Pointing the finger...

[ScaryHead]

here comes the mud slinging...

http://www.1up.com/do/newsStory?cId=3164792

[JWG]

All of these companies are businesses and are looking out for their best interests (and would you expect anything less?).

I think there' plenty of blame to go around.

Red Octane is obviously not in any hurry to resolve the issues based on the article.
Harmonix is speaking to this "open standard" - which I have to agree with RO, what open standard is their for PS3? I pretty much thought the thing was a nightmare for devlopers (as was PS2, etc.).
Sony, makes it difficult - they're not an easy platform to develop for.

They can all try to shed the responsibility - but they all likely share it.

[Electric_Zen]

Charles Huang sure does lie a lot.

First, he doesn't want interoperability because his peripherals are a "competitive advantage".

Then, he wants it but he can't help it that there aren't sufficient open standards on the PS3 (but forgets to explain how this prevented him from supporting interoperability on the 360).

Then, he wants it but the Rock Band guitars are so sh*tty that it would be a disservice to his customers to support the Strat for users who have it and want to use it as a second guitar on GH3.

Then, he wants it but Activision just doesn't have time to work on a patch right now.

Then, he blocks deployment of a patch on the PS3 to support the Les Paul on Rock Band but does it all hush-hush.

Hey Charles, be a man and just tell the truth: You don't want interoperability on the guitars. If you believe in it strongly enough, then you can take the heat.

[Maggot_Brain]

Fudge Activision. I'm done with Guitar Hero.

(Besides, the moron would sell more Les Pauls because of all the disgruntled Strat owners. Wise business guy?)

[ScaryHead]

They both could come out smelling like roses. People might buy both bundles just for the guitar and interoperability. If the Fender is so bad wouldn't he want to get the "better" guitar out on the market to take advantage?

[Maggot_Brain]

If I ran my business like that, I'd deserve to go broke!

[Xero314]

If you don't believe Harmonix supports open standards and Activision wants to keep it's IP Proprietary please see the Back of any GH3 Box vs the back of the RB box.

Rock Band:
"Rock Band is compatible with most music game controllers"

Guitar Hero 3:
"Activision Authorizes use of this Guitar Hero game only in combination with the Guitar Hero Controllers provided by activision or standard gamepad controllers provided with the game console. Activision also authorizes us of the Guitar Hero controller only with a Guitar Hero Game Product or other Activision Branded Product. ANY OTHER USE IS STRICTLY PROHIBITED. No Other License, Express or implied, is granted"

So if these agreements where to hold up in court it would be legal to use none Guitar Hero Controllers with RB, beacuse Harmonix has not stipulation on what controllers can be used for their games (hence the open standard statement). Even with a patch that would allow the use of the GH guitars in Rock Band it would still be a violation of the agreements and technically subject to litigation against the individuals violating the agreement.

Personally I am 100% sure the Activision agrement would not hold up in court, but I'm not sure I have the money to take them on, but I sure as hell would try (and am working on a patch of my own but don't have much time to put into it. If there are any other programers interested I would love to discuss my thoughts on how to fix this.)

Just for the record I already chose to boycott Activision after I wasted my money on the pile of crap that is GH3, mostly because for PS3 no other controllers work for that game either even the GH1/2 controllers (which work 90% won GH1/2 with the use of a $20 adapter from Radio Shack).

[lynx44]

How do you propose a home made patch? If the PS3 was hacked, it certainly would be feasible, but otherwise I don't see how this would be possible. The only other way you could do it would be through hardware, and there is no good solution without creating a hardware interface to convert the codes. Trust me, I've looked into it:

http://community.rockband.com/vbforum/showthread.php?t=11826&highlight=guitar+sniffing

-Matt

[terRize]

Guitar Hero 3:
"Activision Authorizes use of this Guitar Hero game only in combination with the Guitar Hero Controllers provided by activision or standard gamepad controllers provided with the game console. Activision also authorizes us of the Guitar Hero controller only with a Guitar Hero Game Product or other Activision Branded Product. ANY OTHER USE IS STRICTLY PROHIBITED. No Other License, Express or implied, is granted"

That's interesting. I wonder what they will do when the new ps3 controller with rumble comes state side? It is not a standard gamepad provided with the game console. (Least not that I've heard Sony will start replacing the console controller with this new one). Just thinking out loud =)

[Xero314]

How do you propose a home made patch? If the PS3 was hacked, it certainly would be feasible, but otherwise I don't see how this would be possible. The only other way you could do it would be through hardware, and there is no good solution without creating a hardware interface to convert the codes. Trust me, I've looked into it:

http://community.rockband.com/vbforum/showthread.php?t=11826&highlight=guitar+sniffing

-Matt

Hardware would be one solution but luckily most of us have a piece of hardware in our home that would do most of the work. I assume any sniffing that has been done was done on a PC of some kind. These PCs are capable of connecting by USB to any other device. All that is needed is software on a PC that would convert one USB code into another. Controller connects to PC, PC connects to PS3.

