For those with broken drums, not a fix but possibly the cause? [Lots of pictures!]

[Dewgy]

Evening all, first post here. Like many people here, I was having issues where some of my drum pads were not responding to drumrolls or rapid hits, or would occasionally miss hits at random. Especially on the red pad, but it was happening intermittently for all of them.

I was following some advice from another thread that recommended taking off the drumheads to reseat the control cable, and I decided to look just a little bit deeper. What I found, was... unpleasant, to say the least.

In fact, if this is actually the root cause of the issue (as it very well may be) it means there is NO fix for those experiencing the same issue as me that does not void your warranty. The cause from what I can see?

Shoddy wiring.

Allow me to further explain, with pictures!

A brief primer first, the Rock Band drums are controlled by what is known as a piezoelectric sensor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piezoelectric_sensor), or piezo sensor. This is actually very good news, as this is the same kind of sensor used in other electronic drumkits and in other drum games, such as Konami's Drummania arcade series. So the good news is the underlying technology for the Rock Band drums is not some BS hackjob deal, it's a very real and very effective electronic drum solution, which is excellent.

This also means that since the drums are controlled by a piezo sensor, the movement of the drumhead as controlled by the rubber "feet" has nothing to do with the function of the set, only the durability. This is why if you softly but firmly push on the drumhead and press it inwards, it does not register.

Now that we have all that in mind, what on earth is going wrong exactly? Well, let's start by taking things a bit apart.

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a36/Dewgy/RBDrums/DSC00191.jpg

And yoink.

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a36/Dewgy/RBDrums/DSC00192.jpg

Here's the underside of the drum head. You can see the orange bit on top of the piezo, and the wire attached to it.

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a36/Dewgy/RBDrums/DSC00193.jpg

There's the connector for the wire to the kit itself. Nothing seems wrong here, and even after reattaching it I was still getting crappy performance out of my drums. So, moving onward.

[Dewgy]

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a36/Dewgy/RBDrums/DSC00194.jpg
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a36/Dewgy/RBDrums/DSC00195.jpg
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a36/Dewgy/RBDrums/DSC00196.jpg

Mr. Piezo Cover, meet Mr. Screwdriver. This is actually a neat little bit of hardware, having a spring hold the piezo against the plastic of the drumhead is a clever idea, and it should work just fine. So again, moving along.

[Dewgy]

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a36/Dewgy/RBDrums/DSC00197.jpg

Here is the piezo sensor. Bow before its tiny majesty. This is actually the "brain" of the drum pad itself, which is pretty simple in execution. Two wires connected to a vibration sensor, which closes a circuit when you hit the drum. But, let's look a wee bit closer!

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a36/Dewgy/RBDrums/DSC00200.jpg

And here we have the problem. This is the solder joint for one of the wires attached to the piezo. You can see a small blob of silver solder where it's joined which is good, but on the other hand...

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a36/Dewgy/RBDrums/DSC00200focus.jpg

Notice this little black blob right here? That's melted plastic. This wire was not properly stripped before it was soldered to the sensor, and thus the solder joint is, in a word, really crappy. It's not a clean connection, which means any electrical current being generated by the piezo can be discharged into the plastic, and as we all know plastic doesn't handle electricity very well. This may not affect individual drum hits, but it will affect how often the piezo can send a signal back to the drumkit itself, so when you try to do a drumroll, it ain't gonna work right.

Now what bothers me is this is one of the most simple parts about wiring electronics. If this got missed on one drumkit, it's probably being done on every single one that's affected. To me, that spells recall. It sucks, but if this is true about other drumkits as well, it means someone screwed their job up.

So in short, someone making these things is lazy or doesn't know how to wire. And that's just, well, unacceptable. For those who know how to do electronics work, it's not too hard to get another piezo and wire it in yourself; but do I really have to void my warranty to do a job someone else should have done right the first time?

I think not.

Any thoughts?

