Activision replies.

[Maggot_Brain]

http://www.gamedaily.com/articles/news/activision-mtv-painting-a-very-misleading-picture-over-rock-band-ps3-patch/18855/?biz=


To Music Gaming Fans: The recent announcement by MTV Games/Viacom's Harmonix division that Activision is blocking Sony from releasing a patch and their plea to enable Rock Band software to work with Guitar Hero hardware paints a very misleading picture.

In fact, Harmonix and its parent company MTV Games/Viacom recently declined Activision's offer to reach an agreement that would allow the use of Guitar Hero guitar controllers with Rock Band. We have been and remain open to discussions with Harmonix and MTV Games/Viacom about the use of our technology in Rock Band. Unfortunately for Rock Band users, in this case Harmonix and MTV Games/Viacom are unwilling to discuss an agreement with Activision.

Activision's top priority is to provide consumers with a seamless marriage of best-in-class hardware and software. We are focusing our efforts on innovating hardware and software that are designed to work together, work flawlessly and provide an enjoyable gaming experience.

Best regards,
Activision
You know what it sounds like to me? They want to get PAID! That's right, they want HMX to pay to release a patch for their own game! What a bunch of douchebags.

(Did I mention I don't even own a PS3? Yeah, this kind of corporate bull feces just gets on my last damn nerve.)

[SlowGears]

Yep sounds like a money thing to me too. :eek:

[Xzyliac]

Yeah basically it sounds like Actiblizzard said "Hey we're all sunshine and rainbows with this gig as long you guys [insert way to get screwed over here]." Obviously Harmonix/MTV didn't take the bait and now they're saying "But we gave them a chance."

[Ventura]

A lot of people are paying $170 for Rock Band bundles filled with controller hardware that's not working properly.

Pay em already; it's not like you don't have the money :)

[Xzyliac]

A lot of people are paying $170 for Rock Band bundles filled with controller hardware that's not working properly.

Pay em already; it's not like you don't have the money :)

You're really missing the point aren't you?

[Assassinbug]

Y'know, I just want to know, in plain and specific terms, what the heck is going on. I mean, I know they're corporations and PR and bla bla bla...but I bought the game and deserve to know the story behind all this bru-ha-ha. I understand that the patch exsists, has been "blocked", or possibly negated because Activision is playing hardball...but which is it...what can we do to help...and what actions can we as consumers take to try to get our game in working order (read: 4 players) by christmas?

[Bakkster]

We are focusing our efforts on innovating hardware and software that are designed to work together

That, to me, sounds like they don't really want to be inter-operable.

I hope HMX just straight up makes an offer for quid-pro-quo (not like they didn't already in the first announcement). Activision can't do anything but look like d-bags if they don't accept.

[capitalfn9]

its so funny how pr statements like this can be so transparent. they clearly want money and its ridiculous. coming from a 360 owner, i really hope they sort this out for the sake of you ps3 guys.

[MorningThief581]

Pay em already; it's not like you don't have the money :)

Money or no... it's a principle thing. There should be open standards. I don't think MTV/Harmonix should pay a dime. With no strats on the market yet, Activision should realize this is a golden opportunity for them to move a lot of hardware. As is, the only people who are really getting screwed by this are current owners of GH3 and potential owners of GH3 or its primary peripheral. Either way, Activision is only screwing their own customers. Brilliant move guys, brilliant move. :rolleyes:

[DesiredFX]

Yeah, the phrase "reach an agreement" is patently transparent.

What's amazingly blind about it is that if the shoe reaches the other foot--and with the gangbuster sales Rock Band has shown out of the gates are any indication, that won't take long--and Activision finds themselves WANTING the Strats to work with the Guitar Hero franchise, the "agreement" will suddenly have to become reciprocal.

"Sure you can patch your game. As soon as you let us patch ours. For free."

[HasmsterKiller]

in our world today, this is not uncommon. really, if hmx/ea/mtv (whoever) was made a reasonable offer, and declined it, then who really is the bad guy?

[Ventura]

You're really missing the point aren't you?

I'm just a PS3 gamer who wants the patch mate. Can't get much more to the point than that.

I didn't say it was right, though, but I can at least understand where Activision are coming from. We want to be able to use their more reliable hardware in our game; I'd be surprised if they didn't charge for the priviledge.

[capitalfn9]

in our world today, this is not uncommon. really, if hmx/ea/mtv (whoever) was made a reasonable offer, and declined it, then who really is the bad guy?

having to pay to have gh3's guitar work with rock band is absurd. it's the principle of the thing.

[DesiredFX]

Reading it a second time, I have to wonder if "We are focusing our efforts on innovating hardware and software that are designed to work together, work flawlessly and provide an enjoyable gaming experience." actually means "and we're worried that the patch will make our PS3 controller work better for Rock Band than it does for our own game."

[MorningThief581]

I'd be surprised if they didn't charge for the priviledge.

For the privilege of selling their hardware to a market which currently has no competition? :confused:

[capitalfn9]

they are just bitter that they created an inferior product.

[TreoRock_]

In fact, Harmonix and its parent company MTV Games/Viacom recently declined Activision's offer to reach an agreement that would allow the use of Guitar Hero guitar controllers with Rock Band.

WTF is this Activision???? Do you think this statement makes thing any better??? It actually makes things WORST!! You are technically asking for MONEY here so that the patch can be released. THIS IS JUST A WHOLE BUNCH OF BS!!

[CyN1caL]

they are just bitter that they created an inferior product.

They could really care less if it's inferior, it's selling just as well.

[Bakkster]

in our world today, this is not uncommon. really, if hmx/ea/mtv (whoever) was made a reasonable offer, and declined it, then who really is the bad guy?

What constitutes a reasonable offer?

Since one-way compatibility sells more units for Activision, isn't the original deal already in Activision's favor? What more do they want? How was their offer any more "reasonable"?

[Majic19]

in our world today, this is not uncommon. really, if hmx/ea/mtv (whoever) was made a reasonable offer, and declined it, then who really is the bad guy?

I posted this in another thread as well, but I'll post it here too.

Don't let this publicity stunt confuse you.

Why should Harmonix agree to pay Activision anything? Activision is the company benefiting here, They do nothing and sell more units at Harmonix's expense to play on Harmonix's game at no cost

Ask yourself one simple question; If company X created a 3rd party peripheral would they call up Harmonix and demand a cash settlement for the opportunity of allowing company X's peripheral to work with Harmonix's game? Not on your life. The opportunity to profit off of RB by company X being allowed to sell their peripheral to be used with RB is their compensation for creating the peripheral. Paying royalties does happen all the time, but it's the other way around. Company X should b paying HMX for the opportunity the sell their product to be used on RB!! Not the other way around.

Yes, we, the end users, are the one's getting hurt by all of this, but lets stay focussed on who is doing the stonewalling. But, Trying to extort money out of Harmonix for the mere privilege of allowing Activision to sell more of it's guitars is ridiculous. Even if everything in Activision statement is true, it changes nothing.

[TreoRock_]

How much money do they want??? I'm pretty sure Activision asked for an unreasonable amount of money

[Xzyliac]

I'm just a PS3 gamer who wants the patch mate. Can't get much more to the point than that.

I didn't say it was right, though, but I can at least understand where Activision are coming from. We want to be able to use their more reliable hardware in our game; I'd be surprised if they didn't charge for the priviledge.

Well considering 360 owners got it right up front I think that this could guarantee that they'd pull the same bull for that platform too. All in all it really makes no sense as they're getting paid, laid, and sittin' in the shade as it is, high atop Mt. Cashwhore.

[MF-PO'd]

I hope Microsoft didn't pay their demands previously, and that's why it works on the 360 (without Activision complaining), and now they are trying to extort that same demand from the Sony side.

[MorningThief581]

How much money do they want??? I'm pretty sure Activision asked for an unreasonable amount of money

It bears repeating... all things considered, even $.01 is unreasonable. Activision stands to gain more from the one-way interoperability than Harmonix does.

[SlowGears]

I don't think that we will ever know the truth. I wonder myself why the 360 guys got it right off the bat. What makes the PS3 so diffrent that they couldn't have done the same. Maybe it is a money issue and MS just forked over the money off the bat to avoid angry owners. Maybe it is a softwear issue maybe they can't get it to work right on the PS3 with out some super secret info to help proghram the patch. Who knows if we will ever know or the patch will ever come out.

[Majic19]

How much money do they want??? I'm pretty sure Activision asked for an unreasonable amount of money

ANY amount of money is absurd. Activision is the company that is profiting from the use of their Peripheral with HMX's game. They should be paying HMX a user fee. Activision (and we the consumers) are the company profiting from the usage, not HMX.

[MorningThief581]

I wonder myself why the 360 guys got it right off the bat. What makes the PS3 so diffrent that they couldn't have done the same.

This is all speculation, but...

I think it came down to a matter of time and hardware availability. Red Octane made the original Explorers, which obviously (actually, given Activision's recent antics, I should probably say hopefully) will continue to be supported by the GH franchise. Because GHII was available for 360, the HMX team was able to use the Explorer to ensure cross-compatibility with Rock Band. Guitar Hero III was on the market for such a short amount of time before Rock Band's launch that they were unable to do the same for PS3, with production and manufacturing deadlines and all.

[o0MeTaL0o]

Reading it a second time, I have to wonder if "We are focusing our efforts on innovating hardware and software that are designed to work together, work flawlessly and provide an enjoyable gaming experience." actually means "and we're worried that the patch will make our PS3 controller work better for Rock Band than it does for our own game."

I believe you hit the nail on the head there.
Their guitar lags like hell with their own software, but not in the XMB or any other software to work as a standard controller.
Since the Strat works flawlessly on the dongle despite whatever strum bar issues Every port is experiencing; says alot about the software development on HMX's part to make quality product vs ActiBlizz crapware.

[Xzyliac]

This is all speculation, but...

I think it came down to a matter of time and hardware availability. Red Octane made the original Explorers, which obviously (actually, given Activision's recent antics, I should probably say hopefully) will continue to be supported by the GH franchise. Because GHII was available for 360, the HMX team was able to use the Explorer to ensure cross-compatibility with Rock Band. Guitar Hero III was on the market for such a short amount of time before Rock Band's launch that they were unable to do the same for PS3, with production and manufacturing deadlines and all.

I think its simply a matter of the Strat being built off of the X-Plorer (we saw them use it as a stand-in before the Strat was finalized right?) and the PS3 being really an all new thing for them.

[AgainstOne]

I don't think that we will ever know the truth. I wonder myself why the 360 guys got it right off the bat. What makes the PS3 so diffrent that they couldn't have done the same. Maybe it is a money issue and MS just forked over the money off the bat to avoid angry owners. Maybe it is a softwear issue maybe they can't get it to work right on the PS3 with out some super secret info to help proghram the patch. Who knows if we will ever know or the patch will ever come out.

the answer is simple. harmonix created GH2 for 360, so they know exactly how the 360 guitar operates and used that knowledge to make Rock Band compatible with the 360 controller.

red octane made the new GH3 les paul controller work the same way on 360 as the GH2 xplorer does, because if they didn't everyone who bought GH2 for 360 would be pissed that their xplorers didn't work with GH3.

on the PS3, however, there is no GH2. there is no previous controller to GH3 that GH3 needs to be compatible with. and since harmonix didn't work on GH3, red octane could make the controller work however they want. they could make it function completely different than any of their previous controllers. harmonix wouldn't have knowledge of how it worked, since they had no part in that game.

i imagine harmonix assumed that it would work pretty much the same as the 360 one, but they assumed wrong. red octane intentionally changed it to make sure that it wouldn't be compatible so that harmonix would have to pay them licensing fees in order to make good on their promise that the GH3 controller would be supported.

i feel badly for the PS3 Rock Banders, but i boycotted red octane long ago, when they showed how incredibly greedy they were with the GH2 360 DLC 3-pack forced bundles and ridiculous prices. i returned my copy of GH2 360 (that i bought onlaunch morning) immediately after the DLC announcement and told CC that the guitar was faulty (even though it wasn't).

[Dissent]

Something else that is aggravating here, at least to me, is that we, the paying customers are still having to invent half of this story for ourselves. HMX has barely said word one about any of this huge issue regarding their product, it was in fact Destructoid that broke this story. Then Activision (after several straight out denials) gives us this half story about HMX being unwilling to discuss an agreement with them and refusing their offer. No information whatsoever on what the deal HMX refused was, however. If Activision were being such great guys about this you'd think they'd be very open about the details. If HMX were so completely in support of us fans then you'd think they would likewise be more forthcoming with details.

As it stands however, I'm not going to relent my pressure on Activision. For them to say that HMX is unwilling to cooperate is nonsense since HMX has done the work to create the patch and has put it out there. All Activision needs to do is get the hell out of the way.

[ravien56]

it doesnt sound like activison wants money...it seems like they might want rock band controllers to work with gh3?

[rockst01]

it doesnt sound like activison wants money...it seems like they might want rock band controllers to work with gh3?

They don't want that, that would hurt potential sales of an individual Les Paul controller.

[Rock_Starman]

I think its simply a matter of the Strat being built off of the X-Plorer (we saw them use it as a stand-in before the Strat was finalized right?) and the PS3 being really an all new thing for them.

Yea the Xplorer was used before the Strat.

I've explained the probable reasoning before,to sumerize:

MS has their own wireless tech for the 360.
PS3 uses Blue Tooth.
On the 360 both would use MS' wireless tech. The Xplorer and current Strat are also both wired.
Both PS3 guitars are wireless.
Thing is neither company used Blue Tooth with the PS3 and came up with their own tech for each guitar,both have dongles wich probably use different parts and detection methods and all that sort of thing. Had they both been wired or both used Blue Tooth then compatibilty shouldn't have been an issue. Barring RO/Activision blocking the Strat out on GH 3 wich is what they probably did do on the 360.

[DesiredFX]

it doesnt sound like activison wants money...it seems like they might want rock band controllers to work with gh3?

That wouldn't be a sticking point. HMX has repeatedly said that they're perfectly willing to work with anyone who wants to use the Strat with their game.

[filterban]

Because GHII was available for 360, the HMX team was able to use the Explorer to ensure cross-compatibility with Rock Band.

Yes. Exactly. Activision didn't have a chance to block anything because RB supported it out of the gate -- because Guitar Hero II had been out for a year.

Regardless -- Activision is still in the wrong here. An "offer"? That's ridiculous. Activision/RedOctane made a guitar. It doesn't work with Rock Band. Harmonix coded something -- a patch to THEIR GAME -- so that it works. How does Activision have any right to even pretend that they deserve cash for it working?

That's like saying that a steering wheel controller manufacturer needs money from EA because their controller works with Burnout. What a joke.

[SoulScreme]

Desired, Harmonix also said it was in the hands of Activision and Sony and that they had no control. This certainly seems to contradict that.

[Deofol]

The real ticket would be for an actual blutooth controler to be made for the ps3 that'd work with both. Now that would be hot.

[Majic19]

Desired, Harmonix also said it was in the hands of Activision and Sony and that they had no control. This certainly seems to contradict that.

I don't recall them saying the had no control. They said they had completed the patch and submitted it to Sony who had approved it when It's release had been blocked. Then in their next release they said, "The compatibility patch was submitted, approved and had been scheduled for release by Sony on Tuesday, December 4. Unfortunately, Activision objected to the compatibility patch's release. The patch remains with Sony, but we have been told that it will unfortunately not be released due to Activision's continued objection."

Nowehre does it say that they have no control. Activision has now stated that they made an "Offer" to HMX that HMX refused. Are you suggesting that HMX should subject itself to extortion for a compatibility problem that Activision caused, HMX solved and now Activision is hindering? This is ridiculous. That's like telling the victim of blackmail that it is their fault because they would have control if they would have just paid the blackmailers.

[SoulScreme]

Jeez. So, first Harmonix comes out and says they have no control over the patch and that it's between Activision and Sony. I don't know why, but that didn't sit well with me. I just didn't feel it was the whole truth. Now, Activision says that they offered to work something out with Harmonix and Harmonix refused. That doesn't sound like the whole truth. Why all of the finger pointing? Why wouldn't one just come out and lay it all out plain as day?

I think the answer is that in the true story they are both to blame and both did things wrong. Thus, they are trying to spin it in their favor and both are hiding things. Ugh, cut the PR bull**** please.

[PHiNiX]

http://www.gamedaily.com/articles/news/activision-mtv-painting-a-very-misleading-picture-over-rock-band-ps3-patch/18855/?biz=

You know what it sounds like to me? They want to get PAID! That's right, they want HMX to pay to release a patch for their own game! What a bunch of douchebags.

(Did I mention I don't even own a PS3? Yeah, this kind of corporate bull feces just gets on my last damn nerve.)

what it sounds like to me is activision is angry that harmonix was able to drop guitar hero and create a better experiance for more then one player

[ForTheSteel]

this whole damn thing is so confusing. why cant they all just work it out?

[MorningThief581]

Jeez. So, first Harmonix comes out and says they have no control over the patch and that it's between Activision and Sony. I don't know why, but that didn't sit well with me. I just didn't feel it was the whole truth. Now, Activision says that they offered to work something out with Harmonix and Harmonix refused. That doesn't sound like the whole truth. Why all of the finger pointing? Why wouldn't one just come out and lay it all out plain as day?

I think the answer is that in the true story they are both to blame and both did things wrong. Thus, they are trying to spin it in their favor and both are hiding things. Ugh, cut the PR bull**** please.

Both companies are being truthful... it's a matter of perspective. HMX says the ball's in Activision's court because they (HMX) want open standards and have developed a patch already to enable LP compatibility. Activision just has to approve the patch. Activision says the ball's in Harmonix's court because they (Avision) feel the LP is an addition to RB for which they should be adequately compensated. All Harmonix has to do is reach a satisfactory 'agreement' with them. Though I side with Harmonix, both companies are correct from their own points of view. Unfortunately, as long as they're on opposite sides of the fence, consumers lose.

[vipeness]

im just saying, someone needs to stop acting like kid. lucky im not in the middle of this, i would blast you all over the net for acting a kid. do what you must for fellow gamers, both parties. much respect, but play nice on the playground.

[DesiredFX]

Desired, Harmonix also said it was in the hands of Activision and Sony and that they had no control. This certainly seems to contradict that.

It all depends how you interpret the concept of "control."

