Why is "Suddenly I See" in L:RB?

[FreezeRokk]

These are the lyrics from the chorus

"Suddenly I see (Suddenly I see)
This is what I wanna be
Suddenly I see (Suddenly I see)
Why the hell it means so much to me"

I thought this was a family friendly game.

[instantdeath999]

I'd say because most kids know what hell is, since we spend time scaring them with it...

[FreezeRokk]

I'd say because most kids know what hell is, since we spend to time scaring them with it...

That sounds weird, because I remember seeing somewhere here that there was song that was omitted because it said "Oh Lord." Both are very christian and I don't see why one would be allowed in and the other not.

[Soy_Bob]

I would argue that hell is being used as an adjective to further the interrogative (Why?) than using it as a noun referencing the place where sinners so.

I guess this is a fair and kid-friendly usage of the word.

[LuigiHann]

I think that there's a different set of standards for on-disc songs versus DLC filtered songs.

[SirRobin1tothe3]

I'm more confused by Monster, which seems to be blatantly about hallucinogens or dissociatives.

[elijahbarnes65]

i think most kids have already heard the song since its on so you think you can dance and american idol when people get kicked off. i also couldnt see the song selling well as normal dlc so lego could have been the only way to get it in the game.

[FreezeRokk]

I think that there's a different set of standards for on-disc songs versus DLC filtered songs.

That's terrible.

Also, Caprici di Diablo was also blocked out, I assumed because it said "Diablo" in it since it has no lyrics. I don't see why there should be such a double standard.

[LuigiHann]

On-disc songs were chosen by TT Games and have passed through the ESRB, so they factored into the game's E10+ rating (it probably could have gotten an E rating if they had played it totally safe).

It's not clear exactly who's in charge of filtering the DLC, but it seems that it's a different set of people (most likely just the audio team at HMX), and for the most part they appear to be erring on the very safe side, and tagging anything that might be remotely controversial. Why? Who knows.

[T-Hybrid]

That sounds weird, because I remember seeing somewhere here that there was song that was omitted because it said "Oh Lord."
Any speculation as to why some songs are included and some are not is just that, speculation.

[Cliphead]

The game is rated a family-friendly E10+ (the song is also in the E-rated DS game) and the ESRB notes the use of the expletive "hell" on their web site. It's barely even a curse word; people are blowing this way out of proportion.

[MattyT]

The game is rated a family-friendly E10+ (the song is also in the E-rated DS game) and the ESRB notes the use of the expletive "hell" on their web site. It's barely even a curse word; people are blowing this way out of proportion.

This. Also, the same reason that "You Give Love a Bad Name" was on-disc, despite the "You promised me heaven, but put me through hell" lyric. A-OK.

[captainsamus]

I'm a little dissapointed that no one replied to OP with

"Why the hell does it mean so much to you?"

[MattyT]

I'm a little dissapointed that no one replied to OP with

"Why the hell does it mean so much to you?"

Now I'm disappointed in myself for not thinking of that. :(

[mjlambert1]

These are the lyrics from the chorus

"Suddenly I see (Suddenly I see)
This is what I wanna be
Suddenly I see (Suddenly I see)
Why the hell it means so much to me"

I thought this was a family friendly game.

Did you complain when it wasn't censored on family friendly radio?

[Mister_Derp]

I'd say because most kids know what hell is, since we spend time scaring them with it...
I loled.

[Rocket2Russia]

OMG! Such an obscene word, mentioning a figurative concept of punishment for evil in Christianity! The HEATHENS!

People (Americans especially) need to stop being such prudes about EVERYTHING.

[AviStetto]

These are the lyrics from the chorus

"Suddenly I see (Suddenly I see)
This is what I wanna be
Suddenly I see (Suddenly I see)
Why the hell it means so much to me"

I thought this was a family friendly game.

I agree that this song whould not have been included in the game. I put it right alongside Bad Reputation, which is included in Band Hero, as songs that don't fit a family friendly E-10 (10-year old - elementary school age) game.


Did you complain when it wasn't censored on family friendly radio?

It is a song that will cause me to change the radio station when it comes on. It will also cause me to cancel a Mystery Setlist if it comes up while playing with the kids. I also find it annoying that it is one of the most common background songs that plays in the Rock Den.

Overall, I find the set list to be okay. That is the one song that bugs me the most.

I wish there were some way to blackball (or delete) specific songs.

[XacharyCross]

I agree that this song whould not have been included in the game. I put it right alongside Bad Reputation, which is included in Band Hero, as songs that don't fit a family friendly E-10 (10-year old - elementary school age) game.


Hey, it could be Bad Reputation (Live)

[kingtonyx]

"Suddenly I See" is one of the most fun songs in the game imo

[FreezeRokk]

Did you complain when it wasn't censored on family friendly radio?

I'd never heard the song before. So no.

The only reason I even brought this up because of the differences in on-disc and DLC censoring.


"Suddenly I See" is one of the most fun songs in the game imo

Thank you for not saying "funnest."

[jeccaneko]

Better question: when are people going to stop making these threads?

[Rocket2Russia]

Better question: when are people going to stop making these threads?

Exactly. It's not like we can change it, and we're certainly not going to have sympathy on you or commiserate with you as you shelter your children from such a harmless thing for such a stupid reason, but, eh, to each his own.

