A problem in Band World Tour

[Dun1a]

Rock Band is excellent and I love it, but the progression curve on BWT is not well executed for new players. BWT is the "campaign" mode of Rock Band.

This is not another "Remove the Fan Cap" thread.

Common scenario-
You buy Rock Band and have a friend, family member, or significant other join you who isn't very skilled at the game. They will play off and on with you so you will likely do BWT because they want to complete the "story". They may or may not do any of the solo paths because they probably only play the game with you at your home.

It's very reasonable to expect a brand new player to have to do 30-40 songs before moving from easy to medium on guitar or drums. That was the progression path in the campaign for Guitar Hero and I think about what it took me and a friend to go from easy to medium on that game.

In BWT on Easy, the fan cap will be reached after only a few sets (I think we reached ours in 7). Fans are the second "motivator" you see after completing a song (the first being stars).

You quickly begin to see challenges for "more fans, less money" but you are already capped out so it doesn't make any sense to new players.

You see messages from your manager telling you to need more fans to have a world tour, but after completing songs it tells you you need to play at a higher difficulty to get more fans. You start seeing these messages after completing only around 10-15 songs.

Many of the early challenges such as the jet that appear very quickly in the starting and medium venues of new cities are fan capped.

You start accumulating "grey" challenges that have random songs in the setlist. Once the new player manages to progress to a few of the starter songs on medium and raise their fan cap, all of the "grey" challenges are now open and require medium or higher. With the random songs in those setlists, new players to medium difficulty can have far too advanced songs given to them instead of progressively difficult songs. We got "Won't get fooled again" on a new medium level drummer. He failed out very quickly and very frustrated, we got the "fans lost" message on top of it.

The learning curve for new drummers seems to be much steeper than for new guitar players, while many new players can advance vocals from easy to medium within just a few songs. This causes players in a band to advance at different paces and can be frustrating for new players.

The progression curve in Rock Band's "campaign" seems to be better designed for medium level players than for easy. The various setlist challenges pace well as cities are unlocked, and fan cap restrictions are much farther into the game.

[Maggot_Brain]

Yeah, it really needs some fine tuning.

[Comedian]

The random setlists do seem to add a level of gambling to the game that detracts a bit from the band experience. My friends and I often select Hard on random setlists, knowing that if we get one of a set of three or four songs we are pretty much boned. But the odds are good that we won't - and playing really easy songs on Medium is almost worse than failing a hard song on Hard. The problem is the overlap of difficulty between the last songs at one difficulty and the first songs of the next one.

It's not often you'd be in a real band and not know if you were suddenly going to start playing a song you all couldn't perform very well. Though I actually did go see They Might Be Giants on a tour where they would deliberately ask the audience for a song they didn't know and then attempt to play it. The night I was there it was Electric Avenue. After a bit of discussion they pulled of a pretty good cover, though no one in the club seemed to know the lyrics outside of the chorus. 8)

[Dun1a]

I hope they are working on a Wii version and can smooth it out for that console. After raving about the game to my brother, he wants it so he and his son can play on their Wii.

My in-laws played the game with us over the weekend and had fun, but the annoyances were noticeable for beginners. My wife and her parents even tried to do that band name: The Beginners. They goofed up and ended up as "The Begonners" :)


Speaking of band names............ Why can't I name my band "Username Password" ???!!:eek:

"Password" in a band name seems to be content filtered. It told me it wasn't "classy" and couldn't be transmitted to xbox live.

[davidshek]

"Password" in a band name seems to be content filtered. It told me it wasn't "classy" and couldn't be transmitted to xbox live.

Because it contains the letters a.s.s.

I would imagine that's why, anyway.

Which I think is funny, cause I can name at least a dozen local bands in my area that have completely unclassy names...Maybe that's why they haven't made it big yet! :) Nah, it's probably cause they suck...

[Quyrean]

That is a very good summary. I too felt the progression was way to steep for new players, drums espically. I really want to play the entire band world tour on easy. Its so much fun, but Im not ready for medium yet.

[Dun1a]

The random setlists do seem to add a level of gambling to the game that detracts a bit from the band experience. My friends and I often select Hard on random setlists, knowing that if we get one of a set of three or four songs we are pretty much boned. But the odds are good that we won't - and playing really easy songs on Medium is almost worse than failing a hard song on Hard. The problem is the overlap of difficulty between the last songs at one difficulty and the first songs of the next one.

Agreed.

The random setlists are a great idea and I usually like a change up, I just think they should restrict the range a bit, and introduce them to the player later in the game. For new players getting hit with the upper range songs can be an undeserved failure, while higher level players can sometimes get bored with the lowest level stuff.

[tbradshaw]

While I agree that this is not another "remove the cap" thread, this conversation has been discussed in detail in those threads.

[sporkBrigade]

I don't think this game was meant to be played at Easy. Previous games were the same way. There is always a push to get you out of Easy to at least Medium if you truely want to play through the game. Now of course, for the beginner, Easy is a very important step. But it's still just that, a step. Not the whole game.

The fact is this, there is something that happens when you go up in difficulty. One, a feeling of accomplishment. But almost more important then that is the fact that you are 1 step closer to reproducing the music accurately. Guitar Hero was a fantastic example of this. Every step up the difficulty ladder was one step closer to playing every note of the song. It's a very interesting feeling. Everyone I ever knew who stuck with Guitar Hero and learned to play at least Hard always described the feeling as the game getting better, or more fun. Expert is a different beast, but at least getting to Hard was always described to me as a better experience then playing at Medium. You really started to be tricked into thinking you were playing the song.

Another example to describe what I'm talking about is when I get guitarists to play Guitar Hero. They HATE easy. Again, they still have to start there, just to learn the basics. But hitting one note that represents 12 drives them insane. The higher up they move, the more fun they have, just because the feeling becomes more accurate.

Fact is, I think the folks over at HMX have gotten the same impression. They want you to head up the difficulty scale. Not for your ego, and definitely not to punish you. But because the game is better there.

What I'm trying to establish here is a reason to require at least Medium for the vast majority of the content within the BWT. You may be correct, and they botched the speed of the progression. But I disagree that the entire experience should be open to Easy. It just wouldn't be as good of a game.

Of course, this is alway the place to point out that you can play any song in the game on easy on quickmode, and the songs are the real "content" of Rock Band. Quickplay is the true party experience. WBT is a campaign mode. You don't play campaigns at parties.

[Dun1a]

I don't think this game was meant to be played at Easy.
The game was certainly meant to be played on easy to a certain degree. I'm giving feedback on how easy and beginner content has been implemented in the game.