Harmonix offered to create an outlet that would do nothing to Activision but create additional sales opportunities for their game--not just the controller, since it's currently sold only in a bundle with the GHIII game. Assuming this is about a licensing fee and Harmonix has determined for themselves that such a demand is unreasonable and doesn't represent a good-faith negotiation tactic on Activision's part, they're certainly within their rights to say the release of the patch is out of their control.

[SoulScreme]

Both companies are being truthful... it's a matter of perspective. HMX says the ball's in Activision's court because they (HMX) want open standards and have developed a patch already to enable LP compatibility. Activision just has to approve the patch. Activision says the ball's in Harmonix's court because they (Avision) feel the LP is an addition to RB for which they should be adequately compensated. All Harmonix has to do is reach a satisfactory 'agreement' with them. Though I side with Harmonix, both companies are correct from their own points of view. Unfortunately, as long as they're on opposite sides of the fence, consumers lose.

Where do they mention compensation? How do you know what they want? Maybe they want the Strat in GH3 and are having trouble. Maybe they want some non-compete agreement on artist licensing. Maybe they want Harmonix to simply disclose their LP code to them since the LP has issues inside of GH3. A few possibilities.

[SoulScreme]

It all depends how you interpret the concept of "control."

Harmonix offered to create an outlet that would do nothing to Activision but create additional sales opportunities for their game--not just the controller, since it's currently sold only in a bundle with the GHIII game. Assuming this is about a licensing fee and Harmonix has determined for themselves that such a demand is unreasonable and doesn't represent a good-faith negotiation tactic on Activision's part, they're certainly within their rights to say the release of the patch is out of their control.

Desired, you develop software. What if somebody took your program, used it in a way you specifically forbade in your EULA, and was hoping to use it to increase their profit. Sure, some money might come your way from consumers buying your thing. But, at the end of the day they are not looking to live in peace, they want to steal your customers. Hmm, since they broke the EULA you might want them to license the product.

[DesiredFX]

Where do they mention compensation? How do you know what they want? Maybe they want the Strat in GH3 and are having trouble. Maybe they want some non-compete agreement on artist licensing. Maybe they want Harmonix to simply disclose their LP code to them since the LP has issues inside of GH3. A few possibilities.

While I don't want to foster rumors, when Group A's press releases consistently talk about "open standards" and a willingness to work with other developers to ensure compatibility, and Group B's releases talk about "offers," "agreements," and "discussions," the obvious conclusion to jump to--and it is certainly a conclusion that isn't directly addressed in any of the press releases--is that Group B wants something...most likely money...in return.

[SoulScreme]

While I don't want to foster rumors, when Group A's press releases consistently talk about "open standards" and a willingness to work with other developers to ensure compatibility, and Group B's releases talk about "offers," "agreements," and "discussions," the obvious conclusion to jump to--and it is certainly a conclusion that isn't directly addressed in any of the press releases--is that Group B wants something...most likely money...in return.

Of course they want something, I gave 3 things they might want. But to assume it's money is to be naive. By asking for other things from Harmonix, they could make more money than they could get straight from HMX.

[Majic19]

Since when does the manufacturer of a 3rd party controller get paid by the developer of the original game? This notion in and of itself is ridiculous. Activision's Guitar is a 3rd party controller to RB. For them to expect any compensation flies in the face of any standard or precedent set in the gaming community or the free market for that mater.

Again, Activision profits from the release of the patch and the ability to sell their peripheral to RB users, not the other way around. Yes, RB customers benefit but HMX does not Directly profit from this. In fact it will only hurt their sales of peripherals once stand alone peripherals are made available.

[Xero314]

Would people Please stop feeding SoulScreme. He's a troll at best and an activision shill at worst. He has been a member of the board for about 2 weeks and has over 700 posts all bashing RB or supporting Activision. Don't take my say as gospel and go check it out yourselves. You will see this is an intentional troll (and my money is still on shill)

[MorningThief581]

Where do they mention compensation? How do you know what they want? Maybe they want the Strat in GH3 and are having trouble. Maybe they want some non-compete agreement on artist licensing. Maybe they want Harmonix to simply disclose their LP code to them since the LP has issues inside of GH3. A few possibilities.

The Strat compatibility thing is unlikely given Activision's attitude about everything thus far. The other two could be realistic though. I can see why Activision would ask for either of those, but it's still ridiculous. This patch stands to benefit Activision's bottom line much more than it does Harmonix's. No matter what they're asking for, they're wrong. And if they did suffer the ridiculous indignity of asking for Harmonix's LP code, I hope that gem is officially disclosed at some point... what a holy embarrassment that would be.

[MF-PO'd]

this whole damn thing is so confusing. why cant they all just work it out?

And that really is the bottom line amongst this jungle of bull****, isn't it?

Instead of creating a win-win-win, these imbeciles have managed to create a lose-lose-lose. Brilliant.

[DesiredFX]

Desired, you develop software. What if somebody took your program, used it in a way you specifically forbade in your EULA, and was hoping to use it to increase their profit. Sure, some money might come your way from consumers buying your thing. But, at the end of the day they are not looking to live in peace, they want to steal your customers. Hmm, since they broke the EULA you might want them to license the product.

It's really just describing, again, two different ways of looking at the same situation.

The first question I ask, looking at Activision, is what the purpose of that EULA is in the first place? Everything stated in that EULA could be handled with the standard boilerplate emails of "We are sorry you are having difficulty with Company X's controller. Please contact Company X about this issue."

Why make it a EULA that appears on the box and every time you boot up the game? It's an insular, proprietary approach to business in an industry that is in the process of becoming more open every day.

What's short-sighted about Activision's approach is that stopping the patch doesn't really hurt Harmonix/EA/MTV Games, because HMX knew going in that their customers would have to wait until 2008 to get additional Rock Band peripherals outside of the bundle. It hurts impulsive consumers like me who couldn't wait for Rock Band and bought GH3 in part because I understood the two products would be compatible. And with a month and a half to go until the separate Rock Band peripherals get here, it hurts Activision themselves.

What hurts HMX/EA/MTV Games is defective hardware issues.

Now, as to the question of "stealing customers," isn't that just the nature of the Capitalist system? If I don't want you "stealing" my customers, I should be expending my efforts to make sure my product kicks your product's ass and everyone knows it. Attempts to block you from using my product--especially when I profit from the way it will be used--or to ask for additional compensation (not necessarily monetary) look simultaneously greedy and desperate.

[DesiredFX]

Would people Please stop feeding SoulScreme. He's a troll at best and an activision shill at worst. He has been a member of the board for about 2 weeks and has over 700 posts all bashing RB or supporting Activision. Don't take my say as gospel and go check it out yourselves. You will see this is an intentional troll (and my money is still on shill)

Beg to disagree, Xero. I've got SoulScreme on my PSN Friends list and have played Rock Band with him online. He's even posted pictures of a Rock Band party he held in which the unused Les Paul is collecting dust in the background.

He's certainly opinionated, but his opinions are from his own perspective, not a result of someone cutting him checks.

[Majic19]

Would people Please stop feeding SoulScreme. He's a troll at best and an activision shill at worst. He has been a member of the board for about 2 weeks and has over 700 posts all bashing RB or supporting Activision. Don't take my say as gospel and go check it out yourselves. You will see this is an intentional troll (and my money is still on shill)

Great point Xero, There are far more interesting, educational and informative threads to read.

[ForTheSteel]

I cant wait to see Harmonx/EA's response to Activision's response. Maybe we will start to see some more answers and a solution.

[DesiredFX]

I cant wait to see Harmonx/EA's response to Activision's response. Maybe we will start to see some more answers and a solution.

Yeah, and maybe Santa Claus is getting ready to bring a bunch of gifts to your house in about ten days...

[SoulScreme]

Yeah, and maybe Santa Claus is getting ready to bring a bunch of gifts to your house in about ten days...

Honestly, I don't really care what either has to say, unless they say my Les Paul will work.

[Majic19]

I was looking for the quote from Huang where he said that RO had no interest in allowing the RB Strat to be compatible with GH3. I don't remember if it was on IGN or oen of the other gaming sites. But, conversely, HMX has publicly and repeatedly, stated that they are willing and able to work with anyone to make their game compatible with any peripheral (as evidenced by their creation of the patch) and they are also willing to provide any information necessary to make their peripheral compatible with any other game.

[Frederf]

To Music Gaming Fans: The recent announcement by MTV Games/Viacom's Harmonix division that Activision is blocking Sony from releasing a patch and their plea to enable Rock Band software to work with Guitar Hero hardware paints a very misleading picture.

Someone needs to slap who wrote this. It's not a sentence nor a complete thought and yet it is phrased as such. Why does it have a period? If your job is to write terse statements in corporate land, you should at least have a fumbling grasp of English.


In fact, Harmonix and its parent company MTV Games/Viacom recently declined Activision's offer to reach an agreement that would allow the use of Guitar Hero guitar controllers with Rock Band.

Harmonix, MTV Games, and Viacom all rejected Activision's offer to reach an agreement, eh? Who really rejected it? What the heck is an "offer to reach an agreement"? What does the offer consist of? What does the agreement consist of? (If it exists)

It sounds like either Activision made an obscene offer (or an offer at a chance to make an offer) or HMX's big daddy is playing party spoiler as well. Activision, on the trenches level may actually not be the villain in this case, but we might be witnessing a rather disguised big brother battle going on behind these smaller companies. I would imagine HMX's hands are easily tied by the distant cloud-high whims of parent corporations and the same with Activision.


I was looking for the quote from Huang where he said that RO had no interest in allowing the RB Strat to be compatible with GH3.

He said something about the Strat's technical problems which was all doublespeak to hide the fact that if Rock Band's guitar was allowed to work on every guitar-console game (like it SHOULD damnit) then further scrutiny would be laid upon Activision's own malicious efforts to avoid following such a shining example.

[thrdeye]

Kinda sounds like "you are guaranteed an opportunity to win 40 gajillion dollars"

[shaybo]

Harmonix, pay them. What mailing address can I use to pitch in my $10?

Could you maybe even convince them to let you charge us for the patch and pass the money to them? Seriously.

[Quinarvy]

As someone in another thread said, HMX could just release a patch that lets a SIXAXIS work as a guitar/drum in RB and includes button mapping.

Then someone could conviently just go and map the buttons and Activision could say nothing, unless of course they installed little spy cameras in the LP and send bills to anyone who mapped the buttons to work with RB.

But that is bad PR.

[DesiredFX]

Harmonix, pay them. What mailing address can I use to pitch in my $10?

Could you maybe even convince them to let you charge us for the patch and pass the money to them? Seriously.

Think about this: would you want to be the company that sets the precedent of having to pay another company for the "privilege" of using their specialized controller with your software?

If Harmonix caves to any kind of deal, here, what's to stop everyone who makes any kind of controller from demanding similar "agreements?"

[ForTheSteel]

they need to allow each other to release patches, that way the cost of licensing would cancel out.

[ATVMAN29]

well i think actiblizzard is just trying to take advantage of HMX's kinda tough situation. They know HMX can't make single periphs until 2008 so they are trying to get money out of HMX on top of the additional sales of their guitars because they know HMX really needs this patch to go through to stop the rioting ps3ers. its a shame actiblizzard is being so selfish, i mean come on, its the holidays you dick heads! Maybe HMXs pimp daddies EA and MTV should just pay the grinch (actiblizzard) what they want just so this can be over with!

[JackBNimble]

If Activision wants a deal to be worked out (which I doubt) then I think it should be like this.
1)Patch RB so the LP is compatible.
2)Patch GH3 so strat is compatible.
If Activision want money for the right to use the LP with RB that is unacceptable.They are paid when the consumer buys their product.I can't believe that SONY is letting this happen because it is effecting you and me ,the consumer and it's bad for the PS3.The LP is an OFFICAL PS3 controller (according to activision/Redoctane),so how can an offical sony product lock out any game on the PS3?
This is nothing more then a petty feud over a bad break up and we the consumers are going to pay for it.But in the end if Activision continues this course they will only hurt themselves.

BOYCOTT Activision!At least I will!

[Shockz0rz]

The one thing that keeps springing to mind for me is how little business sense this makes. Activision has NOTHING to lose by letting Harmonix release the patch. Nothing. The only conceivable result is an increase in GH3 sales by Rock Banders who need an extra guitar. And while the devs at Neversoft might feel a little insulted that people are just buying their game for the peripheral and don't give a crap about the software, there's still only profit, profit, profit there. It would be a win-win-win, as someone mentioned earlier: Activision gets increased GH3 sales, Harmonix/EA get a bit of relief from the brewing PR ^&(%storm around the high peripheral failure rate, and we, the consumers, get to play 4-player Rock Band. Instead, we've got a lose-lose-lose.

[Tarzanman]

I doubt that the sticking point was money... at least.... I doubt that Activision wanted a lump payment.

Check this thread for my theory on WHAT REALLY is happening

http://community.rockband.com/vbforum/showthread.php?p=194678#post194678

[sprinter461]

they are just bitter that they created an inferior product.

So the Les Paul is an inferior product to the Strat? Then why is everybody crying because it won't work in Rock Band on the PS3? You have the superior instrument apparently...

[chance2002iu]

I'm just a PS3 gamer who wants the patch mate. Can't get much more to the point than that.

I didn't say it was right, though, but I can at least understand where Activision are coming from. We want to be able to use their more reliable hardware in our game; I'd be surprised if they didn't charge for the priviledge.

dude, I'm a PS3 gamer who wants to rock out with a full as well. i can even understand the business aspects of Activision's move. HOWEVER, there is a principle at stake.

More importantly, there is a precedent that will be set. As much as I want an immediate solution to this situation, there is a picture bigger than our individual consumer desires to consider. As pompous and pretentious as it sounds (and maybe i'm grossly exaggerating a worst case scenerio), this could affect the future of gaming peripherals. What's to stop the racing games from racing specific wheels (read this argument on another board/thread). I for one don't want to have (again, doomsday scenerio) a controller for every game. This very well could (arguably) become a "First they came for the Jews..." situations in regards to consumer choice.

I mean no disrespect to you with my next opinion but it is the mindset that you have demonstrated with the quoted statement (I'm sorry, I didn't get through the rest of the pages to see if you clarify your point further) that helps corporations have control over their consumers. We, as consumers, have grown use to instant gratification. Which I'm normally for since I'm a hedonist, however there are times when our own desires become petty in comparison to the greater picture. It is in these times we must ask ourselves which is more important: the fulfillment of our immediate pleasure or the principal which may lead to a pleasure for all.

I suspect we both will agree that Activision's move boils down to "the bottom line" but you and I are not corporations (sorry, making a huge assumption about you, you may very well be a CEO of a Fortune 500 for all I know), we are individuals and, no matter what our lot is in life, everyone is a consumer. Somewhere along the line, Activision forgot that the consumers are who put them where they are and put the bottom line before their own humanity. We need to remind them that they are not the only ones who control the marketplace, there can be no company without customers.

Wow, it's pretty high on this soapbox and I'm sobering up. Time to get down and pass out.

[espher]

Activision is run by some pants-on-head ******s.

[drews97]

I think some of you are crazy. I enjoy this game as much as everyone but you all forget that the purpose of this game is to make money for HMX, not so that everyone can feel good and rock out. It seems like all of a sudden you're all best friends with HMX even though a few days ago everyone was crying about how much everything broke. Now you're mad that another developer wants to get paid for allowing their technology to be used for another game (at least that's was you all think is going on)? Of course they do!!! This is business. As kick ass, rocking, blah blah as this game is the simple fact is that it is the responsibility of the company that created it to ensure that any claimed support from 3rd party controllers is available before the game is shipped. You can't just assume that you can use any controller you want from any company and then get mad at that company when it isn't supported. This wasn't done.

There is no "bad guy" here. These are two competing commercial game developers both with large amounts of money behind them. You can boycott or complain all you want, but the fact of the matter is that if Activision came out with a better game tomorrow everyone would buy it anyway (so would I). Don't assume that what either of these companies are doing is for your own good. Anything that is done with respect to controllers, etc is simply in order to retain customers. HMX rightfully assumed that the people buying this game early were the ones willing to put up with the BS of imperfect controllers and incomplete licensing agreements. Once the gaming masses start to buy this I think they would find that the average Joe would be far less willing to screw around with incompatible guitars and breaking drum pedals.

[DesiredFX]

So the Les Paul is an inferior product to the Strat? Then why is everybody crying because it won't work in Rock Band on the PS3? You have the superior instrument apparently...

I don't think the "inferior product" referred to the guitar controller as much as it did to the Guitar Hero III game, particularly as implemented on the PS3.

Personally, I feel that the design of the Strat is better than the Les Paul--particularly when you weigh the time and money spent on silly options like replaceable faceplates and detachable necks--but that the Les Paul was built better (including the replaceable faceplates and detachable necks). My belief on that score has always been that MTV Games/Harmonix/EA were trying to get the game to market quickly at a price point that could be considered "within reach" of the GHIII bundle.

Unfortunately, they succumbed to the old rule of business: "Good. Fast. Cheap. Pick two." as I see it, they went for Fast and Cheap and crossed their fingers where Good was concerned.

[DesiredFX]

Now you're mad that another developer wants to get paid for allowing their technology to be used for another game (at least that's was you all think is going on)? Of course they do!!! This is business. As kick ass, rocking, blah blah as this game is the simple fact is that it is the responsibility of the company that created it to ensure that any claimed support from 3rd party controllers is available before the game is shipped.

At the risk of repeating myself, would you want to be the company responsible for setting the precedent of paying another company (whether in cash or concessions) for the right to use their controller on a common platform?

If I create a driving game, how can I possibly make a profit if I have to shell out licensing fees for every single controller I want it to be compatible with, regardless of whether the end user will use that controller?

That's what's going on, here. Neither Harmonix nor Activision has anything but a guess as to how many people will actually be using this patch, but Activision clearly feels the need to strike a deal of some sort based on Harmonix allowing every user of Rock Band on the PS3 to use the PS3 Les Paul, whether or not they actually use it.

[botnic]

Two comments. One, how valid is this statement? I have never heard of this game site before, so could someone verify this statement?
Second, if this is true, then we are basically screwed. Activision is demanding one thing, HMX another, and there doesn't look as though there will be any middle ground. We can pretty much expect there to be no patch ever.

