Grunge Clear-Up

[CheezerRox]

Okay, as many of you MAY now, I am a HUGE grunge fan. From NIRVANA and Alice in Chains to Mudhoney and the Melvins, it's all great. Unfortunately, grunge is constantly being mocked and/or misunderstood, and I thougt I might as well clear some stuff up for people who may not already know.

Grunge is a mixture of alternative rock, metal, and punk/hardcore punk.

Nevermind by NIRVANA, Ten by Pearl Jam, Superunknown by Soundgarden, Core by STP, Above by Mad Season, Apple and Shine (and anything else) by Mother Love Bone, and the like ARE NOT GRUNGE RECORDS!!! MOST ARE CORPORATE ALTERNATIVE ROCK RECORDS!!! OTHERS ARE OVER-PRODUCED HARD ROCK RECORDS, ET CETERA!!!!!

If Nevermind and Ten defined grunge, I wouldn't like it.

In Utero by NIRVANA, Vitalogy by Pearl Jam, anything by Alice in Chains (although it's closer to just plain metal),Rubberneck by the Toadies, Superfuzz Bigmuff by Mudhoney, Gluey Porch Treatments by The Melvins (although more metal, usually), the like ARE GRUNGE RECORDS!!!!!



Now, moving on to more recently, just because a genre has grunge in it doesn't mean it IS grunge. That's right people, I'm talking about post-grunge, that poppy alternative/hard rock we all hate. Okay, so the bands labeled as such listened to Nevermind, DOESN'T MEAN THEY'RE GRUNGE. Post-grunge is the red-headed step-child of grunge that was never meant to be, and never should have been. Nickelback and Staind and Godsmack and Everclear and others are all CORPORATE ROCK BANDS. That's not grunge.

Anyway, I could go on some more, but then i'd just ramble. That's the basics. Please, if not understood already, understand your early 90s alternative rock, my friend.

[benson111]

Thanks for clearing this up. I wouldnt know what to like from this "Genre?".

Alt.

[Gowienczyk]

A bit abrasive and sloppy definition there, OP. But you are trying.

[Lolicat]

Could you not have made the point in a more concise and clear manner without resorting to repitition and caps lock? I mean, I'm pretty sure most people in this forum 'got' your point already, without the pedantary of your post.

[CheezerRox]

Thanks for clearing this up. I wouldnt know what to like from this "Genre?".

Alt.

Everyone has their own musical tastes.


A bit abrasive and sloppy definition there, OP. But you are trying.

Well, thanks. :D I'm no column writer or poet, but I'm glad I can at least get my point across.


Could you not have made the point in a more concise and clear manner without resorting to repitition and caps lock? I mean, I'm pretty sure most people in this forum 'got' your point already, without the pedantary of your post.

Oh well, "this forum" will get over it. I mean, not to sound like a douche, but, as I stated before, I'm no writer. I just wanted to get something out there. Sorry if you think it was terrible, but then again, no one made you read it...

[benson111]

Everyone has their own musical tastes.



I am a fan of everything you listed. I just don't think it needs a definition.
Any more genres are too subjective, and un-necessary for me.
"Music" By definition, is "Music". If that makes sense. :confused:

[CheezerRox]

I am a fan of everything you listed. I just don't think it needs a definition.
Any more genres are too subjective, and un-necessary for me.
"Music" By definition, is "Music". If that makes sense. :confused:

Yeah, to be honest, I totally agree with you. But having an iPod and music on my computer makes me go all OCD on this genre thing because I like to be accurate. Plus, (musically) ignorant people annoy the **** out of me. :D By that, I mean today's youth and what-not.

[WhiffleBallTony]

I am a fan of everything you listed. I just don't think it needs a definition.
Any more genres are too subjective, and un-necessary for me.
"Music" By definition, is "Music". If that makes sense. :confused:

The only definition of music that I've actually found that works is "sound in time". It's from a ****ty teaching company DVD that supposedly explored music. It was quite possibly the worst excuse for a course I've ever seen, but that was the one thing that gave me some respect for the guy doing it.

[CheezerRox]

The only definition of music that I've actually found that works is "sound in time". It's from a ****ty teaching company DVD that supposedly explored music. It was quite possibly the worst excuse for a course I've ever seen, but that was the one thing that gave me some respect for the guy doing it.

That's basically what music is. I mean, just listen to some NIN or something and you'll know. XD

[benson111]

Yeah, to be honest, I totally agree with you. But having an iPod and music on my computer makes me go all OCD on this genre thing because I like to be accurate. Plus, (musically) ignorant people annoy the **** out of me. :D By that, I mean today's youth and what-not.

I find musically disinclined people a challenge, more than an annoyance. I feel the need to educate them and move on. That way they can look back and say..."Hey that guy was right ", that way instead of coming off like an "Asshat", or sounding pretentious, i can show them music that they may like in a genre, or "Feel" of music they may actually like.

Just me.

[Onslaught_fei]

Ill be the devil's advocate here. Unfortunately your exact and scholarly narrow definition of grunge will never make any kind of dent in common music definition usage nor will even come close to reflecting 90% of the population's definition and usage of the term grunge. Let something that is twice as old and much more broad like metal be a testament to an impossibly uphill battle of having cast-in-stone strict and sharp musical genre definitons that are agreed to by all.

[warthogdb]

I think that grunge is just a pop culture term coined for the fashion and music industries to have something to sell. Metal guys trip all over themselves to make sure people know how metal they. Guys will go to great lengths to earn the punk label. To my knowledge nobody ever really called themselves grunge. The big four Seattle bands that most people think of as grunge don't even sound like they are in the same genre to my ears. I always found the term to be unnecessary.

[Onslaught_fei]

I think that grunge is just a pop culture term coined for the fashion and music industries to have something to sell.

Uh, considering mainstays of grunge fashion were torn clothes, flannel, and not washing your stuff I think you're so wrong its ridiculous. It was the backlash too hair, glam, sleeze (whatever) metal. The whole idea that "were not pretty" and "dont care about what we wear" and the generation of divorced parents, depression, and cynism. Also the term grunge was coined by the leadvocalist of Mudhoney.

[warthogdb]

Uh, considering mainstays of grunge fashion were torn clothes, flannel, and not washing your stuff I think you're so wrong its ridiculous. It was the backlash too hair, glam, sleeze (whatever) metal. The whole idea that "were not pretty" and "dont care about what we wear" and the generation of divorced parents, depression, and cynism.

Uh, you got a pretty short memory bro if you were even around then. Did you google grunge fashion before you attacked me? Corporate America was all over the movement as soon as they realized that it would sell. They had flannel on fashion runways in Paris for pete's sake. The word was on the cover of every fashion magazine. I'm not saying it makes sense but it is what happened. Do you think millions of kids went to the thrift store to by their Pearl Jam clothes? No. They went to the mall to by pre-worn flannel and jackets that some kid in a sweat shop in tawain carefully tore before shipping.

