as I get something working.

bug

superchud

11-27-2007, 06:39 AM

Its a magnetic reed switch so don't forget to move the magnet part also attached to the bottom of the pedal (inside the orange piece).

GL

Stevenam81

11-27-2007, 06:39 AM

I doubt the pads are piezo if you mean they are not a simple on/off switch. Rock Band does not measure how hard you hit the pad. Just if you hit it or not. I've taken the drum pad off and looked at it. It's a very simple design. Hitting it just completes or disconnects, depending on how it is wired, a circuit.

MrFreshness007

11-27-2007, 06:41 AM

Well I've got bad news. I believe klausw is right. I tried every combination of cables and adapters and the only thing I could get to work was my Yamaha hi-hat controller using a stereo cable with a 1/4" stereo to 1/8" mono adapter. It's completely worthless though since it's too sensitive. I can just keep my foot on the pedal and jiggle my foot a little and it activates it like crazy. We are going to need to figure out how to make one of the converters that klausw mentions.

I could have sworn that my Yamaha HH pedal had an adjuster to determine sensitivity for the HH trigger. You verify that on yours? Than again, its been ages since I had to do it...I'll have to look it up in the manual I guess.

JarethLegend

11-27-2007, 12:17 PM

I could have sworn that my Yamaha HH pedal had an adjuster to determine sensitivity for the HH trigger. You verify that on yours? Than again, its been ages since I had to do it...I'll have to look it up in the manual I guess.

It has a screw that allows you to adjust the stroke height, but I tried both extremes and it doesn't make a difference. There's still to much double and worse triggering with it. I'm thinking unless we can somehow get the kick trigger to work using some kind of converter we are screwed when it comes to using our Yamaha DTXpress stuff.

Just for the record I found the manuals, so I have the model numbers. The hi-hat controller is HH65 and the kick trigger is KP65.

Now I'm wondering if anyone has ever used the Axis EKit and if so what kind of trigger is it? Is it also piezo? I'd be willing to buy a pair of ekits for my Axis pedals if I could get them to easily work with the RB kit.

MrFreshness007

11-27-2007, 01:57 PM

I was successful using the Yamaha HH60 as a bass pedal and also found it not very responsive. I do think I will keep it for double bass though! I know it will work for that in a pinch.

Here's the odd thing. I also tried the Yamaha KP60 bass pedal and it did successfully trigger the RB bass in game! Problem is that it was completely random when it would trigger. I could beat on it 20 times and only 5 would register. (I did confirm that the existing RB bass pedal was not plugged in so the trigger could not have come from anything but my KP60.) I don't know exactly what the problem was but I do know tha the 1/4" cable was mono and I ran in thru the same 1/8" mono adapter...so maybe that was the problem. I know that if this worked, it would be the Holy Grail...but no such luck.

MegaGoo

11-27-2007, 02:10 PM

let us know if you find something that works. i cracked my kick drum pedal tonight playing. see my thread for a nice video or youtube megagoo99

MrFreshness007

11-28-2007, 12:55 PM

Success...I got it working!

Following the link for the details:

http://rockband.scorehero.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1888

JarethLegend

11-28-2007, 01:34 PM

MrFreshness007

11-29-2007, 04:18 AM

So you taped your cymbal pad to your kick pad? I guess that works, but I'd really like to use my kick pad the way it is. Now if only someone could figure that out I'd be the happiest man alive. Or if HMX released a patch to support electronic kits in the first place that would be a million times better.

I hear ya! If only I could get my electronic bass pad working with this, would be even better.

By no means do I think the cymbal pad is the best approach. If I had a functional single zone bass pad around, I'd be using that. But, since I don't, this is the next best approach for me.

Also, this allow me to never have to worry about that plastic abomination RB bass pedal. I've got a replacement on order, but we all know its just a matter of time till it will break too. Plastic just cannot handle the beating we put on our pedals. Now I have no more worries about letting other people play my RB kit. I definitely know they won't be able to break this baby!

One other thing, this will allow me to connect my double bass pedal and not have the pedals cancel each other out like would happen with my Yamaha HH pedal and the RB pedal.

Texasboy

11-29-2007, 04:28 AM

could yall post some pictures .... im interested as hell but then again i dont know what the hell yall are talking about... haha

thanks

n8rocker82

11-29-2007, 05:35 AM

Just curious, but has anybody seen this?

http://cgi.ebay.com/Rock-Band-Bass-Pedal-Reinforcing-Plate_W0QQitemZ280178036565QQihZ018QQcategoryZ1225 17QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

The idea seems sound, but obviously this does nothing to enhance the stability of the spring. I haven't broken my pedal yet (knock on wood), but part of me feels that it's just a matter of time (I'm still drumming on "hard"). I don't own an electronic drum kit, so I don't have the luxury of modding anything to work with a real kit. Just wondering what real-life drummers would think of this plate.

davidshek

11-29-2007, 05:40 AM

Just wondering what real-life drummers would think of this plate.