[JackBNimble]

I think some of you are crazy. I enjoy this game as much as everyone but you all forget that the purpose of this game is to make money for HMX, not so that everyone can feel good and rock out. It seems like all of a sudden you're all best friends with HMX even though a few days ago everyone was crying about how much everything broke. Now you're mad that another developer wants to get paid for allowing their technology to be used for another game (at least that's was you all think is going on)? Of course they do!!! This is business. As kick ass, rocking, blah blah as this game is the simple fact is that it is the responsibility of the company that created it to ensure that any claimed support from 3rd party controllers is available before the game is shipped. You can't just assume that you can use any controller you want from any company and then get mad at that company when it isn't supported. This wasn't done.

There is no "bad guy" here. These are two competing commercial game developers both with large amounts of money behind them. You can boycott or complain all you want, but the fact of the matter is that if Activision came out with a better game tomorrow everyone would buy it anyway (so would I). Don't assume that what either of these companies are doing is for your own good. Anything that is done with respect to controllers, etc is simply in order to retain customers. HMX rightfully assumed that the people buying this game early were the ones willing to put up with the BS of imperfect controllers and incomplete licensing agreements. Once the gaming masses start to buy this I think they would find that the average Joe would be far less willing to screw around with incompatible guitars and breaking drum pedals.

For one Activison/Redoctane would be getting payed for the use of their periphs just for the simple fact that we the consumer have to BUY them.
I have never heard of any periph not working for any game on the console that it was made for.
All peripherals on the PS3 and 360 should be cross compatible regardless.
I don't think this has ever been an issue for sony or ms, but it sure is now.And seeing how much of an issue there is ,Sony and MS need to put in place their own STANDARDS and GUIDELINES to prevent things like this from happening.
When I bought my PS3 ,I paid for the right to use any PS3 controller with any PS3 game,did I not?Why do I now have to buy different controllers to play different games?

[Frederf]

If I was Sony, I would put a stop to this a.s.a.p. Customers don't care who's at fault when two companies are acting like little kids and step on people's toes, they just go somewhere nicer... say to Uncle Gates's house.

[Quinarvy]

Out of curiosity, did that Boom Boom Rocket game have to pay when the GH Controller got patched to work for it?

[notoriousgop89]

"Millions for defense, not one cent for tribute!"

I think that HMX should absolutely not pay Acti for compatibility. Instead, they should work to produce more guitars. Also, I don't understand why no othe 3rd company is making RB guitars as fast as they can.

[espher]

Clearly Activision was not about to let CNet one-up them in the PR ****up department.

[PHiNiX]

should have bought an xbox

[Fatal1ty_Reaper]

^^ Here they come... *sigh*

[Fortheloveofgod]

Licensing fees...

[WiseOldUnicorn]

Clearly Activision was not about to let CNet one-up them in the PR ****up department.

Heh, no kidding. What, is there some award being given out this December for "Worst Gaming PR Blunder" that we're not aware of?

[XquietusX]

i think harmonix should pay activision to use their controller but only if activision pays harmonix the same amount so they can use their guitar in guitar hero 3

end of discussion, lol

[Grey_Street]

I don't think the "inferior product" referred to the guitar controller as much as it did to the Guitar Hero III game, particularly as implemented on the PS3.

Personally, I feel that the design of the Strat is better than the Les Paul--particularly when you weigh the time and money spent on silly options like replaceable faceplates and detachable necks--but that the Les Paul was built better (including the replaceable faceplates and detachable necks). My belief on that score has always been that MTV Games/Harmonix/EA were trying to get the game to market quickly at a price point that could be considered "within reach" of the GHIII bundle.

Unfortunately, they succumbed to the old rule of business: "Good. Fast. Cheap. Pick two." as I see it, they went for Fast and Cheap and crossed their fingers where Good was concerned.

Yeah from what a friend of mine said that opened both up and used the guts of the LP in the Strat..to make it wireless...he said the electronics in the LP where much nicer and higher quality.

[Bakkster]

Yeah from what a friend of mine said that opened both up and used the guts of the LP in the Strat..to make it wireless...he said the electronics in the LP where much nicer and higher quality.

I don't think that matters at all. People want to use the guitar they want to use. I like the Strat, others like the LP. Why shouldn't we have the choice?

Way back when I saw RO's license agreement, I realized if I wanted the full experience of both games, I would need at least 3 guitars (2 LPs and a Strat), and my roommate (PS3 owner) would need 4 :eek:

So I never bought GH3. Unfortunately, I know a lot of people who did for the PS3, and are now buying Rock Band. The only thing that this patch would do is let PS3 owners buy one less Strat. I'd like to see someone prove to me that's not a lame ass reason. I'd like to see someone explain why a company that intends for you to buy new peripherals for every game deserves your money.

They didn't get mine, and unless they do an about-face they won't be gettinga any more from me, either.

[Smidget]

wowzerz. Best Video Game Soap of 2007.

Not really much else to say until all the details finally come up. Though if it is as simple as Activblizzard wanting moolah, that was a horrible press release. They needed something to come out quick after HMX/MTV released theirs but man they didn't help their cause in the eyes of consumers with that thing.

[peck]

im a ps3 owner now im glad they made this absurd statement. Now we all realize it's definately activisions fault. they are holding there lp's hostage.as far as i'm concerned they can shove there lp's up there a**'s. I'll just wait for the strat to be released.rather give my money to a company that tries to please my gaming needs not to a company that acts like a gaming terrorist.

[Bluvox]

They could really care less if it's inferior, it's selling just as well.

Not if you look at the PS3 numbers, it isn't. GH3 for the PS3 isn't even on the top 10, although it is for the PS2 and Wii.

What I don't understand is why Sony isn't standing up and telling Activision to stfu, since Activision created a 3rd party controller for the PS3 anyway. I fail to see why anyone else would need to (or want to) pay extra for the right to use a specific controller on a console they already pay the right to use controllers for. I don't think Activision has the exclusive rights to the GH controller setup on the 360, I think Microsoft requires the builder of the controller to allow other parties to program to it. Example - EA's "Boom Boom Rocket" just patched to allow guitar controllers to work in the game on XBLA a few weeks ago.

Sony should just slap Actiblunder around some and force both sides to play nice. If anything it's hurting the PS3's publicity and if folks are thinking about 360 vs PS3 this is something else they may consider while making the purchase.

[Phane7]

A lot of people are paying $170 for Rock Band bundles filled with controller hardware that's not working properly.

Pay em already; it's not like you don't have the money :)

Unlike Activision, when people who buy the $170 Rock Band bundles, they can exchange the instrument for a working one. Activision has been saying "Loose guitar neck? Tough #$*&, take it back to the store and try and exchange it." And yes, Rock Band isn't the only bundle being sold with controller hardware that's not working properly.

[SoulScreme]

Not if you look at the PS3 numbers, it isn't. GH3 for the PS3 isn't even on the top 10, although it is for the PS2 and Wii.

What I don't understand is why Sony isn't standing up and telling Activision to stfu, since Activision created a 3rd party controller for the PS3 anyway. I fail to see why anyone else would need to (or want to) pay extra for the right to use a specific controller on a console they already pay the right to use controllers for. I don't think Activision has the exclusive rights to the GH controller setup on the 360, I think Microsoft requires the builder of the controller to allow other parties to program to it. Example - EA's "Boom Boom Rocket" just patched to allow guitar controllers to work in the game on XBLA a few weeks ago.

Sony should just slap Actiblunder around some and force both sides to play nice. If anything it's hurting the PS3's publicity and if folks are thinking about 360 vs PS3 this is something else they may consider while making the purchase.

That would be a major shift in Sony's policy, which normally has great results. They have a hands-off policy. They allow developers to do their own thing and all that Sony has to do is make sure it works. Coming down and telling the company they have to do something would make developing for the PS3 lose some of its appeal. While this policy may be leading to issues with Activision and Rock Band, it has worked well plenty of other times. Unreal Tournament 3's ability to use mods, quick and easy development of the GunCon 3, and 40 player matches in Resistance are all a result of this hands-off policy that Sony takes. The ability to make your own servers, develop your own peripherals as you please, and come up with alternate methods of obtaining content are very important things. Many developers would be concerned as interfering here would be a major shift in this policy.

Sony has the right idea, it's not their problem. In reality, this is none of their business, it is between Activision and Harmonix, and if they could resolve it that would be nice.

[CJ452]

Corperate America at it's finest by putting thier own spin on things

[SoulScreme]

Unlike Activision, when people who buy the $170 Rock Band bundles, they can exchange the instrument for a working one. Activision has been saying "Loose guitar neck? Tough #$*&, take it back to the store and try and exchange it." And yes, Rock Band isn't the only bundle being sold with controller hardware that's not working properly.

There is a big difference. The failure rate on the Les Paul is really not that high. Probably something like 5-10% looking at their forums and doing some stat extrapolation. From these forums, the Rock Band failure rate seems much closer to 25-30%.

In the business 5-10% is acceptable and can be handled through exchanges. 25-30% is ridiculous and the limited in-store supply combined with much higher likelihood of getting a second set of borked instruments is why they are dealing with it themselves.

[q445187]

Guitar Hero will be irrelavant soon, thanks to Activisions "progressive" business strategy.

[Bluvox]

Sony has the right idea, it's not their problem. In reality, this is none of their business, it is between Activision and Harmonix, and if they could resolve it that would be nice.

None of those examples were peripherals, though. I agree that hands off on how to develop the game is appropriate, but bad customer experiences because of hardware disputes isn't.

If you didn't have either a PS3 or 360, and you were going to buy one because of Rock Band, which system would you be more interested in buying right now? Sony is interested in market share and revenue, those are the markers they've always been concerned with. If they are loosing market share because of a hardware manufacturer fighting with a software manufacturer on their system alone, it's a loss to Sony in the end.

I don't understand how a peripheral manufacturer can say how their product should be used by other software people, if those people want to use the peripheral. It seems like a petty squabble, but it seems that Activision has been good at petty squabbles lately...

I really think Penny Arcade got the heart and soul of Activision in this comic :

http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2007/12/05


25-30% is ridiculous and the limited in-store supply combined with much higher likelihood of getting a second set of borked instruments is why they are dealing with it themselves.

I think that number is inflated, to be honest. I'd say 15% would be accurate, although hard to say. They knew of issues in developing it, and it's a first-generation of their controller. This is Red Octanes 2nd generation 360 controller, 3rd for the PS2.. and they are still having issues that equate to maybe double digits?

I also think EA is realizing that by handling it themselves they are working on improving the brand and making sure that the boxes on the shelves get bought by new customers, not just cycled through by the same ones in a day or two. The folks getting new guitars (including myself) are getting the newer versions and are being taken care of. Also, the likelyhood of when you return a product to the store you just getting your money back instead of another product, and/or being out of luck by the retailer (I'm sorry, you opened it.. you can't return it). It's just not great ways of improving the brand.

[lucifer vandross]

http://www.gamedaily.com/articles/news/activision-mtv-painting-a-very-misleading-picture-over-rock-band-ps3-patch/18855/?biz=

You know what it sounds like to me? They want to get PAID! That's right, they want HMX to pay to release a patch for their own game! What a bunch of douchebags.

(Did I mention I don't even own a PS3? Yeah, this kind of corporate bull feces just gets on my last damn nerve.)

off topic but did you used to post on the minor threat boards?

[Bakkster]

That would be a major shift in Sony's policy, which normally has great results. They have a hands-off policy. They allow developers to do their own thing and all that Sony has to do is make sure it works. Coming down and telling the company they have to do something would make developing for the PS3 lose some of its appeal. While this policy may be leading to issues with Activision and Rock Band, it has worked well plenty of other times.

Yeah, I'm not sure what I think about their policy. Obviously it's a pretty good policy most of the time, from the examples that you mentioned.

Problem is, this seems to reflect poorly on the PS3. If someone decides to take the jump to a current-gen console because of GH3 and Rock Band, which do you think they'll choose?

More importantly, it feels like Activision is exploiting this policy. It feels like they expected Sony to just roll over and do whatever they asked them to, which seems to be exactly what happened. What happens when other developers start exploiting this laissez-faire approach not for the good of the consumer, but for the bottom line? Sony will have a problem on its hands.

I'm not saying Sony should necessarily change the policy, but they should really be paying attention. It's in their best interests too, for this to get sorted out. I'm not sure it benefits them much to let two of their biggest franchises duke it out.

[gamingeek]

Yeah well now we know the truth. Activision wanted to be paid in order to use their guitar and HMX balked. Way to screw your customers HMX.

[Alphadown99]

I was looking for the quote from Huang where he said that RO had no interest in allowing the RB Strat to be compatible with GH3. I don't remember if it was on IGN or oen of the other gaming sites. But, conversely, HMX has publicly and repeatedly, stated that they are willing and able to work with anyone to make their game compatible with any peripheral (as evidenced by their creation of the patch) and they are also willing to provide any information necessary to make their peripheral compatible with any other game.

http://www.engadget.com/2007/12/08/red-octane-vp-excuses-axe-incompatibility-blames-rock-band-issu/ (http://www.engadget.com/2007/12/08/red-octane-vp-excuses-axe-incompatibility-blames-rock-band-issu/)

Huang was being a royal Pr*ck, and basically was trying to get us to believe that they said "NO ROCK BAND!" BEFORE Rock Band was released, because of faulty hardware. They're just trying to cover up the fact that they just are being greedy.

[kleners]

I think it needs to be two fold. Harm needs to patch the RB guitar to work with the GH games and Act can release the patch for GH guitar to work with RB on PS3. no money just survival of the best.

[hmxsean]

Yeah well now we know the truth. Activision wanted to be paid in order to use their guitar and HMX balked. Way to screw your customers HMX.


Wow. You sure know a whole lot about this situation don't you? I mean there it is right? It's in a press release it must be true!

[Bluvox]

Wow. You sure know a whole lot about this situation don't you? I mean there it is right? It's in a press release it must be true!

You have to admit Sean, it's rather frustrating for these folks to not be able to make a full band yet. Most of us know y'all are doing everything you can on it, and it's pretty obvious this is a money/power grab by Activision in order to attempt to keep mind/market share.

Keep up the good fight, and hopefully some really nice 3rd party controllers (along with the stand alone Strat) will be available soon enough. I know that sites are saying Feb 8.

[Gamemakerman]

Hi there fellow Rock Band fans.

Before we begin talking about the real issue here, let me be clear about some things first. I am a major fan of Rock Band and so is my friends, i am gaming on an Xbox 360 system and have tried playing full band mode.

There has been some issues about the Playstation 3 version of Rock Band. The Playstation 3 Les Paul Guitar Controller from Guitar Hero 3, will not work on the Playstation 3 version of Rock Band. That controller however works on the Xbox 360 version (Xbox 360 Les Paul). Activision were never aiming to make it work with Rock Bad anyways, but since the Les Paul are using the very same button layout as the X-Plore Guitar that Harmonix promised whould work for Rock Band, it became supported because it used the layout.

The Playstation 3 Les Paul where never meant to be used on Rock Band and so goes for the Rock Band Stratocaster. The Playstation 3 Les Paul became unsupported because Activision followed their own standards and so did Harmonix also. We have 2 very different setups for each guitar and its the problem of it all.

Guitar Hero 3 and Rock Band support each of their standard controller setups and either company had no obligation to make the other controller work on the other game. Because of the whole Xbox 360 coincidence thing we are in the middle of a fingerpointing war with confused consumers that can't understand that the 360 Les Paul support is an offspring of the promised X-Plore guitar functionality.

It sucks that the Playstation 3 owners cant get the full band experience yet, but who is really to blame here? My take on this whole situation is that its the consumer itself who are to blame for this. People are talking about buycutting Activision, because they (the consumers) feel they have been ripped off (ripped off = Xbox 360 functionality). It seems like Activision has made Harmonix an offer that they refused and people are once more pointing fingers at Activision here.

Point is that Activision has no obligation to support Rock Band whatsoever and same goes for Harmonix. It somehow supprises me that people arent going mad in the streets over the lacking support for the Stratocaster in Guitar Hero 3, but it makes the problem even more clear. IGN said that the Les Paul where supported on the Xbox 360 and people thought the same worked for the Playstation 3, with a big letdown.

It seems wrong to let Activision hold the blame for wanting to gain something off their competitors fault. The consumers just can't deal with the fact that Activision has no buisness to do with you guys, unless they can benefit from it.

It purely called buisness and only the strongest will survive here. While Rock Band whould be well better off with the Les Paul patch, then Guitar Hero 3 won't. Unless Guitar Hero 3 gets the Stratocaster support, then Activision undoubtly will loose money on their DLC because of the whole co-op thing. Harmonix undoubtly has the most to win here and Activision knows, therefore they undoubtly want a piece of the pie.

Stop the entire "Boycut Activision" and "Petition for Les Paul Patch" stuf, because we wont see anything before Harmonix and Activision finds an agreement they think they each win on.

[hmxsean]

You have to admit Sean, it's rather frustrating for these folks to not be able to make a full band yet. Most of us know y'all are doing everything you can on it, and it's pretty obvious this is a money/power grab by Activision in order to attempt to keep mind/market share.

Keep up the good fight, and hopefully some really nice 3rd party controllers (along with the stand alone Strat) will be available soon enough. I know that sites are saying Feb 8.


Thanks. And I am working on trying to get the truth of the situation out as soon as I can. This is all very frustrating.

[ManOwaR]

Yes Activision, the company that made the patch that solves the problem is BLOCKING.

FU you F'in F'balls. Stop snorting lines and screwing PEOPLE WHO ALREADY OWN YOUR F'in GHIII game... AKA YOUR CUSTOMERS... YOUR SCREWING YOUR >>>> YOUR.... CUSTOMERS.. how stupid are you?!?!?!??!?!?!?


GAAAAAAHHH!!

[PaleSaint]

Hi there fellow Rock Band fans.

Before we begin talking about the real issue here, let me be clear about some things first. I am a major fan of Rock Band and so is my friends, i am gaming on an Xbox 360 system and have tried playing full band mode.

There has been some issues about the Playstation 3 version of Rock Band. The Playstation 3 Les Paul Guitar Controller from Guitar Hero 3, will not work on the Playstation 3 version of Rock Band. That controller however works on the Xbox 360 version (Xbox 360 Les Paul). Activision were never aiming to make it work with Rock Bad anyways, but since the Les Paul are using the very same button layout as the X-Plore Guitar that Harmonix promised whould work for Rock Band, it became supported because it used the layout.