Fact is, I think the folks over at HMX have gotten the same impression. They want you to head up the difficulty scale. Not for your ego, and definitely not to punish you. But because the game is better there.
Of course, but my feedback is that the pacing for new players going up the difficulty scale should be improved for better gameplay.


What I'm trying to establish here is a reason to require at least Medium for the vast majority of the content within the BWT. You may be correct, and they botched the speed of the progression. But I disagree that the entire experience should be open to Easy. It just wouldn't be as good of a game.

Opening up all of the content on easy is not what I posted about. That is from another thread. In fact, I think some parts that are currently open should be restricted further on easy (such as random setlists and challenges). It's a flaw when a player is given a challenge to get more cash in lieu of fans (or vice-versa), when the player cannot accumulate any more fans. The option then is not a real option, and is therefore not a challenge. It's an issue of polishing the gameplay a bit.


Of course, this is alway the place to point out that you can play any song in the game on easy on quickmode, and the songs are the real "content" of Rock Band. Quickplay is the true party experience. WBT is a campaign mode. You don't play campaigns at parties.
Again, the "party" thing is from other threads. People certainly do have friends and family who are new to Rock Band who will play campaigns with them. BWT is designed around having 2-4 people in front of your TV playing that part of the game. In fact, having other players is the first requirement to even start the campaign. The pacing for different instruments should be evened out, and the pacing for newer players can be improved.

I read some of your other posts on those "other" topics as well. I'm really not sure what your point is supposed to be. In some your points you appear to say that beginner progression should be uneven or not fun in order to make a player move to a higher difficulty. You also seem to put forth the idea that BWT should not be played by anyone with differing skill levels when that is designed in and the option is given at the start of every single setlist. I'm not trying to bash, but I can't seem to make any sense of what you are trying to say.

[Dun1a]

While I agree that this is not another "remove the cap" thread, this conversation has been discussed in detail in those threads.

My mistake. Those threads were 60 something pages long and what little I read seemed to be just about removing the fan cap or opening up arenas on easy.

[tbradshaw]

My mistake. Those threads were 60 something pages long and what little I read seemed to be just about removing the fan cap or opening up arenas on easy.

Fair. The long threads are a challenge to wade through sometimes. :)

[beingmused]

I am really mind-boggled at the extent to which people seem to think everything should be available at every difficulty level, since that just doesn't jive with the notion of a "video game".

In video games, one must get good at playing them in order to get to certain points and pass certain challenges. Rock Band enables anyone to play any song on any difficulty level, but it contains numerous advantages and incentives for those who play long enough to get good enough to play on hard and expert. Anyone can achieve those levels of skill if you play enough.

Quickplay exists for a reason - to be able to play the game without the boundaries and restrictions that accompany other modes. If you were to remove those boundaries, then there would be no reward for people who were skilled. Rock Band gives the best of both worlds.

[DesiredFX]

Because it contains the letters a.s.s.

I would imagine that's why, anyway.

Which I think is funny, cause I can name at least a dozen local bands in my area that have completely unclassy names...Maybe that's why they haven't made it big yet! :) Nah, it's probably cause they suck...

We called ours

THE FLAMING DOUCHEBAGS

and it let us.

Of course, we're on the PS3, so that may be why.

[railcs]

In video games, one must get good at playing them in order to get to certain points and pass certain challenges. Rock Band enables anyone to play any song on any difficulty level, but it contains numerous advantages and incentives for those who play long enough to get good enough to play on hard and expert. Anyone can achieve those levels of skill if you play enough.


That is not necessarily true. Some may never have the skills to get beyond easy. Allowing a person to complete the game on easy hurts no one. People like you still get bragging rights. “I beat it on expert .. look at me.”

Case in point…my wife likes to play with me every so often and she would like to see the game through to the end. She has a hard time on easy. (Now that’s because she’s missing 3 fingers due to an accident long ago)

Are you telling me there’s a good reason she should be forced to play beyond easy? Games are to be enjoyed by everyone. This fan cap makes no sense.

[Oblong]

The people that continue to dismiss this (and the related fan cap) issue might just start making macro responses because they "ain't seen nothing yet". Wait till all the kiddies get this from Santa. Then the Canadian and European invasion of those who are not pleased with the quick difficulty ramp in BWT.

Tell everyone not to play campaign but quickplay...just ain't gonna happen.

I'll add in it's not just the quick ramp from easy>medium but also medium>hard.

We formed a band of my wife (medium vocals, she can sing), 1 teenage boy (hard drums, he plays expert guitar), 1 teenage boy (hard guitar) and me (medium bass).

Guitar Hero III was my first experience with plastic guitar and I literally spent a month, about 20 hours just getting competent enough to handle medium guitar in preparation for Rock Band.

So we get the message 2 hours into our gameplay that medium just isn't good enough to progress with fans, challenges, and venues. I was having a blast with the game on medium and have ZERO interest in spending another 20 hours learning the shift and speedier notes on hard. But the game says I have to. Same with our medium vocalist, she was actually struggling some on medium, need to just tell her to suddenly sing better to stay alive on hard.

Needless to say it was a buzzkill. Our medium players became a liability to progression and now we have the choice of just axing 2 of our members to progress or practice learing hard mode which we have zero interest in doing. We just wanted to go on tour and have fun as a family.

And this is for playing on medium. Average. Normal. Standard. In any other game medium would be considered the par norm and you would be allowed to finish a game sans some unlockable items or achievements saved for the hardcore gamers.

As it stands, we haven't played the game since that happened and I have a feeling our band is now disbanded.

And I have read more than a few tales on here of similar events happening to others. People can argue why it shouldn't be till they are blue in the face, but the fact of the matter is it's happening. And that doesn't bode well for word of mouth, future DLC sales, nor RB2.

A simple solution would be BWT Sim Mode (everything stays as is) and BWT Arcade Mode (no fan cap, all venues unlockable at any skill level, achievements and leaderboards disabled so the Sim moders epeens aren't hurt).

[Kingfish]

A simple solution would be BWT Sim Mode (everything stays as is) and BWT Arcade Mode (no fan cap, all venues unlockable at any skill level, achievements and leaderboards disabled so the Sim moders epeens aren't hurt).

I like this...a LOT!

[HellishFiend]

A simple solution would be BWT Sim Mode (everything stays as is) and BWT Arcade Mode (no fan cap, all venues unlockable at any skill level, achievements and leaderboards disabled so the Sim moders epeens aren't hurt).

Best suggestion for a BWT "fix" i've seen so far.

[tbradshaw]

the quick difficulty ramp in BWT.