Grunge was no grass roots movement either. The scene existed in one region for years and only blew up when Nirvana came out on Geffen. Ten was on Sony. Alice in Chains was all over MTV. Backlashes, cynicism and anti-fashion sells just as well as glam and excess. In the early 90s it made a lot of people a lot of money.

[Onslaught_fei]

Uh, you got a pretty short memory bro if you were even around then. Did you google grunge fashion before you attacked me? Corporate America was all over the movement as soon as they realized that it would sell. They had flannel on fashion runways in Paris for pete's sake. The word was on the cover of every fashion magazine. I'm not saying it makes sense but it is what happened. Do you think millions of kids went to the thrift store to by their Pearl Jam clothes? No. They went to the mall to by pre-worn flannel and jackets that some kid in a sweat shop in tawain carefully tore before shipping.

Grunge was no grass roots movement either. The scene existed in one region for years and only blew up when Nirvana came out on Geffen. Ten was on Sony. Alice in Chains was all over MTV. Backlashes, cynicism and anti-fashion sells just as well as glam and excess. In the early 90s it made a lot of people a lot of money.

Grunge was not coined by "corporate america" was not planned, but was taken advantage of. The term grunge was originally used by the bands and original grunge record label (sub pop) themself. Nevermind was not expected by anyone. Not by Nirvana, not by Geffen, not by MTV. No punkesque band, no alternative band, nothing non-stadium rock at the time even came close to how the music video and album took the Seattle scene and spread it like a blanket over America and into the UK. It completely redefined the music industry for rock at the time, killing stadium metal out of the mainstream and putting alternative rock radio to the forefront of every kid in high school's (myself included) listening ears.

Grunge also only lasted about 5 years in the rock limelight. You can say a lot of people profitted from it but fashion is fashion. Fashion companies did not invent grunge (and nor did corporate America) like you implicity imply but merely rode it after the fact as a response to profit on something. What created grunge was Sub Pop's (an indie label) attempts to get similiar bands on a similiar page. The bands themselves did not want to be famous or successful. (Again, no one expected it to turn out how it did) Almost all of them broke up, had suicides, or boycotted major companies.

Fashion companies and "corporate America" did not make Soundgarden, Mudhoney, The Melvins, Alice in Chains, Nirvana, etc...

[chrk]

i heard dave grohl, scientifically proven to be the only talent to come out of grunge, talked kurt "i'm so sad" cobain into killing himself just so he could fasttrack his way out of nirvana and start playing music with other real musicians.

lolgrunge

[warthogdb]

Grunge was not coined by "corporate america" was not planned, but was taken advantage of. The term grunge was originally used by the bands and original grunge record label (sub pop) themself. Nevermind was not expected by anyone. Not by Nirvana, not by Geffen, not by MTV. No punkesque band, no alternative band, nothing non-stadium rock at the time even came close to how the music video and album took the Seattle scene and spread it like a blanket over America and into the UK. It completely redefined the music industry for rock at the time, killing stadium metal out of the mainstream and putting alternative rock radio to the forefront of every kid in high school's (myself included) listening ears.

Grunge also only lasted about 5 years in the rock limelight. You can say a lot of people profitted from it but fashion is fashion. Fashion companies did not invent grunge (and nor did corporate America) like you implicity imply but merely rode it after the fact as a response to profit on something. What created grunge was Sub Pop's (an indie label) attempts to get similiar bands on a similiar page. The bands themselves did not want to be famous or successful. (Again, no one expected it to turn out how it did) Almost all of them broke up, had suicides, or boycotted major companies.

Fashion companies and "corporate America" did not make Soundgarden, Mudhoney, The Melvins, Alice in Chains, Nirvana, etc...

I think that the term became a convenient term to use a catchphrase to sell and it doesn't sound like you disagree with me. My point was that it became such a nebulous generic pop culture term that it has no real meaning musically.

The sad fact is that the actual grunge bands of which you speak did not have the cultural impact. They didn't get famous. They remained on the fringe. The ones that did make it did so by leaving the scene to go with major labels. i.e. Pearl Jam, AIC, Nirvana, Soundgarden.

I don't think any of those bands were intent on spreading "grunge" to the masses. I contrasted that with metal and punk bands who wear their labels with pride. Have you ever heard these bands call themselves grunge?

I'm a punk guy at heart. I appreciate the fact that the 90s alternative scene killed off the guitar school wankers and diluted hair metal scene. I never intended to lesson the impact of the music. I just always thought the term grunge was forced onto different sounding bands who happened to be from the same place.

[Onslaught_fei]

One of subpop's first bands and first singles they produced and distributed was by Nirvana, setting them us a popular local act by mailing CDs out to subscribers. (Geffen themselves were originally an independently operated record label.) Other mainstay grunge acts that were originally a part of Sub Pop were L7, Hole, and Soundgarden. Pearl Jam is a valid "cash-in" excuse but the bands behavior would prove otherwise.

But as far as the Grunge genre having no musical meaning (characteristiclly in a strictly musical way) I agree with you to some extent, as this actually happens to all subgenres of music. Application of what you said about grunge's musical charcteristics are equally appliable to "alternative rock", "heavy metal", or "punk rock". What grunge is guilty of, and this happens to a lot of genres, is that it was a musical movement. Look at other musical movements or (trends, genres, whatever you wanna call them) like New Wave, Krautrock, Numetal, NWOBHM, or Britpop.

There is a certain mindset that a genre of music is set defined and anyone regardless of location and time can be typecast into a certain standard. Genres are journalistic in nature, bands (such a grunge) go out and create music while drawing on inspiration from their audience, other bands and influences and create a common link. I think grunge suits the bands well, as does Kurt Cobain on the term grunge in this interview: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6TwOBGZ3ggk

[warthogdb]

One of subpop's first bands and first singles they produced and distributed was by Nirvana, setting them us a popular local act by mailing CDs out to subscribers. (Geffen themselves were originally an independently operated record label.) Other mainstay grunge acts that were originally a part of Sub Pop were L7, Hole, and Soundgarden. Pearl Jam is a valid "cash-in" excuse but the bands behavior would prove otherwise.

But as far as the Grunge genre having no musical meaning (characteristiclly in a strictly musical way) I agree with you to some extent, as this actually happens to all subgenres of music. Application of what you said about grunge's musical charcteristics are equally appliable to "alternative rock", "heavy metal", or "punk rock". What grunge is guilty of, and this happens to a lot of genres, is that it was a musical movement. Look at other musical movements or (trends, genres, whatever you wanna call them) like New Wave, Krautrock, Numetal, NWOBHM, or Britpop.

