New BWT Gripe

[SoulScreme]

So, I can live with the fan cap, but this pissed me off. So, me and my roommate are totally jamming and rocking out, ignoring the fan cap, and just letting me play drums on medium a bit longer until I can handle more songs on hard. We're running around to gigs, we unlock a cool stadium gig. We go to play it and it won't let me play on medium. What the hell. So we back out, find a cool gig at a smaller venue, this one is also for some reason not allowing me to play on medium. The fan cap is in place for balance on the leaderboards, what the hell is this for? It seems in place only to piss me off.

[KeithSkins]

So, back in 87, I was playing Duck Hunt, having a grand olde time, and suddenly, I got to a new level where all these ducks filled the screen and I wasn't good enough to shoot them all.

What the hell? It's like the game got progressively more difficult just to piss me off. I hate it when that happens!

Instead of working to advance in the game, I just stopped playing, and took up playing tick-tack-toe instead. I almost never lose and am a better person for it.


;)

[Eman311]

So, back in 87, I was playing Duck Hunt, having a grand olde time, and suddenly, I got to a new level where all these ducks filled the screen and I wasn't good enough to shoot them all.

What the hell? It's like the game got progressively more difficult just to piss me off. I hate it when that happens!

Instead of working to advance in the game, I just stopped playing, and took up playing tick-tack-toe instead. I almost never lose and am a better person for it.


;)

lol good one.

certain venues won't allow lower difficulties. suck it up, and start playing hard, or go play some more medium at the other venues that do allow it.

[DesiredFX]

You can still play those songs on Medium, just not at those venues.

[SoulScreme]

Ok, both of those responses are ridiculous. No other game I've ever played has allowed me to get to Level X and then told me Level X could on be played on hard mode. It's like getting to the final boss on an Easy run in God of War and being told you have to fight him on Hard. It makes no sense. I just want to play the whole game on Medium for now, then go back and play on Hard. There is no sucking it up, I need more experience on medium before I can do hard without failing out. Jeez. It's just annoying to not be able to play the whole game as one difficulty and then go back to it again in a higher difficulty, you know, like how games have worked since... well... since difficulties have existed.

[Eman311]

Ok, both of those responses are ridiculous. No other game I've ever played has allowed me to get to Level X and then told me Level X could on be played on hard mode. It's like getting to the final boss on an Easy run in God of War and being told you have to fight him on Hard. It makes no sense. I just want to play the whole game on Medium for now, then go back and play on Hard. There is no sucking it up, I need more experience on medium before I can do hard without failing out. Jeez. It's just annoying to not be able to play the whole game as one difficulty and then go back to it again in a higher difficulty, you know, like how games have worked since... well... since difficulties have existed.

Because lots of games like Rock Band(and specifically BWT) have come out previously?

[SoulScreme]

Look, I bought Rock Band because it was supposed to be more casual. After 2 days in band world tour I can no longer really advance. I am locked out of venues and can't get more points(fans). It's just stupid and not how the game was advertised. It should take me weeks to get to a point where I can't do anything interesting on medium, and by then I'd be ready for hard. But 1 week of practice and 2 days of BWT? That's ******ed.

[SoulScreme]

Because lots of games like Rock Band(and specifically BWT) have come out previously?

Actually they have, they were called Guitar Hero, Dance Dance Revolution, Amplitude, etc. They never FORCED you to go up in difficulty. You got to do it on your own time frame.

[Eman311]

Because lots of games like Rock Band(and specifically BWT) have come out previously?


Actually they have, they were called Guitar Hero, Dance Dance Revolution, Amplitude, etc. They never FORCED you to go up in difficulty. You got to do it on your own time frame.

you're not forced to go up in difficulty in quickplay. go there.

[SmokaCola]

I think the only option ever taken away is "easy". Really man if you can't play on medium, just give up already. Easy and medium really aren't that much different.

[espher]

You're not forced to go up in difficulty on BWT, either.

You're required to go up if you want to accomplish certain objectives, some of which do involve 'beating the game'. :p

I've been doing easy guitar/medium drums with my roommate the last few nights. We've never been unable to play the mode. :o

[SoulScreme]

This is like talking to a mentally challenged fella. Just because you can play hard/expert and it doesn't effect you doesn't mean it's fun for the rest of us. You remember fun right? It's why most of us play games. Ugh, I am sick of this elitist mentality. All I want to do is have fun and not be told every 10 seconds by the game that I suck to much to do anything new. Why shouldn't I be able to just stay on medium and complete the game?

[Eman311]

I think the only option ever taken away is "easy". Really man if you can't play on medium, just give up already. Easy and medium really aren't that much different.

He is on medium

[SoulScreme]

I think the only option ever taken away is "easy". Really man if you can't play on medium, just give up already. Easy and medium really aren't that much different.

Nope, I'm now having Medium taken away and being forced up to hard. Which is even better when it only happens on song like Foreplay/Long Time and Enter Sandman...

[DesiredFX]

I discovered both the Fan Cap and the limit on difficulty levels within the first six hours we were playing the game. It didn't bother me then and it doesn't bother me now: BWT is meant to be the central challenge of the game.

Since my guitar broke, a friend and I started a band with me singing and him playing drums. We decided from the outset that our rule would be "nothing lower than Medium," and it worked out pretty well--I wasn't allowed to step down my vocals simply because I didn't know a song, and he was forced to make the effort to take his drumming to a higher level.

But we knew going in that that's the way it was going to be. We've each taken some time separately to learn some songs and/or practice them at higher levels, and we're getting a really great experience out of BWT because of it.

Unlike Guitar Hero, where the experience was simply to beat every song you could as quickly as you could, then bang your head repeatedly against the ones you couldn't.

[Eman311]

This is like talking to a mentally challenged fella. Just because you can play hard/expert and it doesn't effect you doesn't mean it's fun for the rest of us. You remember fun right? It's why most of us play games. Ugh, I am sick of this elitist mentality. All I want to do is have fun and not be told every 10 seconds by the game that I suck to much to do anything new. Why shouldn't I be able to just stay on medium and complete the game?

You can complete it on medium, which is getting to the hall of fame and unlocking the endless setlits. It's like having certain rewards being locked off for you because of the difficulty you play.

Kinda like unlocking some special armor for beating a game on hard, you don't get the Tokyo venue until you beat a few songs on hard.(Does that not make sense to you?

I'm not being elitest. There is no reason you still can't move forward with the game. Accept the fact certain places and sets will be locked off until you move up.

[King_Nuthin]

I'm thinking this also may have something to do with why there are saves.

[SoulScreme]

I discovered both the Fan Cap and the limit on difficulty levels within the first six hours we were playing the game. It didn't bother me then and it doesn't bother me now: BWT is meant to be the central challenge of the game.

Since my guitar broke, a friend and I started a band with me singing and him playing drums. We decided from the outset that our rule would be "nothing lower than Medium," and it worked out pretty well--I wasn't allowed to step down my vocals simply because I didn't know a song, and he was forced to make the effort to take his drumming to a higher level.

But we knew going in that that's the way it was going to be. We've each taken some time separately to learn some songs and/or practice them at higher levels, and we're getting a really great experience out of BWT because of it.

Unlike Guitar Hero, where the experience was simply to beat every song you could as quickly as you could, then bang your head repeatedly against the ones you couldn't.

Good for you, the problem is that the way the game was explained was that BWT was career for a band. It seemed like solo career and solo practices wouldn't be needed. This appealed to me because my roommate and I are always competing for time with the TV and games. So I figured this would be the **** because we could play together. Yet, I'm no holding him back because he is awesome on guitar and can do hard/expert. So, now you're telling me that our promise of a co-op game is actually going to require us to go and play solo a bunch to come back to BWT? BWT IS the central focus of the game. In my opinion is designed poorly. It's designed to most enjoyable for Hard/Expert and plays like crap on Easy/Medium. It's still fun to play, but nowhere near as fun as it could be.

[zDisturbedOnez]

Ok, here is a quick fix that will both aid you in getting fans as well as making you a better player at the same time. I have been playing Guitar Hero for quite a while and had Rockband since the day it came out. My partner on the otherhand (my stepson), has only been playing for a week. We took the game as far was we could on medium, then we chose to pick shows that allows you to pick your own setlist. Choose 2, sometimes 3 or more songs from the first 2 tiers and play them on hard. Thus you unlock all the things you feel you must have in order to live and you get better in the process. We did that and then did the same once we capped out on hard and moved up to expert. My stepson has gotten a lot better and is playing expert now on the bass and we can get through just about any song with practice. Currently we have almost 4million in fans and have managed to climb into the top 150 on the leaderboards. Not bad for having a partner that has only been playing for a little over a week.