If this issue is just key mapping (which is probably not the case here) you all the PC to pass through the USB handshake so that the controller and PS3 know they are talking to each other and just intercept the individual commands and remap them.

If the issue is as simple as device identification you just have the PC identify it self as an RB controller and also connect to the controller and then pass through the commands.

If there is both id and key mapping issue you can use a combination of both.

This would require one additional piece of hardware that is available at any electronics store (a special USB cable that will allow you to connect to active device rather than the usual active/passive connections)

Now hopefully someone with more time than me can get to work on a solution. Start an Open source project somewhere I would be happy to put what time I can into it (and handle the Mac Port)

Oh and if you wanted to know the hardware necessary cost less than 10 cents and it's called a Microcontroller with dual USB connections. (plus around $200 for a programer but we could produce the final hardware for cheep)

[Xero314]

That's interesting. I wonder what they will do when the new ps3 controller with rumble comes state side? It is not a standard gamepad provided with the game console. (Least not that I've heard Sony will start replacing the console controller with this new one). Just thinking out loud =)

I had the same thought. Technically according to the license it is a violation to use the DualShock 3, or any third party controller, with GH3. And this is why Activision is on my complete boycott list.

[terRize]

I had the same thought. Technically according to the license it is a violation to use the DualShock 3, or any third party controller, with GH3. And this is why Activision is on my complete boycott list.

Figured I wouldn't be the only one. And if they allow Sony to violate the licensing then how can they try and hold another 3rd party accountable for doing the same? Will be interesting to see what happens.


As an aside:
I tried GH3 and didn't like it. I actually found the increased time given to hit notes really messed me up. I'd get way off time because of it. I'm sure I would have gotten used to it but I didn't like that =)

[lynx44]

Hardware would be one solution but luckily most of us have a piece of hardware in our home that would do most of the work. I assume any sniffing that has been done was done on a PC of some kind. These PCs are capable of connecting by USB to any other device. All that is needed is software on a PC that would convert one USB code into another. Controller connects to PC, PC connects to PS3.

Thats exactly the project I was working on, unfortunately it is not possible because the USB on both ends are hosts, and hosts can't talk to hosts. A host cannot emulate a client. There's no getting around this, I've been discussing this with some guys on the LibUSB mailing list:

http://www.nabble.com/PC-USB-port-as-Client--tf4900871.html

You need a USB client that identifies itself as a human interface device that can be programmed. Yes a microcontroller is a possibility, but taking it that far makes it sort of a business venture and I would like to produce something that is easily accessible to everyone for free, right away. Thats why I was hoping the PSP would work, but it sounds like it identifies itself as a mass storage device, and that is probably hardware coded, so that puts it out of the equation. Its really frustrating because in theory, the USB port is sitting there, in the end its simply sending out bits over a couple of wires, but the way the hardware interacts makes most any simple solution impossible.

Hardware wouldn't be such a bad solution if it is confirmed that there will be no patch, otherwise, I don't want to start working with a microcontroller only to find out that the patch will be released tomorrow.

-Matt

[filterban]

Thats exactly the project I was working on, unfortunately it is not possible because the USB on both ends are hosts, and hosts can't talk to hosts. A host cannot emulate a client. There's no getting around this, I've been discussing this with some guys on the LibUSB mailing list:

http://www.nabble.com/PC-USB-port-as-Client--tf4900871.html

You need a USB client that identifies itself as a human interface device that can be programmed. Yes a microcontroller is a possibility, but taking it that far makes it sort of a business venture and I would like to produce something that is easily accessible to everyone for free, right away. Thats why I was hoping the PSP would work, but it sounds like it identifies itself as a mass storage device, and that is probably hardware coded, so that puts it out of the equation. Its really frustrating because in theory, the USB port is sitting there, in the end its simply sending out bits over a couple of wires, but the way the hardware interacts makes most any simple solution impossible.

Hardware wouldn't be such a bad solution if it is confirmed that there will be no patch, otherwise, I don't want to start working with a microcontroller only to find out that the patch will be released tomorrow.