This is just impossible. The Band World Tour is self-paced. You go at whatever speed you want. Because the BWT is self-paced, the difficulty "ramp" can have no speed associated in. Band World Tour is a sandbox you get to tour around in that reveals itself to you quickly as your notoriety gains.

You do not have to play a newly announced city/venue/gig as soon as it's announced and, most importantly, you're expected to play each setlist more than once. It's a Band World Tour experience, and part of that experience is playing the same setlist a few times until you have it perfect. (or at least perfect enough that it's 5 stars at your chosen difficulty)


In other news, your family band sounds like an absolute blast. I wouldn't let the fact that you can't get more fans be a buzz kill. That's just what happens in music, you plateau for a little while. :) Given enough time and practice, your family will be rockin'. :)

[Dun1a]

This is just impossible. The Band World Tour is self-paced. You go at whatever speed you want. Because the BWT is self-paced, the difficulty "ramp" can have no speed associated in. Band World Tour is a sandbox you get to tour around in that reveals itself to you quickly as your notoriety gains.

My original post has been mainly about the experience for new players. Those 2-4 players who logically begin BWT on easy and climb through the difficulty ladder. While many players who purchase this game might be familiar with the guitar aspect, they will very likely be unfamiliar with the singing and drumming portions. It is somewhat a sandbox and not as clear cut as the solo tour, but there is a very logical progression path of more difficult songs/setlists and clearly defined "checkpoints" or "hurdles" or whatever we may want to call them. There is a definite speed at which these checkpoints are presented and that speed is not well tuned for new players. It seems well tuned for medium players and above. My point is that for the next iteration of this wonderful game that Harmonix puts out, they should spend a bit more time playtesting with new players.

I agree with Tbradshaw and the first venues of each city mark the correct path for beginner players difficulty ramp. However, the opening of certain items at their current pace and reaching various challenges makes that ramp confusing. The fan cap is an effective pacing mechanism, but not a very well tuned one. Items like the "Jet" challenge should not open up until the players have completed far more songs at the higher end of easy difficulty and when they could begin attempting lower level medium songs.

I also agree with Oblong. The game will present players with full screen notifications of unlocked challenges. These are "push" mechanisms for a player. These should be a way to press the player to attempt something at a higher difficulty or expose them to a new aspect of gameplay. However, these challenges are currently set to "push" the player from Easy to Medium, or Medium to Hard, etc due to how they interact with the fan caps. The speed at which these occur can be as few as 10-15 songs. That is far too soon for the players to reasonably be prepared to change difficulties. I'm not suggesting removing these challenges, but having them occur later in the campaigns and/or adjusting the speed at which lockouts occur. This allows the players to practice longer at their current speed and extend playability of the campaign.

I disagree with opening up all of the content to easy level (or even medium and hard) players in BWT. I disagree with making the game less challenging. Challenge is an integral part of gameplay, but frustration and confusion should not be especially for beginners.

[railcs]

I disagree with opening up all of the content to easy level (or even medium and hard) players in BWT. I disagree with making the game less challenging. Challenge is an integral part of gameplay, but frustration and confusion should not be especially for beginners.

It is irresponsible these days to not allow gamers to play on a level of skill that they feel comfortable with. By not allowing people to finish the game on any setting the company is basically saying they don’t want the amount of sales they could have. It should be a consumer’s choice to decide what that level is. Games that force people to play on harder and harder difficulties to complete said game take that control away from the person playing the game and will translate from word of mouth to monetary loss.

The fact is to reach more people and to sell more of a game it must garner to the mass majority. It is not in a developer’s main interest to leave out a group of people for the sake of the “leet gamers.” I’m two classes away from having a bachelors in software engineering. (They have just started a “gaming” certificate here. I’m going for that as well.) This is a huge topic in those classes. You want a high saturation of the market for your product. This is a great way of making sure you won’t get that.

Again, these days it’s irresponsible.

[Hanover]

The fact is, you are just not good enough to go to those venues yet. Thats just like in real life...people don't go to concerts in arenas just to hear a bunch of novice musicians. So go back to the venues you have access to, get good and earn the right to play those venues. It's not like they lock all the songs and you can't play them until you get to the higher venues.

And I'm tired of hearing the argument, "BUT THIS ISNT REAL LIFE!" Because it IS like any other video game. You have to get through point B to get from A to C. All they ask for you is to get better. But everyone just wants to be lazy because "getting good at something just isn't fun." When you forget what it might feel like to actually accomplish something that looked impossible...when you and your friends can stand up, scream, and high-five because you finally made it to the next level.

So...if you're just going to throw your drumsticks at the wall, get up and walk away simply because the game required you to get good at it, I suggest you stop playing video games and find another hobby. Those are the rules to this game. If you don't like the rules, then dont play the game.



It is irresponsible these days to not allow gamers to play on a level of skill that they feel comfortable with. By not allowing people to finish the game on any setting the company is basically saying they don’t want the amount of sales they could have. It should be a consumer’s choice to decide what that level is. Games that force people to play on harder and harder difficulties to complete said game take that control away from the person playing the game and will translate from word of mouth to monetary loss.

The fact is to reach more people and to sell more of a game it must garner to the mass majority. It is not in a developer’s main interest to leave out a group of people for the sake of the “leet gamers.” I’m two classes away from having a bachelors in software engineering. (They have just started a “gaming” certificate here. I’m going for that as well.) This is a huge topic in those classes. You want a high saturation of the market for your product. This is a great way of making sure you won’t get that.

Again, these days it’s irresponsible.

[Ultrace]

It is irresponsible these days to not allow gamers to play on a level of skill that they feel comfortable with. By not allowing people to finish the game on any setting the company is basically saying they don’t want the amount of sales they could have. It should be a consumer’s choice to decide what that level is. Games that force people to play on harder and harder difficulties to complete said game take that control away from the person playing the game and will translate from word of mouth to monetary loss.
But you can finish BWT on Medium. You see the credits and everything. There is additional content in the form of added venues with challenges (bonus levels if you will) that have to be unlocked by playing at a higher difficulty. But a player is considered to have "won" BWT when they complete the Hall of Fame challenge, which medium allows--or complete the Endless Setlist if you want to get extreme about it.

What you're talking about is really bonus content. Let's take a look at another recently released game that's gotten great reviews--Super Mario Galaxy. In this game, you collect stars hidden about levels. Gaining these stars unlocks areas for play. If you are not good enough to get the stars, you don't get the areas. You can still beat the game, but unless you are a "leet" gamer, you will not get to access all of the content. This hasn't caused any sort of furor across the industry, so clearly this line of thinking is somewhat acceptable.