There is a certain mindset that a genre of music is set defined and anyone regardless of location and time can be typecast into a certain standard. Genres are journalistic in nature, bands (such a grunge) go out and create music while drawing on inspiration from their audience, other bands and influences and create a common link. I think grunge suits the bands well, as does Kurt Cobain on the term grunge in this interview: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6TwOBGZ3ggk

I think that he is basically saying what I was saying. There had to be a term to sell. It also sounds like he running from the term a little bit and then kind of embracing it. I never liked the term "alternative" either because it is too broad and almost pretentious. I do think that there is more of a self awareness in the metal, at least when I was a kid, and punk scenes. Even Cobain found it more comfortable to affiliate with punk rock. As generations pass it is obviously more and more fragmented.

I guess there has to be a term for it. It doesn't matter what I think. Everyone calls it grunge. I have satellite radio and have the 90s station as a preset. There is a very specific sound that is just as identifiable to that decade as there is for the 80s.

On a different note, I went and looked at the top 100 albums of the 90s and I had totally forgotten how popular country became. I can't help but wonder if all the rednecks that were listening to Poison and Warrant weren't driven back to country when grunge killed hair metal. That is my new theory. Nirvana killed hair metal and paved the way for Garth Brooks.

[Onslaught_fei]

I do not like the term alternative rock as a genre either. To me alternative rock is a radio format (like classic rock or oldies) and not a genre in of itself (Pixies fans will disagree with me). But the term is more broad than broad itself.

As for country music its always been stupidly popular and by redneck you must mean teenage girl, as they historically have contributed to the success of pretty boys.

[Lolicat]

I do not like the term alternative rock as a genre either. To me alternative rock is a radio format (like classic rock or oldies) and not a genre in of itself (Pixies fans will disagree with me). But the term is more broad than broad itself.

As for country music its always been stupidly popular and by redneck you must mean teenage girl, as they historically have contributed to the success of pretty boys.

Alternative rock is a genre, but grunge is not a part of alt. rock. Then again, I am a Pixies fan. I'm totally on your side for everything else however, grunge may have been co-opted by the Dark Forces of Big Capitalism, but it was a scene of its own that existed long before the pollutant of MTV.

[warthogdb]

As for country music its always been stupidly popular and by redneck you must mean teenage girl, as they historically have contributed to the success of pretty boys.

That is why something needed to overthrow hair metal. It went from being rebellious disenfranchised youth music to parents taking their 13 year old daughters to Bon Jovi concerts. That coupled with the infusion of the shredders who played music to show off their technical skill. It's death was inevitable. Grunge made kids feel like more a part of the scene when it simplified the fashion and the music.

There have been similar times in history. Take the sixties. After exciting simple blues music evolved into rock operas and Sgt Peppers, the garage band movement gained momentum. In the 70s when rock turned into stadiums and self indulgent twenty minute solos, punk rock was born. Coming out of the 90s when grunge and punk had evolved into pretty boys playing commercially slick alternative music that teenage girls liked, there was another garage movement.

As for my half joking statement about Garth Brooks, his style of country propelled the genre to heights it had never achieved before and I think that hair metal's death was necessary for this to take place. I think there is evidence found in Bon Jovi and Brett Michaels pandering to the country crowds in recent years. So, in a way, Nirvana cleared the path for commercial country.

[Highlandlassie1]

All of this is in your not-so-humble opinion.

Give me what you would probably call "Post-Grunge" any day over any grunge music.

I call it Rock and Roll.

"Post-Grunge" as you call it is an attempt, and in some cases a good one, to give us music that is most like rock and roll from days past, but with better production and new riffs.

Grunge killed real rock and roll, "Post-Grunge" is trying (and succeeding with me), to bring it back to life.

Of course at 46 years of age, I suppose that my views will be radically different than most on this youth-ruled forum.

[My name is Fez]

A bit abrasive and sloppy definition there, OP. But you are trying.

QFT.


Could you not have made the point in a more concise and clear manner without resorting to repitition and caps lock? I mean, I'm pretty sure most people in this forum 'got' your point already, without the pedantary of your post.

Also QFT.

[MronoC]

All of this is in your not-so-humble opinion.

Give me what you would probably call "Post-Grunge" any day over any grunge music.

I call it Rock and Roll.

"Post-Grunge" as you call it is an attempt, and in some cases a good one, to give us music that is most like rock and roll from days past, but with better production and new riffs.

Grunge killed real rock and roll, "Post-Grunge" is trying (and succeeding with me), to bring it back to life.

Of course at 46 years of age, I suppose that my views will be radically different than most on this youth-ruled forum.

Age isn't a factor, post-grunge is just bad.

my apinyun is grater then urs (:p)

[Alright_Computer]

All of this is in your not-so-humble opinion.

Give me what you would probably call "Post-Grunge" any day over any grunge music.

I call it Rock and Roll.

"Post-Grunge" as you call it is an attempt, and in some cases a good one, to give us music that is most like rock and roll from days past, but with better production and new riffs.

Grunge killed real rock and roll, "Post-Grunge" is trying (and succeeding with me), to bring it back to life.

Of course at 46 years of age, I suppose that my views will be radically different than most on this youth-ruled forum.

If post-grunge is bringing rock and roll back to life, then we should put it out of its misery before I hear another Nickelback song.

(IMO of course)

[HeyRiles]

Wait, so I actually dislike alternative rock, metal, and punk/hardcore punk?

Well shoot, guess I gotta stop liking Muse, Judas Priest, Senses Fail, Arctic Monkeys, MGMT, The Ramones, Megadeth, Snow Patrol, Radiohead, Franz Ferdinand, and basically every other band I've ever liked.

Looks like the only band I actually like is Toadies. Thanks for clearing that up

[DookieMan]

I'm a bit confused by some of the points you make here, but I am also annoyed when Creed is thought of as "the" grunge band. I love grunge, but I absolutely despise post-grunge.

[CheezerRox]

I find musically disinclined people a challenge, more than an annoyance. I feel the need to educate them and move on. That way they can look back and say..."Hey that guy was right ", that way instead of coming off like an "Asshat", or sounding pretentious, i can show them music that they may like in a genre, or "Feel" of music they may actually like.

Just me.

That's true. I don't know, I'm no wise man, I'm no calculative thinker, it's just that false opinions of grunge and the love of post-grunge has always annoyed me and I just thought I might as well get my opinion out there. Honestly, I do agree with the people who think it was abrasive and sloppy, but I guess I just kinda hope that that won't completely cut off what I was trying to get across.


i heard dave grohl, scientifically proven to be the only talent to come out of grunge, talked kurt "i'm so sad" cobain into killing himself just so he could fasttrack his way out of nirvana and start playing music with other real musicians.

lolgrunge

You have to be one of the most ignorant people I've ever had the displeasure of "seeing".

Jerry Cantrell, Mike McCready, Stone Gossard, Eddie Vedder, Layne Staley, Buzz Osbourne, Steve Turner, Chris Cornell, and, yes, even Kurt Cobain would all like to have a word with you.


If post-grunge is bringing rock and roll back to life, then we should put it out of its misery before I hear another Nickelback song.

(IMO of course)

QFT.

(Also IMO.)


