Two drum high scores, leaderboards question, Rock Band vs. Drummania.

[Tommy Gun]

I wrote a rather lengthy post about a number of things (http://crackedrabbitgaming.com/2007/12/03/rock-band-two-1-in-the-world-expert-drum-scores-leaderboards-question-rock-band-vs-drummania/), so I won't repost it all here. I'm mostly interested in the leaderboards question (half-way down the page) -- does anyone know? I haven't played GH online, so I can't compare.

[DesiredFX]

This question is very similar to one that came up when people started trying to conquer Easy songs in Guitar Hero so they could post the top score on Score Hero.

For every song, there is an optimal time to trigger the Overdrive/Star Power. Yes, you're more limited with the drums because you can't choose to trigger Overdrive whenever you want. But you can still choose which drum fills to complete and thus trigger your Overdrive.

The optimal path for some songs may involve triggering Overdrive at the first opportunity after you hit 4x, even if your gauge is at the lowest it can go, then after Overdrive fades, waiting until you're up to 3/4 of your gauge before you trigger it next time.

There are enough Overdrive and drum fill triggers that this is going to take a while to figure out, especially on Hard and Expert modes.

On a different note, I watched the Drummania videos on the page you linked to, and it strikes me the same way GH3 does: difficult for the sake of being difficult. There's almost nothing musical about the way the drums are played, and it comes off looking like DDR for drumsticks (and foot pedal). I imagine someone who can play that game well can make quite a racket on a real drum kit, but can he hold a steady beat without dominating the song? There's no room for touch or subtlety in that game, at least, not the way it's presented. The music behind the drumming is all but drowned out by the cacophony of beats and cymbal crashes.

Sure, if you wanna go on stage and drum solo for the talent show, hey, it's great training for that. You'll blow people's minds.

I guess what I'm saying is that--unlike what you suggest in the post--I don't want to see drumming in Rock Band ever approach that difficulty level, especially not solely because people want it to approach that difficulty level. It defeats the purpose of the game.

[davidshek]

I guess what I'm saying is that--unlike what you suggest in the post--I don't want to see drumming in Rock Band ever approach that difficulty level, especially not solely because people want it to approach that difficulty level. It defeats the purpose of the game.

Once again I agree with just about everything you said, DesiredFX. But I'll add one thing:

I'd love to see some Boss Battles on drums. Playing a trade-off solo vs. Peart or Ulrich or Bonham? That'd be fun as hell! :)

[AdamWill]

okay, we know DM is harder than RB. that was established weeks back. It's also hardly surprising, as RB is intended to be a fun casual game and 95% of the people who play it never touched either DM or a real drum kit before, whereas DM has been around for many years now and is mainly played by a hardcore user base. So, uh, yeah, don't beat the dead horse. :)

However, for the benefit of DesiredFX and anyone like him reading this: the videos of DM you see in posts like Tommy's are a vast distortion of the game. There's around 400 songs in the latest arcade version of DM, and maybe 20 of them are ridiculous showoff songs like those two (though the drum charts in both those songs do in fact make sense and work with the song). The vast majority of songs in DM are much more 'typical' in terms of the charts they use. Take, for instance, the single most popular (and ridiculously overplayed) song in the game, Dragon Blade:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rCw73pH2QNQ

(the guy is not very good, sorry, it was just easy to find and the quality's quite good). That's a level 62. The majority of songs in DM are in the 50-70 range, *not* the 90-99 range.

The 90-99 songs have to be there because the best players are so ridiculously good they need them. Any of the top 100-200 DM players in the world can score a high SS, or Excellent (the highest score theoretically possible - 100% perfects) on most of the easier songs. They just can't compete in a meaningful way without having the hardest songs available. They are also fun for good-but-less-good players, like me or Tommy, to hack around and get B's at.