The Playstation 3 Les Paul where never meant to be used on Rock Band and so goes for the Rock Band Stratocaster. The Playstation 3 Les Paul became unsupported because Activision followed their own standards and so did Harmonix also. We have 2 very different setups for each guitar and its the problem of it all.

Guitar Hero 3 and Rock Band support each of their standard controller setups and either company had no obligation to make the other controller work on the other game. Because of the whole Xbox 360 coincidence thing we are in the middle of a fingerpointing war with confused consumers that can't understand that the 360 Les Paul support is an offspring of the promised X-Plore guitar functionality.

It sucks that the Playstation 3 owners cant get the full band experience yet, but who is really to blame here? My take on this whole situation is that its the consumer itself who are to blame for this. People are talking about buycutting Activision, because they (the consumers) feel they have been ripped off (ripped off = Xbox 360 functionality). It seems like Activision has made Harmonix an offer that they refused and people are once more pointing fingers at Activision here.

Point is that Activision has no obligation to support Rock Band whatsoever and same goes for Harmonix. It somehow supprises me that people arent going mad in the streets over the lacking support for the Stratocaster in Guitar Hero 3, but it makes the problem even more clear. IGN said that the Les Paul where supported on the Xbox 360 and people thought the same worked for the Playstation 3, with a big letdown.

It seems wrong to let Activision hold the blame for wanting to gain something off their competitors fault. The consumers just can't deal with the fact that Activision has no buisness to do with you guys, unless they can benefit from it.

It purely called buisness and only the strongest will survive here. While Rock Band whould be well better off with the Les Paul patch, then Guitar Hero 3 won't. Unless Guitar Hero 3 gets the Stratocaster support, then Activision undoubtly will loose money on their DLC because of the whole co-op thing. Harmonix undoubtly has the most to win here and Activision knows, therefore they undoubtly want a piece of the pie.

Stop the entire "Boycut Activision" and "Petition for Les Paul Patch" stuf, because we wont see anything before Harmonix and Activision finds an agreement they think they each win on.

Activision can certainly benefit from this patch, there are thousands (including myself) that would buy the GHIII bundle to get the extra guitar. Activision would make money off this and that's why this would make sense for them to agree to release the patch.

F*** Activision.

[Bakkster]

Stop the entire "Boycut Activision" and "Petition for Les Paul Patch" stuf, because we wont see anything before Harmonix and Activision finds an agreement they think they each win on.

You can't make a patch for stupid...

[gamingeek]

Wow. You sure know a whole lot about this situation don't you? I mean there it is right? It's in a press release it must be true!



So enlighten us Sean. What is the whole truth and nothing but the truth here? Is it not true that Activision wanted you guys to pay a fee to use their controllers? Why didn't you pay it instead of releasing it w/o full compatibility? Aren't we the customer paying enough already here?

[hmxsean]

So enlighten us Sean. What is the whole truth and nothing but the truth here? Is it not true that Activision wanted you guys to pay a fee to use their controllers? Why didn't you pay it instead of releasing it w/o full compatibility? Aren't we the customer paying enough already here?

I am trying to enlighten you. But if you think for even a second that HMX doesn't have the customer's back in this you are very very sadly misinformed. If you saw how hard we are ALL working to get this patch out to people you would back down. We are working our asses off and believe me no one wants to see this place keep descending into a shout fest. I will update when I have more info.

[Bakkster]

So enlighten us Sean. What is the whole truth and nothing but the truth here? Is it not true that Activision wanted you guys to pay a fee to use their controllers? Why didn't you pay it instead of releasing it w/o full compatibility? Aren't we the customer paying enough already here?

See ^^^


Thanks. And I am working on trying to get the truth of the situation out as soon as I can.

Remember that Sean is the PR and community guy, not the "make deals with Activision guy." He needs to ask the people who made that decision before he can pass along info.


This is all very frustrating.

Indeed.

[dfjdejulio]

I don't think that we will ever know the truth. I wonder myself why the 360 guys got it right off the bat. What makes the PS3 so diffrent that they couldn't have done the same.

My understanding is, what makes the PS3 different is essentially that MSFT are a bunch of authoritarian fascists.

You can't plug a game controller into an XBox without going through a MSFT certification process. It costs money. It carries restrictions. I believe one of those restrictions is that the device has to be available to developers. That's why even the trivial little rhythm game "Boom Boom Rocket" on the XBox works with the Les Paul controller (as a guitar -- you strum for inputs, and the tilt sensor is used too, and on the leaderboards it lists that you used a guitar).

With the PS3 on the other hand, Sony permits developers much more freedom to do what they want to.

In this particular case, MSFT's fascism worked in the favor of us, the consumers. If Activision had the option of preventing the Les Paul's use, they would, but MSFT apparently has not permitted them that option.

[dfjdejulio]

So the Les Paul is an inferior product to the Strat? Then why is everybody crying because it won't work in Rock Band on the PS3? You have the superior instrument apparently...

Two reasons:

1) Bundle comes with only enough hardware to play 3 instruments. For all 4, an additional guitar is needed, and the standalone Strat is not available until late January or early February.

2) Some people already had guitars and USB mics, and were willing to wait for the drumming portion of the game, so they bought the unbundled, standalone game.

[filterban]

I am trying to enlighten you. But if you think for even a second that HMX doesn't have the customer's back in this you are very very sadly misinformed. If you saw how hard we are ALL working to get this patch out to people you would back down. We are working our asses off and believe me no one wants to see this place keep descending into a shout fest. I will update when I have more info.


hmxsean++;

Thanks, Sean. I mean it. Even updates like this one are valuable.

I understand that you guys are working hard.

It certainly doesn't seem like any of this is Harmonix's fault (apart from having individually purchaseable instruments in stores).

It looks like you guys -do- have the customer's backs in this. The only problem is both of us are being somehow screwed by Activision.

Activision is the one blocking the patch, that is clear. I don't care why or what "offer" they made. They are clearly, unequivocally wrong here.

[gamingeek]

I am trying to enlighten you. But if you think for even a second that HMX doesn't have the customer's back in this you are very very sadly misinformed. If you saw how hard we are ALL working to get this patch out to people you would back down. We are working our asses off and believe me no one wants to see this place keep descending into a shout fest. I will update when I have more info.

That's great that you guys developed a patch. But it does us absolutely no good when your company doesn't try to first deal with the legalities of it beforehand. Now it seems as though the reason that this hasn't been settled is because EA doesn't want to pay a liscening fee to GH. If that is the case then ddon't advertise that your game is copatible w/ MOST GUITAR CONTROLLERS. It is incredibly deceptive.

[dfjdejulio]

Stop the entire "Boycut Activision" and "Petition for Les Paul Patch" stuf, because we wont see anything before Harmonix and Activision finds an agreement they think they each win on.

A boycott can be a part of that though.

If consumers are boycotting one brand or the other because of this, then just ending that boycott can become part of what it means for each to win.

That's the point. You communicate with and influence corporations via financial transactions.

Even though I'm on the XBox 360, I'm boycotting Activision over this issue. My copy of GH3 is in cold storage until something changes (so I don't show up as supporting GH3 on XBL), and my "World of Warcraft" account is canceled until something changes.

(I know the connection between Blizzard and Activision is tenuous, but it's still there. Boycotting WoW, with a clear statement as to why, gives Activision's new corporate masters (Vivendi) an economic consequence, however small, for Activision's actions.)

[Bluvox]

I will update when I have more info.

Thanks Sean. I can tell, and I'm sure a lot of other folks can to, that y'all are upset by this.


You can't plug a game controller into an XBox without going through a MSFT certification process.

Isn't this the original concept of a console? You had restricted hardware that didn't change all the time so that the developers could make less expensive games, since they didn't have to test for every possibility?

Now, the wireless licensing that MS does is kinda crazy, but it's part of their process. But making sure that when a 360 customer buys a controller it will be more useful than the Sega Menacer ever was (anyone else own one of these bad boys - had one game pack you could ever use for it) is a wise move on their part. They want their consumer to feel like when they plunk down $100 for a game + controller that they aren't going to be forced to do that every time a new game comes out.

[Bakkster]

If that is the case then ddon't advertise that your game is copatible w/ MOST GUITAR CONTROLLERS.

They didn't say all, did they?

Most guitar controllers means "the guitar controllers from companies who aren't having a ***** fit about them being used on another game". Activision is clearly in the "***** fit" section.

[DesiredFX]

That's great that you guys developed a patch. But it does us absolutely no good when your company doesn't try to first deal with the legalities of it beforehand. Now it seems as though the reason that this hasn't been settled is because EA doesn't want to pay a liscening fee to GH. If that is the case then ddon't advertise that your game is copatible w/ MOST GUITAR CONTROLLERS. It is incredibly deceptive.

If Activision had a legal leg to stand on, they would have filed for an injunction before attempting to negotiate. It would have given them the upper hand.

What amazes me is that you're so incredibly blind to the idea that paying Activision so that Activision will allow Harmonix to patch its own software is an incredibly stupid move for any developer that will eventually bite each and every one of us squarely on the ass.

[DesiredFX]

They didn't say all, did they?

Most guitar controllers means "the guitar controllers from companies who aren't having a ***** fit about them being used on another game". Activision is clearly in the "***** fit" section.

They didn't even say "guitar controllers."

They said "most music game controllers."

[gamingeek]

They didn't say all, did they?

Most guitar controllers means "the guitar controllers from companies who aren't having a ***** fit about them being used on another game". Activision is clearly in the "***** fit" section.

Yeah except for one small detail.

THERE IS ONLY ONE OTHE GUITAR CONTROLLER AVAILABLE FOR THE PS3!!!

[Bakkster]

They didn't even say "guitar controllers."

They said "most music game controllers."

I'm just simplifying.

Guitar controllers are a subset of rhythm game controllers.

[gamingeek]

If Activision had a legal leg to stand on, they would have filed for an injunction before attempting to negotiate. It would have given them the upper hand.

What amazes me is that you're so incredibly blind to the idea that paying Activision so that Activision will allow Harmonix to patch its own software is an incredibly stupid move for any developer that will eventually bite each and every one of us squarely on the ass.

What amazes me is a company as big as EA didn't think about these issues ahead of time. You know before they released and sold the game.

[jgardz]

this is such a frustrating experience for me. Living in Canada, owning a PS3, and having a defective strat have all worked against me as we all know....but now this takes the cake. As a long time gamer (i'm north of 30), i have NEVER seen such a SNAFU before surrounding a game. I'm not going to place blame, whine, etc as plenty of others have handled that role......but my whole experience with this game (which I totally enjoy playing), has been tainted, and I'm really starting to question whether my consumer dollars would be better spent elsewhere.....it's sad, as I know that I have GH3 sitting under my Christmas tree, just waiting.......I'm not questioning Sean's claim that HMX is working hard and "has our back", however I don't think that HMX has given us much reason to place much trust in them yet.....there's a saying about once bitten, twice shy.... or "fool me once, shame on me, fool me twice, shame on you"....well I think that we've been bitten and fooled enough times that everyone here has a legitimate reason to question our continuing support for either game....and one last thing....Sean, you sarcastically stated that "it's in a press release so it must be true"....HMX are the company who taught us NOT to trust press releases....

[glide]

Hi there fellow Rock Band fans.

Before we begin talking about the real issue here, let me be clear about some things first. I am a major fan of Rock Band and so is my friends, i am gaming on an Xbox 360 system and have tried playing full band mode.

There has been some issues about the Playstation 3 version of Rock Band. The Playstation 3 Les Paul Guitar Controller from Guitar Hero 3, will not work on the Playstation 3 version of Rock Band. That controller however works on the Xbox 360 version (Xbox 360 Les Paul). Activision were never aiming to make it work with Rock Bad anyways, but since the Les Paul are using the very same button layout as the X-Plore Guitar that Harmonix promised whould work for Rock Band, it became supported because it used the layout.

The Playstation 3 Les Paul where never meant to be used on Rock Band and so goes for the Rock Band Stratocaster. The Playstation 3 Les Paul became unsupported because Activision followed their own standards and so did Harmonix also. We have 2 very different setups for each guitar and its the problem of it all.

Guitar Hero 3 and Rock Band support each of their standard controller setups and either company had no obligation to make the other controller work on the other game. Because of the whole Xbox 360 coincidence thing we are in the middle of a fingerpointing war with confused consumers that can't understand that the 360 Les Paul support is an offspring of the promised X-Plore guitar functionality.

It sucks that the Playstation 3 owners cant get the full band experience yet, but who is really to blame here? My take on this whole situation is that its the consumer itself who are to blame for this. People are talking about buycutting Activision, because they (the consumers) feel they have been ripped off (ripped off = Xbox 360 functionality). It seems like Activision has made Harmonix an offer that they refused and people are once more pointing fingers at Activision here.

Point is that Activision has no obligation to support Rock Band whatsoever and same goes for Harmonix. It somehow supprises me that people arent going mad in the streets over the lacking support for the Stratocaster in Guitar Hero 3, but it makes the problem even more clear. IGN said that the Les Paul where supported on the Xbox 360 and people thought the same worked for the Playstation 3, with a big letdown.

It seems wrong to let Activision hold the blame for wanting to gain something off their competitors fault. The consumers just can't deal with the fact that Activision has no buisness to do with you guys, unless they can benefit from it.

It purely called buisness and only the strongest will survive here. While Rock Band whould be well better off with the Les Paul patch, then Guitar Hero 3 won't. Unless Guitar Hero 3 gets the Stratocaster support, then Activision undoubtly will loose money on their DLC because of the whole co-op thing. Harmonix undoubtly has the most to win here and Activision knows, therefore they undoubtly want a piece of the pie.

Stop the entire "Boycut Activision" and "Petition for Les Paul Patch" stuf, because we wont see anything before Harmonix and Activision finds an agreement they think they each win on.

Spell check.

[espher]

Wow. You sure know a whole lot about this situation don't you? I mean there it is right? It's in a press release it must be true!

Don't mind him Sean, he's been spending a little too much time on the beach and is a little sandy down there. :)

Oh, and seems to be oblivious to the sort of precedent this would set.

[TheTogfather]

Hey Sean, other HMX folks. Just wanted to voice my support for you, figured this was a good place to do it. I realize that it's easy for me to say you guys are doing the right thing by not caving, as I'm a 360 owner, but I have faith that you guys know what you're doing and are working your tails off to do right by ALL your customers, regardless of console. Don't let the new publishing power in gaming bully you around. Hopefully you can wrap this whole thing up and get back to doing what you do best...delivering us more awesome gaming experiences...such as Tool DLC. ;)

[Bakkster]

but my whole experience with this game (which I totally enjoy playing), has been tainted, and I'm really starting to question whether my consumer dollars would be better spent elsewhere.....it's sad, as I know that I have GH3 sitting under my Christmas tree, just waiting.......

It might be a conspiracy theory, and I might need to put on my tin-foil hat, but it seems to me that this is EXACTLY what Activision wants.

I already skipped buying GH3 because the Strat wouldn't work with it, and I probably would have enjoyed it. I don't want to keep having to make a decision to only buy one or the other, but it seems Activision wants to force people to do this.


Sean, you sarcastically stated that "it's in a press release so it must be true"....HMX are the company who taught us NOT to trust press releases....

Examples, please?

[-silencer-]

Money or no... it's a principle thing. There should be open standards. I don't think MTV/Harmonix should pay a dime. With no strats on the market yet, Activision should realize this is a golden opportunity for them to move a lot of hardware. As is, the only people who are really getting screwed by this are current owners of GH3 and potential owners of GH3 or its primary peripheral. Either way, Activision is only screwing their own customers. Brilliant move guys, brilliant move. :rolleyes:

Exactly. I own Rock Band and would like a 2nd guitar. I own GH1 and 2 for PS2, and WOULD buy GH3 if the guitar would work with RB. However, Activision is the one hurting from my decision. If it were open standards, I'd buy both games. Now I'm just going to wait for Harmonix to make the guitar available separately and buy that. No need for GH3 without the guitar since there are already similar tracks and so much DLC coming out for RB.

[DesiredFX]

What amazes me is a company as big as EA didn't think about these issues ahead of time. You know before they released and sold the game.

You don't know that they didn't any more than I know that they did.

What it comes down to is this: you made what amounts to an impulse buy without doing any research to make sure you knew what you were getting, and now you want Harmonix/EA to compensate you for your mistake.

[gamingeek]

Don't mind him Sean, he's been spending a little too much time on the beach and is a little sandy down there. :)

Oh, and seems to be oblivious to the sort of precedent this would set.

I simply don't believe that PS3 owners should have to suffer while HMX/EA try to make some kind of a principled stand. I've said it before and I'll say it again-- THIS SHOULD HAVE BEEN CONSIDERED BEFORE RELEASE--- NOT AS AN AFTERTHOUGHT!!!

[espher]

I simply don't believe that PS3 owners should have to suffer while HMX/EA try to make some kind of a principled stand. I've said it before and I'll say it again-- THIS SHOULD HAVE BEEN CONSIDERED BEFORE RELEASE--- NOT AS AN AFTERTHOUGHT!!!

What's to say it wasn't?

GH3 went live shortly before Rock Band went gold and was pressed to disc.

Perhaps they didn't expect a cockblock of epic proportions, but hey, hindsight is 20/20, and giving Activision money would set a bad trend. If you can't see the latter point, well, it actually wouldn't surprise me given your post history.

*shrug*

[bacchus]

gamingeek, It WAS considered before release. However, Activision is taking a hard-line stance and continues to do so. Harmonix tried to make it work, but Activision intentionally made their controller proprietary so that it wouldn't.

In a nutshell, Activision wants proprietary controllers. They also want to be paid large sums of cash to allow their controller to work in third party games. Harmonix wants a controller standard and for controllers to work in any guitar game. Regardless of manufacturer

Harmonix is trying to do the right thing and Activision has fought them every step of the way.

It's obvious that harmonix has tried to resolve this for months, but there is a fundamental disconnect on how each company thinks the market should operate. It definitely sucks that this had to go public, but that's where are. Only continued consumer pressure on Activision will have any effect. They have to experience the pain of lost sales before they'll listen to reason.