[Eastwood]

Better than all the "look at teh guitar" threads where they just point at things in a low res picture and have you guess what is wrong. Can you do one for guitar, too?

[Qweets]

are you going to attempt to repair it yourself? if you do let us know how it goes.

[smith5879]

Nice job man. You should send that to EA/Harmonix incase they're too stupid to figure it out (which they probably are).

[sa_nick]

Nice job man. You should send that to EA/Harmonix incase they're too stupid to figure it out (which they probably are).

Or the asian factory the peripherals are mass produced at the lowest cost possible.

[SuperTr00p3r]

I think you officially won the award for the best post on the forums! Hell of a job man....I now feel like I have actually learned something, as opposed to logging off and feeling dumber as usual. :D

[mrloofer]

If you can re-do that solder why would it void your warranty? I doubt you could do a worse job than already done there and would they even know to look there rather than just say yeah dont work here's another?

Great post thou!

[Huskie]

Excellent topic Dewgy.

Have you checked continuity while wiggling the wire at the connection?
By the looks of that picture, I wouldn't be surprised if it's being held in place with one strand of the wire.

Thanks for finding this. If this is truely the cause of the drum pad issues, I know now that I can fix it myself, if needed, when we get the PS2 version ... and after I get a steel plate for the kickpad.

Please keep us up-to-date on if you corrected this connection and found that your's works properly now.

[Coldplayer]

Great post. It would be really awesome if you can make a tutorial explaining how to repair this yourself.

Because if I'm going to have such a problem, I won't get a replacement for my drums. (I'm not living in the US and importing the game)

[mrloofer]

What you could so is put a multimeter tester on each drum head and measure the current in the wire. I guess they should in theory give you the same reading and if the red is off you'll know for sure it's a bad connection. You can pick up a multimeter from Radioshack for $29 then return it later.

[musicman835]

GREAT explanation, only thing is i have been having trouble with the yellow pad. moast likely the same issue however.

[angry_jonny]

Great post, very well done. It makes a lot of sense with four drums per kit, if it's a sloppy wiring job, odds are one of them (or more) is going to be messed up.

Overall, this actually makes me optimistic. This isn't a fundamental design flaw or anything like that. It's just sloppy manufacturing, and that can be fixed. If HMX/EA stands by their products, extends the warranty period, and gets things sorted out on the assembly line (tighter QC, threatens to move to a different manufacturer, etc.), we'll all eventually wind up with good drums.

I really hope HMX/EA is lenient with their "do not open" policy, though, as it's really unfair to expect people not to open their set up and make sure everything is as tight as possible. Taking a soldering iron to it, sure, that's warranty-voiding.

[Schlagwerk]

'Sup Dewgy! ;)

While my model is a little different, I want to confirm that my problem of pads not registering 100% of the time is caused by the same thing.. poor wiring job on the sensor. I think this is a bigger problem then people's wires becoming unplugged (as in my model, the plugs are really well connected, I think glued, so that vibrations don't pop them out).

Sadly, I've already requested replacement drums, so I'm afraid to try any further repairs on my broken kit for fear of getting charged $120 for "voiding my warranty" so that I can actually play the game again.


This topic does mention the #1 thing I'd like to see happen with Rock Band. Not an apology for shoddy controllers, not a good replacement plan, but a full and outright recall.

[jaredstokes]

Awesome post mate!

[Tommy Gun]

Thanks OP, great pics. Please update us on progress!

[cyberdote]

Nice work Dewgy.

My red drum has the fast note issue.

We need to let EA know about this. They probably haven't figured it out yet.

I've ordered replacement drums, but it may be a random shot in the dark that the new ones sent out have been assembled better than the ones I have. I suspect that it will be the same with everyone until they fix the primary cause of the problem.

If this is indeed the root cause, hopefully they will do what is right and re-work the manufacturing process and recall all the bad products.

