HMXJohnlok's Xbox Leaderboard Score for Vocals

[DeusTrinitas]

HMXJohnlok,

I was wondering if you could please tell us how you were able to achieve a high enough score on vocals to be #2 on the Xbox Leaderboards, especially considering that the game suffers from a major software issue that produces substantial microphone lag due to vocal input not being processed quickly enough. This issue, by the way, is one that has yet to be officially addressed, though it has a stickied thread (http://community.rockband.com/vbforum/showthread.php?t=10861) with fifteen pages dedicated to it over in the tech support forum.

Perhaps if I didn't have to attempt to sing everything a half-second to one second early on Expert in order to get the full amount of points for each phrase, I might be able to achieve top ten glory as well and join your illustrious ranks. As it stands right now, I guess I'm forced to wait among Harmonix's legions of other fans for a patch to fix the problem. Such a patch would make a fine Christmas or pre-Christmas gift, don't you think?

[the_spike]

I never had any lag on anything.

[espher]

I never had any lag on anything.

I agree with this comment.

[DeusTrinitas]

I never had any lag on anything.

Have you ever gold-starred a song on Expert vocals? If you haven't, try that, achieve that, and then come back and tell me you've never had any lag on anything.

[Gamemakerman]

Have you ever gold-starred a song on Expert vocals? If you haven't, try that, achieve that, and then come back and tell me you've never had any lag on anything.

No lag doesnt equal 5 gold stars on Expert. I have had none lag issues with my HDTV and Surround sound setup, the input is clear and on time. Me, my friends and all i can remember who has tried singing has never complained even one time about there being lag issues in the game.

As much as people blame the game, it could be them having their AV equipment badly synced to each other.

[espher]

Have you ever gold-starred a song on Expert vocals? If you haven't, try that, achieve that, and then come back and tell me you've never had any lag on anything.

I fail to see how my being terrible at hitting pitch on all but the easiest songs means I have lag. :p

[G_tarRoCK3R]

Have you ever gold-starred a song on Expert vocals? If you haven't, try that, achieve that, and then come back and tell me you've never had any lag on anything.

Don't be hating because HMXjohnlok is a better vocalist than you...

[Dabog666]

Have you ever gold-starred a song on Expert vocals? If you haven't, try that, achieve that, and then come back and tell me you've never had any lag on anything.

Not being able to get gold stars on expert has absolutely nothing to do with lag, some people are not able to do it because of a little thing called ability. By your logic, if I can not cook fine cuisine, it's my oven's fault.

[HMXJohnlok]

The high lag some people are experiencing is not inherent to the vocals system. It has to do with certain TV/Audio setups. The sticky exists to help people with those setups mitigate that problem, and is by means an issue that exists across the board.

And as for vocal tips... just keep practicing ;)

[MrE]

Not being able to get gold stars on expert has absolutely nothing to do with lag, some people are not able to do it because of a little thing called ability. By your logic, if I can not cook fine cuisine, it's my oven's fault.

QFT
___________

[jq715861]

Don't hate the player. Hate the game.

[CollegeDropouts]

I really think it's funny how all the "I don't have problems, my stuff is perfect" people here are playing in difficulties it wouldn't even show.

Example: You've been racing professionally for about 3 years now, but a new car comes out you HAVE to have. You purchase an automobile for racing, and the car salesman say "This ride drives perfectly". You think "alright, because I am the operator of this vehicle, I know what I can do, if this guy says this works, it works. Let's do this"

Your first race is against a toy car, and you destroy it.

Your next race is agasint a kid on a bike, and you kill him.

Your next race is against a Ford Probe, and you win by a hair.

Your next race is against another professional vehicle, and you can't even start your car.

Bottom line, you should be able to hold your own all the way through. Yea, you can beat easy things (I could molest drums on easy and medium with my TRASH kit, because it doesnt need to register more than 1 beat a second. Just like I can molest guitar on easy, and vocals... so on and so on) but when you attempt to push the game to what it is SUPPOSED to be able to do on higher difficulties, that's where you get failure.

I've beat the game on Expert vocals, and I can tell you right now, I did it by singing EVERY verse early, dropping and raising every pitch early, and speaking every line early. Anybody who can tell me they didn't, I challenge you for proof.

[Sonci]

Your next race is against a kid on a bike, and you kill him.

WOAH! Was it a Twisted Metal battle?!

[DeusTrinitas]

The high lag some people are experiencing is not inherent to the vocals system. It has to do with certain TV/Audio setups. The sticky exists to help people with those setups mitigate that problem, and is by means an issue that exists across the board.

And as for vocal tips... just keep practicing ;)

If it has to do with certain TV/Audio setups, then why is that on the LCD TV setting within the game, drums and guitars are perfectly synched with no lag, yet when I adjust the settings to attempt to alleviate the mic lag, the drums and guitars become out of synch?

In addition, why is it that when I sing into the microphone, it takes a half-second to one second before it even registers on screen that I sang anything? Please explain to me how that is a problem with my setup which is nothing more than a Sony Bravia LCD TV, a Xbox 360 directly jacked into the set with an HDMI cable, and no external sound system.

[espher]

I do expert vocals. :o

Not perfectly, but I hit 97-98% on the upper tier stuff in my range.

[DeusTrinitas]

I've beat the game on Expert vocals, and I can tell you right now, I did it by singing EVERY verse early, dropping and raising every pitch early, and speaking every line early. Anybody who can tell me they didn't, I challenge you for proof.

Amen, brother. It's high time that people start realizing that you have to play on Expert for this to become extremely problematic. I guarantee that over half of you who have previously posted in this topic have not played vocals on Expert.

[Apples]

I have gold starred songs on expert, including a couple 100%'s.

At first I thought I was experience this, then I figured out I was just singing behind the music. Once I learned to improve my timing, it improved my scores dramatically.

[CowboyGP]

If this is truly a game issue as you suggest, rather than a problem with your particular AV setup it means that everyone is in the same boat. Hence, HMXJohnlok is better able or more talented than you at mentally calibrating for lag.

I tend to think it's more likely that your particular AV setup isn't as compatable as one would like.

Do you have a regular old TV in the house? If so, you could hook your console up to that and try Expert vocals to test if the lag is truly in the game or related to your sound system.

Won't solve the frustration, but it'll narrow down the problem so you know what needs tweaking - the game or the sound system you're using.

[Lucent Beam]

I cleared the game on Expert vocals, and I had no problem with lag whatsoever.
I used to be somewhere in the 70's as far as rank goes, but I stopping playing vocals so I've probably dropped a lot since then. And I have a lot of bad scores on many of the songs on Expert because it was the first time I had heard many of them, haha.
But, I've never had any any any problem with lag on any difficulty.

[yeahreally]

Speaking of which... HMXJohnlok: when are you going to be number one on the vocal charts again? I'm tired of seeing CowShark's name there. No offense CowShark. :)

[Transbrak]

i beat it on expert vocals getting a few gold stars and never noticed lag at all.

edit: oh and if it's helpful i'm playing on a sony hdtv rear projection, my 360 is hooked to it using the cables that came with it to the component ports in the back and i have an optical cable coming off the back of the 360 to a onkyo 6.1 surround system

[Thee Production]

I've beaten the solo vocal tour on expert and gotten some gold stars, I didn't notice any lag at all either.

[Frederf]

There does seem to be some time delay between my voice and the pitch arrow fading in and changing height. It doesn't hurt me much now because I can only hit the notes pitch-wise so regularly and playing on Med/Hard.

The game really encourages "pre-singing" to get up to pitch and have the game register well before the green line hits the target.

[Mistersh0w]

The high lag some people are experiencing is not inherent to the vocals system. It has to do with certain TV/Audio setups. The sticky exists to help people with those setups mitigate that problem, and is by means an issue that exists across the board.

