Activision vs. Harmonix - both are at fault

[bmslynch]

When the next generation of music games was announced, I used the information provided to me to make a buying decision. I purchased a ps3 without ever knowing this horrible situation I would become a part of, as my family contains absolutely no "gamers" and these types of games are all that my family play. Rock band marketed their game as a four player experience, and made it very well known that the guitar hero 3 controller would be compatible as a bass. Wireless guitar for ps3 vs. wired for xbox, good for me as small kids will use this and the less wires the better.

Harmonix messed up. They gave us incorrect information on compatibility. The only way I could justify such a price for a game was because it was for four people, something my whole family could enjoy. This was THE Christmas present under the tree. They are trying to fix this. Activision feels that this patch will encourage people to buy Rock Band if they own GH3, as they will have added fuctionality from the Les Paul they already own. Therefore, they put on some pressure to have it blocked. I don't like the decision, but hey, Activision is trying to run a business, and one of the main things you do when running a business is try to beat your competitors any way you can. Before you trash Activision for trying to make money, stop and think of where you work (or your parents) and they are probably trying to make money also, funny how that works for most families.

Harmonix, if they are charging you a fee or whatever an "agreement" is, that is just too bad, you HAVE to do it. It is not good enough to tell me that you tried, they won't play nice with you, and "hey just your luck you can buy another guitar from us in a couple of months." This is Christmas, and you marketed your game for Christmas and as a four player experience. I have hyped this up to my kids as the way that we all can play together, since in the past we have had to take turns on guitar hero games. Harmonix, you were supposed to improve this, and that is worth 170 bucks for me. Three people having fun while one sits on the sidelines, all while another guitar controller sits in the corner of the room is not what I am going to buy.

This genre of games was very promising. Guitar hero exploded, and some competition seemed like just the thing to really make these developers stretch these games further. Instead, you have fingerpointing and companies that want you to have 6 giant guitar controllers sitting around your living room. I refuse to purchase 2 ps2 GH guitars, 2 ps3 GH guitars, and 2 ps3 Rock Band guitars just to play multiplayer, which is what this industry is currently telling me I have to do. All the while xbox 360 owners can sit back and laugh at my waste of money and space.

Luckily, I have these items wrapped up for Christmas, so they are both factory sealed. I am returning my Rock Band bundle and Guitar Hero 3 to Best Buy on Christmas Eve. I am officially out of this genre until these companies can realize that FULL compatibility is the only solution (refer to the steering wheels for different racing games referenced in these forums.)

Harmonix, you are on the clock. You have until Christmas Eve to keep my sale or this is going back to the store. Do you think it is unfair Activision wants a financial agreement from you to get your patch released? Sorry, you should've got it right the first time like you did for the xbox 360 owners. And no, I do not think that your stand alone guitar is a solution, I am not sinking more money into this disorganized genre nor do I want to tell my kids on Christmas day why only 3 people can play and no one can play on the black guitar. It now falls on you to crawl to your competitor, you are at their mercy since you messed up, to deliver on your promise and how you marketed this game. Otherwise, thanks for taking away my children's big Christmas gift.

[Shayde21]

Take it back.

While you're at it, do yourself a favor and take the PS3 back too.

[espher]

Oh for crying out loud, return the game, spend the cash on something to untie your panties, and spare us the unnecessary dramatics.

[bmslynch]

Take it back.

While you're at it, do yourself a favor and take the PS3 back too.

Sorry I did not put that in there, but yes that is part of the plan. If they ever get this genre figured out to where you don't have to waste time wondering what is compatible, I will jump back in then.

[King_Nuthin]

Honestly, if only being able to play Rock Band with 3 players until this mess gets itself sorted out is capable of "ruining your Christmas" you have far, FAR bigger problems than figuring out what to do with a stupid game.

The notion that Harmonix should pay a king's ransom to Activision if that's what it takes is ridiculous and smacks of entitlement. Activision is being incredibly short sighted and they will be begging Harmonix for compatability in a year's time.

[MacGrad]

Rock band marketed their game as a four player experience, and made it very well known that the guitar hero 3 controller would be compatible as a bass. Wireless guitar for ps3 vs. wired for xbox, good for me as small kids will use this and the less wires the better.