[Runesmith]

Because this song was a huge pop hit that lots of people both young and old alike seem to enjoy?

[kate_childers]

It's on there because she is AWESOME. quit complaining.

[solidsnakejt]

These are the lyrics from the chorus

"Suddenly I see (Suddenly I see)
This is what I wanna be
Suddenly I see (Suddenly I see)
Why the hell it means so much to me"

I thought this was a family friendly game.

why the hell am i here - correct
you're going to hell - not correct

[FreezeRokk]

Better question: when are people going to stop making these threads?
Exactly. It's not like we can change it, and we're certainly not going to have sympathy on you or commiserate with you as you shelter your children from such a harmless thing for such a stupid reason, but, eh, to each his own.

That's actually a pretty dumb question. People are going to keep making these threads because 1. it doesn't make sense that a family friendly game would have something like this in its lyrics. 2. There are other songs that were blocked out with even less than that. And as long as people notice these discrepancies, more threads will be made.

Also, I don't have children, and sympathy and commiserate mean the same thing, so you don't need to use both of them.


It's on there because she is AWESOME. quit complaining.

Awesomeness aside, one of the criteria of the songs passing the "filter" is no expletives, which I believe this song fails. Quit making bad excuses.

[Cliphead]

I'm pretty sure none of the people complaining about this actually have kids.

[LuigiHann]

Awesomeness aside, one of the criteria of the songs passing the "filter" is no expletives, which I believe this song fails. Quit making bad excuses.

We honestly don't know anything about the filter's criteria beyond the following:



Family Friendly

“Family Friendly” content may be suitable for players of all ages. These tracks may contain the infrequent use of mild language.

From here: http://www.rockband.com/song-ratings

I would say that this song falls into the "mild language" category. It pushes the border a little bit, but we don't really know where they draw the line.

[Cliphead]

Also, the rating on the back cover mentions "mild lyrics," and quoth the ESRB's web site:

During some cutscenes, Lego characters engage in not so civil behavior: a hotel room is trashed; a character belches loudly into a microphone; and a dinosaur destroys an outhouse, leaving a solitary figure stranded on a toilet. Song lyrics occasionally reference violence (e.g., "Somebody's gonna die . . . My ex will start a fight"), use the expletive "hell," and seemingly allude to substance abuse (e.g., "Brain fried tonight through misuse . . . Without these pills you're let loose . . . Is it a monster?")

[SirRobin1tothe3]

XD @ "seemingly allude"

I have no problem with Suddenly I See but Monster has me scratching my head to no end.

[Parodygm]

These are the lyrics from the chorus

"Suddenly I see (Suddenly I see)
This is what I wanna be
Suddenly I see (Suddenly I see)
Why the hell it means so much to me"

I thought this was a family friendly game.

With regards to these continual threads, here's my family friendly answer.

FECK OFF.

[HauntingYourKids]

Because TT Games is a British game developer and "Suddenly I See" is KT Tunstall's biggest UK hit.

...oh, it the whole "hell" thing, right. Um... you know, "Black Horse and the Cherry Tree" is Tunstall's 4th biggest UK hit, so... yeah, I'm going nowhere with these ellipses.

[kiggidykev]

Better question: when are people going to stop making these threads?

My thoughts exactly. I honestly hope no one is losing sleep over the inclusion of certain songs in Lego Rock Band.

And if you are, just don't buy it and save your family from hearing a minor cuss word.

[Shorty11857]

Because TT Games are British and most British people don't care about the use of the word hell. It's one of the most popular songs of the last few years, it got tonnes of radio play and pretty much every kid knows it so who cares? It's an awesome song

[Rocket2Russia]

That's actually a pretty dumb question. People are going to keep making these threads because 1. it doesn't make sense that a family friendly game would have something like this in its lyrics. 2. There are other songs that were blocked out with even less than that. And as long as people notice these discrepancies, more threads will be made.

Also, I don't have children, and sympathy and commiserate mean the same thing, so you don't need to use both of them.

It interests me that you choose to argue over semantics instead of simply arguing a point. Does it make you feel good when you go off on stupid tangents to make yourself look superior in some way?

And it's a completely valid question. Why are people so concerned with it? You are not required to have your children say the word to parents [maybe have them say HECK, ever though of that?], and if you don't have kids, then you're just being a troll for the sake of being a troll by posting this thread.

By posting a thread on this subject you ask for debate on the subject and discussion, but it seems to me that the point of your post is to question the morals or standards of HMX by complaining to other posters who have no power to change it, and most of us will not sit here and say "Oh, you're right. How dare these heathens use a minor curse word that is barely a curse word to begin with in this game? In the future they shouldn't try to make a family-friendly game, because they obviously suck at it."

So stop *****ing about it. If you care so much, PM a HMX team member/lodge a complaint. See how far that gets you. I wish you luck.

[T-Hybrid]

I'm pretty sure none of the people complaining about this actually have kids.
It's actually funny. Those who complain about songs IN the game typically appear to be those without kids...while those with kids actually complain about the filter being too rigid.


Awesomeness aside, one of the criteria of the songs passing the "filter" is no expletives, which I believe this song fails. Quit making bad excuses.
Actually the "filter" has no defined rules. At all.