[Eman311]

I'm thinking this also may have something to do with why there are saves.

without saves, i'd only be a serviceable drummer on medium. I just started playing the drums on the 20th, i mean I straight up sucked at first.

With saves, my full band can now get through nearly every song on expert.and because of it, i've gotten a TON better than when I first got forced up to expert.

so i would say me and Disturbed One are in a similar situation.

[SoulScreme]

You can complete it on medium, which is getting to the hall of fame and unlocking the endless setlits. It's like having certain rewards being locked off for you because of the difficulty you play.

Kinda like unlocking some special armor for beating a game on hard, you don't get the Tokyo venue until you beat a few songs on hard.(Does that not make sense to you?

I'm not being elitest. There is no reason you still can't move forward with the game. Accept the fact certain places and sets will be locked off until you move up.

No, unlocking armor would be getting special instruments or clothes for doing it on high levels. Which would be fine. Saying "Hey go play this level you unlocked, but on a higher difficulty than you're comfortable with some of the hardest songs in the game." is not the same. It's like I said, playing something like God of War and getting to the battle with the Cyclops only to be told that he can ONLY be fought on Hard. It's not analogous to unlocking a costume. It's far more intrusive and insulting.

[HellishFiend]

I'm thinking this also may have something to do with why there are saves.

Good point. If I remember correctly, you can bring someone up from near failing (blinking red) to full green with a properly timed overdrive activation. That combined with the three strikes rule should help players get through difficulties that are sort of beyond their skill level. I have to admit though its depressing for a bandmate to be blowing it on a song you like.

[DesiredFX]

So, now you're telling me that our promise of a co-op game is actually going to require us to go and play solo a bunch to come back to BWT?

No, you can go to Band Quickplay and play the songs together on levels that are comfortable to you, or you can take the same song to a different venue and play on levels that are comfortable for you.

As the other poster says, it's possible to get to the Hall of Fame and Endless Setlist without having to go up to Hard. It's just not possible to play at certain venues.

[Eman311]

Good point. If I remember correctly, you can bring someone up from near failing (blinking red) to full green with a properly timed overdrive activation. That combined with the three strikes rule should help players get through difficulties that are sort of beyond their skill level. I have to admit though its depressing for a bandmate to be blowing it on a song you like.
well when you are forced to go beyond your skill level, people need to realize they probably won't be 5 starring anything or getting above 90% right off the bat. But with playing through the mode a bunch more and playing some songs a few times things start to get a lot easier.

[DesiredFX]

No, unlocking armor would be getting special instruments or clothes for doing it on high levels.

The problem with the "Special Instruments" argument is that the game is always going to come down to your skill. There is no "magic guitar" that will pretend you played like Lemmy for the next 30 seconds of a song.

At least, not until they create it for the next ridiculous incarnation of Guitar Hero.

[SoulScreme]

The problem with the "Special Instruments" argument is that the game is always going to come down to your skill. There is no "magic guitar" that will pretend you played like Lemmy for the next 30 seconds of a song.

At least, not until they create it for the next ridiculous incarnation of Guitar Hero.

I meant stuff like in guitar hero where it's super cool, not has special abilities. Crazy gutiar designs. Like a guitar made of diamond or some crap, who knows.

[zDisturbedOnez]

Wow I remember when I was forced to stop hitting the ball off the tee and get used to it being thrown at me. Scarred me for life I tell ya!

[DesiredFX]

Well, I don't know what to tell you...obviously, it bothers you that the level of challenge in the game works differently from the way it has in past guitar-oriented games.

But...it just does. And when I finally beat the damn thing (along with my band mates), I'll actually feel like I overcame a significant challenge.

Though deep in the pit of my stomach, I'll still have that dirty feeling that comes from realizing the significant challenge was just a video game.

[Senkoy]

One thing that does bug me is you reach the caps so god damn fast. I have no one else to play with so i did the guitar and sing at the same time, but i had to sing on easy and i reached the fan cap after just a couple songs. It was kind of ridiculous. I can do expert on guitar no problem and i'm almost up to expert on drums, but my voice sucks and i know i'll never be able to play on expert. Maybe medium, but that's it. Oh well, if they added a single player tour that would be most good.

[sa_nick]

OP, How is that bad!?

The game is making you have to get better at the drums, rather than coast through on medium. The experiance is much better if u feel like uve actually accomplished something. Like right now u cant do hard, but keep practising and then you will get through it and be like "f*ck yeah! I kick ass!"

[SoulScreme]

OP, How is that bad!?

The game is making you have to get better at the drums, rather than coast through on medium. The experiance is much better if u feel like uve actually accomplished something. Like right now u cant do hard, but keep practising and then you will get through it and be like "f*ck yeah! I kick ass!"

The problem is it's not a natural progression. It's way too fast. I wouldn't mind it if I'd been on med. for a while, but I haven't.

[HellishFiend]

The problem is it's not a natural progression. It's way too fast. I wouldn't mind it if I'd been on med. for a while, but I haven't.

This is true. I dont know about med -> hard but the the easy -> med transition was VERY fast. For most of my family who had to start out on easy, this was pretty rough. I'm not looking forward to having to switch them to hard...

[Maggot_Brain]

You can still play those songs on Medium, just not at those venues.

BUZZZZZZZZZZ KIIILLLLLLLLLL!!!!!

[tbradshaw]

The problem is it's not a natural progression. It's way too fast. I wouldn't mind it if I'd been on med. for a while, but I haven't.

How can the progression be too fast? You set the progression! You can choose any gig all over the planet to do at any time. You can't say that the "progression is too fast" when the only reason you're trying to play at a hard-only venue is you chose it.

[Hanover]

I was just thinking the same thing. Throw away the feather dude, you can fly without it. :)


I think the only option ever taken away is "easy". Really man if
you can't play on medium, just give up already. Easy and medium really aren't that much different.

[Rook_x51]

How can the progression be too fast? You set the progression! You can choose any gig all over the planet to do at any time. You can't say that the "progression is too fast" when the only reason you're trying to play at a hard-only venue is you chose it.

Quoted for truth x 10000

How can there be fast progression in a non-linear game?

[sa_nick]

The problem is it's not a natural progression. It's way too fast. I wouldn't mind it if I'd been on med. for a while, but I haven't.

Quickplay? Solo career?

The reason they make it so fast is for the advanced players. Its better to make it fast and give ppl the opportunity to practice in other modes than draw it out and make everyone sit though a really long time of easy/medium songs.

[Oblong]

A real simple solution to all this debate would have been for HMX to make BWT have 2 options.

Option 1 : Simulation Mode

-Leave everything as is.

Option 2 : Arcade Mode

-Remove the hard cap for fans
-Allow all venues to be unlocked at any difficulty level
-Disable leaderboard scoring
-Disable achievements


Not sure how anyone could find fault with giving those 2 options. In fact, sim/arcade modes are very common options on alot of games.

With arcade mode you now have something for everyone who doesn't want to be "forced" to push themselves at an unnatural pace, allows kids, parents, and grandparents to still enjoy the meat of the game...and does all this without infringing one bit on those who need their bands up atop the leaderboards nor sacrifice their bragging rights on achievements.


With that solution the only thing left that would bug me about BWT Simulation Mode is how a band of 2 people playing guitars on hard are considered for easier advancement and scoring than a full band of 4 people with 3 playing on expert and 1 on medium. Seems to me that this game was meant for 4 players yet for most 4 player bands to advance it requires them to boot their lowest skilled player. Not very party-friendly if you ask me.

[MartyMcFly]

I agree with you anyway SoulScreme. I have the capability of playing on Expert, guitar at least. But some people, like family and friends, can't master Hard mode.

And yes, when certain content in a game isn't available because it requires you to play on a harder difficulty, that's bull****, I'm sorry. I've been faithful, but the fact you can't even do this stuff is ridiculous.

I was pissed about the fancap initially, but obviously it's not going away. But still, the majority of people aren't hardcore and don't plan on doing BWT on Expert. They say Rock Band was going to be a more casual friendly game, but they shaft solo, which is understandable, and focus on BWT, which is the opposite of casual friendly. This is key: You cannot experience all the game has to offer unless you play on Expert.

Soulscreme, you made the perfect example when you said
I've never played a game where I couldn't experience certain content because it required the hardest difficulty. And it's true. This was all just a way to get us to spend hours upon hours upon hours killing ourselves to get better at these "instruments".

You do Expert on any instrument? You have to have the ability to essentially play the real thing. Try FC'ing Green Grass on Guitar, when all your guitar experience is coming from Guitar Hero. Only real guitar players can move their fingers that fast, or someone who spends their life practicing a video game. Same thing with drums, you basically need the talent to play drums. Vocals on Expert, you should be an actual performer in a band, singing the National Anthem or something.