[railcs]

I've almost beaten the solo game on hard. So it's not that I don't have the skill to do it. This game is far easier than GHIII. (Except for the drums) I’ve been playing games since the atria 2600. I used to consider myself a hardcore gamer until I realized how dumb the whole concept was. More and more people have less time and/or less want to practice a video game for hours upon hours to get great at something that will serve them no purpose. (As you put it - a game isn’t real) The original Nintendo had games that were merciless in terms of difficulty and make RB look sad. That’s not the point anymore. The point is to get as many people playing as possible. Especially in a party game environment like RB.


The fact is, you are just not good enough to go to those venues yet. Thats just like in real life...people don't go to concerts in arenas just to hear a bunch of novice musicians. So go back to the venues you have access to, get good and earn the right to play those venues. It's not like they lock all the songs and you can't play them until you get to the higher venues.

And I'm tired of hearing the argument, "BUT THIS ISNT REAL LIFE!" Because it IS like any other video game. You have to get through point B to get from A to C. All they ask for you is to get better. But everyone just wants to be lazy because "getting good at something just isn't fun." When you forget what it might feel like to actually accomplish something that looked impossible...when you and your friends can stand up, scream, and high-five because you finally made it to the next level.

So...if you're just going to throw your drumsticks at the wall, get up and walk away simply because the game required you to get good at it, I suggest you stop playing video games and find another hobby. Those are the rules to this game. If you don't like the rules, then dont play the game.

When you pay for a game do you find it acceptable that you may never open all areas of the game? That there will be bonus content that you paid for but the developer saw fit to keep it from you unless you played to their expectations. (And yes you pay for all the content on the disk. So don't give me... "you don't pay for the bonus content." Everyone pays for the development of all the content when you buy the game.) This is unacceptable. This also happens nowhere else. You’ll see this change very soon...and it already is. (Within the industry)

As far as galaxies goes…the game is far easier this iteration. Sunshine was much harder. While 2-3 purple coin challenges may give the average casual gamer a rough time it is not outside their scope to finish them. Anyone that has been playing as long as I have will find them extremely easy. (I have the 120 stars and the secret.)


What you're talking about is really bonus content. Let's take a look at another recently released game that's gotten great reviews--Super Mario Galaxy. In this game, you collect stars hidden about levels. Gaining these stars unlocks areas for play. If you are not good enough to get the stars, you don't get the areas. You can still beat the game, but unless you are a "leet" gamer, you will not get to access all of the content. This hasn't caused any sort of furor across the industry, so clearly this line of thinking is somewhat acceptable.

[Hanover]

Not only do I find it acceptable, it's common practice. They are called "Unlockables" and many MANY video games have them.

There are many RPG's with sidequests I could never get to. World of Warcraft has a world in it's last expansion that only the elite will ever see...anyone CAN get there if they try hard enough.

DDR had modes and stuff you could only get to if you were really good.

When I played FFVII it took me over a month to finally get the elusive Knights of the Round Table spell...did I call and complain to Square that I DESERVED that spell because I bought the game and should be have whatever it was I wanted? No, persevered and when I finally got that spell, I took myself out for a beer and was happy that I actually did it on my own....the same when I finally beat Suffragette City on expert guitar which allowed me to get to the next song.

It is NOT common practice for a game company to change the rules of their games because someone refuses to make any effort. Sorry, I've never had a company "dumb down" a game for me in the 26 years I've been gaming. Sometimes they get dumbed down during regionalization, but thats about it.

I realize it's frustrating...but let me tell you, frustration leading to victory is much more satisfying than knowing someone had to let me cheat to win. If Harmonix changes things, then that's cool...but I don't think anyone has a right to tell them they HAVE to do anything.

Jeeze, I with they would have called Quick Play, "Party Mode" and called BWT "Campaign Mode." It would have saved a lot of headaches.

Have any of you ever played a video game before Rock Band?



When you pay for a game do you find it acceptable that you may never open all areas of the game? That there will be bonus content that you paid for but the developer saw fit to keep it from you unless you played to their expectations. (And yes you pay for all the content on the disk. So don't give me... "you don't pay for the bonus content." Everyone pays for the development of all the content when you buy the game.) This is unacceptable. This also happens nowhere else. You’ll see this change very soon...and it already is. (Within the industry)

[davidshek]

Have any of you ever played a video game before Rock Band?

QFT. Thread over, Hanover wins :)

[Grey_Street]

Have any of you ever played a video game before Rock Band?

Have you ever played a video game that stops counting your score when you hit a certain point?

[Oblong]

Have any of you ever played a video game before Rock Band?

At 43, I have been playing videos LONG before you were born. Every system ever made. Seriously.

Even this gen, well over 100 different 360 games and a gamescore near 30,000. I have beat many, many games, thank you.

And the only game in the past 10 years I have complained about it's progression besides Rock Band is Ninja Gaiden. (Yeah, I had trouble with NG and wish they had included an "easy" mode instead of just medium/hard/ninja or whatever).

Rock Band is being sold as a party game. Partygoers want to do the meat of the game, BWT. Many are not enjoying the way it's presented, myself included.

You can sing it's not an issue until you are blue in the face, and I have no doubt it's not an issue for you and others. But there seems to be a large contingent of those who think it IS an issue. People that don't normally complain about the progression in video games. People that have had the wind taken out of their sails while playing this type of presentation of a video game.

So I would suggest to you at the bare minimum recognize that an inordinate number of people are finding issue with it and hope that something is done about it. Doing so will help sales (word of mouth), help keep people to continue to play the game which is good for future choices in DLC, and will ultimately help YOU.

[Maggot_Brain]

This is just impossible. The Band World Tour is self-paced. You go at whatever speed you want. Because the BWT is self-paced, the difficulty "ramp" can have no speed associated in. Band World Tour is a sandbox you get to tour around in that reveals itself to you quickly as your notoriety gains.


This is extremely worrisome. You got to listen to what the customer is saying: Buzzkill. No fun. Kids stop playing and go to something else. Some people are never going to get better than medium. I know how Harmonix sees the BWT. Now you're getting feedback from the Real World and I hope ya'll aren't too proud to fix it. You want us to keep playing and buying DLC, don't you?

[Maggot_Brain]

The fact is, you are just not good enough to go to those venues yet. Thats just like in real life...people don't go to concerts in arenas just to hear a bunch of novice musicians. So go back to the venues you have access to, get good and earn the right to play those venues. It's not like they lock all the songs and you can't play them until you get to the higher venues.

And I'm tired of hearing the argument, "BUT THIS ISNT REAL LIFE!" Because it IS like any other video game. You have to get through point B to get from A to C. All they ask for you is to get better. But everyone just wants to be lazy because "getting good at something just isn't fun." When you forget what it might feel like to actually accomplish something that looked impossible...when you and your friends can stand up, scream, and high-five because you finally made it to the next level.

