Should I look into vinyl?

[instantdeath999]

Yes, I realize this site is composed mostly of audiophiles, and I'm prepared for an overwhelming "yes".

So, I guess we can just skip the question. I do have other questions, however.

1. How much would a good vinyl player cost?

2. Where can I find good vinyl records? My best buy had very, very slim selections.

3. Are there more modern vinyl players that allow headphones (this is a huge purchasing decision), and possibly be compatible with Last.fm? If not, it's really no big deal... I can just play them on itunes simultaneously to get the record of playing them.

4. And finally... is it a very big difference? About the difference between DVD and Blu-ray? Greater?

[Onslaught_fei]

You should only invest and collect vinyl if you are really into 60's and 70's music.

[instantdeath999]

I try to keep it balanced, but a good chunk of my listening time lies in the 60's and 70's.

To be honest, I have no idea how much I would be investing in the first place.

[OldFogey]

If you're not into audiophile level equipment, I wouldn't do it.

You can get a really nice player for around $500, but you have to make sure you get a phono pre amp (very few pre amps or receivers have phono inputs nowadays). That's another $100-$150. You can get cheaper turntables, but you won't hear any benefit to be honest.

And then there are the records. A lot of stuff is coming out on vinyl nowadays, but you pay a premium. Usually $16-26 from what I've seen.

And records take more care, although if they are cared for they will last longer.

If you do get into audiophile level type stuff by all means go vinyl. It's a big difference. A much warmer, more pleasant listening experience.

[idiotec]

I have to disagree with Fogey, I think there is a lot of enjoyment to be had with vinyl without getting into audiophile level equipment.

The first bit of information that would be nice to have is what equipment you already have, but let’s assume you are starting fresh.

Your best bang for the buck on a budget will be with vintage equipment. I think you could put together a nice starter system with something like:

Turntable: $100-$150 - Some to look at here are 70’s era Japanese decks. Technics, Pioneer, etc. Other options might be an old Dual or Thorens.

Cartridge: $50-$100 – A TON of options. You pick this after the deck to find the best synergy.

Integrated Amp/Receiver: $50-$100 - You can find some old 70’s era integrated amps for really cheap and they can sound pretty nice. The nice thing here is that most/all will have built in phono stages, so one less thing to buy.

Speakers: $50-$200 – This is where you can still find some great deals on vintage speakers that will sound nice, or you can also get some could entry level speakers from something like Paradigm, PSB, MA, etc.

This puts together a system ranging from $200 - $550 depending on what you are willing to spend. Of course, if you can spend more, upgrades are to be had at all levels. It can be a great hobby and if you get into it upgrading and tweaking equipment is half the fun, so no need to start at the top right away.

As for records, your best bet is to find a good local used record store. There are still a ton of bargains to be had and you can find many records for $1-$5 a piece. Ebay can still be a nice place to look too.

[YCFan282]

hot topic has a surprisingly good amount of 90's punk vinyl and some new stuff

[instantdeath999]

Is it not possible to use headphones with modern vinyl players, eliminating the need for expensive speakers? Or would that defeat the whole purpose, and I wouldn't be able to notice a difference through headphones?

[King_Nuthin]

I agree with Fogey, though I think you can get the cheapest Pro-ject and Music Hall tables for around $300 and they include a cartridge. Even the $500 tables are entry level stuff but its where you first really start to get bang for your buck.

That's not to say that vinyl is a total waste on a cheap table, but you aren't going to experience the actual audio benefits that can be had with vinyl on a cheap rig. You can still enjoy the collecting aspect of it, the great deals on cheap lots of vinyl at garage or estate sales, the fact that certain periods and genres of music only exist on vinyl, etc. Of course on a cheaper table that doesn't allow you to make tonearm adjustments you run the risk of slowly destroying all those great finds.

You can't scrobble directly from a turn table to last.fm, but you can manually scrobble with this link, if you're so inclined:
http://lastfmstats.livefrombmore.com/universalscrobbler//

[King_Nuthin]

Is it not possible to use headphones with modern vinyl players, eliminating the need for expensive speakers? Or would that defeat the whole purpose, and I wouldn't be able to notice a difference through headphones?
Sure, but you'd want to invest in good headphones like Sennheisers or similar, probably set you back ~$200. So you could go turntable -> phono pre amp -> headphone amp -> headphones.

Or you could get something like this to got between the turntable and headphones:
http://www.thecablepro.com/cableDetail.php?cID=15&cgID=1
(I know nothing about this, just the first thing that came up when I googled).

[idiotec]

That's not to say that vinyl is a total waste on a cheap table, but you aren't going to experience the actual audio benefits that can be had with vinyl on a cheap rig.
IDK, a system like I described is going to be a HUGE step up over your average MP3's played through computer speakers like most kids run these days.