[TreoRock_]

Wow..!! Accoridng to HMXSean and others they do read this board daily and I hope they are reading this because this is the KEY for getting the drums fixed. Somebody needs to send this to HMX and EA or we need to keep bumping this thread or make it a Stikcy.

Hey Mods! Make this a sticky please!!!

[furbzilla33]

This is exactly what was wrong with my yellow drum pad...It wasn't the same wire that is shown in the picture, though...it was the other one (white, I believe?). I just relocated the wire to a different part of the piezo sensor and duct taped the h*ll out of it. Works better than when when I first got the drums but still not 100% responsive.

This really has to be one of the most r*tarded ways to make this. Does anyone really expect this setup to "hold" over time beating the crap out of a drum? It's cheap, that's for sure...

[Dewgy]

Well personally, I'm a little wary of dealing with resoldering to the included pad, but if I can I may go to Radio Shack and pick up a piezo sensor and one of the connectors if they have them, and try replacing the whole thing.

I don't want my piezo sensor to look like a DIY nightmare if for some other reason I need to return the drums, haha.

[reverser]

Nice job on this. This also leaves avenues for people to design completely custom drum triggers for each of the pads and feed it back into the harness for handling by the controller board. Excellent work!

[Layklant]

Awesome post Dewgy! Thanks a lot!

Does anyone could forward this to EA/ HMX?

PLEASE MAKE THIS THREAD STICKY!

[AVC808]

i think the EA mods view each thread and they probably alerted the powers that be about this (although id suspect this would have been noticed by their engineers long ago).

and i wouldnt expect it to be stickied either since that would really seem as if they support a home fix, which they wont do, since it would void your warranty.

[macafied]

Very cool! *waits patiently for someone to create and manufacture 'silent' drum pads*

[smith5879]

i think the EA mods view each thread and they probably alerted the powers that be about this (although id suspect this would have been noticed by their engineers long ago).

and i wouldnt expect it to be stickied either since that would really seem as if they support a home fix, which they wont do, since it would void your warranty.

Well they're engineers are probably ******ed because they designed the instruments. Hey EA hire me I'm a EE major. I'm only a freshman and can probably do a better job than the people you have.

[Frez]

I think the main thing we can all get out of this threat is that if this many ppl (me included) are having this problem then a Recall definitely needs to happen...because like someone said above...how long do they expect the crappy sodering job to last when the drums are meant to be played on (relentlessly on expert)...EA or whoever needs to do something about it...just like they finally realized their guitar strummer designed was flawed...

[Dewgy]

It's not a DESIGN problem, it's a MANUFACTURING problem. They need to yell at their manufacturers, who I'm guessing are outsourced. The engineers did their job right, these things should be solid as a rock.

EDIT: As well, this is a solid solder joint. It's not that it's not going to last, it's just poorly done to the point where it's going to affect the function of the drums. But man it'll keep on kicking, even if it kicks like a girl.

[AVC808]

Well they're engineers are probably ******ed because they designed the instruments. Hey EA hire me I'm a EE major. I'm only a freshman and can probably do a better job than the people you have.

i think it was a decent design, but the manufacturing was shoddy. of course youd expect corners to be cut to save on costs. that's why it was good discussion to see if people would be willing to pay the original price point of $199 if it avoided all these problems. although i wouldnt be surprised if at $199 they would have went the same route anyway and pocketed the extra profit ;)

[Jinky Williams]

Good job in your research, sir.

The first weekend I got it, I was drumming and couldn't get more of a x3 because of the intermittent misses. Although I play congas a bit, I thought it still might have been an inability to keep time properly. So I bought in my drummer friend, and he played the same song and was likewise unable to get above a x3.

Interestingly enough, he plowed through a couple of Expert songs in training and after that, the drums worked a lot better. I got a 300 streak, one time. However, it is starting to have problems, again. My concern is that it will be just as easy to whang on it hard enough or often enough so that it doesn't work at all as it was to accidentally jostle the connections so that they worked better.