So...if you're just going to throw your drumsticks at the wall, get up and walk away simply because the game required you to get good at it, I suggest you stop playing video games and find another hobby. Those are the rules to this game. If you don't like the rules, then dont play the game.

That would be a prime example of the "leet" internet meme.

[DesiredFX]

We tire of this. We declare this argument resolved.

Harmonix is ordered to discuss the problems revealed in this thread and report to Us before the year is out.

As it has been declared, so let it be done.

[Maggot_Brain]

We tire of this. We declare this argument resolved.

Harmonix is ordered to discuss the problems revealed in this thread and report to Us before the year is out.

As it has been declared, so let it be done.

Second. Better hear something soon!

[railcs]

Have any of you ever played a video game before Rock Band?

IF you actually read my post you’d know the answer to that. What you’re describing is an archaic format. As the industry grows things change.

I’m not telling them to change the game. What’s done is done. There will just be a large amount of people that will be unhappy with the game that they have or not buy it in the first place. Less product selling is a lose lose for everyone. But I guess as long as the core group is satisfied it’s warranted.

On average a person will tell 10 people they’re not happy with a product. Reversely they will tell 0-3 if they are happy with it.

[Ultrace]

At 43, I have been playing videos LONG before you were born. Every system ever made. Seriously.

Even this gen, well over 100 different 360 games and a gamescore near 30,000. I have beat many, many games, thank you.

And the only game in the past 10 years I have complained about it's progression besides Rock Band is Ninja Gaiden. (Yeah, I had trouble with NG and wish they had included an "easy" mode instead of just medium/hard/ninja or whatever).

Rock Band is being sold as a party game. Partygoers want to do the meat of the game, BWT. Many are not enjoying the way it's presented, myself included.

You can sing it's not an issue until you are blue in the face, and I have no doubt it's not an issue for you and others. But there seems to be a large contingent of those who think it IS an issue. People that don't normally complain about the progression in video games. People that have had the wind taken out of their sails while playing this type of presentation of a video game.

So I would suggest to you at the bare minimum recognize that an inordinate number of people are finding issue with it and hope that something is done about it. Doing so will help sales (word of mouth), help keep people to continue to play the game which is good for future choices in DLC, and will ultimately help YOU.
I wasn't going to hop back into this until you started playing the "I've been playing games longer than you were born card," but there we are. I've been playing games exactly as long as Hanover (26 years) -- there have been plenty of games which restrict you based on difficulty. They range from bonus stages or items like the Super Mario Galaxy and Final Fantasy VII already mentioned to the endings of the game, like Contra III on the SNES or Fatal Frame more recently. Some games limit stages and the endings. For instance, playing Valkyrie Profile on the lowest of its three difficulties prevents you from accessing the final dungeon of the game and getting the good ending. There are several dungeons that you cannot access unless you play on the hardest of the three difficulties, and these dungeons contain key items to unlock the doors of another dungeon available after the game is finished.

Whether you had issue with games in the past decade or not, rest assured games that limit your experience based on the difficulty level you select do exist, and some are even less forgiving than Rock Band.

You take umbrage at the fact that this is set up as a party game and yet BWT is restrictive. I do not see BWT as a party mode and anyone who does should reconsider. Quickplay is a party mode. Throw people together, play a song (which you get to pick!) and then swap out whoever you like for the next song. That's a party mode. Now, a mode where the game tells you what song you'll play and where you'll play it at, where you develop and build your band from the ground-up. That's not a party mode to me. That's a dedicated sit down mode. When you get your friends together for some party GH, do you star a new career and take turns working down the list? I would think you would do the quickplay option, even in GH3 where you have co-op careers available.

Partygoers want to play music, they don't want to sit down and "develop" a band so they can play that music. I've already discussed it with my friends in advance of Christmas when we'll be opening it and they agree--quickplay is the way to go. BWT is for groups who can get together and dedicate the time on a regular basis. Otherwise, it takes too long to get to where you want to be. Quickplay satisfies the "Party Game" aspect of RB quite fine. The only problem with it is that the songs have to be unlocked first, but that's no different than any of the GH games.

Yes, there are a lot of people who think this is an issue and are speaking their minds. But there are far, far more who don't think it's an issue or don't think it's enough of one to come speak about it, because the game sold 76,000 copies in its first week and I've seen 2-3 dozen people speak out on the subject here. The difficulty-based restrictions in BWT have precedent within the gaming industry and do not hinder the ability to "finish" the game or to play the music itself. Everything else is gravy, bonus content.

[railcs]

sold 76,000 copies in its first week

Realize that a game must sell 500,000 copies these days to break even. (next gen) It needs to break 1 mill to be considered profitable.

[davidshek]

Realize that a game must sell 500,000 copies these days to break even. (next gen) It needs to break 1 mill to be considered profitable.

I'm sure it would've sold more if more had been available in the major areas that had shortages...I mean, just look at all the people trying to price-gouge on Ebay and Craigslist. They wouldn't be able to do that if supply had met initial demand ;)

[Hanover]

The next time I go bowling and do poorly, I'm going to complain to the manager of the bowling alley that I didnt get my money's worth and that they should do something to make me instantly play better or they better give me my money back. It's totally irresponsible for that bowling alley not to allow me to play bowling any way I want to.

Next time I go to the batting cages and I start missing, I'm going to complain to the people that run the place. They better make it easier for me to hit the ball, and I better be able to hit the ball every time...that would be irresponsible for them to not let me bat the way I want to when I paid good money to hit baseballs.

When I go play golf and start doing worse than everyone else. I will go to the management and demand that I be able to start from the middle of the course and play golf the way I want to. It would be totally irresponsible for the not to let people play golf the way they want to...we paid the money, we should be able to play golf any way we want.

Jeeze louise...

Now something differen't...after playing BWT for a couple of days...I can agree that they should draw out the fan cap so that you get to play more songs and practice a bit more, but I dont think they should eliminate it entirely. If they do remove them, then that should disqualify you from advancing on the leader boards.



That would be a prime example of the "leet" internet meme.

[Frederf]

Oh boy, I was hoping 70+ pages was big enough to hold that whole mess so the rest of the threads could be free of such flop.

I'd like to speak first in reply to the OP, before the shark frenzy began. Yeah the fan cap should happen just a touch before the average player is ready to jump up difficulties, not 7 sets in. Any challenges regarding fans seem rather moot if you're stuck up under that ceiling.