-Matt

Yeah, exactly. There's no reason to even invest time in making the software if Harmonix is going to patch this tomorrow.

It might, however, be worth doing a similar thing so that the Strat will work on Guitar Hero III, since Activision has been avoiding the possibility of a patch for a long time now.

[Xero314]

Thats exactly the project I was working on, unfortunately it is not possible because the USB on both ends are hosts, and hosts can't talk to hosts. A host cannot emulate a client. There's no getting around this, I've been discussing this with some guys on the LibUSB mailing list:

http://www.nabble.com/PC-USB-port-as-Client--tf4900871.html

You need a USB client that identifies itself as a human interface device that can be programmed. Yes a microcontroller is a possibility, but taking it that far makes it sort of a business venture and I would like to produce something that is easily accessible to everyone for free, right away. Thats why I was hoping the PSP would work, but it sounds like it identifies itself as a mass storage device, and that is probably hardware coded, so that puts it out of the equation. Its really frustrating because in theory, the USB port is sitting there, in the end its simply sending out bits over a couple of wires, but the way the hardware interacts makes most any simple solution impossible.

Hardware wouldn't be such a bad solution if it is confirmed that there will be no patch, otherwise, I don't want to start working with a microcontroller only to find out that the patch will be released tomorrow.

-Matt

Good to see I'm not the only one with the idea, but I will say don't give up on it just yet. Not to say anything about the guys working on LibUSB but I'm betting they haven't tried everything. Using a USB Bridge you can connect two hosts together over a USB connection (do a search for USB bridge, it is a fairly inexpensive piece of hardware that anyone can purchase from most electronics stores). Normally this is done using drivers on both ends, but for this to work it means that either one end is acting as the client and the other the host OR the are able to send raw commands over the USB connection.

Admittedly I have not had the time to try this but with if I have another developer to work with I would be happen to try and find a little more time to work on it.

[Iggylove]

Another interesting article. Says Activision is blocking the patch. Why the hate on the PS3 owners?

http://www.destructoid.com/rumor-activision-behind-rock-band-ps3-peripheral-compatibility-patch-delay--58054.phtml

[BriGuy]

Oh yeah, like the GH3 Les Pauls have been working so well too. I'd be curious to know what percentage of each guitar type was faulty. I wouldn't be surprised if more Les Pauls have been returned.
I know that I personally went through 3 Les Pauls before giving up and trading the game in for a PS2 version and I am really happy with my first Stratocaster and drum set.

Edit: I just read that last article about Activision blocking the release of the patch and man that is F***ed up!! What bastards!!!!! I guess that makes my decision easy on whether or not to buy another GH game. If they are actively going out of their way to screw over their customers so they have to buy their stupid broken guitars then they can go screw themselves!

[ScaryHead]

They really should get this out and let the users decide what is best instead of holding us hostage to their equipment only.

[DesiredFX]

The rumor of Activision blocking the patch is just a rumor until someone comes up with an indication that they filed for an injunction against getting it released.

I'm guessing at this point that Sony put the ball in Activision's court as a courtesy and Activision is trying to make sure that the patch doesn't make their product look bad (ie, functions properly) and maybe trying to use their upper-hand position to squeeze a concession or two from Sony on some other project they have going on.

With the Activision-Blizzard/Vivendi merger on the table, they stand to have a lot more clout in the industry in the near future. Sony's not in the power position, here.

[Xzyliac]

Everything made sense right up until RO blamed HMX for not wanting to share their code standards. Bull. How many times did HMX say if Activisiom would let them they'd LOVE to work with them to make it work.

Activision is trying too hard to not seem like they're whoring GH.

[lynx44]

Good to see I'm not the only one with the idea, but I will say don't give up on it just yet. Not to say anything about the guys working on LibUSB but I'm betting they haven't tried everything. Using a USB Bridge you can connect two hosts together over a USB connection (do a search for USB bridge, it is a fairly inexpensive piece of hardware that anyone can purchase from most electronics stores). Normally this is done using drivers on both ends, but for this to work it means that either one end is acting as the client and the other the host OR the are able to send raw commands over the USB connection.

Admittedly I have not had the time to try this but with if I have another developer to work with I would be happen to try and find a little more time to work on it.

Well if they come out with a formal announcement that the patch will not be released, I would be willing to check it out. I just don't want to invest time and money into a project that could be obsolete any minute now. The biggest problem I have with the bridge is simply the fact that people would have to go out and buy one of those cables, ideally it would be nice if the solution could be thrown together with things that a typical consumer (well, maybe slightly geeky) would have lying around the house.

