Fan Cap Pros/Cons - Civil Discussion

[SoulScreme]

Our last discussion of this topic got way too heated. So, please listen the Thumper's mother and if you don't have anything nice to say, say nothing at all. Here are what I see as the pros and cons, feel free to add or disagree, civily.

Pros (I'm against it, so doing my best to play devil's advocate):

Encourages players to advance.
Keeps the leaderboards in check.
Hall of Fame induction and Endless Setlist are playable despite cap.


Cons:

Reached rather quickly.
Random song selection means going for more fans, but being hit with a super tough song and losing fans.
Buzzkill Factor
Alternative methods have been suggested for keeping leaderboards fair.
Some players will never play above difficulty X and thus can't experience all of the gigs/venues.

[MJDoja]

"Some players will never play above difficulty X and thus can't experience all of the gigs/venues."

Only thing i can see as a con. Thats why there are things like difficulty settings, replay value, and a learning curve.

Another con is that my 80 year old grandma and 4 year old niece who have never heard any of the songs can't even play the song on easy without a bass pedal, let alone when were playing BWT party/story mode, we end up playing say it aint so forever cuz grams and baby are never gonna be able to play a videogame on a higher level than the easiest one. theyre simple like that.

[Hanika]

I feel we should let it go, It's been discussed enough.
Hardcore crowd likes it.
Most Everyone else doesn't.

I've now played the Hall of Fame induction with my family on Medium. Feel I beat the mode.
It's dissapointing since actually the Fan thing woulda been cool to have working from the get go for every difficulty. Since the casual crowd would never be able to keep up with the experts anyway on the leaderboards.
The fun of everyone enjoying the Fan leaderboards. Kinda like a way to show how long you've been playing. But, even if it was fixed it would be pointless at this point to me. We've been at the cap for what?...2 weeks.

The elites would always own every leaderboard. To cater only to them seems lame.
Like every game.

It just sucks to not have seperate boards. To see your Medium band against others.

Oh, and even after the hall of fame we played a couple gigs, and my wife and kids still see the "0 Fans" and go
"Whatever"

Anyway's, I'm no longer a part of this debate. I already said more here then I was going to. So ignore my post. lol

[SoulScreme]

Good points all, though I do think that the speed at which it's reached is a fairly valid con.

[SoulScreme]

I feel we should let it go, It's been discussed enough.
Hardcore crowd likes it.
Most Everyone else doesn't.

I've now played the Hall of Fame induction with my family on Medium. Feel I beat the mode.
It's dissapointing since actually the Fan thing woulda been cool to have working from the get go for every difficulty. Since the casual crowd would never be able to keep up with the experts anyway on the leaderboards.
The fun of everyone enjoying the Fan leaderboards. Kinda like a way to show how long you've been playing. But, even if it was fixed it would be pointless at this point to me. We've been at the cap for what?...2 weeks.

The elites would always own every leaderboard. To cater only to them seems lame.
Like every game.

It just sucks to not have seperate boards. To see your Medium band against others.

Oh, and even after the hall of fame we played a couple gigs, and my wife and kids still see the "0 Fans" and go
"Whatever"

Anyway's, I'm no longer a part of this debate. I already said more here then I was going to. So ignore my post. lol

I simply wanted to consolidate the points, possibly update my list, without the name calling, as a point of reference for new comers.

[ManOwaR]

generally people who play on one of the lower levels of a game play with the understanding they won't be on a leaderboard.. I guess not here.

I bet you there will be a code somewhere down the road that unlocks whatever it is you think you aren't getting by being capped on fans.

Good luck, have fun, enjoy the game.

[CCBacara]

Ya know what, it does not matter what the Pros and Cons are. The situation is simply this:

We the fans have had a 60+ page thread debate.
We have voted with 600+ replies.
The majority want to see this change made.

Now, will the majority of the fans get what they want, or will the game remain unchanged for the hardcore gamers. Time will tell.

[TheTogfather]

This is a tricky one, because I can easily see both sides of the argument, and they both have very valid points. Harmonix had to make a decision, and this is what they went with. They haven't failed me yet in any way, so I'm willing to let them go with this one. This is their vision for their game.

[SoulScreme]

This is a tricky one, because I can easily see both sides of the argument, and they both have very valid points. Harmonix had to make a decision, and this is what they went with. They haven't failed me yet in any way, so I'm willing to let them go with this one. This is their vision for their game.

I agree, I do see issues with it, and I would like it changed, but I totally see both sides as valid.

[Nekura20x6]

Why not make it a choice? Let the gamer decide which path they prefer with maybe a special unlockable item or achievement if you elect to go harder core? (If they add this as an XBL pack, they would be able to create a new achievement as part of that.)

I played this with my family over Thanksgiving and we stuck to Quick Play specifically because of this issue. This could be a monster hit with the casual gaming crowd with this one exception.

[DesiredFX]

Ya know what, it does not matter what the Pros and Cons are. The situation is simply this:

We the fans have had a 60+ page thread debate.
We have voted with 600+ replies.
The majority want to see this change made.

Now, will the majority of the fans get what they want, or will the game remain unchanged for the hardcore gamers. Time will tell.

And the problem is still this: it's the majority of fans on this board who cared enough to vote on the topic.

Now if the cap gets removed and suddently there's a 60+ page thread of debate saying "put the fan cap back" and 600 or more people vote in the majority to put it back, should Harmonix change it back?

As I said in that thread several times, all the poll did was alert Harmonix to some concerns. It's still in their hands--since it's not a Democracy--whether to change it or not. If they feel retaining the Fan Caps keeps the gameplay balance the way they want it, with the right amount of stuff "below the line" for casual players and the right amount "above the line" for people who want a challenge, they're not going to change it.

[SoulScreme]

Why not make it a choice? Let the gamer decide which path they prefer with maybe a special unlockable item or achievement if you elect to go harder core? (If they add this as an XBL pack, they would be able to create a new achievement as part of that.)

I played this with my family over Thanksgiving and we stuck to Quick Play specifically because of this issue. This could be a monster hit with the casual gaming crowd with this one exception.

Wow, that's a pretty cool idea. Like diamond encrusted instruments or something.

[flatsinki]

Why not make it a choice? Let the gamer decide which path they prefer with maybe a special unlockable item or achievement if you elect to go harder core? (If they add this as an XBL pack, they would be able to create a new achievement as part of that.)

I played this with my family over Thanksgiving and we stuck to Quick Play specifically because of this issue. This could be a monster hit with the casual gaming crowd with this one exception.

I like this idea as well. If they were to handle it similar to how Diablo 2 handled Hardcore vs regular (like separate leaderboards, and the additional rewards for those who take the hardcore route you mentioned) I think it could work out to keep everyone happy.

[Bakkster]

We the fans have had a 60+ page thread debate.
We have voted with 600+ replies.
The majority want to see this change made.

Now, will the majority of the fans get what they want, or will the game remain unchanged for the hardcore gamers. Time will tell.

I wouldn't say a "majority" want it changed, just "a lot". Surveys are hard enough to balance, a forum poll is impossible.


Now if the cap gets removed and suddently there's a 60+ page thread of debate saying "put the fan cap back" and 600 or more people vote in the majority to put it back, should Harmonix change it back?

As I said in that thread several times, all the poll did was alert Harmonix to some concerns. It's still in their hands--since it's not a Democracy--whether to change it or not. If they feel retaining the Fan Caps keeps the gameplay balance the way they want it, with the right amount of stuff "below the line" for casual players and the right amount "above the line" for people who want a challenge, they're not going to change it.

Exactly. HMX does listen to these things and take them into account. HO/POs are a great example. They were too hard to do in GH and people complained, so they made them easier in GH2. HMX has 900+ posts worth of discussion on the topic, I think that's enough for them to weight the pros-cons themselves when they go to design an update or sequel to BWT.

[Stevenam81]

"Some players will never play above difficulty X and thus can't experience all of the gigs/venues."

Only thing i can see as a con. Thats why there are things like difficulty settings, replay value, and a learning curve.

Another con is that my 80 year old grandma and 4 year old niece who have never heard any of the songs can't even play the song on easy without a bass pedal, let alone when were playing BWT party/story mode, we end up playing say it aint so forever cuz grams and baby are never gonna be able to play a videogame on a higher level than the easiest one. theyre simple like that.

Man....I'm so sick of hearing about 80 year old grandmas and 4 year olds not being able to play. Most 80 year olds don't even have the coordination, speed, or endurance for this game. I'd be surprised if many 80 year olds even like the songs. Maybe it's different for you, but I don't even know any people over 70 that wouldn't play a song or two, say it was fun, and not want to play anymore. The ones I know would be like, "oh, that wore me out. I can't keep up with that. What are they going to think of next."

As for 4 year olds. I mean the game is rated Teen. None of the instruments are designed with them in mind. This reminds me of the "blood and fatalities" being removed from Mortal Kombat because little kids wanted to play it. Most 4 year olds don't even have the attention span to sit there and play BWT mode, much less care about how many fans they have or how far along in the game they are. They are most likely just having fun playing the game.

Now...if they are the ones upset and complaining about this because they are so dissapointed they reached the fan limit and can't progress, that's one thing. But if they don't even care or understand they've reached a limit and this is just you complaining and using them as an excuse then you do have options. You can play BWT by yourself doing guitar and vocals at the same time. It's a lot of fun. Or you can play with friends who aren't wearing diapers.

I love the game as is. I can't stand how liberal this world is getting. No, everything can't be for everyone. I remember a time when failure was motivation for improving. Not anymore. If someone fails, then it just must be too hard or impossible.

[SoulScreme]

Man....I'm so sick of hearing about 80 year old grandmas and 4 year olds not being able to play. Most 80 year olds don't even have the coordination, speed, or endurance for this game. I'd be surprised if many 80 year olds even like the songs. Maybe it's different for you, but I don't even know any people over 70 that wouldn't play a song or two, say it was fun, and not want to play anymore. The ones I know would be like, "oh, that wore me out. I can't keep up with that. What are they going to think of next."

As for 4 year olds. I mean the game is rated Teen. None of the instruments are designed with them in mind. This reminds me of the "blood and fatalities" being removed from Mortal Kombat because little kids wanted to play it. Most 4 year olds don't even have the attention span to sit there and play BWT mode, much less care about how many fans they have or how far along in the game they are. They are most likely just having fun playing the game.

Now...if they are the ones upset and complaining about this because they are so dissapointed they reached the fan limit and can't progress, that's one thing. But if they don't even care or understand they've reached a limit and this is just you complaining and using them as an excuse then you do have options. You can play BWT by yourself doing guitar and vocals at the same time. It's a lot of fun. Or you can play with friends who aren't wearing diapers.

I love the game as is. I can't stand how liberal this world is getting. No, everything can't be for everyone. I remember a time when failure was motivation for improving. Not anymore. If someone fails, then it just must be too hard or impossible.

Well, please stay on topic, we're discussing pros and cons, not whether or not liberals are destroying gaming.

[Maggot_Brain]

Getting close to flamewar again.