Well you asked, so I'll answer...I personally think it's an attempt by some guy to rip off a bunch of people. He created a thread in this forum somewhere about this plate. The fact that it uses self-tapping screws means that eventually they'll pull their way out of the plastic on the RB pedal, and you'll be left with a metal plate attached to nothing.

I'm sure EA is working on a better and more durable kick pedal, so this guy trying to pawn off his little pieces of metal for $15 a pop (plus shipping) is just plain extortion. Obviously EA used plastic instead of metal to keep costs down, but that's biting them in the ass now as more and more pedals break from stress and usage.

Other than that, I would imagine it wouldn't feel much different than any real kick drum pedal that has a solid metal footboard (like a Pearl Eliminator, Tama Iron Cobra, etc.). Most of those have some soft of plastic plate (or other material) that goes over the metal though, whereas this would be exactly the opposite.

n8rocker82

11-29-2007, 05:50 AM

Well you asked, so I'll answer...I personally think it's an attempt by some guy to rip off a bunch of people.

Thanks. Honestly, that's what I figured. It's probably still too early to have a fool-proof solution yet. I'll start to worry more when my 60 day warranty is about to run out. I just did a quick search for "Rock Band Bass Pedal" and that's what came up. Again, I think people are on the right track with what the pedal should be. It just seems that the execution is lacking to this point. Hopefully EA or someone will come up with a reasonable solution soon.

JarethLegend

11-29-2007, 06:19 AM

MrFreshness007

11-29-2007, 02:55 PM

2nd day of play on my new 'bass drum' and I think i'm pretty happy. I did end up putting a towel behind the pad to dampen some of the vibration as before I was getting some double triggers. That's gone now.

What I am noticing is that the RB pads appear to be miss-triggering or possibly starting to fail. (ya I'm talking to you Mr. Red pad!) I'm wondering if this could also be caused by the fact that I had to remove the two steel support bars on the ground in order to put my bass drum/pedal into place. So now the kit has less support and does wabble a bit. Also wondering if the bass pedal hits could be causing the RB kit to vibrate now...as they do make a bit of a noise now.

I'll see about posting a picture of my setup just so some folks can get an idea of what I'm talking about.

One other thing I'll mention. I really think all of these mods to beef up the RB pedal are going to end up being a waste of time. Unless you replace the entire pedal with steel (or a much more durable material) you are just holding out for the inevitable failure. Sure you can replace the pedal itself, but what about the spring...what about the plastic base. Those are all weaknesses. Using a real bass pedal should be the starting point to a solid LONG TERM solution.

MrFreshness007

11-29-2007, 03:00 PM

Let's not get off topic people. Let's keep this thread for discussing how to get drum triggers to work with Rock Band. I'm personally doing research so that I can get my Yamaha KP65 electronic kick pad to work with the Rock Band kit.

I assume your kit has the PCY65 single zone cymbal pad (at least one for the ride) Have you tried it? I know you aren't interested in using it but at least it will tell you if your cabling is good.

And hey...if the PCY65 works...you know the drill...mount it to your bass drum pad, start up RB and play away! ;)

McPostal

11-30-2007, 01:50 PM

klausw

12-01-2007, 03:13 AM

The way I understand it, there's two types of triggers - variable resistance (anything sensing position, such as a hi-hat pedal, including the simple case of an on/off switch), and piezos which generate a voltage spike when being hit (such as drum pad triggers). They need different circuitry to read, and if you want to convert one to the other you'll need to have a conversion circuit. In this case, it sounds like you'll need to convert the piezo's output to a simple on/off signal.

Edit #2: Looks like this would be simpler (you only need the "switch" part of the circuit, and a few cents' worth of parts):
http://www.vdrums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=33816
http://www.toontrack.com/forum/tm.aspx?m=35166

I've built the circuit and indirectly confirmed that it works (indirectly because my bass drum pedal hasn't arrived yet :( ). I've been using the kick drum piezo trigger for my Yamaha DD-55 digital drum kit, which claims to be compatible to the Yamaha KP-65 trigger. (Unfortunately it's even worse to use than the RB kick pedal since it's just a small button to stomp on.) It interfaces well with Rock Band, the hits register cleanly and I haven't noticed missed or double hits.

Also, I've tried building a drum trigger by simply connecting a $2 radio shack piezo to the circuit, and that also works. This means that with a few cheap parts for the sensor and circuits, and some creativity in building the sensor into a surface to hit, you'll be able to use a normal kick drum pedal (the mechanical beater+chain type with no electronics) to play RB :D

I'll do some more testing, and if people are interested I can write up instructions for building it. It's not complicated (just 3 components plus some cables to wire up), and it should be possible to do a simple hack version with no soldering or other special tools.

-Klaus

klausw

12-01-2007, 03:19 AM

I have a Yamaha KP65 kick trigger. I tried the stereo 1/4" to mono 1/8" adapter with no response. I then tried splicing a stereo 1/4" cable to a mono 1/8" cable only connecting the neutral and left channel (white) of the stereo cable to the mono cable. I turned the trigger sensitivity to max and it works but it seems to miss about 1 out of 10 hits.

