Could Rock Band suffer from the Activision/Vivendi merger?

[Amish Robot]

Now that Activision is merging with Vivendi, and considering that Universal Music Group is a subsidiary of Vivendi, it's possible this might cause problems down the road in getting artists signed to Universal-owned labels licensed for Rock Band. Here's a quote from the soon-to-be new CEO of Activision Blizzard:


“This transaction also provides a unique relationship with Universal Music Group – the world’s largest music company – which will benefit Guitar Hero and further extend our sizable leadership position in music-based games.”

Uni is the largest of the big four, and this could affect a huge chunk of Harmonix's options in getting songs (either from exclusivity to Activision or higher licensing fees). Just a few of the labels under their umbrella are A&M, Geffen, Interscope, Island, Mercury, Sanctuary, and a ton of indies owned or distributed by those.

Expect much MBA-speak about synergies, and how they are being leveraged. Conspiracy theories ahoy!

[Credge]

No. MTV is incredibly large and almost every popular Vivendi artist has constant air time on MTV. Both have equal push power.

[davidshek]

No. MTV is incredibly large and almost every popular Vivendi artist has constant air time on MTV. Both have equal push power.

What's this? Musicians/bands get air time on MTV? Since when? 1995?

MTV doesn't play music anymore, except for those brief little 30-second clips in between their various and numerous reality shows.

MTV2 was created to be the music channel once MTV stopped playing videos, but now MTV2 doesn't show them anymore either :(

[Amish Robot]

No. MTV is incredibly large and almost every popular Vivendi artist has constant air time on MTV. Both have equal push power.

I don't really even think myself that they'd get shut out, especially if the game's successful since that would be money on the table. But Activision's going to have a much easier time getting a lot of big-name bands, and I could definitely see some minor exclusivity, especially with newer acts being pushed by the labels.

Then again, I could also see some clueless suit thinking he's setting himself up for the corner office with his big Gwen Stefani cross-promotion plans for GH4. :D

[CyN1caL]

What's this? Musicians/bands get air time on MTV? Since when? 1995?

MTV doesn't play music anymore, except for those brief little 30-second clips in between their various and numerous reality shows.

MTV2 was created to be the music channel once MTV stopped playing videos, but now MTV2 doesn't show them anymore either :(

There's a MTV3 now.

And in some places, there's a MTV channel for each type of music.

So those show music videos... for now at least.

[HPLabonte]

There's a MTV3 now.

And in some places, there's a MTV channel for each type of music.

So those show music videos... for now at least.

yeah, I get that on FiOS...

They also own VH1/Classic, and CMT, so they have a wide variety of music available to them.

[Kylekillgannon]

My quetion is, what's Activision going to do with all the non-metal/hard rock/crap they suck up?

[SoulScreme]

I doubt that this doomsday scenario will occur. You see, the FTC law regarding monopolization would threaten them dearly if they attempted this. It would be an extremely tight coupling between two subsidiaries. American antitrust laws specifically prohibit the practice of "refusal to deal." I am having trouble finding the American wording, however the Australian wording for the law says:

Agreements involving competitors that involve restricting the supply of goods are prohibited if they have the purpose or effect of substantially lessening competition in a market in which the businesses operate.

The American wording should be similar, if not more restrictive. Considering that such an act would need to be approved by the governments of every territory in which Guitar Hero and Rock Band are sold, I would highly doubt that a pure ban or even a relative pricing scheme would be attempted.

[KingColon]

Sizable leadership position..?

[Magnet]

I think the worst that can come from this is some Guitar Hero exclusives, which is the last thing the franchise has left to cling to now. From an interview (http://multiplayerblog.mtv.com/2007/11/05/rock-band-audio-director-on-master-tapes-bumping-into-guitar-hero-iii-and-dlc-part-2-of-2/#more-1520) with a Harmonix employee...


According to Brosius, there were only one or two instances where “Rock Band” couldn’t get a song due to “Guitar Hero III.” “There were cases where if one company did a special deal where an artist was a spokesperson for their game, it would be inappropriate for them to be in the other game,” he said, without naming specifics. “There was a case early on [involving] a deal with a record label where a song was exclusive to one game or the other. But of all the songs, there were only like two cases, and it’s a resolved thing. It doesn’t really happen any more, and that’s how we want it. We don’t want to close things off and try to take control of something. As long as the bands are cool with having their song on both games, we’re cool with it too.”