Just give the players more choices. Why be so stubborn about everything?

[Oblong]

Now if the cap gets removed and suddently there's a 60+ page thread of debate saying "put the fan cap back" and 600 or more people vote in the majority to put it back, should Harmonix change it back?



Seriously doubt that. Why would anyone want fans capped at all?

It's already been shown that people can earn ungodly numbers of fans, 40 million+, just by playing the same songs over and over again, so why not let it go uncapped?


It doesn't even have to be one way or the other as the idea I came up with was to offer BWT Sim (same as it is now, with a cap) and BWT Arcade (no cap, no locked venues based on difficulty, leaderboards and achievements disabled). Something there for hardcores who want ranking and also for casuals who just want to experience the meat of the game.

So simple.

[Stevenam81]

Ya know what, it does not matter what the Pros and Cons are. The situation is simply this:

We the fans have had a 60+ page thread debate.
We have voted with 600+ replies.
The majority want to see this change made.

Now, will the majority of the fans get what they want, or will the game remain unchanged for the hardcore gamers. Time will tell.

Guess what. It would not be the majority of fans. It would be the majority of whiners. Forums are where people gather together to complain. Many people read these boards all the time who aren't members. They are not going to register just to vote on something that they know is not going to change. They are probably just laughing at you guys. Same thing goes for the ones that are registered. They have better things to do than vote on an unofficial poll. Like actually playing Rock Band and enjoying it. 600 replies out of the thousands who own this game is nothing. Anyway, like I said. People mainly come to the forums when they have a problem with something and are looking for answers. You don't visit the doctor once a week when you are completely healthy do you?

There are people who just like checking the forum often to keep up with news and accouncements. I understand that. But for the most part, it's just a place to complain.

Your statement about the majority wanting to see a change doesn't hold water. That is like going to a Pantera concert and asking everyone there if they like rap music. Of course 99% of them are going to say they can't stand it. In order to call it a majority, everyone has to vote. Or at least like 80% of us. Not 1% or below.

[Stevenam81]

Exactly. HMX does listen to these things and take them into account. HO/POs are a great example. They were too hard to do in GH and people complained, so they made them easier in GH2. HMX has 900+ posts worth of discussion on the topic, I think that's enough for them to weight the pros-cons themselves when they go to design an update or sequel to BWT.

Yeah, you're right. I guess those hammer ons and pull offs were pretty tough in Guitar Hero. You know...considering the fact that they weren't even a feature in the game. HO/POs weren't even possible until GH2. And HO/POs are actually a logical improvement since they are involved in playing the guitar. I'm sure there really weren't any cons with adding them. This fan cap issue is a whole different story. It's not a gameplay mechanic. They could completely rework the entire fan thing from the ground up for a sequel if they wanted to without affecting how the game is played.

[SoulScreme]

Yeah, you're right. I guess those hammer ons and pull offs were pretty tough in Guitar Hero. You know...considering the fact that they weren't even a feature in the game. HO/POs weren't even possible until GH2. And HO/POs are actually a logical improvement since they are involved in playing the guitar. I'm sure there really weren't any cons with adding them. This fan cap issue is a whole different story. It's not a gameplay mechanic. They could completely rework the entire fan thing from the ground up for a sequel if they wanted to without affecting how the game is played.

Umm, no, they were in the first game, the mechanic was just more difficult to handle.

[Oblong]

But for the most part, it's just a place to complain.



Come around here much?

I joined a few weeks before release and would say that the forums here have been anything BUT a "for the most part just a place to complain" type of forum.

Don't believe me? Why not just scan a few pages of these forum topics and you will see your argument falls flat on it's face.

[sporkBrigade]

I hate that I've been labeled Hardcore all of a sudden because of all this. I think that's one of the most unfortunate concepts that's been pushed forward from the anti fan cap camp. Here's my "Hardcore" band.

Myself, expert guitars and Hard drums from day one. I guess that's the upper end of everything, but doesn't really scream Hardcore for me. Then there's my Girlfriend. Medium Guitars, Medium drums, Hard vocals. Maybe you need to have a 5 minute conversation with her first, but calling her Hardcore is beyond laughable. Two best friends, floating in that awkward hard/expert zone for Guitars, easy/medium Drums, and Medium vocals.

Now, because we worked at it, we're past the Hard cap with all of us playing our best instruments. But we seriously had to work at it. High Fives occured when we succeeded. As soon as we rotate and try different instruments, this ability goes up in a puff of smoke and we're right back down to Mediums and Easy. There's nothing Hardcore about this group, I assure you. When Blackened randomly comes up, no matter what difficulty we're on, we fail out, just like you guys.

Fan caps pushed us to get better. Because of the Fan Caps, when we achieve certain goals, they feel good. The Game is deeper and when we think of the future, it has a lifespan the likes I've never seen before in a co-op experience. No fan caps just turns BWT into a shallow, flaky party game. That of course is what some of you want, but it's not what I want, and there's nothing Hardcore about that. I want BWT to be a challenging campaign with a long life span. It achieves that. I want Quickplay to be a Flaky shallow party experience. Again, this has been achieved.

Just my two cents. Not talking down to anyone, not claiming anyone is a n00b, and none of this has anything to do with Hardcore vs. Casual. It's just a better game as is.

[sporkBrigade]

Yeah, you're right. I guess those hammer ons and pull offs were pretty tough in Guitar Hero. You know...considering the fact that they weren't even a feature in the game. HO/POs weren't even possible until GH2. And HO/POs are actually a logical improvement since they are involved in playing the guitar. I'm sure there really weren't any cons with adding them. This fan cap issue is a whole different story. It's not a gameplay mechanic. They could completely rework the entire fan thing from the ground up for a sequel if they wanted to without affecting how the game is played.

Er, Guitar Hero had Hammer ons and Pull offs. Sorry brother, you're misinformed. His analogy is actually perfectly valid. HOs POs used to work out much more realisticaly. For a three note pull off, you had to hold all three buttons down first, then pull off one by one. The timing window was also insanely tight. Combined, this meant they weren't used often, but they were in fact there. A lot of people complained, and in GH2 they changed it. They made it so the window was much looser, in comparison, and also made it so you could just "tap" the pattern, instead of the true "Pull off" they had going on before.

So the analogy is just fine. It was a feature in the game that pissed people off, people complained, they changed it. ::Shrug:: I don't agree that this Fan Cap is actually an issue, but it would be a pretty similiar situation if it changed in RB2.

[Stevenam81]

Come around here much?

I joined a few weeks before release and would say that the forums here have been anything BUT a "for the most part just a place to complain" type of forum.

Don't believe me? Why not just scan a few pages of these forum topics and you will see your argument falls flat on it's face.

Like I said, I understand some people just check it out for news and announcements. And I'm talking about forums in general. I was using it to make a point that just because the majority of people on a forum don't like something, it doesn't mean that is really the majority.

Yes, I know this forum has many great posts. It's one of the only reasons I still come here. I completely stopped going to the Guitar Hero forum. This forum is an exception in most cases. There is always something good to read. But that doesn't change the fact that forums are a place for people to complain. So for my argument to "fall flat on its face" you would have to convince me that people DO NOT mainly go to forums (any forum) because they have issues with something or to complain. Good luck with that. You got all wrapped up in what I said about forums and missed my point I guess.

[barbasol]

Just reduce the fan gain.

My problem was never that certain cities/venues were locked, or that there was an incentive to move to a higher difficulty, it was that the fan cap system seems like a pretty poor way to give incentive. Or rather, that the pacing of gaining fans happens way too fast, so you hit the cap too early for it to be effective. We hit the medium cap very early on, a good deal before we were ready to up our difficulty, and before we had played even half of the venues at medium (or possibly only a quarter—I don't remember exactly).

When you're sitting at the cap, you stop caring about fans at all, losing fans doesn't make much of a difference because you can just regain them, challenges become meaningless, etc. The fan system is the new addition to Rock Band beyond stars/points/money so it's a shame to hit the cap and have it essentially removed as a gameplay element.

So to me, the simplest and most likely to happen fix is to reduce the fan gain dramatically. If you hit the cap much later in the BWT, many of the drawbacks of the cap disappear, and you're much more ready to go up a difficulty when you do hit the cap.


I liked some of the alternative ideas though. According to this thread, fans are already awarded based on difficulty chosen, star rating for the song, and also have diminishing returns for repeating the same gig.
http://community.rockband.com/vbforum/showthread.php?p=160498

If they tweaked it so playing on harder difficulties gained you 3-5x the amount of fans (maybe that's already there?), then you wouldn't really need a cap to differentiate skill. Harder difficulties would naturally have a ton more fans and the leaderboards wouldn't get clogged at the caps. I wouldn't see a problem then with letting "medium" players eventually unlock the "hard" venues. It would take 3-5x as long... possibly even too long for "casuals" to ever reach which would be ok. And there'd be a huge incentive to go to a harder difficulty.

If some venues had to absolutely be locked out, you could make them so you can only play them on hard/expert difficulties. How does it work anyway, is Medium or Easy available in Tokyo?

[Oblong]

Like I said, I understand some people just check it out for news and announcements. And I'm talking about forums in general. I was using it to make a point that just because the majority of people on a forum don't like something, it doesn't mean that is really the majority.

Yes, I know this forum has many great posts. It's one of the only reasons I still come here. I completely stopped going to the Guitar Hero forum. This forum is an exception in most cases. There is always something good to read. But that doesn't change the fact that forums are a place for people to complain. So for my argument to "fall flat on its face" you would have to convince me that people DO NOT mainly go to forums (any forum) because they have issues with something or to complain. Good luck with that. You got all wrapped up in what I said about forums and missed my point I guess.


No I got your point. You said the Rock Band fan cap poll was invalid because people come to forums to complain. Yet you admit this forum is the exception, so your statement that the poll in THIS forum is invalid because of what you see in other forums makes your statement invalid.

Appearantly it's you who missed my point.

[Frederf]

He's just saying GH's HOPOs were pretty much as difficulty as to be considered not possible.

Even in the contemporary GH/RB HOPOs there's still that unrealistically too-hard niggle that if you miss one note of your HOPO that suddenly your string stops vibrating. I mean that plain doesn't make sense.

As for the fan caps, it's tricky. I mean the fans don't really work in the game anything resembling real life. You gain them too fast, hit a hard number, then keep going later once you "bring the noise" so to speak. It's cool that fans means something instead of being air and water plentiful. As interesting as options and more modes goes, it sounds good at first but it rather makes the game unfocused and makes everyone's play experience so different. If you can't order a pizza with your friends and agree on toppings, how can you possibly agree on your months-long BWT band difficulty settings? It sounds backward, but I'd rather a game be one thing that I didn't 100% agree with than have two dozen options on how I want to play.

I really enjoy the pressure the game delivers. Trucking through 100% of the game on medium would be a severe let down. Knowing that the game has some kicking bits waiting has prevented me from getting complacent and bored. I'm also glad that I'm not encouraged to stick to 5*ing medium songs for teh high scorez. That would suck, although I hear that's what competitive online is like.