Also, my foot pedal snapped in half, laterally (no, that's not a misspelling of "literally"). But the EA support system went through without a hitch, and I should be getting the new one, today.

So, huzzah for their replacement policy, and a no-huzzah for the questionable craftsmanship displayed by the people they outsourced the production of the instruments to.

[Dewgy]

I think I clinched it. It's definitely the piezo sensor, as I suspected. My Green (cymbal, if you want to call it that) was working fine, so I took the piezo sensor from that and put it in my Red. Now my Red is working just dandy, and the Green can't roll worth a damn.

Faulty piezo sensor wiring is definitely to blame, because the wiring job on the sensor in my Green drum is clean as can be. It may not be 100% perfect, but it rolls just as fast as I need it to in order to further prove the point.

[Theuke]

Good post and great find. Thanks for the legwork.

I'm sure that the guys at EA who decided to contract the manufacturing to a cheap company in China will be shocked - shocked! - to learn that they got cheap hardware back. I'm telling you... just shocking...

[ilikecheetos]

maybe one day people will stop dealing with china. they have very little if any standards. :resources courtesy of my own thought.

[JackBNimble]

maybe one day people will stop dealing with china. they have very little if any standards. :resources courtesy of my own thought.

Hey ,ya get what ya pay for,JUNK-(EA)

[GenericFoster]

How do I disassemble the drums in order to trade out piezos?

*It looks like I have to pull on the pad and push the rubber fittings from the bottom... is that right?

[Kellwolf9E]

Hey, at least we might not get lead poisoning from the drum pads....

Good find. I've already ordered an empty box for my drums since my green pad is registering about every 4th or 5th hit at this point. I was gonna pop the top off this morning to see if it was a connection issue, but it felt like I was gonna snap the damn thing in half taking it off. So, I decided not to risk it.

[Delmonte]

I started a new thread showing an alternative theory as to why the pads misbehave. I'm not saying it isn't a wiring issue, but my sensor wires are also blackened and one pad works fine and one does not.

http://community.rockband.com/vbforum/showthread.php?t=12370

[Dewgy]

I started a new thread showing an alternative theory as to why the pads misbehave. I'm not saying it isn't a wiring issue, but my sensor wires are also blackened and one pad works fine and one does not.

http://community.rockband.com/vbforum/showthread.php?t=12370

Have you tried swapping piezo sensors? At this point I have suspicions that the pads themselves are manufactured in different places, so like Red and Yellow in building A, Green and Blue in building C, or whatever. So if that's the case, whoever is manufacturing specific pads is making a wiring error.

[txg8r]

Dewgy, if you swapped the piezo sensors, and it followed the sensor - then it is likely a defect with the piezo sensor itself, and not the wiring to the sensor.

Since you swapped the sensors, (and I am assuming that you were very careful in making good solder joints) - and the failure follwed the sensor - this points to the sensor itself. Another way to confirm is to now swap them back - if the sensor is defective, it will then cause the red pad to have the issue again

[Dewgy]

Dewgy, if you swapped the piezo sensors, and it followed the sensor - then it is likely a defect with the piezo sensor itself, and not the wiring to the sensor.

Since you swapped the sensors, (and I am assuming that you were very careful in making good solder joints) - and the failure follwed the sensor - this points to the sensor itself. Another way to confirm is to now swap them back - if the sensor is defective, it will then cause the red pad to have the issue again

I didn't do any soldering, my wires are plugjacks. It was just a matter of taking the piezo/wire/plug from the green and swapping it into the red. In any case, defective piezo or defective piezo wiring, it's the same basic cause: Those things need to be investigated and fixed, not the construction of the whole drumkit.

