Why has Punk died?

[Punisher2191]

I am talking about GOOD punk (Misfits, Ramones, Clash, DK, ect) not Green Day, Blink 182, ect. (I don't consider them punk)

[tridentgum0]

It got swine flu.

[timmay9]

I'll agree that punk is one genre that has kind of burned out.

[supernova1324]

Dig deeper. All you are listing is mainstream bands. There is still a fairly good underground punk scene.

[schmeankman]

Nilsson Schmilsson killed punk!

[afterstasis]

good punk is still made, though not a lot of the more traditional variety (possibly because there isn't much left to do in that area?).

[a21schizoidman]

It's because you touch yourself at night.

[Rockbandfan23467]

Punk is not dead. Unfortunatly, neither is disco.

[timmay9]

good punk is still made, though not a lot of the more traditional variety (possibly because there isn't much left to do in that area?).

I'm not saying there isn't good punk being made, but it isn't comparable to before.

[afterstasis]

I'm not saying there isn't good punk being made, but it isn't comparable to before.

i agree.

hardcore punk is especially in an overall sad state right now.

[timmay9]

i agree.

hardcore punk is especially in an overall sad state right now.

I think it just is hard to match bands like DK, or crust punk like Amebix.

[Mystlyfe77]

Because I shot it. In the head.

That's right, I killed punk.

[Oscar-Rio]

i blame the likes of sum 41 and blink 182, and other similar bands.

[Hungryfreak]

Punk isn't dead, it just smells funny.

[TheClashTheClashTheClash]

Punk is not dead. Unfortunatly, neither is disco.

I lol'ed

[afterstasis]

I think it just is hard to match bands like DK, or crust punk like Amebix.

i definitely agree that the bar was set insanely high, and some fantastic bands have still popped up over the past decade, but for the most part it's been downhill.

[ROCKBANDFANATIC7526]

i blame the likes of sum 41 and blink 182, and other similar bands.

Blame their influences.;)

[cherokeesam]

1) Punk is far from dead.
2) It's nice that *you* don't consider Green Day and blink-182 punk, but yours is the minority view on the matter.
3) The simple fact of the matter is that times have changed, and punk no longer has an edge, because EVERYTHING ELSE has an edge. When Johnny Rotten and Joe Strummer and The Ramones and Iggy Pop and the VU exploded onto the scene in the 1970s, punk was literally a revolution. Those guys were true anarchists -- they didn't give a sh*t about anything except banging out their songs and living life as far out on the edge as they could take it. They rebelled against the government, against the establishment, against the music industry, against society, against everything. And it was shocking....at the time.

A few years down the road, and NOTHING was shocking anymore (hence the title of JA's album, one would think). Punk fed on itself, and became an ironic parody of itself --- instead of *rebelling,* punk rockers were actually *conforming* to an expected image and attitude. When nonconformity becomes the norm, it's no longer nonconformist, is it?

And what is there to rebel against in 2009? Where's the shock value when it's all been done before? There's no place for punk rock in this day and age....so all we get instead is the post-punkers who pay homage to the ancestors of the movement. Whether you like Green Day or blink or Sum or AFI or any of the others, the reality is that they're the equivalent of tribute bands who only *wish* they could have been at CBGB's in the heyday of the Sex Pistols and The Clash and The Ramones....

[Gatorguy91]

bigotry.

[afterstasis]

A few years down the road, and NOTHING was shocking anymore (hence the title of JA's album, one would think). Punk fed on itself, and became an ironic parody of itself --- instead of *rebelling,* punk rockers were actually *conforming* to an expected image and attitude. When nonconformity becomes the norm, it's no longer nonconformist, is it?

And what is there to rebel against in 2009? Where's the shock value when it's all been done before? There's no place for punk rock in this day and age....so all we get instead is the post-punkers who pay homage to the ancestors of the movement. Whether you like Green Day or blink or Sum or AFI or any of the others, the reality is that they're the equivalent of tribute bands who only *wish* they could have been at CBGB's in the heyday of the Sex Pistols and The Clash and The Ramones....

i think that's why the most interesting punk these days is not all that punk...

whether it's bone awl playing hateful crust punk-inspired black metal, bands like usaisamonster fusing strong native american beliefs with progressive-folk noise-rock, or noise artists hepetitus youth busting out impromptu sets in the middle of a shopping mall.

i have little interest in modern bands trying to revive the sound of the ramones or whatever (though if the songs are good i'll still give 'em a listen).

[Bulkdarthdan]

1) Punk is far from dead.
2) It's nice that *you* don't consider Green Day and blink-182 punk, but yours is the minority view on the matter.
3) The simple fact of the matter is that times have changed, and punk no longer has an edge, because EVERYTHING ELSE has an edge. When Johnny Rotten and Joe Strummer and The Ramones and Iggy Pop and the VU exploded onto the scene in the 1970s, punk was literally a revolution. Those guys were true anarchists -- they didn't give a sh*t about anything except banging out their songs and living life as far out on the edge as they could take it. They rebelled against the government, against the establishment, against the music industry, against society, against everything. And it was shocking....at the time.

A few years down the road, and NOTHING was shocking anymore (hence the title of JA's album, one would think). Punk fed on itself, and became an ironic parody of itself --- instead of *rebelling,* punk rockers were actually *conforming* to an expected image and attitude. When nonconformity becomes the norm, it's no longer nonconformist, is it?

And what is there to rebel against in 2009? Where's the shock value when it's all been done before? There's no place for punk rock in this day and age....so all we get instead is the post-punkers who pay homage to the ancestors of the movement. Whether you like Green Day or blink or Sum or AFI or any of the others, the reality is that they're the equivalent of tribute bands who only *wish* they could have been at CBGB's in the heyday of the Sex Pistols and The Clash and The Ramones....

This.

[timmay9]

Punk isn't dead, it just smells funny.
That's jazz silly.


1) Punk is far from dead.
2) It's nice that *you* don't consider Green Day and blink-182 punk, but yours is the minority view on the matter.
3) The simple fact of the matter is that times have changed, and punk no longer has an edge, because EVERYTHING ELSE has an edge. When Johnny Rotten and Joe Strummer and The Ramones and Iggy Pop and the VU exploded onto the scene in the 1970s, punk was literally a revolution. Those guys were true anarchists -- they didn't give a sh*t about anything except banging out their songs and living life as far out on the edge as they could take it. They rebelled against the government, against the establishment, against the music industry, against society, against everything. And it was shocking....at the time.

A few years down the road, and NOTHING was shocking anymore (hence the title of JA's album, one would think). Punk fed on itself, and became an ironic parody of itself --- instead of *rebelling,* punk rockers were actually *conforming* to an expected image and attitude. When nonconformity becomes the norm, it's no longer nonconformist, is it?

And what is there to rebel against in 2009? Where's the shock value when it's all been done before? There's no place for punk rock in this day and age....so all we get instead is the post-punkers who pay homage to the ancestors of the movement. Whether you like Green Day or blink or Sum or AFI or any of the others, the reality is that they're the equivalent of tribute bands who only *wish* they could have been at CBGB's in the heyday of the Sex Pistols and The Clash and The Ramones....
Lolwut.


The Ramones....Those guys were true anarchists -- they didn't give a sh*t about anything except banging out their songs and living life as far out on the edge as they could take it. They rebelled against the government, against the establishment, against the music industry, against society, against everything. And it was shocking....at the time.
Again, lolwut.

[TheClashTheClashTheClash]

1) Punk is far from dead.
2) It's nice that *you* don't consider Green Day and blink-182 punk, but yours is the minority view on the matter.
3) The simple fact of the matter is that times have changed, and punk no longer has an edge, because EVERYTHING ELSE has an edge. When Johnny Rotten and Joe Strummer and The Ramones and Iggy Pop and the VU exploded onto the scene in the 1970s, punk was literally a revolution. Those guys were true anarchists -- they didn't give a sh*t about anything except banging out their songs and living life as far out on the edge as they could take it. They rebelled against the government, against the establishment, against the music industry, against society, against everything. And it was shocking....at the time.

A few years down the road, and NOTHING was shocking anymore (hence the title of JA's album, one would think). Punk fed on itself, and became an ironic parody of itself --- instead of *rebelling,* punk rockers were actually *conforming* to an expected image and attitude. When nonconformity becomes the norm, it's no longer nonconformist, is it?

And what is there to rebel against in 2009? Where's the shock value when it's all been done before? There's no place for punk rock in this day and age....so all we get instead is the post-punkers who pay homage to the ancestors of the movement. Whether you like Green Day or blink or Sum or AFI or any of the others, the reality is that they're the equivalent of tribute bands who only *wish* they could have been at CBGB's in the heyday of the Sex Pistols and The Clash and The Ramones....

Joe wasn't an anarchist, he just wanted reform in the gov't. Very liberal but not anarchist.

[ROCKBANDFANATIC7526]

That's jazz silly.


Lolwut.

Again, lolwut.

Ummm, you weren't around, none of us were, but Sam was.

[defenestrater]

Punk fed on itself, and became an ironic parody of itself --- instead of *rebelling,* punk rockers were actually *conforming* to an expected image and attitude.



Sam makes good points, but personally I think it was this ^ more than anything. An awful lot of the original punk and post punk musicians have pointed out just how quickly punk, a genre founded at least in part on the idea that musically, anyone could do anything, turned into a strict set of rules about what is and isn't punk.

