Learning to use 35 mm manual cameras

[Witticus]

[B]Hey guys, I'm taking a photography class where we're working with film cameras. This class includes learning to develop film, using black and white film, settings, etc... The camera I'm using is a Pentax SLR, and so far I'm really starting to like the amount of control I have over shots compared to point and shoot cameras. There is a lot to know and so far I've made a couple of very, very rookie mistakes.

Mistakes so far...
January 12, 2010:
* Spent 20 minutes trying to load my film before realizing I was placing the film in the wrong area.
* I was using 400 speed 24 shot film and my camera was telling me I had taken 26 pictures? I panicked thinking I hadn't taken any shots but opened the film holder to realize that I had taken shots, just hadn't rewinded... I shut that and already know I lost a few pictures, which I will be developing in a couple hours.
January 13, 2010:
* I got my first roll of film developed and realized a few of the pictures I didn't overexpose were a lot lighter than intended. This led to the discovery as to how the light meter works on my camera.
January 21st 2010:
I managed to develop my 2nd roll of film today, but something happened where my first 5 shots were ok, but my last 19 didn't develop. The guy who developed his film in the same solution'sphotos came out just fine, but mine were weird. We were both using the same type of film and were in the same processing container!? Will figure out what the hell went wrong (I didn't open the film loader this time) Could it have something to do with when I changed lenses on the camera?

Now that you can tell I'm very new to this, I was wondering if there were any camera pros here that could give me some hints about taking photos with manual film cameras, or care to share any embarrassing stories of their own while working with cameras.

I've realized that mistakes are actually the first steps to improvement, so I find it funny when I make mistakes. Documenting what you do wrong is a great way to improve as well and possibly tell a good story out of it too.

[topperharley]

I haven't used a film camera in years. Digital is the way to go for me. Although there are advantages to learning photography on a film camera, particularly if you are also learning to develop film.


or care to share any embarrassing stories of their own while working with cameras.

There are certain types of photos you don't want to bring to Proex to be developed... :o (just kidding)

[bood-boy]

i just use a DSLR. best of both worlds. i hate point and shoot. i want control of everything.

[Witticus]

i just use a DSLR. best of both worlds. i hate point and shoot. i want control of everything.

I totally agree, I'm loving the amount of control you have with manual cameras. It feels like when you go from automatic to stick on cars, you just can't go back!

[bood-boy]

except driving with a stick is not art.

[Oscar-Rio]

Is your class teaching you about proper lighting and how to visualize what the scene may look like based on the settings you're going with? If you're not able to understand the metering/exposure/sunlight direction/colors and how it relates to the final outcome it's going to be difficult to nail down what you want with such little experience. It's like with most things; the more you practice and the more trial and error you do, the more you're going to learn. Don't expect to be taking too many beautiful shots at the get-go.

[bood-boy]

thats why u should learn to use on DSLR from the get go to understand ur f-stop and shutter speed and ISO numbers, cause you can see what ur photos look like instantly after u snap it. sure beats realizing all ur settings were ****ty once u get em back to the lab. its also good to take the same photo on many different settings to see the difference with different settings.

[Oscar-Rio]

thats why u should learn to use on DSLR from the get go to understand ur f-stop and shutter speed and ISO numbers, cause you can see what ur photos look like instantly after u snap it. sure beats realizing all ur settings were ****ty once u get em back to the lab. its also good to take the same photo on many different settings to see the difference with different settings.

Agreed. The power and control of DSLR is unmatched by any other photography method. Add Photoshop into that mix and there's not much need to ever rely on film and post-processing. There is a certain bit of a romanticized aspect to shooting on film and going through the dark-room steps to get your pictures, but it's lengthier and more costly when compared to Photoshop.

I've wanted to get myself a really low quality Lomo camera for the longest time, but have never bothered to get one. But the results from those camera versus the price point is pretty excellent.

[bood-boy]

film will always be true representation. the finest purists will always take the best shots in my opinion.

[Witticus]

thats why u should learn to use on DSLR from the get go to understand ur f-stop and shutter speed and ISO numbers, cause you can see what ur photos look like instantly after u snap it. sure beats realizing all ur settings were ****ty once u get em back to the lab. its also good to take the same photo on many different settings to see the difference with different settings.