Wait, so I actually dislike alternative rock, metal, and punk/hardcore punk?

Well shoot, guess I gotta stop liking Muse, Judas Priest, Senses Fail, Arctic Monkeys, MGMT, The Ramones, Megadeth, Snow Patrol, Radiohead, Franz Ferdinand, and basically every other band I've ever liked.

Looks like the only band I actually like is Toadies. Thanks for clearing that up

Never said that. I guess you mean you hate grunge, but that doesn't mean you hate where it came from. That's like if I said I don't like (insert genre) that I don't like anything that made it. That's ridiculous.

[CheezerRox]

If people are gonna be so pissy and this thread really bothers them that much, I'll ask a mod to close it, because I really don't want to hear it, honestly. Okay, I get it, I could have worded it better. Okay, I get it, you don't like grunge. Okay, I get it, Kurt Cobain committed suicide. Get over it. No one asked you to come to this thread, and no one asked you to be a aggressive about it.

By the way, this obviously isn't pointed at everyone who has posted in this thread, but I'm not going to name names or **** like that.

[eagles1990]

What? Superunknown not a Grunge album? 4th of July is the definition of grunge.I agree with you 100% about Post-Grunge. Nickleback and grunge shouldn't even be in the same sentence.

I'm a huge grunge fan myself

[Gowienczyk]

What? Superunknown not a Grunge album? 4th of July is the definition of grunge.I agree with you 100% about Post-Grunge. Nickleback and grunge shouldn't even be in the same sentence.

I'm a huge grunge fan myself

If you think Soundgarden wrote any grunge songs, you are sadly mistaken.

[HyeJinx1984]

I tend to like the more metally grunge myself, so I lean towards Alice in Chains.

[Onslaught_fei]

If you think Soundgarden wrote any grunge songs, you are sadly mistaken.

If you think Soundgarden didnt write any grunge songs, you are sadly mistaken. What would YOU classify as a grunge song? Try telling Soundgarden's former members they were not grunge and Im sure they'd look at you stupid, a quick interview search reveals a lot of Soundgarden and their entanglement with the grunge scene, like this short example: http://www.nyrock.com/interviews/1999/cornell_int.asp

[Gowienczyk]

If you think Soundgarden didnt write any grunge songs, you are sadly mistaken. What would YOU classify as a grunge song? Try telling Soundgarden's former members they were not grunge and Im sure they'd look at you stupid, a quick interview search reveals a lot of Soundgarden and their entanglement with the grunge scene, like this short example: http://www.nyrock.com/interviews/1999/cornell_int.asp

Soundgarden wrote stoner rock songs.

[Onslaught_fei]

Soundgarden wrote stoner rock songs.

Yeah because songs like http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fIQ3SjeScf0 (forgive the first :40 seconds and the anime) are stoner rock material and show none of the dumbed down hardcore punk and heavy metal influences that shaped and defined grunge.

[Gowienczyk]

Yeah because songs like http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fIQ3SjeScf0 (forgive the first :40 seconds and the anime) are stoner rock material and show none of the dumbed down hardcore punk and heavy metal influences that shaped and defined grunge.

Some punk leanings, but really Soundgarden were a stoner rock band. If you call them grunge; go ahead and call MOR and Kyuss grunge, too.

[Onslaught_fei]

Some punk leanings, but really Soundgarden were a stoner rock band. If you call them grunge; go ahead and call MOR and Kyuss grunge, too.

Really because I dont see the classic rock (psycadelic, acid rock, etc...) leanings that stoner rock reverbs. You still havent answered what you define grunge as, and Im gonna 1up and ask what you think the difference between stoner and grunge is. Becuase I can keep cranking out songs like http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oD6TvZuJiN8 that just ooze grunge.

[Gowienczyk]

Really because I dont see the classic rock (psycadelic, acid rock, etc...) leanings that stoner rock reverbs. You still havent answered what you define grunge as, and Im gonna 1up and ask what you think the difference between stoner and grunge is. Becuase I can keep cranking out songs like http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oD6TvZuJiN8 that just ooze grunge.

...and songs like Spoonman ooze stoner rock, so what again?

Grunge is very debatable to be a genre as it was just a label invented by sub-pop to sell records. But I see bands like Tad, Gruntruck, Skin Yard, Hammerbox, etc. grunge (if it's a genre at all) so make what assumptions you want.

[Onslaught_fei]

Opeth wrote a song called Windowpane that is 100% pure progressive rock but that doesnt stop them from being a metal band, now does it? Heres more Soundgarden, because you dont seem to be listening to anything beyond the 2-3 radio hits you may have heard: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DjHBq2EfN_E. (Still not hearing any stoner rock). Soundgarden was one of my favorite bands when I was in school, so Im quite intriqued (and you STILL havent answered) as YOUR definition of grunge versus stoner rock. And what makes Spoonman stoner rock? Drop D tuning?! Most stoner uses Drop C or Drop C#. Its original version is an acoustic song and the production techniques that were used in the studio tracks backing vocals would rarely ever be featured in a real stoner rock band, among other things. (Like pots and pans as instruments)

[Onslaught_fei]

Not familiar with Gruntruck so I just listened to this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1HZaDaJVDRw

Uh, how is that not stoner rock then?

[Gowienczyk]

I have both Badmotorfinger and Superunknown. It's four in the morning so don't get stuffy if I'm not explaining myself properly. I guess I just never digged past those two albums I have.

[Onslaught_fei]

I have both Badmotorfinger and Superunknown. It's four in the morning so don't get stuffy if I'm not explaining myself properly. I guess I just never digged past those two albums I have.

I mean thats totally cool and I absolutely respect that you dont know a band front and back because there are tens of millions of bands that I dont. But to claim Soundgarden doesnt have any grunge songs demands to be challenged, you have to understand. If Im going around with the wrong definitions of stoner rock and grunge, then I need to know. Even if someone doesnt consider "grunge" a genre but more of an umbrella term for something that is similiar in some respect (Like say the Viking Metal umbrella term), it still has a meaning of some sort. Still, I have an extremely hard time buying in that Soundgarden was not a grunge band, and I will go to bed tonight on that note, because it is still as clear as any (to me) that they were a grunge band.

[Gowienczyk]

I concede and withdraw my argument. Perhaps I should of looked into their earlier stuff, but I never have. But I do still believe the two albums I have are borderline rock (arguably stoner rock) and very influential to the stoner rock scene.

With that, I too will be withdrawing to bed soon.

[cherokeesam]

What is this "post-grunge" that everyone keeps talking about?

And how the hell do you use the band names Staind, Godsmack, Nickelback and Everclear in the same sentence? They're not even remotely alike. Godsmack and Staind are metal --- alt-metal or "nu-metal," if you want to give it one of the most humorous labels I've ever heard of. Nickelback is just pure cookie-cutter corp rock. Everclear is just straight-up alt rock, edging into hard rock territory.

I wouldn't even dream of attaching the word "grunge," even with a "post-" prefix, to any of their music.