I wish these lines: "But of all the songs, there were only like two cases, and it’s a resolved thing. It doesn’t really happen any more, and that’s how we want it" were more clear. What does he mean by "resolved" exactly? And this was all before this merger, so it may no longer be relevant.

After the apparent GnR and RATM exclusivities with GH3, I would not find it surprising at all for Activision to vigorously pursue exclusive songs and bands for the franchise in the future. It's sad that this is probably going to end up happening, but that's all Activision really has up its sleeve for Guitar Hero now beyond clinging to the franchise name.

[Quinarvy]

We also must take into account who owns Harmonix and publishes Rock Band...MTV.

Universal Music Group: Rock Band is denied our tracks, we will only give tracks to Guitar Hero.

MTV: Fine, no more Kanye, Fall Out Boy, Jay-Z, Killers, Maroon 5, etc. on MTV.

Universal Music Group: Um, did we say no tracks for Rock Band??? We meant we'll give you what you want!

And when UMG agreed to supply RB with tracks, I doubt there was no paper work involved.

[SoulScreme]

We also must take into account who owns Harmonix and publishes Rock Band...MTV.

Universal Music Group: Rock Band is denied our tracks, we will only give tracks to Guitar Hero.

MTV: Fine, no more Kanye, Fall Out Boy, Jay-Z, Killers, Maroon 5, etc. on MTV.

Universal Music Group: Um, did we say no tracks for Rock Band??? We meant we'll give you what you want!

And when UMG agreed to supply RB with tracks, I doubt there was no paper work involved.

Trust me, the antitrust issue is more of a problem. If that happens..

Universal Music Group: Ok, we'll put all of our videos on Fuse.

MTV: Umm, well, fine, we don't even really like music videos anymore anyway! (Exec blows raspberries)

[Quinarvy]

Trust me, the antitrust issue is more of a problem. If that happens..

Universal Music Group: Ok, we'll put all of our videos on Fuse.

MTV: Umm, well, fine, we don't even really like music videos anymore anyway! (Exec blows raspberries)

Here is where I'd see MTV just buy Fuse.

There was a saying on these boards awhile ago as to why GH3 didn't get master tracks by artists RB had masters from.

"If Activision asks for tracks, you negotiate with them. If MTV asks for tracks, you give it to them."

[Amish Robot]

Originally Posted by SoulScreme View Post
Trust me, the antitrust issue is more of a problem. If that happens..

Universal Music Group: Ok, we'll put all of our videos on Fuse.

MTV: Umm, well, fine, we don't even really like music videos anymore anyway! (Exec blows raspberries)Here is where I'd see MTV just buy Fuse.

There was a saying on these boards awhile ago as to why GH3 didn't get master tracks by artists RB had masters from.

"If Activision asks for tracks, you negotiate with them. If MTV asks for tracks, you give it to them."

Antitrust issues did cross my mind, but I don't know enough about the laws to comment without being completely full of it. And considering the recording industry are kings of creative financing, I'm sure they're already looking for a way to classify all licensing revenue as losses so they can charge them back to the bands.

The MTV quote actually surprises me a bit. I wouldn't think they still have that much clout regarding anything but hip hop or teenybopper music. But then I didn't realize they had so many secondary channels. The only ones I get are the main one (24/7 reality shows & Axe body spray commercials), MTV2 (24/7 hip hop & Axe body spray commercials), MTV Jams (24/7 hip hop & Axe body spray commercials), & MTV Latin (Never watched it, but I'm sure it has Axe body spray commercials).

[logicalnoise]

or everyone could just watch IMF a much better music network.

[Amish Robot]

More grist for the mill, courtesy of Newsweek (http://blog.newsweek.com/blogs/levelup/archive/2007/12/02/monday-morning-quarterback-on-the-vivendi-activision-merger.aspx)...

N'Gai Croal:

This may lead to some big Guitar Hero expansions, and I wonder how long it is until UMG considers pulling music out of Rock Band.

Geoff Keighley:

I don't think that Universal Music Group will pull out of Rock Band. It's possible, but then Harmonix-MTV-EA could retaliate by pulling its patent licensing agreement which allows Red Octane and Activision to publish Guitar Hero games, and who wins then?

Interesting. I've never heard anything about patent licensing to RO. I assumed they held all the patents. It makes sense, though, that RO has the hardware patents and HMX has the game engine patents.