[idiotec]

Or you could get something like this to got between the turntable and headphones:
http://www.thecablepro.com/cableDetail.php?cID=15&cgID=1
(I know nothing about this, just the first thing that came up when I googled).
I actually have that preamp. The headphone amp isn't bad. I listen using some Grado SR80's and it sounds pretty nice.

[instantdeath999]

I've seen a lot of solutions for a player, and I plan to look at that soon.

But does anyone have a good site, or something, to find vinyl? As I mentioned, my local stores have beyond slim selections for vinyl. No point getting a player if I don't have anything to listen to on it.

[King_Nuthin]

IDK, a system like I described is going to be a HUGE step up over your average MP3's played through computer speakers like most kids run these days.
Ok, if that is the basis for comparison, yes. But I was thinking about the jump from CD audio using whatever stereo/speaker setup exists.

If you're listening to mp3s through computer speakers I'd switch to CDs and some decent bookshelf speakers before even thinking about vinyl, unless you're a huge fan of garage and punk rock or live next to an Amoeba or some similar vinyl superstore, or your uncle just died and left you with a few hundred records.

[instantdeath999]

If you're listening to mp3s through computer speakers I'd switch to CDs and some decent bookshelf speakers before even thinking about vinyl, unless you're a huge fan of garage and punk rock or live next to an Amoeba or some similar vinyl superstore, or your uncle just died and left you with a few hundred records.

The former would be true. I am a big fan of Hardcore Punk and Post punk, as well as many pre-60's recordings, so I figured if I'm going to make a jump, I might as well make it a very big one.

Of course, I will admit I know next to nothing about audiophile equipment. With a high quality set of headphones (I don't use speakers for a number of reasons), would a jump from a computer to a stereo be a big enough change to make it worth the effort?

[idiotec]

I've seen a lot of solutions for a player, and I plan to look at that soon.

But does anyone have a good site, or something, to find vinyl? As I mentioned, my local stores have beyond slim selections for vinyl. No point getting a player if I don't have anything to listen to on it.
Google and you will find a ton of options. New; Amazon has a good selection now, and I use Music Direct quite a bit. Used; Ebay is great, but there are others as well.



Ok, if that is the basis for comparison, yes. But I was thinking about the jump from CD audio using whatever stereo/speaker setup exists.

If you're listening to mp3s through computer speakers I'd switch to CDs and some decent bookshelf speakers before even thinking about vinyl, unless you're a huge fan of garage and punk rock or live next to an Amoeba or some similar vinyl superstore, or your uncle just died and left you with a few hundred records.
True, but if your putting together a stereo and are interested in vinyl, might as well get a turntable as well. I don't think the intro to vinyl means you have to experience the ultimate sonic upgrades it has to offer, you can simply enjoy collecting and listening to records.

[instantdeath999]

I also have to add that until now, somehow, I wasn't aware that speaker quality effects how the music will sound through high-quality headphones. It's actually very obvious, when I think about it.

[deathsshadow]

my favorite band (mindless self indulgence) still makes vinyl records.
even of their album that came out in 2008

[King_Nuthin]

True, but if your putting together a stereo and are interested in vinyl, might as well get a turntable as well. I don't think the intro to vinyl means you have to experience the ultimate sonic upgrades it has to offer, you can simply enjoy collecting and listening to records.
But the original poster specifically mentioned looking for a leap in audio quality (asking if it would be like switching from DVD to Blu-Ray) so its only natural to assume he is looking to achieve that and not just the collecting experience (which I probably personally place more value on than the audiophile experience, but I've still invested more than I'm recommending into the rig because in my experience spending a little more money the first time saves you money over the long haul).

[WhiffleBallTony]

I collect vinyl primarily because I just love it. There's some draw for me to have an album that I absolutely love in another format where it's much larger, tangible, and sounds better. So I do it mainly for nostalgic reasons. It all depends on your preference.

[a21schizoidman]

Yes, I realize this site is composed mostly of audiophiles, and I'm prepared for an overwhelming "yes".

So, I guess we can just skip the question. I do have other questions, however.

1. How much would a good vinyl player cost?

2. Where can I find good vinyl records? My best buy had very, very slim selections.

3. Are there more modern vinyl players that allow headphones (this is a huge purchasing decision), and possibly be compatible with Last.fm? If not, it's really no big deal... I can just play them on itunes simultaneously to get the record of playing them.