Grunge is about a place and time in music, not a specific sound. As several posters have pointed out, Seattle's Big Four (Nirvana, Pearl Jam, Soundgarden, Alice) plus San Diego's STP -- the "classic" grunge bands -- didn't have similar sounds at all. Instead, grunge was a fashion & genre statement that rejected the excess and hedonism and glam affectations of 80s hair bands and the leather 'n' studs of classic heavy metal.

Grunge was just a way in the early 90s of saying if you wanna rock hard, but you think hair bands and metalheads are a joke, then we've got your slice of pie right here.

[Lolicat]

Grunge is about a place and time in music, not a specific sound. As several posters have pointed out, Seattle's Big Four (Nirvana, Pearl Jam, Soundgarden, Alice) plus San Diego's STP -- the "classic" grunge bands -- didn't have similar sounds at all. Instead, grunge was a fashion & genre statement that rejected the excess and hedonism and glam affectations of 80s hair bands and the leather 'n' studs of classic heavy metal.

Grunge was just a way in the early 90s of saying if you wanna rock hard, but you think hair bands and metalheads are a joke, then we've got your slice of pie right here.

I mean you can see the influence of grunge bands in other artists of the period who aren't actually grunge themselves, but resided in the Seatte area. L7, the Gits and 7 Year ***** all took some of the elements you hear in grunge artists but did not play grunge.
The fashion thing was when it got co-opted and paraded around MTV like a prostitute, mainly. They just took the unpretentious way that people dressed and made it into something.

[warthogdb]

I mean you can see the influence of grunge bands in other artists of the period who aren't actually grunge themselves, but resided in the Seatte area. L7, the Gits and 7 Year ***** all took some of the elements you hear in grunge artists but did not play grunge.
The fashion thing was when it got co-opted and paraded around MTV like a prostitute, mainly. They just took the unpretentious way that people dressed and made it into something.

Is calculated "unpretentious" just another way of being pretentious? It's not for me to decide what fashion statement is better than another but the look that these bands had was an intentional fashion statement.

[Lolicat]

Is calculated "unpretentious" just another way of being pretentious? It's not for me to decide what fashion statement is better than another but the look that these bands had was an intentional fashion statement.

Of course it's being pretentious, but I don't think the bands in the Seattle scene saw it as a way of being cool for the most part, not until it became cool. It really just seemed a comfort thing.

[FlameSama1]

Post-grunge is the red-headed step-child of grunge that was never meant to be, and never should have been. Nickelback and Staind and Godsmack and Everclear and others are all CORPORATE ROCK BANDS. That's not grunge.

QFT, but the rest I don't agree with.

[King_Nuthin]

A band in San Diego wearing flannel is making a calculated fashion statement. A band in the PacNW not so much.

[Rockbandfan23467]

Actually, I personally think the Big Four of Grunge and STP do sound similar to some degree, but you know me, the most hated regular and all.

[King_Nuthin]

Actually, I personally think the Big Four of Grunge and STP do sound similar to some degree, but you know me, the most hated regular and all.
I'll say that when they first broke out with Plush and a few other early singles STP sounded a hell of a lot like Pearl Jam and I don't think there was anything coincidental about it.

[ArmsAreLoud]

I'm a huge grunge fan (I also happen to like post-grunge, which is NOT Godsmack, it's bands like Creed and Alter Bridge), and as far as I can tell the only real connections that can be drawn between them are these:

1. More focus on riffs rather than shredding. Grunge bands, for the most part, only solo'd when it fit with the direction they were taking with the song. Kim Thayil epitomized this as one of the premier riffers (if that is even a word) in the industry.
2. Lyrics are emotionally inclined to anger-no, not heavy metal anger, the anger that you feel when your daddy gets drunk, beats your mom, then throws the bottle at you. Pearl Jam's music is a great example of this, but the other bands were definitely inclined to write lyrics like this.

...And that's it. Other than that, grunge is all over the place as to individual styles.

[cherokeesam]

A band in San Diego wearing flannel is making a calculated fashion statement. A band in the PacNW not so much.


And that's exactly what they said about STP when they first broke big. I still like STP and all, but they definitely got their start as shameless ripoffs of Pearl Jam. When "Plush" first started airing, everyone assumed it WAS Pearl Jam, and then when Weyland showed up in the video as a Vedder clone, that just drove the point home. If STP hadn't found their own voice on their next (and best) album, Purple, the band would have died and forever be remembered (if at all) as just a pale Southern California imitation of the Seattle scene.

[Onslaught_fei]

I personally really really really like Core.

[cherokeesam]

I personally really really really like Core.

I like Core, too. But it's derivative as the day is long. Purple is when STP really broke out and did their own thing, and could no longer be accused of ripping off PJ and Nirvana. Big Empty, Vasoline, Interstate Love Song, Unglued, Army Ants --- those are unique and brilliant songs.

[Onslaught_fei]

I like Core, too. But it's derivative as the day is long. Purple is when STP really broke out and did their own thing, and could no longer be accused of ripping off PJ and Nirvana. Big Empty, Vasoline, Interstate Love Song, Unglued, Army Ants --- those are unique and brilliant songs.

You know. Hypothetically speaking if I was in a band and made music I would be eccstatic if everyone called my band was a Coroner ripoff. I like to wear my musical influences proudly, but that just might be a trait of some types of metal.

Side note, saw STP last summer (with Coheed and Cambria... Im not a fan btw) and they tore it up. Was good stuff.

[Lolicat]

You know. Hypothetically speaking if I was in a band and made music I would be eccstatic if everyone called my band was a Coroner ripoff. I like to wear my musical influences proudly, but that just might be a trait of some types of metal.

People want to be more than the sum of the parts, you know? I'm not sure whether ambition is a good thing myself.

[bmaninc]

I don't see the point of this.

Wanna get into a metal debate?

Black metal, thrash metal, speed metal, etc...

[Onslaught_fei]

I don't see the point of this.

Wanna get into a metal debate?

Black metal, thrash metal, speed metal, etc...

The metal debate is super easy though. Super fast summary: There was heavy metal. Some made it faster (speed metal) some made it slower (doom metal). Speed metal split into thrash metal and power metal. Doom metal didnt die like speed metal but did but spin its own share of hybrids and unique brands (sludge, drone, funeral, etc). The pioneers of thrash metal also inspired black and death metal. Power metal also helped launch folk and symphonic metal.

The metal debate is one Ive seen since I first started getting on newsgroups, IRC, and BBS's back in the mid/late 90s. Ive watched it evolve, seen terminology die (atmospheric metal, epic metal, math metal, true metal, future metal) and consider myself fairly knowledgable on the subject.