Point is, not all of us are musicians, and when the focused mode of your game has content blocked out because you're not hardcore is not fair. No other game has done it, because it's a stupid idea.

Flame away.

[Maggot_Brain]

I agree with Marty. And, again, not because of my own lack of skill, but rather friends and family who I would like to play with.

[DesiredFX]

The content isn't blocked out any more than a secret dungeon that you have to discover using game skills is "blocked out" in an Action RPG.

The primary content--the songs--are available even if you can't get to all the venues. The cherry on top--the Hall of Fame--is available even if you play every gig on Medium.

[Ultrace]

Actually they have, they were called Guitar Hero, Dance Dance Revolution, Amplitude, etc. They never FORCED you to go up in difficulty. You got to do it on your own time frame.
And how many songs does a person playing Guitar Hero get to access from each setlist on Easy? Four out of five, as I recall. Encores and the last song in each set were blocked off unless you were playing on Medium or higher. That may have changed with GH3, I'm not sure. But there is definitely a precedent for part of the game not being available on lower difficulty. Heck, at least in BWT you can unlock all of the songs on Medium. If you played Easy on GH, you couldn't actually unlock the songs.

[Ultrace]

BUZZZZZZZZZZ KIIILLLLLLLLLL!!!!!
The "buzz" for most people just comes from playing the music, not necessarily from playing the music in, say, Japan.

[elmo0823]

But in GH you were able to go to all the venues in medium in RB you are not able to go to all of the venues on medium b/c of fan caps. There is a difference.

[SoulScreme]

The content isn't blocked out any more than a secret dungeon that you have to discover using game skills is "blocked out" in an Action RPG.

The primary content--the songs--are available even if you can't get to all the venues. The cherry on top--the Hall of Fame--is available even if you play every gig on Medium.

How? You can't play every gig on medium.

[Maggot_Brain]

The "buzz" for most people just comes from playing the music, not necessarily from playing the music in, say, Japan.

Man, I've wanted to play Budokan for a long time!

[Ultrace]

But in GH you were able to go to all the venues in medium in RB you are not able to go to all of the venues on medium b/c of fan caps. There is a difference.
It's different, sure, but it's the same principle. A certain difficulty is required to access all of the game's content. On GH, that difficulty was Easy, and the content was the songs--even more valuable than the venues (since they advertise the set lists, but not that you can play at a certain venue); in RB, that difficulty is Medium and the content is venues--much less important than the music itself.

[Maggot_Brain]

But in GH you were able to go to all the venues in medium in RB you are not able to go to all of the venues on medium b/c of fan caps. There is a difference.

IG-zactly. You could finish the entire game on any level you wanted! Imagine if GH had required you to play the last couple of tiers on expert to finish it! Impossible for most people.

[DesiredFX]

How? You can't play every gig on medium.

I probably shorcut my actual meaning out of that post.

What I was trying to say was that you can get through the whole game on Medium by playing all the venues that allow you to play on Medium.

But I'm pretty much done here. I've reached an accord on this point having to do with the concept of Arcade BWT as proposed earlier. Keep BWT the same and add a mode that's more family- or party-oriented than achievement-oriented.

[Ultrace]

IG-zactly. You could finish the entire game on any level you wanted! Imagine if GH had required you to play the last couple of tiers on expert to finish it! Impossible for most people.
While you're technically correct, the spirit of your post is off.

Guitar Hero allowed you to finish the game on any difficulty, sure, but you didn't beat all of the songs. 20% of them weren't even available to you on Easy. Sure, you could go all the way to Stonehenge on Easy in GH2, but along the way you couldn't play Carry on My Wayward Son, War Pigs, Sweet Child o' Mine, YYZ and several other cool songs. I'll be honest say that I'm in the "Who Cares" camp when it comes to venues versus songs.

You can "beat" RB BWT mode on Medium. You can get into the Hall of Fame and access the Endless Setlist. You do not need Hard for this.

So, in essence, you can "beat" both games on Medium. Is there content not available to you on Medium in RB? Sure, but that content is not the most important part of the game--the music.

Last post from me clarifying this point.

[DesiredFX]

IG-zactly. You could finish the entire game on any level you wanted! Imagine if GH had required you to play the last couple of tiers on expert to finish it! Impossible for most people.

But technically, you weren't finishing the "entire game" because it dropped one song from each tier on Easy, which meant if you only played Easy, you'd never get to play those songs, even in Quickplay.

Something similar has happened in GH3 that I think is MUCH more serious than this BWT issue: there are four encore songs in GH3 that are only available if you're playing in Co-Op Career mode. And since I'm on a PS3 and can only get another guitar controller if I buy another Les Paul, I can't open those songs except by using a cheat that I have to enter every single time I load up the game.

Blocking me from 10% of the song content is a much bigger no-no than keeping me out of a few venues, in my book.

[SoulScreme]

While you're technically correct, the spirit of your post is off.

Guitar Hero allowed you to finish the game on any difficulty, sure, but you didn't beat all of the songs. 20% of them weren't even available to you on Easy. Sure, you could go all the way to Stonehenge on Easy in GH2, but along the way you couldn't play Carry on My Wayward Son, War Pigs, Sweet Child o' Mine, YYZ and several other cool songs. I'll be honest say that I'm in the "Who Cares" camp when it comes to venues versus songs.

You can "beat" RB BWT mode on Medium. You can get into the Hall of Fame and access the Endless Setlist. You do not need Hard for this.

So, in essence, you can "beat" both games on Medium. Is there content not available to you on Medium in RB? Sure, but that content is not the most important part of the game--the music.

Last post from me clarifying this point.

The proble is that BWT is jsut ANTOHER layer of this. You can get all the songs on Easy AND you can't get all the venues on Easy or Medium.

[MartyMcFly]

The proble is that BWT is jsut ANTOHER layer of this. You can get all the songs on Easy AND you can't get all the venues on Easy or Medium.

Exactly, other music games required at least one step up. That's perfectly fine. Think of it this way as Easy and Normal (meaning Medium) mode. You can't unlock everything if you play on Easy, but you can on Normal.

But I'm not allowed to play in the Huge Stadium Arena Venue because I don't play on Expert? WTF? <----------That is my point right there.

Thus, in order to experience everything the game has to offer you MUST play on Expert. You can't experience everything even on the NORMAL mode.

This game is aimed towards musicians and pathetically hardcore rhythm gamers. I can play Expert, but I'm not going to tell my brother who comes up every weekend that HE has to play on Expert so we can experience everything a stupid co-op career has to offer. It is that mode that is the main focus of the game.

[SoulScreme]

I would be happy with either allowing all difficulties in all venues or getting rid of the fan cap. But with both in place, you just hit this brick wall of "You better learn to play all the songs on hard very quickly or just keep repeating the same venues and not advancing at all."

See, the fans and venues are the carrot. Right now I'm being whooped on with the stick.

[tbradshaw]

This game is aimed towards musicians and pathetically hardcore rhythm gamers. I can play Expert, but I'm not going to tell my brother who comes up every weekend that HE has to play on Expert so we can experience everything a stupid co-op career has to offer. It is that mode that is the main focus of the game.

Talk about blowing something out of proportion. Just because a handful of venues require higher difficulty doesn't make the game "aimed towards musicians and pathetically hardcore rhythm gamers".

For God's sake, there are over forty venues. You can play every single venue in Quick Play. Why is it so damned insulting that in the incredibly in-depth cooperative campaign they used a couple venues as rewards for playing on harder difficulties.

All of the comparisons to GH are moot. There were 8 venues in GH. There are over forty now. For that matter, the life span of the game is intended to be several years. I, for one, am very happy that there are parts of the game that I'll still be experiencing for the first time months or years after heavy gameplay.

[MartyMcFly]

All these venues available in quickplay? Ok, let me select them then :D That's a whole other topic. Like I said in an earlier post, agreeing to someone else, there has never been a game requiring someone to play on the hardest difficulty just to experience everything it has to offer.

I understand rewarding people, but don't cut out the experience of being able to play a certain venue, in the mode that the game is based on, just because I am talently handicapped.

The lifespan of the game will live on, only because people will be "learning to play the instruments" just so they can experience content that wasn't available to them before.

So I'm going to play this game for years to come, not because new content or gameplay is available, but because I have to train myself to get better at it? What could I be doing instead that would take the same amount of time? Practice real guitar, or drums, or vocal lessons, etc. Thus = musicians.

[SoulScreme]

Talk about blowing something out of proportion. Just because a handful of venues require higher difficulty doesn't make the game "aimed towards musicians and pathetically hardcore rhythm gamers".