[Runesmith]

Sam makes good points, but personally I think it was this ^ more than anything. An awful lot of the original punk and post punk musicians have pointed out just how quickly punk, a genre founded at least in part on the idea that musically, anyone could do anything, turned into a strict set of rules about what is and isn't punk.

Reminds me of that little speech from SLC Punk.

[timmay9]

Ummm, you weren't around, none of us were, but Sam was.

The VU were never a part of the punk scene, and their last true album was released in 1970.

And the Ramones/Clash were anything but anarchists. In fact, one of the Ramones was a hardcore republican.

[TheClashTheClashTheClash]

The VU were never a part of the punk scene, and their last true album was released in 1970.

And the Ramones/Clash were anything but anarchists. In fact, one of the Ramones was a harcore republican.

Yes, Johnny said at the Rock N Roll HOF induction,"God Bless George Bush's presidency"

[cherokeesam]

Yes, Johnny said at the Rock N Roll HOF induction,"God Bless George Bush's presidency"

In the late 70s (i.e., the Carter Administration), being a Republican made *you* the rebel outcast.

[timmay9]

In the late 70s (i.e., the Carter Administration), being a Republican made *you* the rebel outcast.

:confused: Since when was Carter a popular president?

[cherokeesam]

:confused: Since when was Carter a popular president?

What does popularity have to do with it?

The point is that in the late 70s, when punk blew up, both the US and the UK were controlled by lefty-liberal administrations. So being a Republican/Conservative in that era automatically made you anti-administration.

[chumsicles]

Every subgenre dies out when it gets saturated with too many mediocre copy-cat bands. Once all the new bands coming out of a specific genre start to all sound the same and bring nothing new or worthwhile to the scene, people get tired of that whole style and move on to different music

[AKALink]

It didn't die it evolved, like grunge
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fqUJ8nB18sQ

[Mystlyfe77]

It didn't die it evolved, like grunge
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fqUJ8nB18sQ

Is that supposed to be the evolution of punk?

[TheClashTheClashTheClash]

Is that supposed to be the evolution of punk?

Hell no

[Alright_Computer]

Punk isn't dead, it just smells funny.

You beat me to the Zappa paraphrase! Dammit!


It didn't die it evolved, like grunge
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fqUJ8nB18sQ

lolwut????

[afterstasis]

Is that supposed to be the evolution of punk?

i think he messed up the URL... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZtKn9NwaDqk

[AKALink]

You beat me to the Zappa paraphrase! Dammit!



lolwut????
I think no one should take anything I take seriously when I'm posting around 11 at night.

Yeah, well actually. I couldn't tell you what Grunge evolved into. I do know that Disco evolved into Techno, metal evolved into several things including grunge. Punk became some kind of alt rock punk (like the new green day). Folk Rock became music like that of Wilco and my Morning Jacket.

[afterstasis]

I think no one should take anything I take seriously when I'm posting around 11 at night.

Yeah, well actually. I couldn't tell you what Grunge evolved into. I do know that Disco evolved into Techno, metal evolved into several things including grunge. Punk became some kind of alt rock punk (like the new green day). Folk Rock became music like that of Wilco and my Morning Jacket.

what is this post?

[Mystlyfe77]

I do know that Disco evolved into Techno, metal evolved into several things including grunge.

/facepalm


Also, to 1 up 'stasis (though not in the homosexuality department):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iQ2E8-XoeLU

[AKALink]

what is this post?

Beats me, my eyes so dilated you've become my pupil. I don't want to go to bead though.

But music goes in cycles, we will see a resurgence in the future. Look at it this way, it only took 700 years for triads to make a comeback.

[ROCKBANDFANATIC7526]

Beats me, my eyes so dilated you've become my pupil. I don't want to go to bead though.

But music goes in cycles, we will see a resurgence in the future. Look at it this way, it only took 700 years for triads to make a comeback.

I think you need to lay off the sauce.

[timmay9]

I think you need to lay off the sauce.

Whatever it is, he needs to lay off of it.

[Mystlyfe77]

It appears his avatar is Haruhi. That would explain a lot. I don't think it's possible for a sentient being to enjoy that show.

[AKALink]

Whatever it is, he needs to lay off of it.

Apparently fatigue is just as mind altering as substances (like alcohol) . Well in the craziness factors. I don't see why you guys think I sound so crazy right now. To me I make perfect sense, except when I purposely put in stuff to make myself sound drunk; I need cool water and maybe somebodies daughter (<example)

[Mystlyfe77]

Apparently fatigue is just as mind altering as substances (like alcohol) . Well in the craziness factors. I don't see why you guys think I sound so crazy right now. To me I make perfect sense, except when I purposely put in stuff to make myself sound drunk; I need cool water and maybe somebodies daughter (<example)

Have you ever been drunk?

[AKALink]

Have you ever been drunk?

No... I actually never abused any drugs in my life. The reason I go Berlioz( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hector_Berlioz for ref) at night is beyond me.

[Alright_Computer]

I think no one should take anything I take seriously when I'm posting around 11 at night.

Yeah, well actually. I couldn't tell you what Grunge evolved into. I do know that Disco evolved into Techno, metal evolved into several things including grunge. Punk became some kind of alt rock punk (like the new green day). Folk Rock became music like that of Wilco and my Morning Jacket.

I'll just write this entire post off as sleep-deprived (and incorrect) ramblings and move on. Disco has little to do with techno, metal has relatively little to do with grunge, Green Day have little to do with alternative, and Wilco and MMJ don't have anything to do with folk outside of the albums Wilco did with Billy Bragg and the occasional ballad here and there.

[defenestrater]

Disco has little to do with techno

I'd actually disagree with you on this one. Depending on how precisely you want to define "techno" you can draw a pretty straight line from disco to house music, which people often generically refer to as techno.

But even beyond that, european disco, especially Giorgio Moroder, often gets trotted out as a direct influence on actual, legitimate, techno. I suppose its a moot point though, the person you're responding to seems kind of crazy :p

[HyeJinx1984]

I'll agree that punk is one genre that has kind of burned out.

I think more than anything, Punk morphed. I'd say out of all the major rock sub-genres, Punk has spawned the most new genres out of it. Goth, Alternative, Emo, Grunge, a lot of this is stuff that Punk turned into for better or for worse.

[Alright_Computer]

I'd actually disagree with you on this one. Depending on how precisely you want to define "techno" you can draw a pretty straight line from disco to house music, which people often generically refer to as techno.

But even beyond that, european disco, especially Giorgio Moroder, often gets trotted out as a direct influence on actual, legitimate, techno. I suppose its a moot point though, the person you're responding to seems kind of crazy :p

Well, I was referring to actual techno, not electronic music. And European disco did have some influence on techno, but I guessed he was referring to more the Bee Gees and KC and the Sunshine Band than anything else.

[afterstasis]

i'm so disappointed no one's commenting on my hunx & his punx video... frickin' sneak peek at some upcoming DLC right here.

[DerTommissar]

And what is there to rebel against in 2009? Where's the shock value when it's all been done before?

You put on a suit and tie, go to church, and cut your hair. Then you perform a bunch of songs about how the bright shiny future the social engineers of the past promised was a bunch of bull.

If I were to form a punk band today, I'd call it No We Can't.

There's always something to rebel against. It's just a matter of who will be offended when their sacred cows get gored.

[supernova1324]

I'll just write this entire post off as sleep-deprived (and incorrect) ramblings and move on. Disco has little to do with techno, metal has relatively little to do with grunge, Green Day have little to do with alternative, and Wilco and MMJ don't have anything to do with folk outside of the albums Wilco did with Billy Bragg and the occasional ballad here and there.

Grunge is arguable. It became a mix of hardcore punk and heavy metal, which had to be influenced by metal in some way.

[Onslaught_fei]

Metal itself still exists in its original form or relatively close to its spirit.

For punk Im not sure when it went from its tear down the government, reduce world orders, and stop the corruption libertarian stylings to what was once the hippie liberal beliefs of social awareness and peace keeping that it is now.

[macamatic]

I think more than anything, Punk morphed. I'd say out of all the major rock sub-genres, Punk has spawned the most new genres out of it. Goth, Alternative, Emo, Grunge, a lot of this is stuff that Punk turned into for better or for worse.
The number of punk subgenres doesn't begin to compare to metal.

[Onslaught_fei]

The number of punk subgenres doesn't begin to compare to metal.

I actually think there's more punk. First off anything with a -core in reference to hardcore punk then everything from horror punk, riot grrrl, psychobilly, oi, crust, ska punk... Not to mention all of the major off-shoots from new wave, alternative, indie, etc...

[Nuff_Said]

The number of punk subgenres doesn't begin to compare to metal.

really?

[warthogdb]

You put on a suit and tie, go to church, and cut your hair. Then you perform a bunch of songs about how the bright shiny future the social engineers of the past promised was a bunch of bull.

If I were to form a punk band today, I'd call it No We Can't.

There's always something to rebel against. It's just a matter of who will be offended when their sacred cows get gored.

This is correct. Becoming a PC lemming and surrendering your DIY spirit is what can kill punk. Punk was in part a reaction to the hippie fascism that forced all art into lock step with its ideals with no allowance for dissent. Hollywood and music culture has gotten to that point again.