And as for vocal tips... just keep practicing ;)

This is a problem A LOT of us are having! Are you saying that HMX is NOT looking for a fix for this issue? The sticky in the tech forum does not help "mitigate" the problem AT ALL! This issue is going unresolved and we need answers!

I myself would like to get onto the leaderboards for singing, as I am a singer. But with this horrible lag problem, I can't even attempt it...

[espher]

I'm not sure how exactly they can fix lag with certain setups if they've already provided manual calibration and a combination of manual calibration and removing things in the middle is not solving the problem.

What, exactly, do you expect them to do?

[HeXcoda]

There is no "fix" for the facts of life concerning HDTVs and lag and calibration. Go calibrate. The tools are provided. They've already done what they have to do to ensure you have a smooth experience.

"Lag" is usually two factors:
1. Your set isn't calibrated properly.
2. You've gotten into the habit of singing a split second too late.

Correct both and try again.

[davidshek]

This is a problem A LOT of us are having! Are you saying that HMX is NOT looking for a fix for this issue? The sticky in the tech forum does not help "mitigate" the problem AT ALL! This issue is going unresolved and we need answers!

Did you even read what he said? He said the problem is not with the game itself. The problem is with your TV/Audio setup. Therefore, how could HMX be looking for a fix? Do you expect them to come to your house and troubleshoot your home stereo setup for you? Get real... Be glad they're at least on these forums trying to help you with your audio problems. Notice the keyword there is your audio problems. Not theirs.

On a related note, I have a 65" Samsung DLP, connected to my 360 via component AV cables. The optical audio out from the 360 goes into my 7.1 receiver, and I have absolutely no vocal lag whatsoever.

[Frederf]

Um, I notice the time delay and I don't have a HD TV nor a stereo amplifier. When I hook up a NES to this TV and press the jump button he freaking jumps RIGHT NOW. When I hit a button on the Stratocaster controller it shows up right now. When I put a pitch through the microphone the game responds with a small but noticeable delay. It's not the end of the world for me (at least till I become an expert singer?) but it's not my A/V setup.

[Bluepai]

If it's a technical issue, clearly it's already been answered... If not...

People need to realize, they're singing to a machine. Therefore, sing almost robotically to this game to succeed. If you consistently swoop or drop to begin your notes, STOP and hit them with a straight pitch. If you consistently swoop or drop to end your notes, STOP and hit them with a straight pitch. And of course, it's already been mentioned, singing before the phrase/word even begins is a great way to start this habit.

I can also provide one other tip that most others don't mention.

Don't enunciate your consonants very harsh. Think about it. If you're singing "Cat" and you REALLY enunciate the "C" and "T", those are times that you aren't hitting a pitch with the "A". Trust me, it does wonders.

And if anyone doubts my credentials, I'm the guy who just finally kicked Cowshark off of the #1 spot on the vocal leaderboards (for now at least). If you have questions, my live name is Bluepai, lemme know.

[dxduece]

I've beaten expert vocals (gold starred a few) and never had any lag issues.

[vulgarmessiah]

I do have lag issues and it can't possibly be my setup because I use the exact same setup for SingStar....and guess what? No lag issues there!!!

[WiseOldUnicorn]

Yeah, I've cleared solo vocals on Expert, gold-starred a few songs, have a few top 20 scores on the leaderboards...and I've never seen a bit of lag except when I tried to use the XBL headset. Using the RB mic, it works just fine.

I don't get how people expect Harmonix to be able to "fix" it when it's obviously not the game's fault, or everyone would be having the same problems. Even if they DID come out with a patch that would somehow fix the lag problems some people have, what if it screwed things up for the lagless people?

[WildBillKickoff]

My lag is set up perfectly for guitars/drums, and there is a noticable processing delay of about 100-150 milliseconds before the pitch is processed and played back. I have no A/V components, simply a regular 26" LCD TV with the 360 plugged directly into the TV using the HD cables that came with the system.

The issue I have with it is that if I calibrate for vocals, then guitar and drums become unplayable. If I sing when the game tells me when the game is calibrated for guitar/drums, my "awesome" ratings turn into "OKs".

I'm currently top 20 on XBL, 7 gold stars, 5 FCs, and I did it all by singing about a 1/4 second early. I have experimented with many different calibrations, but because of the processing delay, the only thing that works consistently for me is singing slightly ahead of the band.

[raregamer]

Tbey hum the song in tune thats how. You dont actually need to sing the words.

[SSPWOLF]

A different perspective...

I'm not a "singer". As in I don't do the "Do-Re-Mi" thing and I can't tell you what "key" i'm singing in. However, I'm a musician.. and I've been the lead singer for many punk and hardcore bands. I've also played the drums for 21 years. I know music. I know timing. I know rythym.

I was STOKED to sing in Rock Band. Day one.. I was gonna be THE singer. First thing I noticed: LAG. In order for me to sing any song on medium I gotta sing an 8th note early on every line or else I miss the pitch. I was MAD. Tried calibrating... HELL NO, that didn't work. Stupid game. Stupid Developers. Stupid hardware.


Then.. my wife asks to play with me. She picks up the microphone and is singing the same songs I was on the same T.V./game/microphone/room as me... SHE isn't singing an 8th note early. She's singing perfectly on time with the music and doing just fine.


Tough as it is for me to admit... I'm just LESS talented than her on vocals. She gets great scores singing on time. I've even noticed that if she doesn't know the words to the songs she comes in half a beat late sometimes while she's reading ahead.

Me.. if I DON'T sing half a beat early.. I don't see my "pitch arrow" and I don't know where I'm supposed to be.

It wasn't my ears or the game throwing me off.. it was my eyes. Cause now, I can 100% many songs on vocals.. as long as I don't look at the screen. ;)

[davidshek]

I was STOKED to sing in Rock Band. Day one.. I was gonna be THE singer. First thing I noticed: LAG. In order for me to sing any song on medium I gotta sing an 8th note early on every line or else I miss the pitch. I was MAD. Tried calibrating... HELL NO, that didn't work. Stupid game. Stupid Developers. Stupid hardware.

Then.. my wife asks to play with me. She picks up the microphone and is singing the same songs I was on the same T.V./game/microphone/room as me... SHE isn't singing an 8th note early. She's singing perfectly on time with the music and doing just fine.


It's funny that you mention that, because I encountered much the same thing when I was trying to sing, and then when the singer from my band tried it, she was doing much much better than I was. So I had her sit and listen to me trying to sing a few songs on RB and she told me exactly what the problem was...It wasn't the TV, it wasn't the A/V setup, it was my voice.

Not that I wasn't hitting the pitches, I was. But I wasn't hitting them right at the beginning of the words. Most people who aren't trained singers actually will have this same problem and most likely you will not be able to hear yourself doing this. It's natural for your larynx to start making the sound of the words and THEN your voice comes up to the pitch you're trying to hit. Making your vocal chords hit the correct pitch at the instant you start making sound is VERY difficult and takes a LOT of practice.

Ever since she pointed that out, I've been working on making my voice hit the right pitch as soon as I start singing, instead of a split-second later. That split-second of your throat correcting itself will seem like lag in the game, but really it's lag in your throat :)

And here I thought singing in RB was going to be the easiest of all the career paths, but apparently I'm gonna have to practice that too :(

[SSPWOLF]

What an excellent point David.

I can even back you up with a PRIME example. In "War Pigs" when Ozzy does his "darknesscallING" bit... he switches his pitch super fast. I can get 100% on that song, but upon scrutiny I can't switch pitches anywhere near as fast as he can. Guess that's why he's Ozzy.

[Billtvshow]

If it's a technical issue, clearly it's already been answered... If not...