Harmonix messed up. They gave us incorrect information on compatibility.

I've lost track -- how many are we up to now on the "Blame HMX for something that another site wrote about guitar compatibility" scale, and how does it compare to the "People who obviously think the phrase 'Most Music Controllers' means everything under the sun even if it's made for a different system or by a different company for a different franchise"?

[terRize]

Oh for crying out loud, return the game, spend the cash on something to untie your panties, and spare us the unnecessary dramatics.

No doubt. :D


But if anyone insists on *****ing about the patch how about going here? Activision Replies (http://community.rockband.com/vbforum/showthread.php?t=15791)

Enjoy your RB, I know I am ;)

[S1ashRev]

While those X360 owners are laughing about a guitar their system is getting the RRoD. I've experienced it and would definitely take incompatible guitars over a dead system.
Oh, and it is still a four player game you just have to wait for the stand alone guitars. Also your children should learn to share and the great virtue of patience.;)

Edit: Before anybody flames me, I have nothing against the X360 except that it has a 33.3% failure rate. I will probably get another one when they finally fix the problems.

[Xero314]

If you already own Guitars and Guitar Hero's just sell them. They are pretty much obsolete and Rock band will have more content that 2 GHs put together by the end of the year (just by song count alone, not counting the fact that you get twice the content with each song). Take your proceeds from selling the old GH stuff and either wait for the stand alone guitars, purchase one on ebay or just buy a second set since this will also let you have duals in any instrument (you can even recoup $60 by returning the unopened game disk to any store that takes returns without receipt).

By the time the stand alone guitars come out Rockband will just be getting started. This is not a once a year release kind of game that gets old in a couple weeks. There will be new content regularly and will be around for some time.

Oh and if you do return Rockband, there are plenty of people in line to pick it up already. Put it on ebay, I'm sure someone outside the US would love to have it.

[bmslynch]

Starting this thread just helped me prove my own point. HMX says "hey we got the patch, we sent it over, we are the good guys." They start a war, and make everyone hate the other side to the point where all of these kids hate GH3 so much, they will buy another guitar from HMX and boycott all activision going forward. More HMX sales, less Activision sales. All of this is being done at the EXACT same time they are having horrible hardware failure rates, but we are all to busy trashing their competitor the hardware problems are on the back shelf. This is sounding like a great corporate strategy more and more.

[gamingeek]

This is the first sane thread I've read this evening. It is indeed BOTH HMX & ACTIVISION'S FAULTS. I am sick of RB/HMX fanboys treating these guys as if they were the patron saints of video games. HMX/EA has failed the PS3 users out there by shipping us a substandard version. Something that I'd expect from EA but not HMX. However ultimately they were the ones who didn't get the issue resolved before the game shipped.

[nick585]

I'm sorry but companies compete. Point in case, Burger King and MacDonalds, NHL08 and NHL 2K8, Burnout and Need for Speed. It's how the industry works and it's not like this is the first time something like this has happened.

Also for the record I am sorry to hear about your kids losing their Christmas present.

[SoulScreme]

Oh for crying out loud, return the game, spend the cash on something to untie your panties, and spare us the unnecessary dramatics.

Can't, it's opened software, no returns due to the DMCA.

[admanimal]

Can't, it's opened software, no returns due to the DMCA.

Uhh the DMCA has nothing to do with why you can't return unopened software. That policy was around long before the DMCA.

The DMCA deals with circumventing DRM/encryption in order to illegally distribute copyrighted materials.

[SoulScreme]

Uhh the DMCA has nothing to do with why you can't return unopened software. That policy was around long before the DMCA.

Really? Before 1998? Don't think so. Either way, most stores use the DMCA to defend their actions. Go ahead, take an opened game and see if they don't mention "federal copyright law" or the DMCA by name.

[NoDoubtFan87]

I don't really care who is at fault as long as both of them get over themselves and release the PS3 Patch.

[SoulScreme]

Uhh the DMCA has nothing to do with why you can't return unopened software. That policy was around long before the DMCA.

The DMCA deals with circumventing DRM/encryption in order to illegally distribute copyrighted materials.

He he, wrong. The DMCA has many parts that deal with many subjects related to copyrighted materials.