Awesome! This is extremely helpful.

My class starts off with film and halfway through the semester switches to digital. For the digital portion of the class I got a great deal on a Canon Rebel XSI. I was playing around with it this morning, guess I didn't think to check what things would look like with different light settings.

You guys are great!

[topperharley]

thats why u should learn to use on DSLR from the get go to understand ur f-stop and shutter speed and ISO numbers, cause you can see what ur photos look like instantly after u snap it.

That, plus you can take a buttload of pictures without having to buy and develop dozens of rolls of film. The trial and error that allows you to learn to be a better photography is a lot cheaper with a memory card or two than with roll after roll of film.

[plague]

What manual Pentax SLR were you using? Try reading the manual? It would have told you how to use the light meter and also how many stops to adjust depending on whether your foreground or background are brightest.

I'm assuming that this second part might have been taught in the class, though?

Use a log and record your settings so that you can correct or reproduce your results.

Don't use 400 speed film, unless you're taking pictures of moving objects or just really love grainy photos. Even when I take very low light photos, I can get away with 100 speed film and the proper shutter speed.

When you get to digital, instead of just looking at your image on the LCD, also look at the histogram.

[Witticus]

Don't use 400 speed film, unless you're taking pictures of moving objects or just really love grainy photos. Even when I take very low light photos, I can get away with 100 speed film and the proper shutter speed.
.

I appreciate the concern of the 400 speed film, but it was what we were told to get since we're only working in black and white for our film portion. I've only been using manual cameras for literally less than a week, so the light adjustment issue was a rookie mistake on my part since all I've ever worked with before are point and shoot.

The camera I'm using is a Pentax ASAHI K1000. It was a good cheap camera since I needed a camera to work for only a small period of time. I've also been using a Canon Rebel XSI which I'm in love with. It's really helping me achieve what I need in terms of learning to work with manual cameras. Seeing my picture instantly available is really cool and shows me what i did wrong or possibly right.

bood-boy was certainly right about practicing with digital cameras first! Also I'll show you guys my pictures when I print them next week. Thanks again for all the great advice!

[plague]

Do you just have the standard f2 50mm lens that was often sold with the Pentax? That's a good camera. It's pretty much been the student photographer standard since I was a kid. The above lens is typically going to have a much larger aperture than any default lens on a digital camera.

The f2 allows for some dramatic depth of field shots. There is such a huge difference between f2 and the f3.5 or whatever is typical on the common DLSR kit lens. Also, the 50mm lens on a 35mm film camera is considered the standard or normal lense because it's close to what the human eye sees.

I recommend getting a standard lens for your digital with f2 or faster. Remember that the 50mm standard lens is going to be something like 30mm on a DSLR due to CCD size being different than 35mm film. You can find the focal length multiplier of your camera as compared to a 35mm film camera, in your manual.

I honestly use a DSLR for most things, but I still use film when I want to do black and white. Now that I have a DSLR, if I'm doing something really experimental with film, I do perform some test shots with the DSLR before I expose some film.

With just a light meter I rarely messed up an exposure, but I no longer feel the need to do bracketing just to be sure. Well, I do sometimes still do bracketing, if the shot is important to me and the model can hold still long enough.

[rgdrafting]

I recommend getting a standard lens for your digital with f2 or faster. Remember that the 50mm standard lens is going to be something like 30mm on a DSLR due to CCD size being different than 35mm film. You can find the focal length multiplier of your camera as compared to a 35mm film camera, in your manual..

Actually, I think a 50mm lens on a Rebel XSi would be the equivalent of 80 mm. (Rebel has a 1.6x focal length multiplier). Which is all fine and dandy if you want to bring your subjects closer....but not very convenient for a wide angle shot.

That really is about the only downfall of most DSLRs....the reduced size of the CCD/CMOS sensor (or 'crop sensor' as some have taken to calling them). The only time it's advantageous is if you shoot primarily sports or wildlife.

Of course, there are "full frame" DSLRs available...they're just considerably more expensive. Although, Sony's A850 is under $2000, which is somewhere around half as expensive as the Canon/Nikon equivalents.

As for the 'film vs. digital' debate -- I will probably never shoot film again...but I think that anybody who really wants to learn the art of photography should start with a film camera. In fact, you should start with a pin-hole box! Film is by far the best way to completely understand the mechanics and nuances of the art.