Its actually a little bit more complicated and many trees are entertwined (and **** tons of hybrid/fusion) but metal has a fair share of bands that come out and say **** like "We are black metal. We are power metal. We are death metal." There are some bands that are just extreme metal, fusing multiple genre elements on the same album and often times in the same 9 or 10 minute song. (Agallochs blend of progressive, black, folk, and doom metal / Wintersuns blend of folk, black, power, and death metal / Nevermores blend of speed, progressive, power, thrash metal)

[Runesmith]

Now, moving on to more recently, just because a genre has grunge in it doesn't mean it IS grunge. That's right people, I'm talking about post-grunge, that poppy alternative/hard rock we all hate. Okay, so the bands labeled as such listened to Nevermind, DOESN'T MEAN THEY'RE GRUNGE. Post-grunge is the red-headed step-child of grunge that was never meant to be, and never should have been. Nickelback and Staind and Godsmack and Everclear and others are all CORPORATE ROCK BANDS. That's not grunge.

There is no way in hell anyone could convince me that Everclear is a corporate rock band. That's really the only issue I take with the OP.

[CheezerRox]

What? Superunknown not a Grunge album? 4th of July is the definition of grunge.I agree with you 100% about Post-Grunge. Nickleback and grunge shouldn't even be in the same sentence.

I'm a huge grunge fan myself

Okay, I do have to say, "4th of July" does have a grunge-vibe, but that's only one song.


I tend to like the more metally grunge myself, so I lean towards Alice in Chains.

That's kewl, man. Alice in Chains is great and everyone likes their own stuff.


There is no way in hell anyone could convince me that Everclear is a corporate rock band. That's really the only issue I take with the OP.

I don't know, I used to have one of their records, and everything just struck me as regular old 90's poppy alternative band. Nothing sepcial, nothing new. They just struck me as corporate. I mean, I could be wrong of course, considering I don't know too much about them.

[Runesmith]

I don't know, I used to have one of their records, and everything just struck me as regular old 90's poppy alternative band. Nothing sepcial, nothing new. They just struck me as corporate. I mean, I could be wrong of course, considering I don't know too much about them.

This is pretty far from corp-rock. :p
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qAh5esiyQ8I


Soundwise, I guess I could see where you're coming from with a few of their poppier tunes, but certainly not lyrically. Considering the awful childhood Art (the singer) had experienced, the band has a lot more credibility than your average post-grunge group.

[CheezerRox]

This is pretty far from corp-rock. :p
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qAh5esiyQ8I


Soundwise, I guess I could see where you're coming from with a few of their poppier tunes, but certainly not lyrically. Considering the awful childhood Art (the singer) had experienced, the band has a lot more credibility than your average post-grunge group.

Wow, that is a pretty good song, I do have to say.

But yeah, I had the one with that one hit they had "I Will Buy You a New Life"? But I did know that Art had a real tough life with everything that happened, so I do at least respect him as a person unlike Sully Erna (or whatever his last name is) and Chad Kroeger.

[Gowienczyk]

Another good Everclear song is So Much For The Afterglow, so much Beach Boys influence in that one. <3

[Ultimatum]

The only definition of music that I've actually found that works is "sound in time". It's from a ****ty teaching company DVD that supposedly explored music. It was quite possibly the worst excuse for a course I've ever seen, but that was the one thing that gave me some respect for the guy doing it.

My college-level course had the same definition, and we didn't have the same system.

[Ultimatum]

Everclear is Post-Grunge?

Seems I've found a Post-Grunge band I actually like.

[Gowienczyk]

Everclear is Post-Grunge?

Seems I've found a Post-Grunge band I actually like.

No, Everclear is a 90s rock band. Not post-grunge at all.

[Ultimatum]

Alrighty then.

[Onslaught_fei]

Hypothetically speaking, what if post-grunge bands never gained any commercial success or airplay? I cannot think of many non-commercially exposed genres of music that do not suffer a backlash, although I can think of a few (deathcore).

[Gowienczyk]

Hypothetically speaking, what if post-grunge bands never gained any commercial success or airplay? I cannot think of many non-commercially exposed genres of music that do not suffer a backlash, although I can think of a few (deathcore).

We would have something possibly just as dull for mainstream rock music?

[Onslaught_fei]

We would have something possibly just as dull for mainstream rock music?

What would it be? Where would post-grunge be in the eyes of rock music enthusiasts? Puddle of Mudd, Seether, Shinedown, and whatever else one wants to lump in with the post nominer (Audioslave? Nickelback? Creed? Staind?) never took off, releasing albums but never making videos, getting radio play, or breaching the billboard top 100. They just stick to playing local shows and touring supporting bands.

[Gowienczyk]

What would it be? Where would post-grunge be in the eyes of rock music enthusiasts? Puddle of Mudd, Shinedown, and whatever else one wants to lump in with the post nominer (Audioslave? Nickelback? Creed? Staind?) never took off, releasing albums but never making videos, getting radio play, or breaching the billboard top 100. They just stick to playing local shows and touring supporting bands.

I don't think they would be liked by many and as far as level of criticism, I find it to be low. Possibly, anyway.

But to consider what would replace it. What else was popular in the 90s and could be used as a crutch for post-grunges former spot of popularity.

[Onslaught_fei]

I don't think they would be liked by many and as far as level of criticism, I find it to be low. Possibly, anyway.

But to consider what would replace it. What else was popular in the 90s and could be used as a crutch for post-grunges former spot of popularity.

I dont know. Ska, britpop, alternative-esque bands, post-punk, Metallica's hard rock, RHCP, Foo Fighters, numetal started getting big, post-thrash, Blink 182s, industrial.

My problem with post-grunge is I dont like the "hur hur hur" group of people that are overexposed to it. I think most of the bands are fine but are generally warped and prostituted by the big 4, directing influence on the radio digestable sound thats been maintained. I cant stand a lot of that kind of music simply by association of the lowest common denominator. Im pretty shallow about it, but I generally hate chordy music regardless.

[Lolicat]

Personally I think the probability of post-grunge's dominance was so huge as to be practically inevitable at that point.

[Coolbutlame]

i have to agree with you on the Ten and everclear points, but nevermind not being grunge?

firstly, you've got come as you are and smells like teen spirit being borderline metal tracks. secondly, there's stuff like breed, which in itself could be considered punk. and then you've got polly, which is almost an emo track. that makes my oppinion on that stated.

[Lolicat]

firstly, you've got come as you are and smells like teen spirit being borderline metal tracks. secondly, there's stuff like breed, which in itself could be considered punk. and then you've got polly, which is almost an emo track. that makes my oppinion on that stated.

What?:confused:

[Gowienczyk]

i have to agree with you on the Ten and everclear points, but nevermind not being grunge?

firstly, you've got come as you are and smells like teen spirit being borderline metal tracks. secondly, there's stuff like breed, which in itself could be considered punk. and then you've got polly, which is almost an emo track. that makes my oppinion on that stated.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

No.

[Onslaught_fei]

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

No.