[Bluvox]

I simply don't believe that PS3 owners should have to suffer while HMX/EA try to make some kind of a principled stand. I've said it before and I'll say it again-- THIS SHOULD HAVE BEEN CONSIDERED BEFORE RELEASE--- NOT AS AN AFTERTHOUGHT!!!

So PS3 owners should suffer while Activision makes some kind of stand? I've said it several times already.. but I really think that Sony needs to make more of a statement to the two companies in question and be the mitigators of the squabble. Sony has more to loose than anyone else in this conflict it seems.

[terRize]

I simply don't believe that PS3 owners should have to suffer while HMX/EA try to make some kind of a principled stand. I've said it before and I'll say it again-- THIS SHOULD HAVE BEEN CONSIDERED BEFORE RELEASE--- NOT AS AN AFTERTHOUGHT!!!

Cry me a river already. If this is what you consider suffering then consider yourself lucky. Does it suck that it's turned out this way? Sure, I think we can agree on that. But get over it.

Pertaining to the principled stand, as a PS3 owner, I hope they do make a stand as I do not want this to become a common occurrence in video games.

[miketoast]

Not for nothing but the newest GH kinda sucks anyway and now these ****ty business practices from Activision all but ensure I will never buy GH IV, V VI, XL, Rocks The 00's or whatever, ever again.....

I can't get over how freaking stupid they are though, they have a golden opportunity as the only other guitar controller on the market to move thousands and thousands of units that would have previously went (and now will go) unsold and they decide to turn their backs??? Smart move turning down profit like that, I'm sure the shareholders will be happy with that move....

[GloriosoZoso]

You don't know that they didn't any more than I know that they did.

What it comes down to is this: you made what amounts to an impulse buy without doing any research to make sure you knew what you were getting, and now you want Harmonix/EA to compensate you for your mistake.

I feel bad for those who can't enjoy the 4-player aspect of this amazing game.

Yet it's sad that those who failed to research the evidence of an instrument shortage and lack of guitar compatibility PRIOR to purchasing continue to blame Harmonix.

If Harmonix warned everyone about a shortage (which it did) then it is the consumer's fault for not paying attention.

[logicalnoise]

I simply don't believe that PS3 owners should have to suffer while HMX/EA try to make some kind of a principled stand. I've said it before and I'll say it again-- THIS SHOULD HAVE BEEN CONSIDERED BEFORE RELEASE--- NOT AS AN AFTERTHOUGHT!!!

Why should they pay activsion for nothing? they mad ethe patch themselves without input from activision. Does logitech get paid for every gamer who uses the GT2 steering wheel on Need for speed when it was designed to primarily work with Gran tursimo? What about the precadent set but Red Octane themselves when they and TAC dropped charges against each otehr regarding guitar hero patents. RO is just fine with TAC making guitars that work with the ps2 GH games but all of a sudden this is the issue they want to cash in on?

[Grey_Street]

How is this topic not locked yet? There are tons of assumptions and "misinformation" and it's just arguing back and forth and flaming...

I've seen topics locked for alot less :rolleyes:

[gamingeek]

Why should they pay activsion for nothing? they mad ethe patch themselves without input from activision. Does logitech get paid for every gamer who uses the GT2 steering wheel on Need for speed when it was designed to primarily work with Gran tursimo? What about the precadent set but Red Octane themselves when they and TAC dropped charges against each otehr regarding guitar hero patents. RO is just fine with TAC making guitars that work with the ps2 GH games but all of a sudden this is the issue they want to cash in on?

Look-- I am all for advocating an open standard for these musical controllers. The point is that Activision is not required to allow HMX to use their guitars or to support their product in anyway. While I agree that it is bad for the consumer and for Activision in the long run, if they choose to charge for use of their guitars on RB then that's what they'll do. If EA/HMX doesn't want to pay them fine. But then don't advertise and insinuate that the game works with MOST MUSIC CONTROLLERS. It's simply NOT TRUE.

[Bakkster]

How is this topic not locked yet? There are tons of assumptions and "misinformation" and it's just arguing back and forth and flaming...

I've seen topics locked for alot less :rolleyes:

But no misinformation about something that HMX knows to be incorrect: hence why there were locks about the patch before we knew what was going on.

Actually, very little flaming. The typical "You're stupid" and nothing more. Once people start telling each other off with profanity, expect the banhammer.

Also, the majority of locked topics are for dupes. The mods have started merging the dupes in, so don't expect the lock until somebody tells you to "**** a **** in the *** with a ****" or similar.

[MorningThief581]

The mods have started merging the dupes in, so don't expect the lock until somebody tells you to "**** a **** in the *** with a ****" or similar.

I'm gonna wonder what those blanks are for hours. It's like madlibs.

[Magnet]

I am trying to enlighten you. But if you think for even a second that HMX doesn't have the customer's back in this you are very very sadly misinformed. If you saw how hard we are ALL working to get this patch out to people you would back down. We are working our asses off and believe me no one wants to see this place keep descending into a shout fest. I will update when I have more info.

Anyone else find this post rather hopeful actually? Even Sean's tone seems more emotional than usual in this topic, which is at least a good sign that Harmonix does indeed care a great deal about this patch if anyone was beginning to think to the contrary.

People are now starting to say that Activision wants something, Harmonix won't give them anything, and this will remain at a standstill forever - so the PS3 patch will never come out. Since we know the PS3 patch was completed and submitted to Sony over a week ago, the very fact that Harmonix says that they are (present-tense) working to get the patch out to PS3 owners establishes that they're not just going to give up immediately on the issue. I know these press releases are frequently not all that worthwhile, but Activision stated in theirs that, "We have been and remain open to discussions with Harmonix and MTV Games/Viacom about the use of our technology in Rock Band. Unfortunately for Rock Band users, in this case Harmonix and MTV Games/Viacom are unwilling to discuss an agreement with Activision." If Harmonix is just trying to skip the Activision nonsense and get Sony to put this patch out anyway, then maybe there's hope in that possibility. If Sony is forcing the two parties to kiss and make up before a patch is released, it sounds like neither side is completely opposed to at least discussions on the matter. Activision claimed that Harmonix/MTV were unwilling to discuss an agreement with Activision, but that certainly doesn't indicate that other discussions aren't currently taking place.

I'm still going to be patient on the whole thing and hope that something more solid eventually comes to fruition. Most of us PS3 owners are very frustrated with this ordeal. Activision knows its consumers are frustrated. Harmonix knows its consumers are frustrated. It's certainly not out of the question that this patch will make its way to consumers one way or another. Just give the parties some more time - and don't be afraid to take posts from Harmonix employees (which are frequently much more meaningful than any press statements could be) like Sean seriously when they say that they're working their asses off to get this patch out to us. While it's not entirely clear how they're working hard at the moment behind the scenes, the fact that they are represents that nothing has come to a standstill yet, so PS3 owners can still remain hopeful for now. It's too early and we don't have enough information to be pointing fingers and yelling at these companies. At least wait until more information is available and a party says that the PS3 patch definitely is/isn't coming out before trying to assign blame.

I urge everyone else to be patient as well for the time being and try to get your mind on other things until we get more information on the patch. Shouting right now at people might make you feel better, but it's completely in vain.

[Bluvox]

But then don't advertise and insinuate that the game works with MOST MUSIC CONTROLLERS. It's simply NOT TRUE.

Let's count. Music controllers

Microphone - check
Les Paul - negative
Stratocaster - check
Drums - check

That's 3 out of 4 music controllers. 75% is greater than 50%, so "most" is accurate. Music includes stuff beyond plastic guitars.

[allegate]

Where do they mention compensation? How do you know what they want? Maybe they want the Strat in GH3 and are having trouble. Maybe they want some non-compete agreement on artist licensing. Maybe they want Harmonix to simply disclose their LP code to them since the LP has issues inside of GH3. A few possibilities.

see, if the company needs help to get their own controller to work there are bigger issues they need to take care of, I think.

[toad3000]

Don't mind him Sean, he's been spending a little too much time on the beach and is a little sandy down there. :)


Ha! that's brilliant

Sean, I too wanted to say thank you to the entire Harmonix team for your hard work and tolerance for all the flaming and trolling going on on this board. Thanks for dealing with us, keeping us updated, for getting the patch done in record time, and for continuing to fight to bring the patch to the consumers. The actual humans on this board appreciate it. :p

[gamingeek]

Ha! that's brilliant

Sean, I too wanted to say thank you to the entire Harmonix team for your hard work and tolerance for all the flaming and trolling going on on this board. Thanks for dealing with us, keeping us updated, for getting the patch done in record time, and for continuing to fight to bring the patch to the consumers. The actual humans on this board appreciate it. :p

It appears flaming is tolerated as long as it backs HMX's line.

[Xero314]

I simply don't believe that PS3 owners should have to suffer while HMX/EA try to make some kind of a principled stand. I've said it before and I'll say it again-- THIS SHOULD HAVE BEEN CONSIDERED BEFORE RELEASE--- NOT AS AN AFTERTHOUGHT!!!

How do you know this was not considered before release? How do you know that Harmonix was capable of considering this before release. It has been pointed out many times that RB was in approval process long before GH3 was release and PS3 GH3 guitars were available for testing.

I agree that the PS3 box should probably not say "Compatible With Most Music Game Controllers" and that Harmonix should have put out a press release right after GH3 was released clarifying that GH3 guitar would not work with Rockband on the PS3. But barring all that it seems that Harmonix has attempted to do what is right in this case. The patch should be released and the consumers should decided which guitar they would like to use.

I'm not ever plugging a GH3 guitar into Rockband because it's obvious that Activision is run by a bunch of Douche Bags that don't deserver my well earn dollars.

[Thr3e2wenty8]

Here's why the 360 works and the ps3 doesn't. Sony decided to create this ultimate Nex Gen machine which uses many of thier own IPs and next gen technology. You know, Blu-Ray and bluetooth. So when they did that they limited and or forced other companies to either pay up to use those means and meanwhile the 360 kept things easy and alowing companies to continue to use the easier more common types of technology for thier controllers and such.

RB and GH3 came out for the PS3 with dongles which allowed both companies to bridge the gap without having to redesign the wheel so to speak.
What I don't appreciate is that the 360 is still allowed to use the GH3 contollers without having to pay or being threatened to have it removed the game was put together by the same guys for the 360 version and if a kings ransom was paid for the 360 to continue the use of this controller, wouldn't they have paid the price and know what the going rate was? I find it a little interesting that the RB distributor is EA (who has closer ties to the 360 seeing as they've been switching figureheads over the last year) who seems to be having issues with the PS3 versions of games. hmmmmm, could this be why theres been no rush to fix issues on the PS3?

[Bluvox]

Here's why the 360 works and the ps3 doesn't. Sony decided to create this ultimate Nex Gen machine which uses many of thier own IPs and next gen technology. You know, Blu-Ray and bluetooth. So when they did that they limited and or forced other companies to either pay up to use those means and meanwhile the 360 kept things easy and allowing companies to continue to use the easier more common types of technology for their controllers and such.


If you look, the 360 version of the guitar is wired, because Microsoft has more proprietary wireless controls on the system than Sony. Sony is much more "sandbox" in their approach to consoles than Microsoft has been, and there in lies the problem. With the 360 you have to make a controller that has certain standards that can be used by other companies (as I understand it). So HMX paid the same "ransom" as Activision did, to Microsoft, to have their controllers work on the 360. Since there is no "certification" of the same calibur on the PS3, the current consensus of board trolls is that Activision is attempting to keep Harmonix from using the IP of how their controller works with the PS3.

No need for conspiracy theories.. just business practices.

[gamingeek]

Here's why the 360 works and the ps3 doesn't. Sony decided to create this ultimate Nex Gen machine which uses many of thier own IPs and next gen technology. You know, Blu-Ray and bluetooth. So when they did that they limited and or forced other companies to either pay up to use those means and meanwhile the 360 kept things easy and alowing companies to continue to use the easier more common types of technology for thier controllers and such.

RB and GH3 came out for the PS3 with dongles which allowed both companies to bridge the gap without having to redesign the wheel so to speak.
What I don't appreciate is that the 360 is still allowed to use the GH3 contollers without having to pay or being threatened to have it removed the game was put together by the same guys for the 360 version and if a kings ransom was paid for the 360 to continue the use of this controller, wouldn't they have paid the price and know what the going rate was? I find it a little interesting that the RB distributor is EA (who has closer ties to the 360 seeing as they've been switching figureheads over the last year) who seems to be having issues with the PS3 versions of games. hmmmmm, could this be why theres been no rush to fix issues on the PS3?


I can't believe that you would accuse EA of intentionally goobering a PS3 release. It's not like they ever have done that before. Have you no shame sir?

--cough cough--- Madden

[Bakkster]

I find it a little interesting that the RB distributor is EA (who has closer ties to the 360 seeing as they've been switching figureheads over the last year) who seems to be having issues with the PS3 versions of games. hmmmmm, could this be why theres been no rush to fix issues on the PS3?

As distributor, EA has no say on what happens with patches, etc. They just man the warehouses.

[espher]

As distributor, EA has no say on what happens with patches, etc. They just man the warehouses.

Whoa buddy, there's no place for logic here.

[Xero314]

Let's count. Music controllers

Microphone - check
Les Paul - negative
Stratocaster - check
Drums - check

That's 3 out of 4 music controllers. 75% is greater than 50%, so "most" is accurate. Music includes stuff beyond plastic guitars.

Oh this is a fun game so lets count all music controllers and there compatibility with the PS3 version of RockBand.

Rb Strat - Check
Les Paul - Negative
SG w/Adapter - Negative
Kramer w/Adapter - Negative
Nyko Frontman w/Adapter - Negative
Simpsons Otto Axe w/Adapter - Negative
Double range Freedom w/Adapter - Negative
Rock Guitar w/Adapter - Negative
Flying V w/Adapter - Negative
Shredder w/Adapter -Negative
Numerous Guitar Freeks Controllers w/Adapter - Negative
Rb Drum kit - Check
DDR Dance pad - Negative
DDR Metal Dance Pad - Negative
DDR Energy Dance Pad - Negative

...

I could do this all day, but as you can see the PS3 version of RB is compatible with only a very small portion of available "Music Game Controllers" unless you count being able to navigate the menus as "Compatible."

Also note, that I don't want RB to work with the Les Paul, I think Activision deserves to be screwed, but I also think Harmonix needs to change the wording on the PS3 game boxes.

[Bakkster]

Whoa buddy, there's no place for logic here.

Oh, sorry.

ZOMG, ACTIVISION DID TEH RITE THING! Teh Strat is teh Sux and ne1 who likes it shuld give up gamez 4evar! I'm glad i can't maek mah own decishuns, and Rock Band is a copy of Guitar Heero!

Is that better? ;)

[Thr3e2wenty8]

If you look, the 360 version of the guitar is wired, because Microsoft has more proprietary wireless controls on the system than Sony. Sony is much more "sandbox" in their approach to consoles than Microsoft has been, and there in lies the problem. With the 360 you have to make a controller that has certain standards that can be used by other companies (as I understand it). So HMX paid the same "ransom" as Activision did, to Microsoft, to have their controllers work on the 360. Since there is no "certification" of the same calibur on the PS3, the current consensus of board trolls is that Activision is attempting to keep Harmonix from using the IP of how their controller works with the PS3.

No need for conspiracy theories.. just business practices.
So, then if PS3 is sandbox isn't that like having tight restrictions (just different than 360)?
I'd just figure if someone were going to make a game for 2 different consoles they'd say...test it on both consoles. Check the making of videos in the game, its all 360 (wired) stuff.

Harmonix brough this on themselves as well as everyone else screwing up on top of it.
These guys are professionals? Sure?

[DesiredFX]

Oh this is a fun game so lets count all music controllers and there compatibility with the PS3 version of RockBand.

...
Well, I can see this conversation is on the verge of taking a turn worthy of the Algonquin Round Table...

[gamingeek]

So, then if PS3 is sandbox isn't that like having tight restrictions (just different than 360)?
I'd just figure if someone were going to make a game for 2 different consoles they'd say...test it on both consoles. Check the making of videos in the game, its all 360 (wired) stuff.

Harmonix brough this on themselves as well as everyone else screwing up on top of it.
These guys are professionals? Sure?

Well put. They are ultimately responsible for this whole debaucle.

[toad3000]

Oh this is a fun game so lets count all music controllers and there compatibility with the PS3 version of RockBand.

Rb Strat - Check
Les Paul - Negative
SG w/Adapter - Negative
Kramer w/Adapter - Negative
Nyko Frontman w/Adapter - Negative
Simpsons Otto Axe w/Adapter - Negative
Double range Freedom w/Adapter - Negative
Rock Guitar w/Adapter - Negative
Flying V w/Adapter - Negative
Shredder w/Adapter -Negative
Numerous Guitar Freeks Controllers w/Adapter - Negative
Rb Drum kit - Check
DDR Dance pad - Negative
DDR Metal Dance Pad - Negative
DDR Energy Dance Pad - Negative

...


OK, let's just get the dance pads out of there, as they're clearly not meant to be used with a "music game". They're rhythm dance game peripherals. Also knock off ANYTHING with an adapter, because...the adapters are junk. Make an adapter that allows the controller to be recognized by a PS3 game (or recognized properly by a PS2 game) and we'll talk.
Hell, while we're at it, you missed the X-Plorer. ;)

[logicalnoise]

Oh this is a fun game so lets count all music controllers and there compatibility with the PS3 version of RockBand.

Rb Strat - Check
Les Paul - Negative
SG w/Adapter - Negative
Kramer w/Adapter - Negative
Nyko Frontman w/Adapter - Negative
Simpsons Otto Axe w/Adapter - Negative
Double range Freedom w/Adapter - Negative
Rock Guitar w/Adapter - Negative
Flying V w/Adapter - Negative
Shredder w/Adapter -Negative
Numerous Guitar Freeks Controllers w/Adapter - Negative
Rb Drum kit - Check
DDR Dance pad - Negative
DDR Metal Dance Pad - Negative
DDR Energy Dance Pad - Negative

...

I could do this all day, but as you can see the PS3 version of RB is compatible with only a very small portion of available "Music Game Controllers" unless you count being able to navigate the menus as "Compatible."

Also note, that I don't want RB to work with the Les Paul, I think Activision deserves to be screwed, but I also think Harmonix needs to change the wording on the PS3 game boxes.


Except for the LP none of those work on GH3 either. And it hasn't been elaborated on what the RB patch addressed eaxctly. It may in fact add support for alot of those guitar controllers.