Then, when you're using your DSLR later, you'll understand better the effects of changing ISO speed and when you're using Photoshop, you'll understand what 'burn' and 'dodge' really mean.

[bood-boy]

bood-boy was certainly right about everything he's ever said ever

fixed.

[plague]

Actually, I think a 50mm lens on a Rebel XSi would be the equivalent of 80 mm. (Rebel has a 1.6x focal length multiplier). Which is all fine and dandy if you want to bring your subjects closer....but not very convenient for a wide angle shot...

I feel like you only read half of the paragraph of mine that you quoted. :)

[rgdrafting]

I feel like you only read half of the paragraph of mine that you quoted. :)

No, I read it all...I just thought you were saying that a 50mm lens on his Rebel would result in the equivalent of a 30mm lens on his Pentax. But I can see that you were saying just the opposite...my bad.

At least we agree on everything else, eh. For instance, your thoughts on bracketing....with the ability to shoot in RAW format, bracketing isn't nearly as necessary as it used to be. Although, bracketing will usually yield superior results if the situation allows for it. Agree?

[plague]

Well, I was talking about doing bracketing when shooting on film. Even after testing a shot with a DSLR, and being pretty confident just with a light meter, I'll bracket exposure when taking the actual shot with the film camera if the shot is important to me. Depending on if depth of field is important to the shot, I may bracket using shutter speed or aperture size.

Any white balance bracketing defnitely isn't needed when shooting in RAW. There's no reason to do any processing in camera when you can get exactly what you want later. Sometimes I do bracketing on DSLR just so that I can make HDRIs. However, in general bracketing isn't necessary just because you can immediately view your histogram and see if you need to redo it. If the histogram is optimum, I could care less what the exposure looks like in the LCD. I know that I can play with it in the software.

If you don't have time to look at the histogram, on a DSLR you can set a -1 EV and pretty much be able to fix any exposure issues within +1 or -1 EV. So in this way, as you said, exposure bracketing isn't really necessary. However, if you're way off, you'll wish you had taken the time to look at the histogram. Still, there's no need for bracketing unless you want an HDRI.

[Witticus]

Ok something weird happened to my photos today, I developed my 2nd roll of film and only the first 5 photos came out and the other didn't turn out? A guy in my class developed his photos with me in the same container since we were both using Kodak TX BW 400. However his photos came out fine so I'm not sure what happened, only thing I can think of is I switched lens once between shooting. Would switching lens caps mess up my film?

[SequenceF]

Film looks great without any tweaking, but it's never going to make a comeback and it's upsetting to hear that schools are even bothering to teach film developing.

To me, it would be like taking a typing class and learning on a typewriter instead of a computer; it's really nice, but it's just obsolete.

[plague]

Film looks great without any tweaking, but it's never going to make a comeback and it's upsetting to hear that schools are even bothering to teach film developing.

To me, it would be like taking a typing class and learning on a typewriter instead of a computer; it's really nice, but it's just obsolete.

You mean film photographers know how to take a better picture that doesn't need tweaking? I would agree that a film camera is not needed by most camera users. However, most camera users aren't taking photographs for artistic purposes. Film, especially large format and black and white film will likely be used by photographers for years to come.

[BallisticJunkfood]

I just started taking Basic Photography this semester, so I suppose this thread will be of some interest to me. I'm looking at getting a Canon Rebel on craigslist at the moment. So far the class seems like it's gonna be a ton of fun.

[Witticus]

I just started taking Basic Photography this semester, so I suppose this thread will be of some interest to me. I'm looking at getting a Canon Rebel on craigslist at the moment. So far the class seems like it's gonna be a ton of fun.

Sweet, there's been a lot of great advice on this thread and the people are amazing.

Also if anybody wants to show off some great pictures you've taken, please do!

[BallisticJunkfood]

Well, the Canon Rebel is out the window. The woman who was selling it wanted $350 for it, and I am definitely not paying that much. I am now looking at this one (http://denver.craigslist.org/pho/1537893366.html).

[plague]

Well, the Canon Rebel is out the window. The woman who was selling it wanted $350 for it, and I am definitely not paying that much. I am now looking at this one (http://denver.craigslist.org/pho/1537893366.html).