I'm not sure if that's a good idea without an interface circuit (see my previous message, I've confirmed it works) - the controller is expecting a simple on/off switch and is running 2.5V through it. The piezo you're currently connecting has a constant very high resistance and sends sharp voltage spikes when hit - I'm surprised you're getting any response at all, but unless you're very confident that the RB drum controller electronics are built to take that I wouldn't use it as a long term solution.

-Klaus

JarethLegend

12-01-2007, 06:23 AM

I've built the circuit and indirectly confirmed that it works (indirectly because my bass drum pedal hasn't arrived yet :( ). I've been using the kick drum piezo trigger for my Yamaha DD-55 digital drum kit, which claims to be compatible to the Yamaha KP-65 trigger. (Unfortunately it's even worse to use than the RB kick pedal since it's just a small button to stomp on.) It interfaces well with Rock Band, the hits register cleanly and I haven't noticed missed or double hits.

Also, I've tried building a drum trigger by simply connecting a $2 radio shack piezo to the circuit, and that also works. This means that with a few cheap parts for the sensor and circuits, and some creativity in building the sensor into a surface to hit, you'll be able to use a normal kick drum pedal (the mechanical beater+chain type with no electronics) to play RB :D

I'll do some more testing, and if people are interested I can write up instructions for building it. It's not complicated (just 3 components plus some cables to wire up), and it should be possible to do a simple hack version with no soldering or other special tools.

-Klaus

Can you please post some instructions and the circuit diagram? I tried building a similar circuit and didn't have any luck. You'd be a life saver if your circuit actually works with my KP65.

McPostal

12-01-2007, 06:23 AM

I'm not sure if that's a good idea without an interface circuit (see my previous message, I've confirmed it works) - the controller is expecting a simple on/off switch and is running 2.5V through it. The piezo you're currently connecting has a constant very high resistance and sends sharp voltage spikes when hit - I'm surprised you're getting any response at all, but unless you're very confident that the RB drum controller electronics are built to take that I wouldn't use it as a long term solution.

-Klaus

Well it's getting its power from the RB drums so I don't see how it could send out more voltage than it receives unless the voltage is created by the pad being struck (maybe like those flashlights that you have to shake to charge). I doubt that though.

JarethLegend

12-01-2007, 07:16 AM

Well it's getting its power from the RB drums so I don't see how it could send out more voltage than it receives unless the voltage is created by the pad being struck (maybe like those flashlights that you have to shake to charge). I doubt that though.

Actually the piezo generates a voltage and it can be pretty high. What you are doing could actually be dangerous depending on how the kit is designed. The way to go about it is with a piezo/switch circuit as Klaus has mentioned. I tried building one, but I think I overcomplicated it and ended up not getting it to work. I guess that's why I switched my third year in EE to CS, heh. Looks like Klaus figured it out though. I'm anxious for the instructions.

Xevin

12-01-2007, 01:12 PM

Ok guys, I just wanna say thanks!

This plastic pedal poop that comes with rock band blows chunks. My pedal has broken three -thats right- three times on me. First it broke just below the spring so I repaired it with the metal mounts solution. Then it breaks near the hinge! Feck! So I mod the pedal into an old sandal and use it that way. Super ghetto I know. Then the base of the pedal cracks! Finally I said screw it!

I requested a replacment, but knowing that its just gonna break too, I went onto eBay and bought a Roland FD-6 Hihat pedal. It just arrived today, so I quickly hooked it up and tested it out. Its like a freckin dream! It works and it DOESN'T break! This is how bass pedals should be...

So again, thanks for the info in this thread! It has really helped me.

McPostal

12-01-2007, 01:59 PM

I gave up on the trigger and just made a simple switch: http://community.rockband.com/vbforum/showthread.php?t=12569

JarethLegend

12-01-2007, 02:19 PM

klausw

12-01-2007, 04:40 PM

Hey, Klaus where are you buddy? If you could post the circuit real quick and mention what cables for in and out. I'm guessing mono out of the circuit, but would it be stereo in or mono in? I want to get this working asap. Thanks so much.

Here's the circuit:

http://klaus.vh.swiftco.net/img/rb/rb-circuit.jpg

The parts list is (all parts numbers are from Radio Shack, feel free to substitute the supplier of your choice):

1M-Ohm resistor (band colors: brown black green gold); 271-1356 (or get an assorted pack)
NPN transistor 2N4401; 276-2058 (careful, heat sensitive and fragile, don't bend the leads too much)
100k-Ohm micro-size potentiometer; 271-284 (use one end (doesn't matter which) and the middle connector)
shielded cable with 1/8" headphone plug (stereo or mono); 42-2387
Optional: Enclosure (box) for the project; 270-1801
Optional: three-conductor 1/4" stereo phone jacks; 274-312B (or whatever you need to connect your existing drum trigger such as the Yamaha KP-65 to the device)
Optional: piezo transducer; 273-073A (if you do a DIY drum trigger)

I'm using stereo plugs, mono should also work. For stereo, try wiring up the tip and mantle, leaving the middle ring unconnected. If you're attaching other drum triggers with more complicated connectors, you'll need to experiment which ones you need to connect on the input side. The one shown worked for the DD-55 kick drum pad which has a mono 1/4" plug.

