Two Guitars and Bass? No?

[ericlhall]

Hello-

I’m unable to find out how to play two guitars (John & George) , (plus Bass) at once..

It seems that you can only have one Guitar play at a time, and the other defaults to bass..

I find it hard to imagine that the folks at Apple Corps would agree to release this game and have it be actually unplayable in the same way the band actually played.

Otherwise, we really enjoyed it!

Please advise..

[trg007]

That's how it is in all RB games. The reason is probably due to there not being enough screen space to have four note tracks + vocals at the same time.

[ericlhall]

Hi trg007...

Thanks for your quick reply... I would gladly give up the drum track (on occasion) to be able to have two guitars and a bass. It just seems odd not to be able to play with the same group line up they had.

[logicalnoise]

The 360 only supports up to 4 inputs(the 3 vocal tracks piggy back on one controller). The point of the game is to emulate the beatles. yes the actual lineup represented what you're describing but in order to have harmonies they would always need to have a vocal track visible.
then there's the repetitiveness of rhythm guitar. In some songs it may be fun but it can lead to a lot of design problems to have a 3rd guitar track always programmed rather than simply integrating the rhythm track into the lead when necessary. It was a design choice mostly but also a practical one.

[LuigiHann]

I think this was a stupid decision. Not a game-ruining decision, but the fact that they could have done it right (and they could have) and chose not to, does hurt the game a bit for me.

[greenyfortehwin]

piggy back the vocals each to a single guitar. then it works mo betta

[ericlhall]

Not intending to start an all caps firestorm, the ability to play all the instruments, in any combination (with a certain title that ends in "5"), is very popular around our house, where we play the games every evening with whomever is around. We buy every music title which works with our plastic guitars, and are really quite shocked at the lack of fidelity in the Beatles release to the original band lineup.
I'm just sayin...

[PCTraitor]

Imagine splitting the guitar track into 2 guitars. Um yeah pretty boring. It would result in 2 half as good guitar tracks. At least Paul's bass is pretty fun.

[Just_a_Bill]

Yeah, I'm kinda with eric ... the mix-and-match feature in that "5" game seems like a pretty simple innovation to develop, and I (naively, perhaps) would have thought that the very process of developing a Beatles game would have prompted somebody on the dev team to think of it.

[DeusTrinitas]

Just remember that the design choices were given approval by Paul, Ringo, Yoko, and the Harrison family. That's good enough for me.

[trg007]

Not intending to start an all caps firestorm, the ability to play all the instruments, in any combination (with a certain title that ends in "5"), is very popular around our house, where we play the games every evening with whomever is around. We buy every music title which works with our plastic guitars, and are really quite shocked at the lack of fidelity in the Beatles release to the original band lineup.
I'm just sayin...

Correct me if I'm wrong, because I own GH5 but haven't used the Party mode, but you still can't have more than 4 local players, can you? If I understand correctly, there's no way to have more than 4 controllers connected, so there would be no way to truly emulate the Beatles format even if the guitars were charted separately. You'd still have to leave out one instrument, or have nobody singing.

[Mex]

I think the screen would be too cluttered to add another note highway. So then you have the option of dropping the drummer right? That's cool...except...

...this thread would just be somebody else saying "What the hell? How come we can't all play?!".

Know what I mean?

[iagomonk]

I think the screen would be too cluttered to add another note highway.

As previously mentioned, this is already done in the competitor's product. Yes, it's a little cramped - especially on non-widescreen television - but it's already being done.

[Chaosraiden]

Correct me if I'm wrong, because I own GH5 but haven't used the Party mode, but you still can't have more than 4 local players, can you? If I understand correctly, there's no way to have more than 4 controllers connected, so there would be no way to truly emulate the Beatles format even if the guitars were charted separately. You'd still have to leave out one instrument, or have nobody singing.
But can you have 4 lanes for guitar and drums as opposed to the usual 3.

[LuigiHann]

Imagine splitting the guitar track into 2 guitars. Um yeah pretty boring. It would result in 2 half as good guitar tracks.

HOW I WOULD DO IT:

When playing with one guitar, it's the "mixed" chart we're used to. Only when you have two people choosing guitar would it break it up into two charts. It's totally doable.


If I understand correctly, there's no way to have more than 4 controllers connected, so there would be no way to truly emulate the Beatles format even if the guitars were charted separately.

The microphones don't count as controllers, so you could just replace the standard 360 controller (that you need to navigate the menus as a vocalist) with a third guitar.