[JackBNimble]

I'm sorry but companies compete. Point in case, Burger King and MacDonalds, NHL08 and NHL 2K8, Burnout and Need for Speed. It's how the industry works and it's not like this is the first time something like this has happened.

Also for the record I am sorry to hear about your kids losing their Christmas present.

You make a good point ,companies do compete.But for each game you mentioned,you never had to buy a seperate controller to play thoughs games did you?

And can you tell me if this isn't the first time this has happened, then when did it happen before.Because I sure have never seen anything like this happen and I've been a gamer since the dawn of PONG.(excluding activision locking out 3rd party periphs with GH2)

[admanimal]

Really? Before 1998? Don't think so. Either way, most stores use the DMCA to defend their actions. Go ahead, take an opened game and see if they don't mention "federal copyright law" or the DMCA by name.

Well people at game stores are not exactly the brightest...there is absolutely nothing in any federal law against you attempting to return a piece of software or the store accepting it. It's just a matter of store policy. The only time it's illegal is if you make a copy of it first and then return it. And even then it's only breaking the DMCA if you had to circumvent some kind of copy protection in order to do that.

[admanimal]

He he, wrong. The DMCA has many parts that deal with many subjects related to copyrighted materials.

Of course it does, the entire thing is about copyrighted materials....specifically about how it is illegal to circumvent copy protection schemes. That's not the same as returning opened software to a store.

[Xero314]

Starting this thread just helped me prove my own point. HMX says "hey we got the patch, we sent it over, we are the good guys." They start a war, and make everyone hate the other side to the point where all of these kids hate GH3 so much, they will buy another guitar from HMX and boycott all activision going forward. More HMX sales, less Activision sales. All of this is being done at the EXACT same time they are having horrible hardware failure rates, but we are all to busy trashing their competitor the hardware problems are on the back shelf. This is sounding like a great corporate strategy more and more.

I know, who would have thought that actually trying to put out a patch that your users want would be a good strategy. I always thought that tying up your product with vendor lock-in was the only way to make it in business. Just goes to show you that the tried and true practices don't always work out.

Oh and sometimes being a ***** to your customers gets your burnt.

[espher]

Can't, it's opened software, no returns due to the DMCA.


Luckily, I have these items wrapped up for Christmas, so they are both factory sealed. I am returning my Rock Band bundle and Guitar Hero 3 to Best Buy on Christmas Eve. I am officially out of this genre until these companies can realize that FULL compatibility is the only solution (refer to the steering wheels for different racing games referenced in these forums.)

Ten chars.

Edit: http://grep.law.harvard.edu/articles/03/10/30/1034215.shtml

Cheers.

[notoriousgop89]

I don't understand why you can't play with 3 players... I know that for PS3 users this has to be hard and HMX should be doing something to correct this, but for now, there's not much to do. It was wrong for gaming sites to tout compatibility without testing, but HMX didn;t falsely advertise, they did. Instead of returing a great game that your family will have fun with, why not keep it and wait for this to be fixed or for someone to create a homebrew fix (or a compatible 3rd party controller).

[nick585]

You make a good point ,companies do compete.But for each game you mentioned,you never had to buy a seperate controller to play thoughs games did you?

And can you tell me if this isn't the first time this has happened, then when did it happen before.Because I sure have never seen anything like this happen and I've been a gamer since the dawn of PONG.(excluding activision locking out 3rd party periphs with GH2)

I agree with what you say to but it's kind of like the next level of compitition( yeah I know my spelling suks it's 1:30 here and I'm tired) if you could screw over your competitors and make money while doing that wouldn't you?

[logicalnoise]

You make a good point ,companies do compete.But for each game you mentioned,you never had to buy a seperate controller to play thoughs games did you?

And can you tell me if this isn't the first time this has happened, then when did it happen before.Because I sure have never seen anything like this happen and I've been a gamer since the dawn of PONG.(excluding activision locking out 3rd party periphs with GH2)

it happened back when activision(old activsion) sued colecovision because coleco vision could play atari 2600 games out of teh box. Activsion lost the suit because colecovision didn't steal any designs or code from activision to do it. THis is the major reason actvision hasn't and won't sue HMX over this compatibility issue. Instead they are using leverage with sony to force HMX to eitehr pay up or contunue supposedly getting bad PR. What's sad is I was born in 1985 and only played games since 1991 and still knew about this.