I'm still working on build instructions with pictures.

-Klaus

JarethLegend

12-01-2007, 06:55 PM

Here's the circuit:

http://klaus.vh.swiftco.net/img/rb/rb-circuit.jpg

The parts list is (all parts numbers are from Radio Shack, feel free to substitute the supplier of your choice):

1M-Ohm resistor (band colors: brown black green gold); 271-1356 (or get an assorted pack)
NPN transistor 2N4401; 276-2058 (careful, heat sensitive and fragile, don't bend the leads too much)
100k-Ohm micro-size potentiometer; 271-284 (use one end (doesn't matter which) and the middle connector)
shielded cable with 1/8" headphone plug (stereo or mono); 42-2387
Optional: Enclosure (box) for the project; 270-1801
Optional: three-conductor 1/4" stereo phone jacks; 274-312B (or whatever you need to connect your existing drum trigger such as the Yamaha KP-65 to the device)
Optional: piezo transducer; 273-073A (if you do a DIY drum trigger)

I'm using stereo plugs, mono should also work. For stereo, try wiring up the tip and mantle, leaving the middle ring unconnected. If you're attaching other drum triggers with more complicated connectors, you'll need to experiment which ones you need to connect on the input side. The one shown worked for the DD-55 kick drum pad which has a mono 1/4" plug.

I'm still working on build instructions with pictures.

-Klaus

I can confirm this does work with my KP65 pedal. There was a problem though. It wasn't sensitive enough. Even with the resistor turned all the way(I'm guessing off) and my KP65 turned all the way up(it has a sensitivity knob on it) it still took extremely hard hits to get it to trigger which makes it useless. The problem could easily be my shoddy circuit skills though so I'm going to go get some more parts pretty soon and try once more. If it isn't my skills then I'm guessing there must be some way of changing the circuit slightly to make it more sensitive?

klausw

12-01-2007, 07:32 PM

I'm still working on build instructions with pictures.

Here's the solderless prototype on a breadboard socket (part #276-003). In case you're wondering, the top and bottom two rows are horizontally connected internally (I'm using one of them as ground), and the rest of the board is vertically connected. The green things are just wires.

EDIT: if using the Radio Shack piezo, reverse the polarity from that shown in the picture - connect the red wire where the diagram shows the mantle of the 1/4" plug, and the black wire to the tip.

http://klaus.vh.swiftco.net/img/rb/prototype.jpg

Preparing the enclosure for the soldered version - I sawed out a notch at each end to fit the cable into:

http://klaus.vh.swiftco.net/img/rb/cut-enclosure.jpg

The parts soldered on a mini-board (part sawed off) (part #276-148). The knots in the cables are for strain relief, so that the leads don't get pulled off the circuit board. The transistor is hiding behind the cable:

http://klaus.vh.swiftco.net/img/rb/board.jpg

And the completed piezo trigger, ready to plug into the RB drum controller as a foot pedal:

http://klaus.vh.swiftco.net/img/rb/piezo-complete.jpg

-Klaus

klausw

12-01-2007, 07:43 PM

I can confirm this does work with my KP65 pedal. There was a problem though. It wasn't sensitive enough. Even with the resistor turned all the way(I'm guessing off) and my KP65 turned all the way up(it has a sensitivity knob on it) it still took extremely hard hits to get it to trigger which makes it useless. The problem could easily be my shoddy circuit skills though so I'm going to go get some more parts pretty soon and try once more. If it isn't my skills then I'm guessing there must be some way of changing the circuit slightly to make it more sensitive?

Try swapping the input connectors around - you may be getting the wrong input polarity. According to the descriptions of the circuit that this is based on, you can also adjust the resistors - try replacing the 1M one with a larger resistance. You can also add diodes as in the original circuit: http://www.toontrack.com/forum/tm.aspx?m=35166

-Klaus

klausw

12-05-2007, 04:43 PM

Try swapping the input connectors around - you may be getting the wrong input polarity. According to the descriptions of the circuit that this is based on, you can also adjust the resistors - try replacing the 1M one with a larger resistance. You can also add diodes as in the original circuit: http://www.toontrack.com/forum/tm.aspx?m=35166

JarethLegend, have you tried this. and/or made any progress on connecting the KP-65? (Mine still hasn't arrived yet...) I had initially miswired my homemade piezo trigger with the wrong polarity which made it very unresponsive, and after fixing that it works much better.

For the Radio Shack piezo, connect the red wire to ground and the black wire to the resistor.