[Jdurgit]

Kind of funny, but I can't recall "Hell" being an expletive. Christ, you hear it used on Nickelodeon and Disney channel on occassion! It's also not a "Christian only" reference. Look across all religions, and they all reference "hell". Frankly, in sects where "hell" would still be considered an expletive, the act of playing videogames would be "wrong and immoral" so it's a moot point.

[FreezeRokk]

It interests me that you choose to argue over semantics instead of simply arguing a point. Does it make you feel good when you go off on stupid tangents to make yourself look superior in some way?

You'd be completely right, except I did argue my point.



And it's a completely valid question. Why are people so concerned with it? You are not required to have your children say the word to parents [maybe have them say HECK, ever though of that?], and if you don't have kids, then you're just being a troll for the sake of being a troll by posting this thread.

And I already explained this part.



By posting a thread on this subject you ask for debate on the subject and discussion, but it seems to me that the point of your post is to question the morals or standards of HMX by complaining to other posters who have no power to change it, and most of us will not sit here and say "Oh, you're right. How dare these heathens use a minor curse word that is barely a curse word to begin with in this game? In the future they shouldn't try to make a family-friendly game, because they obviously suck at it."

So stop *****ing about it. If you care so much, PM a HMX team member/lodge a complaint. See how far that gets you. I wish you luck.

Lol. Just curious, but by me questioning the morals and standards of HMX, doesn't that bring up debate and discussion? Kind of like we're doing now. It's pretty obvious what the point of my thread was, I believe I said it in the OP, and you just said it yourself.

I never suggested that anyone should change anything, all I was doing was pointing out a flaw in this family friendly game, and in some of my other posts why some songs were filtered out for the same reason or even less.

So stop *****ing about it. :)

[T-Hybrid]

all I was doing was pointing out a flaw in this family friendly game...
It's not a flaw, it's just a difference in opinion. Heck, if somebody came on here and said they were offended by the inclusion of any song with the letter "e" you'd call them crazy.

[LuigiHann]

The inclusion of the song is strange. It is a strange thing. That's all it is, though, strange. It IS worth noticing, but I don't understand how there's rumblings of an argument in this thread, since there's nothing to argue about.

[T-Hybrid]

The inclusion of the song is strange. It is a strange thing. That's all it is, though, strange.
But that's what I don't get...why is it strange? Because of "hell"? It's in the ESRB description.

Heck, I heard the word "jackass" on Nick a few times in the past.

[JPSChampagne]

It's strange because DLC songs were omitted for less. It's like... Couldn't they find 45 songs with absolutely no, even light profanity in them?

[LuigiHann]

But that's what I don't get...why is it strange? Because of "hell"? It's in the ESRB description.

Heck, I heard the word "jackass" on Nick a few times in the past.

Yes, it's strange because of the word "hell." It wouldn't need to be in the ESRB description if they hadn't included that song in the game.

A big part of the appeal to a kid-friendly Rock Band is that parents can let their kids sing the songs without worrying about the kid singing any bad words, so it is just strange to see they chose to put in a song with "why the hell" in the chorus, so that some parents WILL worry about the kids singing it. I do agree that it's a relatively light-hearted and largely inoffensive usage, but it's still strange to see it a kid's game.

[Mex]

Hell.
69.
Babyjunk.

[hiimSMAP]

The song was in Thrillville which is rated E10+ also.

[wcarnation]

People more upset about "hell" in this usage and less upset towards "So What" and "Girls & Boys" has some priority problems, I think.

[Cliphead]

I don't think anybody's actually upset over this. They're just trying to stir controversy where none really exists.

[Jglaubman]

I don't think anybody's actually upset over this. They're just trying to stir controversy where none really exists.

This! From skimming through this thread, it doesn't appear that even one person is complaining about this.

[CONAN9845]

People more upset about "hell" in this usage and less upset towards "So What" and "Girls & Boys" has some priority problems, I think.I have no children yet, and am only playing the game because I like Rock Band... And Lego games, for that matter. It doesn't matter to me the content of any of the songs.

That being said, I'd agree with this post. The problem is that people pay more attention to specific instances of words that they hear, and not to the whole picture.

If parents were to take a step back, and look at some of the lyrics that are actually present in quite a few of the songs, then I'd bet use of the word "hell" would no longer be the issue.

[kingtonyx]

People more upset about "hell" in this usage and less upset towards "So What" and "Girls & Boys" has some priority problems, I think.

What's wrong with "Girls & Boys"?

[T-Hybrid]

What's wrong with "Girls & Boys"?
Lyrically nothing. But the overall "message" of the song is something people could disagree with.

The poster was mostly using those songs as an example of where somebody simply concerned about "hell" is missing the overall big picture when it comes to other songs.

Because I actually agree, Tunstall's use of "hell" in "Suddenly I See" is nothing comparred to the overall content of Pink's "So What" which sings about drinking away rent money and picking fights.

[Sargehalo51]

I have no kids, so for me the content is not an issue. But, I can't for the life of me understand how "So What" is a family friendly song.

[T-Hybrid]

"So What" is family friendly because there's really nothing excessively violent about it. Sure she sings about starting fights...but it's just that...there's no graphic descriptions of violence, just "I wanna start a fight."