You see messages from your manager telling you to need more fans to have a world tour, but after completing songs it tells you you need to play at a higher difficulty to get more fans. You start seeing these messages after completing only around 10-15 songs.

Really? At what point does your manager tell you that you need more fans to go to new venues. Is this jet/stadium territory we're talking about or bus/club territory?

I had no idea that very many of the setlists required Medium, but I am glad that the game isn't win, win, win, win but actually have ups and down, gains of fans and loses as well. It's rather silly to have risk of negative consequences in the game if they never happen to the player(s).

The drum difficulty does seem to be different than other parts. I accepted that I was transitioning from easy to medium drums with difficulty while our singer had difficulty transitioning to hard and our guitarist was coasting along at expert. We feel like a band.

===============

Line drawn, information incoming.

First of all, BWT is not a "I'm going to beat BWT on easy" and then "Now I'm going to beat BWT on medium" and then "Now I'm going to beat BWT on hard" etc. BWT is one entity and you fall where you may along that spectrum. There are ample things to do no matter what level you are at, but it's one road, not four parallel roads. One road.

Now this idea that "I'm on easy and as such I can't 100% BWT on easy, let me let me now!" is shortsighted since not only are venues and songs content but challenge is content too! Take away the need to elevate our (band's) skill as we progress through BWT and you take away content from me (and you) in exactly the same manner as if a venue, guitar, or song was removed from the game.

[Ultrace]

Realize that a game must sell 500,000 copies these days to break even. (next gen) It needs to break 1 mill to be considered profitable.
I wasn't trying to brag about the success of Rock Band; I was speaking to how many copies were sold versus how many complaints we actually see on this issue--a very small ratio.

[SoulScreme]

I wasn't trying to brag about the success of Rock Band; I was speaking to how many copies were sold versus how many complaints we actually see on this issue--a very small ratio.

That is a nonsensicle argument. The majority of purchasers don't know that the game could be patched, and even if they did would not be able to find their way here to lodge a complaint if they had one.

[Oblong]

I wasn't trying to brag about the success of Rock Band; I was speaking to how many copies were sold versus how many complaints we actually see on this issue--a very small ratio.


Go check the leaderboards. Only about 2,000 of the 40,000 ranked bands on 360 have made it past the hard fan cap of medium.

Whether that many are bothered by that or not is one story, but you can at least assertain that the lionshare of people playing the game are affected by it.

[Dun1a]

Really? At what point does your manager tell you that you need more fans to go to new venues. Is this jet/stadium territory we're talking about or bus/club territory?

I believe this was to unlock the jet challenge. First the manager's advised us to get more stars in a certain city, after we completed the necessary stars he advised we needed more fans. We could continue to unlock additional venues, but the manager popups always said we needed more fans. We also continued to receive the "charity gig" challenges with the nonsensical options. I believe either the "Roadie" challenge or the "Bus" challenge were the final unlockable challenge setlists available to us on Easy and were about 10-12 sets in.

That band was one we had leader with a drummer, but have temporarily abandoned now that our replacement Strat has arrived. We've been able to complete the jet challenge doing a guitar & bass combo on medium with this new band. The 3 song Jet setlist is "Random, Random, Train kept a rollin'". We got "Won't get fooled again", and "Foreplay/Long Time" for the random songs. We struggled a bit with those long somewhat difficult songs, but managed to complete them using the savior abilities. Having variations in skill level of 2 players is easier to deal with using the Guitar/Bass combo. Guitar/Bass are the only instruments where you can activate Overdrive whenever you need it.

BTW. No problems with the replacement Strat strum bar. I still have some problems activating Overdrive consistently. I've learned to play with the neck at near 45 degree angle to avoid random Overdrive activations.

[Dun1a]

Go check the leaderboards. Only about 2,000 of the 40,000 ranked bands on 360 have made it past the hard fan cap of medium.

Whether that many are bothered by that or not is one story, but you can at least assertain that the lionshare of people playing the game are affected by it.

I don't know that that necessarily means anything right now. I have 3 different bands ranked at various levels because of using different instruments for the band's leader. None of them are past the medium cap, but I'm sure I can eventually get one or more of them into hard difficulty. I would just like to take my time to do so and not press my bandmates into trying hard before they are ready.

Also we are only a couple of weeks since the game's release. Many people are struggling with the drums and vocals shift from medium to hard. Even some of the people in this thread have players that can play guitar on hard or expert, but have bandmates that can't yet.

[Oblong]

I don't know that that necessarily means anything right now. I have 3 different bands ranked at various levels because of using different instruments for the band's leader. None of them are past the medium cap, but I'm sure I can eventually get one or more of them into hard difficulty. I would just like to take my time to do so and not press my bandmates into trying hard before they are ready.

Also we are only a couple of weeks since the game's release. Many people are struggling with the drums and vocals shift from medium to hard. Even some of the people in this thread have players that can play guitar on hard or expert, but have bandmates that can't yet.


Fantastic!

You've now explained why 3 of the 38,000 bands aren't stuck on the medium fan cap. Only 37,997 to go and everything can just go back to the peaches and cream setting of your world where nobody is affected by this draconian fan cap.

:rolleyes:

[Ultrace]

That is a nonsensicle argument. The majority of purchasers don't know that the game could be patched, and even if they did would not be able to find their way here to lodge a complaint if they had one.
Wait, you mean it's not such a gamebreaking issue that they would complain anyway? People are mostly complaining here because they know it could be added? If an issue is real, you complain even if it can't be fixed the way you want it to, that's human nature. And if not here, we'd be hearing about it elsewhere. Ultimately, the amount of feedback on this issue that we're seeing measured against the proven sales of the game so far indicate that this is something minor, albeit not to those people who feel slighted by it.

[Hanover]

I think as people have already summed it up again and again...

Quick Play is for groups with lots of people who just want to pass around the instruments, play various songs and have a good time.

BWT is for people who can dedicate time to playing Rock Band and who want to get good at playing and get through all the challenges. It's a campaign...which requires commitment.

It's as simple as that. It's been stated in interviews and reviews that this is what BWT is for.

I imagined people getting on message boards, looking for people to play in person in order to get as far as they could in this campaign mode...and as soon as they implement it online, the same thing will happen.

"Looking for expert guitarist. Should be able to score at least xxx on Green Grass and High Tides. Contact me if you're interested."

As soon as I received my Rock Band kit, I contacted quite a few friends asking them who could make it on a weekly basis for regular rock band evenings. Pizza, beer and getting good as a team playing this game. Yup, sunday afternoons it is.

As far I am concerned, Harmonix delivered what they had been saying they were going to deliver.

[Frederf]

Fantastic!