The following thread has more info about what the output from the piezos looks like: http://community.rockband.com/vbforum/showthread.php?p=174524

BTW, I measured up to 60V spikes from the piezo, and the controller circuitry appears to run at 2.5V, so I think that confirms that it's not a good idea to connect the piezo directly to the kick drum input...

-Klaus

ktm450exc

12-10-2007, 04:33 AM

Klaus,

I went looking at the local Radio Shack for the pieces you mentioned for the piezo version of your circuit. I was able to find all the parts except for the piezo component.

I'm not familiar with piezo's, and since Radio Shack lumps them into their 'piezo speaker' bin I wasn't sure if there was an equivalent part that could be used since all the piezo's looked like little speakers.

Also when placing the piezo are you looking to have the hammer hit the piezo, or just have the piezo very near the strike spot so it picks up the sound of the hammer hitting?

Thanks.

Bakkster

12-10-2007, 04:57 AM

Here's the circuit:

http://klaus.vh.swiftco.net/img/rb/rb-circuit.jpg

I'm thinking of adding a capacitor to this circuit to get a single pulse from the piezo feeding into the transistor. My guess is that for most people the de-bounce circuitry (or software) in the drums is compensating for this, but perhaps a capacitor would give a better behaved input signal? I won't have access to a lab or components for a while, would you mind taking a look at this?

klausw

12-10-2007, 06:40 AM

I went looking at the local Radio Shack for the pieces you mentioned for the piezo version of your circuit. I was able to find all the parts except for the piezo component.

I'm not familiar with piezo's, and since Radio Shack lumps them into their 'piezo speaker' bin I wasn't sure if there was an equivalent part that could be used since all the piezo's looked like little speakers.

Also when placing the piezo are you looking to have the hammer hit the piezo, or just have the piezo very near the strike spot so it picks up the sound of the hammer hitting?

I'm using part# 273-073A ("Piezo Element1500-3000Hz") which is in a black plastic cylindrical enclosure. You need to pry that off (which is a bit annoying to do, don't break the piezo inside or injure yourself), then you'll have a metal disk sandwich with the two wires soldered on.

Here's the web page for it: http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2062402&cp

Don't hit the piezo itself hard, it'll break. Try gluing it on a metal plate, put mouse pads or other padding on both sides, then strike the metal plate on the side away from the piezo.

klausw

12-10-2007, 06:42 AM

I'm thinking of adding a capacitor to this circuit to get a single pulse from the piezo feeding into the transistor. My guess is that for most people the de-bounce circuitry (or software) in the drums is compensating for this, but perhaps a capacitor would give a better behaved input signal? I won't have access to a lab or components for a while, would you mind taking a look at this?

I still haven't received my kick drum pedal, so I haven't been experimenting much. What capacitance and wiring would you suggest to try? I'll let you know once I get it how it works out. It does seem to work ok without the capacitor based on my limited testing.

Bakkster

12-10-2007, 06:50 AM

I still haven't received my kick drum pedal, so I haven't been experimenting much. What capacitance and wiring would you suggest to try? I'll let you know once I get it how it works out. It does seem to work ok without the capacitor based on my limited testing.

The capacitance will need to be determined by trial and error, but will probably be in the uF range or possibly lower. Placing it in parallel with the 1M resistor should perform double duty to reduce the voltage to a better level, as well as prevent the sinusoidal signal from causing the transistor to flicker on and off. This may also require a change in the resistor values to keep the signal from being too small.

JarethLegend

12-10-2007, 07:02 AM

Bakkster

12-10-2007, 07:17 AM

Well I've still been messing around with things. I've been talking to Keith who was the one that created the piezo/switch circuit. He designed a custom Rock Band circuit for me, and I've got it working really well, but it still isn't perfect. I've attached the circuit he created. Try it out and see how it works for you. I'm thinking more can be done to make it better. Oh yeah, If things aren't working correctly try flipping the tip and sleeve or the output and ground.

I would use a circuit similar to the attached. Connect the transistor base to the upper right lead, and the drum ground to the lower right lead. This should do a couple things:
It will provide a common ground between the piezo and the drums.
The potentiometer placement allows for more consistent operation (though not by too much).
The shockey diode keeps the capacitor from discharging when the piezo polarity reverses (I forgot about this in my last suggestion, not sure what value would be best).
The capacitor will smooth the input and prevent multiple triggers.

This schematic come from http://www.edrum.info/schematics.html. It's a really cool site that's worth checking out if you are interested in piezo triggers and electronic drums. It might be overkill, but would give the absolute best results.

klausw

12-10-2007, 01:15 PM

The capacitance will need to be determined by trial and error, but will probably be in the uF range or possibly lower. Placing it in parallel with the 1M resistor should perform double duty to reduce the voltage to a better level, as well as prevent the sinusoidal signal from causing the transistor to flicker on and off. This may also require a change in the resistor values to keep the signal from being too small.