Hey now, be nice! Hes almost precious how he thinks SLTS is almost metal. Isnt it cute? ;p

[afterstasis]

i have to agree with you on the Ten and everclear points, but nevermind not being grunge?

firstly, you've got come as you are and smells like teen spirit being borderline metal tracks. secondly, there's stuff like breed, which in itself could be considered punk. and then you've got polly, which is almost an emo track. that makes my oppinion on that stated.

i'm glad this thread finally hit it's stride.

[CheezerRox]

i have to agree with you on the Ten and everclear points, but nevermind not being grunge?

firstly, you've got come as you are and smells like teen spirit being borderline metal tracks. secondly, there's stuff like breed, which in itself could be considered punk. and then you've got polly, which is almost an emo track. that makes my oppinion on that stated.

...Dear Lord...

I guess I'll try to be nice and not flame.

Okay, first, "Smells Like Teen Spirit" is pretty much just over-produced grunge. It's got all the rigt stuff in there, just too much production. It's DEFINATELY not borderline metal. "Come As You Are" is barely even alternative rock, letalone grunge or metal. "Breed" I agree with you on, that's definately a punk track, but "Polly" emo? Couldn't be more wrong unless you called it death metal. It's a folk song.

[Bub]

Nirvana's true "grunge" sounding material all comes from "Bleach" in my opinion. "Nevermind" and "In Utero" are more alternative than grunge because "Bleach" has more fast-paced heavier songs that really in my opinion define the true "grunge" sound. The same goes for the "Insecticide" compilation also.

[ArmsAreLoud]

..."Grunge" is an umbrella term for three very different and yet somehow similar styles: there's Nirvana-grunge, Pearl Jam-grunge, and Soundgarden-grunge. That's pretty much it.

Also, Creed is awesome if you dig into their heavier, less commercial stuff. I've kind of decided that post-grunge bands are really just good bands who let the record companies have too much power over them.

[Onslaught_fei]

..."Grunge" is an umbrella term for three very different and yet somehow similar styles: there's Nirvana-grunge, Pearl Jam-grunge, and Soundgarden-grunge. That's pretty much it.

Also, Creed is awesome if you dig into their heavier, less commercial stuff. I've kind of decided that post-grunge bands are really just good bands who let the record companies have too much power over them.

Where do I stick Mudhoney, Alice in Chains, Green River, and Skin Yard?

[Lolicat]

Where do I stick Mudhoney, Alice in Chains, Green River, and Skin Yard?

Mudhoney grunge, Alice in Chains grunge, Green River grunge and Skin Yard grunge, by the logic of that post.

[Onslaught_fei]

Mudhoney grunge, Alice in Chains grunge, Green River grunge and Skin Yard grunge, by the logic of that post.

Got it. Now can I get a tree so I can visualize how the scene developed as each band competed to sound like their own band? Or did Layne Staley call up Kurt Cobain and ask "Yeah we wanna stick to grunge rock style, how can we sound EXACTLY like your next album. We dont wanna confuse anyone by making original sounding brand of Seattle music."

[Gowienczyk]

I always felt Green River was just a punk band that influenced grunge and (well it's members) went on to do better things.

[ArmsAreLoud]

Where do I stick Mudhoney, Alice in Chains, Green River, and Skin Yard?

AiC, Green River, and Skin Yard are all the classic metal influenced bands, so they're under Soundgarden-grunge. Not sure about Mudhoney, haven't listened to much of them. Really, it's all about influences, but I didn't feel like posting much.

@Above Poster: Rehab Doll does not sound like punk in any meaning of the word.

[Gowienczyk]

AiC, Green River, and Skin Yard are all the classic metal influenced bands, so they're under Soundgarden-grunge. Not sure about Mudhoney, haven't listened to much of them. Really, it's all about influences, but I didn't feel like posting much.

Green River has absolutely minor (if any) metal influence. have you even listened to a Green River record? Probably not.

[ArmsAreLoud]

Listened to Rehab Doll, and from that, they're not punk either. So... we're both wrong?

[Onslaught_fei]

Listened to Rehab Doll, and from that, they're not punk either. So... we're both wrong?

Maybe theyre grunge. I dunno, just guessing here.

[Rockbandfan23467]

But of course, the best Grunge band is Led Zeppelin. (http://forum.guitarherogame.com/Default.aspx?g=posts&t=30195)

[supernova1324]

But of course, the best Grunge band is Led Zeppelin. (http://forum.guitarherogame.com/Default.aspx?g=posts&t=30195)

The stupidity in that thread was overwhelming.

"The whole Grunge fad was just a bunch of guys from Seattle who dress like lumberjacks and play their guitars really loud. "
This is going in the stupid things thread.

[Onslaught_fei]

But of course, the best Grunge band is Led Zeppelin. (http://forum.guitarherogame.com/Default.aspx?g=posts&t=30195)

MAN I FEEL STUPID after reading through that. You have stereotypical "doesnt know **** about music but yammers the **** on about punk" kid and the equally dumb "all music is about how hard the guitar playing is so metal is the bestest".

[supernova1324]

MAN I FEEL STUPID after reading through that. You have stereotypical "doesnt know **** about music but yammers the **** on about punk" kid and the equally dumb "all music is about how hard the guitar playing is so metal is the bestest".
So I wasn't the only one who was annoyed...

[CheezerRox]

But of course, the best Grunge band is Led Zeppelin. (http://forum.guitarherogame.com/Default.aspx?g=posts&t=30195)

That made me die a little inside.

[eagles1990]

Soundgarden wrote stoner rock songs.

HA. That made me laugh......

[CheezerRox]

HA. That made me laugh......

I actually agree with him.

[Onslaught_fei]

I actually agree with him.

And that is why you fail.

[Gowienczyk]

And that is why you fail.

You could agree that they wrote a decent catalog of songs that helped influence the stoner rock scene at the very least, right? I mean yeah, I realize now not all of their material was like that, but hey, I admitted defeat.

[CheezerRox]

And that is why you fail.

Yes, it's true, because I disagree with your opinion I fail.

Really, Superunknown is pretty stoner rock/metal. It's sure as Hell not grunge, I know that. It's hard/heavy-ish, psychedelic, alternative, it all fits in.

[Rockbandfan23467]

Post Grunge is Grunge in name only.

[Onslaught_fei]

Yes, it's true, because I disagree with your opinion I fail.

Really, Superunknown is pretty stoner rock/metal. It's sure as Hell not grunge, I know that. It's hard/heavy-ish, psychedelic, alternative, it all fits in.

Yeah, Superunknown shed a lot of the punk influences from the first 3 albums. However, if you listened to some of the stuff I listed earlier you will realize that songs like Ty Cobb from their 5th album showcased a lot of punk. Biggest problem with Superunknown though is it does not share even the same tuning as stoner rock guitar utilizes. Standard C is different from Drop C#. Again, you are agreeing with the "All Soundgarden ever wrote was stoner" songs and yet, they only have 1 album that is the anomaly with minimalistic alternative/punk leanings and a heavier hard rock stance, and even then it doesnt breach stoner rock material. You cannot ignore 80% of a bands material for your statement. It is not an opinion.