[Frederf]

Yay, the OP just won a free piece-by-piece Frederf post dissection!


Rock band marketed their game as a four player experience, and made it very well known that the guitar hero 3 controller would be compatible as a bass.

Harmonix et al actually did not make it very well known about that particular compatibility. That little tid bit snowballed in the fan/media arena. As mad as it seems, it's possible that Harmonix had no way of having a clue one way or the other until the GH3 retail release. I'm relatively confidence that HMX never uttered anything about the compatibility we all wish for.

However Harmonix is extremely guilty of keeping mum about what it had to know was a schism between the perceived product and the actual product.


Before you trash Activision for trying to make money, stop and think of where you work (or your parents) and they are probably trying to make money also, funny how that works for most families.

I can and most certainly do make the distinction between a company using fair and ethical business practices in the pursuit of profits and a company using unfair and unethical business practices in the pursuit of profits. By your same logic it's fine to use anabolic steroids to win an Olympic event since both the drug user and the non drug user are both "trying to win a gold medal."


Harmonix, if they are charging you a fee or whatever an "agreement" is, that is just too bad, you HAVE to do it.

No. They don't. No company is ethically obligated to fall on another company's sword just to provide a benefit to the customer beyond what was promised.


This is Christmas, and you marketed your game for Christmas and as a four player experience.

Yes, a four player experience with three controllers in the box. The full functionality of the game wasn't in the box. This is nothing new. Guitar Hero III has cooperative play and there's only one guitar in that bundle.


Instead, you have fingerpointing and companies that want you to have 6 giant guitar controllers sitting around your living room.

The only company (singular) that would not want every guitar controller to work with every guitar-simulating entertainment software is Activision. Harmonix would gladly have that situation.

I can understand your frustration with the industry as a whole, but I think I can safely say if more companies were like HMX, the industry would be a heck of a lot more friendly.


All the while xbox 360 owners can sit back and laugh at my waste of money and space.

Truthfully, I'm an Xbox 360 owner and I'm outraged at this. Also the RockBand-LesPaul is pretty much the only snafu we don't share with you. I can't use my Stratocaster on Guitar Hero III just like you. My PS2 guitars don't work anything but the PS2 either, although that's more understandable.


Harmonix, you are on the clock. You have until Christmas Eve to keep my sale or this is going back to the store. Do you think it is unfair Activision wants a financial agreement from you to get your patch released? Sorry, you should've got it right the first time like you did for the xbox 360 owners.

Actually, yes we think it's unfair. No controller manufacturer in my personal knowledge has had the nerve to even attempt to extort money out of software manufacturers for functionality, at least not 3rd parties like this. One company to blindly eat the unfair cost of another for something that's been traditionally free is too much to ask.

Harmonix would completely agree with you on having got it right the first time. They would have love to then, they would love to now, unfortunately they were prevented by forces beyond their control.

Ultimately it's up to you to decide if the product justifies the expense. You can argue that the product is needlessly undermined by greed and lack of cooperation among vendors (and I'll go right along with you on that) but the justification lies strictly with you.

[Ventura]

it happened back when activision(old activsion) sued colecovision because coleco vision could play atari 2600 games out of teh box. Activsion lost the suit because colecovision didn't steal any designs or code from activision to do it.

Huge difference this time around mate. Activision didn't make the 2600, but they *did* make the Les Paul controller. And that gives them the right to determine how it's used.

Sorry.

[logicalnoise]

Huge difference this time around mate. Activision didn't make the 2600, but they *did* make the Les Paul controller. And that gives them the right to determine how it's used.

Sorry.

How is it different? But your right it was atari, they made game cartridges). Theswe cartridges were deisgned solely for atari 2600. Coleco vision comes out and is more powerful and better and has a special slot to play 2600 titles. This was achieved with their own ingenuity nothing was stolen from activision. It's exactly what HMX did with the patch. They had a problem and fixed with their own code. Legal precedent says HMX is in the right. Unfortunately Sony is the one holding cards on teh patch being released and they claim to be neutral at this point which to me is hilarious since they obliged activision's requests in the first place.