[Delmonte]

Tomorrow I'll try swapping the sensors and see what the results are. It just seems odd that for my 3 sets, it is ALWAYS the red and green drums and not the yellow and blue. I think it could have something to do with the design of the seat of the pads (the two middle seats vs the two end seats are decidedly different construction), not the pads themselves or the sensors/wiring itself. But, the more things I try the closer we all are to some sort of answer. I just know my visual inspection showed nearly identical black colored solder points and obviously poorly stripped wires but one worked fine and the other didn't *shrug*

Has anyone else who has a poor performing pad checked if it performs differently with center, edge, and rim hits? Just seems too much of a coincidence that 3 separate kits I tried behaved the same.

I'll post my results of sensor swapping tomorrow.

[BiffMan]

Tomorrow I'll try swapping the sensors and see what the results are. It just seems odd that for my 3 sets, it is ALWAYS the red and green drums and not the yellow and blue.

I have to agree with the earlier theory that the blue and yellow pads are made in building A or assembly line A and the green and red ones are made in building/assembly line B and the line manager in building B isn't doing a very good job on quality control. To see it that consistent, it either has to be an automated line issue or training issue depending on how automated the line is. Which in China is probably not very.

[Delmonte]

Take the red pad and the yellow pad off and you'll find the frame underneath each is not the same (connection spot for rubber nubs on yellow and blue is a screw tightened socket and red and green merely have molded plastic). I think the sturdiness of the two parts of the frame might have something to do with it. If it didn't, it would be fairly random which pads worked and which didn't. In my (extremely small) sample size of 3 kits, it's always the red and green. Mostly the complaints I've read about with blue and yellow is that they don't function at all (which is probably just an unplugged sensor) whereas green and red seem to have the accuracy issues.

[Dewgy]

Take the red pad and the yellow pad off and you'll find the frame underneath each is not the same (connection spot for rubber nubs on yellow and blue is a screw tightened socket and red and green merely have molded plastic). I think the sturdiness of the two parts of the frame might have something to do with it. If it didn't, it would be fairly random which pads worked and which didn't. In my (extremely small) sample size of 3 kits, it's always the red and green. Mostly the complaints I've read about with blue and yellow is that they don't function at all (which is probably just an unplugged sensor) whereas green and red seem to have the accuracy issues.

True, but I have a perfectly functioning green pad with a clean solder joint. It could be a combination of multiple things, but the wiring SEEMS to be the major culprit.

[Senkoy]

Great find. I hope they fix the issue so i can get a replacement. I'm moving up to expert and it's probably going to get worse.

[sushimooshi]

i rlly hope they fix this in time for the ps2 and canadian realeases

[zerogeo3]

**** Canada:D

[VeryGoodSauce]

What's interesting is that the bottom of my drum pads look nothing like yours...different versions I guess.

[Senor]

Great post, thanks for amazing info. If i get mine and its like this my brother can probably fix it after he see's this.

[Delmonte]

Have you tried swapping piezo sensors? At this point I have suspicions that the pads themselves are manufactured in different places, so like Red and Yellow in building A, Green and Blue in building C, or whatever. So if that's the case, whoever is manufacturing specific pads is making a wiring error.

I swapped the sensors between my yellow (ok) and red (not ok) pads. Upon retesting, the red drum still had issues on rapid center hits and is perfect on rapid rim hits. The yellow drum was still more or less flawless.

So at least in the case of my three kits, it isn't a sensor issue.

[Supergeek]

I would have gladly paid an extra $40 to get my instruments American made at a higher standard without mercury, lead, asbestos, and GHB.

[Layklant]

**** Canada:D

Stay polite kid.

[Blanko]

Great post. In extreme cases I wonder this might also cause the whole kit from connecting to the xbox.

I'm also wondering if you think these sensors could be taped to the bottom of Roland vdrums - and provide accurate enough feedback. Specifically, the mesh-heads. http://www.rolandus.com/products/productdetails.aspx?ObjectId=599

Unlike the lower-end rubber vdrums, the mesh-head drums are built very similar to real drums. The under-side of mesh that you hit is easily accessible. The symbols, on the other hand, are still rubber. But this kind of hardware hack isn't ideal anyway - im just wondering if you think it's worth testing. Or did you have a chance to test the sensors in/affixed to different surfaces?

