Lagless High Def TV? Recommendations?

[pschkqitzsough]

Anyone know of a good High Def. T.V. that has 0 (or as close as possible) lag?

What stats should I be looking for?

Thanks in advance! :)

[Shoeless]

If you can find them there are actually CRT HD TVs still floating around that have zero lag. They don't go much beyond 30", but because these are still using old fashioned tubes and electron guns, they have the same responsiveness as your old SD TV, ie, Zero Lag. Of course this also means a TV that size with a tube in it is going to be pretty heavy, but that's about as good as you're going to get for HD TVs.

The other downside is that these older models usually only display in 1080i and/or 720p, but otherwise they meet your zero lag requirement.

Here's an example to take a look at, though I think this particular model may no longer be in production. You'd probably have to hunt it down a bit.

Link. (http://www.amazon.com/Samsung-TX-R3079WH-SlimFit-Built-Tuner/dp/B0009EXWJS)

[Transbrak]

i have a 57" sony rp hdtv with no lag my friends 32" vizio lcd hdtv has no lag as well

[ken5041]

I have a 37" HP with smart media that has no lag, mine is only 720 but I think the new model is full 1080.

[RX King]

Isn't there an option to adjust for this lag on the game itself?

[ThePaska]

Isn't there an option to adjust for this lag on the game itself?

Yes, and from my experience it is very detailed and works extremely well.

[NattyLight]

My mother has a wega and there is no lg. I've also played on a philips with 480p and i didn't notice any lag

[RX King]

Yes, and from my experience it is very detailed and works extremely well.

New thread: "Read instruction manual before posting!"

[Apples]

I use a rear projection HDTV... best gaming TV purchase ever. Using every calibration tool across every rhythm game out there, I get 0 MS adjustment.

[I_Like_Juice]

I have an Oleivia 40" LCD HD and I notice 0 lag with it on GH or RB. You can buy them just about anywhere, and Circuit City had great sales on them, I got mine for $599 last year. :)

[RX King]

What's the resolution?

[j00zt1n]

In my experience, any TV that does high-def will have lag. This game does a very good job of calibrating to match which TV you have, but on some of the super-hard songs you might notice a hint of it during the fast parts. From what I've found personally, It's impossible to get the game calibrated "perfectly" unless you're using an old-fashioned SDTV CRT.

Basically, unless you're good enough to at least four-star everything on expert you probably won't notice as long as you calibrate the game. If you are that good, you'll barely notice.

About that Samsung CRT someone mentioned up there: I actually tried that set out a couple months ago with GH2, and I still had some lag on it. My guess is it's the native resolution deal, google around for it and there are some high-tech forums dedicated to nitpicking about response times and lag and what have you.

[elliott4179]

have a 53 rear projection and a 42'' plasma both panasonic. zero lag.

[Almadiel]

All TVs have some latency. High definition has nothing to do with it. HD TV broadcasts are another story, because those must be decompressed before they can be displayed, and this can result in the audio coming before the video. But the image coming from your game system is never compressed (audio may be if you use a digital audio connection, but this will be very small, and humans are used to hearing things after seeing them since sound travels slower than light). Digital TVs do have some additional latency due to buffering, but this is way too small to matter.

Now, what can cause noticeable latency is digital image processing. If you use a lot of features like edge enhancement and noise reduction you might cause some lag. This depends a lot on the TV, and is irrespective of display technology. If it causes a problem, go into your TV setup menu and turn off as many extra features as you can, use default color temperature settings, etc.

But realistically, the delay in getting neural impulses from your brain to your strumming hand is going to be longer. Unless you are talking about something like half a second, which is rare in any TV, you will get used to it to the point where you can't even notice it (we do this anyway, again because of how slow our nervous systems are). And of course you can adjust the lag setting in rock band, pick whichever makes you most comfortable.

[xCHRISx]

I have a Samsung 46" 1080p LCD, LNT4661F, no noticeable lag at all. Works beautifully!