People need to realize, they're singing to a machine. Therefore, sing almost robotically to this game to succeed. If you consistently swoop or drop to begin your notes, STOP and hit them with a straight pitch. If you consistently swoop or drop to end your notes, STOP and hit them with a straight pitch. And of course, it's already been mentioned, singing before the phrase/word even begins is a great way to start this habit.

I can also provide one other tip that most others don't mention.

Don't enunciate your consonants very harsh. Think about it. If you're singing "Cat" and you REALLY enunciate the "C" and "T", those are times that you aren't hitting a pitch with the "A". Trust me, it does wonders.

And if anyone doubts my credentials, I'm the guy who just finally kicked Cowshark off of the #1 spot on the vocal leaderboards (for now at least). If you have questions, my live name is Bluepai, lemme know.

What he said. Watched him just flat out storm the leaderboard yesterday while I was mulling around outside the Top 10. Those are good tips.

[WildBillKickoff]

It's funny that you mention that, because I encountered much the same thing when I was trying to sing, and then when the singer from my band tried it, she was doing much much better than I was. So I had her sit and listen to me trying to sing a few songs on RB and she told me exactly what the problem was...It wasn't the TV, it wasn't the A/V setup, it was my voice.

Not that I wasn't hitting the pitches, I was. But I wasn't hitting them right at the beginning of the words. Most people who aren't trained singers actually will have this same problem and most likely you will not be able to hear yourself doing this. It's natural for your larynx to start making the sound of the words and THEN your voice comes up to the pitch you're trying to hit. Making your vocal chords hit the correct pitch at the instant you start making sound is VERY difficult and takes a LOT of practice.

Ever since she pointed that out, I've been working on making my voice hit the right pitch as soon as I start singing, instead of a split-second later. That split-second of your throat correcting itself will seem like lag in the game, but really it's lag in your throat :)

And here I thought singing in RB was going to be the easiest of all the career paths, but apparently I'm gonna have to practice that too :(

I understand what you're saying. I am with you in that for many folks, this may be the case.

However, that is one of the things I'm already cognizant of, I was a choir singer for 17 years growing up, and one of the things I learned during that time was to strongly and accurately hit the very beginning of a pitch. I'll go back and double check, especially paying attention to that aspect of my vocals and see if that really is the difference. If it is, you'll get a big mea culpa from me tomorrow in this thread.

[dfjdejulio]

I never had any lag on anything.
At home, I play on a purely analog NTSC TV. No high def. No digital processing. And... no lag.

[Darkhorse4life]

The high lag some people are experiencing is not inherent to the vocals system. It has to do with certain TV/Audio setups. The sticky exists to help people with those setups mitigate that problem, and is by means an issue that exists across the board.

And as for vocal tips... just keep practicing

Johnl0k is kind of my hero!

In regards to the above posts, a few comments:

1. In regards to the person saying "Gold Star as song on Expert then come back to me" and the people responding "What does score have to do with it?", the guy wasn't trying to be a jerk (at least I don't think), what he is saying is when people are at that level of play they are much more sensitive to the audio and video delay in a game.

A perfect example (and I'm not trying to sound pompous) is that whenever I go to different friends' houses to play a Rock Band or Guitar Hero, many times we need to re-calibrate. Now, before that point, my friends didn't notice a difference. Why? Because they weren't trying to Gold Star a song on guitar in the last tier ;). When precision timing becomes that much more important, your sensitivity to how "on" or "off" the notes are becomes much higher.

Let's put it this way, I sometimes get frustrated that Rock Band only allows me to calibrate in 5 ms intervals because I currently have mine set to Audio delay of 30ms and Video delay of 10ms, but it really should be closer to 28ms and 11ms.

2. When doing the vocals, I've noticed that it takes me a second to get on pitch with the game. This isn't really a problem with the audio setup or the microphone, this purely comes from my (lack of!) ability to hit a tone out of nowhere without being flat at the start of the word. There is some musical term for this but unfortunately my brain doesn't remember far back enough to middle school chorus to remember what it is ;).

The fact is if you want to be come better at this game when it comes to vocals, do what Johnl0k said, just keep practicing ;) Maybe someday you too can be #2 on the leaderboards ;).

[HMXJohnlok]

Johnl0k is kind of my hero!

In regards to the above posts, a few comments:

1. In regards to the person saying "Gold Star as song on Expert then come back to me" and the people responding "What does score have to do with it?", the guy wasn't trying to be a jerk (at least I don't think), what he is saying is when people are at that level of play they are much more sensitive to the audio and video delay in a game.

A perfect example (and I'm not trying to sound pompous) is that whenever I go to different friends' houses to play a Rock Band or Guitar Hero, many times we need to re-calibrate. Now, before that point, my friends didn't notice a difference. Why? Because they weren't trying to Gold Star a song on guitar in the last tier ;). When precision timing becomes that much more important, your sensitivity to how "on" or "off" the notes are becomes much higher.

Let's put it this way, I sometimes get frustrated that Rock Band only allows me to calibrate in 5 ms intervals because I currently have mine set to Audio delay of 30ms and Video delay of 10ms, but it really should be closer to 28ms and 11ms.

2. When doing the vocals, I've noticed that it takes me a second to get on pitch with the game. This isn't really a problem with the audio setup or the microphone, this purely comes from my (lack of!) ability to hit a tone out of nowhere without being flat at the start of the word. There is some musical term for this but unfortunately my brain doesn't remember far back enough to middle school chorus to remember what it is ;).

The fact is if you want to be come better at this game when it comes to vocals, do what Johnl0k said, just keep practicing ;) Maybe someday you too can be #2 on the leaderboards ;).

I actually addressed some of this in a private message reply to the original poster. He asked me to clarify a few points, so I tried to - what follows is a sort of down-and-dirty discussion of calibration and high-level vocals:


There is a certain level of "built-in" latency that is unavoidable and exists on all consoles. As a result, singing a little bit early and extending durations just a little bit will help you score a little bit better on expert. That being said, it's not enough for most people to even notice.

Each piece of hardware has a different built-in delay; for example, the microphone (and I'm just picking numbers out of thin air for this example) might have a built in 75ms delay, the guitar might have 25ms, and the drums might be 29-30 ms or something. You should always calibrate to your guitar or drums, since the microphone will always be a bit off.

Compounded with weird HD setups and a slight extra delay on the vocal side, it can be very tricky to calibrate.

The "LCD" TV and other default settings are just rough default estimations - it will set you to a specific video and audio latency compensation setting. It doesn't auto-calibrate all of your peripherals, it selects a number across the board.

If you're experiencing severe lag (this is a known issue that is more prominent on the PS3) as a result of your TV's configuration, try to see if your TV has a "games" calibration setting built-in. Also, you may want to read the sticky on mic latency a bit more, too, to see if there are other tips that might help you.

Hopefully that is somewhat helpful. Some of the other developers here could give you a more technical response, but that's the best I can do for you without consulting them ;D

[Electric_Zen]

I keep failing on "I'm So Sick".

This isn't a lag issue, but damnit, Harmonix, fix this!

[LongDarkBlues]

The high lag some people are experiencing is not inherent to the vocals system. It has to do with certain TV/Audio setups. The sticky exists to help people with those setups mitigate that problem, and is by means an issue that exists across the board.

That is just not true. Back when I had functioning instruments, people who were actual drummers played the drums with no problems - you just can't play off beat and have it work. So the drums were synced up perfectly. When I would sit back and watch while others played, where the lyrics hit the line was way behind the audio track playing. It doesn't make any sense that it's an A/V problem considering that the drums would be perfectly in time in relation to the on-screen notes while the vocals were almost a half-beat off in relation to the on-screen notes. How could that not be the software decoding/grading the vocals? Even if you don't look at the screen and know the song by heart and sing along with the audio playing, it's still reading you as being late. The only way around this I've found is to pretend that the vocal bar is in 2 words to the right, which of course sounds terrible to be singing so off beat.