For God's sake, there are over forty venues. You can play every single venue in Quick Play. Why is it so damned insulting that in the incredibly in-depth cooperative campaign they used a couple venues as rewards for playing on harder difficulties.

All of the comparisons to GH are moot. There were 8 venues in GH. There are over forty now. For that matter, the life span of the game is intended to be several years. I, for one, am very happy that there are parts of the game that I'll still be experiencing for the first time months or years after heavy gameplay.

No crap, don't you work for HMX?

[MartyMcFly]

No crap, don't you work for HMX?

No, he's just a mod, so he sucks up, no offense TBradshaw :D

[DesiredFX]

Like I said in an earlier post, agreeing to someone else, there has never been a game requiring someone to play on the hardest difficulty just to experience everything it has to offer.

Then you haven't played that many games. Even relatively easy games like the Final Fantasy series are going to require you to max up your characters in order to go after the big optional bosses that not everyone chooses to play.

[MartyMcFly]

You can't compare a game that doesn't have difficulty levels to Rock Band. I'm talking about games that you turn on, and it says "Would you like to play on Easy, Normal, Hard, or Insane?"

No matter what difficulty, you'd still experience all the same content. (Usually except for Easy, but there's a reason why it's called Easy, therefore you shouldn't get same rewards)

RPG's is about level progression, that's not a good analogy for rhythm games.

[Eagoyle]

No matter what difficulty, you'd still experience all the same content. (Usually except for Easy, but there's a reason why it's called Easy, therefore you shouldn't get same rewards).

So you are saying that the really bad, or possibly physically handicapped, people shouldn't be allowed to get everything. However, the sort of bad, and not willing to put in a little time and effort to improve people, should get everything.

Sounds like a double standard. Either eliminate all restrictions based on level, or don't. You can't just push it to the level right below you. This shows that the problem you have isn't that there is a restriction based on level.

[DesiredFX]

You can't compare a game that doesn't have difficulty levels to Rock Band. I'm talking about games that you turn on, and it says "Would you like to play on Easy, Normal, Hard, or Insane?"

Sure you can. No matter what the genre, most games are exactly as difficult as you want them to be.

In RB, if you can't play Hard, play Medium, recognizing that this will limit you somewhat in what you can achieve while still letting you play every song in the game. That's your choice, not the games. The game lays out the rules, but you still choose how to play it.

[polishdog90]

Quickplay works pretty well.

[MartyMcFly]

There's Easy mode, and everything else. I'd like it to have everything available on any mode, sure! But that's completely unrealistic. Using GH as an example, you were only required to step it up to Medium to unlock everything.

But now, in BWT, for me and my band to have fun playing in a stadium, to see our band with our logo behind us, the feeling of what it's like to have a sold out show, to be rewarded with thousands more fans, it now says, "Sorry, some content requires you to play on Expert" <----that's the problem.

[Kylekillgannon]

I love this arguement, and how it really shows how people really are, deviding people who want fun, from elitists.....

[DesiredFX]

I love this arguement, and how it really shows how people really are, deviding people who want fun, from elitists.....

Well, feel free to share your lists, then. I'm curious to see where you'd place me.

[Kylekillgannon]

Well, feel free to share your lists, then. I'm curious to see where you'd place me.

I'd catagorize you with the people who've got alot of things backwords, there aren't many games that almost flat out tell you that "You can't enjoy this until you're at this level" an example in of your one posts where you compared this game to an RPG like Final Fantasy was just flat out ridiculous.

I personally am at Expert I can play this game with optimal enjoyment, if I had friends who had the coordination to play drums, or were good enough to play bass above hard.

[DesiredFX]

I'd catagorize you with the people who've got alot of things backwords, there aren't many games that almost flat out tell you that "You can't enjoy this until you're at this level" an example in of your one posts where you compared this game to an RPG like Final Fantasy was just flat out ridiculous.

I personally am at Expert I can play this game with optimal enjoyment, if I had friends who had the coordination to play drums, or were good enough to play bass above hard.

Okay, thanks. I was just curious if you'd categorized me a elitist, but apparently I get a category all of my own.

(And the point of the Final Fantasy comparison was that with those games--as with this one and, really, any game--the difficulty you play at is entirely up to you...but the game still gets to decide how you get rewarded for it.)

[tbradshaw]

No, he's just a mod, so he sucks up, no offense TBradshaw :D

Hahaha! No offense taken. I don't suck up, though. If I disagree with Harmonix on something I'd say it, it just doesn't happen often.

[Kylekillgannon]

Okay, thanks. I was just curious if you'd categorized me a elitist, but apparently I get a category all of my own.

(And the point of the Final Fantasy comparison was that with those games--as with this one and, really, any game--the difficulty you play at is entirely up to you...but the game still gets to decide how you get rewarded for it.)

So you're saying you can get better rewards for beating the game at level 10 than at 99?

[Eagoyle]

No, but there is no way to beat Emerald Weapon on FFVII while still level 10. You have to put in a lot of time (most of it boring grinding) to be able to beat him. What is your reward, nothing more than the fact of knowing you beat him. Much like the reward for being able to play in a huge stadium, nothing more than playing in the huge stadium.

[tbradshaw]

RPG's is about level progression, that's not a good analogy for rhythm games.

Ah ha! Here's the catch!

I'm sure you're familiar with hybrid games, or "genre benders". Games that mix elements from various genres. Like how Zelda is mostly Action Adventure with quite a bit of RPG. Or how a racing game with a big career is almost all racing with just a touch of RPG. How Savage is a mix of first person shooter and RTS.

This is what you're missing. The Band World Tour is a genre blending game mode that mixes standard rhythm game fun with RPG elements! It wouldn't be the fun career-esque Rock Band experience if they remove all of the RPG elements.

Each time you give examples of games and comparisons of difficulty, you always state that the RPG elements of Rock Band are out of place because this is a "rhythm party game". Sometime you're going to have to realize that it's both.

Rock Band Quick Play is a party game, Rock Band Solo Tour is a traditional rhythm game, and Rock Band Band World Tour is a hybrid rhythm game/RPG.

[SoulScreme]

Okay, thanks. I was just curious if you'd categorized me a elitist, but apparently I get a category all of my own.

(And the point of the Final Fantasy comparison was that with those games--as with this one and, really, any game--the difficulty you play at is entirely up to you...but the game still gets to decide how you get rewarded for it.)

Desired, I think the point is what you classify as a reward. Typically a reward is something above and beyond what is set out in the game. Venues... those are not rewards. Gigs, ability to gain fans (which are really just points), are not rewards. Typically a game that has difficulty levels works like this:

Playing on lower difficulties lets you accrue points the whole time, play on all levels and experience all of the standard options the game has to offer. Playing on higher difficulties gets you super special things like costumes, cheat options, secret videos, etc.

You see, I wouldn't have a problem with having some crazy clothing option or secret big heads mode for higher difficulties. In fact, if cool, I would totally be trying to play for those. Also, I'd be ramping up my difficulty to try to get more points and get higher on the leaderboards. In my solo career I was pushed to attempt the higher tiers and move to hard so that I could break 1,000 on the leaderboards. These are all things that buying a game I would totally expect to be tied to difficulty. Things like the golden drum kit. However, to lock away what would normally be considered standard content is the issue we have.

[tbradshaw]

But now, in BWT, for me and my band to have fun playing in a stadium, to see our band with our logo behind us, the feeling of what it's like to have a sold out show, to be rewarded with thousands more fans, it now says, "Sorry, some content requires you to play on Expert" <----that's the problem.

That's not true. There are several stadiums available, even to players that are playing on Easy. Also, last night my band "Little Endian" just "finished" the Band World Tour with an epic eight song set of some of the hardest games in Rock Band, in a mega huge arena in Moscow. After finishing the set, we were greeted by additional cheering and crowd pumping, suddenly there were massive fireworks going off everywhere, and finally our virtual avatars took a bow before the crowd. It was amazing. And, importantly, our drummer and vocalist were playing on medium.

[SoulScreme]

Ah ha! Here's the catch!

I'm sure you're familiar with hybrid games, or "genre benders". Games that mix elements from various genres. Like how Zelda is mostly Action Adventure with quite a bit of RPG. Or how a racing game with a big career is almost all racing with just a touch of RPG. How Savage is a mix of first person shooter and RTS.

This is what you're missing. The Band World Tour is a genre blending game mode that mixes standard rhythm game fun with RPG elements! It wouldn't be the fun career-esque Rock Band experience if they remove all of the RPG elements.

Each time you give examples of games and comparisons of difficulty, you always state that the RPG elements of Rock Band are out of place because this is a "rhythm party game". Sometime you're going to have to realize that it's both.