[Sargehalo51]

It"s about the break-up of her marriage and her reaction to it. That over-all theme doesn't seem family friendly to me (and I actually like the song).

[lanky316]

It's the balancing act isn't it? The song was a huge hit from an artist big with pre/teen girls. In that sense it should obviously be there but questionable on just how grey it is. Though The ESRB do acknowledge it was a borderline case.

[Soror_YZBL]

These are the lyrics from the chorus

"Suddenly I see (Suddenly I see)
This is what I wanna be
Suddenly I see (Suddenly I see)
Why the hell it means so much to me"

I thought this was a family friendly game.

"family" doesn't mean "christian".

[Sargehalo51]

It's the balancing act isn't it? The song was a huge hit from an artist big with pre/teen girls. In that sense it should obviously be there but questionable on just how grey it is. Though The ESRB do acknowledge it was a borderline case.

Very good point, she is a very popular artist with the target audience and certainly deserves her place in the game. Probably could have chosen a more suitable song from the many she has released though.

[AviStetto]

This thread has gotten a bit long to reply to each individual post, so let me summerize my thoughts/opinions on this song:

I AM a parent. I am in my early forties and my children are 9 and 11 - both girls. We enjoy playing games as family. It is my responsibility as a parent to supervise what my children are exposed to, whenever I can. I can't control what they see or hear when I am not around, but I can exert infulence over what happens in my home. I am not asking the game companies or other entertainment industries to do that for me - it's not their responsibility.

I understand that the game is reated E-10, which means that the ESRB has decided that it is acceptable for Everyone 10 years old and up. The ESRB guidelines allow for "mild language" in an E-10 games and "why the hell" fits that definition of mild language.

I joined the original poster in expressing my concerns over the inclusion of this song in these forums because it is probably the best place to express them, short of contacting TT/HMX directly.

My concern over the phrase "why the hell" is that not only is it something that my children hear, but they are being encourage to say, repeatedly, while singing the song. In my opinion, that makes it a bit more offensive.

There are other songs that for some may have more questionable content. The differences for me are that, unlike in other songs, this isn't something subtle or may have multiple interpretations; the song is one of the most frequently played songs in the Rock Den; and in my experience, it tends to show up more often in our mystery setlists.

Overall, I am very happy with Lego Rock Band, and have been encouraging my firends who have children and like to play Rock Band to get this version. The filtered song lists and charming Lego graphics coupled with the lack of some of the more extreme artwork and rock-themed outfits make this a much better version of Rock Band for families to play.

-Avi Stetto

[T-Hybrid]

My concern over the phrase "why the hell" is that not only is it something that my children hear, but they are being encourage to say, repeatedly, while singing the song. In my opinion, that makes it a bit more offensive.
But if you were willing to accept a mild amount of language by purchasing LEGO Rock Band in the first place, weren't you also doing so knowing that one aspect of the game is that those playing it will be repeating those lyrics out loud if they choose to be a vocalist?

[AviStetto]

But if you were willing to accept a mild amount of language by purchasing LEGO Rock Band in the first place, weren't you also doing so knowing that one aspect of the game is that those playing it will be repeating those lyrics out loud if they choose to be a vocalist?

Yes, I was willing to purchse Lego Rock Band for family play knowing that it may contain some mild language.
Yes, I knew that if my kids sang on songs that contain mild language, they would be repeating that language (or some substitute language) out loud. I can mitigate that some by not chossing those songs in our setlists. I can't control what songs are played in the Rock Den or Mystery Setlists.

As I have said before, I like Lego Rock Band. I question the developers decision to include this one song. I don't question that TT/HMX could have included that song. It's clearly within the definition of E-10 rating. I question whether they should have included it.

That said, there is no way for them to stisfy everyone 100% with what is included or rejected. That is an unreasonable expectation. My hope is that by commenting, they may decide to include some parental controls in future versions that will allow parents to exclude or turn off specific songs. It's ultimately my responsibility, but a couple of extra tools could go a long way toward making my job a little bit easier. Going from Rock Band 2 to Lego Rock Band was a huge leap for family games. Now it's just a few more small steps to get where I'd like to be.

[T-Hybrid]

Ah. I understand that now. Yeah, I am a little disappointed that there isn't a way to toggle at least which songs appear in the Rock Den.

But you should be glad that it's not like Band Hero...in which songs of a questionable nature are sometimes included, but with lyrics that are pretty sizeably cut comparred even to radio edits.

After seeing the Band Hero edits, I give HMX a lot of credit for putting together what is a pretty quality setlist without having to resort to additional edits. :)

[Oddbrother]

There is a tolerable level of whatever bad lyrics are allowed in-game. Unlike Neversoft/Activision being hypocrites on not teaching their children suggestive dialogue, Harmonix/EA can let whatever slide as long as it's not over-the-top.

It's not like many companies who are anal about children gaming will follow some kind of "sure, why not, they'll learn it eventually anyway" motion.

Did I say that right, or was that backwards?

[Runesmith]

This thread has gotten a bit long to reply to each individual post, so let me summerize my thoughts/opinions on this song:

I AM a parent. I am in my early forties and my children are 9 and 11 - both girls. We enjoy playing games as family. It is my responsibility as a parent to supervise what my children are exposed to, whenever I can. I can't control what they see or hear when I am not around, but I can exert infulence over what happens in my home. I am not asking the game companies or other entertainment industries to do that for me - it's not their responsibility.