Ideally, I'm still trying to wrap my head around having the midi signals from the drum module trigger the appropriate buttons on the drum controller.


Sorry for asking everything and saying nothing ;)
David

[ZenZen]

Ideally, I'm still trying to wrap my head around having the midi signals from the drum module trigger the appropriate buttons on the drum controller.



David

Google MIDIHERO, or Midi Solutions R8.

Either will get you where you want to go. There are a few different ways to go ;)

[Blanko]

The MIDIhero route isn't satisfactory because of the 75ms delay it introduces to the mix. Essentially it makes it impossible to play local multiplayer.

I haven't tried the midi-relay method yet. I'm hoping someone that already has one will give it a whirl first.

Otherwise, we're left with hacking the physical hardware of the drums... which I'll do if nothing else surfaces.

Thanks for your input :)
David

[dekfreeze]

The whole wiring thing makes sense. I hope EA sees this thread and decides to further investigate their drum manufacturing process. I know there are lots of problems with the guitars, but it would be nice to see an official statement at least acknowledging the drum problems. Very informative post, thank you.

[Dewgy]

I actually uh, did a trick with some gaff tape earlier today, and it seems to have gotten things all up and running. I think my earlier claim of "It's a combination of things" was pretty spot-on, because my previously not-working drumhead is now working, and the working drumhead is working even better.

I guess there's too much vibration in the red and green drumheads to be used accurately for rolls? Seems like the best solution for that would be for them to simply make the drumheads heavier, so they don't shake around as much. Hell, designing a small circular weight for users to install on their drums would probably do the trick. I may experiment later with some parts from Home Depot, and I still plan on attempting to make myself a piezo sensor.

[Delmonte]

I too ended up going with the tape method (duct tape in my case) yesterday. It isn't 100%, but it took center hits from about 10% accuracy to around 90%. Now if I just come up with a good way to stop the whole set from sliding across the floor I'll be a lot closer.

Personally, I want to see the non-massively-delayed solution for midi outs of a real drum module so that we can make any electronic drum kit work. if you tie the red to snare, the orange to the kick, yellow to both hi hat and hi-tom, blue to ride and low tom, and green to crash and floor tom... it would be perfect.

[cyberdote]

Any chance of getting some pictures of the tape method?

I got some replacement drums today. They do seem better, but they are not perfect and they are less perfect towards the middle of the drum. This is on every drum. My original set was not playing fast notes on the red drum unless I struck the black rim.

I don't think I got the better designed set either, which makes me think they may fail eventually anyways.

Still waiting on my new kick pedal that broke in half.

I have the v-drums with the TD-20. You think the kick will work with rock band? Maybe with the modded cables. I have some modded cables for splitting the head and rim that I use for extra inputs.

The kick pedal that comes with rock band will never last more than a week with the current design.

[Dewgy]

Oh, the tape method is extremely simple.

Step 1: Push in the drumhead so it is closer to the housing.
Step 2: Tape it so it stays that way.

And bam you're done. I suggest using gaff tape, because it holds well and it's black, so it doesn't look too lame.

[kungfool]

FYI, this is the set I had at launch. The 'new' set I got as a replacement is a totally different design...and it works perfectly. See here:

http://community.rockband.com/vbforum/showthread.php?t=13139

[ZenZen]

The MIDIhero route isn't satisfactory because of the 75ms delay it introduces to the mix. Essentially it makes it impossible to play local multiplayer.

I haven't tried the midi-relay method yet. I'm hoping someone that already has one will give it a whirl first.

Otherwise, we're left with hacking the physical hardware of the drums... which I'll do if nothing else surfaces.

Thanks for your input :)
David


Hey Blanko, check your personal messages