The fan minigame, double or nothing fans, charity gigs, etc are all rather meh. It's just not really exciting or tempting to try for 2x fans when you're going to get like 48,000 fans in a single set anyway which will probably get you up to the cap if you're not already at it.

I think ideally fans would keep coming regardless of difficulty but it should get harder and harder to maintain them with a low difficulty. Up near 500,000 fans on easy it should just be a plain house of cards and a complete rollercoaster ride, losing lots of fans on failures/medicores and gaining less on good performances. Eventually the band will come to the decision "Hey guys, this is nuts and very unstable. Let's bump it up to medium or hard to make our fan base more solid." That would be risk/reward and up-difficulty encouragement on a more subtle and yet probably equally as effective scale.

Fans should also probably be a function of how widespread you are globally. Tackling a new city should be way to get a lot of new fans that haven't heard of you previously while the hometown folks have all heard you and any that would be your fan are already your fan. Same with the first time you play a new song. Same with the first time you play a certain set. Listening to myself my ideas smack of fans as progress indicators and not solely as a reflection of difficulty, and really fans should naturally be a result of a composition of factors.

[DesiredFX]

Fans should also probably be a function of how widespread you are globally. Tackling a new city should be way to get a lot of new fans that haven't heard of you previously while the hometown folks have all heard you and any that would be your fan are already your fan. Same with the first time you play a new song. Same with the first time you play a certain set. Listening to myself my ideas smack of fans as progress indicators and not solely as a reflection of difficulty, and really fans should naturally be a result of a composition of factors.

The way the fan number works in the game is as a distilled simplification of all the complexities that go into gaining and losing fans. There's no option in the game for your guitarist to make an idiotic sexist comment on MTV and lose you the support of a large number of your female fans. There's no option for the singer to show up wasted, be unable to perform and puke on the people in the front row. There's no obligatory record store signings that may get people listening to your music.

This is not meant to be a simulation of the music industry, so the fan factors are kept very simple and the primary factor that goes into their numbers is the fickleness: they bail on you quickly when you play badly, and they won't keep coming if you don't play music more skillfully than what they can hear from a covers band at a high school dance.

It's not realistic, but it's not really supposed to be--it's meant to be a tool that affects how big the arenas you can play are. There are other factors--points and stars--to measure the quality of your play in absolute and relative terms, and both of those factors show up in the solo tour mode. Fans are unique to BWT because fans impact where you can play and when.

[barbasol]

...
I think ideally fans would keep coming regardless of difficulty but it should get harder and harder to maintain them with a low difficulty. Up near 500,000 fans on easy it should just be a plain house of cards and a complete rollercoaster ride, losing lots of fans on failures/medicores and gaining less on good performances. Eventually the band will come to the decision "Hey guys, this is nuts and very unstable. Let's bump it up to medium or hard to make our fan base more solid." That would be risk/reward and up-difficulty encouragement on a more subtle and yet probably equally as effective scale.

Fans should also probably be a function of how widespread you are globally. Tackling a new city should be way to get a lot of new fans that haven't heard of you previously while the hometown folks have all heard you and any that would be your fan are already your fan. Same with the first time you play a new song. Same with the first time you play a certain set. Listening to myself my ideas smack of fans as progress indicators and not solely as a reflection of difficulty, and really fans should naturally be a result of a composition of factors.

I like some of those ideas. The interesting thing about fans compared to score/stars/money is that you can lose them. So they have an opportunity to be more a reflection of consistency. Maybe replaying a song (regardless of gig/setlist) at the same difficulty should allow you to lose fans if you end up with a lower star rating.

I like the fan challenges a lot, but agree it is generally too easy to get fans which diminishes their impact... I mean the fan number generally goes straight up just like any other score. They are still fun though.

So I want the fan cap removed but I think fans are too easy to get... sound contradictory? Generally, I wish there was a little more strategy related to fans. Hard to think of something with simple rules but still has depth. I haven't really been able to come up with anything so I don't fault Harmonix any. :)

[Stevenam81]

No I got your point. You said the Rock Band fan cap poll was invalid because people come to forums to complain. Yet you admit this forum is the exception, so your statement that the poll in THIS forum is invalid because of what you see in other forums makes your statement invalid.

Appearantly it's you who missed my point.

Come on man, give it up. Stop playing word games and turning everything around. Yes this forum is an exception as in there are a lot more positive posts. For the most part the only people who are going to vote are the ones that want to see a change. Forums, in general, are typically a place where people gather to complain. This forum is no exception. It is however different than most forums because there are also many good posts and positive things. It's not just all complaints. So that is the exception. And I can already see your next post saying. "You just said it's not an exception and then said it is. Which is it?" Don't waste your time.

I didn't miss your point. But my point is the poll is NOT valid because 90% of the ones voting are the ones complaining about it because they actually think their petty little poll is going to make Harmonix rewrite the game for them. I don't think they should change the fan cap but I'm not running to the poll to cast my vote. If Harmonix made the poll and said its official and that they would change it with enough votes then yeah, I would vote as would many others. As it is now, its just a petition. We can play word games all day long, but if you think 600 people out of thousands is the majority then I can see how you think I'm wrong.

[SoulScreme]

I didn't miss your point. But my point is the poll is NOT valid because 90% of the ones voting are the ones complaining about it because they actually think their petty little poll is going to make Harmonix rewrite the game for them. I don't think they should change the fan cap but I'm not running to the poll to cast my vote. If Harmonix made the poll and said its official and that they would change it with enough votes then yeah, I would vote as would many others. As it is now, its just a petition. We can play word games all day long, but if you think 600 people out of thousands is the majority then I can see how you think I'm wrong.

Do you want this thread locked? By posting here I thought you agreed to be civil? Please, stop calling other users name and getting all riled up. Keep it calm, cool, and mature.

[surgesnugs]

Why not make it a choice? Let the gamer decide which path they prefer with maybe a special unlockable item or achievement if you elect to go harder core? (If they add this as an XBL pack, they would be able to create a new achievement as part of that.)

I played this with my family over Thanksgiving and we stuck to Quick Play specifically because of this issue. This could be a monster hit with the casual gaming crowd with this one exception.

This sums up my opinion pretty concisely. I always thought the ability to select difficulty levels was the way a game let you tailor the overall experience, while the game itself ramps up in relative difficulty regardless of the overall difficulty level chosen. That's the way most games, including Guitar Hero work. To have the game steadily add more difficult songs to your potential set lists, and then suddenly also ask you to up the overall difficulty level is too harsh.

It just seems strange to me that EA/HMX has this huge potential casual gaming market hit, and they decide to make it a hardcore game for no real understandable reason. Pretty stupid if you ask me.

[DesiredFX]

It just seems strange to me that EA/HMX has this huge potential casual gaming market hit, and they decide to make it a hardcore game for no real understandable reason. Pretty stupid if you ask me.

It doesn't make it a hardcore game. It makes the casual and hardcore game experiences overlap instead of being handled separately.

You can "finish" the game while stuck at the medium cap--you just can't explore every corner of it. That experience is left for either the hardcore gamers or for those who want to try to step up their skill at the game.

[sporkBrigade]

If some venues had to absolutely be locked out, you could make them so you can only play them on hard/expert difficulties. How does it work anyway, is Medium or Easy available in Tokyo?

No, Medium and Easy are not available in Tokyo. Everything there has a set requirement of Hard.

The rest of your post brings up valid points, by the way, except that I still don't believe Fans are actually the problem. If you take this time to rebalance fans, I think people will still just have a problem with the skill walls in place. It might not be a bad idea. Make the pill easier to swallow. But it's still just a core difference in philosophy. Some people want a shallow party game, some people want a challenging campaign.

A better solution in my opinion is to flesh out quickplay. First and foremost, rename it to "Party Mode." Make it less confusing as to what it's for. BWT isn't for your grandma and 4 year old, Quickplay is. The other important element is to let people choose their venue in Quickplay. Fact is, if you want to play in Tokyo, you can. But it is totally random with Quickplay the way it is now. Give people the option to choose it, and you've put the power back into their hands.

That's how I see it, anyway. Fact is, I disagree with any attempt to shallow the BWT experience. It's not for parties, period, it never was. I truely don't think changes to how Fans work will have a satisfying and long lasting effect, but I'm not truely opposed to it.

[sporkBrigade]

This sums up my opinion pretty concisely. I always thought the ability to select difficulty levels was the way a game let you tailor the overall experience, while the game itself ramps up in relative difficulty regardless of the overall difficulty level chosen. That's the way most games, including Guitar Hero work. To have the game steadily add more difficult songs to your potential set lists, and then suddenly also ask you to up the overall difficulty level is too harsh.

It just seems strange to me that EA/HMX has this huge potential casual gaming market hit, and they decide to make it a hardcore game for no real understandable reason. Pretty stupid if you ask me.

The casual market doesn't need a campaign mode. They need Quickplay. This exists in the game, so I truely don't see how this is a "Hardcore" game. There are challenges available within the game, but they are all optional. You're not required to do any of it.

It's not stupid at all. Deep long lasting games always have element of challenge to them. Wii sports is the perfect example of a great, shallow party game. I love busting it out any time I have a random group of people there who aren't really gamers, but I know they'll enjoy themselves. Do I play Wii sports every day? Oh god no, the game is actually terrible. It's shallow, simple, and mind boggling boring in the long term. But Jesus it makes a great party game.

Shallow Party games make great Party games, not great games. RockBand is both, but only if you open your eyes to the possibilities within Quickplay.

[Frederf]

The way the fan number works in the game is as a distilled simplification of all the complexities that go into gaining and losing fans. There's no option in the game for your guitarist to make an idiotic sexist comment on MTV and lose you the support of a large number of your female fans. There's no option for the singer to show up wasted, be unable to perform and puke on the people in the front row. There's no obligatory record store signings that may get people listening to your music.

This is not meant to be a simulation of the music industry, so the fan factors are kept very simple and the primary factor that goes into their numbers is the fickleness: they bail on you quickly when you play badly, and they won't keep coming if you don't play music more skillfully than what they can hear from a covers band at a high school dance.

It's not realistic, but it's not really supposed to be--it's meant to be a tool that affects how big the arenas you can play are. There are other factors--points and stars--to measure the quality of your play in absolute and relative terms, and both of those factors show up in the solo tour mode. Fans are unique to BWT because fans impact where you can play and when.

Of course the fan system is greatly simplified from reality, so many things affect how many fans you have in reality that the game simply doesn't take into account. Also losing fans for a stupid MTV comment would be obtuse and frustrating to penalize the player for something beyond their control.

I myself have reminded people that the fans are a game mechanic to classify your band and used to control your access to certain features. I don't think fans are unique in impacting where you can play and when, certainly stars (if not some other goodies) have as much if not more impact than fans in determining when/where you play.