If all the other instruments sync up fine, and only the vocals are off, I cannot fathom how this could not be a software issue. Unless maybe it's the mic cable transferring data too slowly? The USB hub? Blaming the user for not knowing how to set up thier A/V is totally off here. I played with the lag settings and to get the mic to register properly you had to adjust it so far that the rest of the instruments became way-past-unplayable. It works for a solo vocal tour, but is useless for a full band game.

The problem here, and the reason it doesn't seem an 'across the board issue,' is that most people don't understand what is meant by 'lag' in this instance, or are playing on Easy/Medium where the game is forgiving enough that it doesn't really matter.

[SSPWOLF]

I keep failing on "I'm So Sick".

This isn't a lag issue, but damnit, Harmonix, fix this!


Haha!

My wife hates this song, the drastic pitch changes with silence inbetween are murder. I keep trying to tell her to "cheat" by making noise through the whole thing... but she signs every song the way it's supposed to be sung, which means she's doing it right...

but also means she isn't going to be on any leaderboards either.

[LongDarkBlues]

the microphone will always be a bit off.
Oh, well - yeah, never mind then.

[HMXJohnlok]

To clarify, there are two separate issues here. One is inherent "lag" in the vocals system. It is so slight that most people won't even notice it. The other that I'm talking about is with certain TV setups where it can actually be as far off as 500 ms or more. *that* is the known issue, and I think people are arguing back and forth because one side doesn't have the huge lag issue, while some of the other side does.

[DeusTrinitas]

Johnl0k is kind of my hero!

In regards to the above posts, a few comments:

1. In regards to the person saying "Gold Star as song on Expert then come back to me" and the people responding "What does score have to do with it?", the guy wasn't trying to be a jerk (at least I don't think), what he is saying is when people are at that level of play they are much more sensitive to the audio and video delay in a game.

Thank you for pointing this out.

[DeusTrinitas]

To clarify, there are two separate issues here. One is inherent "lag" in the vocals system. It is so slight that most people won't even notice it. The other that I'm talking about is with certain TV setups where it can actually be as far off as 500 ms or more. *that* is the known issue, and I think people are arguing back and forth because one side doesn't have the huge lag issue, while some of the other side does.

The question then becomes, Johnlok, whether or not everyone who does have the huge lag issue has a TV setup that is causing the issue. Where the line in the sand is drawn is that some of us say there is no way that all of these people with the huge lag issue simply have a TV or audio problem, while others say that a TV or audio problem is the only possible answer.

[SSPWOLF]

To clarify, there are two separate issues here. One is inherent "lag" in the vocals system. It is so slight that most people won't even notice it. The other that I'm talking about is with certain TV setups where it can actually be as far off as 500 ms or more. *that* is the known issue, and I think people are arguing back and forth because one side doesn't have the huge lag issue, while some of the other side does.

You shot yourself in the foot by even testifying that there's inherit latency (lag) in the USB microphone. People are going to fixate on that.

To extrapolate though, there's inherit latency in all audio equipment. Running Pro Tools on dedicated hardware I get minor latency. It's not enough to be perceptible in measurements of say... 64th notes at 120bpm... (to use an example outside of the already stated milliseconds one) but it exists, and we're talking about a 30 thousand dollar recording set up here.

The amount of native latency in the Rock Band USB microphone / game engine is so small that it would be acceptable to any pro musician for live sound.

That, of course, it just the native game latency. We aren't talking about home theatre lag.

[LongDarkBlues]

Well, if the lag lies in the A/V setup, why do the rest of the instruments seem to register perfectly in time? I can understand an HDTV displaying the lyrics late, but you can't mistake the beat of the song - you have to play to it in time, regardless of what's on screen so all the instruments seem perfect. How can the drums be in time, and the vocals not? How can that possibly be a set-up issue?

[SSPWOLF]

Well, if the lag lies in the A/V setup, why do the rest of the instruments seem to register perfectly in time? I can understand an HDTV displaying the lyrics late, but you can't mistake the beat of the song - you have to play to it in time, regardless of what's on screen so all the instruments seem perfect. How can the drums be in time, and the vocals not? How can that possibly be a set-up issue?

Because when you play the drums / guitar you don't hear the sound before you play it. You trigger the sound by playing it. Therefore you train yourself to play when you're supposed to.

If you miss three notes in a row you'll eventually start getting them and then you'll get all of them. Your eyes make your brain adjust your hands.


On vocals.. you can HEAR Bon Jovi start singing so you HEAR and SEE the words. So if what you are hearing isn't matching what you are seeing... your brain has further difficulty.


Your AV set up could be lagged 50 ms and you may not notice it. Mine was off by quite a bit and never knew, because I just naturally assumed I was off rythym. My buddy (a hip hop producer) came over and played drums and instantly said "this is off. big time." I was disagreed and "proved" it by playing the same song he was. He laughed at me, and told me to play it with my eyes closed. Turns out.. my system was way off. He callibrated it and it took me about 5 tries to be able to play.. I was missing every note. Now.. I'm used to it again.


reminds me of an old science experiment where they give people glasses that flip what you see upside down. They made the people wear them for two weeks and when they took the glasses off..... the world looked upside down through thier naked eyes.

[Mistersh0w]

My problem is, i'm constantly told that it's MY problem, and it's MY audio/video setup! Well then WHY does Singstar work PERFECTLY FINE on my setup?! There's 100% NO LAG with Singstar on my PS3. But with Rock Band, the lag is so horrible, I can't get high scores on EXPERT! And I'M A SINGER DAMNIT! I've tried EVERY "solution" that has been brought to the board, and none of them work, nor are they a long term solution in any way.

The fact is, the singing portion of the game is UNPLAYABLE on my setup. Is everyone here saying that in order for me to have a 100% working game (by normal latency standards), I have to BUY A NEW A/V SETUP?! Trash my current one and PAY MORE MONEY to duplicate a setup someone here on the board has to "solve" the problem!? Ridiculous! And unacceptable!

[WildBillKickoff]

Johnlok, thanks for clarifying. The minor latency inherent in the equipment was exactly what I was talking about. Hearing that yes, I do indeed just need to sing slightly ahead of the music due to an unavoidable instrument latency is exactly the confirmation I needed so I can stop recalibrating my system.

[SSPWOLF]

My problem is, i'm constantly told that it's MY problem, and it's MY audio/video setup! Well then WHY does Singstar work PERFECTLY FINE on my setup?! There's 100% NO LAG with Singstar on my PS3. But with Rock Band, the lag is so horrible, I can't get high scores on EXPERT! And I'M A SINGER DAMNIT! I've tried EVERY "solution" that has been brought to the board, and none of them work, nor are they a long term solution in any way.

The fact is, the singing portion of the game is UNPLAYABLE on my setup. Is everyone here saying that in order for me to have a 100% working game (by normal latency standards), I have to BUY A NEW A/V SETUP?! Trash my current one and PAY MORE MONEY to duplicate a setup someone here on the board has to "solve" the problem!? Ridiculous! And unacceptable!

No.

They are saying that you should go into the "Manually Calibrate" and toy with it until it works properly.

If for some reason this absolutely does not solve your problem....


Then yes, you will have to go and buy a new A/V set up.

For the same reason that I ABSOLUTELY CANNOT play Never Winter Nights 2 on my laptop. It just is NOT compatible with every single computer ever made. Bioware really really really really wants me to buy the expansion pack, but since I can't play it either.. I'm not going to buy it. I'm sure they are sad, but they'll get over it. Because they market to the masses, they can't make a version for EVERY SINGLE computer out there.