[batsu336]

It cracks me up to see all the "0 lag on my TV" responses. Like others have said, all LCD TVs have lag. Most of the newer sets have an 8 ms or better delay. You will not notice 8 milliseconds with the naked eye even if you try. By comparison, an eyeblink takes about 100 milliseconds. Some LCD computer monitors boast 2 ms delay times, but I think it is B.S...a normal person can't tell the difference. I can't tell the difference in lag anymore on my LCD, but when my friend comes over to play his timing is way off at first, because he is used to a CRT screen without the delay.
I think the default Rock Band LCD configuration is probably set up for 8 ms, but if you have a different resonse time on your set, you will need to tweak it. Some people were getting huge audio lag when using 7.1 surround sound systems, but that thread disappeared days ago. I think a lot of the different lag people are seeing is not the LCD response time, but the delay in the secondary connections on the back of the LCD unit itself. Every brand of LCD has it's own unique input connection set up, and it appears that some models (usually lower end) have some delay issues. Probably they save a little money on the metal used on the secondary connections and wiring, so there's a little lower conductivity, thus a slower signal. Kinda like dial-up vs. Broadband, but nowhere near as big a difference.

Anyway, I have a cheap Sylvania 28" LCD with an 8 ms response time and it works fine with the default LCD setting. I was afraid I would have to do some detailed tweaking since I have a cheaper set, but I lucked out.

[KingNuclear]

Everyone must be lying when they say their TV's don't lag, or maybe the players skill is to low to notice the lag.

I play on Expert, and FC 99% of the songs in R.B. G.H. 3 ( hardcore player)

I had a cheap off brand, 600$ HDTV 32" and I was missing notes I KNEW! I was not missing, because it failed to register.



Around 1,200$ For a Aquos TV model, grab a Sharp or a sony.



*Just because your TV does not * Stutter, or jump notes, does not mean your TV doesn't lag*

Spend the extra money and get an Aquos certificated TV. It is the ONLY T.V. on the market that displays in true 1080P for a 32" HDTV.

Make sure your using HDMI cables also, to ensure your 8ms response time is taken down to 4ms

[CaptainCoins]

I'm have a 42" HP Plasma and I have 0 lag on Guitar Hero, still waiting on RB.

[jsorge]

In my experience, any TV that does high-def will have lag. This game does a very good job of calibrating to match which TV you have, but on some of the super-hard songs you might notice a hint of it during the fast parts. From what I've found personally, It's impossible to get the game calibrated "perfectly" unless you're using an old-fashioned SDTV CRT.

Basically, unless you're good enough to at least four-star everything on expert you probably won't notice as long as you calibrate the game. If you are that good, you'll barely notice.

About that Samsung CRT someone mentioned up there: I actually tried that set out a couple months ago with GH2, and I still had some lag on it. My guess is it's the native resolution deal, google around for it and there are some high-tech forums dedicated to nitpicking about response times and lag and what have you.

QFT

I have played on many HDTVs and have never had the lag perfectly fixed. I've played DLPs (which are the worst), a Sony Bravia and a Sharp Aquos, both with either 2 or 4 ms response time (I can't remember which), and a Samsung LCD with about an 8ms response time. I still like the CRT hands down.

I am a hardcore player who is so seious, I am holding off on buying an HDTV for myself until the problem gets fixed. It is the most important issue for me and drives me crazy.

Bottom line: if you aren't five-starring the expert songs, the lag won't be as much of an issue, but if you are, be prepared for disappointment when you play on your HDTV.

I'm running a JVC CRT and have absolutely no lag.

One other point about those lag calibration things: I don't think they will ever work. They will sync the video with the audio properly, but it can't sync the video with the controller input because it takes time to process that information and display it, so it will never be in time with the video.

[KingNuclear]

QFT
elf until the problem gets fixed. It is the most important issue for me and drives me crazy.

Bottom line: if you aren't five-starring the expert songs, the lag won't be as much of an issue, but if you are, be prepared for disappointment when you play on your HDTV.


I agree 100%!

[AcousticCitsuoa]

i have a 42" LCD LG and i have not experienced any lag related problems

[Credge]

I find this conversation incredibly funny, especially since 8.5 ms is the same rate of flicker that a fluorescent light fixture has.