[espher]

Yes, let's include controllers not designed for the console.

Genius!

I HAVE STRING TAPED TO A PAIR OF SPOONS AND I CAN'T USE THEM TO PLAY THE VOCALS WTF HARMONIX

[dfjdejulio]

I HAVE STRING TAPED TO A PAIR OF SPOONS AND I CAN'T USE THEM TO PLAY THE VOCALS WTF HARMONIX

Actually, you probably could if you find some way to connect them to any generic USB audio adapter...

I'm a wee bit tempted to try to get a USB audio adapter and connect a Telefunken U 47 to it... ah, not until we can get "Joe's Garage" as DLC.

[logicalnoise]

Actually, you probably could if you find some way to connect them to any generic USB audio adapter...

I'm a wee bit tempted to try to get a USB audio adapter and connect a Telefunken U 47 to it... ah, not until we can get "Joe's Garage" as DLC.

I'm still working on my speak n spell mod. :P

[SoKGiX]

the way i see it...

HMX: alright, the ps3 guys are pissed the LP doesn't work with our game when it does for 360. Lets get a patch out to fix this.

Ok, patch is done. Here you are Sony, can you please distribute this ASAP.

Activision: No, you guys can't release this for our controller unless you ___________.

HMX: whoa, wtf? why would we do that when we didn't have to for the 360 guys?





there's no reason HMX should pay for this when the interoperability already exists on the 360. Activision is probably just trying to make a quick buck and HMX isn't having any of it.

sorry ps3 guys, you may not see this patch until activision folds, and idk if they will anytime soon. your best bet is to hit up HMX and tell them you want to know what activision is demanding. from there, you can decide what you want to see happen.

[Bakkster]

I'd just figure if someone were going to make a game for 2 different consoles they'd say...test it on both consoles. Check the making of videos in the game, its all 360 (wired) stuff.

Harmonix brough this on themselves as well as everyone else screwing up on top of it.
These guys are professionals? Sure?

How do you suggest they test the PS3 Les Paul before the game went gold? It's not like Red Octane gave them a few copies to test it before GH3 was released. HMX had no more than a week or two of contact with the LP before RB went gold, and the game was in final testing by then.

Could you lend HMX your Dagger of Time so they can go back in time with a Les Paul? Maybe they could use your Delorean instead. Can you reach 88MPH in the Boston area, or will they need to travel out of town?

[Huskie]

.. Can you reach 88MPH in the Boston area, or will they need to travel out of town?
Obviously you have never driven in Boston.
88 mph? Phhsh. That's nothing :D

[DesiredFX]

Obviously you have never driven in Boston.
88 mph? Phhsh. That's nothing :D

Sounds like Atlanta: going 85 on the downtown stretches of I-85, I was the slowpoke.

[Insignificant_Other]

I posted this in another thread as well, but I'll post it here too.

Don't let this publicity stunt confuse you.

Why should Harmonix agree to pay Activision anything? Activision is the company benefiting here, They do nothing and sell more units at Harmonix's expense to play on Harmonix's game at no cost

Ask yourself one simple question; If company X created a 3rd party peripheral would they call up Harmonix and demand a cash settlement for the opportunity of allowing company X's peripheral to work with Harmonix's game? Not on your life. The opportunity to profit off of RB by company X being allowed to sell their peripheral to be used with RB is their compensation for creating the peripheral. Paying royalties does happen all the time, but it's the other way around. Company X should b paying HMX for the opportunity the sell their product to be used on RB!! Not the other way around.

Yes, we, the end users, are the one's getting hurt by all of this, but lets stay focussed on who is doing the stonewalling. But, Trying to extort money out of Harmonix for the mere privilege of allowing Activision to sell more of it's guitars is ridiculous. Even if everything in Activision statement is true, it changes nothing.


I don't think Activision is looking at this the way most of us are. To them, protection of their GH franchise is #1. A big part of that franchise is the controllers, because Red Octane is a major partner in this enterprise. RO only makes controllers, and their tactic from the early days of the franchise has been to do everythign possible to ensure that they maintain hardware sales by purposely gimping things for any 3rd-party manufacturer that tries to create a controller for use in the GH games. So there is that angle to keep in mind - it's a given, and it's how they think. They don't say "allowing 3rd party controllers will increase sales of GH by giving consumers more options", they say "allowing 3rd party controllers will decrease sales of RO controllers, which is bad." Are they right or wrong? Who knows, but the important thing is that this is what they believe.

Now carry that notion forward to the current situation. Activision purchases RO and the GH franchise expecting to make a huge amount of money as the dominant (and up to now. completely unchallenged) force in music games. Now, however, two bad things have happened with the release of GHIII. First, the game itself is not as good as its predecessors and is developed by a team that has no experience with music games. So while sales of GHIII were astounding, Activision may suspect (as I do) that this is ismply because Guitar Hero has finally become a household name, and so while many bought it, a good portion of those who did are disappointed and may have soured on the whole franchise. The second thing that has happened, of course, is that Harmonix introduced RB at the same time, which directly competes with GHIII, and at a time when the GH franchise is at its weakest (in terms of quality). So right now RB is the new kid on the block, with no name recognition but the potential to steal a huge amount of market share if it is allowed to succeed.

They aren't dumb - they know Harmonix is an ace developer and can pull this off. So, IMO, they are *scared* that now, after making this huge investment in buying the franchise, they will see their big $$$ stolen away by Harmonix, MTV, and Atari. So they have to ask themselves "What can we do to ensure Rock Band doesn't succeed and defeat us in the market place?" Well, RB's weak spot is its hardware, so that is what Activision is focusing on. Why would they want their *own product* to prop up their competition and help it weather a difficult infancy? Their best tactic is to do whatever they can to ensure that RB purchasers become unhappy with their very expensive purchase, and decide that the GH franchise is the "real deal" while RB is a cheap knock-off. *We* know that Harmonix is the brains behind RB, and we know what that means. But the average consumer does not - to them GH is GH is GH. And it's the average consumer Activision cares about winning over, not the RB fans on these forums (most of whom they've lost anyway).

Activision is thinking long-term. They are concerned with the dominance of their franchise, and are not willing to gain a few extra sales if it will mean it ultimately leads to making RB work better. To Activision this is a war, and they want to win the war. I imagine the thinking at Activision is that GH4 will be a much better product, because the dev team will have made their mistakes in GHIII and will have the infrastructure to make a killer product next year (they had basicaly less than a year to completely recreate GH, and IMO while I don't like the game it's pretty amazing it's as "good" as it is). If they can limit the success of RB in its first year while they ramp up to GH4, they can hopefully maintain their much-bigger market share, and hopefully GH users will be so happy with the franchise that they will never even bother checking out RB, because "I heard from a friend that it had a lot of hardware problems."

All my opinion, of course, and I don't like any of it, but it makes sense to me.

[Bakkster]

All my opinion, of course, and I don't like any of it, but it makes sense to me.

I think you're absolutely correct. I wish they knew the phrase was "Innovate or die", not "Innovate or use dirty tactics to protect a sub-par product". :D

[tbradshaw]

It appears flaming is tolerated as long as it backs HMX's line.

No, don't be so presumptuous.

I don't know how things are for Feigned and Apples, but my moderation has been slowed sharply due to the weather. I'll spare you any sob story, but I'm unable to keep up with any fast threads.

[Xero314]

OK, let's just get the dance pads out of there, as they're clearly not meant to be used with a "music game". They're rhythm dance game peripherals. Also knock off ANYTHING with an adapter, because...the adapters are junk. Make an adapter that allows the controller to be recognized by a PS3 game (or recognized properly by a PS2 game) and we'll talk.
Hell, while we're at it, you missed the X-Plorer. ;)

Sure referencing the DDR pads is a stretch (but hardly more than a USB mic since they were not originally designed for game use but were later adapted to game use) as would referencing a 360 controller even though in theory it would plug right into the PS3 and could be made compatible. But all the PS2 controllers should certainly be on the list of available music game controllers since there are adapters that happen to work very well (I play GH2 with my SGs on my PS3 with out issue using a simple $15 adapter)

The point is that this entire argument is stupid, the statement is Vauge and best and Misleading and deceptive at worst. I feel it should be changed as do alot of people that purchased the mostly useless standalone game for PS3 (yes you can sing in it, but that is less than 1/4 of the functionality of the game).

And remember I am one of the people that does not actually want this patch to be released even though I have an Les Paul sitting in my living room collecting dust right now. I would much rather the effort be put into released stand alone strats, or working with a third part developer to get there own controllers out.

[Quastor]

No, don't be so presumptuous.

I don't know how things are for Feigned and Apples, but my moderation has been slowed sharply due to the weather. I'll spare you any sob story, but I'm unable to keep up with any fast threads.

We forgive you.

[Huskie]

...
And remember I am one of the people that does not actually want this patch to be released even though I have an Les Paul sitting in my living room collecting dust right now. I would much rather the effort be put into released stand alone strats, or working with a third part developer to get there own controllers out.
IMO, I'm sure getting their own peripherals out has always been Plan A.
Plan B, the patch, is because Plan A is not going as fast as they want it to go and they wanted to give their fan base with GH3 PS3 controllers a way to use existing controllers.

They have nothing to gain by holding up Plan A. I'm sure they would rather have Plan A out there working to resolve this issue. I would have to guess that they are putting a LOT of effort into getting our their peripherals.

[DesiredFX]

The point is that this entire argument is stupid, the statement is Vauge and best and Misleading and deceptive at worst.
Only if you don't see that "most music game controllers" clearly means "most music game controllers intended for use on this console."

Nobody in their right mind would consider a controller used with an adapter to be something they were required to support or--more importantly--specify that they don't support.

[espher]

Could you lend HMX your Dagger of Time so they can go back in time with a Les Paul? Maybe they could use your Delorean instead. Can you reach 88MPH in the Boston area, or will they need to travel out of town?

I laughed.

[Thr3e2wenty8]

Could you lend HMX your Dagger of Time so they can go back in time with a Les Paul? Maybe they could use your Delorean instead. Can you reach 88MPH in the Boston area, or will they need to travel out of town?

If I still had my delorean I'd rather just run your smart ass over. But I may just find you and PEZ dispenser you with my dagger of time. Don't get so butt hurt pal. You came at me like I beat up your sister or something.

[Bakkster]

If I still had my delorean I'd rather just run your smart ass over. But I may just find you and PEZ dispenser you with my dagger of time. Don't get so butt hurt pal. You came at me like I beat up your sister or something.

:eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:

Kudos on the humorous threat, but I don't think that answers the question. How could HMX design compatibility for hardware (Les Paul) that they didn't have access to? You just accused HMX of not being "professionals" because they couldn't predict how the Les Paul worked. If you can think of a way for them to do that without time travel, let me know.

In the mean time, I'm going to reinforce my turtle necks against daggers wielded by angry trolls...

[Thr3e2wenty8]

:eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:

Kudos on the humorous threat, but I don't think that answers the question. How could HMX design compatibility for hardware (Les Paul) that they didn't have access to? You just accused HMX of not being "professionals" because they couldn't predict how the Les Paul worked. If you can think of a way for them to do that without time travel, let me know.

In the mean time, I'm going to reinforce my turtle necks against daggers wielded by angry trolls...

With all the reports that were out BEFORE the game went gold the word was that the GHIII controllers would work. Noone there disputed any of those claims in any of places I saw great praise of the game. I still dig the game. It's alright though, I dont mind waiting for the single strats and I don't own GHII so I'm not one of the screwed here.
And, dont sweat the threat, I hear you're quite protected there in your moms basement.

[Bakkster]

With all the reports that were out BEFORE the game went gold the word was that the GHIII controllers would work. Noone there disputed any of those claims in any of places I saw great praise of the game. I still dig the game. It's alright though, I dont mind waiting for the single strats and I don't own GHII so I'm not one of the screwed here.
Perhaps you should blame IGN, who claimed the Les Paul would work, even though they only tested on the 360?

As long as you understand why it didn't happen in the first place, you're fine in my book.


And, dont sweat the threat, I hear you're quite protected there in your moms basement.

According to Google Maps I'm about 722 miles from my moms basement. Since I'm apparently not safe here, I'll keep watch for a creepy guy with a replica dagger in a stainless steel car :p

[Bluvox]

With all the reports that were out BEFORE the game went gold the word was that the GHIII controllers would work.

The glass master would have been made 2-3 weeks before release, more than likely. I first saw this report after IGN got their copy of Rock Band for the "battle of the bands" the first week in November. My copy of RB was put together Oct 23. Since GH3 didn't get released until Oct 28th, my copy of Rock Band was already in it's box waiting to be shipped before this was found out about.

3 weeks is not enough time to effect changes when a new peripheral is created. Obviously Actiblunder wasn't going to give Harmoix a pre-release of the controller for the PS3 to test compatibility with them, and designed it away from the standards design that had been set forth previously.

[FoaD420]

Like I said in a different thread...Activision = Cash Chuckers.
Whats funny is that Rockband works with GH....so why would HMX be *itches and not let the compatibility issue work. If they were going to be like that, then why the hell does the Rockband guitar work for GH? LOL

[Thr3e2wenty8]

The glass master would have been made 2-3 weeks before release, more than likely. I first saw this report after IGN got their copy of Rock Band for the "battle of the bands" the first week in November. My copy of RB was put together Oct 23. Since GH3 didn't get released until Oct 28th, my copy of Rock Band was already in it's box waiting to be shipped before this was found out about.

3 weeks is not enough time to effect changes when a new peripheral is created. Obviously Actiblunder wasn't going to give Harmoix a pre-release of the controller for the PS3 to test compatibility with them, and designed it away from the standards design that had been set forth previously.

See this is how a response is done. Thank you Bluvox for not flexing your Message Board Muscles like some here who don't apparently get (or want) to interact with real people.

[Xero314]

Only if you don't see that "most music game controllers" clearly means "most music game controllers intended for use on this console."

Nobody in their right mind would consider a controller used with an adapter to be something they were required to support or--more importantly--specify that they don't support.

They could have just as easily written "Compatible only with the Official Rockband game controllers" and it would have had the exact same meaning. I mean in all honesty RB is compatible will all most all other controllers out there ( from what I know so far). If you look at ALL the different Rockband versions you will see that the only "Music game controller" (assuming that means 5 button guitars, 4 pad drum kits, and usb mics) that does not work is the PS3 Les Paul. I mean no where on the box does it say that "the PS3 version of rockband is compatible with most music game controllers."

But realistically looking at it you would have to see that the standalone RB game (not the bundle) for PS3 is compatible with exactly 1 controller model which is the SIXAXIS which is only useful if you also happen to have a PS3 compatible USB mic (you can't control anything with the mic so it does not qualify as a controller). No other compatible controllers are available for purchase. So in actuality the stand alone ps3 RB game is compatible with exactly 0 music game specific controllers available for purchase outside of the RB Bundle.

The game is also compatible with all living unicorns too but I don't see them putting that on the box, even though it's just as useless as the statement they did put on the box.

[Bakkster]

They could have just as easily written "Compatible only with the Official Rockband game controllers" and it would have had the exact same meaning.

Not quite. This is what should be on the GH3 box, because they actively prevent compatibility.

HMX is open to 3rd-party peripherals, just nobody has made any yet. Red Octane clearly didn't design the Les Paul with Rock Band in mind, nor did HMX have access to one in time to natively support it. Now that the game has been released, we will start seeing TAC, Logitech, or other companies making guitars that are intended for use with Rock Band, and they will work!

Until then, you can't hold it against them that nobody else has made a guitar controller for the PS3 that they are willing to allow in Rock Band.

[Bluvox]

The game is also compatible with all living unicorns too but I don't see them putting that on the box, even though it's just as useless as the statement they did put on the box.

Actually it's not. All Living Unicorns have an issue of only haven't hooves for hands, and stand on 4 feet. Because they are not able to stand on their hind legs to hit the drums while stomping on the foot pedal, it's not compatible.

I believe they seriously attempted to coordinate with the Unicorn lobby to take their issues into account, and decided that they just couldn't support them, thus leaving that claim off the box.

Sorry DFX, tried to find a cartoon of unicorns playing poker.. I failed.

[DesiredFX]

you can't control anything with the mic so it does not qualify as a controller

Depends how you define "control." In the game, the mic is used to capture the pitch of the vocalist and move the arrow to match with the pitch bar...that is, "control" the pitch arrow. It is also used to trigger the vocalist's overdrive which--since it can save a failed player--would fall under virtually any definition of "control."

But this argument has become entirely about semantics, which misses the point entirely.

The real point is that, for any savvy consumer, the phrase "most music game controllers" should translate directly to "I should do more research before I buy."

[Xero314]

Depends how you define "control." In the game, the mic is used to capture the pitch of the vocalist and move the arrow to match with the pitch bar...that is, "control" the pitch arrow. It is also used to trigger the vocalist's overdrive which--since it can save a failed player--would fall under virtually any definition of "control."

But this argument has become entirely about semantics, which misses the point entirely.

The real point is that, for any savvy consumer, the phrase "most music game controllers" should translate directly to "I should do more research before I buy."


You can't play the game with a USB mic, you must have a sixaxis controller to enter the game play portions of the game, so the mic does not count as a controller.

And when something says "most" it should be safe to assume that it means something other than those which come with the bundle. Yes a savvy shopper should do their research, and had they done research before the game was released they would have been left with the impression that RB was compatible with the GH3 Les Paul without there being a single statement from Harmonix, MTV or EA saying otherwise.

Harmonix and everyone else knows, had they been honest and said "Not Compatible with GH3 Les Paul Controller" or "Only Compatible with the Official Rockband Controllers" on the box (both of which are true statements) their would have been less sales, specifically of the standalone game (which yes I believe was either released by accident or with the intention of having a patch out quickly).

I support Harmonix, but the line should be changed as it is misleading and deceptive (notice I did not say illegal). Personally I think they should change it to say "Do to the GH3 licensing agreement Activision has made it illegal for use of the GH3 Les Paul guitar controller with any games other than Activision games, including Rockband."

[espher]

Actually it's not. All Living Unicorns have an issue of only haven't hooves for hands, and stand on 4 feet. Because they are not able to stand on their hind legs to hit the drums while stomping on the foot pedal, it's not compatible.

I believe they seriously attempted to coordinate with the Unicorn lobby to take their issues into account, and decided that they just couldn't support them, thus leaving that claim off the box.