If you think that your liberty isn't being challenged by the current administration, you better open your eyes. We've traded one ideologue for another.

[Onslaught_fei]

This is correct. Becoming a PC lemming and surrendering your DIY spirit is what can kill punk. Punk was in part a reaction to the hippie fascism that forced all art into lock step with its ideals with no allowance for dissent. Hollywood and music culture has gotten to that point again.

If you think that your liberty isn't being challenged by the current administration, you better open your eyes. We've traded one ideologue for another.

Well kinda hard when both parties are big government parties.

[ArmsAreLoud]

metal has relatively little to do with grunge
What?

...Yeah, old post, and not in the slightest relevant to the current topic, but Soundgarden's sound had more to do with Black Sabbath then it did any punk bands. Sure, they may be more of the exception to the rule of having the balance tipped more on the metal side rather than the punk, but grunge was definately a mix of old school heavy metal and punk.

And as for the current topic, if I were to make a punk band, it would be called "Conform To Rebellion". Either that or "Change Sucks". They're both topics that a new, "real" punk band can rise out of.

[Mystlyfe77]

i'm so disappointed no one's commenting on my hunx & his punx video... frickin' sneak peek at some upcoming DLC right here.

Hey now, I attempted to one-up it (though not really, it's difficult to one-up Hunx & His Punx) with Zombina & the Skeletones. Nobody commented on that either. :(

[Mantis15]

Referring to why punk died...

Punk was that one kid in class who didn't do what the other kids did.

When they played during recess, Punk went to smoke. You understand what I'm saying.

Punk was not doing what others did, the odd one out.

The moment there was a second punk band, that's when it died.

That's just me though...

[ArmsAreLoud]

So the Sex Pistols killed punk?

...Gee, I've been thinking that forever.

[Alright_Computer]

What?

...Yeah, old post, and not in the slightest relevant to the current topic, but Soundgarden's sound had more to do with Black Sabbath then it did any punk bands. Sure, they may be more of the exception to the rule of having the balance tipped more on the metal side rather than the punk, but grunge was definately a mix of old school heavy metal and punk.

And as for the current topic, if I were to make a punk band, it would be called "Conform To Rebellion". Either that or "Change Sucks". They're both topics that a new, "real" punk band can rise out of.

But Soundgarden isn't really "true" grunge. And notice I said relatively little, not no influence at all. It wasn't an offshoot or an evolution of metal like he was saying, it just took metal influence. Likewise, it can't be considered true punk even though it took heavy influence from hardcore.

[ArmsAreLoud]

I would argue against Soundgarden not being "true" grunge, as grunge is hardly a genre characterized by similarity in sound. They were grunge before Nirvana was a band.

[Mantis15]

So the Sex Pistols killed punk?

...Gee, I've been thinking that forever.

Just to clarify also, I'm not saying the second punk band onwards because their music was terrible. I love the Sex Pistols as much as the next guy.

I guess I should have worded it differently, possibly like this.

"The moment there was a second punk band, that's when the concept of punk died"

Meaning the genre itself didn't die, but the meaning of punk just died.

If you haven't guessed by now, I'm bad at getting my point across the table. >_>

[Buffdog18]

Punk is far from dead, more like its hiding on us.

[Alright_Computer]

I said they weren't "true" grunge because they didn't really have anything in common with most other grunge bands.

[tridentgum0]

Really, punk died because it didn't give me my money.

[Bub]

Punk died 'cause I shot it.

[Mystlyfe77]

Punk died 'cause I shot it.

Way to steal my quote from like page 3.

[Bub]

Way to steal my quote from like page 3.

Totally didn't even see it.

[Onslaught_fei]

My thing shows this thread still on page 2. What settings you runnin?

[ArmsAreLoud]

I said they weren't "true" grunge because they didn't really have anything in common with most other grunge bands.

Pearl Jam didn't really have anything in common with Nirvana. Like I said, unifying them all under the grunge moniker had nothing to do with their sound; it's more of a location thing, since basically everyone except for those crazy Seattle kids were blinded by the shine of glam. They were the only ones doing it at that point, so they all got their own genre even though there are oh so many more genres that they could have been placed in. The exception being STP, of course, but at the time of their debut everyone was convinced they were really Pearl Jam in disguise, so they got shoved into the label without being from Seattle.

[thedaniel]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xCKzck-8sNM

Listen to what Ian McKaye says at the beginning of that video. People said at the end of the seventies that punk was dead and, well, all saw how that turned out.
Also, there is plenty of good punk being made today, you just aren't looking hard enough.

[timmay9]

Hey now, I attempted to one-up it (though not really, it's difficult to one-up Hunx & His Punx) with Zombina & the Skeletones. Nobody commented on that either. :(

They both were a little fruity for my tastes. :p

[warthogdb]

Well kinda hard when both parties are big government parties.

I'm disappointed, I expected a passionate essay on libertarian ideals. I threw you a fastball down the middle.

However, there is wisdom in your few words. More government equals less freedom and punk rock, well rock n roll in general, is freedom. Does anyone disagree? This administration will increase the size of government to unprecedented levels so that they can force their agenda on the American people. This isn't really even debatable. They aren't even hiding it. This is completely not congruent with anarchy obviously but also directly opposes the DIY spirit that punk was born of.

Punk at large clearly aligned itself with a candidate in the last election. Punk rock and all art really should be a watch dog not the lap dog like it has become. If honest opposition is not allowed to have a voice in the movement then punk truly is dead.

[BreakingPunk]

Punk isn't dead Tim Armstrong said so!

[ArmsAreLoud]

I'm disappointed, I expected a passionate essay on libertarian ideals. I threw you a fastball down the middle.

However, there is wisdom in your few words. More government equals less freedom and punk rock, well rock n roll in general, is freedom. Does anyone disagree? This administration will increase the size of government to unprecedented levels so that they can force their agenda on the American people. This isn't really even debatable. They aren't even hiding it. This is completely not congruent with anarchy obviously but also directly opposes the DIY spirit that punk was born of.

Punk at large clearly aligned itself with a candidate in the last election. Punk rock and all art really should be a watch dog not the lap dog like it has become. If honest opposition is not allowed to have a voice in the movement then punk truly is dead.

I disagree that all government means less freedom; a government that does what it was made to do (support the people) will give you the right to leave your home without risk of being shot at for the loose change in your pocket. As for the second paragraph, I completely agree. Nothing is more dangerous than a man that cannot be questioned.

[Onslaught_fei]

I disagree that all government means less freedom; a government that does what it was made to do (support the people) will give you the right to leave your home without risk of being shot at for the loose change in your pocket. As for the second paragraph, I completely agree. Nothing is more dangerous than a man that cannot be questioned.

In those situations of anarchy you have the right to shoot back or kill any hobos you want. The ideal political structure of freedom would have a strong enough government to enforce civility but not so strong that it represses victimless acts and expressions.

[macamatic]

I actually think there's more punk. First off anything with a -core in reference to hardcore punk then everything from horror punk, riot grrrl, psychobilly, oi, crust, ska punk... Not to mention all of the major off-shoots from new wave, alternative, indie, etc...
Most of those are fusion genres, not sub-genres (particularly ska punk and -core genres). There's a difference. Even crust punk is arguably a fusion genre.

[ArmsAreLoud]

In those situations of anarchy you have the right to shoot back or kill any hobos you want. The ideal political structure of freedom would have a strong enough government to enforce civility but not so strong that it represses victimless acts and expressions.

The problem is, it is near impossible to balance the two. Personally, I'd rather walk the streets without feeling that I might have to shoot back at something. If the goverment maintains order (within reason, obviously; 1984 was an awesome book but would not be fun IRL), then that is wonderful. However, when the government starts pressing its thumb on the private sector... *coughobamabuyingupgeneralmotorscoughcough*

[Sargehalo51]

I am talking about GOOD punk (Misfits, Ramones, Clash, DK, ect) not Green Day, Blink 182, ect. (I don't consider them punk)

Personally, I think Green Day, Blink 182 are GOOD punk rock, just like I think the Ramones and the Clash were good.

What makes good punk rock (or any other genre) is totally subjective. There are plenty of punk bands out there, no matter if you consider them on-par with your favorites. So to answer the question that your thread is based on, punk has not died, you just personally don't happen to like the bands out there now.

This thread is a failure.

[macamatic]

The problem is, it is near impossible to balance the two. Personally, I'd rather walk the streets without feeling that I might have to shoot back at something. If the goverment maintains order (within reason, obviously; 1984 was an awesome book but would not be fun IRL), then that is wonderful. However, when the government starts pressing its thumb on the private sector... *coughobamabuyingupgeneralmotorscoughcough*
Sometimes, the government has to intervene. I think it was pretty clear that Bush's Reaganomic approach wasn't working.

[Soror_YZBL]

I am talking about GOOD punk (Misfits, Ramones, Clash, DK, ect) not Green Day, Blink 182, ect. (I don't consider them punk)

It doesn't matter what you think.

[Onslaught_fei]

Most of those are fusion genres, not sub-genres (particularly ska punk and -core genres). There's a difference. Even crust punk is arguably a fusion genre.

Your point? Thrash metal powers from punk, subsequently everything that grew out from thrash was effected. The only pure metal subgenre would be power and doom metal.

