I feel cheated...

[Snacks]

So, I just bought RockBand under the impression that singing was INTEGRATED into the online play, meaning that other players could see and hear how you are doing in real time. However, now that I've learned the opposite I'm a bit pissed.

Now, I understand after reading other threads why this isn't possible (lag, timing, etc) and I'm not one to *****, It just seems that EA or whoever has not been forthcoming about this limitation and it makes me angry.

I feel that they are intentionally skirting the issue and staying mum about it to sell more games. If you look at the current FAQ there is nothing about the singing online issue BUT look at part 1.8.2 (Why can’t other people hear me singing online?) on this cached version from google...

http://64.233.169.104/search?q=cache:HyewNTysBmYJ:www.rockband.com/faq+rockband+singing+lag&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=4&gl=us&client=firefox-a

I've been a fan of the Karaoke Revolution series forever and was excited and hopeful that RockBand would add another dimension to the experience, but unfortunately not.

[Eman311]

I don't really why it's that huge of a deal.

also, they never promised you would be heard online. unless you can prove me otherwise.

[Tekkor]

Yeah I hear you (no pun intended) however to be honest Im glad its like it is for me anyway. Me and a friend have been playing the game with our wives singing...I know for a fact my wife would not sing if she knew other people could hear her.

[SoulScreme]

So, I just bought RockBand under the impression that singing was INTEGRATED into the online play, meaning that other players could see and hear how you are doing in real time. However, now that I've learned the opposite I'm a bit pissed.

Now, I understand after reading other threads why this isn't possible (lag, timing, etc) and I'm not one to *****, It just seems that EA or whoever has not been forthcoming about this limitation and it makes me angry.

I feel that they are intentionally skirting the issue and staying mum about it to sell more games. If you look at the current FAQ there is nothing about the singing online issue BUT look at part 1.8.2 (Why can’t other people hear me singing online?) on this cached version from google...

http://64.233.169.104/search?q=cache:HyewNTysBmYJ:www.rockband.com/faq+rockband+singing+lag&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=4&gl=us&client=firefox-a

I've been a fan of the Karaoke Revolution series forever and was excited and hopeful that RockBand would add another dimension to the experience, but unfortunately not.

Broken instruments, Les Paul non-functional on PS3, fan cap, and this is what irks you?

[SoberScott]

It doesnt matter to me. What if it didnt matter what notes others hit online on guitars and drums though? Then there would be no reason to play them online. Same goes for singing. Whats the point of having online if it isnt fully utilized?

[jq715861]

There is no possible way for voice to be sent over a game like this without causing a slight delay.

If they implemented voice people would be complaining that there is a lag. It's just not physically possible to do it and have no lag.

[Snacks]

I understand all of the above points, my issue was simply that they weren't clear about it. All day you'll hear things like "Rock out with your friends online!" and singing IS a major part of the game but there is never any mention of the limitation. Imagine if there were no track for the other players that you could see or hear, it's basically the same thing, for me anyway. I'm not great at the guitar etc (yet) but one thing I can definitely do is sing, and I was hoping to contribute that to the online "band" experience. Meh.

[Ryder35]

correct me if I am wrong here but you do not hear your friends play guitar or drum either. You hear them activate pre recorded tracks ;) HMX clearly stated on these forums that there would be no singing transmitted due to lag issues well before the game was released.

[dshiznat]

uhh who cares besides yourself

[IbanezBassist_v2]

I guess you learned your lesson. More research.

[logicalnoise]

the triggers allow you to chat do they deactivate the vocal gameplay or what?

[Bluvox]

I think it's more than lag, honestly. They are using "Lag" as the reason, but if you look at the bandwidth requirements to transmit voice, along with the lag, it could be an issue. Not as much as it used to be, the compression keeps getting better, but lag would be an issue.

You have to think about how XBL (and I think PSN) do the gaming. It's not all going to a big centralized server and then dolled out to each player. One player hosts the match, and the others get information from them. So if the vocals was 16kbps (extremely well compressed) you'd be using 48kbps streaming to 4 locations over the internet from the Host, and if the host wasn't the singer the host machine would have to receive the voice and then re-transmit it. Lag is a part of the issue, but in general bandwith would be as well. Most games attempt to stay at the 30kbps level of information transmitted total, to be as compatible with various Internet services.

Vocals online would be neat, I think maybe it would have been better if they had the host and/or vocals person decide if it was on as a switch though. Something they can review for future development, though.

[Bakkster]

I guess you learned your lesson. More research.

Ditto. I didn't expect Rock Band to make me a tasty Sammich, because I know the 360 isn't capable of it.


I think it's more than lag, honestly. They are using "Lag" as the reason, but if you look at the bandwidth requirements to transmit voice, along with the lag, it could be an issue. Not as much as it used to be, the compression keeps getting better, but lag would be an issue.

Even with infinite bandwidth, latency is the reason why online vocals wouldn't work. More bandwidth would make the vocals clearer, but they would still be a beat behind the music. If you really want to, hold down the trigger buttons and listen to your band-mates squirm. I guarantee it's not caused by bandwidth, just the lag.

Well, maybe also because you're a horrible singer, but mostly lag ;)

[Thrashdragon]

The fact that singers cannot be heard by other players online has been known for months. It has been discussed on this board several times prior to release. If it's such an important issue, you should look into it a bit more next time. A company isn't going to put every tiny little thing into a FAQ.