Nor can Harmonix make a solution for EVERY SINGLE home theatre out there. They try, I'm sure they wish they could, but it won't happen.


However, with my knowledge of audio hardware, I doubt the problem lies with your A/V set (that can't be fixed by calibrating the lag)

It sounds to me, and I'm trying to be helpful here, that the problem stems from you being incredibly used to singing in Singstar Karaoke. Which, I've never played, but I imagine is completely different. I could be wrong, but it just seems like if you are perfect in that game and it's different, it might be affecting the way you play this one.

Who knows though? Post the details about your home theatre set up, what you've done to fix the problem (without being abrasive or angry) and maybe someone can give you more personalized advice.

[dis3ngage1337]

I'm #2 on dont fear the reaper, i seem to be doing fine

[Bluepai]

K, if NONE of your instruments are working, you need to set your lag options on the game.

However, if every instrument hits perfectly OTHER than the microphone, it might just be your specific singing style.

That's not supposed to be an insult. Modern pop/rock singing teaches singers NOT to hit the correct pitch when the note first begins. This type of singing is designed to be entertaining, but not accurate. In order to sing well for a ELECTRONIC GAME you have to sing accurately, but not entertaining. If you're with a group of friends and they want to see what the games like, turn the difficulty down to entertain them. If you want to get points, sing robotically.



And for Mistersh0w, who keeps bringing up Singstar, you can't compare the two games
that closely.

If I play nothing but Halo 3 and then I switch to Call of Duty 4, I can't blame Activision for me not grasping the game instantly. They are different games, and should be treated as such.

[Mistersh0w]

...And for Mistersh0w, who keeps bringing up Singstar, you can't compare the two games
that closely.

If I play nothing but Halo 3 and then I switch to Call of Duty 4, I can't blame Activision for me not grasping the game instantly. They are different games, and should be treated as such.

That's ridiculous! Singstar is MADE by HMX! They can't have created the Rock Band "karaoke" portion from the ground up! They're most likely using the same coding from Singstar essentially...



...It sounds to me, and I'm trying to be helpful here, that the problem stems from you being incredibly used to singing in Singstar Karaoke. Which, I've never played, but I imagine is completely different. I could be wrong, but it just seems like if you are perfect in that game and it's different, it might be affecting the way you play this one.

I'm actually NOT used to Signstar at ALL. I only borrowed it from a friend to test out the lag problem. The fact is, when I SPEAK into the Singstar mic, my voice comes out of the speakers in time with my speaking. With Rock Band, my voice comes out LATER.

And trust me, i've spent an entire DAY messing with the individual lag settings, and to no avail. When I get even SLIGHTLY close to having almost no lag on the mic, (which is still pretty damn laggy) it ends up screwing up the timing for all other instruments...

And for the person who said I should sing BEFORE the lyric comes in is absolutely ridiculous! That's not how SINGING works! I play in REAL bands, and I sing IN TIME with the instruments!! To do otherwise is completely wrong!! I should be able to sing in time with the drums and guitar, AND I should hear my vocals from the speakers in time as well... That's not happening.

[Bluepai]

If you and a few others are having trouble with a specific game or feature of the game and noone else is, is could be you and the few others that are experiencing the problem. I'm not trying to say that Harmonix shouldn't LOOK at the problem, and see if it's widespread, but it's also not fair to determine that every problem you have with the game is the games fault.

And I've played the Karaoke Revolutions, made by Harmonix. Karaoke Revolution AND Rock Band's vocal mode function in exactly the same way.

[Requiem]

I can't sing worth a damn, yet I have actually 5 starred several song on expert with the HEADSET.

Vocals just seem to be one of those things that is going to be different for everyone across the board.

[espher]

That's ridiculous! Singstar is MADE by HMX! They can't have created the Rock Band "karaoke" portion from the ground up! They're most likely using the same coding from Singstar essentially...

Wait, what?

[Electric_Zen]

That's ridiculous! Singstar is MADE by HMX!

That was funny.

[Mistersh0w]

That was funny.

My bad, been saying Singstar all day, meant Karaoke Revolution! Correction...

[Mistersh0w]

If you and a few others are having trouble with a specific game or feature of the game and noone else is, is could be you and the few others that are experiencing the problem. I'm not trying to say that Harmonix shouldn't LOOK at the problem, and see if it's widespread, but it's also not fair to determine that every problem you have with the game is the games fault.

And I've played the Karaoke Revolutions, made by Harmonix. Karaoke Revolution AND Rock Band's vocal mode function in exactly the same way.

I'm not saying EVERYONE has this problem. But if you want proof of how many people do, go check out the first sticky in the Tech forum. I'm not the only one with this problem, and we were told in the beginning that they would look into the issue. It's now WEEKS later, and I read what HMXJohnlok was saying about the issue, and that it's completely an a/v setup problem and it's very discouraging. If it's FLAT OUT not their fault, why haven't they come out to say so in the sticky? Instead we hear in passing from a HMX person, that it's not their issue in the main forum.

I'm just saying that it's not fair that the majority of us with this lag issue have to take extreme measures to make this game playable, and we were never told this in the beginning. If there was a disclaimer on the RB box that says: "WARNING: THIS GAME MAY NOT WORK WITH CERTAIN AUDIO SETUPS!" then MAYBE I'd settle for going out and buying different audio equipment. But the fact remains that this lag issue has no definitive solution, and those of us who have it are stuck with a non-working game!

[Ultrace]

If there was a disclaimer on the RB box that says: "WARNING: THIS GAME MAY NOT WORK WITH CERTAIN AUDIO SETUPS!" then MAYBE I'd settle for going out and buying different audio equipment.
That's the thing. The game is working. If there is a lag issue associated with your AV and not with your actual singing (es explained rather deftly by someone earlier), then you adjust your singing. It's not like you can't play. But the concept of lag influencing the game can occur with anything you play. They should put such a warning on the box for Halo 3, where a split second delay in multiplayer means you get head-shot, or in a platformer, where dallying in mid-jump could send you into a pit for insta-death. But they don't print these things, even though people have reported these problems in the past.

I don't know about your issue, I'm not going to troubleshoot it. But you can't say the game is not working, just because you're having trouble getting high scores on Expert...

[SSPWOLF]

I asked you to post what audio equipment you had and the details of what you tried to do to fix it.

You are obviously more interested in complaining about Harmonix than fixing this issue, and I DEFINITELY have better things to do than to help you.

I do sound for major music and movie projects, I'm pretty sure I COULD have helped you with your video game problem.

[Muppethero]

I am in the top 20 of a few songs and top on Heroes I dont have any issues.

[Mistersh0w]

I asked you to post what audio equipment you had and the details of what you tried to do to fix it.

You are obviously more interested in complaining about Harmonix than fixing this issue, and I DEFINITELY have better things to do than to help you.

I do sound for major music and movie projects, I'm pretty sure I COULD have helped you with your video game problem.


Hey whoah now, don't attack me buddy, I was at work, and I have very little info on my setup while i'm not at home. Trust me, take a moment to read the first sticky in the tech forum if you would, I do NO complaining about the problem until we're kept waiting for an answer for quite a while... I can see by the amount of posts you've made that we've probably been around these boards for the same amount of time, there's no need to treat me like a newb.

Now that i'm home, i'll explain my setup in detail, if you would please read it over. I'm sorry about being sort of an ass, but i'm really sick of this lag problem, and would really like the vocal portion of the game more enjoyable. As it stands, I have a guitar and drums sitting somewhere in a warehouse awaiting replacement, so I only have the mic portion of the game available. With the mic lag being as extreme as it is, it's unplayable for me... But enough of that crap, here's my setup:

Mitsubishi 1080p DLP television with HDMI IN from the PS3. PS3 has optical audio OUT to a Kenwood VR-510 receiver.