[Onslaught_fei]

The problem is, it is near impossible to balance the two. Personally, I'd rather walk the streets without feeling that I might have to shoot back at something. If the goverment maintains order (within reason, obviously; 1984 was an awesome book but would not be fun IRL), then that is wonderful. However, when the government starts pressing its thumb on the private sector... *coughobamabuyingupgeneralmotorscoughcough*

Yeah its near impossible because people in power abuse it.

[ArmsAreLoud]

Sometimes, the government has to intervene. I think it was pretty clear that Bush's Reaganomic approach wasn't working.

Things didn't start messing up until late into his presidency, and Obama's idea that he can just throw money at everything until it all gets better is obviously not working either, and seems to be digging us into a far deeper hole than Bush ever would have.

[Onslaught_fei]

No things with Bush were messed up from the get go. He refused to let the economic cycle take its normal course and let a natural, easy recession set in. Instead he let interest rates continue to plummet to an all time low and continued to devalue the USD causing the eventual mega recession.

[warthogdb]

Sometimes, the government has to intervene. I think it was pretty clear that Bush's Reaganomic approach wasn't working.

When have oppressive taxation, massive deficits, and over-regulation worked?

[Rockbandfan23467]

zomg politics!

[JukeBoxHero]

i'm so disappointed no one's commenting on my hunx & his punx video... frickin' sneak peek at some upcoming DLC right here.

I enjoyed the song but my head is hurting from using cleaners.

[rbandghpingu]

The underground scene is where it's at. You just need to dig deeper. I live in a small suburb, but there are two good punk bands around my area. And there's still some ok mainstream stuff. I'm listening to T.S.O.L.'s new album right now and it's actually pretty good.

As for the idea of punk, it's just misunderstood. I'm one of the few punk kids at my school and I ALWAYS get labeled as an emo, just because I wear tight pants or listen to Black Flag (Black Flag = Emo? I think not). I think punk is not conformity as of the 21st century. Rap is conformist, why do you think you see people with flat brim hats and sagging pants that drop f-bombs nowadays?

[Onslaught_fei]

Hahaha, man I love you jokesters.

[macamatic]

Things didn't start messing up until late into his presidency, and Obama's idea that he can just throw money at everything until it all gets better is obviously not working either, and seems to be digging us into a far deeper hole than Bush ever would have.
Seriously? Obama has been in office for just over four months. You can't judge a long-term economic strategy on that kind of time frame.


When have oppressive taxation, massive deficits, and over-regulation worked?
When has sitting back and doing nothing worked?

The last time the government sat by and did nothing to protect the economy was in the late 1920s. Guess what happened.


Your point? Thrash metal powers from punk, subsequently everything that grew out from thrash was effected. The only pure metal subgenre would be power and doom metal.
It doesn't have to be pure - a subgenre with influences can be considered a subgenre. It's just that things like metalcore are more like mixing the two than simply playing one style with a little bit of the other thrown in.

As Myst said in the Punk vs. Metal thread, though, so much of the two are intertwined now that it's not hard to follow a clear path from Black Sabbath to The Clash.

[Alright_Computer]

Guess what happened.

Everyone hugged and made up?

[Onslaught_fei]

It doesn't have to be pure - a subgenre with influences can be considered a subgenre. It's just that things like metalcore are more like mixing the two than simply playing one style with a little bit of the other thrown in.

Thats my point, punk has more subgenres than metal, all things considered.

[macamatic]

Thats my point, punk has more subgenres than metal, all things considered.
Hmm, I guess you may be right. It just occurred to me that even the most obscure metal genres (blackened death metal, melodic black metal, pornogrind/goregrind, that sort of thing), which I was including in my mental estimate, are more fusions genres than subgenres. I don't think there's any question on which has more genres represented well today though.

[warthogdb]

When has sitting back and doing nothing worked?

How about the last 30 years? All of the growth in the stock market and economic prosperity experienced in this country under presidents from both parties is a direct result of the deregulation and lower taxes brought about in the early 80s. Recessions happen and the economy corrects itself. Obsolete industries evolve or go away.

To bring this back to the music...
I may not have all the answers but I should at least be allowed to ask the questions. The current entertainment environment does not allow healthy opposition.

What we have are a bunch of lemmings being taught not to question and to vilify those who do and regardless of who is in charge that is scary to me.

[Mystlyfe77]

Your point? Thrash metal powers from punk, subsequently everything that grew out from thrash was effected. The only pure metal subgenre would be power and doom metal.

Even doom metal takes heavy influence from stoner and psychedelic rock. Even though sludge evolved heavily from doom, it's hard to argue that modern doom bands don't take influence from sludge as well.


Thats my point, punk has more subgenres than metal, all things considered.

I think the two would be pretty close. Both have tons.


How about the last 30 years? All of the growth in the stock market and economic prosperity experienced in this country under presidents from both parties is a direct result of the deregulation and lower taxes brought about in the early 80s. Recessions happen and the economy corrects itself. Obsolete industries evolve or go away.

Ummm, no?
Deregulation has led to recession after recession. Every time the gov't has regained the reigns, it has led us out of recession. Look at the S&L crisis.

[cherokeesam]

What we have are a bunch of lemmings being taught not to question and to vilify those who do and regardless of who is in charge that is scary to me.

Agree 100 percent.

During the Bush years, if any singer dared to question the government, they were vilified (Dixie Chicks). Now, if any artist dares to question the Obama government, they're getting vilified, too. (Ref. a growing number of hip-hop artists who are disenchanted with Obama, and receive tons of hate mail/death threats because of their stance.)

[Mystlyfe77]

During the Bush years, if any singer dared to question the government, they were vilified (Dixie Chicks). Now, if any artist dares to question the Obama government, they're getting vilified, too. (Ref. a growing number of hip-hop artists who are disenchanted with Obama, and receive tons of hate mail/death threats because of their stance.)

Only if you're in their "stereotypical genre."
It's kinda like if you walked into a evangelical church and started bashing the Republican party. While not strictly associated with the party, a vast majority of the supporters affiliate themselves with that party, and thus will lash out as you when you challenge their beliefs and leaders.

[Rockbandfan23467]

Yeah, most Country fans are Republicans and most Rap fans are Democrats, so if an artist speaks out against the party most of their fans like, they are vilified.

[General Lein979]

Time, things get old the people who liked punk get into music and create their own genres.

[Nuff_Said]

this thread is waking a tight-rope.

[cherokeesam]

this thread is waking a tight-rope.

"Waking," or "walking?"
Cuz I really don't wanna wake up no tightrope....no telling what it might do....:(

[Oscar-Rio]

"Waking," or "walking?"
Cuz I really don't wanna wake up no tightrope....no telling what it might do....:(

lol, now wouldn't that be something. Whatever you're taking to make yourself sleep that well that someone could position you on a tight-rope while you sleep, i want some of it.

[packerfan8675309]

It didn't die it evolved, like grunge
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fqUJ8nB18sQ

i agree with the statement that punk evolved. The URL, not so much.

[DerTommissar]

The last time the government sat by and did nothing to protect the economy was in the late 1920s. Guess what happened.


I'm sorry, but that's incorrect. President Hoover passed the Smoot-Hawley Act, which set a very high tarriff in the hopes that forcing folks to "buy American" would bolster the economy. He also set up the Reconstruction Finance Corporation to aid businesses. These actions (especially the tarriff) had a hugely adverse effect on the economy.

In many ways, Hoover's response has been echoed by Bush and Obama. In fact, a strong argument can be made that Roosevelt's New Deal did little to help, and may have deepened, the period of the Great Depression.

[My name is Fez]

It doesn't matter what you think.

Seconded.

"I'M COOL BECAUSE I LIKE ALL THESE BANDS FROM THE 70'S AND NOT THE NEW BANDS. **** THIS NEW STUFF."

As far as why punk died (to be on topic and dodge the politics topic), timmay (at least I think it was tiammy) hit it really well.

But, to everyone saying "there's ALWAYS something to rebel against.": Yes, it's true, there will always be something to rebel against. But how long will rebelling for the sake of rebelling be cool? How long will people care that you just flat out don't like the government? How long will people follow a fight that has no end? Anarchy is a train of thought with half the tracks missing. Srsly.

Punk is one genre that can not remain as it was.

Also, AKALink is an idiot. I don't know how the hell he got over 1,000 posts and didn't get chased off. Either he has an incredible will to be here, or his other posts are much, much more well thought out.

[Soror_YZBL]

Yes, it's true, there will always be something to rebel against. But how long will rebelling for the sake of rebelling be cool? How long will people care that you just flat out don't like the government? How long will people follow a fight that has no end? Anarchy is a train of thought with half the tracks missing. Srsly.

As long as there are teenagers, there will be rebellion for the sake of rebellion.

[Mystlyfe77]

As long as there are teenagers, there will be rebellion for the sake of rebellion.

If I wasn't too old, I'd rebel against the rebellion for the sake of rebellion.

[warthogdb]

If I wasn't too old, I'd rebel against the rebellion for the sake of rebellion.

I think that is called conforming but then so is a fair percentage of teenage rebellion.

[Soror_YZBL]

I think that is called conforming but then so is a fair percentage of teenage rebellion.

Teenage rebellion is an interesting phenomenon.

[Lolicat]

Teenage rebellion is an interesting phenomenon.