[pupsdaddy]

I think this was a stupid decision. Not a game-ruining decision, but the fact that they could have done it right (and they could have) and chose not to, does hurt the game a bit for me.

Well, if they come out with a PS3 version only, then it could happen. But as long as they are tied down to making an XBOX version as well, then you're stuck with four controllers. Period.

Leave it to Microsoft to screw us out of something cool because of their drawbacks.

[Mex]

As previously mentioned, this is already done in the competitor's product. Yes, it's a little cramped - especially on non-widescreen television - but it's already being done.

I didn't say it couldn't be done, just that it would be too cramped. It's a design decision I guess. Know what I mean?

I get the want to have it but....the game is not going to suit everyones needs or wants.

[BustaUppa]

then there's the repetitiveness of rhythm guitar. In some songs it may be fun but it can lead to a lot of design problems to have a 3rd guitar track always programmed rather than simply integrating the rhythm track into the lead when necessary. It was a design choice mostly but also a practical one.This is the best argument I've heard on the subject. Sacrificing a bit of "authenticity" in the name of fun gameplay is okay in my book.

[LuigiHann]

Well, if they come out with a PS3 version only, then it could happen. But as long as they are tied down to making an XBOX version as well, then you're stuck with four controllers. Period.

Leave it to Microsoft to screw us out of something cool because of their drawbacks.

The microphones don't count as controllers, so you could just replace the standard 360 controller (that you need to navigate the menus as a vocalist) with a third guitar.

[ericlhall]

Here is the official (and quite thoughtful) reply:

Hi Eric,

Thanks for writing in.

You are correct, The Beatles: Rock Band does not present you with the choice to play two guitars in addition to bass. Our guitar parts were mixed by Giles Martin (Sir George Martin's son) to be an amalgam of all the best guitar parts per song. Keep in mind that later in the Beatles'
career they would overdub multiple guitar parts, in addition to other instruments like Moogs, Sitars, Hammond Organs, etc. Because this is a Rock Band game, we only have Bass, Guitar, Drums, and Vocals, with the new innovation being support for 3-part vocal harmonies in this game.
And yes, Apple Corps, including the surviving Beatles' and the others'
widows all signed off in everything in the game, and were very involved in the whole process.

Thanks so much for your support of our game, and it seems like you're quite a big Beatles fan yourself, so it's great to hear you enjoyed it!

Thanks again,
EricP

-------

So it appears to be in issue with the non multi-track nature of the vintage source material, rather than a technical issue with the game hardware...

[BustaUppa]

So it appears to be in issue with the non multi-track nature of the vintage source material, rather than a technical issue with the game hardware...I didn't get that from the note at all :confused:
It sounds like more like they're saying that it was, in fact, a design choice.

[trench762]

and also although GH5 does have the ability to have 4 guitarists, you are all playing the same part, no matter how many guitarists are actually on the song, and the 4 note highways are very small, I'm playing on a 52" TV and squinting when there are 4 non-vocalists. RB:TB and GH5 are too different yet both awesome games, both with their own strengths and weaknesses.

[Kingfish]

Come on folks...there has to be some 'selling' point for the NEXT TB:RB 2 game!

But as has been said, the splitting of the guitar into two tracks would really be potentially a pretty simple charting for both. Only way I see this working is if they made it mandatory play on EXPERT & they then tie the vocal parts to that instrument and make THAT mandatory too. Call it "TRUE BEATLE MODE" or sumthin...George would have most of the lead but John would get harmonica and some keyboard type parts.

EDIT: I meant this as a little 'joke' but after reading it...I like the idea of a TRUE BEATLES MODE...I do!!!

[Just_a_Bill]

I don't think the argument here necessarily is that they should have separated out the lead and rhythm guitar as separate charts, or even that they should have allowed more highways on the screen. I think the point was more along the lines of, "gee, it's too bad that each of the players can't choose which instrument he's playing", meaning that two (or three) of us could be playing guitar at the same time. I believe that's what GH5 allows.

From a purely technical perspective, something like this should be possible:


Available charts to play:

Combined lead/rhythm guitar ("most fun mix" chart)
Pure lead guitar
Pure rhythm guitar
Bass
Drums
Vocals

Limit it to however many highways are practical (perhaps even still just three), but each player gets to pick whichever chart he wants, as long as he has a suitable instrument for it. Who cares if there are duplicates. Heck, maybe even two of us can both play drums as long as we have two kits hooked up.