Where I disagree is with the line "not realistic, not really supposed to be." Surely fans are primarily a score and a game mechanic and fan factors have to be limited to the scope of the game but that's not to say that the fan system couldn't be made more in turn with reality while still operating under those constraints. Softening the hard right angle from skyrocketing fan gains to no fan gains is just an example of a really minor edit that could make fans more realistic without impacting the mechanics or features of the fan system at all.


I like some of those ideas. The interesting thing about fans compared to score/stars/money is that you can lose them. So they have an opportunity to be more a reflection of consistency. Maybe replaying a song (regardless of gig/setlist) at the same difficulty should allow you to lose fans if you end up with a lower star rating.

Losing fans is really pretty cool in Rock Band, it needs to happen more often to more people. I'm unsure of the maths exactly but some sort of "failing to live up to expectations" might be possible. I think playing a song you should have ace'd poorly should result in a slight fan dip. There should be more ways to lose fans than simply blowing a song, backing out of a gig.

The poll lacks perfect accuracy for a number of reasons, one of the primary ones is the extreme viewpoints expressed by the two-and-only-two options. They seemed to be "don't change the game at all!" and "make the game into an unlimited fan grab-a-thon" honestly neither of which I'd like.

The fact that DLC content can only be accessed (in BWT) either on Hard or as a potluck in a Mystery Set List is pretty dumb (assuming you haven't done the rather nonsensical and misguided unlock in Solo thing).


The rest of your post brings up valid points, by the way, except that I still don't believe Fans are actually the problem. If you take this time to rebalance fans, I think people will still just have a problem with the skill walls in place. It might not be a bad idea. Make the pill easier to swallow. But it's still just a core difference in philosophy. Some people want a shallow party game, some people want a challenging campaign.

A better solution in my opinion is to flesh out quickplay. First and foremost, rename it to "Party Mode." Make it less confusing as to what it's for. BWT isn't for your grandma and 4 year old, Quickplay is. The other important element is to let people choose their venue in Quickplay. Fact is, if you want to play in Tokyo, you can. But it is totally random with Quickplay the way it is now. Give people the option to choose it, and you've put the power back into their hands.

That's how I see it, anyway. Fact is, I disagree with any attempt to shallow the BWT experience. It's not for parties, period, it never was. I truely don't think changes to how Fans work will have a satisfying and long lasting effect, but I'm not truely opposed to it.

I have to agree with this. Quickplay was aging when introduced in Guitar Hero 1, it's practically Jurassic now. Stripped-down no-feature play has no place in a game designed with a band-campaign mode with truly rigmarole-level complication in teams of band leaders, instruments, and challenges.

Don't bulldozer the mountain to spite the mountain climbers when there's a perfectly good field right next to it for the lazy Sunday park goers. All the park needs is a few more trees and a fountain so it's a nice place to be.

[DesiredFX]

I myself have reminded people that the fans are a game mechanic to classify your band and used to control your access to certain features. I don't think fans are unique in impacting where you can play and when, certainly stars (if not some other goodies) have as much if not more impact than fans in determining when/where you play.

I meant fans were "unique to BWT" as opposed to the Solo Tour, which still features stars and points (though doesn't depend on them to unlock anything), but has no fan count.

And stars definitely have more of an impact in BWT than fans--stars are the whole reason why completing BWT on Medium is possible.

[Bakkster]

The fact that DLC content can only be accessed (in BWT) either on Hard or as a potluck in a Mystery Set List is pretty dumb (assuming you haven't done the rather nonsensical and misguided unlock in Solo thing).

That's not true. I have played DLC in Make-a-setlist with players on easy. Perhaps you are referring to unlocking the bonus songs? In that case, I suggest people play through the campaign for ALL unlocking, otherwise BWT starts with playing the same 3 songs repeatedly. The same goes for bonus songs.


Don't bulldozer the mountain to spite the mountain climbers when there's a perfectly good field right next to it for the lazy Sunday park goers. All the park needs is a few more trees and a fountain so it's a nice place to be.

Well put. I don't fault HMX for lacking band-type features for casual play in their first game, but it should probably be expected at a later date.

[sporkBrigade]

Don't bulldozer the mountain to spite the mountain climbers when there's a perfectly good field right next to it for the lazy Sunday park goers. All the park needs is a few more trees and a fountain so it's a nice place to be.

I have a deep seeded love for analogies that resonate. This one was good. Bravo.

[LordFlatus]

The only problem I have with the fan cap is the pacing of it: you max out way too early in your tour.

Like others here, I have a wife that is not a gamer yet enjoys RockBand. She's made a character and given it tats, and she likes BWT mode. She is barely proficient enough at the guitar on Easy to pass songs, yet we still maxed out our fans and she is nowhere near ready to play medium. That's fine, but it takes away some of the fun when is struggling on the mid-level sets of Easy yet the game is telling us that she needs to move up to Medium.

All I'm saying is it would be "funner" if either we earned fans at a lower rate so that they don't max-out so fast, or else the caps and "unlock totals" were tripled or quadrupled for the same effect.

I don't want it all. I don't threaten anybody's standing on their precious leaderboards. I have no aspirations of conquering Xbox live with my wife. We are just having fun, and being able to keep earning fans longer in the tour would be funner.

On a related note, my son and I have been BWTing and hit the Medium fan cap quite a while ago. I think the little unlockables are paced poorly, also. We had fun getting the van and the bus and the plane, and the roadies and the sound guy and the PR team, but it seems like we got those too quickly too. Right now manager says "you need more stars to enter the hall of fame". It looks like we need 183 more stars, and we have something like 217. (Is it 400 stars for HoF?). In any event, it seems like got all the other unlockables in half the number of stars required for the HoF. I would've like a little better pacing on that, too. We basically need to double our stars for one more thing, whereas we got like 8 different things in the first half.

Just my opinion.

[DesiredFX]

LordFlatus, the question that jumps out at me when you talk about the number of stars you've got is whether you played all the gigs available to you. There are usually 30-40 stars available at each venue, and some go much higher, depending how long the multi-song sets are.

Unlocking the van, the bus and the airplane are necessary for being able to get to more cities. Having roadies, a sound man, and a PR agency are necessary to opening up some of the venues. By getting them all at the halfway point in the game, you get the opportunity to go pretty much anywhere you want to earn those stars.

Also, in the later stages of the game, you're going to see more long sets at the venues: picking up 183 stars isn't quite as daunting when a single set can net you 20 or more.

[tbradshaw]

I really think this thread is on to something.

We have a situation where Quick Play is very "shallow" in depth, just the core game play. (Even if it is the best damn game play ever.) Band World Tour is very deep and sometimes unwelcoming to the "casual" gamer.

Band World Tour is that way on purpose, of course. It's not trivial to change instruments and change band members because real bands don't trivially change instruments and band members. The fan caps come quick because the fan cap is your signal to go back to the clubs and work on your skills before progressing to the next level. You're fully expected to play every single gig a ton of times before you exhaust the experience. And it truly is a great experience.

But, I think it's very clear that we have a high demand for a Quick Play Plus. Something with more depth and "rock star career moments" than "just a one off song". Something that you can coast through and enjoy the content at any difficulty level. Something that is easy to randomly play with any group of players and still get a little bit of the fun of playing a full set, at least! A lot of the forum goers are frustrated with Band World Tour because they were expecting a Quick Play Plus and they are trying (their hardest) to play it like it is a Quick Play Plus.

Maybe we can change our conversation a bit when we talk about "fixing Band World Tour", and instead fixing something that isn't broken, start asking for what we really want. Another play mode entirely. A Quick Play Plus. Call it Band National Tour, or whatever the art/design guys come up with. But we're looking for something with all of the ease of Quick Play but some of the pizazz of the BWT. At least the cool band moments like "Charity Gig" or something could mean something again for those of the forum goers that don't yet have the chops for higher difficulties. A mode that doesn't make you choose between all of the features of the game or playing with your friends that suck.

This is probably a Rock Band 2 level feature request, but I think it really is the core of the "complaints" with BWT.

[DesiredFX]

I thought that came up in the old Fan Cap thread in the form of an Arcade version of Band World Tour that was geared more toward the casual gamer, having most of the features of Band World Tour but not being capped by either number of fans or difficulty levels in specific venues.

It went further to say that this wide-open version of BWT wouldn't be connected to the Leaderboards, so anyone who was playing through the original BWT as a challenge would feel like the achievements they earned weren't washed away when the easier mode was created.

[Apples]

I'm sort of amused that everyone has honed in on fans, but not the money/economy aspect of the BWT.

For me personally, I had all the money I needed for my characters within 2 hours of gameplay. I got them the costumes and instruments I wanted... and now have minimal desire to ever change them... making the whole economy aspect moot.

This leaves me with tens of thousands of dollars to spend and nothing to use it on.

The only thing I'd ever need money for is outfitting new characters, but I'd have to build them out and unlock the setlist again for them... or somehow squeeze them into a BWT mode.

[tbradshaw]

I thought that came up in the old Fan Cap thread in the form of an Arcade version of Band World Tour that was geared more toward the casual gamer, having most of the features of Band World Tour but not being capped by either number of fans or difficulty levels in specific venues.

It went further to say that this wide-open version of BWT wouldn't be connected to the Leaderboards, so anyone who was playing through the original BWT as a challenge would feel like the achievements they earned weren't washed away when the easier mode was created.

Yeah, I remember that... though I guess I didn't differentiate "Arcade" from Quick Play at all. I realize now people are referring to the term as it is used--for instance--in racing games where there is a "realistic" and an "arcade". I saw "Arcade" and thought, "Umm, that's exactly like QuickPlay already is, just with sets."

[sporkBrigade]

I'm sort of amused that everyone has honed in on fans, but not the money/economy aspect of the BWT.

For me personally, I had all the money I needed for my characters within 2 hours of gameplay. I got them the costumes and instruments I wanted... and now have minimal desire to ever change them... making the whole economy aspect moot.

This leaves me with tens of thousands of dollars to spend and nothing to use it on.

The only thing I'd ever need money for is outfitting new characters, but I'd have to build them out and unlock the setlist again for them... or somehow squeeze them into a BWT mode.

Hah, I agree 100%. This part actually drives me crazy. Our main band characters have thousands just sitting around. All I want is to create another theme band for fun, and dump all that extra money into. But if I want to create a new "Kiss" band or whatever, I have to do the whole process again to buy their costumes.

It's almost like the economy balance is in this weird awkward spot that's too fast for lasting enjoyment of one main character, but too long for splurging enjoyment with many characters.

[sporkBrigade]

The only problem I have with the fan cap is the pacing of it: you max out way too early in your tour.

Like others here, I have a wife that is not a gamer yet enjoys RockBand. She's made a character and given it tats, and she likes BWT mode. She is barely proficient enough at the guitar on Easy to pass songs, yet we still maxed out our fans and she is nowhere near ready to play medium. That's fine, but it takes away some of the fun when is struggling on the mid-level sets of Easy yet the game is telling us that she needs to move up to Medium.

All I'm saying is it would be "funner" if either we earned fans at a lower rate so that they don't max-out so fast, or else the caps and "unlock totals" were tripled or quadrupled for the same effect.