[davidshek]

After the apparent GnR and RATM exclusivities with GH3, I would not find it surprising at all for Activision to vigorously pursue exclusive songs and bands for the franchise in the future. It's sad that this is probably going to end up happening, but that's all Activision really has up its sleeve for Guitar Hero now beyond clinging to the franchise name.

There was no GnR and RATM exclusivity in GH3. Remember, there were songs from both bands in GH2 as well(Sweet Child, Killing in the Name of), the game made by the creators of RB :)

Slash doesn't own the rights to GnR. Axl does. So Slash being in GH3 has nothing to do with GnR doing anything with that game or with any other. RATM doesn't exist anymore. I dunno who owns the rights for Rage music, but somehow I doubt it's Morello (at least not exclusively...if he does, he probably shares them with de la Rocha).

Also, it should be noted that there is such a thing as a 'non-exclusive license'. We have used it several times to have some of our songs on compilation CD's, in movies, that sort of thing. It means that they are allowed to use our song, but we can still use it for other projects as well. I wouldn't be surprised if that's the same sort of license used to put songs in this game.

Edit: Ok, so RATM played a few shows this year. But for all intents and purposes, they broke up in 2000. :-P

[Tagsrover]

What's this? Musicians/bands get air time on MTV? Since when? 1995?

MTV doesn't play music anymore, except for those brief little 30-second clips in between their various and numerous reality shows.

MTV2 was created to be the music channel once MTV stopped playing videos, but now MTV2 doesn't show them anymore either :(

MTV 4 HAHAHAHA

[davidshek]

MTV 4 HAHAHAHA

Jsut like ESPN8, The Ocho! "If it's almost a sport, we've got it!"

MTV4, The Quatro! "If it's almost music, we've got it!" :D

[Bluvox]

I believe that MTV is owned by CBS (or the same parent company, at the least). CBS Radio has over 150 stations nation-wide.

So I'd think it would be equal footing between the two. And the biggest deal is that even very established artists want to get their music out virally because of the decreased overall cost. Remember that Sting song that was in a Jaguar commercial? It was as much an advertisement for Sting's new album as it was for the new Jaguar.

[metalkorn]

RATM doesn't exist anymore.

Ummm, yes they do. They are doing a tour in Australia/New Zealand in January as part of a music festival....

http://www.bigdayout.com/lineup/artists.php

[Eman311]

No .

[Bluvox]

I believe that MTV is owned by CBS (or the same parent company, at the least). CBS Radio has over 150 stations nation-wide.


To correct myself, they WERE the same company - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viacom

Although, both companies have shareholders from National Amusements... and -



* Film Production and Distribution: Viacom International, Paramount Pictures, DreamWorks, Republic Pictures, MTV Films, Nickelodeon Movies, Go Fish Pictures
* Television Networks: Comedy Central, Logo, BET, Spike, TV Land, Nick at Nite, Nickelodeon, Noggin, The N, Nick Jr., TEENick, MTV, VH1, MTV2, CMT, MHD
* Television Production and Television Distribution: DreamWorks Television
* Video Gaming: Xfire, Harmonix, GameTrailers, Neopets
* Internet Sites: Screwattack


Could you imagine the loss in revenue from major films and TV shows being pulled from Universal because of a lockup between the two companies? There's a lot more than just a music game that's involved in the dealings, and I'd bet that the Blizzard stooge that made that remark doesn't realize the other contractual agreements that Universal is already in that Vivendi may or may not be able to bend/break to be able to make exclusive deals like that.

AND, beyond that, this can be the start of more and more of a trend away from the traditional music distribution format. What a twisted web entertainment has gotten to be.

[Admiralwiggin]

although many see this as a bad thing competition is sometimes good , look how long gaming in general has been shadowed by the Giant EA and its gobbling up little companies . good competition is good sometimes

[SoulScreme]

although many see this as a bad thing competition is sometimes good , look how long gaming in general has been shadowed by the Giant EA and its gobbling up little companies . good competition is good sometimes

So how does a merging of two separate companies into one larger company create competition?

[Amish Robot]

So how does a merging of two separate companies into one larger company create competition?

I think the point is that the merger creates a company that can really stand toe to toe against EA, who has been a juggernaut of rehashes for nearly a decade.

[SoulScreme]

I think the point is that the merger creates a company that can really stand toe to toe against EA, who has been a juggernaut of rehashes for nearly a decade.

Woohoo, fight to the death, two bloated rehashing entities enter, one leaves.

