Ok someone explain music license to me...

[Tekkor]

Ok Ill admit Im a bit of newb on this....someone explain how it works to me because Im interested in regards to how it works in relation to Rock Band.

Why is there difficulty at all on getting music on DLC for Rock Band?

Let me rephrase.....Wouldnt every band DIE to have thier songs be offered for download for this game as Im sure they receive a cut of the DLC cost from the end user correct? Or does it work in some other way where Harmonix/EA has to pay them a huge chunk of money to even use the song?

Also....why the covers? I mean...its cheaper to have a cover band version for EA/Harmonix somehow?

I guess I just dont understand why say any band wouldnt be calling up saying "Man you guys can have my whole album to put on there just give me my cut on the DLC cost."

[Wolvklawz]

I agree as well. Plus not to mention the fact that your song gets played over and over, there are songs that I have hated, then at some point I started to like it and purchased the album (hated primus but GH II changed that). Not only do they get for sure profit, that in a sense is better than a music CD because we can't just go download it for free. But they also get their music heard over and over again, it can only build on their popularity.

Shadows Fall is an awesome band, never heard of them before GH II. For Rock Band I really enjoyed Fly Leaf, I wouldn't have given them the time of day otherwise. I don't get it either lol. But I know this much, once Metallica allowed their music on it, then it's only downhill from here. Metallica aren't dummies and they are one of the few bands that truly fight for their music in general. Then theres bands like Led Zepplin, who to me just seem greedy.

Plus the music sales have spiked for bands on this and GH, I think we are out of the woods as far as bands wanting to get their stuff out. Now its probably just finalizing deals, and making the songs. But I can't and won't even presume to say I know what has to happen behind the scenes to get music from a band onto a game like this. But I think in simple terms and don't see anything here that is a "loose" for any band only "Win Win".

[0tj]

Lots of bands don't want their music in Rock Band for reasons unbeknownst to me and the cover band is made of entirely Harmonix staff.

[mind_in_rewind]

Covers happen when the original master tracks to a song either can't be found, or have deteriorated. Remember, bands used to record on tape.

[Rock_Starman]

Covers are because sometimes they can't find the masters. There used to be another reason but I don't remember it though it seems that's the main one now. I also think they're cheaper. The masters are needed so each instrument can be seperated. Yes they have to pay for things,I doubt they have to pay for their own HMX bands and I read a story about Zakk Wylde just wanting to be in GH 1/wondering why he was left out and he made his management give them the song but otherwise yea it cost money.

There was a post in the old GH forums explaining why some bands didn't want songs to be in. Don't remember it exactly. I think some just don't get it (apprently the Romantics didn't),some didn't want their songs covered,some didn't want people to think because they could play it in the game they could play it for real,some cases peoples familes had to be asked and wouldn't allow it,some wanted too much money (though I doubt that's much of a problem now) and apprently plenty of other unspecified reasons.

[Tekkor]

I would love to hear a HMX rep give a brief example maybe citing an example of what happens (even if they call it Song A from Band B).

[Rogue Marvel]

I don't know how it works for rock band but I have a bit of a knowledge of how difficult it is to license music for other entertainment.

Songs have two copy rights on them. There is the original copyright for the written song and then the copyright on the song recording. So if you want to use a song you have to get both. Generally the copy right on the written song is held by the person who wrote it, and the recording is held by the record company, sometimes the artist or whoever owns the catalog.

while I'm sure some of the reasons rock band has the covers is because the master recording was lost but I wouldn't be surprised if some of the covers are because the owner of the recording wouldn't let them have it or were asking too much.

[Frederf]

There are different kinda of licenses relating to creative works, like one might be "license to make a movie out of it" and one might be "license to make a toy out of it" and so on.

Turns out the license and permission required to use it in a video game is not the same license to sell/buy it on iTunes.

[erickOnasis412]

everybody seems to be hitting the key points it seems

in an interview i read, i BELIEVE some artists who don't allow their music to be in the game "don't get it", like Rock_Starman above me said.. meaning, they don't think that a video game is going to help their music sales, but instead may jeopardize their image or something..

i mean there could be many reasons though, i'm sure it's different for each.. some probably aren't offered enough money, some probably think video games are just a "fad" and won't help them at all, and there are probably some other reasons..

if i had to guess, i'd lean towards the fact that some of these older artists (and let's be realistic, some ARE just old now a days lol) just don't get how a video game, something they don't know much about, will actually help them or ther image.. some may think its kindof a mockery

that's just my guess though

[Matsuiichi]

In additions to reasons like master tracks being unable to be found, or for other reasons, sometimes it just makes more sense to make the new songs into covers.

For example, in "Carry on My Wayward Son" and "Jessica" in Guitar Hero II, a good deal of the guitar parts in the covers, were actually done by pianos in the master recording. To make the song work, they needed to use creative license in a cover to make it worth playing in Guitar Hero.

So, it can also be because they need/want to add or take out things into the song that would affect the fun of the song, like taking out the long section of "Can't You Hear Me Knockin'" in Guitar Hero II.

Not saying those are the reasons, just saying those could be contributing factors to the use of covers.

[SoulScreme]

Here are some reasons a band would say no to being on Rock Band:


The band is old, for example Led Zeppelin, and the remaining members don't get it.
The band is old and the rights to the songs belong to many parties.
The band wants way too much money.
The band wants to do it, but the record execs don't.
Corporate grudges between the record company and MTV/EA/Harmonix
Record labels wanting exclusivity. (Only BMG music in the game)
Bands do not want their songs to be heard in an altered form. (Covered, screwed up, on the fly fills)


These are just a few of the reasons it is tough to do this.

