homemade kickpedal idea: would this work?

[MegaGoo]

my kick pedal broke in the middle of playing and justice for all (search youtube megagoo99 for the video of me breaking it) and im searching for a replacement. i put in a warranty claim with EA but i want something more sturdy. so this is what im thinking:

take a normal kick drum pedal

http://img3.musiciansfriend.com/dbase/pics/products/regular/9/7/8/475978.jpg

get something that the beater can hit to simulate hitting the real kick drum and offer a natural bounce back like a real kick drum offers like:

http://img3.musiciansfriend.com/dbase/pics/products/regular/1/8/4/373184.jpg

a momentary pushbutton switch (normally open) .. right?

http://rsk.imageg.net/graphics/product_images/pRS1C-2160454w345.jpg

mount the button in the foam of the kick drum foam pad so that when the button is pushed all the way down, it is flush with the foam (to minimize wear & tear on the button as a whole) (and maybe put some foam behind the button too)... line it up centered with where the kick drum beater would hit obviously

thats it. this should work right? of course just wire up the button with stereo speaker wire with a mono 1/8" male plug (to plug into the drumset)

what *I* would personally do is get a double kick drum pedal but only line up 1 button with the right foot. this means that for the double bass stuff where harmonix puts in every other beat as the one that needs to be hit, i can do double bass. the left kick pedal wont register obviously which is desired. this will help with timing. if im use to playing a song with double bass (all the metallica songs have it) it throws me off to have to hit the first, 3rd, 5th etc of a double-bass roll, with one foot.

do you guys think this would work ok? im willing to invest the 130+60 for a double kick and beater pad, and couple bucks for buttons and wire if it means a perminant, unbreakable, more accurate way to play drums with rockband.


i was thinking about mounting the button on a block of wood below the pedal, but i need a beater on the kick drum pedal. so it seems like my kicks would be more accurate if it was being trigger by a beater rather than trying to get it PERFECTLY lined up to where if it was underneath the pedal it would be triggered at the exact moment the beater hits the foam

if i need a switch thats more heavy duty, a quick google for "heavy duty momentary button" turns up some on ebay for 5 bucks

http://i14.ebayimg.com/04/i/000/c6/d7/b7c7_1.JPG

[SoulScreme]

The button would crack almost instantly.

[Harsher]

a guy did something very similar to this and it worked so i assume it would but that other guy is right, you need a different push button, something smaller maybe.

[MegaGoo]

even if it supported in the rear by foam and the most the beater would press in would be no father than the extent that the button could be pushed in?


The button would crack almost instantly.

[Zanaflex]

You are a agressive player, so the previous poster is probably right that the button would break. Also I hate the idea of you buying this stuff, and then ruining the bass drum "simulator" by drilling a hole into the foam pad on it (if I understand you correctly).

If you do buy both of these pieces I would at least mount something (like a thin piece of wood) to the foam "head" of the bass drum part. AND I would get a different switch (which would be easy enough) that is made out of metal. Maybe buy acouple just in case you break one. That is another reason why you don't want to permantly modify any of the equipment you buy. I see alot of posts with people using wood blocks, duct tape etc.... Might look like crap, BUT at least you can take it all off and cause no permanent damage.

But you're idea is great and I love it. And it is your money, and yes it will all work as you have it.

[MegaGoo]

ok how about the heavy duty ones i edited my post with? honestly thats not my main concern. i can always rig up something so that as little force is pushed on it as possible like maybe even recessing the buttons in a hole and putting something like a spring between the button and beater to absorb the shock. or a spring behind the button.

is that even the correct type of button needed? a pushbutton momentary on (normally off button...

[MegaGoo]

keep in mind im flushmounting whatever button so that the beater can NOT depress the button any more than the button can physically be pressed. im gonna make sure of that. either that and/or put foam on the front and/or back of the button like i said in my last post

[Stevenam81]

Yeah, I mentioned an idea similar to this in another thread. I really like the idea and hope some people perfect it. I also mentioned seperating the wire and running one end up the practice mad. Put something on the pad that is conductive like a piece of metal where there beater will hit. Then run the other wire up the underside of the pedal, up the arm, and to the beater. That way when the beater hits the pad it will complete the circuit and register the hit. I think this could turn out well with the right materials and if done right.

[MegaGoo]

Yeah, I mentioned an idea similar to this in another thread. I really like the idea and hope some people perfect it. I also mentioned seperating the wire and running one end up the practice mad. Put something on the pad that is conductive like a piece of metal where there beater will hit. Then run the other wire up the underside of the pedal, up the arm, and to the beater. That way when the beater hits the pad it will complete the circuit and register the hit. I think this could turn out well with the right materials and if done right.

i see what you're saying. thats interesting.... i wouldnt want to internally imbed a sensor in the beater. i guess technically you could rig up something that is the same as the existing EA kick pad with magnents. ... the beater-hitting-button thing just seemed more logical and was what i thought of first.