That seems like an interesting goal to shoot for in GH6/RB3.

[ericlhall]

Here is an update from the RB support staff:
I asked (as a followup)

Thanks for your reply... I've taken the liberty of posting your reply in the Beatles Rock Band Forum, I hope you don't mind..

Can you shed some light on whether this feature omission was necessary because of the lack of discrete tracks in the vintage source material, or merely a design choice, for (lack of a better word) expediency's sake.

They Replied:

No problem posting it on the forums, Eric.

As I was neither one of the Designers on the game, nor in the know about the quality of the source material, I can't comment on your question. I would just note that none of our previous games have offered this functionality previously, so I wouldn't regard it as an omission from the game.

It's cool you've started a discussion on the forums. As you can see lots of people have varied opinions, and that's what our forums are for!

-----

My comment is that since it seems quite possible in GH5, that it should have been an option in the Beatles RB, and hopefully it can be added as an update at some point.

Eric-

[Branr]

True, GH5 allows 2 (or more) guitarists at the same time, but they are playing the same thing. There aren't rhythm and lead guitar parts, just guitar parts. Even if TB:RB allowed you TO play two guitars, it still wouldn't be true Beatles.

[BustaUppa]

Another reason I'm fine with the current setup is that I'm one of those weirdos who gets a kick out of non-guitar parts getting charted to guitar, and that just muddies the waters even more when you go for "authentic" chart separation. You also have to consider that the lead/rhythm/bass distinction doesn't even apply to like half of the Beatles catalogue. There are already plenty of songs where they really have to reach to fill out a single guitar chart.

Basically it would be a ton of effort and resources to satisfy a very small minority, and it couldn't even be used for a good chunk of the game. You can talk about authenticity all you like, but what the hell are three guitarists gonna do on "Within You Without You" or "She's Leaving Home"?

[HeadHunter67]

HOW I WOULD DO IT:

When playing with one guitar, it's the "mixed" chart we're used to. Only when you have two people choosing guitar would it break it up into two charts. It's totally doable.
I agree. For those who say "rhythm guitar is too boring and repetitive", I simply say "You don't sing, do you?" Try singing and playing even a "repetitive" rhythm line and see if you find it anything less than challenging.

On a somewhat related note, I still want the ability to move the vocal track to the bottom of the screen so that I can focus on the note target and the vocal line at the same time when I do voxtar.

[Dartagnan64]

Silly argument since:
1)4 lanes is too crowded for most peoples TV's
2) Most of the fun of party play is everyone doing different things (singing, lead, bass and drums)
3) the GH "innovation" of 4 players playing the same instrument and note chart is not what "Rock Band" is all about. If you want a Multi-guitar game get a GH game not a Rock "Band" game. It's like being shocked that you can't play ping pong in a Tennis game.

It sounds like the OP doesn't want authenticity but rather wants to have everyone on guitar and avoid drums. That's not "authentic" either. True Authenticity would require lead, rhythm, and bass guitar with 3 mics and a drummer. How many average game buyers are going to be voxtarring their way through expert guitar and vocals. Not bloody likely.
As it is, this game allows 6 people to play at once which is superior to GH at parties if you ask me.

[InsaneDelight]

HOW I WOULD DO IT:

When playing with one guitar, it's the "mixed" chart we're used to. Only when you have two people choosing guitar would it break it up into two charts. It's totally doable.





Yes but your game wouldn't be out yet.

[HeadHunter67]

1)4 lanes is too crowded for most peoples TV's
That's what they said about switching from 2 lanes to 4 back when RB was first announced...


Most of the fun of party play is everyone doing different things (singing, lead, bass and drums)
That never stopped people from playing the original Guitar Hero with their friends.


the GH "innovation" of 4 players playing the same instrument and note chart is not what "Rock Band" is all about. If you want a Multi-guitar game get a GH game not a Rock "Band" game. It's like being shocked that you can't play ping pong in a Tennis game.
Actually, I thought Rock Band was all about... (wait for it) being part of a band? A band with more than 1 drummer? Perish the thought (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grateful_dead)! A band with more than one guitarist? Never happen (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beatles)! And we've never seen a band with multiple vocalists in RB, have we? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bang_Camaro) :rolleyes:

Sorry, but many bands do have more than one instrument of any given type. There are even bands with multiple bassists (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SMV_(band)), but I wouldn't expect that you have that degree of musical exposure.