Was the Canon for $350 just the body also? The condition of the Nikon body scares me. Who takes a picture of a camera body on the floor, without a lens or cover on it, facing up? You might want to find out how much Nikon charges for cleaning the dust out.

[plague]

Also if anybody wants to show off some pictures you've taken, please do!

Fixed.

Here's one (http://photos-g.ak.fbcdn.net/photos-ak-sf2p/v45/143/56/511592812/n511592812_5353_8556.jpg) from the most recent roll that I took.

[BallisticJunkfood]

Was the Canon for $350 just the body also? The condition of the Nikon body scares me. Who takes a picture of a camera body on the floor, without a lens or cover on it, facing up? You might want to find out how much Nikon charges for cleaning the dust out.

The Canon was body and lens. And I didn't end up getting the Nikon either cause I never got a reply for it. I ended up getting a Yashica TL Electro X off of Amazon which just got delivered today. I wanted to start taking some pictures with it, but it's 11 pm now and I'm gonna have to wait until tomorrow.


Also if anybody wants to show off some great pictures you've taken, please do!

I'll do that as soon as I get to taking great pictures! :D

[rgdrafting]

Here's a couple of my older "keepers"....

Grand Tetons (http://i461.photobucket.com/albums/qq334/ryangeer/Landscapes%20and%20Cityscapes/barnbwdigitalframe.jpg)
Monument Valley (http://i461.photobucket.com/albums/qq334/ryangeer/Landscapes%20and%20Cityscapes/mitten5x3digitalframe.jpg)

Maybe someday when I have when there's more hours in the day than things to get done I will get some new stuff uploaded....and maybe even take a new photo or two!!

[justin19954]

Here's a couple of my older "keepers"....

Grand Tetons (http://i461.photobucket.com/albums/qq334/ryangeer/Landscapes%20and%20Cityscapes/barnbwdigitalframe.jpg)
Monument Valley (http://i461.photobucket.com/albums/qq334/ryangeer/Landscapes%20and%20Cityscapes/mitten5x3digitalframe.jpg)

Maybe someday when I have when there's more hours in the day than things to get done I will get some new stuff uploaded....and maybe even take a new photo or two!!

That first one is so cool. I'd love to buy one and hang it up.

[BallisticJunkfood]

Check it out y'all. My first print! (http://i259.photobucket.com/albums/hh309/atomicrebirth/35mm%20Photography/BackAlley.jpg)

I know it's not great, but I'm just learning this stuff. Hopefully I'll get better with time.

[rgdrafting]

Check it out y'all. My first print! (http://i259.photobucket.com/albums/hh309/atomicrebirth/35mm%20Photography/BackAlley.jpg)

I know it's not great, but I'm just learning this stuff. Hopefully I'll get better with time.

Is this a scan from the negative, or from the print?

There are lots of positive things to be said for your first attempt...especially considering the subject (or relative lack of a subject). Only a couple of very minor nitpicky 'technical' things could be said.

It's hard to deal with such a contrasty scene (lots of shadows and a very bright 'blown-out' sky to deal with). Even the wet (I think it's wet) pavement works against you in this situation. A polarizing filter in this situation might have helped you out a ton.

Good first print though! Shows tons of potential.

[BallisticJunkfood]

Is this a scan from the negative, or from the print?

There are lots of positive things to be said for your first attempt...especially considering the subject (or relative lack of a subject). Only a couple of very minor nitpicky 'technical' things could be said.

It's hard to deal with such a contrasty scene (lots of shadows and a very bright 'blown-out' sky to deal with). Even the wet (I think it's wet) pavement works against you in this situation. A polarizing filter in this situation might have helped you out a ton.

Good first print though! Shows tons of potential.

Thanks. It's a scan from the print. And, yeah the pavement was wet since it had been snowing a little the previous night. And I don't even know what a polarizing filter is. I've only been to a couple of classes so far, the most I've learned about is contrast. :p

[rgdrafting]

Thanks. It's a scan from the print. And, yeah the pavement was wet since it had been snowing a little the previous night. And I don't even know what a polarizing filter is. I've only been to a couple of classes so far, the most I've learned about is contrast. :p

A polarizing filter is nothing more than a special piece of glass that you screw onto the end of your lens that helps to reduce glare (like on the wet pavement, the hoods/windshields of the two cars, etc.) It can also help to make a bland sky look a little better or a "pretty" sky even "prettier". ---(that's obviously a little bit of an over-simplification of what a polarizing filter is...but that's what they do, in a nutshell.)