I don't want it all. I don't threaten anybody's standing on their precious leaderboards. I have no aspirations of conquering Xbox live with my wife. We are just having fun, and being able to keep earning fans longer in the tour would be funner.

On a related note, my son and I have been BWTing and hit the Medium fan cap quite a while ago. I think the little unlockables are paced poorly, also. We had fun getting the van and the bus and the plane, and the roadies and the sound guy and the PR team, but it seems like we got those too quickly too. Right now manager says "you need more stars to enter the hall of fame". It looks like we need 183 more stars, and we have something like 217. (Is it 400 stars for HoF?). In any event, it seems like got all the other unlockables in half the number of stars required for the HoF. I would've like a little better pacing on that, too. We basically need to double our stars for one more thing, whereas we got like 8 different things in the first half.

Just my opinion.

I think the pacing is actually pretty good, but it's all how you view it. If you view hitting the cap as the game coming to a halt, then you're right. It's fast. However, the gameplay isn't designed from that viewpoint.

Think of it this way. If a band of super badasses plays the game, their pace is less hindered by the caps. They blast through. Of course, they also finish the game way faster then the rest of us, and in my opinion that's where they lose. But really, a group like that is probably just wanting to set records anyway, so the faster they can get to that the better. The rest of us actually NEED a slower progression. The slower progression is there, you just have to not be offended by the fan cap.

The caps slow your progression, and therefore extends your gameplay. Finishing BWT isn't the point. Playing gigs is. And when you reach that cap, that's exactly what happens. You go back through and start playing the gigs you skipped over. Now, the next step should be that playing those gigs increases your skills, and by the time your done, you're ready to perform past the cap, and the next level of difficult content opens up to you.

That's exactly how it worked for our band. Every time we hit the cap, we continued to play. By the time we had a few more gigs under our belt, we were ready for all Medium, and continued the progression. We eventually hit Medium cap, and it all started again. We went through, continuing to play gigs, and eventually found we could play Hard.

We're not Hardcore, and we never stopped playing. The game never stopped. Nothing ever changed. It took us longer then that mythical uber group I mentioned, but in my opinion we had more fun doing it. We're now at the Hard cap working towards Expert.

Anyway, the progression is better then you think. You just have to turn your focus away from fans, and turn it onto completing gigs. That's what the BWT is all about. Well, that and selling out for the cash money.

Edit: I forgot to tie in the uber group, and why the pacing is the way it is. It's a flexible pacing system. The system automatically adjusts itself to your group. The better you are, the faster you progress. The slower you are, the slower you progress. From Stars to fans to caps, it's all faster the better you are. There's nothing wrong with that. What's the point of unlocking Tokyo if you're not good enough to play anything there? The idea of the game "halting" at any point because of a cap is an illusion based on a flawed view of what Fans are. So sure, you can change Fans to some sort of flexible system based on multipliers to achieve the same thing, but make it easier to swallow. But if you don't resign yourself to the idea that playing gigs is more important than gaining fans, you're probably never going to like BWT.

[surgesnugs]

The casual market doesn't need a campaign mode. They need Quickplay. This exists in the game, so I truely don't see how this is a "Hardcore" game. There are challenges available within the game, but they are all optional. You're not required to do any of it.

It's not stupid at all. Deep long lasting games always have element of challenge to them. Wii sports is the perfect example of a great, shallow party game. I love busting it out any time I have a random group of people there who aren't really gamers, but I know they'll enjoy themselves. Do I play Wii sports every day? Oh god no, the game is actually terrible. It's shallow, simple, and mind boggling boring in the long term. But Jesus it makes a great party game.

Shallow Party games make great Party games, not great games. RockBand is both, but only if you open your eyes to the possibilities within Quickplay.

But I don't understand why having an easier difficulty level available affects anyone that wants to stick with the more difficult level. Adding a lower difficulty doesn't impact the challenge available in the game at all. It just broadens the user base that can play the game.

[Ultrace]

The only thing I'd ever need money for is outfitting new characters, but I'd have to build them out and unlock the setlist again for them... or somehow squeeze them into a BWT mode.
Isn't money independent to each character? Or is the money earned in BWT a pool that anyone in the band can use? That pool of money could be handy for creating additional characters and decking them out quickly (for fun with quickplay, etc...)

[DesiredFX]

Isn't money independent to each character? Or is the money earned in BWT a pool that anyone in the band can use? That pool of money could be handy for creating additional characters and decking them out quickly (for fun with quickplay, etc...)

You can earn money specific to the character via the Solo Tour modes, but the money you spend while you're in BWT is the money earned by the band as a group.

What's funny, though, is that if you go through Solo Tour with your character, you win a ton of stuff by completing songs. I've outfitted my guy entirely with the free stuff I got, including a couple different guitars.

[sporkBrigade]

But I don't understand why having an easier difficulty level available affects anyone that wants to stick with the more difficult level. Adding a lower difficulty doesn't impact the challenge available in the game at all. It just broadens the user base that can play the game.

Because there's a subtle difference between you challenging yourself, and the game challenging you. There's a lot to be said for challenging yourself. However, good games also manage to offer you challenges as well.

Let me put it another way. Why do you want to play the Guitar Legend Setlist? That's what's in Tokyo, and it's Hard level. It's the 6 hardest guitar songs in the game, and you have to play on Hard. You also have to play on Hard to unlock Tokyo in the first place, so that you can play this very challenging setlist. It's very existence is a challenge, it has no other purpose. If you want to play those 6 songs, you can, go to Quickplay. But the act of gathering these 6 songs together, slapping the title "Guitar Legend Setlist" on it, and setting a difficulty requirement on it is just the Developer saying "I dare you. I f*cking dare you."

There's always going to be something challenging that you can't do put into games. They're not there to insult you, they're there to challenge you. If you're not interested, then just ignore them. The game works exactly as intended for those not wanting a challenge. You can play every song at whatever difficulty you want. You just can't play that challenging setlist, that wouldn't even be there in the first place if they didn't want it to be a challenge.

[sporkBrigade]

You can earn money specific to the character via the Solo Tour modes, but the money you spend while you're in BWT is the money earned by the band as a group.

What's funny, though, is that if you go through Solo Tour with your character, you win a ton of stuff by completing songs. I've outfitted my guy entirely with the free stuff I got, including a couple different guitars.

Actually no, crazily enough. The money you earn in the BWT still goes to the character. There is no band wide cash pool to pull from. So for example, take a character from you BWT band, then take him into a Solo tour. He'll have all his cash from the World Tour.

It's something we've started doing. We bring in some of our other characters that we want just for fun, and let them tour with us just to cash him up a little bit.

[Hanover]

I completely agree with what you've said here.

Im probably going to get the "We don't want realism" slam, but not all bands continue to gain fans. Thats what the term "Small Following" means. Isn't it cool that you actually have 60,000 people who want to hear you play? Aren't you still playing together as a group and isn't that what is supposed to make Rock Band fun? You still have the challenge of gaining stars even if you're not gaining fans. Not all bands make it to Tokyo...some bands dont even tour (XTC, The Beatles during their later years, etc).

Why not let someone try their instrument on hard and use some team work to help save them during those parts they're having problems with? That's strategy...and working together...figuring out when to save up that overdrive to help your upcoming hard-playing band member out...and in the mean time, someone's going to start getting better playing on hard.

Its this idea that once you've reached the cap, it's game over man. When it really isn't true. You just continue progressing at the level you can play at. Buzz Kill? Why is it a buzz kill to finish a gig? You've moved forward despite the fan cap. You might have 5 starred the entire gig...why not be happy about that? Thank your devoted fans and move on to the next gig.

I do agree that there needs to be more quick play modes...




We're not Hardcore, and we never stopped playing. The game never stopped. Nothing ever changed. It took us longer then that mythical uber group I mentioned, but in my opinion we had more fun doing it. We're now at the Hard cap working towards Expert.

Anyway, the progression is better then you think. You just have to turn your focus away from fans, and turn it onto completing gigs. That's what the BWT is all about. Well, that and selling out for the cash money.

But if you don't resign yourself to the idea that playing gigs is more important than gaining fans, you're probably never going to like BWT.

[DesiredFX]

...some bands dont even tour (XTC...

It always comes up, and it always makes me cry.

(Though I did get to meet them when they did their radio tour in support of Oranges & Lemons.)

[Frederf]

I don't understand people that say the fan caps are correctly paced. I mean 95% of my play has been under the medium cap. I figure in a perfect world the game would want you to play a new difficulty just about the time you were ready for it, not 1/20th that time.

I guess you can make a set list for the DLC content, that works. Ideally the game would "seed" them into the other set lists but I guess that's too complicated. Although I have reiterate any solution to a BWT problem that is "go into Solo Tour to..." just exposes a flaw in the game.

I do take issue with the idea that anyone who defends any sort of fan cap is suddenly a habitual leg-humper of the leaderboards. I rather detest them (especially since they seem to be ranked by fans instead of tour-points).

The band leader has to play issue I don't is a "hardcore" feature but is plainly a broken part of the game. The idea that players should be so hardcore as to only play one instrument and the leader plays every time the band plays is silly. Hardcore for a challenge ? Yes. Hardcore to minimize your variety, enjoyment, and enforce who plays when? Nae.

It does seem to me that the game throws A LOT OF CRAP at you at once. I mean I don't even know where to begin with dozens of "New!" tags all over the place. Surely the game can't keep up this pace forever and it's definitely going to get very sparse in the end-game.

As far as money goes... you haven't seen my GF's character. Can't keep money in that girl's pocket for very long. It'd be nice if you could give money between characters or something upon deletion of otherwise. Seems funny to me if you delete your guitarist because you think he should be 2.5cm taller that you have to play through the whole Solo Tour again and have 0 in the bank.

Maybe the manager/roadies could actually require a monthly salary :p

[Kid Lenin]

Man, I agree with a lot of what has been said here.

I think it's especially notable that in BWT, just as you start getting to songs that might challenge you on a given difficulty, you're generally also expected to move up in difficulty if you wish to keep fans! This seems crazy if you think about it-- the game is consistently producing harder songs for you as you explore new cities and venues, and then is also saying 'Yeah, you're okay, but you should play on harder difficulties.' It would be like an action game like Ninja Gaiden telling you 1/2 of the way through the game, just as it starts getting difficult, 'Yeah, you've killed a lot of guys... would you like to play the rest of the game on a harder difficulty?' It just doesn't make a lot of sense if you think about it. Anyway, points I thought were good:

If you change anything about fan caps, it should be a minimal change. Either making caps slightly harder to get to or making fan gains substantially lower would make a lot of people feel like they're still 'making progress' while playing through the lower portions of the game.

Leave BWT mode largely unchanged. It's not designed for 'casual' play, although I disagree with the term 'hardcore.' It's just a commitment, like being in a real band.