Look, I appreciate the help, I really do. I'm just a gamer and lover of music games that wants this game to work right. I know enough about music to know that with decent enough audio equipment (even the budget ****), there should be NO LAG between the vocals and what you hear from the speakers. If this weren't true, there would be NO POINT to having monitors on stage, or a click track in your ear. EVERYTHING in a band should be in sync for the music to sound good. EVERYTHING.

And to the guy that brought in HALO 3 multiplayer lag comparison, who are you kidding? If I get a headshot off a guy, who barks out that it wasn't fair because he was lagged, it's because of INTERNET LATENCY issues. I'm playing RB ALL LOCALLY with LIVE vocals coming out LIVE from my speakers with NO INTERNET connection in between. It's a completely different situation. It's starting to piss me off that those with NO LAG present on their systems are giving those who do have lag a hard time, with crap comparisons and ridiculous analogies.

I would really appreciate your help SSPWOLF, because I just want this game to work right. I'm pretty sure that those who don't care about, or don't notice the lag problem are those who are new to singing/karaoke games. Maybe they don't understand the lag problem. And those who are singing before they should and learning to do so are learning how to sing incorrectly. I'm sure POP MUSIC teachers may teach a method similar to singing before they should, but that's for POP MUSIC. And definitely NOT for music games, or karaoke singing.

[yeahreally]

I am hardly an A/V expert, but processing a digital signal (optical connection) on a receiver without a lot a processing power can introduce a noticible lag. Have you tried running analogue stereo cables from the PS3 to the receiver? A lot of A/V and HD movie buffs that I have talked to have recommended using all analogue hookups if you have a cheap receiver like me.

[Keebler]

Here's a simple solution for some people: dumb down your A/V setup. If you have a big, huge, expensive stereo system and the game is proving to hamper your vocal ability, turn off your system and have the game audio output through your TV speakers. That should take care of most issues.

[Quyrean]

Not sure if it is the same with rock band as gh3, but we had horrible lag with gh3 and discovered that using the component cables instead of the hdmi fixed alot of the problem. You get the same exact signal, its just in a different wire.

You might not get 1080p with component because of the stupid drm but, I dont think rock band does 1080p anyways.

[Mistersh0w]

I am hardly an A/V expert, but processing a digital signal (optical connection) on a receiver without a lot a processing power can introduce a noticible lag. Have you tried running analogue stereo cables from the PS3 to the receiver? A lot of A/V and HD movie buffs that I have talked to have recommended using all analogue hookups if you have a cheap receiver like me.


Here's a simple solution for some people: dumb down your A/V setup. If you have a big, huge, expensive stereo system and the game is proving to hamper your vocal ability, turn off your system and have the game audio output through your TV speakers. That should take care of most issues.


Fortunately, I do have a crappy receiver lying around, and back on launch day, I took several extreme measures to get that all hooked up again, to no avail. I got the SAME lag on an older crappy sony receiver as I do on my Kenwood.

Just the same, I tried pluggin in the old regular RCA's that came with the PS3 straight into the tv, same lag. It's strange too cause there's pretty much NO difference when I try out the straight analog signal... Also tried the audio through a guitar amp and my laptop speakers. No change. For a while there, I was pretty convinced it could be the PS3... And that's still an option... though i'm pretty set on the fact that it's the game at this point... I just don't know what else to believe...

I do appreciate everyone's help.

[Mistersh0w]

*bump* I really do need help with this issue... I don't want this thread to die.

[SSPWOLF]

Okay.. your set up seems kosher to me. I can't imagine your personal hardware is the problem.

So.. let's figure this out ;)

If you have the time and patience... pick the one song in the game that you know the BEST. For me, I'd sing "In Bloom" because I could 100% that song with the t.v. picture turned off.

Go to the options and turn down all the vocal options. (I'm not in the game right now, but I know you can mute the game track and I'm pretty sure you can mute yourself.)

Now sing the song just listening to the instruments. Do it a couple times, 1st watch the screen and try and match up your pitch meter, then do it without looking and see what you get for score.


Here's what I'm thinking, you got a pretty sweet set up, so if you've done the "manual calibration" thing and that doesn't work.. then it's probably the ridiculous amount of "reverb" that they purposely put in the game that's throwing you off.

I noticed this too and it annoys the hell out of me to, but it's not a fault... a real karaoke bar has just as much echo/reverb effect put on.

If this doesn't help at all, we'll figure something else out.

As far as technical aspects go, are you set up Dolby 5.0, 2.0, digital stereo, THX, Tru-Surround, Stereo Surround, Simulated Surround, No Surround... or what?

[Mistersh0w]

Okay.. your set up seems kosher to me. I can't imagine your personal hardware is the problem.

So.. let's figure this out ;)

If you have the time and patience... pick the one song in the game that you know the BEST. For me, I'd sing "In Bloom" because I could 100% that song with the t.v. picture turned off.

Go to the options and turn down all the vocal options. (I'm not in the game right now, but I know you can mute the game track and I'm pretty sure you can mute yourself.)

Now sing the song just listening to the instruments. Do it a couple times, 1st watch the screen and try and match up your pitch meter, then do it without looking and see what you get for score.


Here's what I'm thinking, you got a pretty sweet set up, so if you've done the "manual calibration" thing and that doesn't work.. then it's probably the ridiculous amount of "reverb" that they purposely put in the game that's throwing you off.

I noticed this too and it annoys the hell out of me to, but it's not a fault... a real karaoke bar has just as much echo/reverb effect put on.

If this doesn't help at all, we'll figure something else out.

As far as technical aspects go, are you set up Dolby 5.0, 2.0, digital stereo, THX, Tru-Surround, Stereo Surround, Simulated Surround, No Surround... or what?

Awesome, thanks for getting back to me. So when I get home i'll try the singing and not looking at the screen thing, and see what kind of score I get... I'm best at Creep so should be fun...

I doubt the problem may be intensified by the reverb... I've been to plenty of shady karaoke bars and sang with worse reverb than RB has... Plus with reverb, it just extends the amount of time your vocals last, which has nothing to do with live timing. But it would be nice to be able to turn the option off at least...

As far as the technical aspects go, i'll have to get back to you once i'm home again, i'm pretty sure i've tried singing and such without the digital "filters" on... But hey, it's all worth another try at this point...

Thanks again for your help.

[jrmedia]

Like I said...Mute the TV....this is not an AUDIO PROBLEM! THIS HAS ZERO TO DO WITH SURROUND SOUND SYSTEMS OR STEROR RECIEVERS. EVEN WITH ALL THOSE THINGS CUT OUT OF THE EQUATION ITS THE SAME RESULT. Its a processing issue...I HAVE NO SOUND SYSTEM, JUST MY SAMSUNG LN-SERIES LCD TV. no matter how much i adjust the lag the processing does not change. Your over thinking this, your assuming that everone doesn't have the problem. Every person I talk to does have this problem, they're just not nerdy enough to go onto a message board and complain about it. Its not processing the sound quick enough. No matter what anyone does with the lag its always off. Maybe some people don't notice it because a) they don't care b) they know nothing about music and signal c) think its there fault and not the game.

try this:
disconnect all extra sound equipment and just use your TV speakers.
Mute the TV
no matter what your lag or calibration setting is the signal will not process any faster.

watch the icon light up as you hit the pad..its not instantaneous!

THIS IS WHY FILLS ARE ALWAYS OFF....

3rd party audio systems have nothing to do with this issue. why can't you people see this? come on guys...for real.