It's, very literally, undetectable by the human eye. Anyone claiming that they can notice any sort of lag on new HD-TV's are either lying or tried to calibrate something that did not need to be calibrated.

[KingNuclear]

I find this conversation incredibly funny, especially since 8.5 ms is the same rate of flicker that a fluorescent light fixture has.

It's, very literally, undetectable by the human eye. Anyone claiming that they can notice any sort of lag on new HD-TV's are either lying or tried to calibrate something that did not need to be calibrated.

I disagree.

[Thrashdragon]

I am a hardcore player who is so seious, I am holding off on buying an HDTV for myself until the problem gets fixed. It is the most important issue for me and drives me crazy.

Bottom line: if you aren't five-starring the expert songs, the lag won't be as much of an issue, but if you are, be prepared for disappointment when you play on your HDTV.

:confused:

I have a Vizio (low end brand) 42" 1080p LCD and have most of Expert guitar five-starred (everything that isn't are songs I've only played once while inebriated). I've played quite a bit of GHII, GHIII, and all of the PS2 GH series on this television and never had any lag issues. I've also never had to calibrate anything. I did turn the Rock Band LCD preset on after a couple of days to see if it made a difference, and it may have tightened things up a bit, but it's honestly extremely difficult to notice a difference.

I'm sure that there may be some issues with some brands, but all HDTVs do not have a lag problem, at least not one that the human eye can notice.

[Micker]

I have a 62" toshiba 1080p tv and it is perfect as far as timing when I see the notes pass the bar. A lot of tvs have a GAME MODE in there options that is supposed to reduce lag. I have it on my tv, but don't even need it.

[xCHRISx]

To defend the HDTV users, my 46" LCD 1080p gives me no troubles 5-starring or FC'ing songs on expert. I switched from a 25" CRT with no real adjustments to my playing at all. Some people just like to wear tinfoil hats, that's all.. ;)

[KingNuclear]

[QUOTE=xCHRISx;173221]To defend the HDTV users, my 46" LCD 1080p.

I'm sure your T.V. is 4ms response time.

I have two HDTV's one Sony 42"HDTV 1080p Aquos 4ms response time


32"HDTV off brand symphonic 8ms response time

100% full combo songs with a breeze on the sony

the symphonic, when four players use overdrive at the same time, the set will stutter on expert difficulty only, and act sluggish for half, or barely a second.


Noticeable.


-Nuke-

[Maggot_Brain]

I'm getting a 47" Magnavox LCD with 8ms response time. Should be in tomorrow. I hope there ain't no lag!

[Credge]

I disagree.

You can disagree all you want.

http://www.yorku.ca/mack/CHI93b.html

Oddly enough, I spent about 5 seconds googling MS LAG and found this. I was off by .2 ms. Fluorescent light bulbs flicker at 8.3 ms which is unnoticeable by the human eye.

[arnie335]

I have a Vizio 37" LCD HDTV. Rock Band took me about 7 tries to finally calibrate correctly. I think im at about 55ms (maybe more). The LCD setting was still not in rythm. As a real drummer, you WILL notice any lag whatsoever especially playing on Expert where you have 32nd notes and fast tempo's songs. EVERY LCD TV ive played on had to be calibrated FYI..

[HMXChrisCanfield]

I find this conversation incredibly funny, especially since 8.5 ms is the same rate of flicker that a fluorescent light fixture has.

I believe you're referring to pixel up / down time here, which as you point out is basically unnoticeable.

The problem is how long the TV buffers frames before displaying them. Some HDTV's (primarily designed to play movies) will buffer up a lot of frames of video, then do anti-grain, edge sharpening, or anti-DVD artifacting effects passes on them before displaying. This makes movies look beautiful, but is bad for games. At 16ms per frame, a 5 frame buffer costs a tenth of a second... usually enough to make you miss your note. I've seen delays as large as 200ms.

The sets also don't always keep audio and visual in sync after this process, sometimes failing to delay the audio or delaying the audio for too long. If you're relying on the sound for timing cues this can be painful.