Rock Band Quick Play is a party game, Rock Band Solo Tour is a traditional rhythm game, and Rock Band Band World Tour is a hybrid rhythm game/RPG.

See, this is a logical fallacy. In Final Fantasy, or any other RPG, your level is a result of time put in. Not some innate skill that you may or may not have. The problem here is that some people will never be able to drum on expert no matter how long they play. I am probably one of those folks. While the people who can should have some rewards, this game has TONS of things you can only gain by having innate ability. The point of the game is to PRETEND to be good at drums. It's PRETENDING! I'd love to play on medium and PRETEND I'm awesome.

[DesiredFX]

So you're saying you can get better rewards for beating the game at level 10 than at 99?

No, what I'm saying is that if you want the big rewards, you have to take on the big quests, which--while they have no number or difficulty level assigned to them--are clearly more difficult than walking down the main path of the story quest.

So you choose to play at a higher difficulty (meaning, you can much more easily get killed) and you get better rewards for it.

In the end, though, the main story will be the same, and people who made things more difficult for themselves along the way will end up complaining that the main campaign became too easy.

[Kylekillgannon]

No, but there is no way to beat Emerald Weapon on FFVII while still level 10. You have to put in a lot of time (most of it boring grinding) to be able to beat him. What is your reward, nothing more than the fact of knowing you beat him. Much like the reward for being able to play in a huge stadium, nothing more than playing in the huge stadium.

In other words bragging rights, and yes, you can beat Emerald on very low difficulties, it just takes alot longer and alot more luck, Now the problem is, Rock Band is supposed to be for the general audiance, not for the few thousand that can beat the game in one sitting.

[tbradshaw]

Desired, I think the point is what you classify as a reward. Typically a reward is something above and beyond what is set out in the game. Venues... those are not rewards. Gigs, ability to gain fans (which are really just points), are not rewards.

Actually... yes... these are rewards. Venues have never been rewards before because they have always been a very limited asset. However, now, with over forty venues, they can now be used as rewards!

Also, how can you say with a straight face that something that "[is] really just points" is not a "reward"? A point score in a video game is the oldest and most obvious reward for skillful play that has ever existed in video games! For that matter, "score" is the most numerous type of reward in any kind of gaming created by man! Your score tops out if you play on lower difficulties. Your score continues to increase when you kick it up a notch. These are not atypical design decisions for a video game...

[SoulScreme]

Actually... yes... these are rewards. Venues have never been rewards before because they have always been a very limited asset. However, now, with over forty venues, they can now be used as rewards!

Also, how can you say with a straight face that something that "[is] really just points" is not a "reward"? A point score in a video game is the oldest and most obvious reward for skillful play that has ever existed in video games! For that matter, "score" is the most numerous type of reward in any kind of gaming created by man! Your score tops out if you play on lower difficulties. Your score continues to increase when you kick it up a notch. These are not atypical design decisions for a video game...

I did not say that the points weren't rewards. I said the permission to gain points through in game actions is not a reward. Never before has a game that allows to select difficulty told the player that they could no longer accrue points on that difficulty at an arbitrary point mid-game.

[Atsumi]

The thing is, you're not required to level up to finish the game. Just to gain more fans and open more venues.

If you play on medium you CAN do the Endless Setlist and Hall of Fame because it doesn't limit how many stars you recieve, and that's what really matters.

Sure, on 360 there's an achievement for getting 1,000,000 fans, but look at that as an extra thing you can do if you want. Kind of like replaying a game on a harder difficulty. It can be looked at as a "bonus level" if you wish.

[DesiredFX]

Typically a reward is something above and beyond what is set out in the game. Venues... those are not rewards. Gigs, ability to gain fans (which are really just points), are not rewards.

Okay, now this may sound snarky, but...

...if they're not rewards, why do you care about them? What makes them significant?

[SoulScreme]

Okay, now this may sound snarky, but...

...if they're not rewards, why do you care about them? What makes them significant?

Because they are things that any other game would allow you to experience on Easy, Medium, etc. They should not be only for the elite, they are standard. And being withheld standard content is annoying. Thus I want it.

[tbradshaw]

See, this is a logical fallacy. In Final Fantasy, or any other RPG, your level is a result of time put in. Not some innate skill that you may or may not have. The problem here is that some people will never be able to drum on expert no matter how long they play. I am probably one of those folks. While the people who can should have some rewards, this game has TONS of things you can only gain by having innate ability. The point of the game is to PRETEND to be good at drums. It's PRETENDING! I'd love to play on medium and PRETEND I'm awesome.

This is not a logical fallacy. If it is, which one is it?

And your statement is not true. Some players will never be good enough at any video game to play all of the content, any video game. My girlfriend (while doing pretty good at Rock Band on easy drums and lately on hard bass) just doesn't have the hand eye coordination to be great at First Person Shooters.

Rock Band is not easy enough that anyone can 100% complete the Band World Tour. The problem is that Harmonix has designed a game with specific parameters in mind, and despite you playing the game and understanding the parameters, you are claiming they are wrong because they aren't appropriate for the type of game that Rock Band is.

Well, that's just you projecting your opinions of what Rock Band should be on to what Rock Band is.

[DesiredFX]

Well, that's just you projecting your opinions of what Rock Band should be on to what Rock Band is.

Wow.

I think I can finally shut up now.

I probably won't, but I can.

[SoulScreme]

This is not a logical fallacy. If it is, which one is it?

And your statement is not true. Some players will never be good enough at any video game to play all of the content, any video game. My girlfriend (while doing pretty good at Rock Band on easy drums and lately on hard bass) just doesn't have the hand eye coordination to be great at First Person Shooters.

Rock Band is not easy enough that anyone can 100% complete the Band World Tour. The problem is that Harmonix has designed a game with specific parameters in mind, and despite you playing the game and understanding the parameters, you are claiming they are wrong because they aren't appropriate for the type of game that Rock Band is.

Well, that's just you projecting your opinions of what Rock Band should be on to what Rock Band is.

Ok, so you're GF isn't good at FPS games. However, if she could play Resistance or Halo on Easy would she be told halfway through that the only way to finish the story is the go to Hard?

[SoulScreme]

This is not a logical fallacy. If it is, which one is it?

And your statement is not true. Some players will never be good enough at any video game to play all of the content, any video game. My girlfriend (while doing pretty good at Rock Band on easy drums and lately on hard bass) just doesn't have the hand eye coordination to be great at First Person Shooters.

Rock Band is not easy enough that anyone can 100% complete the Band World Tour. The problem is that Harmonix has designed a game with specific parameters in mind, and despite you playing the game and understanding the parameters, you are claiming they are wrong because they aren't appropriate for the type of game that Rock Band is.

Well, that's just you projecting your opinions of what Rock Band should be on to what Rock Band is.

And yes, this is a forum for us to tell Harmonix what we think. So I am telling them how I, and many others, think BWT should function. Spent $170 dollars on this game, I figured it was acceptable to voice my opinion over the few things that slightly irk me about it.

[DesiredFX]

Ok, so you're GF isn't good at FPS games. However, if she could play Resistance or Halo on Easy would she be told halfway through that the only way to finish the story is the go to Hard?

He just pointed out a few posts ago that you can finish the "story" (of Rock'n'Roll Glory) with players playing on Medium.

You just can't get everything.

[Atsumi]

He just pointed out a few posts ago that you can finish the "story" (of Rock'n'Roll Glory) with players playing on Medium.

You just can't get everything.

Just like in Halo. If you want to get all the skulls in Halo 2/3, you HAVE to get some of them on legendary. It's just how it is. They want challenges in their games.

[SoulScreme]

He just pointed out a few posts ago that you can finish the "story" (of Rock'n'Roll Glory) with players playing on Medium.

You just can't get everything.

No, I can complete a different story about Rock n' Roll mediocrity, about a band that wasn't good enough to play an arena in Rome. That story is pretty crappy.

[tbradshaw]

I did not say that the points weren't rewards.

Umm... yes you did. These are the words that your posted:


Gigs, ability to gain fans (which are really just points), are not rewards.


I said the permission to gain points through in game actions is not a reward. Never before has a game that allows to select difficulty told the player that they could no longer accrue points on that difficulty at an arbitrary point mid-game.

Sure there are. You can max out on experience points all the time in RPGs. The Easy difficulty has always done this on GH games.

[SoulScreme]

Just like in Halo. If you want to get all the skulls in Halo 2/3, you HAVE to get some of them on legendary. It's just how it is. They want challenges in their games.

Arenas are not super secret skulls.

[SoulScreme]

Umm... yes you did. These are the words that your posted:





Sure there are. You can max out on experience points all the time in RPGs. The Easy difficulty has always done this on GH games.