[Sonofmogh]

I guess you learned your lesson. More research.

Don't listen to this guy...he's an @$$...I've gotten plenty of his ignorant sob PM's to prove it too.

I also figured that singing would be heard over online play from all the stuff I read over the course of this year...literally checking IGN and gamespot for interviews and checking the Wikipedia page of RB for updates as well as looking at this forum every day since the game was announced in April or so...but I guess they never explicitly said that. The fact is the Vocal aspect was a very overlooked and/or dodged issue in pre-release hype and progress reports. HMX never really came out and said what the singing experience would be wholly like...they gave details about the mic and the vocal HUD, but more detailed questions were answered ambiguously...

(If this question was answered beforehand it was either only half-answered, answered ambiguously, answered explictly in some random post that faded quickly into obscurity, or answered very recently, like in the past two months or so...With the amount of extensive research I did I find it very difficult to believe that a detail like this would just pass right under my nose without me picking up on it...)

Fortunately, I could care less. I like the fact that I can't hear the person, they can help the team out, but we don't have to listen to their horribly off-key laggy drunken murmurs while they attempt to do so! I have heard someone singing over XBL though...IDK whether they were holding down the triggers on their controller at the same time or whether they were using a headset or what, but it is possible to force other players to listen to you...if it's that big a deal. My perspective is this: If you bought this game mainly to focus on the singing, you are underappreciating the game...pick up a strat or some drumsticks man!

[Bakkster]

Fortunately, I could care less. I like the fact that I can't hear the person, they can help the team out, but we don't have to listen to their horribly off-key laggy drunken murmurs while they attempt to do so! I have heard someone singing over XBL though...IDK whether they were holding down the triggers on their controller at the same time or whether they were using a headset or what, but it is possible to force other players to listen to you...if it's that big a deal. My perspective is this: If you bought this game mainly to focus on the singing, you are underappreciating the game...pick up a strat or some drumsticks man!

It's possible (by holding the trigger) but there's no way for it to work reliably. I just don't think that HMX should have to inform everyone how the internet (and music) works.

And agreed: if you want other people to hear you sing, it's best to be in the same room as they are... so they can throw stuff at you ;)

[Sonofmogh]

It's possible (by holding the trigger) but there's no way for it to work reliably. I just don't think that HMX should have to inform everyone how the internet (and music) works.

And agreed: if you want other people to hear you sing, it's best to be in the same room as they are... so they can throw stuff at you ;) I will say that it seems foolish to think that you could integrate vocals into online play without lag, but then again, this game is supposed to be very high-end tech...if they would just say that it can't happen because of lag issues, I wouldn't argue...it's perfectly logical, but I don't think a company should just assume that people will know that current tech standards are prohibitive to the addition of this feature. I think this because technology can change...in the future they might be able to do this. Right now they can't, everybody should be able to accept that, but you gotta mention it...don't leave out details.

[tbradshaw]

I think this because technology can change...in the future they might be able to do this. Right now they can't, everybody should be able to accept that, but you gotta mention it...don't leave out details.

Well, I think that's kind of what the guys are getting at. It's not that "right now they can't", it's that "physics makes long distance singing with a remote band nearly impossible".

1) The Perfect Network

With some simple napkin math, this is testable. Let's do the first case the "perfect" network. We're going to play Rock Band from Boston to LA and we're going to do it using a pure energy beam of information. Zero mechanical latency from microphone diaphragms or processing or routing or anything.

The distance through the air from Boston to LA is about 2,596 miles, or 4,177,857 meters, or 4.1 million meters--for short. The speed of light in a vacuum is about 300 million meters per second and air only slightly slows that down (enough that we don't care). This gives a "perfect" (or impossible) base latency of 14 milliseconds. Not bad, definitely playable.

2) The Unreal but Realish Signal

Next, let's not talk about a pure energy beam or anything silly, and instead let's use a single beautiful piece of fiber optic cable that stretches just as the planes fly from LA to Boston. The speed of light through fiber optic glass is only about 200 million meters per second. This brings our Unreal but somewhat Realish signal base latency to 21 milliseconds. Still playable, but we're certainly in the realm of noticeable. (Of note 2/3 the speed of light is about the propagation speed of electric signal through copper, too.)

Of course, at this point we're still talking ridiculously unrealistic numbers. You've got signal propagation, the computer processing, then network bundling, and then transmission, and then umpteenzillion routers to be processed through. As a ballpark estimate, I think "Live" TV, at it's best, is a few seconds behind. (Often it's delayed more than that, to allow editing, probably like 15 seconds or more... but I'm pretty sure I've seen as close as 3 seconds.)

Of course, even 3 seconds is just unreasonable for a singing game. The only way that you could really transmit the singer in time would be to have them sing the song in advance (probably 30 seconds in advance) and then relay the sound to everyone else. Sadly, that would keep the singer from participating at all and make things like "Savior" a thing of the past.

While I realize your disappointment with the lack of voice being available for online play, Harmonix had to choose between two options. 1) Play the vocalist in advance to allow sound to be played for everyone else. 2) Allow the vocalist to "play" the game with their band mates and share in the experience of making the music happen.

I respect that you really want to be able to sing online, but please don't feel like Harmonix or anyone has cheated you. Reality is against you on this one, it's just not physically possible. Instantaneous information travel is right there with teleporters, warp drives, and ESP.

I hope you still end up liking the game!