So, tell me, then... why would a game that purports to be about BANDS limit the kind of band a group can play as? The "standard" band of vocalist, guitarist, bassist and drummer may be the most common, but it's not even the majority. You'll find a different configuration in more bands than not.

[blzbub74]

-----

My comment is that since it seems quite possible in GH5, that it should have been an option in the Beatles RB, and hopefully it can be added as an update at some point.

Eric-

It's not possible on GH5. You're not playing lead and rythm. It's to people playing exactly the same charts.

If you're wanting authenticity in charts, you would have to have multiple charts, including a chart for Harrison, a chart for Lennon, a chart for McCarthy since he also played guitar in studio, charts for guest players like Clapton. That would suck a lot of the fun right out of the game. Can you imagine a chart where you sit and do nothing for most of the song, play a guitar solo, and then sit and play nothing for the rest of the song?

They made the best decision they could to make the best GAME they could.

[LuigiHann]

It sounds like the OP doesn't want authenticity but rather wants to have everyone on guitar and avoid drums. That's not "authentic" either.

Noo, at least for me, it's about the idea that having a Beatles line-up which involves a lead singer that doesn't play an instrument feels very wrong.

[HeadHunter67]

If you're wanting authenticity in charts, you would have to have multiple charts, including a chart for Harrison, a chart for Lennon, a chart for McCarthy since he also played guitar in studio, charts for guest players like Clapton. That would suck a lot of the fun right out of the game. Can you imagine a chart where you sit and do nothing for most of the song, play a guitar solo, and then sit and play nothing for the rest of the song?

No, I can't imagine that - because you should be SINGING, too. Also, it's McCartney. :rolleyes:

[Headcase]

Imagine splitting the guitar track into 2 guitars. Um yeah pretty boring.

This is the logic they use. Still kinda surprised there's no option for authenticity's sake though.

[HeadHunter67]

I don't think we should cater to people who are afflicted with short attention spans and an inability to sing. :rolleyes:

[Branr]

I don't think we should cater to people who are afflicted with short attention spans and an inability to sing. :rolleyes:

I do NOT have a short atten...

ooh, shiny!

What was I talking about?

[HeadHunter67]

For guys our age, that's called a "senior moment". Leave the rest to our kids.
There was Generation X, "Generation Y", and now... Generation ADHD.

[tcole6]

Yeah I agree that while maybe 4 charts would be too much for the screen, they could at least let you decide WHICH 3 charts are up there. Would have added to the realism to play rhythm guitar in parts while the other plays lead and vice versa.

[Gaedel]

I saw Late Night With Conan O'Brien on Sept 8th and they did a demo with George's son on drums. They DID HAVE all three guitars, three microphones and the drums and were all playing!!! However, they only showed three tracks. So, here's the solution:

The Instruments:
Ringo's Drums
Paul's Hofner Bass
John's Rickenbacker Guitar
George's Gretsch Guitar
4 Microphones (Yes, you can do 4 if you get a dual microphone system and you wouldn't have to swap out microphones when Ringo gets to sing. This does work.)

The Players:
Ringo Player
Paul Player
John Player
George Player

The setup:
Ringo's player on the drums and a microphone.
Paul's player on the Hofner and a microphone.
John's player on the Rickenbacker and a microphone.
George's player on the Gretsch and a microphone.

The Workaround:
John's player and George's player switch off playing the on-screen track. The player that is not playing the on-screen track can just practice playing the track on their guitar, kinda like making a music video (Ok, fake it). They would still get to sing their parts and look authentic doing it! All you need is the vintage clothing, change your hair style (or in my case, get plugs), shake your heads to the beat (Paul and Ringo), tap your feet to the beat (Paul and George), bend your knees to the beat (John) and just BE THE BEATLES!

By the way, I am an optimist.

[T-Hybrid]

piggy back the vocals each to a single guitar. then it works mo betta
If only it were that easy. The vocal harmonies are tied into the current vocal scoring, treating the three singers as one mighty vocalist.

[HMXSlappy]

Hi everyone --

This is totally a fair question, and we did briefly consider supporting multiple guitar tracks, since The Beatles obviously have two guitarists. I can talk a little bit about why we didn't. Here's why we backed away from this idea:

* From our experience on other Rock Band games. we've learned that a guitar track that combines lead and rhythm parts offers more gameplay variety per song, and is more fun than sticking to any single guitar. This was the main reason.

* Not all Beatles songs feature two complete guitar parts -- or in some cases, any guitar parts -- so if we featured separated guitar parts for all songs, then some players would spend stretches of a song with nothing to do. So this idea would only be useful for some of our songs, not all. This made the idea less appealing.