Dude, your reading comprehension skills are seriously starting to piss me off. The ability to gain points and the points themselves are two different things. The points are a rewards, the ability to gain them is a game mechanic.

[tbradshaw]

No, I can complete a different story about Rock n' Roll mediocrity, about a band that wasn't good enough to play an arena in Rome. That story is pretty crappy.

You're just wrong. When we finished our Hall of Fame induction in Moscow (never being good enough to play in Rome), nothing about it was mediocre. It was awesome.

[SoulScreme]

Umm... yes you did. These are the words that your posted:





Sure there are. You can max out on experience points all the time in RPGs. The Easy difficulty has always done this on GH games.

Uh, no, you can always go back and replay songs to try to get more points. It never tells you in GH that you can't break 1mil in easy.

[Eastwood]

I like the difficulty cap. It forced my drummer to either get better or allow me and my bassist to move on without him. I didn't let him go back to medium. Now he rocks those drums! He actually thanked me for not letting him quit trying on hard.

[DesiredFX]

No, I can complete a different story about Rock n' Roll mediocrity, about a band that wasn't good enough to play an arena in Rome. That story is pretty crappy.

He just told you they played an eight-song set of difficult songs in front of a huge crowd in Moscow.

The thing about this game is, even if you play it perfectly, not everyone's game is going to end in the same place or exactly the same way, but it sure sounds like it's going to be a satisfying ending, no matter what.

I've got two bands going, myself, and I'm hampered a bit by the fact that my replacement guitar is still in transit, but I have every intention--one way or another--of getting one if not both of those bands to the ending, whatever it is.

And what will probably keep me coming back to the game (apart from fresh DLC on a weekly basis) is that I can switch up instruments, play BWT again and end up with a different ending.

[tbradshaw]

Dude, your reading comprehension skills are seriously starting to piss me off. The ability to gain points and the points themselves are two different things. The points are a rewards, the ability to gain them is a game mechanic.

No, you're pissing yourself off because your limiting your understanding of video game design by sticking to simplistic and predisposed opinions on games. The primary "point" system in RPGs are Experience Points. All of the time, "mid game" you can hit the ceiling on experience points and stop gaining experience points.

This exactly parallels the fan example and effectively refutes your statement that there has never been a game that has this behavior.

[SoulScreme]

No, you're pissing yourself off because your limiting your understanding of video game design by sticking to simplistic and predisposed opinions on games. The primary "point" system in RPGs are Experience Points. All of the time, "mid game" you can hit the ceiling on experience points and stop gaining experience points.

This exactly parallels the fan example and effectively refutes your statement that there has never been a game that has this behavior.

Bradshaw, please. Calm down. Read everything I've posted and attempt to put it all together. I said, that RPGs are not a good example because they are solely based on time played and not innate skill. There is a large difference. Given enough time, anybody can level up in an RPG. The same is not true for drumming in Rock Band. Please attempt to use games that at least have a similar play style and difficulty system, other wise the comparison is apples and oranges.

[DesiredFX]

Bradshaw, please. Calm down. Read everything I've posted and attempt to put it all together. I said, that RPGs are not a good example because they are solely based on time played and not innate skill. There is a large difference. Given enough time, anybody can level up in an RPG. The same is not true for drumming in Rock Band. Please attempt to use games that at least have a similar play style and difficulty system, other wise the comparison is apples and oranges.

But then, what else is there to compare it to? No other game that isn't an Orange to Rock Band's Apple has attempted something as global and epic as the BWT. The closest you can come is an RPG campaign or at least a game with RPG elements that tells a story, which none of the Guitar Hero games attempted to do (unless you count that slapped-on "story" that GH3 included). And Harmonix' previous games, Amplitude and Frequency, took place entirely in abstract worlds.

BWT is unique and has been structured to be played in many ways that are enjoyable as long as you don't see every challenge as a brick wall that's meant to keep you from having fun.

[dlisapussy]

SoulScreme,
Do you understand what you're doing here?

You are being stubborn. You play medium, that's it and that's all. Are you afraid of going up a difficulty? If so, why? Don't say to me that Hard will kick your ass and you'll fail instantly. Maybe you will fail right away, but if you try it again and again, you'll eventually get the hang of it.

What I'm saying is this. They aren't limiting medium players from big venues/shows. They are urging you to take it to the next level. They want you to become better at drumming. Look at it as an opportunity because that's exactly what it is. It's practically slapping you in the face.

[tbradshaw]

Uh, no, you can always go back and replay songs to try to get more points. It never tells you in GH that you can't break 1mil in easy.

But it is the truth. For instance, take the song Surrender in GH2 for the 360.

On Easy, there are 280 notes for Surrender and the #1 score on Score Hero is 88,678 by cg130. It's worth noting that the top 50 scores are all "full combo" scores, never missing a note or hitting an extra, with only differences in star power usage. It's unlikely that any significantly larger score is mathematically possible. (First and second are only 12 points apart!)

On Expert, there are 834 notes for Surrender and the #1 score on Score Hero is 316,196 by beberle2. It's worth noting again that the top 50 scores are all "full combo" scores, never missing a note or hitting an extra, with only differences in star power usage.

Is it not yet abundantly clear that there is a cap to the amount of points mathematically possible in Easy and Expert is almost an order of magnatude different?

Fans are the scoring system for Band World Tour and just like almost every other game, the maximum possible score for BWT is higher when played with higher difficulties.

[SoulScreme]

Here is a summary of the problem.

My band is playing through BWT. We are ramping up the difficulty as we go along, the songs are getting harder. But we're playing on medium drums and hard guitar. At some point, we finish a killer set of some really hard songs on medium/hard. We feel we've really accomplished something. Suddenly the game smacks us in the face telling us we can no longer get fans. We suck it up. It also tells us we unlocked an arena in Rome. So we think, cool, no more fans, but the arena in Rome should be fun. We go to the arena. We can't play anything below hard. Slapped in the face AGAIN! The problem is that we didn't even get through all the songs on medium before being told to play better. We were just getting comfortable with tier 6 of 9 and it wants us to move up already? We were getting better, just not at the break neck pace the game wants. It's an issue of pacing.

[SoulScreme]

But it is the truth. For instance, take the song Surrender in GH2 for the 360.

On Easy, there are 280 notes for Surrender and the #1 score on Score Hero is 88,678 by cg130. It's worth noting that the top 50 scores are all "full combo" scores, never missing a note or hitting an extra, with only differences in star power usage. It's unlikely that any significantly larger score is mathematically possible. (First and second are only 12 points apart!)

On Expert, there are 834 notes for Surrender and the #1 score on Score Hero is 316,196 by beberle2. It's worth noting again that the top 50 scores are all "full combo" scores, never missing a note or hitting an extra, with only differences in star power usage.

Is it not yet abundantly clear that there is a cap to the amount of points mathematically possible in Easy and Expert is almost an order of magnatude different?

Fans are the scoring system for Band World Tour and just like almost every other game, the maximum possible score for BWT is higher when played with higher difficulties.

However, the cap is not MATHEMATICAL. It is completely arbitrary and comes far too early.

[Eastwood]

I think they are trying to encourage 100% completion. If you get all the stars on the West Coast and Chicago, you have got to have gotten bett to the point of playing at the next level.

[tbradshaw]

We were getting better, just not at the break neck pace the game wants. It's an issue of pacing.

I agree, it is an issue of pacing. But you need to realize that you are the one that sets the pace in BWT. Just because something new has been unlocked, does not mean that you have a commandment to play that new thing right now.

Everything you've played so far is still available to replay and improve. Head back to your home down and play songs of lower innate difficulty as you increase your own skill level. Come back to Rome after you've mastered the Hard difficulty and you're ready for the new challenge.

[SoulScreme]

SoulScreme,
Do you understand what you're doing here?

You are being stubborn. You play medium, that's it and that's all. Are you afraid of going up a difficulty? If so, why? Don't say to me that Hard will kick your ass and you'll fail instantly. Maybe you will fail right away, but if you try it again and again, you'll eventually get the hang of it.

What I'm saying is this. They aren't limiting medium players from big venues/shows. They are urging you to take it to the next level. They want you to become better at drumming. Look at it as an opportunity because that's exactly what it is. It's practically slapping you in the face.

I am not being stubborn. I really do want to move up to hard. However, this all happened before I'd even started playing the final 3 tiers in BWT. I get the concept, it's just poorly executed. It comes too quickly. I haven't had nearly enough time to get comfortable enough with medium to move to hard. That is all I'm saying.

[tbradshaw]

However, the cap is not MATHEMATICAL. It is completely arbitrary and comes far too early.

Do you really think that all scoring systems in video games are not completely arbitrary?