Also, I guess I'm just not sure how that would work...perhaps you can program the endpoints on the bridge to mimic a device? If so that would be a pretty decent solution, but I kind of feel that if you're going to go far enough that people have to buy a $15 cable, you might as well start manufacturing something that can stand on its own so people don't have to lug around a computer. Either way, its worth a shot if this patch doesn't go through.

-Matt

[masterburrfoot]

Ya know when the RB guitars finally come out for individual sale...this whole patch debacle will become essentially a moot point. Sure it would be nice to use my Les Paul, but if it is going to be this much of a hassle, then I would rather wait and use the RB strat.

I think the strat feels better anyway. IMO the Les Paul isn't nearly as comfortable as the strat.

[lynx44]

Yeah, but in my opinion, I like either one. If one's only going to be for a bass player, I don't want to spend yet another $60 for yet another guitar sitting around my house. I already have 4 guitar controllers, I don't need another one taking up space. I'm not going to support companies who don't get their act together to get their peripherals to play nicely with each other. People that come over to my house to play aren't going to give a crap which guitar they are on, they'll be just as comfortable with either.

I personally don't think that its enough for them to simply release the Strat stand alone. Just because most of us are hardcore and are willing to throw our money at every iteration of a Rock game doesn't mean that we should have to. If someone prefers the strat, let them buy two. As for me and many others, I'd rather have less peripherals and spend less money.

BTW this isn't a personal attack at you by any means masterburrfoot, I just keep hearing this argument and I decided to voice my opinion about it.

-Matt

[Frederf]

Guitar Hero III's controller works in Rock Band on Xbox 360 because Harmonix worked with Red Octane on the previous Guitar Hero iterations; they know how Red Octane's hardware works. Rock Band's controller doesn't work in Guitar Hero III, however, because Red Octane didn't have access to the Rock Band controller prior to the game's release. Thus, no way to test it.

I don't quite believe that you have to have a fully built functioning controller in your hands before you can make a GH game work with it. That's why they have things like specifications, white papers, etc. Surely HMX had the white papers for the Strat controller standard set long before GHIII's code was being finalized. Were these specs withheld by HMX or were they simply not asked for by Activision?

Understandably, the near simultaneous release of the softwares has more than likely complicated the cross-compatibility procedure. If the releases were more than 5 months apart I wonder if we would have these issues on thsi scale?

PS3 rock band's (and presumably GH3's as well) controllers should have been made work more properly with the PS3 console. Sony should have seen to it that the function of the 3rd party controllers was as good as it could be, Bluetooth and all. It's Sony's business to consider the end and total experience of the user and especially never to stand in the way of good 3rd party equipment. That's why people like Apple and Nintendo, not because the 1st party core technology is good, but because they help peripheral technology develop properly and enforce certain standards that govern the end and total product experience.

Sony is ultimately judged based upon how well their product performs for the end user. Microsoft too with their difficult and expensive wireless licensing shot itself in the foot with this one. The control pad area of the drum controller should have been made nearly identical to the Xbox 1st party hand controller by Microsoft, but instead MS was probably guarding their designs too well and instead a drum controller was made with substandard buttons. As a result both Sony and Microsoft have had their products cheapened by not cooperating with their 3rd parties.


"I don't think we're too interested in having their guitars work on our game, because they're having a lot of issues with their guitars," said Huang. "From our standpoint, to be quite honest, if you know a competitor's product has issues, there's not a whole lot of motivation to make these problematic controllers work with your game. Why would you want to cause yourself the headache?"

That's also a bunch of BS. The Strat guitar controller is in most ways superior to their own and while there are some problems with some guitars made by the Rock Band side of things, HMX is extremely dedicated and very enthusiastic about getting working controllers into the hands of people who have been having problems.


Still, the situation leaves a bitter taste in Huang's month; before launch, Harmonix said their guitars adhered to an "open standard" on each platform. If a guitar didn't work in their game, it was the manufacturer's fault, claimed Harmonix. "There is no such thing as an open standard on PS3 for guitar controllers. That's just a crock. Open standard is something like USB or 802.11 [a wireless protocol]. They publish the spec and if you want to build a USB anything, you follow these specs. I defy anybody to show me, before our games were released, to show a published spec of how to build a guitar controller on PS3," said Huang.