You've now explained why 3 of the 38,000 bands aren't stuck on the medium fan cap. Only 37,997 to go and everything can just go back to the peaches and cream setting of your world where nobody is affected by this draconian fan cap.

:rolleyes:

You can add one (me) to the number of people that are positively affected by the fan cap. My band isn't fully above the hard threshold in the slightest and yet I like it. Not everyone below the fan cap thinks it's a kitten-abuser.

@Dun1a: I don't have much experience of what the easy cap keeps you from. The jet challenge would make sense. Can you count the number of venues that are available / songs that are playable without the jet?

[Dun1a]

Fantastic!

You've now explained why 3 of the 38,000 bands aren't stuck on the medium fan cap. Only 37,997 to go and everything can just go back to the peaches and cream setting of your world where nobody is affected by this draconian fan cap.

:rolleyes:

I was just gently pointing out that your argument was based on a Post Hoc logical fallacy. There can be very many reasons why that number of bands are below the medium fan cap threshold. The fact that the game has been out less than 2 weeks should be a major contributing factor. Players experimenting with various instruments could be another. I wouldn't consider it evidence that the "lionshare" of players are affected, or that they are affected in a negative way.

I also have found the medium band experience so far to be fairly well tuned. The fan cap is reached much later into the campaign. The hard capped challenges show up late enough in the campaign for a player to have had several dozen songs to complete including many 4+ song setlists. The same issue of "charity" challenges continues to appear however.

[SoulScreme]

I was just gently pointing out that your argument was based on a Post Hoc logical fallacy. There can be very many reasons why that number of bands are below the medium fan cap threshold. The fact that the game has been out less than 2 weeks should be a major contributing factor. Players experimenting with various instruments could be another. I wouldn't consider it evidence that the "lionshare" of players are affected, or that they are affected in a negative way.

I also have found the medium band experience so far to be fairly well tuned. The fan cap is reached much later into the campaign. The hard capped challenges show up late enough in the campaign for a player to have had several dozen songs to complete including many 4+ song setlists. The same issue of "charity" challenges continues to appear however.

Wait, are you serious? It took me 6 hours to get to the cap. My problem is that unless you are already great on an instrument (i play drums in our band) 6 hours isn't nearly enough time or experience to be moving up to hard. I was asked to move up to hard before I'd even played all the medium songs. Sure we were 5-starring everything, but that's because it was all early stuff.

[Dun1a]

@Dun1a: I don't have much experience of what the easy cap keeps you from. The jet challenge would make sense. Can you count the number of venues that are available / songs that are playable without the jet?

Sure, I'll check out the number of venues tonight. I'll check the number of songs from available songlists as well.

I don't recall exactly how many songlists it took to begin receiving the challenges or to advance to the jet challenge. Those numbers should be easy to find somewhere in a walkthrough. I believe it may have unlocked after a certain number of stars were gained. If this is the case, this might be my main issue with the tuning.

If the challenges unlock based on number of stars gained, this may be why they seem to unlock too quickly. For example, players may play "In Bloom" 3-4 times out of 12 setlists, they will be fairly proficient at that song by the 3rd or 4th time and may possibly 5-star it or even be able to pass it on medium. It's far more difficult to 5-star a song on medium than on easy.

At that point they will still likely not be proficient enough to play the more challenging songs. Now, in some medium sized and most large venues, the player is restricted to medium difficulty or above.

If this is the case, then perhaps tuning the easy level challenges to unlock after completing a certain number and level of songs would have made more sense.

[Dun1a]

Wait, are you serious? It took me 6 hours to get to the cap. My problem is that unless you are already great on an instrument (i play drums in our band) 6 hours isn't nearly enough time or experience to be moving up to hard. I was asked to move up to hard before I'd even played all the medium songs. Sure we were 5-starring everything, but that's because it was all early stuff.

You might be right about the 6 hours. I haven't reached the medium fan cap yet. We played for only about 4 hours on medium. We had not experienced the same issues we found when we played a little more than an hour on easy difficulty, so it felt much better tuned to us. We can 5-star the early stuff too, but struggle on some of the later songs. My feeling is that once a player could successfully complete "Green grass & high tides" on medium without failing, they should be able to begin the hard campaign setlists and start receiving the hard level challenges. Sounds like that's not happening.

*Edit- Maybe "Green grass & high tides" is a little too far on medium difficulty to begin receiving hard challenges. I'm sure a few hard challenges could be done before you could complete that song on medium.

I tend to perceive the switch from medium to hard to be one of the more difficult transitions based on my experience in GH. That might not be valid given the new instruments Rock Band has included and their transitions from medium to hard don't include things like "the shift".

[Dun1a]

I noticed one thing I wish Harmonix would have done.

You know those things that pop up after your score like "Most Gutsy", or "Band Savior", etc.'

I wish they had a thing like Halo 3 or Call of Duty 4 does where you can see which of these quasi-achievements you've collected. In those games they're treated like medals.

My father-in-law couldn't get the strat to trigger overpower and he got something like "Power Hog" at the end. I found one from reading the Bass achievement where you play upstrum only (the achievement is expert only, but I thought I'd see how it played). I got an "Authentic Strummer" or something note at the end. These are kind of neat and I hope there are many more.

As far as how the bass played, I noticed that for some reason I started trying to pull the strummer up and hold it until the note came to let it go. Like I was trying to hold back the string and then release for the note. Of course it caused me to trigger the strum early. I'm not sure why I started doing that.

[Frederf]

Lol maybe you started to think you were Robin Hood.

The "Most Gutsy" stuff is designed to just be a fun grading of your performance, not a collect 'em all trophy case item. So much trophy casing going on in modern video games... >.>

[DethBoxx]

I had people over when I first got and set up Rock Band. Guess what we went straight to?

QUiCK PLAY MODE.

That is what you use for informal gatherings. The world tour is for people willing to practice and have commitment.

[Frederf]

It'd be nice if quick play mode didn't suck for no reason though.

[Dun1a]

I had people over when I first got and set up Rock Band. Guess what we went straight to?

QUiCK PLAY MODE.

That is what you use for informal gatherings. The world tour is for people willing to practice and have commitment.

I still get the feeling some people posting in this thread don't bother reading the original post. I wonder who they want to talk to. :confused:

My post (and subsequent thread) is about some issues I noted when a group of new players begin playing BWT on easy difficulty. I also brought up what I personally found are variances in difficulty curves for each of the instruments (in my opinion).
A few others have brought up some of their own experiences and some valid points about those issues occurring later at medium difficulty.
Some have offered ways to smooth out these rough patches in the early campaign.

[Maggot_Brain]

I had people over when I first got and set up Rock Band. Guess what we went straight to?