[Eagoyle]

Here is the summary of the counter point:

You don't have to play the Rome Arena right now. Play the other ones, get more comfortable with the songs. Try some of the easy ones on hard, then go back to it.

[DesiredFX]

We were getting better, just not at the break neck pace the game wants. It's an issue of pacing.

The game is telling you you need to get better to go further. It's not preventing you from going back, trying an easier song at a higher difficulty and taking both your skill level and your number of fans up a notch.

You keep seeing this as a limit the game is putting on you rather than as a limit you're putting on yourself because of what the game is telling you.

The tiers overlap with the difficulty levels: by the time you're playing the sixth tier on Medium, you're already playing at a level close to what the first tier on Hard would be. In some cases, a sixth tier song on Medium might actually be harder than a first tier song on Hard.

[SoulScreme]

I agree, it is an issue of pacing. But you need to realize that you are the one that sets the pace in BWT. Just because something new has been unlocked, does not mean that you have a commandment to play that new thing right now.

Everything you've played so far is still available to replay and improve. Head back to your home down and play songs of lower innate difficulty as you increase your own skill level. Come back to Rome after you've mastered the Hard difficulty and you're ready for the new challenge.

the issue is that those earlier venues to not have the difficult songs that the later ones do. I was asked to play Enter Sandman on Hard drums when I hadn't yet play it on Medium drums. So, only way to do that is to keep very meticulous track and play every song on medium in the make your own set lists.

[tbradshaw]

the issue is that those earlier venues to not have the difficult songs that the later ones do. I was asked to play Enter Sandman on Hard drums when I hadn't yet play it on Medium drums. So, only way to do that is to keep very meticulous track and play every song on medium in the make your own set lists.

I think this is mostly true. You don't have to keep very meticulous track of things, but if you want to make Hard on Enter Sandman your band's next accomplishment/goal: Heck yeah, go tear it up in custom set list.

[Hanover]

Sorry, rock n roll isn't about being just good enough...it's about being THE BEST. Practice! Rehearse! Get good! Thats what being in a Rock Band is all about.


This is like talking to a mentally challenged fella. Just because you can play hard/expert and it doesn't effect you doesn't mean it's fun for the rest of us. You remember fun right? It's why most of us play games. Ugh, I am sick of this elitist mentality. All I want to do is have fun and not be told every 10 seconds by the game that I suck to much to do anything new. Why shouldn't I be able to just stay on medium and complete the game?

[SoulScreme]

Just because it hasn't bothered or effected you, doesn't mean it's not an issue. Go look around these forums and see TONS of people upset about it. Then go ask the people who don't even play games often enough to come onto the forums how they feel about it (many don't like it in my experience.) The bottom line is if a lot of fans don't like it, it's an issue, whether you want to admit it or not. It seems to me that most of you would classify as "fanboys" who don't want to admit that there might be a small flaw in a game by the grand and mighty Harmonix. The game is wonderful, we're just trying to point out some places that might be able to be improved. Don't take it like we're saying Rock Band sucks, which many of you seem to be taking it as.

[SoulScreme]

Sorry, rock n roll isn't about being just good enough...it's about being THE BEST. Practice! Rehearse! Get good! Thats what being in a Rock Band is all about.

This is pretend, this is a fantasy, this is not real life.

[dlisapussy]

I am not being stubborn. I really do want to move up to hard. However, this all happened before I'd even started playing the final 3 tiers in BWT. I get the concept, it's just poorly executed. It comes too quickly. I haven't had nearly enough time to get comfortable enough with medium to move to hard. That is all I'm saying.



AH HA! I think I found the problem. You said it <I>moves</I> too fast.

Does it sound too fast? Don't be concentrating on hitting notes when it's in the hit area. You have to do that, but you have to listen, too. Your eyes get tired after playing this game, you hardly blink, you look away from the TV and **** seems like it's moving. Sometimes you can't trust on your eyes, they can throw you off at times. Listen to the beat.

And when your not with your friend playing BWT, play solo drums. It's obvious, and I'm sure you've heard this a ton of times but, practice makes perfect.

[SoulScreme]

AH HA! I think I found the problem. You said it <I>moves</I> too fast.

Does it sound too fast? Don't be concentrating on hitting it when it's in the hit area. You have to do that, but you have to listen, too. Your eyes get tired after playing this game, you hardly blink, you look away from the TV and **** seems like it's moving. Sometimes you can't trust on your eyes, they can throw you off at times. Listen to the beat.

And when your not with your friend playing BWT, play solo drums. It's obvious, and I'm sure you've heard this a ton of times but, practice makes perfect.

I was talking about the difficulty increase being required too quickly, not the notes. Please pay attention.

Also, my roommate and I play at the same time all the time. We both love the game, so there is rarely a chance for solo play. We bought this game to play it together.

[Eastwood]

AH HA! I think I found the problem. You said it <I>moves</I> too fast.

Does it sound too fast? Don't be concentrating on hitting it when it's in the hit area. You have to do that, but you have to listen, too. Your eyes get tired after playing this game, you hardly blink, you look away from the TV and **** seems like it's moving. Sometimes you can't trust on your eyes, they can throw you off at times. Listen to the beat.

And when your not with your friend playing BWT, play solo drums. It's obvious, and I'm sure you've heard this a ton of times but, practice makes perfect.

QFT. It is a rythm game, not a reaction game.

[Ultrace]

the issue is that those earlier venues to not have the difficult songs that the later ones do. I was asked to play Enter Sandman on Hard drums when I hadn't yet play it on Medium drums. So, only way to do that is to keep very meticulous track and play every song on medium in the make your own set lists.
My understanding of the BWT--and I have not played it--is that you can play every song on Medium. So, if you continue to pursue the venues that you can play on Medium, you will come across Enter Sandman and be able to play it. Enter Sandman is not only available on Hard. So, continue playing the medium venues until you are unable to do so, and at that point you should have played every song and also hopefully have the practice to move up to Hard. Experienced players who want to immediately step to the proverbial Rome could do so before finishing out the medium setlists...

Someone correct me if I'm wrong with this view.

[tbradshaw]

It seems to me that most of you would classify as "fanboys" who don't want to admit that there might be a small flaw in a game by the grand and mighty Harmonix. The game is wonderful, we're just trying to point out some places that might be able to be improved.

While I can't deny the label of "fanboy", you don't seem to want to admit that there's not a flaw in the game, and instead you are frustrating yourself on the mechanics of the game.

And you do want a change that effects us all, you want to remove the accomplishment of performing at the higher difficulty venues. When I play in Tokyo, I want to earn it. I'll earn it by practicing with my band until we are all on Hard (at least).

[DesiredFX]

Just because it hasn't bothered or effected you, doesn't mean it's not an issue. Go look around these forums and see TONS of people upset about it. Then go ask the people who don't even play games often enough to come onto the forums how they feel about it (many don't like it in my experience.) The bottom line is if a lot of fans don't like it, it's an issue, whether you want to admit it or not. It seems to me that most of you would classify as "fanboys" who don't want to admit that there might be a small flaw in a game by the grand and mighty Harmonix. The game is wonderful, we're just trying to point out some places that might be able to be improved. Don't take it like we're saying Rock Band sucks, which many of you seem to be taking it as.

Hey, I've never once thought you were treating it as "Rock Band sucks," and I've never done anything but speak to you respectfully--and not even that heatedly--in every post I've made.

The point here is that this is the long-term part of the game--you don't just jump in and play it as a novice, which a lot of the people who are frustrated are doing. If you take your time and work your way through it rather than just trying to hack your way to the ending, you're going to have a much fuller experience of the game, including times when the game frustrates the heck out of you.

It's part of the challenge, and it's part of why I keep coming back to play these rhythm games even though I've pretty much hit a plateau in my own skill level.

[NoD]

I thought it was set up to simulate the real band experience. The better player you are the bigger the venue you get to play in. I have not played yet but the concept makes perfect sense. Form a band, play in garage, as you get better you draw more fans which means bigger venues. Makes perfect sense to me, am I way off in that, or is that not how yall are seeing the game is played?

[dlisapussy]

I was talking about the difficulty increase being required too quickly, not the notes. Please pay attention.

Also, my roommate and I play at the same time all the time. We both love the game, so there is rarely a chance for solo play. We bought this game to play it together.

I was paying attention, you never said anything about "it" moving too fast. It meaning the difficulty.


SOLUTION: Play band quickplay, it's like practice mode for BWT.

[SoulScreme]

I thought it was set up to simulate the real band experience. The better player you are the bigger the venue you get to play in. I have not played yet but the concept makes perfect sense. Form a band, play in garage, as you get better you draw more fans which means bigger venues. Makes perfect sense to me, am I way off in that, or is that not how yall are seeing the game is played?