Again, this is all invisible if you're not playing games which rely on precise sound cues. And not all HDTV's have a problem, as some of the ones we've tested have been really good (I can't remember the names, sadly). There is some more info on this on the FAQ link above.

Edit: This page (http://gear.ign.com/articles/720/720303p2.html) is a little out of date, but it might be helpful.

[Credge]

I believe you're referring to pixel up / down time here, which as you point out is basically unnoticeable.

The problem is how long the TV buffers frames before displaying them. Some HDTV's (primarily designed to play movies) will buffer up a lot of frames of video, then do anti-grain, edge sharpening, or anti-DVD artifacting effects passes on them before displaying. This makes movies look beautiful, but is bad for games. At 16ms per frame, a 5 frame buffer costs a tenth of a second... usually enough to make you miss your note. I've seen delays as large as 200ms.

The sets also don't always keep audio and visual in sync after this process, sometimes failing to delay the audio or delaying the audio for too long. If you're relying on the sound for timing cues this can be painful.

Again, this is all invisible if you're not playing games which rely on precise sound cues. And not all HDTV's have a problem, as some of the ones we've tested have been really good (I can't remember the names, sadly). There is some more info on this on the FAQ link above.

It seems that what I said was ignored. I'm not talking about pixel up/down time. I'm talking about what the human eye can see.

8ms is equivalent to about 2 and 2/3 of a fly beating his wings. Can you see this? No. It's simply too fast. Instead, you see a blur. Alternatively, 8ms is equal to 0.008 seconds. Any game that requires that short of a margin of error is simply poorly made.

That is not the case though. 0.008 seconds is not noticable. That is exactly how long 8ms is and anyone who says that they can notice this is lying. It's very simple.

I'm not talking about uncalibrated T.V.s. I'm talking about new T.V.'s that have about 5ms delay which is shorter than the time it takes a fly to beat its wings twice.

Anyone claiming to be able to notice this is lying. This is why I find this conversation to be absolutely silly.

Edit: Further, 8ms is equal to 1/3rd of a blink of an eye.

[jsorge]

First of all, some people will be able to FC expert songs regardless of the lag. They could probably do it blindfolded and just rely on the audio stream to get them through. Those are the same people who have 80%+ of all the expert songs FC'd.

Me on the other hand, I have only managed to FC a few of GH IIIs expert songs with no lag. I need every advantage I can to get my best scores, but there will always be people who will beat me.

The issue for me is when the video frames that respond from my controller inputs are displayed:

When I play on my CRT, the notes disappear as soon as I press the controller, because there is no inherent delay in the TV (no calibration is necessary).

When I play on a HDTV, there is a delay (because it needs to be initially calibrated) and even if the video and audio is synced from proper calibration, when I go to hit the strum bar when the note is lined up with the chart it takes time for the frames of video which show the controller input (disappearing notes) to display (because there is an inherent lag) and by that time, the note has partially passed over the chart line. This throws me off and I tend to alter my playing based on it, which ultimately leads to mistakes.

Does this make more sense now? This lag issue really ticks me off and I can assure you that I am not lying.

[PHiNiX]

the hdtv they used at my local best buy was horrible, i dont know what it was but the callibration on it was like a 77ms change

[lynx44]

All the Sharp's that I have used have noticeable lag. The Toshiba at my Uncle's house had noticeable lag. My 42" 1080p Magnavox does not have any noticeable lag, neither did the Sceptre that I had (which was one of the only nice parts about it, it died on me).

-Matt

[ibender]

There are 2 kinds of lag a TV can introduce. One is the response time of the display, which is usually the figure you see quoted in milliseconds (ms). The lower the better. This is not usually the kind of lag that causes problems in a music game, however it is the kind of lag that will make the scrolling text look blurry when playing as the singer.

The other kind is introduced by video processing that the TV is doing to make the picture look better. This is the kind of lag that really messes up guitar, bass and drums. It's stuff like noise reduction, dynamic brightness adjustment and rescaling the image to match the native resolution of the display.