Anyway, it may or may not have made a huge difference in your particular shot....hard to say.

I think the thing(s) that I really like in your pic is the "documentary"-style look to it. The graininess of the B&W adds to this look and I just think it works well. Even though I have know idea of the why/what/when/where of the shot, it still makes me think "Hmmm, that's interesting!"

Also, the angle of the building is nice -- it has good "leading lines"....which, if you haven't discussed in class, you will! And the building itself is interesting.

You'll have to keep posting your "assignments" here so we can follow your progress!

[BallisticJunkfood]

A polarizing filter is nothing more than a special piece of glass that you screw onto the end of your lens that helps to reduce glare (like on the wet pavement, the hoods/windshields of the two cars, etc.) It can also help to make a bland sky look a little better or a "pretty" sky even "prettier". ---(that's obviously a little bit of an over-simplification of what a polarizing filter is...but that's what they do, in a nutshell.)

Anyway, it may or may not have made a huge difference in your particular shot....hard to say.

I think the thing(s) that I really like in your pic is the "documentary"-style look to it. The graininess of the B&W adds to this look and I just think it works well. Even though I have know idea of the why/what/when/where of the shot, it still makes me think "Hmmm, that's interesting!"

Also, the angle of the building is nice -- it has good "leading lines"....which, if you haven't discussed in class, you will! And the building itself is interesting.

You'll have to keep posting your "assignments" here so we can follow your progress!

I definitely will. Thanks.

By the way, the white on the cars is snow.

[plague]

Check it out y'all. My first print! (http://i259.photobucket.com/albums/hh309/atomicrebirth/35mm%20Photography/BackAlley.jpg)

I know it's not great, but I'm just learning this stuff. Hopefully I'll get better with time.

This looks like it was pretty challenging to get a balanced exposure, and I think you did it well. I couldn't have done any better. Did you develop it and print it yourself?

It's a weird photo because you have the later model car and the newer one in the same scene. It is actually an interesting composition, and I'm pleasantly surprised based on the subject.

[plague]

Here's a couple of my older "keepers"....

Grand Tetons (http://i461.photobucket.com/albums/qq334/ryangeer/Landscapes%20and%20Cityscapes/barnbwdigitalframe.jpg)
Monument Valley (http://i461.photobucket.com/albums/qq334/ryangeer/Landscapes%20and%20Cityscapes/mitten5x3digitalframe.jpg)

Maybe someday when I have when there's more hours in the day than things to get done I will get some new stuff uploaded....and maybe even take a new photo or two!!

I've seen a lot of photos of that barn, and that is the best one I've seen. Well done.

[BallisticJunkfood]

This looks like it was pretty challenging to get a balanced exposure, and I think you did it well. I couldn't have done any better. Did you develop it and print it yourself?

It's a weird photo because you have the later model car and the newer one in the same scene. It is actually an interesting composition, and I'm pleasantly surprised based on the subject.

Thanks. I did develop/print it myself. I did have a bit of input from my professor on the exposure though. :p

[Witticus]

Almost forgot I had my first couple of prints as well!

Holly Tree (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v404/frogiggy323/photos/bwholly.jpg)
Reflections of the past (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v404/frogiggy323/photos/reflect.jpg)

The first link is a holly bush close up that looked pretty cool.
The second is my favorite, its the reflection of a tree in a puddle where burnt logs, sticks, and leaves are scene littering the ground. So its the pieces of a tree that are the reflection of what they once were.

[rgdrafting]

That first one is so cool. I'd love to buy one and hang it up.


I've seen a lot of photos of that barn, and that is the best one I've seen. Well done.

Thanks! I've heard people call it "the most photographed barn in the world"....and It wouldn't surprise me if that was true!

I arrived way early in the morning to get set up and ready for the sunrise. When I got there, it was an hour before sunrise and there was already someone else getting ready....by the time we left (maybe 30 minutes after sunrise), there was at least 10 other serious photographers and a dozen or so "tourists" there snapping away!

