Calibration Tips?

[DeusTrinitas]

Well, I'm trying to get everything perfectly calibrated, but I have a couple of questions.

On the first calibration page, I try to put the target where I hear the click, but the problem is that I tend to hear the click at different places on the screen. I'm pretty sure it's just my mind playing tricks on me, but it messes me up when trying to calibrate. Any tips for this?

On the second calibration page, am I supposed to time my button presses with the beat of the click or try to time them when the mark passes through the target? If I don't look at the screen and time my presses entirely with the beat, I always get a different result than when I try to time them by looking at the target. Which is the correct way?

[BearFan51]

Well, I'm trying to get everything perfectly calibrated, but I have a couple of questions.

On the first calibration page, I try to put the target where I hear the click, but the problem is that I tend to hear the click at different places on the screen. I'm pretty sure it's just my mind playing tricks on me, but it messes me up when trying to calibrate. Any tips for this?

On the second calibration page, am I supposed to time my button presses with the beat of the click or try to time them when the mark passes through the target? If I don't look at the screen and time my presses entirely with the beat, I always get a different result than when I try to time them by looking at the target. Which is the correct way?

Before calibrating, make sure your dolby digital is disabled in the game, and if you are using your sound system, make sure it's in "stereo", or "direct", "pure direct" whichever your system has, just as long as it's not dolby pro-logic, or DD.

On the first page......Try squinting your eyes until things look fuzzy, not sure why, but it seemed to help keep my eyes from playing tricks on me.

Second page........Don't use the X button. Hit the green pad (or strum, for guitar) exactly in time with the click. After it's done, take note of that correction value. Use the circle button to go back and repeat the second page calibration. You'll notice the numbers are different. Repeat this step 3-4 times and take the average as your final value. (unless you have 1 number that's drastically different, then ditch that one)

If you are within 4-5ms with all your calibrations, you are definitely in the ballpark.


After you have things calibrated, you can try re-enabling the processing, (DD, pro-logic) and see if it screws up the timing. It should be fine, though.

That's all I got.:D
Good luck.

[DeusTrinitas]

Thanks for the tips. :-)

[Zechman]

On the second calibration page, am I supposed to time my button presses with the beat of the click or try to time them when the mark passes through the target?
Well, assuming you've done the first calibration correctly, it won't matter. That first calibration is strictly to get your audio and video in sync. The second one is for determining how far behind the console the A/V is (and is the more important one).

I found that hitting the drum pads was more accurate than anything else.

Also, you should do the calibration with all of your TV and sound system settings exactly as they will be when you play the game--if you plan on using Dolby Digital when playing, don't turn it off for the calibration process.

Finally, think of calibration as an ongoing process. You should play the game a little and try adjust the values manually to see if you consistently do better on a given setting. I doubt most people can tell the difference in a 5ms delay (I know I can't), but something that subtle could come out in your playing.

--Dwayne

[DeusTrinitas]

Well, assuming you've done the first calibration correctly, it won't matter. That first calibration is strictly to get your audio and video in sync.

I see your point.

[BearFan51]

Well, assuming you've done the first calibration correctly, it won't matter. That first calibration is strictly to get your audio and video in sync. The second one is for determining how far behind the console the A/V is (and is the more important one).

Um.....huh? How you perform the second calibration won't matter, but it's the more important one?


Also, you should do the calibration with all of your TV and sound system settings exactly as they will be when you play the game--if you plan on using Dolby Digital when playing, don't turn it off for the calibration process.

Finally, think of calibration as an ongoing process. You should play the game a little and try adjust the values manually to see if you consistently do better on a given setting. I doubt most people can tell the difference in a 5ms delay (I know I can't), but something that subtle could come out in your playing.

Just curious, why would you introduce more delay by keeping the DD on? (that is what DD and pro-logic do, delay the rear channels, giving the illusion of larger room size, and other effects) The HMX people here have already said this is causing timing issues. Seems like shooting at a moving target. Calibration DVD's tell you to turn off additional processing while calibrating as well. I'm curious as to your reasoning here.

I don't think this should be an ongoing process, either. You can fine tune it, but if you got it close the first time, you should be within 5ms of perfect alignment. (very, very hard to distinguish) This ought to be plenty close enough, even in expert mode.