Only viewed as a developing phenomenon rather than individual case studies, which tend to be rather plagaristic or marked by obvious suppressions.

[Soror_YZBL]

Only viewed as a developing phenomenon rather than individual case studies, which tend to be rather plagaristic or marked by obvious suppressions.

ya, individually, their a bunch a whiny *****es (myself at that age included)

[Lolicat]

ya, individually, their a bunch a whiny *****es (myself at that age included)

Yea, looking back I really do hate myself, but not in the way I claimed.

[ArmsAreLoud]

If I wasn't too old, I'd rebel against the rebellion for the sake of rebellion.

Then go out there and be a capitalist pig so you can squash all the whiny punk kids under your thumb!

[Lolicat]

Then go out there and be a capitalist pig so you can squash all the whiny punk kids under your thumb!

Actually rebelling against rebellion for the sake of rebellion might be better served if you were just a drone in some big multinational.

[ArmsAreLoud]

If you were a drone then you would not be able to rebel against anything. In order to properly rebel against rebellion for the sake of rebellion, one must be the one in charge of the drones.

[Lolicat]

But surely the very lack of visible revolutionary zeal is a part of rebelling against rebellion?

[ArmsAreLoud]

Hmm... I suppose so. I guess we'll never know if apathy works just as well if not better than crushing those fools' hopes and dreams and telling them to get back to work.

...Did you just change your sig? Because if so, it's awesomely hilarious, and if not, I can't believe I didn't notice it before.

[JukeBoxHero]

Hmm... I suppose so. I guess we'll never know if apathy works just as well if not better than crushing those fools' hopes and dreams and telling them to get back to work.

...Did you just change your sig? Because if so, it's awesomely hilarious, and if not, I can't believe I didn't notice it before.

Nope, that's been his signature for awhile now.

[jjb0rdell0]

I think punk will die the moment nobody asks the questions

"Who says?", "How come?" & "Why not this way?"

Bands in the mid-70s started asking those questions about the way rock was played before...

Bands have asked those questions about a lot of things, government included...

as long as those questions are asked by people...punk wont die...as far as I'm concerned...

[warthogdb]

Punk lives as long as three kids can decide to become a band, spend a couple of hundred dollars each at the pawn shop, and come home and immediately start expressing themselves in spite of their level of skill or lack of training.

[Lolicat]

Nope, that's been his signature for awhile now.

This. It was my sig when I first joined up and pissed some of the members off a lot along with my Riot Grrrl threads.

[Rockbandfan23467]

I'm sorry, but that's incorrect. President Hoover passed the Smoot-Hawley Act, which set a very high tarriff in the hopes that forcing folks to "buy American" would bolster the economy. He also set up the Reconstruction Finance Corporation to aid businesses. These actions (especially the tarriff) had a hugely adverse effect on the economy.

In many ways, Hoover's response has been echoed by Bush and Obama. In fact, a strong argument can be made that Roosevelt's New Deal did little to help, and may have deepened, the period of the Great Depression.

Please, no politics.

[Onslaught_fei]

Please, no politics.

Please, more politics. A punk thread without politics is like a metal thread without MANOWAR.

[Soror_YZBL]

This. It was my sig when I first joined up and pissed some of the members off a lot along with my Riot Grrrl threads.

my derby captain had a shirt with that quote on it at practice tuesday, and I immediately thought of you.

[Lolicat]

Please, more politics. A punk thread without politics is like a metal thread without MANOWAR.

WOOOARGH! Loincloths and METAL!

I think I actually prefer socialist rants and vegans. Well, the rants at least.


my derby captain had a shirt with that quote on it at practice tuesday, and I immediately thought of you.

I feel touched... but also, you might need help. That said, I see things IRl and think 'gosh, ______ would love that, I'll link them... o...'

[Onslaught_fei]

Socialism is like the opposite of anarchy though...

Im so confused.

[Lolicat]

Socialism is like the opposite of anarchy though...

Im so confused.

Not really... the economic control is the opposite, but socially it's the same.

[Onslaught_fei]

Really because socialism uses laws.

[Lolicat]

Really because socialism uses laws.

Yea, but Anarchists and Socialists have always worked together. Mostly because no-one else liked them. Last stage of Communism was essentially Anarchism anyway. Highly related forms of government, but different, yes.

[Soror_YZBL]

Socialism is like the opposite of anarchy though...

Im so confused.

Absolutely not. In a pure communist society, there is no government. The people control the means and resources, and the people control themselves. Read Marx, it's awesome.

[Lolicat]

Absolutely not. In a pure communist society, there is no government. The people control the means and resources, and the people control themselves. Read Marx, it's awesome.

Outdated though, needs moar updating. Gramsci (sp?) was pretty good.

[Julio_Strikes_Back]

Absolutely not. In a pure communist society, there is no government. The people control the means and resources, and the people control themselves. Read Marx, it's awesome.

Communist Manifesto is on my reading list this summer, as is the 9/11 Commission and The Taming of the Shrew (that one isn't optional).

[Lolicat]

Communist Manifesto is on my reading list this summer, as is the 9/11 Commission and The Taming of the Shrew (that one isn't optional).

Kewl reading list. Mine is re-reading The Handmaiden's Tale and reading Simone de Beauvoir's autobiography, plus whatever else I can find...

[Julio_Strikes_Back]

Kewl reading list. Mine is re-reading The Handmaiden's Tale and reading Simone de Beauvoir's autobiography, plus whatever else I can find...

I already completed my first goal, re-read Watchmen again. I find something new or catch some more symbolism every time I read it.

[Onslaught_fei]

Absolutely not. In a pure communist society, there is no government. The people control the means and resources, and the people control themselves. Read Marx, it's awesome.

Sounds like government.

[Lolicat]

Sounds like government.

As society falls apart and people control themselves and resources, there is no regulating body, just the people doing what they want. Soror's phrasing made it sound more governmental, given, but what she was describing was the dismantling of the State, even of the dictatorship of the proletariat.

[Onslaught_fei]

Yea, but Anarchists and Socialists have always worked together. Mostly because no-one else liked them. Last stage of Communism was essentially Anarchism anyway. Highly related forms of government, but different, yes.

Wait, are you saying Anarchism is a form of government? Or do you mean Socialism and Communism are related? Anarchy has no laws. NONE.

[Lolicat]

Wait, are you saying Anarchism is a form of government? Or do you mean Socialism and Communism are related? Anarchy has no laws. NONE.

Anarchy is a political system, not a governmental form.

[Onslaught_fei]

As society falls apart and people control themselves and resources, there is no regulating body, just the people doing what they want. Soror's phrasing made it sound more governmental, given, but what she was describing was the dismantling of the State, even of the dictatorship of the proletariat.

When people do what they want, the weak and unfortunate will be taken advantage of. Both socialism and communism claim to protect the weak, poor, unfortunate, and sick by law.

[Onslaught_fei]

Anarchy is a political system, not a governmental form.

Anarchy is the absense of a political system.

[Lolicat]

When people do what they want, the weak and unfortunate will be taken advantage of. Both socialism and communism claim to protect the weak, poor, unfortunate, and sick by law.

Yea, different forms of Anarchism provide different ideas on how to protect the weak/sick/different too... I can't say I've read that much Anarchism, though.
As for it not being a system... I'd say any set of beliefs can be called a system. Perhaps 'ideology' would be a better term, though, 'system' is a bit touchy for Anarchy...

[Onslaught_fei]

Yea, different forms of Anarchism provide different ideas on how to protect the weak/sick/different too... I can't say I've read that much Anarchism, though.
As for it not being a system... I'd say any set of beliefs can be called a system. Perhaps 'ideology' would be a better term, though, 'system' is a bit touchy for Anarchy...

I think you were almost trying to describe Libertarianism early, of which I am extremely well educated and active with. Generally Libertarians are accused of being anarchists by those big government types.

[hmxhenry]

Is it ironic to use Jello Biafara lyrics to argue that things weren't better "back then"? Regardless, punk is alive and well.

"Giving up on future dreams to dwell on rosy memories / Will make sure your best days are in the past / Nostalgia for an age that never existed / Nostalgia for an age that never existed / Do you remember being the first punk in your town / Outlaw #1 for the t-shirt you had on / Now you stay at home mad at the whole scene / For refusing to freeze in 1983 / Why can't all the bands reform stick to playing their old songs / It ain't punk if it ain't just like the old days"

[Lolicat]

I think you were almost trying to describe Libertarianism early, of which I am extremely well educated and active with. Generally Libertarians are accused of being anarchists by those big government types.

Libertarianism is a fairly watered down version of Anarchism, arguably. It loses the leftist slant, can be anywhere on the political spectrum.

[onidragon]

I blame U2. Then again, I blame anything music related on U2, and everything else on the Mormons.

[Onslaught_fei]

Libertarianism is a fairly watered down version of Anarchism, arguably. It loses the leftist slant, can be anywhere on the political spectrum.

Libertarian doesnt have a left slant and neither does anarchy. Leftist propose social and economic equality through law. Anarchy does neither of these. Neither does Libertarianism.

Look at a Nolan Chart:
http://reformthelp.wdfiles.com/local--files/start/NolanChartBaitSwitch.gif
(yes its a dumb animated gif)

[Lolicat]

Libertarian doesnt have a left slant and neither does anarchy. Leftist propose social and economic equality through law. Anarchy does neither of these. Neither does Libertarianism.