The idea of an open spec suggests to me that there is a publicly available specification out there that any company can follow and be guaranteed of compatibility. I too must call HMX's "open spec" a complete crock unless they can demonstrate that it was freely available to the public/other companies including Activision. Anything less makes the "open" part of the "open spec" a lie.

[Hanover]

Rumor? Try plugging in the strat and start Guitar Hero III on the XBOX 360...it immediately slaps you on the wrist with a message saying, "YOU CANNOT PLAY THIS GAME WITH THAT GUITAR? HOW DARE YOU!" :)

Okay, I'm paraphrasing.. :)

Face it...GH III got bought by The Man. Sony should really step in as they really don't need something else for people to complain about on the PS3...and this is the kind of game that could make people decide which console they want to buy.

[masterburrfoot]

Lynx44-- I didn't take what you said as a personal attack. I agree with your points about multiple peripherals collecting dust and taking up space. I for one am still a tad bitter that I can't play my GH1 or GH2 with my GH3 Les Paul on the PS3. While that is probably for another forum...it still has some relevence with regard to what you are saying...everything should play nice together. I agree.

I was simply saying that this whole patch situation has everyone going wild (myself included). And I would rather the patch come out sooner than later so I can play my Les Paul on RB until the strat comes out. In fact, I was sorta put out that the special edition of RB didn't come with 2 guitars in the first place, but I kinda understand with the limited amount and all.

We are so used to having an unlimited array of options that when those options get taken away, it throws our whole world outta whack. I too want both the patch and the stand alone strat. Just like you, I want it all.

I just believe the patch would be less of an issue if there was the option of the stand alone guitar and vice versa.

[TKurata]

Another interesting article. Says Activision is blocking the patch. Why the hate on the PS3 owners?

http://www.destructoid.com/rumor-activision-behind-rock-band-ps3-peripheral-compatibility-patch-delay--58054.phtml

Follow this link to petition Activision if they are in fact blocking this in the 11th hour with a team of lawyers:

http://www.guitarhero.com/forums/14/forum_topics/22943

And yes, Guitar Hero was bought out by the man. So was Harmonix, in a way, cmon EA and MTV? Rock Band makes Guitar Hero look like a bad flash version of Frequency, but the RB peripherals were doomed from the start. My bank account also has a slight issue with the withheld $200 from EA right now...:mad:

No Bluetooth:mad:
No Compatibility:mad:
Poor batch of instruments:mad:

What else could go wrong? Jeez, I don't know who to blame but my gut says Activision.

Who else out there had some fantasy that the PS3 was gonna have all Bluetooth peripherals? I thought those USB ports might come in handy to plug in a keyboard at some point. Instead my rack is overflowing with USB cables and flashing dongles...(my first RB drum kit had to be unplugged and replugged (mid song usually) about every 5 minutes...probably destroyed one of my USB ports in frustration. 2nd one is good but my pedal is still first gen so...)

Summation: Damn the Man.

Oh yeah and sorry for the flow of consciousness post...

[Ventura]

I just believe the patch would be less of an issue if there was the option of the stand alone guitar and vice versa.

And ultimately, that's all Activision are going to accomplish with this.

All it's gonna do is just piss a lot of people off in the short term, because when standalone guitars for Rock Band are released, we'll all just buy one of those instead. But because Activision will have done everything they can to essentially screw with us all over christmas, a great many of us will think twice about ever purchasing another of their games again.

[Xero314]

Well if they come out with a formal announcement that the patch will not be released, I would be willing to check it out. I just don't want to invest time and money into a project that could be obsolete any minute now. The biggest problem I have with the bridge is simply the fact that people would have to go out and buy one of those cables, ideally it would be nice if the solution could be thrown together with things that a typical consumer (well, maybe slightly geeky) would have lying around the house.

Also, I guess I'm just not sure how that would work...perhaps you can program the endpoints on the bridge to mimic a device? If so that would be a pretty decent solution, but I kind of feel that if you're going to go far enough that people have to buy a $15 cable, you might as well start manufacturing something that can stand on its own so people don't have to lug around a computer. Either way, its worth a shot if this patch doesn't go through.

-Matt

I'm not at all against a hardware solution either and would probably be worth a fair amount of money to who ever actually goes through with it. But I'm not talking about a specific controller to system interface either, I'm talking about a USB byte code mapping device.

I am with you that waiting is the thing to do right now, I was only stating that this situation can be easily resolved, even more so if Sony would just put together a patch that would allow ID and Key Mappings on any USB device.