* If we did separate guitars, we'd probably still want a composite guitar part for when only a single guitarist was involved. This would leave us with three guitar parts to author - composite guitar, lead and rhythm. This triples the amount of parts to build, test, and refine -- giving us less time to make each guitar as fun as it could be, or forcing us to divert resources from related gameplay areas like vocal harmonies. This is a big deal; even a game like TB:RB has to pick and choose where it experiments.

In the end it seemed like this approach would dilute the game's guitar goodness, making each part less fun to play, and giving us less time to polish the game. So we stuck with the proven RB formula.

Thanks -- ChrisF

[kiggidykev]

Interesting. Thanks for that explanation, ChrisF.

[wb22rules]

How great is it that these forums get actual input from the source,

Thanks ChrisF

You guys dont know how good you have it here, you wanna find out what its like to be on the other side try playing Ubisoft games for a while and being on their forums. What a breath of fresh air is it to see developers actully read AND respond to the forums.

Maybe one day there will be a version that supports large bands with a bunch of paticipants as they actually played, imagine playing a RB game or a dedicated Grateful Dead game with 2 drummers, Keyboard, Rythm, Lead and Bass with the occasional guest vocalist or extra guitar player. But due to many factors previously mentioned it is probably not feasible for any company to attempt it or for most TVs to display it. Meanwhile I have a blast playing with the 4 (or6) person setup that is available. But maybe one day...........:D

[Daytripped]

People that say they couldn't because there's no place, they are wrong. Guitar Hero 5 did it, and it works perfectly.

[PCTraitor]

Silly argument since:
1)4 lanes is too crowded for most peoples TV's
2) Most of the fun of party play is everyone doing different things (singing, lead, bass and drums)
3) the GH "innovation" of 4 players playing the same instrument and note chart is not what "Rock Band" is all about. If you want a Multi-guitar game get a GH game not a Rock "Band" game. It's like being shocked that you can't play ping pong in a Tennis game.

It sounds like the OP doesn't want authenticity but rather wants to have everyone on guitar and avoid drums. That's not "authentic" either. True Authenticity would require lead, rhythm, and bass guitar with 3 mics and a drummer. How many average game buyers are going to be voxtarring their way through expert guitar and vocals. Not bloody likely.
As it is, this game allows 6 people to play at once which is superior to GH at parties if you ask me.

I agree with this guy.

[PCTraitor]

People that say they couldn't because there's no place, they are wrong. Guitar Hero 5 did it, and it works perfectly.

But you're playing the same thing. You might as well just buy a second copy of the game and play it on a tv next to the other one.

[wcarnation]

People that say they couldn't because there's no place, they are wrong. Guitar Hero 5 did it, and it works perfectly.

Guitar Hero 5 did not do this, Guitar Hero 5 lets you play the exact same Guitar notes on two guitars, while bumping off the other instruments.

I believe having multiples of the same instrument is a bad idea because it breaks up the game play role of each instrument and diminishes the role of the individual players. On top of being a big mess to orchestrate, as mentioned by those who conduct, it would just be frustrating in gameplay.

When considering scores and stuff, you'd now have a 5th instrument to compensate and have to rely on performance from now 5 individuals. On top of that, the notes available for the two guitars would be reduced and in turn much more demanding of the players than would normally be for Guitar (you'd have to do Bass-like perfection to achieve reasonable scores, which totally alters the role of the Guitar player).

In summary - it just wrecks the gameplay, makes things more annoying and complicated than they should be and doesn't really provide all that much in the end.

[PCTraitor]

That never stopped people from playing the original Guitar Hero with their friends.

Yes it did, everyone said can you add bass instead? So they added bass in GH2. The requests for different instruments helped lead to Rockband. Why the sudden desire to regress back to Guitar Hero 1. Ridiculous!

[Ultrace]

True, GH5 allows 2 (or more) guitarists at the same time, but they are playing the same thing. There aren't rhythm and lead guitar parts, just guitar parts. Even if TB:RB allowed you TO play two guitars, it still wouldn't be true Beatles.
This is the correct answer. It doesn't matter how many lanes are included in GH5, there is no ability to play Lead, Bass and Rhythm guitar simultaneously. That ability has never been in any GH or RB game (GH2 and GH3 allowed you to play Rhythm guitar on some songs, but on those songs, Bass was not an option.)