Look at a Nolan Chart:
http://reformthelp.wdfiles.com/local--files/start/NolanChartBaitSwitch.gif
(yes its a dumb animated gif)

That's what I was saying about Libertarianism...

But Anarchy can be leftist or rightist, actually. There are a lot of different strands.

[Onslaught_fei]

Anarchism at its core is the polar opposite of the state. It is individualistic and not populist. There are many many many forms of anarchy, almost all of them unrealistic and cannot be applied to govern number of people beyond a handful, especially collectivism or social anarchism. Note that anarcho-communism is a libertarian strand.

[Lolicat]

Anarchism at its core is the polar opposite of the state. It is individualistic and not populist. There are many many many forms of anarchy, almost all of them unrealistic and cannot be applied to govern number of people beyond a handful, especially collectivism or social anarchism. Note that anarcho-communism is a libertarian strand.

Yea, I agree with you here. Basically, the only forms of anarchy I can see working on a large scale are backwards-looking Darwinian forms of 'survival of the fittest,' sadly.

[Onslaught_fei]

Sorry political science was a pursuit of mine in college and is a talk spot for me. I can go on for hours. My point being is that the first generation of punk was about the anarchy and somewhere along the way (whatever generation of punk it is now) it kinda switched to asking for the government's help. Im no punk historian but thats just my fly on the wall observation.

[Lolicat]

Sorry political science was a pursuit of mine in college and is a talk spot for me. I can go on for hours. My point being is that the first generation of punk was about the anarchy and somewhere along the way (whatever generation of punk it is now) it kinda switched to asking for the government's help. Im no punk historian but thats just my fly on the wall observation.

I'd be able to put up a better discussion had my brain not turned to mush from doing nothing for the past two weeks, haha, sorry.

But that's a fair way to look at punk, I guess, given that pop-punk is the most vocal strand. Crusties are still great anarchists, but they mostly keep to themselves, plaiting each other's dreads and the like.

[hmxhenry]

Just as an aside, I'm sure you both know that we try to avoid political discussions on the forums, but I appreciate that the political discussion remained civil and tied to the musical subject at hand. Sometimes you simply can't separate the political (or social, or sexual, or religious) intent from the music (and I'm not saying that people should only talk about what "sounds nice") and I'm glad that people here are still able to have a serious and rational discussion.

[Lolicat]

Just as an aside, I'm sure you both know that we try to avoid political discussions on the forums, but I appreciate that the political discussion remained civil and tied to the musical subject at hand. Sometimes you simply can't separate the political (or social, or sexual, or religious) intent from the music (and I'm not saying that people should only talk about what "sounds nice") and I'm glad that people here are still able to have a serious and rational discussion.

I'm trying to reconcile the 'serious, rational, play nice' message with the avatar... FOR LATVERIA!

[bierfaht]

punk runs the gamut of politics. if you took the lyrics to an Oi band's song, took out the city references, and added some twang, you could have an old country song.

but honestly, i don't think that politics are effecting the popularity of punk. The students at my school don't pay any mind at all to punk. The kids that would have listened to punk when i was in high school are now into the bullet for my valentine, whitechapel, screamy stuff. There are some kids who listen to green day or against me!, but they are more typical "alternative radio" kids who like those bands just as much as 3 days grace or something.

It's cyclical, and it will come back, just like ska will come back, eventually.

ps: anyone like The Gaslight Anthem?

[Soror_YZBL]

When people do what they want, the weak and unfortunate will be taken advantage of. Both socialism and communism claim to protect the weak, poor, unfortunate, and sick by law.

The problem with that statement is that communism's ultimate goal is to get rid of that stuff. From each according to his means to each according to his needs may sound like there's a bunch of moochers going around leeching off of everyone else, but if you notice the word "each" is in both parts - in a pure communism, not only is there no government, there's no weak, poor or unfortunate (there's always sick people lol). It's workers of the world, unite, not moochers. In order to play with the other kids toys, you have to bring your own toy, and you better make it a damn good one.

[Soror_YZBL]

Libertarian doesnt have a left slant and neither does anarchy. Leftist propose social and economic equality through law. Anarchy does neither of these. Neither does Libertarianism.

Look at a Nolan Chart:
http://reformthelp.wdfiles.com/local--files/start/NolanChartBaitSwitch.gif
(yes its a dumb animated gif)

Libertarianism is actually quite leftist. Not economically, of course (although one could argue that their promotion of a global free market could eventually lead to a global economy that would look strikingly familiar to communism, but that's for economic theorists to debate, not me), but a lot of libertarians are very socially liberal, and to be honest, that's all I really care about. I'm not holding my breath on the glorious revolution creating a utopia in my lifetime, but it'd be pretty awesome if the government (or as you called them earlier, the people) would stop interfering in the lives of others. Most libertarians I know are pro-choice, pro-*** marriage, anti-war, pro-pot (especially pro pot, bunch of stoners lol), pro-first amendment and in general anti-discrimination in general. I dunno what happened, but lately a lot of cons have been claiming these as "conservative" values. Which is absolute garbage, social liberalism is just that - Liberal. In fact, the only thing that makes a libertarian different than a democrat is that they hate to pay taxes. Most Libertarians, imho, need to take a latin class and understand that both "liberterian" and "liberal" come from the same root word. Liberterianism is *not* - by any stretch of the imagination - a conservative movement. The only reason they claim such is because they don't wanna be associated with a bunch of hippy communists. Kinda petty and counter-productive.

[Mystlyfe77]

Libertarianism is actually quite leftist. Not economically, of course (although one could argue that their promotion of a global free market could eventually lead to a global economy that would look strikingly familiar to communism, but that's for economic theorists to debate, not me), but a lot of libertarians are very socially liberal, and to be honest, that's all I really care about. I'm not holding my breath on the glorious revolution creating a utopia in my lifetime, but it'd be pretty awesome if the government (or as you called them earlier, the people) would stop interfering in the lives of others. Most libertarians I know are pro-choice, pro-*** marriage, anti-war, pro-pot (especially pro pot, bunch of stoners lol), pro-first amendment and in general anti-discrimination in general. I dunno what happened, but lately a lot of cons have been claiming these as "conservative" values. Which is absolute garbage, social liberalism is just that - Liberal. In fact, the only thing that makes a libertarian different than a democrat is that they hate to pay taxes. Most Libertarians, imho, need to take a latin class and understand that both "liberterian" and "liberal" come from the same root word. Liberterianism is *not* - by any stretch of the imagination - a conservative movement. The only reason they claim such is because they don't wanna be associated with a bunch of hippy communists. Kinda petty and counter-productive.

Libertarianism is actually quite centrist. While many libertarians do possess left-wing social values, many also possess right wing ones. The common denominator is that they agree they shouldn't be regulated by the federal government, but rather left up to the state (or possibly county/town) to decide. In other words, they want smaller community-driven regulation based on each community's own fundamentals. This is a sentiment shared by many right-wingers on particular issues. Some left-wingers will also jump on this bandwagon when it suits our needs, but generally tend to disagree.

Libertarians are also very very very different when it comes to government regulation in general from left-wingers. The left-wing, and the Democratic party, generally adopt a "big centralized government" model for regulation, laws, and economic policy. Libertarians are the exact ideological opposite.

[Onslaught_fei]

Most libertarians I know are pro-choice, pro-*** marriage, anti-war, pro-pot (especially pro pot, bunch of stoners lol), pro-first amendment and in general anti-discrimination in general.

Incorrect. Libertarians do not believe the government should've ever made any legal holds on marriage. Marriage is a religious or personal code and was only a recognized by law in the US later in its life for taxation and property reasons. Anything from insurance, debt, death, information rights, etc... can be accomplished with legal notes granting rights to any "partners" they want.

Anti-war is a conservative value and also a Libertarian. Conservatives have always been outspoken against war (Elected to stop Korean and Vietnam wars, in fact) but recently the Republican party, which is no longer conservative (neo-con now). Liberal usage of military sanctions and might is a big government trait.

Libertarians do not believe in victimless crimes. This includes prostitution, gambling, or drugs. They believe laws should be removed. Liberals believe laws should be put in place for these acts.

Libertarians do not believe in anti-discrimination. They do not believe in discrimination either. It is a fine line that government does not need to recogonize creed, religion, race, or what have you because everyone is equal. Leftist propose legislated and forced anti-discrimation measures.

Libertarians are also known as constitutionalists in America. They believe that the bill rights should be interpretted almost literally. This includes both first and second amendment.

[warthogdb]

To bring the discussion back to punk, it's really hard to be anti-establishment when you support a particular political candidate who wants to increase the size of the "establishment" to unprecedented gargantuan levels. This is also in direct conflict to the DIY ideals that American punk rock was built on.

The blind faith and and almost religious zeal that permeates among many of the supporters of our current administration is the kind of thing that punks should be railing against not participating in.

[Starfleet_Rambo]

Cause it sucks.

[bood-boy]

3 words

new found glory

[Sargehalo51]

For those who think that punk bands, like Green Day, are sell outs because they are popular, note Joey Ramone saying "In our position, we've always done well, but we just haven't had that hit yet that put us over the top. We always break even." In fact, they wanted to break through to mainstream and sell more records (see the documentary in which Joey complains about the negative press that the Sex Pistols generated, killing a single the Ramones had just released).