Sorry DFX, tried to find a cartoon of unicorns playing poker.. I failed.

For what it's worth, the unicorn could clearly hold one drum stick in its teeth and use a combination of that and the horn to hit the pads, and use one front hoof to hit the bass drum pedal while balancing on a front and back hoof and using the second back hoof to repeatedly hit Activision in the balls.

[DesiredFX]

Yes a savvy shopper should do their research, and had they done research before the game was released they would have been left with the impression that RB was compatible with the GH3 Les Paul without there being a single statement from Harmonix, MTV or EA saying otherwise.

Then let's strip it down: would you or would you not say that someone spending $60 on a game without taking the time to learn if it will work with their system and peripherals deserves what they get?

[Xero314]

Not quite. This is what should be on the GH3 box, because they actively prevent compatibility.

Actually it does say this on the GH3 box. Well it does not say that it is incompatible but it does say that no one is legally licensed to use the GH3 Les Paul with any non Activision game.


HMX is open to 3rd-party peripherals, just nobody has made any yet. Red Octane clearly didn't design the Les Paul with Rock Band in mind, nor did HMX have access to one in time to natively support it. Now that the game has been released, we will start seeing TAC, Logitech, or other companies making guitars that are intended for use with Rock Band, and they will work!

Until then, you can't hold it against them that nobody else has made a guitar controller for the PS3 that they are willing to allow in Rock Band.

Again this is like saying "Rockband is compatible with all Blue MX22 Multifunctional Game controllers." I mean it's not Harmonix's fault that such a controller does not actually exist.

Maybe the box should say "Please see harmonix.com/compatibility/PS3 for a list of all currently compatible controllers." Then when people take a look at the list and see that the only controllers that are compatible are not actually available they will be able to make a better educated decision.

[Bakkster]

Harmonix and everyone else knows, had they been honest and said "Not Compatible with GH3 Les Paul Controller" or "Only Compatible with the Official Rockband Controllers" on the box (both of which are true statements) their would have been less sales, specifically of the standalone game (which yes I believe was either released by accident or with the intention of having a patch out quickly).

They couldn't have printed "Not compatible with Les Paul" for two reasons:
1) It's a legal and courtesy no-no to call a competitor out by name.
2) They didn't really anticipate that RO would block the patch, nor would they have had time to reprint the boxes by the time they found out.

The statement "Only Compatible with the Official Rockband Controllers" would be just as misleading once a 3rd-party does make a Rock Band controller. Now, though, people would accuse HMX of being Activision-level d-bags. Catch-22? You bet.

[Chris_Gonzalez]

I think this sort of reminds me of a "Texas as a State" sort of thing. Way back when Texas was becoming a state, Mexican and American soldiers clashed near the border. The president at the time said "They spilled American blood on our own soil!", which was a good call because Mexico could have said it first and maybe had an upper hand in the war. that followed.

I'm surprised I remember this stuff from 3 years back...

Anyway, I'm calling bull**** on Activision's claim. I highly doubt that MTV/Viacom and Harmonix (the "and Harmonix" bit is what makes me disblieve this) would not accept an agreement to speak with Activision on this matter. Activision has made me lose all of my faith in it. I'm never purchasing an Activision game again. Unless it's used, 'cause they don't get any profits that way.

[Bakkster]

Maybe the box should say "Please see harmonix.com/compatibility/PS3 for a list of all currently compatible controllers." Then when people take a look at the list and see that the only controllers that are compatible are not actually available they will be able to make a better educated decision.

That could probably work as well. I still say that only a fool assumes the Les Paul will work, just because of the word "most".

[terRize]

That could probably work as well. I still say that only a fool assumes the Les Paul will work, just because of the word "most".

Fool might be a bit harsh but I agree 100%. ;) Especially if the following is true:


Actually it does say this on the GH3 box. Well it does not say that it is incompatible but it does say that no one is legally licensed to use the GH3 Les Paul with any non Activision game.

[Xero314]

Then let's strip it down: would you or would you not say that someone spending $60 on a game without taking the time to learn if it will work with their system and peripherals deserves what they get?

Depends on the situation. You will notice that Rockband does not say on the XBox versions that "Rockband is compatible with the PS3 and PS2" even though this is a completely valid statement because it would lead to confusion. I feel that the statement on the box as it is now will also lead to confusion (as it has).

The standalone copy should at least say "Requires additional controllers not available with this version of the game or the console." I play alot of games, including board games, and you will notice that on every board game expansion there is a gigantic warning saying that this expansion can not be played without owning the full game. They did not need to do this with the Guitar Hero series because those could be played with the consoles bundled controllers.

I think it would be in Harmonix, MTV Games and EAs best interest to make this clear. I don't want people to be upset at Rockband, I want it to be a very successful game so that we can have tons of DLC in the future.

[Frederf]

I am trying to enlighten you. But if you think for even a second that HMX doesn't have the customer's back in this you are very very sadly misinformed. If you saw how hard we are ALL working to get this patch out to people you would back down. We are working our asses off and believe me no one wants to see this place keep descending into a shout fest. I will update when I have more info.

I believe that the HMX employees think the way the customers do. This is how engineers think; they don't understand the notions of purposefully breaking something that should by all rights work.

"This is a game that uses a guitar controller?"
"Yup."
"This is a guitar controller?"
"Yup."
"Can they be made to work together?"
"Yup."
"Well, let's do it!"

Making good software means that if there's a reasonable hardware controller out there, you make your software utilize it because it makes your software a better product for the customer. Harmonix is of this ilk, Activision is not. Actually I'm sure your trench-level programmer over at Activision is like-minded and may even have coded something which could potentially be included in GHIII to make the Strat work in it. Heck I'm sure HMX would gladly gift some code to make the Strat work in GHIII. It's the management above the trench level at Activision that is likely the problem.

The recent press release by Activision just plain hurts my brain. The statement "declined Activision's offer to reach an agreement" is a flat out lie. Activision didn't offer to make an agreement, they made an offer qualified with some sort of unacceptable demand. Making an offer to reach an agreement means saying "Hey, other party, let's sit down and work out an agreement." Saying "Hey, other party, let's sit down and work out an agreement for how much you're going to pay us to get what you want." is no longer the same thing. I despise abuse and misuse of the English language like this.

The "Open standard" controllers, parallel development, lack of out-of-box cross-compatibility, etc, etc are all an aside issue. The past aside, HMX can make controller X work with game Y right now. Ignore for a second why it couldn't in the past, the motivations behind making it work/not work. An "open standard" would be nice but it's clearly not necessary for this short term compatibility.

[Dissent]

I think it was a perfectly reasonable assumption to make that the Les Paul would work with Rockband especially considering that it does work on the 360.

[keyrat]

What I want to know is, does the patch use copyright code or what? If not, then why would there need to be any permission?

[Bakkster]

I think it was a perfectly reasonable assumption to make that the Les Paul would work with Rockband especially considering that it does work on the 360.

People thought it was a reasonable assumption that GH1 3rd-party guitars would work on GH2, but RO made sure that didn't happen either.

[MacGrad]

Wow. You sure know a whole lot about this situation don't you? I mean there it is right? It's in a press release it must be true!

(Wow -- this is the first time I've ever seen Sean come close to losing it on these boards... assuming I'm reading the right tone into his words.)

You know, I don't know Sean and Johnlok and the rest of the HMX team, but I believe they've shown a lot of restraint and patience with some of the threads/posters on the Rock Band site. Next time I'm in Boston, I'd love to drop off a case of (Canadian) beer for them to enjoy, just as a 'thank you' for all the work they've put into this.

[holyground]

To Music Gaming Fans: The recent announcement by MTV Games/Viacom's Harmonix division that Activision is blocking Sony from releasing a patch and their plea to enable Rock Band software to work with Guitar Hero hardware paints a very misleading picture.

Someone needs to slap who wrote this. It's not a sentence nor a complete thought and yet it is phrased as such. Why does it have a period? If your job is to write terse statements in corporate land, you should at least have a fumbling grasp of English.


While it may not be the most efficient sentence ever constructed, It is a sentence. I think you're confused by the interjection without comma. Basically the sentence is "The recent announcement by MTV Games/Viacom's Harmonix division paints a very misleading picture."

Now, on the other hand, how a statement could possibly paint a picture is another question.

Oh, and release the patch for my ps3 brethren.

[SoulScreme]

I am trying to enlighten you. But if you think for even a second that HMX doesn't have the customer's back in this you are very very sadly misinformed. If you saw how hard we are ALL working to get this patch out to people you would back down. We are working our asses off and believe me no one wants to see this place keep descending into a shout fest. I will update when I have more info.

Sean, how are you trying to enlighten? You say you'll give us more info when you have it, but you're saying we don't know what's happening. This implies that YOU do. Thus, you have more information. If you want us to really take one side in this crap fest we customers are stuck in the middle of, tell us what you know that should make us think otherwise. I mean, honestly, you say we shouldn't overreact to Activision's press release. But why should we believe yours more than theirs? You see, I'm not a long time HMX fan. Personally, I only ever liked GH1. I've actually enjoyed far more Activision products over the years. Right now, I think you're both at fault. If you want to change that, give me a reason. Otherwise, don't get mad when people aren't telepathic enough to know all the details.

[ssantos11]

I don't have a PS3, I do have a 360 and Harmonix has shown they want to be able to let users use GH II controllers with Rock Band, both my wired GH II and wireless GH III controllers work with Rock Band perfectly.
In fact it's what has saved me while I wait for my warranty return from EA for the broken strum bar.

All of that to say this. Why wouldn't anyone here believe Harmonix? Clearly they are the ones that want to have an open standard so the consumer can choose thier hardware themselves. They proved it on the 360 by making it compatible. But Activision has not allowed it to happen in reverse.

I don't understand how Sony does not step in and say hey you are licensing the ability to make a controller for the PS whatever so it has to work with any game that it's meant for.

It's like saying Ubisoft will release a Ubisoft controller that only works on Ubisoft FPS games. That's way lame. If Harmonix has a patch they should be allowed to put it in the hands of gamers and Sony and Harmonix should stand up to Activision and make it happen.

I for one believe Harmonix on this issue.

[Ventura]

I am working on trying to get the truth of the situation out as soon as I can. This is all very frustrating.

Now that's going to be a statement worth reading.

While I'd believe Harmonix over the scumbags at Activision any day of the week, I'd seriously love to know exactly what went on between the two. Here's hoping we can have someone fill in the blanks for us very soon now.

[Jealleo]

You can't make a patch for stupid...

That is just awesome... :D

[Ventura]

Sean, how are you trying to enlighten? You say you'll give us more info when you have it, but you're saying we don't know what's happening. This implies that YOU do. Thus, you have more information. If you want us to really take one side in this crap fest we customers are stuck in the middle of, tell us what you know that should make us think otherwise. I mean, honestly, you say we shouldn't overreact to Activision's press release. But why should we believe yours more than theirs? You see, I'm not a long time HMX fan. Personally, I only ever liked GH1. I've actually enjoyed far more Activision products over the years. Right now, I think you're both at fault. If you want to change that, give me a reason. Otherwise, don't get mad when people aren't telepathic enough to know all the details.

That is a great, great post. I agree wholeheartedly.

[municipalblack]

This whole thing is plain ridiculous. Anyone with a half a brain knows that Harmonix is in the right on this one.
They went out of their way to make a patch, released it to Sony, and after a few days of hate mail to Activision we get this sad press release.

F U Activision. Guess what you just lost the sales of a copy of GH3 on the PS3, and Wii (Was going to be a Christmas present). Let's not forget about word of mouth, and with a stunt like this Activision isn't going to be one anyones favorites list.
Even if they "allow" the release of the patch I'm going to suffer for two months until the individual strats are released. If refuse to give Activision a dime with the lame crap they're trying to pull on PS3 owners.

It would be a shame if somehow the patch was leaked ;)

EDIT: I hope everyone continues to email Activision with there frustration. Here is what I wrote:

I'd like to thank you for reconfirming my suspicions that Activision is a money hungry corporation that will get nothing of the like from myself or anyone that I associate with. Your press release clearly shows that you want money in order to allow the Les Paul to work with Rock Band. It's sad and pathetic that this is what it has come down to for you. The extra sales from Rock Band owners who want a second guitar isn't incentive enough apparently most likely because they would realize that your product is inferior and boycott the overpriced DLC that you offer.
So again thank you for "showing me the light". You have just lost two sales of GH3. One for the PS3 and another for the Wii. I will not support a company as petty as you.

[DesiredFX]

Sean, how are you trying to enlighten? You say you'll give us more info when you have it, but you're saying we don't know what's happening. This implies that YOU do. Thus, you have more information.

There's a difference between knowing something and being able to release it to the public.


If you want us to really take one side in this crap fest we customers are stuck in the middle of, tell us what you know that should make us think otherwise. I mean, honestly, you say we shouldn't overreact to Activision's press release. But why should we believe yours more than theirs?

He's not saying we should believe HMX's press release over Activision's. He's saying what any HMX employee on the HMX Rock Band board would say: that we don't know the whole story.

Which we don't.

People on both sides of this have reacted like press releases are either the gospel truth (they aren't), immutable personal promises (they aren't), or an attempt to cover up some arcane conspiracy (they aren't).

What they are is a company stating the case from their perspective in--surprise--a way that makes them look as much like the good guys as possible.

Create a filter in your mind that cancels out as much of the "feel good" as you can and you'll discover what the press release is really telling you.

In the case of the Activision release, we not only have their version and the HMX version, we also have our own experiences of what went on.

One thing to remember is that, back when this whole thing started, we were told that HMX had a patch ready. This supported a few rumors that were already milling around the boards. At one point, we were told that the compatibility issue would be fixed "within a few hours."

Then, nothing. For over a week, nothing.

During that week, another rumor slips out--Activision is blocking the patch.

HMX's announcement verifies that rumor.

A few days later Activision comes out with their own statement which--in its own way--verifies the rumor: the patch can't be released because HMX and MTV Games won't respond to Activision's offer to reach an agreement.

At the very least, this is an admission by Activision that their satisfaction on this issue is the impetus behind the patch not being released as anticipated on December fourth.

Now, if you want to be especially cynical about it--and there's really no reason not to be, since we're talking about business and money--you could say that HMX's initial announcement about the availability of the patch was an intentional leak...that its purpose was to give HMX some credibility in the face of an anticipated effort by Activision to stop the patch from being released.

But there's a problem with that theory: a leak isn't non-specific information released on a company-owned discussion board that can be directly traced to a company employee. A leak is a phone call placed to the press by an insider under conditions of anonymity. As such, we can figure that the initial announcement of the anticipated patch--vague as it was--was likely true.

And if that one piece of information is true, it does two things: puts the rest of the sequence of events into perspective and supports the idea that Harmonix is trying to deal honestly with their customers.

Further, the shape of the filter used to read Activision's press release is changed because it has to be understood that there is an actual patch that Harmonix was ready to release which has not been released.

Harmonix says that's because Activision is blocking it and Activision doesn't deny that they're in the way of the patch being released...they just attempt to re-define the word "block" in a way that makes them look like the good guy.

This is called "spin."

Ultimately, the result is that a huge amount of the information coming from Harmonix scans and none of the information from Activision disproves it...it simply admits to it in a gentler way.

[SoulScreme]

Desired, my cynical drives are overheating at this point. Personally I think that the "leak" or incorrect posting or whatever, was meant to whip the user base into a frenzy. A frenzy, that when certain details came out, would make one company look awesome and have the fans point their ire to the competition. Also, possibly, to push some PS3 owners into buying the game.

For me, my cynicism is driven by my experiences prior to the patch announcement. We heard from Sean and Johnlok time and again how Harmonix refused to make announcements before all information was 100% verified. Then the patch announcement says that the patch is up and it is not. It's just too interesting that this "accident" occurred that has been a large part of throwing many users into a fit. I mean, threatening boycotts, releasing the phone numbers of executives at Activision to harass them, flooding the Guitar Hero 3 boards, etc. And, interestingly, Harmonix has encouraged this by taking no action on those threads whatsoever.

Just my 2 cents. Still love the game, though UT3 is stealing me away.

[Bakkster]

Personally I think that the "leak" or incorrect posting or whatever, was meant to whip the user base into a frenzy. A frenzy, that when certain details came out, would make one company look awesome and have the fans point their ire to the competition. Also, possibly, to push some PS3 owners into buying the game.

http://www.sexhamster.com/weblog/macropics/tinfoil-hat.jpg

[SoulScreme]

http://www.sexhamster.com/weblog/macropics/tinfoil-hat.jpg

Conspiracies require multiple parties. This is just Harmonix PR, totally not a conspiracy. Just being douchey, if it's true. I doubt it is, but it was my gut reaction.

[DesiredFX]

Well, of course, it's easy and reasonable to be cynical about this, but my perspective is that I haven't been around these boards long enough to know whether the original almost-an-announcement about the patch tended to fit with or deviate from the pattern of HMX participation on these boards.

I do know that the uber-tight-lipped approach since then is exactly what I would expect if it was an honest mistake.

As for leaving threads open, you may have a point...but, then again, it is the Rock Band board...anything they can do to leverage Activision in this instance shouldn't be surprising and can even be said to be supported for the fans' sake rather than for Harmonix'.

With sales of RB reportedly rather high and increasing goodwill among customers who have finally put their defective instrument problems behind them (not all of us, of course, but an increasing number, to be sure), the best course of action for Harmonix/EA is to drop the business of the patch and just wait for the PS3 customers to storm the stores at the end of January looking for additional controllers.

Heck, given that they're using the same peripherals for the PS2 version, I wouldn't be surprised to see PS3 owners snapping up PS2 bundles and selling off the drums and software to PS2 owners who already have GH controllers (which are also compatible).

[Majic19]

Desired, my cynical drives are overheating at this point. Personally I think that the "leak" or incorrect posting or whatever, was meant to whip the user base into a frenzy. A frenzy, that when certain details came out, would make one company look awesome and have the fans point their ire to the competition. Also, possibly, to push some PS3 owners into buying the game.

For me, my cynicism is driven by my experiences prior to the patch announcement. We heard from Sean and Johnlok time and again how Harmonix refused to make announcements before all information was 100% verified. Then the patch announcement says that the patch is up and it is not. It's just too interesting that this "accident" occurred that has been a large part of throwing many users into a fit. I mean, threatening boycotts, releasing the phone numbers of executives at Activision to harass them, flooding the Guitar Hero 3 boards, etc. And, interestingly, Harmonix has encouraged this by taking no action on those threads whatsoever.