A lot of newer HDTVs have a "game mode" which turns off all of this extra processing in order to eliminate lag. Personally, I have a 55" 1080p Samsung DLP, and when the game mode is enabled, there is zero lag. I have the 360 connected to the TV via the VGA connection, and the resolution on the Xbox is set to 1920x1080.

My audio is connected directly from the 360 to my receiver via the optical connection (it does not connect to the TV at all). I don't remember the name of the option exactly, but in Rock Band there is a setting to use some kind of "digital" audio or not (even though all audio to go over the optical connection is digital by definition, but whatever). I noticed significant audio lag behind the video when that option was turned on, so I turned it off. I am guessing that the lag was introduced by my receiver having to do some extra decoding or something.

Anyway, that's my setup. I hope it helps someone achieve lag-free gaming, because lag can totally kill a music game.

[jsorge]

There are 2 kinds of lag a TV can introduce. One is the response time of the display, which is usually the figure you see quoted in milliseconds (ms). The lower the better. This is not usually the kind of lag that causes problems in a music game, however it is the kind of lag that will make the scrolling text look blurry when playing as the singer.

The other kind is introduced by video processing that the TV is doing to make the picture look better. This is the kind of lag that really messes up guitar, bass and drums. It's stuff like noise reduction, dynamic brightness adjustment and rescaling the image to match the native resolution of the display.

A lot of newer HDTVs have a "game mode" which turns off all of this extra processing in order to eliminate lag. Personally, I have a 55" 1080p Samsung DLP, and when the game mode is enabled, there is zero lag. I have the 360 connected to the TV via the VGA connection, and the resolution on the Xbox is set to 1920x1080.

My audio is connected directly from the 360 to my receiver via the optical connection (it does not connect to the TV at all). I don't remember the name of the option exactly, but in Rock Band there is a setting to use some kind of "digital" audio or not (even though all audio to go over the optical connection is digital by definition, but whatever). I noticed significant audio lag behind the video when that option was turned on, so I turned it off. I am guessing that the lag was introduced by my receiver having to do some extra decoding or something.

Anyway, that's my setup. I hope it helps someone achieve lag-free gaming, because lag can totally kill a music game.

Excellent post!

I have seen improvements to reducing lag with game modes, but it still hasn't completely fixed the problem for me. Maybe I'm doing something wrong.

I have never tried the VGA connection before, but I have heard before that this may solve the problem, so maybe the combination of the two (VGA and game mode) can fix the problem well enough. If there is a current solution to the problem, I would bet that this is probably it.

My advice for everyone buying an HDTV:

If the lag issue is important enough that it's an HDTV deal-breaker, take your setup (console, connectors, controllers, game) to the electronics store and test out TV sets to see if the lag is sufficiently reduced. I would recommend trying a VGA connection in combination with the TVs game mode. Make sure you're happy with the setup before you buy anything!!

[Kess]

The problem with me isn't the video, when it comes to lag, but with the audio. In the drum fill sections, the sound of the notes I hit are about a half-step behind. Drives me crazy! And everyone that plays it, notices the lag - usually we all just leave the fill sections unplayed...as the lag screws up your rhythm for when you get back into the actual song. I run optical audio from the PS3 straight into my Sony 5.1 surround system. Maybe I should try a different audio hook up.

No calibrations setting have worked. I tried -300 ms, and it was actually almost right on, but then the written note parts of the song were waaaaaaay off. Mic vocals are also a half-step delayed as well. Not sure why. Went into RFoM last night, and my carbine shots are exactly in time to pushing the trigger. If only my tom toms in Rock Band could be as precise!

[Insignificant_Other]

The problem with me isn't the video, when it comes to lag, but with the audio. In the drum fill sections, the sound of the notes I hit are about a half-step behind. Drives me crazy! And everyone that plays it, notices the lag - usually we all just leave the fill sections unplayed...as the lag screws up your rhythm for when you get back into the actual song. I run optical audio from the PS3 straight into my Sony 5.1 surround system. Maybe I should try a different audio hook up.