Are you sure about the "sinusoidal signal"? I checked the trigger signal with an oscilloscope, and it appears to be a reasonably clean single spike, with a much lower bump after that:

http://community.rockband.com/vbforum/showpost.php?p=174524&postcount=15

I'm pretty sure that the oscillating signal (shown in the initial post of the linked thread) is due to the electronics in the RB drum controller, and you won't get a signal looking like that from a normal drum trigger. So I think the simple circuit should work in theory, but if there's still bounces or sensitivity issues it's good that there are fancier options available also.

Well I've still been messing around with things. I've been talking to Keith who was the one that created the piezo/switch circuit. He designed a custom Rock Band circuit for me, and I've got it working really well, but it still isn't perfect. I've attached the circuit he created. Try it out and see how it works for you. I'm thinking more can be done to make it better. Oh yeah, If things aren't working correctly try flipping the tip and sleeve or the output and ground.

Thank you for following up on this. That's almost exactly the circuit I'm using except for the 10k resistor, but as long as you're not turning the potentiometer all the way down that shouldn't matter. I've added the diode also, but didn't get the feeling that this made a huge difference.

The trigger input polarity is *very* important though, I got no usable signal when it was miswired.

-Klaus

Bakkster

12-10-2007, 01:38 PM

Are you sure about the "sinusoidal signal"? I checked the trigger signal with an oscilloscope, and it appears to be a reasonably clean single spike, with a much lower bump after that:

http://community.rockband.com/vbforum/showpost.php?p=174524&postcount=15

I'm pretty sure that the oscillating signal (shown in the initial post of the linked thread) is due to the electronics in the RB drum controller, and you won't get a signal looking like that from a normal drum trigger. So I think the simple circuit should work in theory, but if there's still bounces or sensitivity issues it's good that there are fancier options available also.

It's interesting that you got a result like that. There were no external electronics? Could it be the difference with how you hit it (pedal vs stick), because I've gotten o-scope readings from the mouse-pad, piezo, metal sheet combo and they had negative transients. In that case, the full capacitance/diode circuit shouldn't be needed.

MorningThief581

12-10-2007, 03:27 PM

Someone reported the Roland FD-6 hi-hat pedal will work with RB? I've tried mono->mono and stereo->mono adapters, but neither has been successful. Am I missing something?

If another pedal goes out on me, I may build the circuit to get a pad working... of course if a simple adapter would make the FD-6 functional, that would be simpler.

ktm450exc

01-06-2008, 03:00 PM

I need help with the results I'm getting with the following circuit:

Here's the circuit:
http://klaus.vh.swiftco.net/img/rb/rb-circuit.jpg

The way that I'm using this circuit is in a DIY Mesh Head drum as shown on the edrums.info (http://edrums.info) site.

The problem I'm having with the circuit is that it does not trigger from either a bass pedal hit, nor a drum stick hit. It instead triggers when you press the mesh or foam topped piezo through the mesh.

The circuit seems wired correctly, but I can't tell where the problem is. Could there be to much pressure on the piezo causing it to not trigger on hits but pushed pressure? Or is this the result of not enough sensitivity? I've tried adjusting the mini-pot but it doesn't seem to have any noticeable results.

Thanks for the help and input.

Bakkster

01-06-2008, 03:40 PM

The way that I'm using this circuit is in a DIY Mesh Head drum as shown on the edrums.info (http://edrums.info) site.

The problem I'm having with the circuit is that it does not trigger from either a bass pedal hit, nor a drum stick hit. It instead triggers when you press the mesh or foam topped piezo through the mesh.

The circuit seems wired correctly, but I can't tell where the problem is. Could there be to much pressure on the piezo causing it to not trigger on hits but pushed pressure? Or is this the result of not enough sensitivity? I've tried adjusting the mini-pot but it doesn't seem to have any noticeable results.

I'm going to guess the issue is with the trigger, not the circuit. Do you have access to an oscilloscope? Otherwise, connect the output directly from the piezo to a small speaker; you should get a sound out of the speaker if the piezo is producing a voltage. If not, you need to fix the connection between the mesh head and the piezo.

Let us know if you get some results.

Ghostbuster

01-14-2008, 05:58 PM

Alright, the wiring diagrams have to stop. For me, anyway. I'm a musician, not an electrician. :p

I have the Yamaha KP65 and it's only registering 75% or so of the hits using a quarter inch cable with a 1/4 to 3.5mm adapter. The strength of the hit doesn't seem to matter at all; some hard hits don't register and some light ones do. I have a feeling if I were able to increase the sensitivity level just a smidgen it might actually work better seeing as it seems to work to the same effect when I turn it to a lower sensitivity, but when I do that only 20% or so of the hits register. So would something like a headphone amplifier for an iPod work to ensure every hit is recognized? Or would I be better off commissioning somebody who knows what they're doing to make me one of these things?

http://klaus.vh.swiftco.net/img/rb/rb-circuit.jpg

bandaddy

01-16-2008, 10:54 AM

Ok, this all seems to be focused only on the pedal. Has anyone successfully hooked up any drum triggers to replace the regular drums?
I have a couple Yamaha TP65 triggers (simple single sensor) and if it's possible to do, I'd find a couple more and replace the r-y-b-g set. These would be infinitely more durable than the RB set, and feel way more like real drums.