4. And finally... is it a very big difference? About the difference between DVD and Blu-ray? Greater?

well, it depends, what kind of music do you listen to, and how do you listen to it?

answers:
1. im not the best guy to ask, for this,
2. look at thrift stores, goodwill, resale shops, yard sales, garage sales, record shops
3. im not sure on modern, but many classic players do
4. YES, listening to a good pressing of vinyl compared to a CD, its like you had cotten shoved in your ears all that time

[Ziiggy Stardust]

a music store at my local mall sells a lot of vinyls, and if they dont have one you want, they order it for you. They have everything from classics to M.I.A to paramore

[idiotec]

But the original poster specifically mentioned looking for a leap in audio quality (asking if it would be like switching from DVD to Blu-Ray) so its only natural to assume he is looking to achieve that and not just the collecting experience (which I probably personally place more value on than the audiophile experience, but I've still invested more than I'm recommending into the rig because in my experience spending a little more money the first time saves you money over the long haul).
LOL, OK, but I just think it is be over complicated. Even from a pure SQ perspective, in my office second system I have a Pioneer PL-12D, hooked to an old Panasonic receiver, going to a pair of Paradigm Mini monitors. I had a $200 CD player hooked up to this system as well and the Pioneer TT blew the CD player away. The TT was a $20 craigslist buy and I put a $40 Grado Black on it. Sounds pretty damn good.

I have my main system that I spent several thousand on, and I love it, but I just don't want to scare people away from the hobby thinking they have to spend a fortune to get good sound and enjoy the hobby. Everyone needs to start somewhere, why not start with a minimal investment, see if it is something you enjoy, and then upgrade if you get into it? IMO that is a great way to start.

[OldFogey]

I have to disagree with Fogey, I think there is a lot of enjoyment to be had with vinyl without getting into audiophile level equipment.

The first bit of information that would be nice to have is what equipment you already have, but let’s assume you are starting fresh.

Your best bang for the buck on a budget will be with vintage equipment. I think you could put together a nice starter system with something like:

Turntable: $100-$150 - Some to look at here are 70’s era Japanese decks. Technics, Pioneer, etc. Other options might be an old Dual or Thorens.

Cartridge: $50-$100 – A TON of options. You pick this after the deck to find the best synergy.

Integrated Amp/Receiver: $50-$100 - You can find some old 70’s era integrated amps for really cheap and they can sound pretty nice. The nice thing here is that most/all will have built in phono stages, so one less thing to buy.

Speakers: $50-$200 – This is where you can still find some great deals on vintage speakers that will sound nice, or you can also get some could entry level speakers from something like Paradigm, PSB, MA, etc.

This puts together a system ranging from $200 - $550 depending on what you are willing to spend. Of course, if you can spend more, upgrades are to be had at all levels. It can be a great hobby and if you get into it upgrading and tweaking equipment is half the fun, so no need to start at the top right away.

As for records, your best bet is to find a good local used record store. There are still a ton of bargains to be had and you can find many records for $1-$5 a piece. Ebay can still be a nice place to look too.

You can do all this -- but, and it's a big but, that's not where the payoff from vinyl is. On an audio phile set up vinyl will sound a lot better than digital alternatives. On this set up it won't sound bad, but I doubt that you would hear an improvement over what you've got.

For this kind of money invest it in more music.

[idiotec]

You can do all this -- but, and it's a big but, that's not where the payoff from vinyl is. On an audio phile set up vinyl will sound a lot better than digital alternatives. On this set up it won't sound bad, but I doubt that you would hear an improvement over what you've got.

For this kind of money invest it in more music.
Well, I have to continue to respectively disagree. Maybe this is just where I am more of a music lover than an audiophile, but either way, I find that analog will sound better dollar for dollar than digital. So, if you still only have a few hundred to spend, you can still experience the sonic benefits vinyl has to offer.

I just find the attitude that if you cannot spend several hundred or more on a deck then it is not worth doing absurd.

[OldFogey]

Well, I have to continue to respectively disagree. Maybe this is just where I am more of a music lover than an audiophile, but either way, I find that analog will sound better dollar for dollar than digital. So, if you still only have a few hundred to spend, you can still experience the sonic benefits vinyl has to offer.

I just find the attitude that if you cannot spend several hundred or more on a deck then it is not worth doing absurd.

Look -- obviously bucks are at a premium in this scenario. So the question is where the biggest bang for the buck is. All I'm saying is the bang is probably not in a low end vinyl set up. If OP wants to go that way, you're right, he can get some decent stuff. I just bet he can invest more wisely somewhere else -- speakers or separate amp and pre amp or just in music.

[idiotec]

Well, I think we may just have to agree to disagree. :) One big variable here is what the OP already has which I have not seen him specify yet.

[King_Nuthin]

idiotec, another thing to consider is that the OP has clearly indicated that he hasn't even found a source (let alone a cheap one) for vinyl, so I think that throws non-audiophile arguments for vinyl out the window. If you can score volumes of music at a great price than listen to it on whatever you can afford, but if you're going to be buying $35 audiophile grade pressings online its not only a waste of money but potentially damaging to those discs if you're going to listen on a thrift store set up.

For the record I think the non-audiophile reasons are more compelling reasons to get into vinyl, but that's because I have always had easy access to the format through used record stores and because a good chunk of the music I like is only available on vinyl outside of compilations.