[Zechman]

Um.....huh? How you perform the second calibration won't matter, but it's the more important one? Um, yes. Read my post in the context of answering his question which I quoted. If you've done the first calibration correctly, your audio and video will be in sync with each other. So it won't matter whether you try to time your button presses in time with what you see or in time with what you hear. You will have already synced those up to happen at the exact same moment (but after some undetermined delay from when the console thinks it happens, which you are trying to determine in the second, IMHO more important, calibration).


Just curious, why would you introduce more delay by keeping the DD on?
I see two ways to read that question, and from your other comments I think you're asking "Why do you think that DD will introduce delay because I don't think it will?" rather than "Why would you deliberately introduce more delay by turning on DD during calibration?"

If I got that wrong, please tell me.


(that is what DD and pro-logic do, delay the rear channels, giving the illusion of larger room size, and other effects) The HMX people here have already said this is causing timing issues. Seems like shooting at a moving target. Calibration DVD's tell you to turn off additional processing while calibrating as well. I'm curious as to your reasoning here.
Dolby Digital is VERY different from Pro-Logic--it is has six independent, discrete audio channels (the subwoofer one is limited, thus the "5.1 channel" shorthand) and can play sounds out the rear speakers only while the front Left/Right/Center are silent. Pro-Logic cannot do that because it constructs the sound for the rear channels using data from the L/R front channels as you describe.

Some sound systems are going to be faster at decoding the data and doing the digital/analog conversion than others. The difference might be less than 5ms, but it might not be. If you intend to play with DD on, you should calibrate with DD on to account for the difference, if there is any at all. If there is none, then it won't matter.

And I suppose a larger point is that if there is a difference, then that's an argument for always playing with DD turned off.

As for the calibration DVD's, there are different reasons for that, and it's more complex than ought to be in this thread. The short version is that after a system is calibrated, most of those things aren't needed to produce accurate sound or picture.

The reason the rules are different here is because games are different from movie-watching. With a movie, it's okay if both audio and video are delayed by some large amount, so long as they are the same. It's one-way. With games, you need to always minimize the delay because it's not one-way--it's a feedback loop from console to A/V to eyes/ears, to controller button, back to console. That loop has to be a quick as possible.


I don't think this should be an ongoing process, either. You can fine tune it, but if you got it close the first time, you should be within 5ms of perfect alignment. (very, very hard to distinguish) This ought to be plenty close enough, even in expert mode.YMMV. My experience was that I needed to tweak it a bit even after I thought I had it right, because I was able to improve my accuracy (a little) by doing the tweaking. I guess another way of saying it is don't assume you will get it right on the first try.
If you do happen to nail it on the first try, then you're right--you won't, by definition, improve anything by tweaking it further from there.

--Dwayne

[dougpr]

You definitely want the first calibration to be as close to 0 as possible.

Having a delay of 70ms will screw you up on drum fills (this is what my Yamaha soundbar produces for audio delay. I use my TV speakers because they do not introduce this lag and only has a 20ms setting on calibration.)

The reason why you want to turn off all processing and get the audio calibration down as low as possible is because having an audio delay set in the calibration works great for guitar, vocals, bass, and the drum parts that are note charted.

But when you get to the fills, you're hitting the drums and that exact hit is creating a sound during the fill. If you have an audio delay, it causes your fill sounds to be heard after you're hitting them on the drums, which won't be in time with the music that has been adjusted to the delayed setting. So basically your fills will all sound like crap no matter what because it will be offbeat with the music.

Therefore getting the audio delay to near 0 is crucial.

[BearFan51]

Um, yes. Read my post in the context of answering his question which I quoted. If you've done the first calibration correctly, your audio and video will be in sync with each other. So it won't matter whether you try to time your button presses in time with what you see or in time with what you hear. You will have already synced those up to happen at the exact same moment (but after some undetermined delay from when the console thinks it happens, which you are trying to determine in the second, IMHO more important, calibration).

I agree, in your post that I quoted, it was confusing without your explanation of what didn't matter. Confusion cleared.



I see two ways to read that question, and from your other comments I think you're asking "Why do you think that DD will introduce delay because I don't think it will?" rather than "Why would you deliberately introduce more delay by turning on DD during calibration?"

If I got that wrong, please tell me.

The latter. Not all receivers are created equal. Some lower cost products cut corners, and I'm sure decoding chips would be fair game here. I'm not an EE, but I can see some systems having more latency than others.