[Stevenam81]

I do like the practice pad you chose. I also like the idea of using a double bass with a button just for the right beater. I'm the same way, I'm so used to moving my other foot, it throws me off to just use my right foot. I also like the button method better since I dont have to modify the actual pedal at all and its easy to put back on my real drumset.

[Stevenam81]

I just meant get one of those flat beaters like the iron cobra uses and put a small metal contact on it with the wire going to it. So every time the flat beater hit the pad the two contacts would touch. If done right, nothing would wear out. There would be no button to break. But if you found the right button and flush mounted it, I think that would last a while too.

One bad thing, metal on metal would be loud lol.

[Stevenam81]

If we can just find a button that is made for this sort of thing we'll be in business.

[MegaGoo]

One bad thing, metal on metal would be loud lol.

ouch yea i guess so huh. you could probably make the two metal pieces that touch VERY small so it doesnt pierce your ears or anything


i dont know. i may pull the trigger on this asap. i dont feel like blowing 200 bucks on all of this but whatver i guess.. i may try and just mount the button on wood below the pedal like everyone else but have the beater and beater plate stand thing. i could probably mount the button just a tad too far away from making contact with the pedal underside, and put some very narrow shims or washers on top of the button to make it so it is activated the moment the beater touched the foam.. that may be simpler in the long run..




im trying to figure out if accuracy would be a factor. obviously my way would have the button being activated for only a split second, whereas the EA controller's "button" is activated way longer because its a magnent in the pedal itself. im guessing there is some threshold before and after the kick on the screen where you have to hit it. i ASSUME it doesnt matter how long a button is pushed, as if the initial contact is too early or too late, no matter how long contact is made, the hit is counted as a missed note. so assuming that i should be ok. if not i wasted a bunch of money. but i could return the kick drum pedals and kicker plate to guitar center since they will not be modified and get my 200 bucks back :)

[Stevenam81]

if not i wasted a bunch of money. but i could return the kick drum pedals and kicker plate to guitar center since they will not be modified and get my 200 bucks back :)

You might want to test your idea with just a button first. Just to see how it works out and if quick presses register. Once you mount that button, that kicker plate is yours. And yeah, small metal will work. I'm thinking like thin metal. It's ok if it can bend as long as it doesn't crumple up like foil lol. There has to be a way to put some kind of contact on the beater and one on the practice pad. If putting the button under the pedal, it might be tough to have the button press when the beater hits the pad. I'd rather have the connection accur when the beater makes contact with the pad. Then it will definately feel natural.

[nonrate]

The kick pedal assembly consists of a permanent magnet that effectively disrupts an electromagnetic field created by a circuit housed at the front of the pedal. I haven't taken this apart yet, but a more durable, easier, and effective method than using a pushbutton that will not yield good results would be to:

- Disassemble the electromagnetic sensor at the front of the pedal
- Implant a permanent magnet into the beater, or affix in some way
- Mount the electromagnetic sensor in a position that approximates the location of the existing pedal to permanent magnet

I was thinking of doing this at first, but it was far less effort to get a metal plate at the hardware store, about 6 inches long and 1.5 inches wide (used for door latches) and just drill it into the pedal. I also cracked my pedal in half, and since I did this, it works better than when I got it. It also weights the pedal a bit to overcome the stiff spring so it feels more natural.

Good luck, I would not ask EA for a replacement of the pedal since your guaranteed to break it again if you plan on playing anything that mimics a real drum style. Whatever you choose to do, good luck to you.

[Stevenam81]

I'm not really worried about my pedal breaking. I just want it to feel more like a real kick. I understand how the Rock Band pedal works. I've been thinking about going to Frys and buying a mono wire with 1/8" jack, an electromagnetic sensor, and magnet. Then doing basically what you suggested. Maybe put the sensor behind the practice pad and somehow embed the magnet into the beater. In this configuration, I don't know how well the magnet would work since the beater would hit quickly and for a short time. For me, the metal plate at the hardware store isn't a substitute for what I am wanting to accomplish. If I was only worried about the pedal being durable, I would probably do something like that.

[nonrate]

I just did an experiment on the kick assembly. It does appear this is a basic switch - when I plugged in a mono 1/8" jack, and connected the ends together, it did register a "hit". I originally assumed there was more electronics involved with the electromagnetic sensor, but what's probably happening it the magnet is inducing enough current in the sensor (probably just a copper coil) to power a semiconductor based circuit to complete a loop and close the circuit. This would explain why the magnet in the pedal is so strong. So keep that in mind when you go out and buy a sensor at fry's - you want to make sure it's a sensor that requires no external power and acts as a switch from current created by the motion of a permanent magnet.

Also keep in mind polarity will make a difference. In the current assembly (if using a copper coil as a sensor), move the magnet in one direction (press in?) it creates a positive current flow. Move in the other direction (depress?) it creates a negative current. Have you noticed when depressing the pedal does not register a hit? This could make sense if the sensor inside uses a diode or transistor to only close the switch on either a positive or negative current flow. This would mean whatever replacement sensor you purchase, you'd want to make sure it will close the switch based on either a positive or negative current flow.