I understand that the game is reated E-10, which means that the ESRB has decided that it is acceptable for Everyone 10 years old and up. The ESRB guidelines allow for "mild language" in an E-10 games and "why the hell" fits that definition of mild language.

I joined the original poster in expressing my concerns over the inclusion of this song in these forums because it is probably the best place to express them, short of contacting TT/HMX directly.

My concern over the phrase "why the hell" is that not only is it something that my children hear, but they are being encourage to say, repeatedly, while singing the song. In my opinion, that makes it a bit more offensive.

There are other songs that for some may have more questionable content. The differences for me are that, unlike in other songs, this isn't something subtle or may have multiple interpretations; the song is one of the most frequently played songs in the Rock Den; and in my experience, it tends to show up more often in our mystery setlists.

Overall, I am very happy with Lego Rock Band, and have been encouraging my firends who have children and like to play Rock Band to get this version. The filtered song lists and charming Lego graphics coupled with the lack of some of the more extreme artwork and rock-themed outfits make this a much better version of Rock Band for families to play.

-Avi Stetto

This is a very well-thought out post. Nicely done.

Since you can essentially sing whatever words you want as a vocalist, perhaps you can ask your children to simply say something else instead of "hell"? It is also possible to turn down or mute the vocals in-game so you will not hear KT singing.

[T-Hybrid]

There is a tolerable level of whatever bad lyrics are allowed in-game. Unlike Neversoft/Activision being hypocrites on not teaching their children suggestive dialogue, Harmonix/EA can let whatever slide as long as it's not over-the-top.
I wouldn't say Activision is hypocritical...but it's annoying they're putting out a T-Rated game (Band Hero) but editing the content down to fit an E-Rated audience. Especially when these edits are above and beyond the typical GH edits.

Meanwhile, HMX put together a setlist of songs that are able to fit within the E10+ rating without additional edits on top of what they would do for RB.

[Kurando]

"family" doesn't mean "christian".

Exactly my thoughts as well.

[AviStetto]

Originally Posted by Soror_YZBL
"family" doesn't mean "christian".

Exactly my thoughts as well.

So, while it may be inappropriate for a 10 year old Christian to say "why the hell," it is appropriate thing for a 10 year old non-Christian to repeat?

I don't think it is an appropriate expression for any elementary school aged child (4th or 5th grade) irrespective of religious beliefs.

The main question being posed by this thread is "Are the words 'why the hell' in 'Suddenly I see' appropriate for a sing-along game rated E-10. While I agree that by ESRB standards, the song is permissible, I maintain my opinion that it is inappropriate.

[Xzyliac]

These are the lyrics from the chorus

"Suddenly I see (Suddenly I see)
This is what I wanna be
Suddenly I see (Suddenly I see)
Why the hell it means so much to me"

I thought this was a family friendly game.

IKNOWRITE!?!



My concern over the phrase "why the hell" is that not only is it something that my children hear, but they are being encourage to say, repeatedly, while singing the song. In my opinion, that makes it a bit more offensive.
IKNOWRITE!?!

Finally somebody agrees with me. Jesus I couldn't give two balls about kids and I thought for sure this was an obvious thing.

[fearstrike]

idk

[T-Hybrid]

The main question being posed by this thread is "Are the words 'why the hell' in 'Suddenly I see' appropriate for a sing-along game rated E-10. While I agree that by ESRB standards, the song is permissible, I maintain my opinion that it is inappropriate.
Then I have to say you are probably in the wrong place, as HMX doesn't set the ESRB guidelines...

[Xzyliac]

Then I have to say you are probably in the wrong place, as HMX doesn't set the ESRB guidelines...

But it was still their decision (I'm assuming, otherwise replace with Traveler's Tales, either way) to put it in their game that they were advertising for families and kids and stuff.

Plus, every ratings system is corrupt. The ESRB is no exception to the MPAA. If Harmonix or TT advertised their games as being acceptable all around than that's on them if they failed to meet that marker in the eyes of parents.

[ryanco64]

I bet the people who are over 10 know what those words mean anyway. Just my 2 cents.

[T-Hybrid]

But it was still their decision (I'm assuming, otherwise replace with Traveler's Tales, either way) to put it in their game that they were advertising for families and kids and stuff.
But what guide does HMX have to determine this? They can't poll every parent in the regions that will be buying this disc...

All they have to go by when determining if something is okay for the rating they are seeking is the ESRB. If you have problems with "hell" being approved by that group, then you need to take it up with them.


Plus, every ratings system is corrupt. The ESRB is no exception to the MPAA. If Harmonix or TT advertised their games as being acceptable all around than that's on them if they failed to meet that marker in the eyes of parents.
See, now you're just using paranoia as evidence of further paranoia.

[lanky316]

My local church should be shut down :( They invite kids in and the vicar always chunters on about hell, the git. :(

I'm still yet to see why the usage of hell is so bad. The reality is it's acceptable by Disney and the certifiers acknowledge it as a use of mild profanity, justifying it as a 10+. If this is really that big of an issue complain to those people but in no way are TT or HMX responsible for any perceived injustice. To give you a guide, most certifiers allow one use of harsh language to remain a PG cert, thus the s word for excrement being permitted in the Indiana Jones trilogy and keeping it within range.