I also agree with the poster who mentioned the fun option of rhythm. Watch someone playing TBRB and listen (and watch) John's bits on guitar. This would be a very boring piece to play on most songs. Yes, it would be more true to nature, but that's actually not always a good thing.

[HeadHunter67]

Why the sudden desire to regress back to Guitar Hero 1. Ridiculous!
I wasn't indicating a desire to regress - I was simply stating that GH1 was a runaway hit in spite of the fact that both players have the same track.

So what makes RB better than the granddaddy of this genre? Innovation and new features, right? People wanted to play different instruments, and so rhythm guitar was added (something we don't have now) as well as bass. I guess people didn't find them so "boring" a few years ago or they wouldn't have requested them.

Then, when the concept of a full band game was announced, we had all these Luddites talking about how impossible it would be to fit two more tracks on the screen. I guess they were just short-sighted.

Now, when innovation has proven to be the factor that makes a rhythm game competitive, we have these same backwards people fighting to maintain the status quo. Instead of embracing the new possiblities that different instruments could bring, they argue against them.

Tell me again who's regressing?

[PCTraitor]

I wasn't indicating a desire to regress - I was simply stating that GH1 was a runaway hit in spite of the fact that both players have the same track.

So what makes RB better than the granddaddy of this genre? Innovation and new features, right? People wanted to play different instruments, and so rhythm guitar was added (something we don't have now) as well as bass. I guess people didn't find them so "boring" a few years ago or they wouldn't have requested them.

Then, when the concept of a full band game was announced, we had all these Luddites talking about how impossible it would be to fit two more tracks on the screen. I guess they were just short-sighted.

Now, when innovation has proven to be the factor that makes a rhythm game competitive, we have these same backwards people fighting to maintain the status quo. Instead of embracing the new possiblities that different instruments could bring, they argue against them.

Tell me again who's regressing?

Tracks duplicating is regressing. At this point the evolution should be graphics, expanding music libraries and animations.

Also, 4 tracks together even on a big screen is too cramped.

[HeadHunter67]

Tracks duplicating is regressing. At this point the evolution should be graphics, expanding music libraries and animations.
I agree, but I also think that adding new possibilities in the way of instuments would help, too. Regardless of what individuals may feel about the keyboard, a successful implementation would open up thousands of exceptional songs and artists to Rock Band.


Also, 4 tracks together even on a big screen is too cramped.
As they are done currently, perhaps. But as I said before, that's what people said about 4 tracks to begin with, before RB showed them how it's done. I would not be surprised if they found a way to get past that obstacle. Even if it's a long way off, they can allow players to choose what 4 tracks they want to play from however many different options they'll have. Wouldn't you rather play keyboard in Smokin' than guitar, for instance?

BTW, on a totally unrelated note - cool Space Ghost shirt. I remember the original cartoon from when I was a kid (but I think that Coast to Coast is way more entertaining). :cool:

[ericlhall]

Thanks to ChrisF & EricP at Harmonix for their thoughtful replies.

It's so nice to hear from them promptly, and be able to have a dialog about these things!

However, I would like to assert that omitting accurate Beatle play (if you exclude technical reasons) given that the game itself is presented fundamentally differently (a trip thru the Beatles Career, rather than a mere game) you lose the ability to sort of relate to actually "being" the Beatles. This seems especially accurate since you went to so much trouble to add harmony vocals.

In the other games it does not matter as much, but this game, this group, almost demands more fidelity to the true line up. It also allows you to experience a sense of how good they actually were as technical players.

Just as an example, on the morning of 9/9 we opened the box, set it all up, the 4 of us, having negotiated for months, tried to assume our agreed upon Beatles roles.. Imagine our confusion when we could not actually "be" the Beatles.

Thanks again for a great product, and I hope we might be able to receive a patch for this issue one day, even if it just was to allow two guitars to play the same parts. (at differing levels), even if we had to let Ringo sit out now and then.

Eric-

[nbalive2005]

Thanks to ChrisF & EricP at Harmonix for their thoughtful replies.

It's so nice to hear from them promptly, and be able to have a dialog about these things!

However, I would like to assert that omitting accurate Beatle play (if you exclude technical reasons) given that the game itself is presented fundamentally differently (a trip thru the Beatles Career, rather than a mere game) you lose the ability to sort of relate to actually "being" the Beatles. This seems especially accurate since you went to so much trouble to add harmony vocals.

In the other games it does not matter as much, but this game, this group, almost demands more fidelity to the true line up. It also allows you to experience a sense of how good they actually were as technical players.