Create a play mode between BWT and Quick Play. I don't think Quick Play should be abandoned (certain players likely enjoy not having to futz with who-where-what before getting down to the rock), but I do think that there's a nice middle ground to be made. Create a gameplay type, name it something like 'Jam Session.' Allow the players to create characters and bands, and allow band members (the characters) to switch instruments freely. This means no 'Band Leader' allowed! Allow the players to choose a city and a venue in that city-- ANY city and venue that has previously been unlocked in Solo or BWT. Allow the players to choose a song to play, choose a 'Make your own set' (and allow them to set the number of songs in the playlist), or choose a 'Mystery set.' Hell, you can even include any pre-made sets that have previously been played for that venue. Fans may or may not be present in this mode, but if they are, they should not be capped, and should be accrued far slower, regardless of difficulty.

Allow bandmembers to donate money to new bands, or simply tie money to player accounts rather than created characters. Personally, I like the former better than the latter, as I know several of my friends don't bother to log in when we play Rock Band, yet they still deserve the money they're earning at these gigs.

Caps should be removed. I'm adding this because, the more I think about it, the more I realized that they are completely unnecessary. Rather than cap the number of fans available to a band, venues should be limited partially by fans but (more importantly) by difficulty. They're already limited like this-- certain venues require you to play on Medium or Hard and higher. If a band normally plays on Medium (and they play a lot of good gigs), why limit them from going to the harder venues and trying the songs on Hard? What I mean to say is that if a band plays extensively on Medium (and, without a cap, earns enough fans to head to Tokyo), why limit them from trying something that they're likely to fail anyway? The difficulty requirement is limit enough; the fans shouldn't be hard capped. If anything, set a high (but not infinite) cap for each difficulty, and have bands parabolically approach them-- gaining fewer bands each set, but never quite reaching that cap. The only reason to do this, though, is if you're concerned about the Leaderboards, which I could personally give a flip about.

All of these are great ideas, and I think Harmonix should look into them post-haste.

[NattyLight]

After reading the following from Gabe of Penny Arcade, I agree with him and think that you should be able to experience all of the game on easy if you want.


Tycho talked about the different reasons people play games in his post and I thought it was pretty interesting. It's a conversation we've had before and I think it's something a lot of gamers probably don't think about. I remember it came up while we were both playing Metroid Prime: Corruption. I was talking to him about how I was getting frustrated because some of the boss battles were really giving me a hard time. I realised I don't play games for the challenge. I don't need or want to be punished by a game for making mistakes. I play games for what Ron Gilbert calls "new art". I play to see the next level or cool animation. I don't play games to beat them I play games to see them. Coming to that realisation was actually sort of important for me.

[Bakkster]

I guess you can make a set list for the DLC content, that works. Ideally the game would "seed" them into the other set lists but I guess that's too complicated. Although I have reiterate any solution to a BWT problem that is "go into Solo Tour to..." just exposes a flaw in the game.

The problem is that the Punk Setlist, for example, could get ridiculously long for some people. I want DLC to give the game more variety, not force me to sit down and play 20 songs every setlist. Also with the planned amount of DLC and the various amounts people would grab, this is just way to hard to balance aside from created and random setlists.


I do take issue with the idea that anyone who defends any sort of fan cap is suddenly a habitual leg-humper of the leaderboards. I rather detest them (especially since they seem to be ranked by fans instead of tour-points).

The only reason I take the leaderboards into account is because a patch could affect them and cause everyone to flip out. For example, if they needed to be wiped, or if people who had been playing the whole time didn't get credit for all the time they had already played.

That said, I don't like the fan cap because of the way it sets up the leaderboards (I'd rather have fans ramp down significantly at a point), I like them because it is an incentive to skill up. Attacking the fan cap by calling it only in favor of the "hardcore" is a straw-man argument, and doesn't hold water.


The band leader has to play issue I don't is a "hardcore" feature but is plainly a broken part of the game. The idea that players should be so hardcore as to only play one instrument and the leader plays every time the band plays is silly. Hardcore for a challenge ? Yes. Hardcore to minimize your variety, enjoyment, and enforce who plays when? Nae.

No, there just aren't many bands where the entire lineup can change. There's almost always at least one member that stays constant. I'm having trouble thinking of any band where NONE of the original members are left and it's not a "tribute" type of band.


It does seem to me that the game throws A LOT OF CRAP at you at once. I mean I don't even know where to begin with dozens of "New!" tags all over the place. Surely the game can't keep up this pace forever and it's definitely going to get very sparse in the end-game.

You're disappointed that you have a lot of gameplay options? Seriously? I actually love that I can go wherever I want, instead of being stuck in a linear series of shows. That, to me, is awesome.

[stickshady2007]

Ya creed didnt get fan capped and they were terrible

[hkhawk]

I think the fan cap is great. It took me six months of Guitar Hero to progress to the point where I could play all the songs on Medium guitar. Now, in just a few weeks, I have progressed to Expert Bass ONLY BECAUSE OF the fan cap.

At first I hated the cap but now I am really pushing myself and getting a lot better at the game and it is very satisfying. I think it is a brilliant aspect of this game and should not be altered.

I understand people who are more casual gamers being annoyed by this but I think a lot of them are missing out on the big picture. This game has been designed as a "Music Platform." Unlike other games that are meant to be played and beaten in a matter of hours, this game has been designed to provide satisfying gameplay FOR YEARS TO COME! Even casual gamers will get better over the lifespan of this game and be able to move on to harder difficulty levels. I truly believe that the fan cap speeds up this process for all gamers and if you don't fight it it is incredibly rewarding. Please do not change this!

[Captiosus77]

My complaint isn't with the fact that there is a cap. I honestly think the implementation of a cap is a good thing as it gives players something to stride for.

However, I think the current implementation is skewed and needs some rework. If I have a 4 person band and 3 of us play on hard while 1 plays on medium (for whatever reason), the one medium player holds everyone back as a whole unless we kick him or demand he try to play on hard or better. Seems kind of foul for one person to completely limit 3 others and it seems equally as foul to have to kick someone out just to see other venues. In some cases, moving up a difficulty level isn't something that can be chosen (ie. a handicapped, injured, or elderly player).

Members in this forum, as well as others I frequent, have discussed a 'weighted' fan cap whereby bands get fans based on the difficulty levels played by the members individually. This would be a much better implementation than the current one. Switch to an implementation such as this and increase the fan caps a touch and everything would be a-ok in my book.

As it stands now, one person is keeping our band from ever playing in a lot of places. Sure, we can 'finish' the mode by getting the PR firm, and doing the endless set list, but to me this game should be much more open ended than just "finishing" the mode. My friends - my band - and I would like to see these venues, not have to make an all new band with a European home town. Even if we were restricted from places like Sydney and Rio - that would be understandable.. but jeez, we can't even THINK about playing in Paris.

:mad:

[sporkBrigade]

I don't understand people that say the fan caps are correctly paced. I mean 95% of my play has been under the medium cap. I figure in a perfect world the game would want you to play a new difficulty just about the time you were ready for it, not 1/20th that time.

...

It does seem to me that the game throws A LOT OF CRAP at you at once. I mean I don't even know where to begin with dozens of "New!" tags all over the place. Surely the game can't keep up this pace forever and it's definitely going to get very sparse in the end-game.


These two points are exactly why people don't understand the pacing of BWT. All those "New" tags? All those gigs you're building up but then leaving behind? Those gigs ARE the World Tour. They're the only reason to play the world tour. When you move on to the new city, you are completely bypassing the gameplay for the Tour.

When you're thinking of pacing, you're thinking of the pacing for yourself and your band. But from the developer standpoint, they have to pace this game for your amatuer band, and a group of crazy super muscisians who move up in deficulty with no issues. For that uber band, they hit the cap and the just move on. The sooner they can get to their hard challenges the better. For the rest of us, we hit the cap, and it forces us to go play the gigs we skipped. Those "New" tags you're talking about. You never stop playing, and in fact it's my opinion that your extended play experience will actually be better then the uber group.

Trust me, my band didn't get it either. But as soon as you realize that fans don't matter, and finishing those gigs do, you will start enjoying BWT much much more. And just to answer your question, the pace slows down a little with the new tags, since the final Hard level venues only have one Stadium per city instead of 3. But it's still going to be a LOT.


Maybe the manager/roadies could actually require a monthly salary :p

I like it.

[Frederf]

Create a play mode between BWT and Quick Play. I don't think Quick Play should be abandoned (certain players likely enjoy not having to futz with who-where-what before getting down to the rock)

Allow the players to create characters and bands, and allow band members (the characters) to switch instruments freely. This means no 'Band Leader' allowed!

I understand that Quickplay is designed to be quick obviously, but I think you could flesh out Quickplay to this exciting middle-mode without actually making it any less quick; at least appreciably.

The Band Leader is a flubbed concept all around and don't think it should be in place and restrictive in even the challengiest of modes.


The problem is that the Punk Setlist, for example, could get ridiculously long for some people. I want DLC to give the game more variety, not force me to sit down and play 20 songs every setlist. Also with the planned amount of DLC and the various amounts people would grab, this is just way to hard to balance aside from created and random setlists.

No, there just aren't many bands where the entire lineup can change. There's almost always at least one member that stays constant. I'm having trouble thinking of any band where NONE of the original members are left and it's not a "tribute" type of band.

You're disappointed that you have a lot of gameplay options? Seriously? I actually love that I can go wherever I want, instead of being stuck in a linear series of shows. That, to me, is awesome.

Well if DLC was seeded into the main fabric of the game they'd have to be more than blindingly stupid about it. If the punk set list is normally 4 songs and you download 20 punk songs the set list would be 4 of those 24, not a huge balloon of the original set list.

Indeed most bands don't change their composition much if at all, but can you really argue that HMX wanted the Rock Band experience to strictly follow reality to that extent? In real life the skill and practice in a single instrument often precludes learning multiple as well as the motivation of real life band members are to make good music and earn some bucks and not to have a jolly ol' time dancing around through the rotation.

Band progress in BWT is quite an involved affair and trying to get anywhere but the surface pretty much demands dedication to a single band. I've played 20 hours or so and I'm still smack in the middle of medium land in terms of what's completed. Now the idea that every time BWT is played, one person always has to be present and always has to play the same instrument is rather well... contrived. Did HMX really expect one person to sit down at the drums and only get up 4 months later? Can you say with a straight face that HMX intended all it's players, especially the band leaders to be completely monogamous to their instrument?

This isn't an argument for character-instrument switching. In fact, I couldn't give a toss about that since having three characters for three instrument-types is fine to me. They are my three avatars of three different careers. The human being (me) is free to play whatever instrument I want which is all the freedom of instrument I need. That I need to change which character is the agent of my play is fine with me.

What's irksome is that I inevitably end up playing my friends' characters because of the band leader restriction. It defeats the purpose of personalized characters when you have to trade them around like baseball cards to work around the game's obtuse restrictions. That is assuming you have 4 people in the room. What's worse, if you have 2 or 3 then there is the very real chance that your desired human-instrument matching is plain NOT POSSIBLE.