Punk is not dead, it lives on in many bands, with all levels of popularity.

[Soror_YZBL]

Incorrect. Libertarians do not believe the government should've ever made any legal holds on marriage. Marriage is a religious or personal code and was only a recognized by law in the US later in its life for taxation and property reasons. Anything from insurance, debt, death, information rights, etc... can be accomplished with legal notes granting rights to any "partners" they want.

Perhaps I should have actually stated "Anti-traditional marriage", but that's not right either, but fundamentally I'm right. They don't believe the state should be able to tell you who you could marry.


Anti-war is a conservative value and also a Libertarian. Conservatives have always been outspoken against war (Elected to stop Korean and Vietnam wars, in fact) but recently the Republican party, which is no longer conservative (neo-con now). Liberal usage of military sanctions and might is a big government trait.

If you're trying to take the word back from the neocons, then do it, and tell Dick Cheney to shut the hell up while you're at it.


Libertarians do not believe in victimless crimes. This includes prostitution, gambling, or drugs. They believe laws should be removed. Liberals believe laws should be put in place for these acts.

You're thinking of the Tipper Gore crowd, they don't count. 99% of the liberals I know are liberal because they like dope and hookers in vegas.


Libertarians do not believe in anti-discrimination. They do not believe in discrimination either. It is a fine line that government does not need to recogonize creed, religion, race, or what have you because everyone is equal. Leftist propose legislated and forced anti-discrimation measures.

Whereas rightist ones forced the discrimination ones. :) I dunno if you knew it or not, but all of those dixiecrats are now republicans.


Libertarians are also known as constitutionalists in America. They believe that the bill rights should be interpretted almost literally. This includes both first and second amendment.

Funny how James Madison, the primary author, was a member of the former democratic-republican party, which is now known as the Democratic party. :)

No offense, but your sweeping generalizations of the left are really really ignorant. I mean, you think you're all right-wing and such, and that's great if you're being a contrarian, but face it, you're a liberal, in the literal sense of the term. Freedom is what you want - freedom to do what you want and freedom from oppression. That's what liberalism is. Modern day liberalism has gotten all bleeding heart, and the *******s don't like that part, but it really breaks down to the fact that oppression is bad, and if you stop thinking about yourself for 15 minutes, you understand that oppression is bad for *everybody*.

[Soror_YZBL]

To bring the discussion back to punk, it's really hard to be anti-establishment when you support a particular political candidate who wants to increase the size of the "establishment" to unprecedented gargantuan levels. This is also in direct conflict to the DIY ideals that American punk rock was built on.

The blind faith and and almost religious zeal that permeates among many of the supporters of our current administration is the kind of thing that punks should be railing against not participating in.

It's a reaction to the 8 years of oppression we just suffered. Seriously, it was a bad time, and the punks are happy to be free of it. Give them a year or so, but honestly, the only place you'll find right wing punk is at a skinhead rally. The punks, if they choose to rebel against this so-called establishment you fear so much, they'll just go even more leftist and start showing up at Kucinich rallys. As well they should, Dennis is the MAN.

[msaunpuleilco]

In my opinion, Alternative Rock killed Punk.

[hmxhenry]

3 words

new found glory

New Found Glory, in addition to being a hugely successful (and really fun) pop punk band, does a ton of good for the punk / hardcore / metal community as a whole.

They take tons of great up and coming punk and hardcore bands on tour with them such as Crime In Stereo and Set Your Goals (I was terminally bummed that Verse broke up before their stint on the Easycore tour). They're huge fans and active participants in the NYHC scene, and they constantly name drop bands like H20 and Madball as their favorite bands. NFG works with independent hardcore labels like Bridge 9, doing releases with them to support future releases from lesser known bands. Chad even runs his own label and is responsible for releasing cds for some really cool bands, including Righteous Jams. Plus, he was in Shai Hulud, and that's awesome.

Like them or not, they do a ton of good for the punk scene. And, worst case scenario, every kid that gets into bubblegum pop punk is one step closer to listening to Crass.

[Rockbandfan23467]

Libertarianism is just anarchy for rich people.

[Onslaught_fei]

This does not need to degrade into a political argument. I dont think you know what leftist means, as politically left indicates liberal usage of government. That means using government for anything, social, economic, military, whatever. I am not even right wing or republican. Do not associate me with conservative values or politics, ever. Look at a Nolan Chart. Libertarianism is the opposite of Authoratarianism or Statism. I do not believe in liberal usage of government I believe in personal LIBERTY that is why I associate with LIBERTarianism. I also believe the government shouldnt have the power to tell anyone how to live their life or what to do as so long as it doesnt harm or interfere with the lives of others.

Thats all Im going to add. If you wanna discuss this further we can take it to privates or another forum where politics is allowed.

[ThomasWally]

Punk is not dead. Unfortunatly, neither is disco.

yeah, punk's not dead. it just kinda sucks now. no band really represents the punk ideologies anymore. the only punk bands now are bands that are playing in garages.

[afterstasis]

the only punk bands now are bands that are playing in garages.

perhaps punk is more alive now than ever then? :eek:

[DethTung]

Ever listened to NOFX? Those guys are probably the best punk band out there right now.

[ThomasWally]

perhaps punk is more alive now than ever then? :eek:

maybe... but then again punk has been dead ever since it was born. thusly, it has not died. it can't die. it won't die. that's the best part about it. so remember, a little kid that listens to Green Day or blink-182 is one step closer to listening to the Ramones or the Descendants.

[Mega-Tallica]

I don't think it died, I just think it evolved into a more mainstream sound rather than the hardcore style that we're all accustomed to.

[afterstasis]

I don't think it died, I just think it evolved into a more mainstream sound rather than the hardcore style that we're all accustomed to.

i prefer to think that it has evolved the opposite direction...
then again, when i think of modern punk bands like pissed jeans, xbxrx, and wavves come to mind before blink 182 and crew.

[warthogdb]

i prefer to think that it has evolved the opposite direction...
then again, when i think of modern punk bands like pissed jeans, xbxrx, and wavves come to mind before blink 182 and crew.

I don't think that punk evolved, I think that it was assimilated. Even Bruce Springsteen said that punk was a kick in the pants to him. It is so much a part of rock music now that there is hardly a genre that doesn't take something from the classic punk era.

Ultimately, punk is about the music not the politics. The most important message of punk is that anyone can do it. It is the ultimate democratic form of music. You can make music regardless of your limitations, you can start your own magazine, promote your own shows, and express yourself without relying on someone else to do it for you. Because those ideals still exist punk is not dead.

[Lolicat]

I don't think that punk evolved, I think that it was assimilated. Even Bruce Springsteen said that punk was a kick in the pants to him. It is so much a part of rock music now that there is hardly a genre that doesn't take something from the classic punk era.

Ultimately, punk is about the music not the politics. The most important message of punk is that anyone can do it. It is the ultimate democratic form of music. You can make music regardless of your limitations, you can start your own magazine, promote your own shows, and express yourself without relying on someone else to do it for you. Because those ideals still exist punk is not dead.

Sadly, those ideas barely exist in an actual Punk context anymore.

[afterstasis]

Ultimately, punk is about the music not the politics. The most important message of punk is that anyone can do it. It is the ultimate democratic form of music. You can make music regardless of your limitations, you can start your own magazine, promote your own shows, and express yourself without relying on someone else to do it for you. Because those ideals still exist punk is not dead.

agreed, which is possibly why all three of the bands i mentioned are oftentimes considered noise rock or experimental rock instead of punk. :)

[Eirk]

Check out The Lawrence Arms. They're from Chicago and the singer is also friends (and has a side project) with Dan Andriano from Alkaline Trio.

[Gowienczyk]

Check out The Lawrence Arms. They're from Chicago and the singer is also friends (and has a side project) with Dan Andriano from Alkaline Trio.

I can't stand that band!

[irimus]

as long as Fat Mike is alive, punk rock is not dead.

[Gowienczyk]

as long as Fat Mike is alive, punk rock is not dead.

That self-parody? Hahano.

[Mystlyfe77]

This (http://www.kohls.com/kohlsStore/landingpages/abbeydawn/juniors/PRD~490300/Abbey+Dawn+I+Love+Punk+Tee.jsp) is why punk is dead. Context (http://www.kohls.com/kohlsStore/landingpages/abbeydawn/juniors.jsp?bmForm=guided_nav_search&SubcatFolderID=2534374754549723) that makes it so much worse.

[hmxhenry]

yeah, punk's not dead. it just kinda sucks now. no band really represents the punk ideologies anymore. the only punk bands now are bands that are playing in garages.


perhaps punk is more alive now than ever then? :eek:

And there are TONS of those bands playing in garages, VFW halls and church basements every week. I love going to punk / hardcore shows now as much as I ever did.

Bands like Trash Talk, ****ed Up, Alpha & Omega, Final Fight, Dangers, Crime In Stereo, Confines, Reign Supreme, The Effort, Energy, Rival Mob, Lewd Acts, Hope Conspiracy, New Lows, ON, Pulling Teeth, Punch, Spanish Bombs, Wolf Whistle and loads more are still playing sincere DIY punk.