Just as an example, on the morning of 9/9 we opened the box, set it all up, the 4 of us, having negotiated for months, tried to assume our agreed upon Beatles roles.. Imagine our confusion when we could not actually "be" the Beatles.

Thanks again for a great product, and I hope we might be able to receive a patch for this issue one day, even if it just was to allow two guitars to play the same parts. (at differing levels), even if we had to let Ringo sit out now and then.

Eric-
You strive and hope for "authenticity" yet you allow the drummer not to be part of the band

You see. Your being backwards

[ericlhall]

Well, I do understand that the odds of the game being rearchitected to allow 4 simultaneous players (plus Harmony Vocals), is a remote possibility, so it's merely a nod to the reality of the situation, and an attempt to be satisfied with what's doable.

[PCTraitor]

I agree, but I also think that adding new possibilities in the way of instuments would help, too. Regardless of what individuals may feel about the keyboard, a successful implementation would open up thousands of exceptional songs and artists to Rock Band.


As they are done currently, perhaps. But as I said before, that's what people said about 4 tracks to begin with, before RB showed them how it's done. I would not be surprised if they found a way to get past that obstacle. Even if it's a long way off, they can allow players to choose what 4 tracks they want to play from however many different options they'll have. Wouldn't you rather play keyboard in Smokin' than guitar, for instance?

BTW, on a totally unrelated note - cool Space Ghost shirt. I remember the original cartoon from when I was a kid (but I think that Coast to Coast is way more entertaining). :cool:

The thing I worry about is already happening in GH5. No one wants to play bass or sing and fewer people are playing drums. Also it's really apparent that Neversoft let the vocal system and drum charts slump because they figured (correctly) that everyone will just want to play guitar. Online bands want 4 guitars for optimum scoring where even drummers aren't invited are fairaly common and no way would they consider a bassist.

The other instruments of a band all have something to offer and are great fun. Those instruments should be explored and treated as equals to all the other instruments. Part of me understands the desire for a rhythm guitar, but I think it would take away from other more important things and I feel that these aren't traditional arcade games as much as they are interactive music appreciation experiences.

I totally agree that the Beatles game is meant for you to sing and play an instrument at the same time. I love doing it and I'm all for people learning to do it. So while that can add difficulty to easier to play parts, not everyone is inclined to do that.

[gamegyro56]

I find it hard to imagine that the folks at Apple Corps would agree to release this game and have it be actually unplayable in the same way the band actually played.

Well, as John Lennon said, "Imagine."

[HMXSlappy]

There's one other reason we didn't take this approach that I forgot this in my initial reply. In some cases, guitars were recorded together, and the audio-forensics techniques we used to extract individual instruments from a single recording can't easily distinguish between two guitars. In those cases there is no reliable way to produce separate audio for each guitar.

We wouldn't just author the notes for each instrument as a fallback; we didn't want a situation where people play instruments and can't hear their own individual contributions. At that point I think you end up taking the "music" out of a "music game."

That said, I think the main reason we abandoned this was because so many songs would have had a second part containing long stretches of silence. Our decision was that it wouldn't be as fun for all players in practice as it was in theory.

I say all of this as the person who spent some time considering the merit of this feature during pre-production. I was a big fan of it until I started to work through its limitations. Then I wasn't so much of a fan. :)

Thanks -- ChrisF

[ericlhall]

There's one other reason we didn't take this approach that I forgot this in my initial reply. In some cases, guitars were recorded together, and the audio-forensics techniques we used to extract individual instruments from a single recording can't easily distinguish between two guitars. In those cases there is no reliable way to produce separate audio for each guitar.

We wouldn't just author the notes for each instrument as a fallback; we didn't want a situation where people play instruments and can't hear their own individual contributions. At that point I think you end up taking the "music" out of a "music game."

That said, I think the main reason we abandoned this was because so many songs would have had a second part containing long stretches of silence. Our decision was that it wouldn't be as fun for all players in practice as it was in theory.

I say all of this as the person who spent some time considering the merit of this feature during pre-production. I was a big fan of it until I started to work through its limitations. Then I wasn't so much of a fan. :)

Thanks -- ChrisF

I totally understand the source material limitations. Thanks for the additional clarification.

Please consider this a request for allowing any combination of instruments, even if it's the same parts playing, at differing levels.

It seems to me that allowing that feature, would be something that could be addressed in a patch..