[tbradshaw]

There was no GnR and RATM exclusivity in GH3. Remember, there were songs from both bands in GH2 as well(Sweet Child, Killing in the Name of), the game made by the creators of RB :)

I realize the rest of your post is true, but there are exclusives for GH3 due to Morello and Slash being spokespersons for GH3. We know this because, just like quoted earlier in the thread, Harmonix specifically explained that there were. Although, I don't think it was really a matter of music rights, so much as a professional courtesy. Morello and Slash are spokespersons for GH3, and it would be professionally inappropriate to use the music in the release disk of Rock Band because it weakens the artist's ability to promote their public personality.

However, I fully expect some RATM and GnR downloadable content, and Harmonix has expressed that this will be the case.

[Eastwood]

You know what is really killing HMX? Their partnership with EA. :mad:

[davidshek]

I realize the rest of your post is true, but there are exclusives for GH3 due to Morello and Slash being spokespersons for GH3. We know this because, just like quoted earlier in the thread, Harmonix specifically explained that there were.

If you're referring to the Boss Battle solos that Slash and Morello specifically recorded for GH3, then yeah, sure, they're exclusive to GH3. If you're not, what else are you referring to?


However, I fully expect some RATM and GnR downloadable content, and Harmonix has expressed that this will be the case.

I certainly hope so! They're both fun music to play. :)

[Credge]

What's this? Musicians/bands get air time on MTV? Since when? 1995?

MTV2 is littered with rap and T.V. Shows involving rap. MHD has constant live shows from all sorts of genres spanning hip-hop to rock to country.

As I said, MTV has much power. Don't think for a second that MTV is some independent thing. They run:
* MTV
* MTV2
* MTV Tr3́s
* MTV Hits
* MTV Jams
* mtvU
* MHD (high-definition channel)
* VH1
* VH1 Classic
* VH1 Soul
* VH1 Uno
* CMT
* CMT Pure Country
* Comedy Central
* Logo
* Nickelodeon
* Nickelodeon GAS
* Noggin
* Nicktoons Network
* Spike TV
* The N
* TV Land
* Nick-at-Nite

Taken from the Wiki here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_MTV_channels

It's not an issue and anyone who thinks it is needs a reality check.

[TheTogfather]

MHD has constant live shows from all sorts of genres spanning hip-hop to rock to country.


I just watched one of these w/ the Foo Fighters that was pretty cool actually. Not sure exactly what the name of the show was, but the performance was obviously done specifically for the show, as there was even a question and answer portion w/ Grohl fielding questions from the audience. Unfortunately no one asked him how it feels to be the highest participating artist in the fake plastic rock genre.

[Eastwood]

Unfortunately no one asked him how it feels to be the highest participating artist in the fake plastic rock genre.

I think he is talented. He is a better musician than I am, at least. More talented than a lot of hip hop artists.

I think the merger will bring more balance to what was already leaning in EA's favor.

[SoulScreme]

I think he is talented. He is a better musician than I am, at least. More talented than a lot of hip hop artists.

I think the merger will bring more balance to what was already leaning in EA's favor.

I dunno, for my money it shouldn't be balanced. Activision released a half-cocked game with crappy online play, poor community support, a one-sided track list, not opportunity for multiplayer, un-unlockable songs for PS3 players, clear 360 favoritism (exclusive 360 DLC), and difficulty that excludes non-hardcore GH players. They deserve to get their asses kicked by Rock Band.

[Eastwood]

I dunno, for my money it shouldn't be balanced. Activision released a half-cocked game with crappy online play, poor community support, a one-sided track list, not opportunity for multiplayer, un-unlockable songs for PS3 players, clear 360 favoritism (exclusive 360 DLC), and difficulty that excludes non-hardcore GH players. They deserve to get their asses kicked by Rock Band.

A lot of people are saying the opposite of that for EA. I actually thought you were talking about Rock Band until the end. :p

[SoulScreme]

A lot of people are saying the opposite of that for EA. I actually thought you were talking about Rock Band until the end. :p

Have you played GH3? It's a mess.

[Eastwood]

Have you played GH3? It's a mess.

I have played it. I played it for an hour, then took it back. It was like they took everything that was right about GH2 and changed it for the worse.

[Credge]

I just watched one of these w/ the Foo Fighters that was pretty cool actually. Not sure exactly what the name of the show was, but the performance was obviously done specifically for the show, as there was even a question and answer portion w/ Grohl fielding questions from the audience. Unfortunately no one asked him how it feels to be the highest participating artist in the fake plastic rock genre.