[DesiredFX]

This is the first sane thread I've read this evening.

I'm glad I found this post. If you think it's sane, then I know better than to waste my time reading it.

[S1ashRev]

Starting this thread just helped me prove my own point. HMX says "hey we got the patch, we sent it over, we are the good guys." They start a war, and make everyone hate the other side to the point where all of these kids hate GH3 so much, they will buy another guitar from HMX and boycott all activision going forward. More HMX sales, less Activision sales. All of this is being done at the EXACT same time they are having horrible hardware failure rates, but we are all to busy trashing their competitor the hardware problems are on the back shelf. This is sounding like a great corporate strategy more and more.

Not to be mean but you're a paranoid schizohprenic conspiracy theorist aren't you?:confused:

Edit: I don't think GH3 is losing any sales from this. The only way they are losing sales is because they are sold out everywhere.

[REICHLEIN]

I have to agree with you. I am in the middle of a fight with today's Corporate America. It's sad when we have come so far in this country that the only way for corporations to make money is the dishonest way. There is no way Harmonix could have known that the GHIII controlers wouldn't work with Rock Band. Let's take a look back through history here, and please feel free to correct any of my mistakes. Harmonix was the orriginal devoloper of Guitar Hero, along with Red Octane making the actual controlers. Harmonix was then bought by MTV Games, thereby severing all ties with Red Octane. The only thing they could go by was the previous Guitar Hero controlers that were made for the PS2, which is the standard that they used for Rock Band on the PS3. It is my guess, and I may be wrong on this one, that Activision saw this and had Neversoft, the current developer of the GH titles, change the button configuration (i.e. green = X, red = square, etc.). Also, please remember that Red Octane was the company that originaly designed and built the GH controlers. The Fender Strat is Harmonix's first attempt at a controller, and with anything like that, problems are to be expected out the gate. I am also very impressed by them in the remedy of that. Most companys will try to deny an issue for as long as possible, and then if enough problems pop up, they take care of it. EA and Harmonix were on the ball right out the gate. Hats off.

[Majic19]

Not to be mean but you're a paranoid schizohprenic conspiracy theorist aren't you?:confused:

Edit: I don't think GH3 is losing any sales from this. The only way they are losing sales is because they are sold out everywhere.

I know they lost one sale. I was planning on buying GH3 to go along with RB for Christmas. Now, even if they release the patch, I will not buy GH3. I will wait for RB stand alone peripherals or some other 3rd party. I also put CoD4 back on the shelf as well as Spiderman, Friend or Foe. Not that it amounts to much, but that's $200 of my money they wont get. I will not condone Activision's extortion attempt.

And FYI, I was at Best Buy and Costco today and both places had stacks of GH3 (XBOX and Ps2 versions) lying around. At least 20 each copies at both locations. They only ad 2 RB's at Costco and NO PS3 RB's at Best Buy.

[Ventura]

I know they lost one sale. I was planning on buying GH3 to go along with RB for Christmas.

Make that two sales.

I'd have bought a GH3 bundle to use the Les Paul controller with Rock Band by now too.

[WiseOldUnicorn]

I am officially out of this genre until these companies can realize that FULL compatibility is the only solution (refer to the steering wheels for different racing games referenced in these forums.)

Thing is, Harmonix DOES realize that. They've made it perfectly clear that any game developers who want to use their controllers are welcome to do so, and said they'll work with them to make it happen. They've tried to patch Rock Band to make the Les Paul work. It's Activision that's stopping them because they want GH guitars to work with GH only, and vice versa. Activision is the one that has "Only authorized for use with Guitar Hero" all over the place.


Do you think it is unfair Activision wants a financial agreement from you to get your patch released?

How could anyone possibly think it IS fair for another company to want money (or whatever) for Harmonix to be allowed to patch THEIR OWN game?


And no, I do not think that your stand alone guitar is a solution, I am not sinking more money into this disorganized genre nor do I want to tell my kids on Christmas day why only 3 people can play and no one can play on the black guitar.

No offense meant, but as a kid I was taught the joy of sharing and taking turns.