The problem I have is requiring you to increase difficulty in order to go further after only a few hours of playing. Should take a week or two at least to hit the wall.

[tbradshaw]

My understanding of the BWT--and I have not played it--is that you can play every song on Medium. So, if you continue to pursue the venues that you can play on Medium, you will come across Enter Sandman and be able to play it. Enter Sandman is not only available on Hard. So, continue playing the medium venues until you are unable to do so, and at that point you should have played every song and also hopefully have the practice to move up to Hard. Experienced players who want to immediately step to the proverbial Rome could do so before finishing out the medium setlists...

Someone correct me if I'm wrong with this view.

This is mostly true. A few nitpicky differences:

1) Enter Sandman is available for all difficulties, however, it is only available as a single song setlist at a venue that requires Hard difficulty to perform there.

2) Enter Sandman must be completed once in order to be unlocked for all difficulties. Sometimes this means that it must be completed first on a solo tour. If a player were to only play Band World Tour, then Enter Sandman could only be unlocked with a band that the lowest difficulty player is playing on Hard.

3) It's not the proverbial Rome, actually... it's the "real" place. :)

4) There aren't really "medium setlists", per se. Rather, venues have a minimum difficulty associated with them. As an example, the Coliseum in Rome won't allow performers that play on a difficulty lower than Hard (Medium and Easy are just plain disabled on the difficulty selection menu). Therefore, the same songs must be played at a different (probably less illustrious) venue if they are to be played on Medium in Band World Tour.

[tbradshaw]

The problem I have is requiring you to increase difficulty in order to go further after only a few hours of playing. Should take a week or two at least to hit the wall.

Have you really five starred every song in every single gig in every single venue on Medium, and you can't play on hard? I think if you have really exhausted every single setlist and five starred everything, that you can pull some action on Hard.

[Eastwood]

To simulate those mystery setlists, do the band quickplay and always pick random. Sometimes my band will enter a mystery setlist or open mic and have to start out on blackened. A big "oh, f*ck" gets let out by everyone.

[DesiredFX]

The problem I have is requiring you to increase difficulty in order to go further after only a few hours of playing. Should take a week or two at least to hit the wall.

Due respect...how many songs are supposed to be in this game?

You haven't actually hit a wall, when you think about it: if you go back and practice other songs on Hard and get your skill level up and then come back and still can't beat the songs in the Coliseum, THEN you've hit a wall.

[DesiredFX]

To simulate those mystery setlists, do the band quickplay and always pick random. Sometimes my band will enter a mystery setlist or open mic and have to start out on blackened. A big "oh, f*ck" gets let out by everyone.

See, this is why I didn't buy the Metallica DLC...heh heh...

[SoulScreme]

Have you really five starred every song in every single gig in every single venue on Medium, and you can't play on hard? I think if you have really exhausted every single setlist and five starred everything, that you can pull some action on Hard.

Here is the problem. I have. I want to move to hard, but I'd love to move to some bigger venues for that. The way it stands now, the only songs in those bigger venues are ridiculously difficult songs on hard. So, right now I'm back to small crappy clubs playing Say It Ain't so and other 1st/2nd tier songs on hard until I don't suck at them so bad.

[dlisapussy]

Have you really five starred every song in every single gig in every single venue on Medium, and you can't play on hard? I think if you have really exhausted every single setlist and five starred everything, that you can pull some action on Hard.

I 4 starred Say It Ain't So on Medium, and I thought to myself, this must be easy on Expert. Next thing you know, I'm 4 starring Say It Ain't So on Expert.

[SoulScreme]

I 4 starred Say It Ain't So on Medium, and I thought to myself, this must be easy on Expert. Next thing you know, I'm 4 starring Say It Ain't So on Expert.

Either that's a joke or you kick butt on your instrument.

[tbradshaw]

Here is the problem. I have. I want to move to hard, but I'd love to move to some bigger venues for that. The way it stands now, the only songs in those bigger venues are ridiculously difficult songs on hard. So, right now I'm back to small crappy clubs playing Say It Ain't so and other 1st/2nd tier songs on hard until I don't suck at them so bad.

Wow, you have? I must not play this game enough, because I haven't yet five starred everything on medium. I don't think most players have such a challenging transition from Medium to Hard. I don't necessarily think that it's a poor game design that you've had to go back to smaller clubs to practice up a bit, but I can respect that it's what you're doing.

It's rough sometimes to be in big stadiums and then later be in smaller clubs, but I wouldn't let it bother you that much. I'm about to start doing the same thing.

[Eastwood]

I 4 starred Say It Ain't So on Medium, and I thought to myself, this must be easy on Expert. Next thing you know, I'm 4 starring Say It Ain't So on Expert.


say it ain't so, In Bloom, and Gimme Shelter were like that for me on the drums.

And Maps on the guitar... wait...:p

[dlisapussy]

Either that's a joke or you kick butt on your instrument.

No joke.
I used to be a drummer, quit about 4 years ago. I started on Medium, just needed to get my rhythm back. The only reason I 4 starred it on Medium was because I couldn't get used to the pedal. I've been <U>practicing</U> and I play on Hard now, there's a few I play on Expert.

[ZkDotNet]

If I may make a suggestion. Go back to the earlier venues with the easier songs and play on hard. That really is the way to make the progression in skill you're asking for. Say It Ain't So is a good introduction to hard. As are other tier 1-2 songs.

If you want to be able to play at hard, you just have to start doing it. It doesn't matter if you haven't done every song on medium yet. I'm sure you'll be able to make progress if you work your way up.

Or, you can just post complaints about it here... which really isn't very productive.

Edit: Missed posts as I took forever typing that. Guess you don't want to do that. I guess, continue with the complaints then.

[dlisapussy]

If you want to be able to play at hard, you just have to start doing it. It doesn't matter if you haven't done every song on medium yet. I'm sure you'll be able to make progress if you work your way up.

Or, you can just post complaints about it here... which really isn't very productive.

I have to agree that you are completely wasting your time arguing with us right now. This is your time to practice. If you keep playing, you will get better, no doubt in my mind.

I think you should go practice right now.

[SoulScreme]

Wow, you have? I must not play this game enough, because I haven't yet five starred everything on medium. I don't think most players have such a challenging transition from Medium to Hard. I don't necessarily think that it's a poor game design that you've had to go back to smaller clubs to practice up a bit, but I can respect that it's what you're doing.

It's rough sometimes to be in big stadiums and then later be in smaller clubs, but I wouldn't let it bother you that much. I'm about to start doing the same thing.

Yeah, we 5 star almost everything. I haven't 5 starred it all solo, but my guitarist is great. Our band is somewhere around the top 500 for score, and slightly above the cap after I did Say It Ain't So on Hard. The thing that throws me off on hard is the insane kick pedal stuff.

[dlisapussy]

Yeah, we 5 star almost everything. I haven't 5 starred it all solo, but my guitarist is great. Our band is somewhere around the top 500 for score, and slightly above the cap after I did Say It Ain't So on Hard. The thing that throws me off on hard is the insane kick pedal stuff.

Yea that's the trickiest part. I would suggest listening to these songs when your not even playing the game. When you miss things in the game, no sound comes up. When you hear the song you can hear everything. It does make it easier IMO.

[Coldplayer]

I kinda agree with the OP. It's stupid that they force you to change the difficulty to harder. I mean, I know I will play a lot with people who aren't that good, so I can't finish the game (or continue the game) because my friends aren't that good? And they don't even have a lot of time to get better since they don't have the game.

Well, just one question: Can you unlock new songs in Single Player mode or do you unlock them in BWT??

[ZkDotNet]

I kinda agree with the OP. It's stupid that they force you to change the difficulty to harder. I mean, I know I will play a lot with people who aren't that good, so I can't finish the game (or continue the game) because my friends aren't that good? And they don't even have a lot of time to get better since they don't have the game.

Well, just one question: Can you unlock new songs in Single Player mode or do you unlock them in BWT??
You can unlock all the songs in solo. You can beat BWT with medium.

[Maggot_Brain]

Well, that's just you projecting your opinions of what Rock Band should be on to what Rock Band is.

What I'm doing is using my rights as a paying customer to lobby for what I see as important changes/improvements in a product. Sure they can ignore me. Then I'll stop buying DLC, peripherals and certainly not RB2. See how that works? The way I figure it, any company needs happy customers more than I need them.

[Maggot_Brain]

As an example, the Coliseum in Rome won't allow performers that play on a difficulty lower than Hard (Medium and Easy are just plain disabled on the difficulty selection menu).

I haven't got there yet with my family. It's a good thing because that totally sucks. Buzzkill!!