Here's the color version (http://i461.photobucket.com/albums/qq334/ryangeer/Landscapes%20and%20Cityscapes/barn16x9digitalframe.jpg) of the same shot....some people like it better than the B&W. I like both, but I think the B&W has a that little something extra.

[justin19954]

Thanks! I've heard people call it "the most photographed barn in the world"....and It wouldn't surprise me if that was true!

I arrived way early in the morning to get set up and ready for the sunrise. When I got there, it was an hour before sunrise and there was already someone else getting ready....by the time we left (maybe 30 minutes after sunrise), there was at least 10 other serious photographers and a dozen or so "tourists" there snapping away!

Here's the color version (http://i461.photobucket.com/albums/qq334/ryangeer/Landscapes%20and%20Cityscapes/barn16x9digitalframe.jpg) of the same shot....some people like it better than the B&W. I like both, but I think the B&W has a that little something extra.

I like the B&W better, but thats just me.

[bood-boy]

note to wannabe photographers. take your outdoor pictures at dawn or dusk. when the sun is low to the horizon. high noon makes for unpretty photos.

[BallisticJunkfood]

Well, I need to take my camera in for repairs. As I was finishing up a roll of film this morning(35th frame) I experienced a problem. I turned the film advance lever and the viewfinder went completely black. I had no idea what was happening. So I rewound the film and took it out of the camera. I keep the back open to check out what was going on. When I pressed the shutter release button nothing happened. The shutter stopped working. I'm not quite sure what the problem is, but I think the shutter might be stuck on something that's keeping it from moving. I think the camera might have a "light leak" too since when I developed that roll of film I had some black lines over parts of it. I'm gonna take it in to my local photography shop to see if they can help me out. Hopefully I can go on Sunday or Monday. I hope the can salvage my camera, I've barely gotten any use out of it yet.


note to wannabe photographers. take your outdoor pictures at dawn or dusk. when the sun is low to the horizon. high noon makes for unpretty photos.

Will do Bood.

[BallisticJunkfood]

I apologize for the double post, but I made a few new prints and I wanted to share them.

The Audacity of Skateboarders (http://i259.photobucket.com/albums/hh309/atomicrebirth/35mm%20Photography/NoSkateboarding.jpg)
Not Quite Lunchtime (http://i259.photobucket.com/albums/hh309/atomicrebirth/35mm%20Photography/Lunchtime.jpg)
Door with Light (http://i259.photobucket.com/albums/hh309/atomicrebirth/35mm%20Photography/Doorwithlight.jpg)

These were actually the only pictures off of the whole roll that I could work with since this was the roll that I discovered that light leak on. I think they turned out pretty good though.

[plague]

I like the skateboarding one the best. I like the subject and the exposure. The composition could be tweaked some.

[BallisticJunkfood]

I like the skateboarding one the best. I like the subject and the exposure. The composition could be tweaked some.

Thanks. That was my favorite out of the three as well.

[BallisticJunkfood]

A couple of new prints.

School in Limbo (http://i259.photobucket.com/albums/hh309/atomicrebirth/35mm%20Photography/School.jpg)
Talkin' Trash (http://i259.photobucket.com/albums/hh309/atomicrebirth/35mm%20Photography/TrashCans.jpg)

[BallisticJunkfood]

I seem to be the only person who cares about this thread anymore...

Anyway, a few of my new prints.

These sets are for a couple of projects for my basic photo class. These first two are for a White on White project where the point is to make the light the primary focus of the print.
White Towel (http://i259.photobucket.com/albums/hh309/atomicrebirth/35mm%20Photography/Whitetowel.jpg)
Bar of Soap (http://i259.photobucket.com/albums/hh309/atomicrebirth/35mm%20Photography/Soapbar.jpg)

These two are for a Point of View project. The idea was to take an ordinary object and take at least 15 pictures of it from different angles and positions. I used my RB drums cause they were the easiest thing to get different angles off of.
Green pad close up (http://i259.photobucket.com/albums/hh309/atomicrebirth/35mm%20Photography/Drums1.jpg)
Center close up (http://i259.photobucket.com/albums/hh309/atomicrebirth/35mm%20Photography/Drums2.jpg)