Boss battles are in the newest GF / DM console game but I don't get the point. Let's face it, if they made the virtual boss as good as Peart or Ulrich or Bonham really are / were - you'd get your ass handed to you. And if the virtual boss wasn't really as good...what's the point?

[Tommy Gun]

The optimal path for some songs may involve triggering Overdrive at the first opportunity after you hit 4x, even if your gauge is at the lowest it can go, then after Overdrive fades, waiting until you're up to 3/4 of your gauge before you trigger it next time.

There are enough Overdrive and drum fill triggers that this is going to take a while to figure out, especially on Hard and Expert modes.

Well I have no doubt in my mind that a lot of people (not myself) will be able to 100% many of the Expert songs. By NOT using overdrive at the first available moment, you're actually covering up notes you could be playing, so it's probably (though I haven't done the math) in your best interest to activate right away. I don't think it'll take very long to figure out if that's true for each song.



On a different note, I watched the Drummania videos on the page you linked to, and it strikes me the same way GH3 does: difficult for the sake of being difficult.
[...]
The music behind the drumming is all but drowned out by the cacophony of beats and cymbal crashes.
Well they are playing in a very loud arcade already. ;) But as Adam said, most of the songs aren't that crazy, certainly nothing that I play. I wrote that part after people were all saying that And Justice For All was the craziest/hardest/insanest thing they'd ever seen. I was comparing the hard RB songs to the hard DM songs.



I guess what I'm saying is that--unlike what you suggest in the post--I don't want to see drumming in Rock Band ever approach that difficulty level, especially not solely because people want it to approach that difficulty level. It defeats the purpose of the game.

I agree, I wouldn't be able to do it anyway. But there will always be Medium/Hard to go to if it gets too difficult. I don't want hard for the sake of hard, but if it's realistic hard, that's fine.



okay, we know DM is harder than RB. that was established weeks back.
Well I wasn't writing the post for DM players or people who read every message here, it was directed at the AJFA people.



Boss battles are in the newest GF / DM console game but I don't get the point. Let's face it, if they made the virtual boss as good as Peart or Ulrich or Bonham really are / were - you'd get your ass handed to you. And if the virtual boss wasn't really as good...what's the point?
Forget *battles*, how about songs where you just get to *play along with* them? That would be cool.

[Rock_Starman]

The first 20 seconds of I Fought the Law sounds like it'll be difficult. I'm not sure since I'm Candian and don't have it yet.

No more boss battles in music games ever. Play with them? Fine. Battles? Hell no. That had to be one of the stupidest ideas ever.

[AdamWill]

tommy: fair enough, just don't want RB people to get p'ed off with too much talk about GF/DM since this is, after all, the RB forum =). what kinda level are you at for DM, out of interest?

[Spooky73]

Wow. I had never heard of DrumMania before. That looks awesome!

One thing in regards to difficulty though...

Even if people can physically do it, I just don't think the Rock Band hardware would be able to support anything as difficult as DrumMania at that high level. That DM kit looked 10 times more stable and ergonomically correct. I want that set for RB!

[M3wThr33]

Wow. I had never heard of DrumMania before. That looks awesome!

One thing in regards to difficulty though...

Even if people can physically do it, I just don't think the Rock Band hardware would be able to support anything as difficult as DrumMania at that high level. That DM kit looked 10 times more stable and ergonomically correct. I want that set for RB!

The Drummania machines use Yamaha hardware and cost more than a car.

[AdamWill]

that's just arcade machine economics though (when your sales are in the hundreds rather than the hundreds of thousands, you *have* to charge upwards of $10,000 per unit), nothing intrinsic. You can get a basic Yamaha kit with the same basic hardware used on a DM machine for $800 or so new. A lot more than the RB kit, yes, but not silly money. There's nothing actually in a DM machine that, in hardware terms, justifies a $10,000 price, that's simply the price necessary to support development of the software and (the most expensive thing) all the music production (most of the music in GF/DM is produced by Bemani). Actually, all there is in a DM machine is most of a Yamaha DTXpress drum kit, a few custom PCBs, a PC running Windows XP Embedded, and some fairly decent sound hardware.