It's on right now, actually.

They've got a lot of HD stuffs. What's on today consists of:

Live Set: Foo Fighters
VH1 Rock Honors (Ozzy one)
Storytellers (live music from popular artists... todays is Bruce Springsteen)
Isle of Wight Festival: Who (Unsure, they have lots of live festival and concert music)
Unplugged (Bon Jovi)
Storytellers (Greenday)
Storytellers (Dave Matthews Band)
Foo Fighters again
CMT Giants: Hank Williams JR.
Crossroads (Trisha Yearwood and Kenny "Babyface" Edmonds)
Dierks Bentley Live and Loud
Live Set: Rascal Flats
2007 CMT Music Awards
Then HD Videos from 3:00 AM EST to 9:00 AM EST

Even if it's music I don't like, I don't care. It's music, especially of the live variety.

But I disagree with you about the Foo Fighters. Maybe not so much with their newer works, but the older stuff, specifically The Colour and the Shape, is simply golden.

[SoulScreme]

I have played it. I played it for an hour, then took it back. It was like they took everything that was right about GH2 and changed it for the worse.

Lucky, they wouldn't take mine back. Ended up selling it to the roommate who is a hardcore GH nut.

[Eastwood]

I told them the disk was faulty and wouldn't play. Then transferred over to my Rock Band preorder. They get to send it back as faulty and still keep their money. Either way, they win!

[SoulScreme]

I told them the disk was faulty and wouldn't play. Then transferred over to my Rock Band preorder. They get to send it back as faulty and still keep their money. Either way, they win!

Ahh, lying... should have tried that.

[TheTogfather]

But I disagree with you about the Foo Fighters. Maybe not so much with their newer works, but the older stuff, specifically The Colour and the Shape, is simply golden.

Huh? I think I've been misunderstood, I like the Foo Fighters. I didn't mean to say they sucked or anything, my comment was just related to the fact that Grohl has been involved in GH and Rock Band far more than any other musician. Someone somewhere else broke it all down, but if I can recall correctly, just on Rock Band alone he was present on:

Go with the Flow - drums
Hand that Feeds - drums
Learn to Fly - guitar/vocals
In Bloom - drums

And I think there was even more. I really admire the career he's built/is building and I'm very glad that he welcomes the chance to share his music w/ us via rythym gaming.

anyway, sorry for off-topic diversion...

[Eastwood]

Huh? I think I've been misunderstood, I like the Foo Fighters. I didn't mean to say they sucked or anything, my comment was just related to the fact that Grohl has been involved in GH and Rock Band far more than any other musician. Someone somewhere else broke it all down, but if I can recall correctly, just on Rock Band alone he was present on:

Go with the Flow - drums
Hand that Feeds - drums
Learn to Fly - guitar/vocals
In Bloom - drums

And I think there was even more. I really admire the career he's built/is building and I'm very glad that he welcomes the chance to share his music w/ us via rythym gaming.

anyway, sorry for off-topic diversion...

After that, I understand your previous comment! I agree!

[Damaged]

Sounlscreme, Federal anti-trust wouldn't/couldn't do anything.. There's no monopoly to even bring up. There are other music companies, and there are other video game companies. Hence, no monopoly to break up.

Also, any company is free to enter into an exclusivity agreement if they feel it is agreeable. Think not? Check EA and the NFL, EA and ESPN, EA and Players Inc., EA and Collegiate Licencing Company, EA and etc.... I guess you're seeing a pattern by now..

However, while Actiblizzion could try to hold back a few tunes to be able to put the word "exclusive" on the box, what makes anyone think that they would tie the success or failure of an entire business unit to one game? Even if that game is their cash cow, there's no way that they are going to allow the music businesses' fate to be decided by it. (Not that a game can't have impact, Dragonforce sales went up %183 because of GH3.)

MTV and Radio and Fuse and a hundred other things are more important to the music division being a profit center than a game. Universal Music will not allow themselves to become the "Guitar Hero Music Company".

[Bluvox]

I wonder if the new WoW expansion will now have a rhythm guitar mini-game in it?

Maybe a Guitar Gnome glass? Mechanical Gibson trinket?

*ponders the bad jokes from that...*

[SoulScreme]

I wonder if the new WoW expansion will now have a rhythm guitar mini-game in it?

Maybe a Guitar Gnome glass? Mechanical Gibson trinket?

*ponders the bad jokes from that...*

That and skateboarding.