QUiCK PLAY MODE.

That is what you use for informal gatherings. The world tour is for people willing to practice and have commitment.

Well, thanks for telling us how to play it.

[DethBoxx]

You're welcome.

[WHEREYAAT]

I didn't read through all the posts so I don't know if this has been proposed, but it seems that maybe some % of fans shoould be earned if you play at different difficulties. So say you have a drummer and a guitarist playing BWT, and you get to the cap where you earn no more fans at medium difficulty. You should be able to play the guitarist on hard and leave the drummer on medium and earn in this case 1/2 the fans. This would allow for the drummer to progress better and still allow for you to earn more fans and events. Of course if you were playing with all instruments and all but the drummer was playing in hard you would earn 3/4. Hopefully you understand my math.....?

[Quyrean]

The next time I go bowling and do poorly, I'm going to complain to the manager of the bowling alley that I didnt get my money's worth and that they should do something to make me instantly play better or they better give me my money back. It's totally irresponsible for that bowling alley not to allow me to play bowling any way I want to.


So you are saying that if you score all gutterballs in the first 5 frames, that the game stops? and you are not allowed to play the last 5 frames because you sucked on the first 5????

And, actually if you do ask the bowling manager to make it easier, you can get bumpers put up so the ball will not go in the gutter. And then the game of 'bowling' can be played on 'EASY'.

Seriously, there are modes, called Easy, Medium, Hard, and Expert. No one is saying make hard eaiser. I just want to play the BWT mode on easy and be able to unlock all the SONGS. I think it is entirely reasonable to have a special gig/guitar unlock for each difficulty level. But to cut off 50% of the content on easy is too much.

As for the fan cap itself, it does take away some of the fun to have it cap out so quickly.

[Tarzanman]

I still get the feeling some people posting in this thread don't bother reading the original post. I wonder who they want to talk to. :confused:

My post (and subsequent thread) is about some issues I noted when a group of new players begin playing BWT on easy difficulty. I also brought up what I personally found are variances in difficulty curves for each of the instruments (in my opinion).
A few others have brought up some of their own experiences and some valid points about those issues occurring later at medium difficulty.
Some have offered ways to smooth out these rough patches in the early campaign.

Of course there are differences in the learning curves for the instruments... there are *HUGE* differences... and that is the way it should be (in my opinion).... it makes the game interesting.

You should look at the game from a standpoint of the controllers being 'instruments' in their own right.

• The singer uses their voice as an instrument. Singing is something we have all done since we were children..this is understandably the easiest at all difficulties (despite the limitations of the frequency analyzer in the game)

• The RB-guitar/RB-bass player uses the RB-strat as an instrument capable of 14 different 'notes' (button combinations with up to 3 buttons being pressed simultaneously). The bass line doesn't use very many chords, so you really only have 5-7 different notes. Also, the RB-guitar/bass controllers...require rhythm and movement from one hand (the left hand), and only rhythm from the right hand. It should be noted that both hands always move with the same rhythm (hammer-on/offs notwithstanding).

• The RB-drums require movement and rhythm from both hands AND a leg! Not only that, but the rhythms for *each limb is different* (especially on the more difficult songs!) The easy and medium difficulties mitigate this factor by:

1. Keeping the beat on mostly quarter notes or eighth notes
2. Pairing the kick pedal with a simultaneous snare/tom/cymbal

These adjustments for drums on easy and medium keep the hands and feet on the same rhythm which allow you to concentrate on other things (like learning to use your leg to play an instrument).

Anyways, my point is this: The difference in the learning curves on the RB-instruments is inherent in the way that they are played. There is a much higher ceiling for skilled play on drums than there are on guitar or vocals, so it makes total logical sense that there has to be a bigger 'jump' (or steeper learning curve) for one instruments over the other.

[Dun1a]

@Dun1a: I don't have much experience of what the easy cap keeps you from. The jet challenge would make sense. Can you count the number of venues that are available / songs that are playable without the jet?

6 Cities can be unlocked (on European tour, may be different for North America). 10 Venues are available. I didn't have time to count out all of the setlists, but the midlevel venues each had 3 or less setlists available without any additional fans. I'm pretty sure we had unlocked all of the available sets with just star requirements.

[WildBillKickoff]

Singing is something we have all done since we were children..this is understandably the easiest at all difficulties (despite the limitations of the frequency analyzer in the game)


At the beginning, yes. I'm willing to bet that there are fewer people able to do vocals on Expert than drums on Expert when all is said and done, though. The thing that makes vocals the easiest on Easy also makes it the hardest on Expert.

[Dun1a]

Of course there are differences in the learning curves for the instruments... there are *HUGE* differences... and that is the way it should be (in my opinion).... it makes the game interesting.

You should look at the game from a standpoint of the controllers being 'instruments' in their own right.

• The singer uses their voice as an instrument. Singing is something we have all done since we were children..this is understandably the easiest at all difficulties (despite the limitations of the frequency analyzer in the game)

• The RB-guitar/RB-bass player uses the RB-strat as an instrument capable of 14 different 'notes' (button combinations with up to 3 buttons being pressed simultaneously). The bass line doesn't use very many chords, so you really only have 5-7 different notes. Also, the RB-guitar/bass controllers...require rhythm and movement from one hand (the left hand), and only rhythm from the right hand. It should be noted that both hands always move with the same rhythm (hammer-on/offs notwithstanding).

• The RB-drums require movement and rhythm from both hands AND a leg! Not only that, but the rhythms for *each limb is different* (especially on the more difficult songs!) The easy and medium difficulties mitigate this factor by:

1. Keeping the beat on mostly quarter notes or eighth notes
2. Pairing the kick pedal with a simultaneous snare/tom/cymbal

These adjustments for drums on easy and medium keep the hands and feet on the same rhythm which allow you to concentrate on other things (like learning to use your leg to play an instrument).

Anyways, my point is this: The difference in the learning curves on the RB-instruments is inherent in the way that they are played. There is a much higher ceiling for skilled play on drums than there are on guitar or vocals, so it makes total logical sense that there has to be a bigger 'jump' (or steeper learning curve) for one instruments over the other.

Everything you posted is true. For a beginning band, these difficulty splits can occur very quickly and one player can advance far more quickly than another. For example, a vocalist can advance from easy to medium within perhaps 8 songs, while a drummer may require 40 songs before being ready to advance.

This in itself isn't a problem. However, when some of the other issues in BWT such as medium requirements are taken into account, it can present some unwanted frustration and confusion as to how to advance. The game can be tuned to adjust these requirements perhaps based on the instrument types or some other factors to smooth out any issues caused by varied progression rates.