The very high number of choices early in the game only really bothers me because I realize that it comes at a cost. Parts of the game are finite so a huge number of options opened now means that much less will be opened later in the game. Also there is a definite lack of structure associated with so many options. Choice is nice when it allows flexibility but not always to dumbfound you with countless possibilities. It takes away the sense of struggle and accomplishment when the game is opening itself up 10x faster than you can ingest it. I also feel that I don't know the parts of the game that well when they are faceless in a sea of the rest of the game. If I wasn't ADDing and flitting from place to place at a rapid pace I might actually feel more connection to each bit.


These two points are exactly why people don't understand the pacing of BWT. All those "New" tags? All those gigs you're building up but then leaving behind? Those gigs ARE the World Tour. They're the only reason to play the world tour. When you move on to the new city, you are completely bypassing the gameplay for the Tour.

When you're thinking of pacing, you're thinking of the pacing for yourself and your band. But from the developer standpoint, they have to pace this game for your amatuer band, and a group of crazy super muscisians who move up in deficulty with no issues. For that uber band, they hit the cap and the just move on. The sooner they can get to their hard challenges the better. For the rest of us, we hit the cap, and it forces us to go play the gigs we skipped. Those "New" tags you're talking about. You never stop playing, and in fact it's my opinion that your extended play experience will actually be better then the uber group.

Trust me, my band didn't get it either. But as soon as you realize that fans don't matter, and finishing those gigs do, you will start enjoying BWT much much more. And just to answer your question, the pace slows down a little with the new tags, since the final Hard level venues only have one Stadium per city instead of 3. But it's still going to be a LOT.

I think you don't get it. The amount of the game we unlock is hugely disproportionate to how much we've played thus far. If we did all of the sets in the first two venues in our home town alone, we'd have dozens of set lists opened up! A slow band will obviously go slower than a fast band, but both are getting like 3 set lists unlocked for every 1 they complete. It's ridiculous! It's like the broomsticks carrying buckets of water in Fantasia. It doesn't matter if you cause the duplication to happen slowly or quickly, the ridiculous part is the replacement ratio!

That was the complaint! The game provides umpteen overwhelming choices in the beginning and then runs out well before the end.

[tbradshaw]

If we did all of the sets in the first two venues in our home town alone, we'd have dozens of set lists opened up! A slow band will obviously go slower than a fast band, but both are getting like 3 set lists unlocked for every 1 they complete. It's ridiculous! It's like the broomsticks carrying buckets of water in Fantasia. It doesn't matter if you cause the duplication to happen slowly or quickly, the ridiculous part is the replacement ratio!

That was the complaint! The game provides umpteen overwhelming choices in the beginning and then runs out well before the end.

The world is your oyster! Lots of options as soon as you're showing that you can play as a band. Then, just any major band, you can go just about anywhere early in your career and then it's up to you how you'll carve it up. No one was telling Van Halen this year, "Okay, now that you're 80% through your career, you may now visit Moscow."

[Bakkster]

Well if DLC was seeded into the main fabric of the game they'd have to be more than blindingly stupid about it. If the punk set list is normally 4 songs and you download 20 punk songs the set list would be 4 of those 24, not a huge balloon of the original set list.

The problem is picking those 4 songs. 24 different people could each have 24 different punk songs, and trying to distill each combination into only 4 songs for each person without creating bugs. Then do it all over again for 25 songs. Does the setlist change again? What if you've already completed it?

That's why they didn't do it: it's too complex for the first game.

[barbasol]

These two points are exactly why people don't understand the pacing of BWT. All those "New" tags? All those gigs you're building up but then leaving behind? Those gigs ARE the World Tour. They're the only reason to play the world tour. When you move on to the new city, you are completely bypassing the gameplay for the Tour.


I don't quite get what you're saying here either. Do you mean you should finish all the sets in a venue/city before moving to the next city? I'm not sure that's necessary and it's kinda fun to skip around.

Apparently my band is a lot further along than I thought in that we are already invited to the hall of fame. I counted and of around 104 available setlists, we've done around 60. So there are 40+ "new" signs still floating around. Now maybe there's more after the Hall of Fame, or maybe we shouldn't have plowed through the specific cities that grant the sound guy, pr firm, etc. I don't think it's bad either way, it'll be fun that there is a ton left to play after the Hall of Fame but it wouldn't have been bad either if the other goals were spaced out a bit or if the Hall of Fame was only available later.



When you're thinking of pacing, you're thinking of the pacing for yourself and your band. But from the developer standpoint, they have to pace this game for your amatuer band, and a group of crazy super muscisians who move up in deficulty with no issues. For that uber band, they hit the cap and the just move on. The sooner they can get to their hard challenges the better. For the rest of us, we hit the cap, and it forces us to go play the gigs we skipped. Those "New" tags you're talking about. You never stop playing, and in fact it's my opinion that your extended play experience will actually be better then the uber group.

....

I don't see how hitting the cap forces people to play gigs that you skipped. If anything it might force you to replay certain easier gigs on a higher difficulty?

We're going to play all the gigs regardless of cap, as I agree that's the fun of the game. The difference to me is that it'll be less fun to play all those gigs while we're sitting at the cap and haven't yet moved up a difficulty. Perhaps we'll find we can move up in difficulty before we've played them all though.


As for money, I haven't had any problems with that. There is some expensive stuff to blow it on. :)

[Hanover]

Thats what is called a "SANDBOX" game. Every description of BWT that came from Harmonix said it was a sandbox game. Even when you get to the Hall of Fame, you can keep performing.

The funny thing is, I hear complaints about the restrictiveness (fan caps) and the freedom (lots of stuff to do). So you really provide the argument as to why the fan caps really don't take away from the game play.

I love the choices! My friends and I get to decide, as a group, where we go next. It's awesome.


I think you don't get it. The amount of the game we unlock is hugely disproportionate to how much we've played thus far. If we did all of the sets in the first two venues in our home town alone, we'd have dozens of set lists opened up! A slow band will obviously go slower than a fast band, but both are getting like 3 set lists unlocked for every 1 they complete. It's ridiculous! It's like the broomsticks carrying buckets of water in Fantasia. It doesn't matter if you cause the duplication to happen slowly or quickly, the ridiculous part is the replacement ratio!

That was the complaint! The game provides umpteen overwhelming choices in the beginning and then runs out well before the end.

[sporkBrigade]

The very high number of choices early in the game only really bothers me because I realize that it comes at a cost. Parts of the game are finite so a huge number of options opened now means that much less will be opened later in the game. Also there is a definite lack of structure associated with so many options. Choice is nice when it allows flexibility but not always to dumbfound you with countless possibilities. It takes away the sense of struggle and accomplishment when the game is opening itself up 10x faster than you can ingest it. I also feel that I don't know the parts of the game that well when they are faceless in a sea of the rest of the game. If I wasn't ADDing and flitting from place to place at a rapid pace I might actually feel more connection to each bit.



I think you don't get it. The amount of the game we unlock is hugely disproportionate to how much we've played thus far. If we did all of the sets in the first two venues in our home town alone, we'd have dozens of set lists opened up! A slow band will obviously go slower than a fast band, but both are getting like 3 set lists unlocked for every 1 they complete. It's ridiculous! It's like the broomsticks carrying buckets of water in Fantasia. It doesn't matter if you cause the duplication to happen slowly or quickly, the ridiculous part is the replacement ratio!

That was the complaint! The game provides umpteen overwhelming choices in the beginning and then runs out well before the end.

I see what you're saying, but let me try to explain my point in a different way. Let's say you were playing a sandbox game more along the lines of GTA that contains 3 cities. An Easy city, a medium city, and a hard city. I'm not saying Rock Band is a sandbox crime/car stealing game, but hopefuly you'll take this for what it is.

In the first city, you have a single string of "Missions" that advance plot and side missions, and eventually unlocks the next city. Each time you finish one of these core missions, 3 side missions pop up on the side. They're all optional. Now, if you ignore these side missions and focus on those core missions, you'll blow through the first city and move on to the second city.

Now it's just a loose analogy, don't get too hung up on it. Here's my point. Let's say the second city was by it's very nature harder to complete. Like, average joe schmoe gets there, he's going to get his ass destroyed. You want this second city hard because you want the game to be challenging, and you're dealing with an open environment so just making a easy campaign vs. medium campagin vs. Hard campaign isn't quite so easy as you'd think it is. So you have a skill wall of some sort. You have to in some way prove you're good enough for that second city before you can get out of the first one.

Now either way you play it you can just blast through the "Core missions" and hit that wall in no time flat. Skilled players move on, why stick them in the easy city for longer then you have to? Less skilled players don't, they're stuck. But no worries! You've got them covered. On the way they've unlocked a metric sh** ton of content to occupy their time within this first city. You want to truely fill that first city with as much as possible, really, because you don't want the average beginner to run out of things to do before they're ready to climb that skill wall.

Okay, it's a crap analogy, but hopefully you see my point? The content flows because you want a populated space for Easy players to use to get ready for Medium, and likewise Medium players to use to go to Hard. Yes, you can hit the "Skill Walls" quickly, but the Wall isn't the point. The content is. You have as much content there for you as you need to get ready to scale that wall.

As for endgame content, don't sweat it. Me and my band has unlocked every single gig in the game. We have plenty to keep our time occupied. You're right, the top end content is not as dense as the low end, but the setlists are longer and MUCH more challenging. Add to this fact that any low end content becomes harder by just upping the difficulty, and you're all set. I'm actually truely impressed by how populated the whole thing is, it's going to take us a long time to finish.

[sporkBrigade]

I don't quite get what you're saying here either. Do you mean you should finish all the sets in a venue/city before moving to the next city? I'm not sure that's necessary and it's kinda fun to skip around.

Oh Jesus no, I'm not implying you should finish every setlist that you unlock before moving on. That would be terrible. What I'm saying is, if you hit the "Skill Wall" of whatever stage of the game you're in, and you can't pass it yet, you should go back and play through the content you've skipped at the difficulty that challenges you the best.


I don't see how hitting the cap forces people to play gigs that you skipped. If anything it might force you to replay certain easier gigs on a higher difficulty?

We're going to play all the gigs regardless of cap, as I agree that's the fun of the game. The difference to me is that it'll be less fun to play all those gigs while we're sitting at the cap and haven't yet moved up a difficulty. Perhaps we'll find we can move up in difficulty before we've played them all though.


As for money, I haven't had any problems with that. There is some expensive stuff to blow it on. :)

The cap doesn't force you to play previous gigs unless you've hit a Cap you can't pass.

So think of it this way. There's a pool of Easy gigs, a pool of Medium gigs, and a pool of Hard gigs. There are no Expert gigs, just to be clear. If you're an easy player, can't play Medium, and you play "Core Missions" only, you'll hit the Easy Fan cap quickly. This will restrict you to the Easy Pool by the nature of the caps. You continue to play in that pool, playing all the gigs you skipped, and over time this will ready you for the Medium Pool.

The Medium pool is the biggest. Within the Medium pool is Hall of Fame and Endless Setlist and the vast majority of the content. But again, you'll hit a Medium Cap. If you can't play in the Hard pool, then you're stuck in the Medium/Easy pools. Again, continue to play gigs there. There's a TON to do here. With time, you should be ready for the Hard Pool.