No calibrations setting have worked. I tried -300 ms, and it was actually almost right on, but then the written note parts of the song were waaaaaaay off. Mic vocals are also a half-step delayed as well. Not sure why. Went into RFoM last night, and my carbine shots are exactly in time to pushing the trigger. If only my tom toms in Rock Band could be as precise!

I completely agree. I'm not sure it's possible to eliminate that drum fill lag, and it drives me batty, too, because I want to keep playing in the rhythm but the delayed audio response makes that impossible. I can see why they wanted the drum fills - it gives the drummer a way to ad lib, but I wish there was a way to turn them off and activate overdrive some other way. I just do the minimum drum fill necessary to make the crash note pop up now, because it does throw everyone off.

[Darkhorse4life]

A lot of time it depends how you are rigged up and on the game. When plugging into my Panasonic Plasma directly I need to make a larger lag adjustment (+30 ms offset) than when I'm plugged in through my Denon receiver (+15 ms offset).

Luckily most music games these days have offset lag sliders that go into the positives and negatives which is great.

Games that don't have a manual calibration or don't go into the negatives (below 0) make me cry :(.

[thrdeye]

The problem with me isn't the video, when it comes to lag, but with the audio. In the drum fill sections, the sound of the notes I hit are about a half-step behind. Drives me crazy! And everyone that plays it, notices the lag - usually we all just leave the fill sections unplayed...as the lag screws up your rhythm for when you get back into the actual song. I run optical audio from the PS3 straight into my Sony 5.1 surround system. Maybe I should try a different audio hook up.

No calibrations setting have worked. I tried -300 ms, and it was actually almost right on, but then the written note parts of the song were waaaaaaay off. Mic vocals are also a half-step delayed as well. Not sure why. Went into RFoM last night, and my carbine shots are exactly in time to pushing the trigger. If only my tom toms in Rock Band could be as precise!

This lag is occurring because the game doesn't know what drums you are going to hit during the fill, so it has to generate the sound as you hit the drum

Here's how you correct in on a PS3 - the lag is almost imperceptible this way. This corrects the vocal lag too.

Run your audio out of the PS3 through the standard composite cables (the red/white ones) straight into your receiver and run your video out through HDMI or whatever. You'll have to change some settings in the PS3 menus to tell the PS3 where to output sound and video.

Set your receiver to 2 channel stereo and disable dolby 5.1 in the rockband options.

If you set it up like this, you can still run surround sound on other games like RFoM by just flipping a few buttons instead of having to move cables around.

[thrdeye]

Oh and for the original poter, I'm running a 42 inch Hitachi plasma 1080 and the game plays perfectly with the default "Plasma" setting.

[Kess]

This lag is occurring because the game doesn't know what drums you are going to hit during the fill, so it has to generate the sound as you hit the drum

Here's how you correct in on a PS3 - the lag is almost imperceptible this way. This corrects the vocal lag too.

Run your audio out of the PS3 through the standard composite cables (the red/white ones) straight into your receiver and run your video out through HDMI or whatever. You'll have to change some settings in the PS3 menus to tell the PS3 where to output sound and video.

Set your receiver to 2 channel stereo and disable dolby 5.1 in the rockband options.

If you set it up like this, you can still run surround sound on other games like RFoM by just flipping a few buttons instead of having to move cables around.

Hey, thanks thrdeye! I did what you said, and yes it pretty much does fix the lag issue in the drum fill sections. It took me about an hour and a half fiddling around with new lag settings...waaaaaay different than my original settings, too...and I kept playing around until funny enough I settled on the LCD automatic settings. Checked out the mic, and it too is A LOT better! Yeah, I figured it was a "problem" with my optical connection. I wonder why, though. I would have thought optical would have had a faster response time.

Of course, now, the only trouble is I've lost my 5.1 Dolby digital sound. It was kinda cool hearing the audience clapping and cheering (and booing) behind me. Now everything's in stereo up front. The songs also sound a little narrower in their sound space. So the question is: cooler sound, or drum fill on time? Ha, will get back to you on that one!