I think turning off any and all processing will help level the playing field for everyone, until they can get a good calibration, or a patch, whichever comes first.

There's a multitude of variables at play here,(cable lengths, differing connections, quality of AVR's, tv's,360 vs. PS3, etc.) and if though these discussions, we can find something to help the ones not enjoying the game, we all win. (no more whining threads...well fewer, maybe.:D)



Dolby Digital is VERY different from Pro-Logic--it is has six independent, discrete audio channels (the subwoofer one is limited, thus the "5.1 channel" shorthand) and can play sounds out the rear speakers only while the front Left/Right/Center are silent. Pro-Logic cannot do that because it constructs the sound for the rear channels using data from the L/R front channels as you describe.

Some sound systems are going to be faster at decoding the data and doing the digital/analog conversion than others. The difference might be less than 5ms, but it might not be. If you intend to play with DD on, you should calibrate with DD on to account for the difference, if there is any at all. If there is none, then it won't matter.

And I suppose a larger point is that if there is a difference, then that's an argument for always playing with DD turned off.

As for the calibration DVD's, there are different reasons for that, and it's more complex than ought to be in this thread. The short version is that after a system is calibrated, most of those things aren't needed to produce accurate sound or picture.

The reason the rules are different here is because games are different from movie-watching. With a movie, it's okay if both audio and video are delayed by some large amount, so long as they are the same. It's one-way. With games, you need to always minimize the delay because it's not one-way--it's a feedback loop from console to A/V to eyes/ears, to controller button, back to console. That loop has to be a quick as possible.

Oh yes, I'm aware of the differences, I grouped them together merely, as processing. (and as a potential for latency)

I tried calibrating both ways, for me, results were better (faster) with it off. I haven't tried re-enabling it during play yet, as I've been busy working on a pedal mod. (micro switch based)


YMMV. My experience was that I needed to tweak it a bit even after I thought I had it right, because I was able to improve my accuracy (a little) by doing the tweaking. I guess another way of saying it is don't assume you will get it right on the first try.
If you do happen to nail it on the first try, then you're right--you won't, by definition, improve anything by tweaking it further from there.

--Dwayne

Oh absolutely, I still had to nudge a bit, here and there.

This is good stuff, let's keep this one going, we might get to the bottom of this mess yet.:cool:

[cm8888]

So I've had RB since late Nov. and I've run the calibration tools a number of times and consistently came up with the same settings. The game seemed quite close to perfect to me as far as lining up the strikes on the drum pad to the beat of the music audio-wise. It did seem that the audio was slightly behind the action on the pads, but I guess I gradually got used to it and adapted, and noticed it less and less.

So I was excited to have my cousin visit from out of town last night. He's been drumming for 25 years and plays in a band with his work friends. this would be the first "real" drummer we've had over to play Rock band with us, so I figured he would naturally do really well.

As soon as he started, he was missing almost every beat, clearly hitting behind what was showing on the screen. I could see that he was playing by ear (what he heard). We even switched to an easy song on easy setting and it didn't help much as he couldn't adjust to playing ahead of the beat that he was hearing.

We ran the calibration with him doing the second one (hitting the green pad), and he came up with the same measurement that I had before, so this didn't solve anything.

Finally, I tried playing the drums and on an easy part, I closed my eyes to see what would happen if I played to the "audio" more than the screen. I missed the notes like he did.

So I tried somehting I should have tried a long time ago: manually play with the second lag setting back and forth to see how it affected the game. First, I tried moving it from -20 ms to -40 ms. That really made it worse. So I moved it to 0 ms lag. That made it a lot better! I moved it to +10 ms lag and it is pretty much bang on now and my cousin suddenly "got" the game.

I noticed that playing drums became so much easier than before, but I did have to make an adjustment to how I played guitar because I was playing "early" for the music with the new settings, and have to get used to playing "with" the music now.

I know that this is nothing really new to what's been suggested, but my lesson is that I trusted my measurements on the calibration exercise too much and had to just try moving the slider back and forth to accurately find the sweet spot.

The real surprising thing is that I was on the wrong side of 0 lag!

I'm glad my cousin came over because I don't think I would have ever realized this without that happening.

btw THANKS HARMONIX for an awesome game!

[MGpet]

Black Magic method of Manual Rockband Calibration thread:

http://www.rockband.com/forums/showthread.php?t=19520&highlight=calibration