[sickdaddy]

For royalty information
check out www.harryfox.com

[ibender]

Lots of bands don't want their music in Rock Band for reasons unbeknownst to me and the cover band is made of entirely Harmonix staff.

That's incorrect. the covers are done at a studio called WaveGroup by various session musicians.

[Varsps]

That's incorrect. the covers are done at a studio called WaveGroup by various session musicians.

think he was talking about the bonus songs all being harmonix staff

[Tekkor]

Dumb question related to that....what do the songs with the blue dot next to them mean?

[Eastwood]

They are bonus songs.

I have found that a lot of the bands on the Zune Marketplace that are unavailable are a lot of the songs that are covers or non-existant in any of the GH's and RB. That means that whoever owns the majority of rights to those properties either a.) does not want to share, b.) wants too much money, or c.) Someone other than the artist owns the rights.

A perfect example of c.) is the Beatles. In order for us to get the Beatles into RB, someone has to go talk to THE Michael Jackson, since he basically swiped the rights from underneath Paul McCartney. I won't go talk to him. He might try to touch my wing dang doodle.

[Nekura20x6]

When you make a cover of a song, you only have to secure the publishing rights for the song and not the rights to reproduce the original performance. This is usually cheaper because many times the publishing and/or songwriting rights to a song will lie with the producer or label and not the performing artist(s).

This is the basis of the lawsuit filed by the Ramones against Activision (http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/ent/5323855.html). Their point is that if you plan to make a new recording that sounds *exactly* like the original, the publisher should have to pay to use the original performance since they are emulating it in every detail.

If they win, this could screw a big segment of the karoke industry who use this royalties loophole to crank out vocal-less covers.

Edit: Speaking of Michael Jackson, there's an article on Snopes that explains (http://www.snopes.com/music/artists/jackson.asp) his deal with the Beatle's rights and about song rights in general.

[topperharley]

some probably aren't offered enough money, some probably think video games are just a "fad" and won't help them at all, and there are probably some other reasons

I would guess the "fad/won't benefit us" attitude is more prevalent than the "not enough money" attitude. For a band like Metallica, who has been hugely selective in who can license their music, royalties from a relative niche video game is a drop in the bucket compared to what they make on album sales, ticket sales, concert concessions, etc. Plus, it's not as though Metallica needs the added exposure.

For a small, independent band, however, it's additional exposure and an extra check every month (or however often), so there's more upside.

[thegreatpablo]

This is the basis of the lawsuit filed by the Ramones against Activision (http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/ent/5323855.html).

Not a huge issue, but worth noting, it was the Romantics, not the Ramones.

[Comedian]

I can't find the darn reference now, but one of the articles about the music in GH3 and RB just before the release talked about Metallica specifically. It said that prior to this year's games, all songs were licensed on a fixed-fee basis. However Metallica was unwilling to license their music without getting a percentage of the sales or profits.

If the producers of both games were willing to make that concession to their cost model for one band, I'm betting they made it for others as well. This may have been one of the changes that opened the floodgates to so many original recordings in GH3 and RB; along with the simple fact that the games are more established and proven today than they were two years ago when GH1 came out.

[Rockisthelaw]

I have seen a lot good stuff about licensing and I am suprised by how of you know what goes on with music licensing. I thought I would add my two sense into the mix as I studied music copyright law.

Basically there are two copyrights embodied in a musical work one is for the musical work (which is known as the composition) and the actual physical sound recording (which is the master as so many have mentioned)

To secure the original rights to a song you usually have to negotiate a rate with the record label (who will own the master unless the artist has reclaimed their masters) and the artist or the publisher who will own the composition of the song (all depends on what deal they have signed).

So why doesn't everyband get into Rock band? It boils down to not being able to secure the rights to a song from the record label and the artist or publisher for a resonable price and in rare cases the master is lost or unusable (usually not the case).

Why does harmonix do cover songs? Glad you asked! Under the copyright law of the United States any person is entitled to release a cover of a copyrighted work using a complusory license. The cover version must be distinguishable from the original work and then all you have to do is pay the government set royalty fee for each copy of the song distributed (I think it is around 9.1 cents). You can negotiate this with the harry fox agency, again like people have mentioned.

So why doesn't harmonix do covers of all the songs in the game? My guess is that it is time consuming and most people want to play the original because hey the cover can only sound so similar without being an infringement.

Final questions why don't bands jump to have their songs in the game? Older bands definitely should as they will most likely own both of the copyrights embodied in their musical works. To newer bands, depending on the record deal they signed, it might not be worth it to them as their record label/publisher gets the lionshare of the royalty money provide by the sale of songs and the bands share might not even be paid to them if they still have recording and marketing costs that have not been recouped by the record label.

There you go hope that helps

[HMXJohnlok]

Lots of bands don't want their music in Rock Band for reasons unbeknownst to me and the cover band is made of entirely Harmonix staff.

This is actually not true. Many of our bonus tracks offered include Harmonix bands or Harmonix employees' bands, but the covers themselves are usually done by Wave Group.

edit: I'll see if we can do a blog on this process at some point - no guarantees. I believe there are articles about this floating around somewhere so you may want to take a look.

[sickdaddy]

holy crap. how can you mistake the ramones for the romantics when you are including a link to the article? did you read it?