If your real savvy, you could go to radio shack and build your own sensor. You can get it all at Radio Shack or fry's and I bet all you'd need to do is get a coil in a ferrite core, a diode, and a permanent magnet.

Another elegant idea here could be the use of piezoelectric switch on a pad. That could be a more accurate trigger over the magnet. This is because with the magnet idea, you may not register kicks that are the result of using the kick recoil. Because the magnet would need to "Create a current", it would have to do so by the beater approaching the sensor at a high enough speed. You might find that to pull off quick beats, your beater doesn't move back far enough to create enough current on the second hit to register. You could build a piezoelectric switch - A piezoelectric sensor taped on the pad with a transistor to close the switch. The pads in the RB kit use piezoelectric sensors. I know this because one of my pads stopped working last night and it was because I found one of the connections to the piezo switch had broke off. I soldered it back and it works great now.

Now I'm going to have to go to radio shack to experiment with this stuff. I'll post a follow up. Good luck, you should be able to find something that works for you at fry's.

[superchud]

Its a N/O magnetic reed switch is all, like used for access control systems, and alarm systems.

So any N/O reed switch will work, the problem with reed switches is they will activate before it comes in contact. If you put a volt meter on your bass pedal and push the pedal down slowly it will activate halfway down (or you could just push it down slowly at the start of a song).

What I am going to try to use is a N/O pressure switch mat that activate on 3lbs per inch pressure.

[Tarzanman]

Any switch you use is going to eventually break from wear... which is probably the reason that HMX went with a magnet/coil in the first place.

[nonrate]

Wow, a reed switch? That's horrible... a mechanical component. That's not going to last forever. I mean, you play the game for an hour that's up to a few thousand clicks. I bet these switches will start to fail in a few months for a lot of folks. For the hard core players, it looks like there's going to be a market for third party RB components.

[Bluvox]

http://www.audio-discounters.com/8601.html

$3.50 plus tax, has both Normally Open and Normall Close operation. Could mount the passive side to the top of the clapper, the side with the wire to the pad on top of where the clapper hit, and you'd be set.

http://www.amazon.com/Pulse-Pro-Single-Kick-Pedal/dp/B0002F5J1S

$40 for the pedal, think I saw that model for $25 somewhere earlier (edit - found it for $25 on amazon). Not sure how much the practice pad for the mallet would be.

EDIT - found the practice pad, $41 at Sam Ash -

http://www.samash.com/catalog/showitem.asp?ItemPos=0&TempID=1&STRID=155531&Method=2&CategoryID=0&BrandID=0&PriceRangeID=0&PageNum=0&DepartmentID=0&pagesize=10&SortMethod=2&SearchPhrase=bass+practice&Contains=%2Abass%2A+AND+%2Apractice%2A&Search_Type=SEARCH&GroupCode=

So all together you'd probably spend about $75 for the rig, I'd start with the magnetic switch though, may try to find the parts this weekend to play with it. Can always build from there.

[Cliffhanger]

Dude, I think there's a much easier and more practical alternative to buying a switch that gets hit each time your pedal kicks.

I was also looking into the idea of making a more realistic bass drum pedal, and the idea I had was,

It appears to me (I could be wrong) that the way the current pedal functions is that there is a small magnet at the tip of the plastic pedal, which as you push down it nears the black outlined section of the base of the pedal. I'm thinking (since I see no other wiring to detect when the pedal is down) that there is a unit inside that outlined black section at the top of the pedal which detects when the magnet is near.

So all you have to do is unscrew/drill out that electronic unit, keep it plugged into your kit just like normal, but move it over to whatever solid surface you have simulating the drum, and then put a magnet on your pedal's hammer.

Whala! Should work, and requires no outside purchase of electronics.

[Stevenam81]

Yeah, but I don't want to take apart the Rock Band pedal. I'm sure someone will get something working soon. I'd rather have a switch that responds to the actual beater hitting the pad. Not a button though. Maybe a magnet, but I don't like the idea of using a magnet with a real pedal, beater, and pad. It works well with the Rock Band pedal, but that is because it is designed to. I'm sure they did the math on the distance of the magnets and made the plastic housing based on that.

[Tarzanman]

No math was needed... magnetic switches are readily available online and cost like $4.

[PHiNiX]

if a company even harmonix came out with a sturdier bass pedal i would buy it
i think the reason its so cheap is for price

[loweredd]

What if you just bought the pedal assembly, and used a normally closed switch, and attached it to the pedal assembly, so when you pushed down on the pedal, it would open the circuit and register a hit? Less parts to buy, and you could take off the head (?) and wouldnt have to worry about all that other stuff.

*EDIT*

Here ya go. Mount one side (RED) near other side (GREEN) so when the head (?) rotates away, it opens the circuit.

http://loweredd.com/OddsAndEndsPictures/pedalassem.jpg

I'm thinking about all of this using the magnet switches linked to earlier......normally closed contacts.

http://www.audio-discounters.com/8601.html