There's amazing bands all over, and a handful of amazing labels that you can always count on for quality releases. Punk is out there, you just have to look for it. The only person that can kill it for you is you.

[afterstasis]

Punk is out there, you just have to look for it. The only person that can kill it for you is you.

or zombies... they'll do punk in, i guarantee it.

[Soror_YZBL]

or zombies... they'll do punk in, i guarantee it.

I think Punk has plenty enough chainsaws to take care of any zombie infestation.

[afterstasis]

I think Punk has plenty enough chainsaws to take care of any zombie infestation.

all it takes is one pink-haired chick in torn fishnets to get bitten and we're all screwed.

[Quinarvy]

all it takes is one pink-haired chick in torn fishnets to get bitten and we're all screwed.

Crap. Can't let happen.

[ArmsAreLoud]

*Loads big-bottomed laser gun*

Save the angry punk chick, save the world.

[Soror_YZBL]

all it takes is one pink-haired chick in torn fishnets to get bitten and we're all screwed.

It's a zombie infestation, not a whore viru...

Oh never mind, you meant that figuratively.

[chumsicles]

Trash Talk, ****ed Up


I actually had the privilege of seeing those two bands play at a pizza place in Pomona, California a few months ago. It was absolute chaos, but in a good way. ****ed Up is one of my favorite recent bands and they put on an excellent show

[a21schizoidman]

hey, soror's back!

[PumpActionCow]

Foxboro hottubs?

[Soror_YZBL]

hey, soror's back!

LOL Back and forth. I still haven't hooked up my computer at home and work's been keeping me way too busy to troll forums. What did I miss?

[Hungryfreak]

Zombies are already destroying punk. Do you know how many crappy covers of "Astro Zombies" are out there?

[afterstasis]

Zombies are already destroying punk. Do you know how many crappy covers of "Astro Zombies" are out there?

i plead guilty...
but i was only 15 at the time and those fat metalheads were so friendly about asking me to play drums for them.

[warthogdb]

Zombies are already destroying punk. Do you know how many crappy covers of "Astro Zombies" are out there?

Where would punk rock be without crappy covers?

[Hungryfreak]

i plead guilty...
but i was only 15 at the time and those fat metalheads were so friendly about asking me to play drums for them.

:eek:

I trusted you, man...

[JBPURCELL]

It's died because people forgot what it was about.

****ing the system, rejecting the status quo, being different.

Then the music industry and record labels starting categorizing bands as punk that weren't, and the idiots in the mainstream think of that as punk.

[Soror_YZBL]

I want to be different, like everyone else I wanna be like.

[polishdog90]

What about The Hives?

Ref: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pSM_MaYOEsI&fmt=18

[NormanCoxwell]

I believe punk's dead because the everyman's became too accepting. We have become gullible. We have become puppets. We've became dependant on technology and that has blinded us to the truth. The governent's lieing to us. The IRS is stealing our money. Hell did you see the commercial about if the Universal health care bill passed it would take away patient's rights? Bull****! They're trying to kill us and we just accept that as an inevitability. The media. The man. The big high top fat cat bastards are stomping are heads into the ground and we just sit back and close our eyes.

Punk's dead because the heart and soul of the american people is dead. We need to stand and say NO. Punk can be brought back.

[Mystlyfe77]

I believe punk's dead because the everyman's became too accepting. We have become gullible. We have become puppets. We've became dependant on technology and that has blinded us to the truth. The governent's lieing to us. The IRS is stealing our money. Hell did you see the commercial about if the Universal health care bill passed it would take away patient's rights? Bull****! They're trying to kill us and we just accept that as an inevitability. The media. The man. The big high top fat cat bastards are stomping are heads into the ground and we just sit back and close our eyes.

Punk's dead because the heart and soul of the american people is dead. We need to stand and say NO. Punk can be brought back.

lol.

[NormanCoxwell]

lol.

Ya I'm pretty sure I'm politically incorrect on several accounts. Actually I'm positive I am. Its just more fun to go out and yell whatever comes to the top of your head.

[JukeBoxHero]

Punk is dead because of jerks like you asking the question. :)

[TheCrimsonSaint]

Punk is dead because it never deserved to live.

/endfanboyism

I really hate punk.

[TheClashTheClashTheClash]

Punk is dead because it never deserved to live.

/endfanboyism

I really hate punk.

You realize Punk was one of the most influential movements in music?...its felt throughout tons of genres. I'm guessing music wouldn't quite be the same if it never happened

[TheCrimsonSaint]

You realize Punk was one of the most influential movements in music?...its felt throughout tons of genres. I'm guessing music wouldn't quite be the same if it never happened

Yeah, you're probably right.:cool:


But I still hate the genre.

[TheClashTheClashTheClash]

Yeah, you're probably right.:cool:


But I still hate the genre.

Haha. I'm not gonna get mad b/c I probably don't like some of the stuff you like w/e it may be. And for the fact that everyone down here hates punk but me it seems

[TheCrimsonSaint]

Haha. I'm not gonna get mad b/c I probably don't like some of the stuff you like w/e it may be. And for the fact that everyone down here hates punk but me it seems

It just bores me. And I hate the vocal style. But I can see why people enjoy it.

[supernova1324]

It just bores me. And I hate the vocal style.

But you listen to Limpbizkit...

[TheClashTheClashTheClash]

It just bores me. And I hate the vocal style. But I can see why people enjoy it.

Haha. I have a short attention span when it comes to music (if a song is over 4 minutes, I rarely ever listen to the whole thing) so thats a reason why I like it.

[Hungryfreak]

Punk is dead because it never deserved to live.

/endfanboyism

I really hate punk.

Thrash was heavily influenced by punk you know...

I will tolerate your lifestyle, though... For now...

[MrFruitLord]

No genre will ever die.

[supernova1324]

Haha. I have a short attention span when it comes to music (if a song is over 4 minutes, I rarely ever listen to the whole thing) so thats a reason why I like it.

Then you'll love prog! /sarcasm

[JukeBoxHero]

Aww how can this be boring? :(

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uRvn0ZbC804

[TheClashTheClashTheClash]

Then you'll love prog! /sarcasm

Haha I know. I'm actually seeing Yes in concert in July....I liked them a lot when I was younger. I'll probably get bored but eh w/e, I'm seeing Rancid the next night

[Runesmith]

Aww how can this be boring? :(

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uRvn0ZbC804

Some great guitar riffing right there.

[TheCrimsonSaint]

But you listen to Limpbizkit...

Fred isn't annoying on Three Dollar Bill, Ya'll or The Unquestionable Truth, Part 1. The other albums he ranges from average to unbearable.

[a21schizoidman]

Fred isn't annoying on Three Dollar Bill, Ya'll or The Unquestionable Truth, Part 1. The other albums he ranges from average to unbearable.

in your opinion

[TheCrimsonSaint]

in your opinion

Obviously.

[Mystlyfe77]

No genre will ever die.

Tell that to Gregorian chant.

[WingsOfSteel]

Punk jumped the shark when people started having rigid standards about what was or was not "true punk."

[theholytaco]

Gogol Bordello (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sM1Ahn0Osjo) is pretty good.

[Soror_YZBL]

Tell that to Gregorian chant.

It'll be back in another 500 years.

[supernova1324]

Gogol Bordello (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sM1Ahn0Osjo) is pretty good.

I need to check out more of their material, I've only heard a couple of songs from them.

[King_Nuthin]

I need to check out more of their material, I've only heard a couple of songs from them.
Make sure if they're ever in your area to see them live. They put on one of the best shows going.

[DeadPhoenix223]

Punk is not dead. We have 4 punk bands I know of here in NC.

[JukeBoxHero]

Some great guitar riffing right there.

I agree but by far the bass takes the spotlight.

[rowtheboat]

Something to do with Chuck Norris

[Soror_YZBL]

Something to do with Chuck Norris

Chuck Norris is so badass, he killed irony.

[a21schizoidman]

Chuck Norris is so badass, he killed irony.

Chuck Norris is so badass, he sucks ass at everything :p

[WingsOfSteel]

Q: What starts with "C" and ends with "Huck Norris?"
A: Chuck Norris.

Only Chuck Norris joke I've ever laughed at, and only because of the absurdity.

[Rockbandfan23467]

Punk is such a wide term that I don't thin it will die for a few more decades.

[supernova1324]

Jason Statham > Chuck Norris

[Alright_Computer]

Jason Statham > Chuck Norris

Wrong thread?

[supernova1324]

I was just adding to the Chuck Norris convo they had going on.

[Alright_Computer]

That'll teach me for not reading the thread.

[Tono_Fyr]

Because playing the same three power chords in every song can only be done for so long before the listeners (and therefore creators) blow their own brains out.

[Hungryfreak]

Hahaha, common misconceptions/stereotypes.

[a21schizoidman]

Hahaha, common misconceptions/stereotypes.

"dangit, it's alright if you only know three chords, but at least put them in the right order!"

[Hungryfreak]

"dangit, it's alright if you only know three chords, but at least put them in the right order!"

King Of The Hill :cool:

[a21schizoidman]

King Of The Hill :cool:

yep, and making fun of the worst thing that ever happened to music

[Hungryfreak]

Worst?... Or Bbest?

[a21schizoidman]

Worst?... Or Bbest?

you know the band he was making fun of, a certain band i hate with a passion that is unmatched