The Hard pool are the hardest gigs and venues. and is also the smallest pool. They're all optional, you don't need to be here unless you want to be here. No final bosses here, no game levels. Just Ruby Weapons, Emerald weapons, time trials, and any other gaming reference to optional challenge modes you want to make. Once you've exausted the Medium and Easy pools of gigs, you should be ready for the Hard pool.

The beauty of this is that it conforms to your skill. You only stay in each pool as long as you need to. If you're awesome, you blast through the easy and medium pools in no time flat and you'll be in the Hard pool where you belong. In my opinion, you also end up with a stunted gameplay experience that's not as fun, but if you're that awesome you have other things to worry about. If you're just average, or a beginner, you get stuck in the pools for longer. But that's a good thing. Playing gigs is fun, and is the point of BWT. Getting a more even progression through the pools is probably the best possible way to experience the game.

[Hanover]

Crackdown was a lot like this too. It would open up other parts of the city with new crime bosses to go after, but if you went to them too quickly they were extremely difficult...so I would just stay put, finish out the area I was in before heading into new territory. Once I did that, the "extremely difficult" areas became only moderately difficult.

Something I dont even think anyone's mentioned...

Let's say the fan caps were removed and implemented the whole "Slower Fan Build" idea. That means you are STILL going to have to go back and clear gigs to achieve that...so really, what's the difference? By the time you played enough gigs to gain enough fans, you'd probably gotten into the hall of fame by then.

I think the quick solution is that if you don't gain any fans, it just doesnt show any sort of message regarding that. So instead of saying, "Fans Gained: 0." It just doesn't show anything but a "Congrats for a great gig" or something. Then there is no "buzz-kill effect."



Okay, it's a crap analogy, but hopefully you see my point? The content flows because you want a populated space for Easy players to use to get ready for Medium, and likewise Medium players to use to go to Hard. Yes, you can hit the "Skill Walls" quickly, but the Wall isn't the point. The content is. You have as much content there for you as you need to get ready to scale that wall.

[sporkBrigade]

Crackdown was a lot like this too. It would open up other parts of the city with new crime bosses to go after, but if you went to them too quickly they were extremely difficult...so I would just stay put, finish out the area I was in before heading into new territory. Once I did that, the "extremely difficult" areas became only moderately difficult.

Actually, it's a staple of "Sandbox" games. In sandbox games, you don't have difficulty modes, so they've had to come up with different ways to scale difficulty.

The more I think back on the Grand Theft Auto games I've played, the more I remember how much you had to learn throughout the game. You'd always plow through the core missions if you wanted to, but you'd always hit a mission that was just too tough. Either you kept trying that mission over and over again until you could pass it, or you played other optional side missions to kill time and work on your driving skills. Eventually, you were good enough to advance. Those games were always really tough for me, actually. I've always been a real crappy virtual driver.

[sporkBrigade]

Something I dont even think anyone's mentioned...

Let's say the fan caps were removed and implemented the whole "Slower Fan Build" idea. That means you are STILL going to have to go back and clear gigs to achieve that...so really, what's the difference? By the time you played enough gigs to gain enough fans, you'd probably gotten into the hall of fame by then.

I think the quick solution is that if you don't gain any fans, it just doesnt show any sort of message regarding that. So instead of saying, "Fans Gained: 0." It just doesn't show anything but a "Congrats for a great gig" or something. Then there is no "buzz-kill effect."

I think that's a very important point people need to come to terms with. No matter how you change how fans work, the gameplay is going to be exactly the same. Now maybe the change still needs to be made so that there's less confusion, and less "buzz" kill factor. But people need to figure out whether they're getting buzz killed over the fans, or if they simply want a shallow party game. If you want a shallow party game, stop demanding the BWT mountain be demolished just to spite us mountain climbers. Start making threads on how to turn Quickplay into a more fleshed out party experience.

I totally stole that Mountain climber thing. :D

[Frederf]

It's a fine analogy. You speak of "Core missions" which is a nice bit of structure. In Rock Band it's more difficult to know what the core elements are (or even if there are any?). All I can think of is that the manager advice dictates what's "core" at any one point and everything else must be extra.

I rather want my band to follow manager advice more often but it rarely happens. Perhaps an orange highlight on what the manager suggests would further emphasize what is core and what is not.

Also while in GTA, the extra missions do present themselves, they visual impact is very minimal compared to the "Hey look at this!" visuals tied with the dozens of such highlights in Rock Band.

It seems like most of the game is highlighted and if I could draw a dangerous parallel, a textbook where 90% of the text is marked in neon highlighter is none too useful.

[LordFlatus]

LordFlatus, the question that jumps out at me when you talk about the number of stars you've got is whether you played all the gigs available to you. There are usually 30-40 stars available at each venue, and some go much higher, depending how long the multi-song sets are.

I don't know what "the right way" to play BWT is, but when I stomp the bass pedal on the drums to bring up the manager, and he says "you need more stars in Stockholm to do such and such", we go to Stockhom and earn stars. :)

We aren't trying to race through the game or anything. We got a manager and it was pointed out that we should listen to him, so we did. It's not like it's a game-breaker, as we are cruising around knocking out stars now. It just seems like the pacing is off, is all.


And for the fan cap, like I said and many many others have said: it seems like the pacing is off, not the whole system. My wife is not a gamer, but she is gaming with this system Y'all can write pages of explanations and opinions to me the about mechanics of the fan system and the abstraction it represents, but that don't matter. I'm a gamer and she isn't. But she is gaming, and she is disappointed that the fans are capped so quickly. She's not a gamer, so she doesn't care about any of the long diatribes. She's still having fun even though she is nowhere near ready for medium.

And I can defintely see her point about the fans.

To my non-gaming wife, stars and achievements and all that other stuff don't mean aything. But "fans of a band" has an intrinsic meaning that transcends gaming. My wife "gets" that. It means something to her. All I'm saying is that if you could keep earning fans longer it would be funner for non-gamers.

But we'll keep playing the way it is, so need to tell me the same things again on here. :)

[crunchyoverseas]

If you can't play above medium, well, you suck...get a hobby that isn't rockband.

So, I don't get the whining about the fancap. If you can't play above medium you DONT DESERVE TO HAVE OVER 250,000. Your like a boyband. Your like 80's hairmetal. Don't quit your dayjob (well, I advise against that anyway since it's just a dumb game and you want make any money on it).

So that's my opinion on the matter. Learn not to suck.

[SoulScreme]

If you can't play above medium, well, you suck...get a hobby that isn't rockband.

...

So that's my opinion on the matter. Learn not to suck.

Dude, what the hell? Keep it civil. Going around talking smack is one sure way to get the thread closed. Try not to act like a jerk, please.

[Maggot_Brain]

Dude, what the hell? Keep it civil. Going around talking smack is one sure way to get the thread closed. Try not to act like a jerk, please.

Evidently there's no (lower) age limit on these forums......

[SoulScreme]

Evidently there's no (lower) age limit on these forums......

Age, maturity, or IQ from a quick perusal.

[Frederf]

This isn't really a reply to anything but just a random thought that popped into my head.

What if your fan cap wasn't just one of 3 numbers but was a vastly more tiered stepwise function? Say you're at some 100,000 fan cap and you play a brand new city. Suddenly your fan cap is 120,000 because there's this whole new audience that has never heard you before.

It could make the player encounter fan caps more often and get used to beating them which would make them less of a downer. Also it would be nice to up your fan cap (if only by a little bit) once every 5 sets instead of every 100.

[harmonj]

anyone know the limits on each difficulty?:confused:

[harmonj]

They should just allow us to play world tour online. :D

[G_tarRoCK3R]

anyone know the limits on each difficulty?:confused:

Easy - 49,005

Medium 260,000

Hard- 600,000

Expert- NONE!:)

[Mystaskratch]

This leaves me with tens of thousands of dollars to spend and nothing to use it on.

I currently have over 250,000 dollars and I own every Drum set and every single piece of clothing/jewelry. It would be nice if I could use it to buy my own venue/record label, etc. There's just nowhere near enough things to spend money on.

[M3g4d37h]

Come on man, give it up. Stop playing word games and turning everything around. Yes this forum is an exception as in there are a lot more positive posts. For the most part the only people who are going to vote are the ones that want to see a change. Forums, in general, are typically a place where people gather to complain. This forum is no exception. It is however different than most forums because there are also many good posts and positive things. It's not just all complaints. So that is the exception. And I can already see your next post saying. "You just said it's not an exception and then said it is. Which is it?" Don't waste your time.

I didn't miss your point. But my point is the poll is NOT valid because 90% of the ones voting are the ones complaining about it because they actually think their petty little poll is going to make Harmonix rewrite the game for them. I don't think they should change the fan cap but I'm not running to the poll to cast my vote. If Harmonix made the poll and said its official and that they would change it with enough votes then yeah, I would vote as would many others. As it is now, its just a petition. We can play word games all day long, but if you think 600 people out of thousands is the majority then I can see how you think I'm wrong.

One thing is a certainty, Steve; Ine cannot make all people happy all the time..

That said, you argument is flawed -- Here's why;

Free will. Just as you have the right to be the curmudgeon regarding this issue, others have the right to complain/debate civilly. Your off-handed comments like "petty" and "stupid" decry your lack of respect for opinion that you consider wrong or misguided, but you are but one opinion. If you don't like an idea, say so and move on.. But to sit and try to belittle others' ideas is unacceptable in real life, isn't it..?

Good advice from an old man is to talk to people online as if you were talking to their face. It's just better when it comes to issues (no matter how trivial) that people are passionate about.

That said, to claim that a poll is invalid (stupid or genius is in the eye of the beholder, after all) for a reason as meritless as "only whiners will vote" would be as meritless as me accusing you of trolling. Probably more so.

A lot of energy is wasted this-a-way, but the fact remains that you aren't going to change people's opinions, nor will they change yours. My friends, the key imo is respecting dissenting opinion -- That doesn't equate to agreeing, but it goes a long way to avoiding the kinds of threads (and the trolls that accompany them) that none of us want to read.

FWIW, Steve; Logic dictates that when you make a gratuitous assertion, it by logic can be equally disasserted -- The burden of proof is with the person making the statement, not the person defending.

Logic. It's not just for smart folks anymore. ;)

[AllMe]

IMO every video game gets progressively harder as you reach higher levels. Why should this one be any different? Yes, there should be a cheat to unlock everything so you can play the whole game. However, I don't think you should be able to accumulate points or fans while using the cheat.

Getting better and reaching higher levels of achievement is what makes a video game fun. If there was no challenge the game would be boring.

[stickshady]

IMHO I dont want it all given to me. Just wish I could still get fans at a lower rate for playing playing medium/Hard and unlock all the venues. I can play the last level of halo without playing legendary. But Really just think it should be based on stars or song score not difficulty. Then everyone wins you can keep the nerd acheivements points for big in as far as I care.