[Kurando]

My local church should be shut down :( They invite kids in and the vicar always chunters on about hell, the git. :(

I'm still yet to see why the usage of hell is so bad. The reality is it's acceptable by Disney and the certifiers acknowledge it as a use of mild profanity, justifying it as a 10+. If this is really that big of an issue complain to those people but in no way are TT or HMX responsible for any perceived injustice. To give you a guide, most certifiers allow one use of harsh language to remain a PG cert, thus the s word for excrement being permitted in the Indiana Jones trilogy and keeping it within range.

In relation to Indiana Jones, the same thing applies to the original trilogy of Star Wars. Even though they're rated PG you still have severed limbs, choking, lots of violence, and even death. PG doesn't mean always super clean and never any curse words.

[DrumStix]

Why the hell is this thread posted?




(Psst, I'm just joking.)

[Kidmitt]

In relation to Indiana Jones, the same thing applies to the original trilogy of Star Wars. Even though they're rated PG you still have severed limbs, choking, lots of violence, and even death. PG doesn't mean always super clean and never any curse words.

In relation to Indiana Jones, no PG-13 rating existed back then.

[Soror_YZBL]

So, while it may be inappropriate for a 10 year old Christian to say "why the hell," it is appropriate thing for a 10 year old non-Christian to repeat?

I don't think it is an appropriate expression for any elementary school aged child (4th or 5th grade) irrespective of religious beliefs.

That's not your call to make, unless it's your 10 year old. It's just a word, one that is completely devoid of any real meaning in that context, other than "add emotional emphasis on why".

[lanky316]

In relation to Indiana Jones, no PG-13 rating existed back then.

Not sure how long we've had the 12 certificate. However, films may reclassified for video and dvd release, so the fact it remains a PG shows the point still stands.

[rockfresh126]

Besides it's not like the definition of PG hasn't changed a lot in recent years. PG movies use words like hell or ass quite frequently now.

[LCO1138]

My local church should be shut down :( They invite kids in and the vicar always chunters on about hell, the git. :(


And this example highlights my puzzlement at the exclusion of "One Vision", "I Want To Break Free", and "Somebody To Love" (assuming the block is because of the use of 'God' and 'Lord' in the lyrics). Exactly whom are we protecting by blocking these songs, the under 10s who could hear these words every Sunday in church, or those that have other religious beliefs (not gonna go into a discussion about religion here, but just making the point.) ?

Me, I wouldn't regard 'hell' as a cuss word. Heck, it's even used in the original Star Wars and that got a 'U' (MPAA equivalent of a 'G') certificate in the UK.

The filter is a good idea, don't get me wrong. I wouldn't want kids to play along to songs referencing violence, sex, substance abuse, swearing, etc, but the filter is too heavy handed/inconsistent (in fact it reminds me of when Home launched on PS3 and 'hello' in chat would show as '****o').

[T-Hybrid]

However, films may reclassified for video and dvd release, so the fact it remains a PG shows the point still stands.
Except for the part where you said "may". Films don't always get reclassified.

[Xzyliac]

See, now you're just using paranoia as evidence of further paranoia.

Dude that's not paranoia. Various ratings systems have time and time again been proven to be subject to bias. If whomever sent this game out to the ESRB said "By the way we're shooting for an E10+ rating," the first thing they're gonna do is bend over backwards to do it. And it happens. I mean not like they're trying to get them to give them that rating. It's just that'll be on the reviewers mind. I could go through the whole process of reviewing a game if you want me to. It's happened before in determining T ratings. It's just simple human behavior.

And again I don't think the rating means anything when you consider the advertising. It's not that it even really matters to me but you can't say the rating overshadows the advertising.

Look at Conker back during the N64 days. Conker was rated M but it had the appearance of a kid game and we all know how that worked out.

I'm just sayin' not so much in the case of LRB but in the case of your argument in general.

[T-Hybrid]

If whomever sent this game out to the ESRB said "By the way we're shooting for an E10+ rating," the first thing they're gonna do is bend over backwards to do it.
Um...what? The ESRB and MPAA bend over backwards for people? As far as the RIAA goes...have you ever even heard of the "PMRC" and that whole back and forth?

Or maybe you've heard of when Rockstar was forced to patch "Hot Coffee" or else get slapped with a new AO rating?

Or how about when the makers of South Park: Bigger, Longer, and Uncut had to rename the movie from the original concept "South Park: All Hell Breaks Loose" and make several additional cuts or else get slapped with an NC-17?

That kind of bending over backwards? I repeat my previous statement. Your belief that the ratings system is corrupt and easily manipulated has to prove it's based on anything but further speculation.


Look at Conker back during the N64 days. Conker was rated M but it had the appearance of a kid game and we all know how that worked out.
Conker was a mature-rated game built to be a mature-rated game and marketed as a mature rated games. The cutsey graphics were part of the joke. It wasn't an attempt to market the game to children, and no such attempt was made. Unless you think putting "This game is not for anyone under 17 (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/9/99/Conkersbfdbox.jpg)" on the box is an obvious attempt at getting children...