ITS NOT MY EQUIPMENT! This problem is happening on both consoles.....STOP BLAMING 3RD PARTY EQUIPMET FOR YOUR BAD SOFTWARE! I WANT A ****ING SOLUTION!

[bl4ckfl4g]

Wow Nerd Rage ftw

[espher]

ITS NOT MY EQUIPMENT! This problem is happening on both consoles.....STOP BLAMING 3RD PARTY EQUIPMET FOR YOUR BAD SOFTWARE! I WANT A ****ING SOLUTION!

If it's not your equipment I wonder why I'm not having this problem.

Oh God.

Maybe my equipment is the problem.

Oh God.

Oh my God.

They're calling from inside the house.

We're coming for you, Barbara!

[osirisbunnyfoofoo]

That's the thing. The game is working. If there is a lag issue associated with your AV and not with your actual singing (es explained rather deftly by someone earlier), then you adjust your singing. It's not like you can't play. But the concept of lag influencing the game can occur with anything you play. They should put such a warning on the box for Halo 3, where a split second delay in multiplayer means you get head-shot, or in a platformer, where dallying in mid-jump could send you into a pit for insta-death. But they don't print these things, even though people have reported these problems in the past.

I don't know about your issue, I'm not going to troubleshoot it. But you can't say the game is not working, just because you're having trouble getting high scores on Expert...

I'm playing hooked up to a non-HD outlet. I shouldn't have to adjust my singing when I know I'm doing it perfectly. (Yeah, it sounds conceited, but...it's true.) I can't even pass a song on hard. I shouldn't have to sing every word/note in the song half a second early. And in Halo, the sound not matching the picture isn't going to influence your play much. The picture should be all that counts. In Rock Band, however, having to sing off beat from the music can screw you over.

[dagware]

To HMXJohnlok:

Can you tell me whether there's any settings in the game that will intentionally introduce mic lag? By "mic lag" I mean the length of time it takes for the sound to come from the mic, to the time it goes out the PS3's audio cable. For example, if I adjust the calibration settings, will any of them cause the sound coming from the mic to be delayed being sent through the speakers? I kind of doubt it, but I just want to make sure I have all the facts straight as I try to figure out what's going on.

Thanks!

To everyone else who does NOT have a mic lag issue:

I have a question for those of you who don't have mic lag: When you tap (or bang) on the mic, does the sound come out immediately, or is there a delay before the sound comes out? I know that "delay" can be subjective, but as best as you can determine, is there a delay when you tap on the mic?

Here's why I ask: For my system, there is a very noticeable delay. I'm willing to believe it's my system's fault -- that's the only answer that makes sense if other people really don't have this issue. So if you people who don't have a delay can try this and verify that you don't have a delay, then I can continue to focus on my system.

Thanks!

Dan

[Bobble]

The high lag some people are experiencing is not inherent to the vocals system. It has to do with certain TV/Audio setups. The sticky exists to help people with those setups mitigate that problem, and is by means an issue that exists across the board.

And as for vocal tips... just keep practicing ;)

Practice eh? That's the rough part about vocals, most people that can't sing are tone deaf which is why American Idol tryouts are a riot. That said, I've been able to do extremely well on expert singing and playing at the same time (so long as the guitar part isn't too hard) and tho I've never gotten gold stars on it, it's hard to get gold stars on anything, guitar, drums, singing, whatever it is, and my intonation isn't probably as polished as someone that actually sings and practices often, that's probably why Johnlok blows you outta the water. Doesn't help if you drink soda right before singing either.

[dagware]

Doesn't help if you drink soda right before singing either.

What about beer? :p (Just kidding.)

Dan

[jrmedia]

QUOTE=Barrid;204499]I encounter this lag problem on my DLP at home with no audio system hooked up, directly through the TV speakers. I've taken the game to my parent's house where they have an LCD set and no audio system, and I still have the same lag even though it's LCD. I've also taken the game to my friend's house who has a Plasma again with no sound system hooked up, there's still a lag. 3/3 HDTVs I've tried the game on experience the same problem, all 3 just going through the main TV's speakers.

And yes, I spent lots of time trying to callibrate correctly for each TV by first using the built-in settings for LCD, DLP, Plasma and then trying to manually tune it. I think it would be really helpful to have some sort of way to test the lag inside of the callibration system. Maybe it could track where you were playing the notes and show it to you so you can see if you're always ahead or behind and suggest a different setting. I am a drummer, so I can easily tell when the timing isn't lining up between the speakers and the notes I'm hitting.[/QUOTE]

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

To prove my point from before...ITS NOT a 3RD PARTY audio issue. Its definetly a software issue. When the drum pad is hit the signal travels through the controller wire to the xbox 360 which takes the signal and converts the audio to a snare (tom cymbal..etc). Its taking far to long for the signal to be processed.

I REPEAT THIS IS NOT A PROBLEM CAUSED BY "US" OR OUR SYSTEMS!

COME ON HARMONIX, WHERE IS ARE FxCKING UPDATE! ITS BEEN A MONTH ALREADY!

[hmxsean]

And as I've stated before - we are looking into these issues. When I have more info about that I will release it.

[jrmedia]

When you do a drum fill you have zero lag? its absolutly perfect, no delay at all? What TV are you using? what console are you using and are you positive that when you do a drum fill there is zero lag? Your the only person who has no lag. 7 of my friends (only 7 have the game) have the same problem. Your one lucky guy.

[jrmedia]

I'm so sick of dicking with the settings...iI've been fxcking with these settings for over a month. I got the game they day it came out and it hasn't been right since. I'm giving up completly on trying to find any answers. I've done every single thing that everyone has suggested and the problem hasn't gotten any better. I'll check back for updates but as far as posting and posting, i'm done. I'm defeated. Harmonix has broke me down with there silence like they've been trying to do all along.

THANKS TO EVERYONE WHO TRIED TO HELP ME OUT

once again my TV is:
Samsung LN-series LCD TV
No 3rd party sound systems
Xbox 360 (no hdmi my 360 doesn't have hdmi)

if anyone ever fixes it and it works perfectly let me know.

I will never buy another harmonix game again until this issue is either resolved or they admit that they're is no fix. I sincerely mean that.

[PHiNiX]

why is it that since he developed the game you think he is cheating

hey may be a great vocalist and have practiced

you dont know that so dont make assumptions

[tbradshaw]

When you do a drum fill you have zero lag? its absolutly perfect, no delay at all? What TV are you using? what console are you using and are you positive that when you do a drum fill there is zero lag? Your the only person who has no lag. 7 of my friends (only 7 have the game) have the same problem. Your one lucky guy.

I have generated zero lag situations in two configurations:

TV: LCD, Video Format: HDMI, Video Cable: HDMI, Audio Format: Analog Stereo, Audio Cable:"RCAs"

TV: Cathode Ray Tube, Video Format: Analog Composite, Video Cable: "RCAs", Audio Format: Analog Stereo, Audio Cable: "RCAs"

The goal here, is to avoid any post processing in the hardware connected to the game. Any of the following elements generate lag:

Analog connections to the LCD TV (forces analog to digital conversion)
Dolby Surround Sound (forces Dolby decoding and processing)
Optical Audio Cable (forces optical to electrical and digital to analog conversion)

These (of course) compound. Calibration can remove the perceived lag in prerecorded samples, but (by it's nature) cannot effect the lag of dynamically generated sound (fills or vocal response).

My best gaming experience so far has been with the lag inducing elements and compensation. My fills just don't bother me too much, which might be entirely my lack of skill at the drums. (I'm just starting hard.)

My daily gaming configuration includes:

TV: LCD, Video Format: Analog Component, Video Cable: Insulated (not that it matters) RGB Component, Audio Format: Dolby Surround, Audio Cable: Optical

My drum fills are laggy... but not horribly so. I kind of shift focus from the generated sound to the sound of my sticks hitting the drums and then back to the track after the fill. It's a little "gamey" and a less rich experience, but it's good enough for me to have fun.