And again, in my opinion its best to spend money on things you can upgrade in the future (or buy from a shop that lets you trade up) rather than just throw away or stop using altogether, which is usually what happens when you look for the cheapest solution. Sometimes the long term cost savings far outweigh the quick fix.

[afterstasis]

i'm a big vinyl fan, though i don't consider myself an audiophile (if anything, i'm probably the opposite).

there's just something really exciting to me in those large record-sleeves and used vinyl heaps stored away for my discovery.

i think the four primary music formats (cd, cassette, vinyl, and mp3) all have their benefits to take advantage of.

[dalcyte]

You don't necessarily have be a 60s-80s type of guy to want vinyl. Right now, if you go to your local record store, you'll see that they probably have a bunch of newly made vinyl. Recently, record companies have been taking to releasing vinyl copies of new music, as well as re-releasing old music that hadn't previously been released on vinyl, on vinyl (like I've seen Amnesiac by Radiohead on Vinyl for instance). This stuff is fantastic quality, but i wouldn't go for it unless you really love sound quality. But I have a record player--i love it. Just the feel of it is really great, even if the sound quality isn't as great as a really good cd. Listening to those scratches with the music is actually for me really cool.

[DJFreddyG]

With acceptable cost, you can add a TT to a newer sound system. That's not too much of an issue. And yes you can pick up newer releases (and some big albums of the last 15 years) newly pressed on better vinyl than I had to work with 25 years ago.
However, the cost really revolves around older releases. Once you begin to appreciate the difference of the sound between Digital (clarity) and Analog (warmth), you can find yourself spending more and more on high-grade original (60's-80's) releases. And because of the delicate nature of vinyl, it is important to spend money on those pieces that offer the very best sound....those pieces that were cared for correctly.
I have always lived close to NYC, so access to reputable well stocked used record stores was easy. Truly there is nothing like picking up a used copy of a classic album/single you have been looking for forever, removing it from the sleave and giving it the visual once-over. Then ask the clerk to play it for you to get an idea of the sonic condition. When you find the right copy in the right condition, it seems there is no amount too high to pay. It is an experience lost in the digital era.
And for anyone even considering going vinyl, make sure to store the records correctly: never pile them flat, never keep them in damp surroundings and never place them in direct (high intensity) sunlight. Sort of like Gremlins.

[instantdeath999]

Looks like I'm getting a lot of mixed opinions.

I guess I'll have to do some more research. But, lets say money isn't an option. Can anyone give me some specific players I could look at? Keep in mind, I would be using headphones.

[King_Nuthin]

If money isn't an object, but keeping under $1000 since things go crazy above that price the Rega P3 is the one to get.

In the $500 range you can get the P2, or something like a Music Hall MMF5 (I actually have the special edition version of this table, the Rega tonearms are better but I got a nice deal on it). Also I think Pro-Ject has a table in this range.

You can go down to about $300 with these brands for their most entry level offerings.

I posted a link to the tube phono stage with a headphone amp in it a few pages back. You can also get ones by Pro-Ject for around $100 or Creek in the $150-200 range and get the headphone amp or receiver with headphones out of your choice. Or you can look for an old receiver that has a Phono plug in.

Project offers the Debut turntable line with a built in phono stage, if you want to keep things simple. They even have a USB model.
http://www.project-audio.com/main.php?prod=debutphusb&cat=turntables&lang=en

The drawback to integrated Phono stages is that you can't isolate any potential interference, and if you want to upgrade you have to start from scratch. I personally wouldn't get that as my main table, but you could do a lot worse.

[idiotec]

Those are solid recommendations.

Another choice, if we are sticking with new, is a Technics 12XX. These have been making a comeback in the hifi world lately. The benefits are they are easily accessible, you can pick one up locally most likely, and there is also a pretty nice upgrade path for them. Check out KAB USA. They are also built like a tank.

I personally prefer the finesse of the belt drives like King_Nuthin suggested, but both have their pluses and minuses.

As far as getting it hooked up to your headphones I think a vintage receiver is a great way to go. I have been playing with a Marantz 2226B and the thing is very impressive. Anything in the 22 series would be nice. Like I mentioned earlier, I have the Bellari VP129 phono stage which has a built in headphone amp. Comparing the two for your purpose: The Bellari is a better phono preamp than the built in phono stage in the Marantz, but I like the headphone amp better in the Marantz. The Marantz would also have the added benefit of a tuner, bass, treble and midrange adjustments, and the ability to hook up to speakers if you decide to add them later.

If you decide to take the plunge, check out the following resources:

http://www.vinylengine.com/phpBB2/index.php

http://www.audioasylum.com/cgi/etv.mpl?forum=vinyl

Edit: Just thought of another nice receiver option if you want to stick with new gear:

http://www.outlawaudio.com/products/rr2150.html