[SlivedCupWinner]

besides it's not like the definition of pg hasn't changed a lot in recent years. Pg movies use words like hell or ass quite frequently now.

qft

[Thrasher9294]

Because it is a good song.

[T-Hybrid]

Besides it's not like the definition of PG hasn't changed a lot in recent years. PG movies use words like hell or ass quite frequently now.
Movie ratings typically don't have a list of words that make them automatically get a certain rating. It's the amount or context in which the terms are used.

[Xzyliac]

Um...what? The ESRB and MPAA bend over backwards for people? As far as the RIAA goes...have you ever even heard of the "PMRC" and that whole back and forth?

Or maybe you've heard of when Rockstar was forced to patch "Hot Coffee" or else get slapped with a new AO rating?

Or how about when the makers of South Park: Bigger, Longer, and Uncut had to rename the movie from the original concept "South Park: All Hell Breaks Loose" and make several additional cuts or else get slapped with an NC-17?

That kind of bending over backwards? I repeat my previous statement. Your belief that the ratings system is corrupt and easily manipulated has to prove it's based on anything but further speculation.


Conker was a mature-rated game built to be a mature-rated game and marketed as a mature rated games. The cutsey graphics were part of the joke. It wasn't an attempt to market the game to children, and no such attempt was made. Unless you think putting "This game is not for anyone under 17 (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/9/99/Conkersbfdbox.jpg)" on the box is an obvious attempt at getting children...

Who said I was claiming Conker was an attempt at getting to children? In fact I said opposite. It was an adult game that got everyone upset because it looked cutesy. While of course the box made it obvious it wasn't for kids people still got all b*tchy. Because that's people

Also, the corrupt MPAA is nothing new. There's like two documentaries and a ton of essays on the subject. It's...it's really nothing new. I'm surprised I have to even argue this. In fact there was a dev just recently who said the ESRB and publishers have been in kahootz. Rating's boards are almost always wooed in somehow.

Plus the three things you mentioned are all examples of possible bias. Like I've been saying. Grand Theft Auto, rock music, and South Park are all famous for their controversies. It's definitely possible.

[T-Hybrid]

Plus the three things you mentioned are all examples of possible bias. Like I've been saying. Grand Theft Auto, rock music, and South Park are all famous for their controversies. It's definitely possible.
Once again supporting paranoia with further paranoia. You have yet to provide any supporting arguments. But do continue, as I find it amusing.

[Kasil]

Doesn't make sense to me, seeing as "The Running Free" wasn't allowed in. The only thing I can see that would be responsible for that is "hell".

[ZigZag2005]

Doesn't make sense to me, seeing as "The Running Free" wasn't allowed in. The only thing I can see that would be responsible for that is "hell".

Yeah, I thought the same thing. But it's likely due to the context. "Why the hell..." as opposed to "Here in Hell".

[Xzyliac]

Once again supporting paranoia with further paranoia. You have yet to provide any supporting arguments. But do continue, as I find it amusing.

I'm saying it's definitely possible. That's all. So am I supporting opinion with opinion? Yes. Opinion can't be disproven.

I'm saying there's a chance if you put someone in front of Grand Theft Auto, assuming they're educated in Grand Theft Auto, and asked them to rate it there's a chance they'll be expecting an M-rated title. I don't get what's paranoid about that.

Jerry Bonner, an old reviewer from the ESRB, has said that two problems with the ESRB are they are not required to play through games all the way (they only play what the publishers send them) and review boards are encouraged from the upper crust to rate sequels based on the ratings of their predecessor (he actually uses GTA as an example if I recall correctly).

I wish I could find the link with the interview where the dev (I can't even remember what developer he works for) said basically the same thing. He said the ESRB only reviews what publishers send to them and it's not nearly as complete a review as they claim to be. You can look at Manhunt and The Punisher as good examples of that. Games that got onto the shelves based solely on what the publishers sent to them and got pulled after public outcry.

Rewinding all the way back to the original statement I still think what you market to whom is more important than what it's rated to some extent. I mean I don't know how this could happen but let's just say an E10+ game is marketed to adults and someone gets pissy about it. This is weird but hang on. Who is at fault? The marketing or the ratings board?

Also, if a game is M and it's marketed to adults and a kid gets a hold of it then yeah that's the fault of the parents for ignoring the rating, duh.

Lego Rock Band is neither here or there of course.

[T-Hybrid]

I'm saying it's definitely possible. That's all. So am I supporting opinion with opinion? Yes. Opinion can't be disproven.
No, but opinion can be discredited with established fact/precident. As is the case with the movies/tv shows I cited.

When you claim that the MPPA/RIAA/ESRB are biased, and the only evidence you provide is just further speculation, then you're not actually providing any supporting evidence.

I provided specific examples of games, movies, music that came under fire from ratings/content advistory groups and all you did was dimiss it as "bias" which has no actual factual basis and is just more paranoia.

[Cliphead]

There's also the fact that the Mortal Kombat games for the old Game Boy are rated M even though they're in black and white and don't have any blood. Marketing and bias can be used to make a rating HIGHER, but I've yet to see evidence of a ratings board using bias to make a rating LOWER. Hell, Super Smash Bros. Melee and Brawl were rated T despite having characters like Mario and Pikachu on the cover. The only reason the original was rated E is because they replaced the punching sounds with less realistic bowling pin noises.