AdamWill2

01-16-2008, 03:58 PM

uhhh...I don't claim to understand more than 20% of this thread, but I know they're talking about piezo sensors for the *drums*. It's nothing to do with the pedal.

Using a real bass pedal is a solved problem already, from what I can tell it's far less complex than using drum triggers, which is what's under discussion here.

zolon

01-16-2008, 04:08 PM

We have been working on ways to hook a full midi kit to the game, rather then just replaceing the pads themselves.

http://www.rockband.com/forums/showthread.php?t=20420

It works, and we have three possible ways. I will be building a strictly hardware solution as soon as my parts arrive.

FullMetal

02-12-2008, 10:33 PM

i've got an diy edrum set wired into the rockband controller via a 1/8 mono cable for each drum. has anyone tackled getting the crash cymbal and floor tom piezos wired together to trigger the same pad? would a simple y adapter work (essentially the piezos would be wired in parallel)?

july_favre

02-13-2008, 04:55 AM

juvinious

02-13-2008, 09:47 AM

Here's the circuit:

http://klaus.vh.swiftco.net/img/rb/rb-circuit.jpg

The parts list is (all parts numbers are from Radio Shack, feel free to substitute the supplier of your choice):

1M-Ohm resistor (band colors: brown black green gold); 271-1356 (or get an assorted pack)
NPN transistor 2N4401; 276-2058 (careful, heat sensitive and fragile, don't bend the leads too much)
100k-Ohm micro-size potentiometer; 271-284 (use one end (doesn't matter which) and the middle connector)
shielded cable with 1/8" headphone plug (stereo or mono); 42-2387
Optional: Enclosure (box) for the project; 270-1801
Optional: three-conductor 1/4" stereo phone jacks; 274-312B (or whatever you need to connect your existing drum trigger such as the Yamaha KP-65 to the device)
Optional: piezo transducer; 273-073A (if you do a DIY drum trigger)

I'm using stereo plugs, mono should also work. For stereo, try wiring up the tip and mantle, leaving the middle ring unconnected. If you're attaching other drum triggers with more complicated connectors, you'll need to experiment which ones you need to connect on the input side. The one shown worked for the DD-55 kick drum pad which has a mono 1/4" plug.

I'm still working on build instructions with pictures.

-Klaus

Ok so I put this together last night and I seem to have issues with it. It registers a hit, however one hit outputs 3-5 quick hits in game. I was wondering if it was a polarity issue and I change polarity but it didn't register. I can only assume that since the piezo picks up on vibration if hit hard enough it will continue to vibrate thus output more than one hit. Is there anyway to to prevent this?

Before doing the above circuit I initially tried this circuit out:
http://comcal.wboc.com/img/rbcircuit.jpg
But it didn't work at all.
This is what the original author said it did:

As you can see, basically it works extremely simply... Each time the piezo picks up a vibration, the positive half of the wave biases the gate of the MOSFET and turns it on, this in turn pulls the +5v to ground (makes a closure)... As soon as the .1uF drains, the MOSFET turns off and everything returns to normal...

Any ideas?

july_favre

02-15-2008, 04:31 PM

I built the scheamtic posted by jaredlegend, and it works but with inconsistant results.
It seems like the hit is being registered when the hit is removed as opposed to applied. If I push the pads down manually it doesnt register a hit until I release the pressure on the pad. Could this mean that I have something wiired backwards?
Also the hits arent very consistant. If I push my kick down just resting my foot, it might get a series of hits, but when Im hitting it pretty hard only a fraction of the hits register.
I am using a remo mesh head conversion for the pad.

happimeal

02-16-2008, 02:22 PM

if you hook up an ohm meter to the 1/8 mono ends of the original rockband plug you will see that when you push the pedal, the circuit closes, which means if you close the circuit, the pedal registers a hit I am trying some mini momentary push button switches at the moment. I am actually going to try and see if I can get some sort of double pedal action, i let you know

k8drums

02-16-2008, 03:51 PM

juvinious

02-18-2008, 09:22 AM

Hey juvinious
I followed you from scorehero! I had the same failure with the first wiring diagram...My dad built it and nothing happens. I will keep tabs on this thread to see what happens - I cant wait till it works.
A link I found useful for everyone:
http://www.edrums.info/acoustic_3.htm
For removing those pesky piezos from their housing

Hey what's up, yeah I saw your posts. Apparently nobody is very interested in using a piezo based trigger for the kicker.