I think you could play something in the DM 90+ difficulty range on an RB kit (if it was a properly working one without any of the rolling issues people have reported). You'd probably do a little worse than on a DM arcade machine, but it'd be manageable.

People have played up to at least the 80s on the hideously bad DM console kit after all, and that's incomparably worse than the RB kit.

A guy who makes niche aftermarket controllers for rhythm games (DJ Dao) is currently working on an 'arcade style' kit for Drummania (for the console versions of DM); it'll cost around $500 plus shipping from Hong Kong (which won't be cheap, as it's a substantial piece of kit). He is considering making it RB compatible, if that's feasible (it'd require some kind of mechanism for changing the mapping on the pads, which he could do, but it also requires that it can be made to work with RB simply by figuring out the correct controller mapping, which no-one's determined for sure is possible yet). From what has been made available in terms of videos of the test version of the kit, it will be *very* similar to the DM arcade kit.

[reverser]

that's just arcade machine economics though (when your sales are in the hundreds rather than the hundreds of thousands, you *have* to charge upwards of $10,000 per unit), nothing intrinsic. You can get a basic Yamaha kit with the same basic hardware used on a DM machine for $800 or so new. A lot more than the RB kit, yes, but not silly money. There's nothing actually in a DM machine that, in hardware terms, justifies a $10,000 price, that's simply the price necessary to support development of the software and (the most expensive thing) all the music production (most of the music in GF/DM is produced by Bemani). Actually, all there is in a DM machine is most of a Yamaha DTXpress drum kit, a few custom PCBs, a PC running Windows XP Embedded, and some fairly decent sound hardware.

I think you could play something in the DM 90+ difficulty range on an RB kit (if it was a properly working one without any of the rolling issues people have reported). You'd probably do a little worse than on a DM arcade machine, but it'd be manageable.

People have played up to at least the 80s on the hideously bad DM console kit after all, and that's incomparably worse than the RB kit.

A guy who makes niche aftermarket controllers for rhythm games (DJ Dao) is currently working on an 'arcade style' kit for Drummania (for the console versions of DM); it'll cost around $500 plus shipping from Hong Kong (which won't be cheap, as it's a substantial piece of kit). He is considering making it RB compatible, if that's feasible (it'd require some kind of mechanism for changing the mapping on the pads, which he could do, but it also requires that it can be made to work with RB simply by figuring out the correct controller mapping, which no-one's determined for sure is possible yet). From what has been made available in terms of videos of the test version of the kit, it will be *very* similar to the DM arcade kit.


See the attached image for my DM kit. Now if only we could get these midi kits to work on RB.

[AdamWill]

an older Roland v-drums kit, right?

those are pretty nice. the new ones are real nice. :)

[DesiredFX]

Well I have no doubt in my mind that a lot of people (not myself) will be able to 100% many of the Expert songs. By NOT using overdrive at the first available moment, you're actually covering up notes you could be playing, so it's probably (though I haven't done the math) in your best interest to activate right away. I don't think it'll take very long to figure out if that's true for each song.

I think I'm missing what you're saying: unlike Guitar Hero, activating Overdrive doesn't cost you a shot at more Overdrive--every phrase earned while in overdrive is just added to the total that you're burning after activating it.

That's what will make figuring out the Overdrive stuff more complicated: if you trigger it at point A while it's low, and you pick up two phrases while you're in Overdrive, you'll probably get more points overall than if you waited for your gauge to fill up with four phrases and then triggered it at the first opportunity. If you assume--and rightly so--that the people who 100% the song will also have no trouble triggering Overdrive whenever they want, it becomes a question of looking over the chart and figuring out when the best times to trigger it are, based largely on how many Overdrive phrases you'll pick up while Overdrive is active.