[CheezerRox]

Post Grunge is Grunge in name only.

Agreed.


Yeah, Superunknown shed a lot of the punk influences from the first 3 albums. However, if you listened to some of the stuff I listed earlier you will realize that songs like Ty Cobb from their 5th album showcased a lot of punk. Biggest problem with Superunknown though is it does not share even the same tuning as stoner rock guitar utilizes. Standard C is different from Drop C#. Again, you are agreeing with the "All Soundgarden ever wrote was stoner" songs and yet, they only have 1 album that is the anomaly with minimalistic alternative/punk leanings and a heavier hard rock stance, and even then it doesnt breach stoner rock material. You cannot ignore 80% of a bands material for your statement. It is not an opinion.

Okay, well I was talking about Superunknown. And I did have Badmotorfinger a while ago (stopped working) and that had more punk influence, and a Hell of a lot more metal. But it wasn't much more punk, and it still had stoner qualities.

Now, since I'm missing out on their earlier material, it could sound like ****ing Black Flag for all I know, but as far as the Soundgarden material I've heard, it's very stoner rock/metal.

P.S. I really doubt that the tuning of an instrument has much to do with the defining of the genre. It's like saying that lyrics help describe a genre. I mean, lyrics usually compliment the genre, but they don't define it.

[Gowienczyk]

Tuning does help defining a genre, but it's not the end be all for the definition.

[Onslaught_fei]

P.S. I really doubt that the tuning of an instrument has much to do with the defining of the genre. It's like saying that lyrics help describe a genre. I mean, lyrics usually compliment the genre, but they don't define it.

Really? I mean, death metal was born out of both lyrical content and guitar tuning alone. Melodic death metal will use some D standard and drop D. Brutal death will use some Drop A tuning and nothing except gorey lyrics. Blackened Death metal has satanic lyrics.

[Gowienczyk]

Lyrical Themes only help a movement and are yeah, are common in genres but they NEVER define genres as genres are SOUNDS not words.

[Onslaught_fei]

Lyrical Themes only help a movement and are yeah, are common in genres but they NEVER define genres as genres are SOUNDS not words.

I mean, I mostly agree with you but look at bands like Cradle of Filth. For a long time they were confused with some black metal acts ever since Total ****ing Darkness was released although their lyrical content was far from "Satanic". Its been debated so much that the band and black metal fans alike refuse to refer to them as black metal despite musical similarities to many 3rd wave black metal acts.

[Gowienczyk]

I mean, I mostly agree with you but look at bands like Cradle of Filth. For a long time they were confused with some black metal acts ever since Total ****ing Darkness was released although their lyrical content was far from "Satanic". Its been debated so much that the band and black metal fans alike refuse to refer to them as black metal despite musical similarities to many 3rd wave black metal acts.

1) The majority of black metal fans are racist, narrow-minded idealists.

2) Black Metal (movement) was formed alongside the music development, so the two are often connected; but you have some black metal (music style) bands that base lyricsm and imagery on christianity and nature for instance.

3) A mainstream band playing a genre but the fans denying it? Where have I heard this before....

[Onslaught_fei]

1) The majority of black metal fans are racist, narrow-minded idealists.

2) Black Metal (movement) was formed alongside the music development, so the two are often connected; but you have some black metal (music style) bands that base lyricsm and imagery on christianity and nature for instance.

3) A mainstream band playing a genre but the fans denying it? Where have I heard this before....

But despite the fact that no one in the metal world, including the band themselves, consider themselves a black metal act. The same thing almost happened to Dimmu Borgir recently. Despite most Americans considering Dimmu a black metal act, the band themselves and other Norweigan Black Metal fans have claimed to not be black metal.

[Ultimatum]

Really? I mean, death metal was born out of both lyrical content and guitar tuning alone. Melodic death metal will use some D standard and drop D. Brutal death will use some Drop A tuning and nothing except gorey lyrics. Blackened Death metal has satanic lyrics.

I've heard that a lot of Melodic DM uses Maiden-esque Guitar harmonies, I don't like too much of it outside of early AtG and Carcass, so I won't be shocked if I'm flat-out wrong.

[Gowienczyk]

But despite the fact that no one in the metal world, including the band themselves, consider themselves a black metal act. The same thing almost happened to Dimmu Borgir recently. Despite most Americans considering Dimmu a black metal act, the band themselves and other Norweigan Black Metal fans have claimed to not be black metal.

Oh definitely; aren't DB and CoF mostly gothic metal/symphonic metal, anyway for the most part?

[Onslaught_fei]

I've heard that a lot of Melodic DM uses Maiden-esque Guitar harmonies, I don't like too much of it outside of early AtG and Carcass, so I won't be shocked if I'm flat-out wrong.

Yes they take the same style of melodic riffs you heard in Iron Maiden, Judas Priest, or other nwobhm metal acts and drop it a notch and play it faster. You dont get quite the Necrophagist, Atheist, or Cynic style of harmonies and guitar melodies but you do get a level right below that.

[Onslaught_fei]

Oh definitely; aren't DB and CoF mostly gothic metal/symphonic metal, anyway for the most part?

Recently they have. Dimmu's first 5 albums had no hint of gothic and very little symphonic elements. It was with Puritanical Euphoric Misanthropia that they added the orchestrated stuff.

[Gowienczyk]

Thought so.

[Rockbandfan23467]

Are Genres fact or opinion? Or are they both?

[Gowienczyk]

A little of both: Genres are based on factual evidence, but they are partially based on subjective opinion. It's just people seem to think the subjective part is more relevant than it really is.

[Onslaught_fei]

About as much fact as Taco Bell selling Mexican food.

[My name is Fez]

A little of both: Genres are based on factual evidence, but they are partially based on subjective opinion. It's just people seem to think the subjective part is more relevant than it really is.

Either that or people just have no clue wtf a genre really is.

And that's how the "Led Zeppelin is grunge" joke is born.

[Gowienczyk]

About as much fact as Taco Bell selling Mexican food.

Well, I wouldn't say it's THAT bad.

[Rockbandfan23467]

Either that or people just have no clue wtf a genre really is.

And that's how the "Led Zeppelin is grunge" joke is born.

Don't forget "Bob Dylan and Woody Guithrie are Punk"!

[Onslaught_fei]

Well, I wouldn't say it's THAT bad.

Yeah its not. Im just more of a devil's advocate than anything.

[Gowienczyk]

Yeah its not. Im just more of a devil's advocate than anything.

Cute.

[My name is Fez]

Yeah its not. Im just more of a devil's advocate than anything.

Isn't part of a devil's advocate position to be explaining the opposite side and not just saying "LOL NO"? XD

[Onslaught_fei]

Isn't part of a devil's advocate position to be explaining the opposite side and not just saying "LOL NO"? XD

Really, I think I do a pretty good job of conveying whatever side of the debate Im pushing.