[Thee Production]

To everyone else who does NOT have a mic lag issue:

I have a question for those of you who don't have mic lag: When you tap (or bang) on the mic, does the sound come out immediately, or is there a delay before the sound comes out? I know that "delay" can be subjective, but as best as you can determine, is there a delay when you tap on the mic?

Here's why I ask: For my system, there is a very noticeable delay. I'm willing to believe it's my system's fault -- that's the only answer that makes sense if other people really don't have this issue. So if you people who don't have a delay can try this and verify that you don't have a delay, then I can continue to focus on my system.

Thanks!

Dan

Yes, I can verify that I have absolutely no [noticeable] delay tapping the mic.


I don't have any lag on drum fills either.

[yeahreally]

For reference I have a Samsung LNS4096d HDTV and a Samsung 5.1 surround receiver. I have my Xbox360 connected to the TV with an HDMI cable and RCA stereo cables to the receiver. Running the sound to the TV introduces a small delay. Running the sound to the receiver with an optical cable also introduces a delay. The way I tuned my setup was to take all of my audio settings to the lowest level in the game, in the Xbox360's menus, on my TV, and on my receiver. I then turned things back on one at a time to see what actually caused noticeable lag. I tested this with drum fills and singing a song that I'm really good at on expert. With this setup I've completed the solo vocal career on expert and have gotten 100% on one song on expert so far.

[Mistersh0w]

I think the bigger problem is there are too many casual music gamers here, and not enough expert level players that STRIVE for being an expert player. In order to do so, you must get PERFECT scores on the vocals, which is just not possible with the current lag issues A LOT of us are having, notice I did not say EVERYONE...

In the drums especially, cause you don't have to be in time with the song to get the points. You can crash and smash like a mad idiot and get the points as long as you hit that green note... But there are those of us who wish to smash out a decent beat, in time with the song during the drum fill sections... Now i'm no drummer, but I feel like with enough practice, I could drum out some decently timed hits that sound good in time with the main song! This just isn't possible with the lag problem.

And I appreciate HMXsean's response to us who have been waiting all this time for an answer! Though it would have been nicer in the sticky on the tech forum... But i'm not gonna complain about SOME KIND of official update, even as seldom as they are...:rolleyes:

[espher]

Yes, I can verify that I have absolutely no [noticeable] delay tapping the mic.

I don't have any lag on drum fills either.

Yeah, I tap the mic all the time just screwing around waiting for a song to load and it's never felt off.

I also have no issues with fills.

[PHiNiX]

i think it is just the a/v setup people have

[dagware]

I posted about this in the tech forum thread, but I wanted to make sure everyone saw my results so I'm posting it here also:

The only way you can prove your audio system is not the problem is by eliminating it. I did this as an experiment: I took the RCA outs from the PS3 and plugged them into my Mackie mixer, and used headphones. The lag was almost entirely eliminated. I say almost, because when I tried vocals, there is a slight delay, which sounds like bad reverb. There's probably the same amount of delay in the drum fills, or maybe not -- maybe it's the mic itself that causes the delay. Again, this is a really small delay.

BTW, I have a PS3. I reset all game calibrations to 0. I turned off DD both in the PS3 and the game. I probably should also have tested with them on to see if they cause any problems, but I didn't.

The bottom line is this: My audio system was causing virtually all the delay. You can come up with all sorts of logical reasons why the problem is not your audio system. But until you eliminate your system for testing purposes, everything else you say is just speculation. Do yourself a favor and test it yourself.

Dan

PS: Of course, I don't know what I'll do with this information. Will I buy a new audio system? Time will tell.

[Drossvirex]

I did try singing "Cherub Rock" without the original vocals on and I clearly noticed a delay of when I hear myself coming out of the speakers. I still nailed it 100%, but again only on medium. It is definitly not coming out of my speakers in real time and I could see it being an issue. With the backing vocals ON I don't really have problems yet. Then again I'm playing on medium.

I have a Sharp Aquos with an 8 MS delay time. I don't have any problems with Guitar or Drums by setting the calibration to 80. My sound is hooked up to an Onkyo receiver with optical.

[dagware]

Hey Harmonix Guys -

Regarding the lag produced by user's audio system, and calibrating the system -- couldn't you use the mic to automatically determine how much lag the audio system is providing? You could run a click track and have the user hold the mic near the speakers, and then you would know exactly how much delay is caused by the user's system. If it's true that the mic has some inherent delay in it, you should know what that is because you're giving us the mic, so you can figure that in also.

I know this won't solve the problem of drum fills coming late, or people's voices coming out late, but it will do three things: The first is that you will know exactly how to calibrate things so you know when I hit a drum pad or strum bar in time with the audio. The second is that you can tell the user exactly how much delay their system is causing, and how this will impact game play. The third is that it will eliminate (or almost eliminate) our blaming the software for the delay. (On second thought, knowing people like I do, perhaps this third point is just wishful thinking).

Anyway, it's a thought. I would think it would be pretty easy to do, since you're already processing audio sounds from the mic as it is.

Dan

[DeusTrinitas]

Let's keep this good information and these good suggestions coming! Hopefully if this thread stays bumped to the first page it will continue to get noticed.

[DrEvyl666]

I'm not really having lag issues... my Xbox is hooked up to a 19" computer monitor using the VGA adapter Microsoft makes for it. My vocal audio seems to be perfectly in sync with the songs.. The audio is two computer speakers plugged directly into the Xbox. I can 5 star songs on both guitar and drums on Expert.

However..

I am having bigtime tracking issues with vocals... I am a decent singer, and have fairly good pitch.. I sang professionally for about 10 years....and I can barely make it through songs on hard in this game. Expert is out of the question, even though if you listen to recordings of what it sounds like, it would pretty much defy an explanation of what was done wrong. I can't even get through the first set list.

I'll be holding a note steady, and the pitch needle will be bouncing all over the place. I'll sing a repeated phrase the same way twice, and get "Awesome" one time, and "Messy" the next... no real rhyme or reason to it.

Then I see videos of people getting "5 gold star" ratings on the song, and their pitch and timing is all over the board, some of them don't even sing the words... It's almost insulting. It's like you have to suck to do good at the game.

I've got a new microphone on the way, we'll see if that's the problem... but if I still have the same issues, I really don't have anything else to blame it on but the tracking... I can hear in my recordings that I'm more on pitch than a vast majority of the other out there who are getting 5 star expert scores.

[DeusTrinitas]

*bumpity-bump-bump*

[dagware]

Hey Harmonix Guys -

Regarding the lag produced by user's audio system, and calibrating the system -- couldn't you use the mic to automatically determine how much lag the audio system is providing? You could run a click track and have the user hold the mic near the speakers, and then you would know exactly how much delay is caused by the user's system. If it's true that the mic has some inherent delay in it, you should know what that is because you're giving us the mic, so you can figure that in also.

I know this won't solve the problem of drum fills coming late, or people's voices coming out late, but it will do three things: The first is that you will know exactly how to calibrate things so you know when I hit a drum pad or strum bar in time with the audio. The second is that you can tell the user exactly how much delay their system is causing, and how this will impact game play. The third is that it will eliminate (or almost eliminate) our blaming the software for the delay. (On second thought, knowing people like I do, perhaps this third point is just wishful thinking).

Anyway, it's a thought. I would think it would be pretty easy to do, since you're already processing audio sounds from the mic as it is.

Dan

[DeusTrinitas]

This is getting too many pages in due to the influx of new players and stupid questions. *Re-bump*

[tbradshaw]

Please don't bump your topics. Some conversations just end.