[sephiroth702]

I think I'm missing what you're saying: unlike Guitar Hero, activating Overdrive doesn't cost you a shot at more Overdrive--every phrase earned while in overdrive is just added to the total that you're burning after activating it.

That's what will make figuring out the Overdrive stuff more complicated: if you trigger it at point A while it's low, and you pick up two phrases while you're in Overdrive, you'll probably get more points overall than if you waited for your gauge to fill up with four phrases and then triggered it at the first opportunity. If you assume--and rightly so--that the people who 100% the song will also have no trouble triggering Overdrive whenever they want, it becomes a question of looking over the chart and figuring out when the best times to trigger it are, based largely on how many Overdrive phrases you'll pick up while Overdrive is active.

He's saying that when you don't have overdrive and you get to part X in a song, you play some notes on the drums and get points for them. But when you DO have overdrive and you get to part X, the drum fill (the big coloured lanes) cover up all the notes you would normally be playing. You don't get points for anything you do in drum fills, so if you just leave your meter full and don't activate overdrive, you'll constantly being "missing" notes, thereby lowering your maximum score.

Also, it doesn't matter at all how many overdrive phrases you pick up while in overdrive. The most important factor is average note density for the duration of your overdrive. While you have an 8x multiplier, you want to hit as many notes as possible to get the most points. The only problem is that saving overdrive on drums decreases the points you get while not in overdrive (see above).

Anyway, I'm really interested in Drummania. I'm kind of disappointed with Rock Band's lack of challenge for top tier players. I'm not any good at Rock Band drums yet, I can only beat about 3/4 of Expert and I only have about five or six songs gold-starred, but I don't see it as being a real challenge given time. That said, is

http://www.play-asia.com/paOS-13-71-88-49-en-15-drummania-70-14xb.html

A good home set? Do you recommend any? I'm trying to keep it relatively cheap, as I don't know how long my interest will last considering all my other musical projects going on.

Also, are there any forums/websites I can learn about DM home versions and such? I've imported bemani before, so I'm not worried about the japanese, but I'm curious what versions have the best overall songs.

reverser, your home set looks sexxxxy. That's also the most DVDs/CDs I've ever seen. Holy crap.

[DesiredFX]

He's saying that when you don't have overdrive and you get to part X in a song, you play some notes on the drums and get points for them. But when you DO have overdrive and you get to part X, the drum fill (the big coloured lanes) cover up all the notes you would normally be playing. You don't get points for anything you do in drum fills, so if you just leave your meter full and don't activate overdrive, you'll constantly being "missing" notes, thereby lowering your maximum score.

Your argument here is that you shouldn't delay the use of Overdrive because that will cost you points. That's not true, especially if we're talking about drummers who can hit the Full Combo on Expert. Every one of them will be able to activate Overdrive for the first time at the very same time in the game.

So the point is to try to figure out whether what that first fill passage costs you in missed note opportunities is worth more or less than saving the Overdrive so that it will extend into a passage that contains more notes than the skipped drum fill cost you.



Also, it doesn't matter at all how many overdrive phrases you pick up while in overdrive. The most important factor is average note density for the duration of your overdrive. While you have an 8x multiplier, you want to hit as many notes as possible to get the most points.

You just contradicted yourself. You said the number of phrases you pick up while in Overdrive--which increase the duration of your Overdrive--doesn't matter, but the note density for the duration does.

If duration is a factor in determining what you score, and picking up energy while in Overdrive increases the duration of your Overdrive, then how many Overdrive phrases you pick up while in Overdrive is absolutely crucial to the equation.

[sephiroth702]

Your argument here is that you shouldn't delay the use of Overdrive because that will cost you points. That's not true, especially if we're talking about drummers who can hit the Full Combo on Expert. Every one of them will be able to activate Overdrive for the first time at the very same time in the game.