BTW, I thought the auto calibration feature with the new instruments, was genius! It truly and quickly solved the constant issues we have from moving the xbox around from CRT to Plasma to LCD screens.

E-

T

[robinh]

I bought the Lennon Rickenbacker, Harrison Gretsch, and the Hofner bass, with drums and mic. Sure would be nice for 4 people to play these at the same time. Only the Beatles could do that. Robin

[Vikingnomad]

As for most of the people here have stated the game that ends with 5 allows for 4 highways and I'm sure that with some code addition for the vocals we could have REALLY experienced what it was like to Be a Beatle....as for the rhythm guitar being boring raise the diffculty setting to make that more of a challenge...and we have a home run....it just floors we that with the long wait and anticipation of this games arrival that one of the Beatles has to be left out when you play the game...otherwise I love this game and the music is great.....can't wait for more music to be available for download.

[Mex]

I totally understand the source material limitations. Thanks for the additional clarification.

Please consider this a request for allowing any combination of instruments, even if it's the same parts playing, at differing levels.
It seems to me that allowing that feature, would be something that could be addressed in a patch..

BTW, I thought the auto calibration feature with the new instruments, was genius! It truly and quickly solved the constant issues we have from moving the xbox around from CRT to Plasma to LCD screens.

E-

T

Wait I thought we were going for realism here? Any combination of instruments would be contradictory wouldn't it?

BTW the auto-calibration you speak of was introduced with Rock Band 2.

[xXjAmEZXx]

if you wanna play 2 guitars and bass then go buy gh5, problem solved! :p

[HeadHunter67]

Well, to be fair, people shouldn't have to buy GH5 to replicate the lineup that the Beatles used regularly. ;)

[bob_shiltz]

ChrisF/HMX Reps:

Feel free to forward our comments to people higher up if you think they can make a difference.

Please give serious consideration to the suggestions that Eric Hall made. It was incredibly disappointing that we were unable to play four instruments. We specifically bought the limited edition for the Hofner/RB2 drums and the Gretsch and Rickenbaker guitars. Imagine our disappointment when we had some friends over for a Beatles party and learned that we were restricted to two guitarists, a drummer, and a vocalist.

I'm not a purist by any means; I just want to have fun. I understand that the logistics behind rewriting the RB2 game engine to show 4 controllers and coming up with keymaps for 4 controllers gets really expensive and time consuming really fast. Let's be honest, HDTV market penetration is still easily eclipsed by SDTV (although the inflection point is probably coming in the next 2 years). Modifying any game engine takes a lot of time and money. Coming up with keymaps for a 3rd guitar instrument in the "purist" kind of way hurts gameplay, is sometimes impossible due to limitations in source material, and would further delay game release. So since I want games sooner and since HMX doesn't want to sell a niche product, we should compromise on the 3 instrument implementation (Although I would argue that the RB3 engine should assume 720p output with a graceful fallback for anyone running SDTV).

If we can only have vocals and 3 instruments because HMX didn't want to rewrite the RB game engine for a single title, that's fine. But please, don't force us to have drums in the mix. If 3 of us want to use a guitar controller because we want to, I don't see why we should have to draw straws to decide who gets shafted with the drums. Personally, I hate the drums. They're loud, uncomfortable, and put my feet at an awkward position. Plus I suck at drums.

I don't know the difference between a bass, rhythm, lead, and whatever else. All I know is that I see colors and I like matching them with buttons on a guitar-like controller. Having an "authentic" set of notes on each guitar (I think you guys call this a chart) isn't as important as being able to choose the instrument you want to play. What's the problem with letting 3 people play the same set of notes at various difficulties? Maybe it takes away from what makes Rock Band Rock Band, but it also takes away from what TB:RB could have been.

My main point is that I see no harm in allowing us to play any 3 instruments we choose. For TB:RB, HMX is selling 3 replica guitars, drums, and microphones. So if you bought all of the replica Beatles gear, you can't use them all at once! That's ridiculous! (And in my opinion, should be addressed with a software update)

For me, I bought a PS3 slim specifically for this game. I blew about $750 getting things ready for TB:RB, of which $450 went strictly to HMX by way of amazon. (I suppose now I also have a blu ray player, but TB:RB hasn't been ejected since we got it.) I'm pretty furious that I can't sit down with a couple of friends and rock out on guitars. Knowing what I know now, would I do it again? Absolutely. We're talking about The Beatles, after all.

Rob

[Dave923923]

I'm personally fine with just one guitar track.