Well the one posted from here in this forums works however I can't get it to stop registering 3-5 hits per kick. The other one I got from scorehero doesn't work at all. I don't have the electronic know how to do build something that works. :(

rottiepaws

02-26-2008, 11:17 PM

I don't understand those diagrams, I chose to just solder cables to the Rock Band kit and hook them to triggers so I can use my acoustic kit to control the game. here is the thread I made for the mod.

http://www.rockband.com/forums/showthread.php?t=32057

juvinious

02-27-2008, 10:35 AM

Well updating from my problems in which I was experiencing 3-5 hits per kick. I went on some extensive testing of my trigger and turns out that the fault was not the circuit but the trigger. It's one of those practice pads that come with the Gibraltar GBDP Bass Drum Pad which I converted. It seemed to trap air when struck which when you lift the beater from it, it starts to suck in air causing the metal plate inside to vibrate 3-5 times. Even with extensive padding I couldn't remedy the situation. I then swapped it out with a small 6" remo practice pad, also converted, which is much more stable and it works like a charm. I'm going to test around some more and see if I see anymore hiccups....

BelleauWoodsman

11-16-2008, 04:26 PM

Hello! All right . . . so, my first post. Do not yet have Rock Band; am getting it for my kids for Christmas. But I am quite familiar with the kick pedal issues (fragile construction, prone to cracking, etc.).

I do have a Pintech kick trigger (mounted on a Tama pedal) that works very well with the Yamaha DD-55 electronic drums.

The points brought up by Klaus, et. al., have raised some concerns: Initially, my thought was to merely run a 1/4" stereo to 1/8" mono -- or 1/4" mono to 1/8" mono? -- and go with that. From the considerable experience in electrical engineering that we evidently have on this board, would this cause problems by way of power spikes, etc.?

Regrettably, I am not able to find any details/specs on the Pintech kick trigger . . .

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Best regards,

JD

BelleauWoodsman

11-16-2008, 04:29 PM

davidshek

11-16-2008, 06:16 PM

If this helps (as I believe that the Pintech kick trigger may be a rather simple piezo trigger), I did mod my DD-55 to accept 1/4" inputs for each of the pads, also. The kick trigger works very well in all of these . . .

If you want to use your Pintech kick trigger with the Rock Band drums, you're going to need more than just a 1/4"-1/8" adapter.

You're going to need something to translate the piezo data into the simple ON/OFF signal that the RB drums require.

There is a product called the "Kickbox" which does exactly that:
http://rockbandkickbox.com/store/index.php?act=viewProd&productId=3

I own one and use it with a Roland KD-8 kick trigger. It's awesome :)

BelleauWoodsman

11-16-2008, 09:00 PM

Whoa. That even looks cool! Thank you for such a rapid response.

JD

july_favre

11-17-2008, 08:25 PM

For my set I bought a reed switch and a magnet at radio shack for a few bucks, and positioned them so when the kick hit the pad the magnet is in the right place to activate the reed relay. Its a little ghetto but the price was right for me.

md95

12-30-2008, 06:25 PM

I am wanting to use my Simmons SD7K electronic kit with RB(works just fine), but also want to use the kick pad and real pedal. The kickbox is a great solution, but since i'm really good with electronics and circuits, i'm going to build my own "kickbox". Some of the circuits posted dont make any sense for use with the bass pedal trigger. The 1/8" calbe that plugs into the stock RB pedal is just 2 wires, that when connected together(through a simple switch), register a bass note. Some of these circuits are sending grounds and such, but you dont need to do that. All the circuitry needed is already built into the RB controller. The end result needed is to electrically "connect" those 2 wires together, using a relay(switch). I'm working on a circuit that uses a piezo(the simmons kick pad) with a comparator and a photoMOS relay(the switch). I dont know what the kickbox uses, but i'm pretty sure it's something similar(the description says it uses a photoMOS relay). For the electronics DIY'ers, total for parts should be in the 25-30 dollar range.

The circuit i'm using is one i fould that uses a piezo to trigger a transistor that sounds an alarm. In my version, the piezo signal is input to a Comparator chip, then the output from that turns a photoMOS relay on and off. The photoMOS relay's output pins connect together when triggered(connect the 2 wires from the RB kick pedal calbe). The sensitivity can be adjusted with a varaible resistor on the input side to the comparator. The photoMOS relay is basically a LED that turns on a mini relay. The internal LED is lit up from the output of the comparator. Hope this makes sense for some lol. The "starting" circuit is here:

http://www.discovercircuits.com/PDF-FILES/motionalarm2.pdf

After the 4148 diode will go the photoMOS relay, most likely with a current limiting resistor to control current to the photoMOS relay's LED. I'll post up a final schematic when i get it all working good.

psufan1993

12-30-2008, 06:36 PM

If you want to use your Pintech kick trigger with the Rock Band drums, you're going to need more than just a 1/4"-1/8" adapter.

You're going to need something to translate the piezo data into the simple ON/OFF signal that the RB drums require.

There is a product called the "Kickbox" which does exactly that:
http://rockbandkickbox.com/store/index.php?act=viewProd&productId=3

I own one and use it with a Roland KD-8 kick trigger. It's awesome :)

How many times have you said that in this thread?

RockBand.com