So the point is to try to figure out whether what that first fill passage costs you in missed note opportunities is worth more or less than saving the Overdrive so that it will extend into a passage that contains more notes than the skipped drum fill cost you.

This is exactly what I was saying. I think we're misunderstanding each other.



You just contradicted yourself. You said the number of phrases you pick up while in Overdrive--which increase the duration of your Overdrive--doesn't matter, but the note density for the duration does.

If duration is a factor in determining what you score, and picking up energy while in Overdrive increases the duration of your Overdrive, then how many Overdrive phrases you pick up while in Overdrive is absolutely crucial to the equation.

That's not a contradiction. Average note density would not INCREASE by picking up more phrases unless the extended time gives you overdrive in a phrase that has more notes per unit time than the phrases before it.

E.g. You could have a phrase with 20 notes and use overdrive. Say you used one unit of overdrive. Then this is 20notes/overdrive. If you then picked up another phrase of overdrive for the next phrase, which has 20 notes. Then your density hasn't changed.

Now suppose the third phrase in this section has 100 notes/overdrive. This section is much more dense. Then it would clearly be more worth while to save your overdrive, since

((40 * 8x) + (100 * 4x)) < (100 * 8x)

See my point? It's more beneficial to skip using overdrive on the first phrase EVEN THOUGH you'd pick up another phrase worth of overdrive while in overdrive. So the number of overdrive phrases you pick up while in overdrive is irrelevant.

[Chris_Gonzalez]

Once again I agree with just about everything you said, DesiredFX. But I'll add one thing:

I'd love to see some Boss Battles on drums. Playing a trade-off solo vs. Peart or Ulrich or Bonham? That'd be fun as hell! :)

And Keith Moon. Except he passes out halfway through the song and an audience member has to come up and play the rest of it.

[reverser]

an older Roland v-drums kit, right?

those are pretty nice. the new ones are real nice. :)

Those are actually the newest and top of the line ones. Roland TD-20. There is a TD-30 in the works but lord knows when that will actually arrive.

[davidshek]

And Keith Moon. Except he passes out halfway through the song and an audience member has to come up and play the rest of it.

I was trying to just stick to drummers who are still alive (not John Bonham, Jason :)). It'd be alot harder to get a dead guy to come in and wear the MoCap suit ;)

[AdamWill]

Those are actually the newest and top of the line ones. Roland TD-20. There is a TD-30 in the works but lord knows when that will actually arrive.

ah, sorry, looked like an older kit for some reason. *very* nice setup then! those things ain't cheap =)

[reverser]

ah, sorry, looked like an older kit for some reason. *very* nice setup then! those things ain't cheap =)

Thanks. The real point of this though is that I would LOVE to be able to use these things in RB. Harmonix (or hobbyists :)) PLEASE MAKE THIS HAPPEN!

[DesiredFX]

See my point? It's more beneficial to skip using overdrive on the first phrase EVEN THOUGH you'd pick up another phrase worth of overdrive while in overdrive. So the number of overdrive phrases you pick up while in overdrive is irrelevant.

Yeah, I think we're finally on the same track, but I disagree: the optimal path through the song will undoubtedly have to factor in how much energy you pick up while you're in Overdrive, because it will help to define the total number of notes you play while in Overdrive (presumably at 8x).

Ideally, you don't want to end a song with energy remaining (in most cases, anyway), which means either planning your final overdrive trigger at a point that picks the last energy up while you're still in Overdrive, or choosing your earlier Overdrive triggers in a way that will allow you to pick up the last several phrases in time to use them to finish the song.

Energy that you don't pick up in time obviously goes unused, and energy that is spent on a section with low note density is used inefficiently. However, there may be a situation in which using energy through a a section with low note density will allow you to pick up energy to extend your Overdrive into a section with high note density.

Again, the charts have to be studied and played with to figure out what's optimal, and there may be sections where what doesn't appear to be optimal at the start turns out to be optimal precisely because you're picking up additional energy while Overdrive is on.