[Xzyliac]

No, but opinion can be discredited with established fact/precident. As is the case with the movies/tv shows I cited.

When you claim that the MPPA/RIAA/ESRB are biased, and the only evidence you provide is just further speculation, then you're not actually providing any supporting evidence.

I provided specific examples of games, movies, music that came under fire from ratings/content advistory groups and all you did was dimiss it as "bias" which has no actual factual basis and is just more paranoia.

When did I say the ESRB is bias? I said a reviewer can walk into a session with a bias. Bias is an inescapable factor of human behavior. I never claimed the entirety of the ESRB is biased. For the most part the ESRB does it's job fairly I believe but it's not beyond reasoning (since, ya know, it's happened) that the ESRB can rate a game solely based on the history of that game as Bonner has claimed the ESRB sometimes pressures reviewers to do.

I feel like you're really pushing my bias statement (which is fine, I've no problem defending it) when there's a lot more to what I've been saying.

My opinion was that if you market a game to children and it's not for children (again, disclaimer: LRB is neither here or there) than it's the problem of the marketing.



There's also the fact that the Mortal Kombat games for the old Game Boy are rated M even though they're in black and white and don't have any blood. Marketing and bias can be used to make a rating HIGHER, but I've yet to see evidence of a ratings board using bias to make a rating LOWER.
But it's not within the realm of impossibility. And again I'd like to point I'm not saying any of this is in the case of LRB.



Plus, every ratings system is corrupt. The ESRB is no exception to the MPAA.
Okay so corrupt might've been a strong word for what I was trying to say. Any ratings system can screw up every once in a while based on preconceived notions. Does that make everyone happy? My point, again rewinding way back, is that it was Harmonix' decision to include the song and then market it for the kiddies. The ESRB shouldn't even be dragged into this as their rating is irrelevant to the discussion. You can't go 100% by them anymore than you can blame them for the songs appearance in the game.

[General Lein979]

Because if a kid hasn't heard hell by the time he's smart enough to play video games, especially ones that require focus, somethings wrong. Parents should be able to teach kids before the video game playing era that certain words aren't for all situations so problems don't happen

[Skode]

The answer is simple... its just a simple saying over here. Knowledge of religion need not even be brought into this :rolleyes:

The Rolling Stones song should have had more question marks on its appearance so lets leave KT out of this and instead back the idea of getting a pack of songs from her in the near future :cool:

[newmanator]

People need to calm down, it's a word, a series of audio keys, not an 'obscene body part' or anything.
Does that mean one can't say heaven either?

[Kidmitt]

All I have to say is, you bring a violent game into a house with an 8 year old, nothing to stop that kid from playing it and becoming a terrorist. The same applies to Lego Rock Band.

[Rocket2Russia]

All I have to say is, you bring a violent game into a house with an 8 year old, nothing to stop that kid from playing it and becoming a terrorist. The same applies to Lego Rock Band.

Thought crimes lead to real crimes 100% of the time.

[/sarcasm]

If your post was supposed to be a joke, cool. It wasn't funny, but fine. If it was supposed to be taken seriously, I pity you.

[T-Hybrid]

But it's not within the realm of impossibility. And again I'd like to point I'm not saying any of this is in the case of LRB.
"So my claims of bias and rating fixing may never have actually been proven...but that doesn't mean it couldn't happen so therefore the paranoia is justified."

:rolleyes:


I feel like you're really pushing my bias statement (which is fine, I've no problem defending it) when there's a lot more to what I've been saying.
When the "bias" and "collusion" is the only argument you have...and that argument is only supported with further claims such as the one quoted above...then yes I will push that point because it is riddiculously paranoid and does nothing to help move the conversation along except by further promoting the paranoia that seems to the only way most people know to function around here.

[JimmyRyan]

I have a better question for the OP (and everyone else, really...)

Why in the name of all that is holy was Kung Fu Fighting included in this game?? Or any rythm game for that matter. I know it's my opinion, but I just got through with playing all the instrument parts on Expert and my God, they are all just about the most horrendous collection of charts I have ever seen,

Let me specify, I am not saying they're mischarted, I'm saying that the real song may sound good, but holy **** is it a chore to play.

[bigmf]

I have a better question for the OP (and everyone else, really...)

Why in the name of all that is holy was Kung Fu Fighting included in this game?? Or any rythm game for that matter. I know it's my opinion, but I just got through with playing all the instrument parts on Expert and my God, they are all just about the most horrendous collection of charts I have ever seen,

Let me specify, I am not saying they're mischarted, I'm saying that the real song may sound good, but holy **** is it a chore to play.

The drum chart is a thing of beauty to me.

[Cubecubed]

my big question is how "A favor house atlantic" is family friendly and "The Running Free" isn't.

[MrFruitLord]

Who cares? It's one word. Besides, it's a pretty good song.

[Touwe]

These are the lyrics from the chorus

"Suddenly I see (Suddenly I see)
This is what I wanna be
Suddenly I see (Suddenly I see)
Why the hell it means so much to me"

I thought this was a family friendly game.

there is a handful of songs in lego rockband that use the word hell. It doesn't really hold any power as a derogatory word these days.

[folkeye]

So what age is appropriate to hear the word 'hell'? Or when do parents stop worrying about it?