Just my 2 cents. Still love the game, though UT3 is stealing me away.

In order for your "assumptions" and cynicism to have any basis, the actual existence of a patch would have to have been a complete fabrication by HMX. Activision and Sony both acknowledges that the patch exits and WAS scheduled to be released. No one has disputed this. All 3 parties have acknowledge that Activision is the party holding up it's release.

So how, again, is this just the HMX PR machine?

Not to mention you routinely twist HMX's words to make it sound like they were intentionally trying to deceive us.

[espher]

Christ, and yet you can still call me a Harmonix apologist with a straight face?

[Majic19]

Christ, and yet you can still call me a Harmonix apologist with a straight face?

Now that's funny!!!

[SoulScreme]

Christ, and yet you can still call me a Harmonix apologist with a straight face?

Yeah, easily.

[Frederf]

While it may not be the most efficient sentence ever constructed, It is a sentence. I think you're confused by the interjection without comma. Basically the sentence is "The recent announcement by MTV Games/Viacom's Harmonix division paints a very misleading picture."

My mistake, I didn't read the next line which completes the sentence. Wholly my fault there. I can be open to the idea expressed in that complete sentence.


There's a difference between knowing something and being able to release it to the public.

Of course that's certainly possible, but HMXSean only indicated that he knew information the rest of us don't and nothing about how free he was to divulge it. It's tantamount to saying "neener neener" to tell the forum audience "You don't know what I know" without a statement like "but I cannot tell you because I haven't been released to do so." Not to tell HMXSean his job, but it's just a friendly bit of advice: If you cannot divulge information we want, say you can't, that's fine. Otherwise you seem like some sort of mushroomhead that gets off on withholding info.

What frustrates me personally is that a few companies behave in what appears to me to be an irrational manner, and every time someone comes out with a bit of clarity (wrong or right) the other camp releases a statement that just muddies the waters. "The previous statement made by our rivals was misleading" is a fine statement, but it should always be succeeded by a sentence beginning "The actual situation is this... " which doesn't happen.

Activision clearly has whatever motivation to have GHIII stuff only to work with GHIII stuff. It might be a dumb idea but it's their idea, I can understand where they're coming from even if I don't agree with it.

HMX on the other hand, while I approve of their goals more, behaves in a far more confusing manner. They knew pretty early on that whatever controller was not physically compatible with their software, many people believed it was, it was going to be significant, and yet did nothing. Not a press release, nothing. Weird.

There is no information such as (and this is made up for illustrative purposes) "On August 2nd, HMX offered Activision the specifications for the Rock Band controllers and cooperation in getting their hardware to work on Guitar Hero series software. This cooperation was rebuked and all given information that could have allowed GHIII software to support the Stratocaster was in turn intentionally not used by Activision."

We later learn that their "open standard" for music game controllers just means that they follow the standard controller format and hadn't actually made any standard for such controllers at all. While better than what Activision did, it was still a misuse of general terminology. An "open standard" is a public document that specifies "if you want to make a guitar controller that works with software that support this standard then you do this, this, and this and it will work in that software" and that's simply not what HMX did.

Activision are bold and brash with their huge "Only use GUITAR HERO stuff with other GUITAR HERO stuff!" (which borders on anti-trust?) disclaimers so it's pretty easy to figure them out. HMX is far more quiet. There's so little information coming out of HMX about exactly what they attempted to do and what was the result of it that one really has to question how pure their intentions are.

[REICHLEIN]

From our friends over at Penny Arcade. Activision has already shown us it's business model by blocking 3rd party guitar controllers to work with GH. They want a monopoly. Sorry Activision, I enjoy your game, but Harmonix completely out did you.

http://img155.imageshack.us/img155/5999/activisionprne9.jpg

[4degrees]

Why don't they just release a patch that "happens" to fix the les paul problem?

[booms]

i just emailed sony they need to step up and make us ps3 owners equal to the xbox360....

[DesiredFX]

I know I've been very vocal in this thread and others on the topic, but now that I'm all talked out about it, I realize it's just a tempest in a teapot.

Two months from now, the fact that there is no patch will not matter to people buying Rock Band. Instead of giving Activision money for a second controller, they will simply pick up a second Rock Band Strat to fill out their band.

All it screws up is the holiday sales window, which matters to Activision and Harmonix, but, y'know, to the rest of us...not so much.

I've already admitted that my impulsive purchase of GHIII thinking it would be compatible was my own mistake, and I expect that in the next two months, more people will find themselves admitting the same thing.

Just as statements made about the failings of the PS3 last year are no longer true this year and will be all but forgotten next year, this fiasco will also be left behind in the coming months and years.

Should Harmonix--as we all expect them to--remain dedicated to keeping the Rock Band franchise alive and vital, it will succeed or fail on its own merits, not on whether or not it is compatible with one specific controller on one specific platform.

Furthermore, if Harmonix stands behind their "open standards for all music controllers" philosophy, it won't be long until their peripherals become a viable instrument of choice for more games than just Rock Band: thanks in large part to Harmonix' efforts, this genre is thriving in the sort of way that encourages other developers to try their hands at similar games, even if only as an attempt to get in on a fad before it fades. Should Harmonix manage to ensure that their Rock Band controllers work with games by every developer (apart from Activision), they really won't have to worry about the stunt Activision tried to pull, here.

[Ventura]

nds behind their "open standards for all music controllers" philosophy, it won't be long until their peripherals become a viable instrument of choice for more games than just Rock Band: thanks in large part to Harmonix' efforts, this genre is thriving in the sort of way that encourages other developers to try their hands at similar games, even if only as an attempt to get in on a fad before it fades. Should Harmonix manage to ensure that their Rock Band controllers work with games by every developer (apart from Activision), they really won't have to worry about the stunt Activision tried to pull, here.

That's a good point.

Suppose in the future there end up any number of guitar-type games. If recent events are anything to go by, there will end up being two types of controllers out there; those that work with Guitar Hero, and those that work with everything else.

Activision's controllers won't end up in nearly as much demand as they are now because we'll all only be able to use them with just the one game franchise.

In the long run, I'd like to hope their own shortsightedness will cost them dearly.

[o0MeTaL0o]

Reading it a second time, I have to wonder if "We are focusing our efforts on innovating hardware and software that are designed to work together, work flawlessly and provide an enjoyable gaming experience." actually means "and we're worried that the patch will make our PS3 controller work better for Rock Band than it does for our own game."


I know I've been very vocal in this thread and others on the topic, but now that I'm all talked out about it, I realize it's just a tempest in a teapot.

Two months from now, the fact that there is no patch will not matter to people buying Rock Band. Instead of giving Activision money for a second controller, they will simply pick up a second Rock Band Strat to fill out their band.

All it screws up is the holiday sales window, which matters to Activision and Harmonix, but, y'know, to the rest of us...not so much.

I've already admitted that my impulsive purchase of GHIII thinking it would be compatible was my own mistake, and I expect that in the next two months, more people will find themselves admitting the same thing.

Just as statements made about the failings of the PS3 last year are no longer true this year and will be all but forgotten next year, this fiasco will also be left behind in the coming months and years.

Should Harmonix--as we all expect them to--remain dedicated to keeping the Rock Band franchise alive and vital, it will succeed or fail on its own merits, not on whether or not it is compatible with one specific controller on one specific platform.

Furthermore, if Harmonix stands behind their "open standards for all music controllers" philosophy, it won't be long until their peripherals become a viable instrument of choice for more games than just Rock Band: thanks in large part to Harmonix' efforts, this genre is thriving in the sort of way that encourages other developers to try their hands at similar games, even if only as an attempt to get in on a fad before it fades. Should Harmonix manage to ensure that their Rock Band controllers work with games by every developer (apart from Activision), they really won't have to worry about the stunt Activision tried to pull, here.

I agree whole heartedly, and at a design standpoint; I believe RB will win out in the long run.
RB will have a much longer lifespan of re-playability with more and cheaper DLC, additional instruments to choose from, and an open standard which 3rd party developers will thrive on and HMX can work with (like the effects switch expanded as example).
GH3 on the other hand people will get bored with sooner, and will most likely block out 3rd party controllers leaving the public with less to choose from.

[Frederf]

Why don't they just release a patch that "happens" to fix the les paul problem?

I'm pretty sure that HMX doesn't have the ability to act unilaterally to install a patch. They would need to submit it to whatever is the Sony equivalent to XBox Live! and it would then be distributed by Sony. But, that little detail aside, I've never really had it explained to me what specifically is wrong with HMX's proposal; what does it actually violate?

Maybe it's not a a legal problem but one of bully politics. "Do what we say or we take our CoD ball home." I really can only speculate in this information vacuum.

Intellectual Property rights would protect Activision from someone taking a Les Paul home, making a carbon copy of all/part of it, and selling a product resulting from that reverse engineering as their own. This isn't what HMX wants to do. The phrase "fair use" comes to mind but I'm not confident that concept applies.

Someone else mentioned Trademarks but that makes no sense. Trademarks are protected to prevent someone masquerading as a well known company and cashing in on their good name. HMX doesn't want to do this either.

Copyright? That'd be a huge stretch.

Say, Saitek made a joystick and some random PC game developer made a motorcycle racing game that supported that joystick. Now imagine Saitek raising a huge fuss and threatening to sue, etc over someone supporting their controller that they didn't want. It would be laughable/ ridiculous. Can anyone provide any example of such a legal protection against a software company supporting a controller ... in the history of man?

[4degrees]

What I meant was that they could release a general Strat fix patch or something... that happens to fix the les paul problem as well.

[Ultrace]

What I meant was that they could release a general Strat fix patch or something... that happens to fix the les paul problem as well.
I understood your post, but the problem remains and this could be a terrible move to make. If there is some sort of legal reasoning holding back the actual patch, then trying to squeeze it in under the guise of another would be duplicitous at best. Word would spread quickly about how the issue was fixed, Activision would pitch a fit and a) Harmonix could find itself in court, and b) we would quickly see a counter-patch that reversed the effects.

The only real solution here will be Activision agreeing to let the patch be legitimately released.

[Markn951]

GAHH wait wait wait a sec...does this mean I cant use my PS2 GH controller (red SG) with my PS2 Rock Band?

[Thats_Bull]

I don't know if anybody has mentioned this, but Activision doesn't even mention any proof of their claims! They just go "oh yeah... we tried but they said no and..." and more bs like that. Whatever, they can't win anyways, so people can just hold out.

[djbarg]

Yep sounds like a money thing to me too. :eek:

Hell, I would be willing to pony up some cash to receive the update (say 25 to 50 bucks!) Maybe EA could take all that money and defend themselves in court against this obvious extortion tactic. I think Sony needs to step in, be the adult in this situation, and force the kids to play nice

[Frederf]

GAHH wait wait wait a sec...does this mean I cant use my PS2 GH controller (red SG) with my PS2 Rock Band?

I'm pretty sure the ol' red SG was made well before the fascist business practices, the 1984 EULAs printed on the box, and before GH guitar controllers were made specifically to deny functionality.

While I cannot answer your question a definitive yes or no, I can assure you that you have a rather high chance of compatibility.

[CowboyGP]

Holy crap! I've been trying to read this entire thread before posting, but it's growing faster than I can read. I'll be here for days!

As has been said already; as a 360 owner, I really feel for all the PS3 gamers out there.

The best arguements on this point are the ones that compare this to a seperate 3rd party manufacturer. Activision should be looking at this as the gift horse it is, plain and simple.

I believe they're looking at the small picture. They seem to want compensation to allow people who already own the GH controller to use it for RB. And they want HMX to pay that royalty, which is ******ed in the dictionary sense of the word. They're not seeing the effect that could come from PS3'ers who want matching controllers for all games. They're not recognizing the buying habits of consumers. They're missing the boat big-time.

I was watching episode 4 of "The Rise of the Video Game" on TV the other day. One of the points that was made was that during a time when the music industry is fineing, sueing and prosecuting consumers for using their product in ways they didn't intend -- the gaming industry is encouraging it. Case in point, Bungie and Microsoft assisting the producers of the Blue Vs. Red Halo movies.

If Activision were looking at the big picture, they would realize how allowing this patch would pay huge dividends down the road.

Want an example of a company who looks at the big picture? How 'bout Apple? They found a way for the Mac to run Vista... and from the reviews it seems that Macs run Vista better than most PC's. What a coup this could turn out to be! I for one have been a PC'er since getting my first computer back in the 90's. To know that I could now switch to the more user-friendly Mac while keeping the functionality I'm accustomed to, and many of my existing files and documents is huge! Did Apple expect MS to come to an "Agreement" so that Vista would run on the Mac? Of course not, that would have been ******ed (again, in the dictionary sense of the word.). Did Apple recognize an untapped market and put in the due diligence to tap said market? I would say they did, and as such they deserve the hundreds of millions (if not billions) they are likely to make from the endevour.

If Activision could look beyond the immediate gratification their proposed "agreement" would insure, they would recognize the potential long-term gratification to be garnered from simply allowing the patch to go through. If for no other reason as a good-will gesture to the consumers who are being screwed over by their stubbornness.

**** For clarity; the auto-edited word in the above post is defined as: "to make slow; delay the development or progress of (an action, process, etc.); hinder or impede."****

--rant over

[Shayde21]

Activision has no legal ground to stand on. They're just grandstanding because they fear they'll lose the marketshare.

Funny thing is... They'd probably sell MORE GH3 boxes for PS3 if they allowed compatibility. At very least they'll sell more guitars. Right now, you have to use one of theirs in the mix somewhere. Until the Strats are available for sale, they actually have a product Rock Band owners WOULD WANT.

I like the Les Paul. If I didn't have it, I'd have wanted to buy one.

They're also doing it to help block the game-only sales of Rock Band. Which is downright stupid.

They really should pull the head out their asses. They've done little in the way of d-loads for GH3 (actually GH4, but who's quibbling). They could be adding content instead of antagonizing players.

[Fortheloveofgod]

They're also doing it to help block the game-only sales of Rock Band. Which is downright stupid.



Bingo.

Of course that's why they did it.

You think they wanna help the competition?

[Frederf]

Stabbing yourself seems like a long way to go just to get blood on the other company's nice white pants.

[RogerTarin]

screw activision i returned my guitar hero bundle after 29 days from date of purchase. their loss...RB will catch up with DLC and future software. Harmonix makes the rules in here, because they are the main creators of the game...

yes...we had joy we had fun, we had seasons in the sun, but the guitars and that songs in guitar hero now are gone.....

[cjkuhlenbeck]

Couple of things. I DO NOT FAVOR ANY SIDES..just had to get that out but
What if, Activision wants to review the patch first. I mean, like what if a button was off from their original coding or something, would that make activision look bad even though it wasn't their part? And on another note, i really want to see the strats work for both games. (Also, anybody notice the guy said Harmonix made it clear they'd be willing to work with other game developers to use the strat for their games...isint that what activision said???? So isint harmonix looking for money too? just thoughts, no sides)

[Bluvox]

How 'bout Apple? They found a way for the Mac to run Vista... and from the reviews it seems that Macs run Vista better than most PC's. What a coup this could turn out to be!

Only a coup on Dell, maybe. Microsoft will now gets folks to buy the full retail of their product instead of just OEM from manufacturers. Remember, Microsoft doesn't make hardware, so sales of their software is a boon regardless.

I see Activision much more like Apple in the comparison: how many programs besides iTunes can sync with your iPod? How about that patch that caused unlocked iPhones to lock up because of "non-standard use"?

Really, really off topic, though.

[SuburbanHell]

A lot of people are paying $170 for Rock Band bundles filled with controller hardware that's not working properly.

Pay em already; it's not like you don't have the money :)

Hate to say it, but I kind of agree -- pay the man his money and let us move on from this situation already. I have family coming over in a couple days for yaksmas, would be nice to have two guitars working.

[SSPWOLF]

Only a coup on Dell, maybe. Microsoft will now gets folks to buy the full retail of their product instead of just OEM from manufacturers. Remember, Microsoft doesn't make hardware, so sales of their software is a boon regardless.

I see Activision much more like Apple in the comparison: how many programs besides iTunes can sync with your iPod? How about that patch that caused unlocked iPhones to lock up because of "non-standard use"?

Really, really off topic, though.


Microsoft also OWNS Apple. Literally. As in.. The Apple Corporation is part of the Microsoft Corporation.

I digress though....

[ms3boy]

Microsoft also OWNS Apple. Literally. As in.. The Apple Corporation is part of the Microsoft Corporation.

At the 1997 Macworld Expo, Steve Jobs announced that Apple would be entering into a partnership with Microsoft to release new versions of Microsoft Office for the Macintosh as well as a US$150 million investment in non-voting Apple stock.

Not quite ownership...

(And there's no such thing as The Apple Corporation. They used to be Apple Computer, Inc. and then dropped the Computer after the iPod became successful (and the Apple record company case was finally settled) and are now just Apple, Inc.)

[SSPWOLF]

At the 1997 Macworld Expo, Steve Jobs announced that Apple would be entering into a partnership with Microsoft to release new versions of Microsoft Office for the Macintosh as well as a US$150 million investment in non-voting Apple stock.

Not quite ownership...

(And there's no such thing as The Apple Corporation. They used to be Apple Computer, Inc. and then dropped the Computer after the iPod became successful (and the Apple record company case was finally settled) and are now just Apple, Inc.)

I was being fecitious about Microsoft owning them, referring to the Orwellian-esque imagery scene in "Pirates Of The Silicon Valley." ;)


And the term "inc." means "incorporated" ie: a corporation.

[Coupe]

I didn't think Microsoft had anything to do with Vista being able to run on Macs, and I don't think Apple 'found a way' intentionally either. Apple changed from Motorola processors which Windows didn't support, to Intel processors and more standardised architecture which Windows does support. You can put XP on a Mac nowadays if you want, its not limited to Vista - in fact you could put Win 2K if you really wanted to. And for more than 10 years there has been ways to run Windows on Mac's (albeit via software emulation and a little slow at that) - its nothing new.

You can install Mac OS X Tiger on an Intel based PC if you know what you're doing (oh, and if you can get hold of it....... legally of course!).