Harmonix has given DIY'ers a new full time job!

[weenus]

I am a devout Rock Band player, I have already tossed out twenty five dollars on a mic stand, and we are gonna be getting something for our bass pedal, a drum stool, and possibly a double pedal setup soon, and I think its hilarious how Harmonix has basically enabled so many people to make money off of their game.

Rushing the product out for the Holiday's has given us hardware that is known for breaking more often than not. Its not much of a complaint as, I'm happy to be able to play Rock Band (even if right now I technically am only playing Harmonix's version of Singstar since both my guitar and bass pedal have gone non co-op on me).

Anyone out there with a little ingenuity and resourcefulness can make money off of Harmonix's game, by making replacement pedals, reinforcements, drum pad sound mufflers and sensor enhancers, even mods.

I expected the original industry to make a little bit of money off of Mic stands and drum stools, but I didn't expect this. Well done Harmonix, you are a staple of the DIY musician community.

[drumpads]

Well said.

Someone once said, good invention comes from necessity...

www.rockbanddrumpads.com

[m_estock]

Well said. In the end we just have to realize this is all for money. More durable hardware means more $$ and EA is just like every other company. All they want is money. They charged us $170 for cheap plastic and flimsy drum pads that clearly weren't ready for the market.

[weenus]

I just think for 170 dollars it would have been nice to get a product that I could have got more than 2 days of playtime out of. I've spent more time on the forums than I have playing Rock Band, and thats just because I'm trying to find fixes, upgrades, reinforcements, and answers, while I patiently wait for my RMA boxes to come.

[AdamWill2]

well, you always have to consider that forums are about 80% where people come to complain. half the people whose kits broke show up here to Register Their Complaint, but most people whose kits *don't* break aren't going to start a thread saying "my bass pedal is intact!!!", are they?

the initial guitar strum issue in the States was a genuine mess up, but as far as I can figure, the failure rates for everything since then have been pretty much what's inevitable for mass-produced plastic kit of a given complexity.

[Zadoc]

Folks, first off this is my first post here (despite lurking since launch day) but I'm assuming a lot of you complaining about the equipment's price vs durability aren't musicians in the real world. While it really sucks to hear about all of the problems people are having with guitars and kick pedals, I do think you all need to throw a bit of reality into the mix. The GH series ran for $80-$90 per game, and I just don't see how HMX could have kept the price any lower with adding a basically complete electric drum kit and a USB microphone.

I'm sure a lot of you have no concept of what a real electronic drum kit costs, but suffice to say, you'd be lucky to walk out of a music store with much more than a pair of sticks and a kick pedal with only $170 in your pocket.

That being said, would I have paid more than $170 for a more durable RB bundle? You bet I would, and I'm sure some of the more hardcore RB enthusiasts would too, but you have to look at the general video game public who just barely accept the $90 price tag on the GH games. You have to find a balance somewhere - and for $170, I'm not surprised or disappointed with my own RB bundle - granted, I know enough from being around actual music gear that you don't need to rough house a drum kit to play one properly.

While I certainly sympathize with the quality issues and problems others have had, understand that $170 will not buy you even a set of drum pads much less anything to produce sounds from them. For the price point, HMX did a decent (not outstanding, mind you) job of making usable equipment and keeping the prices down to a "gamer level". Despite the fact that I probably would have still paid it, how many copies of RB do you think would have sold at a $300 price point?

Again, not belittling the quality issue complaints, but seriously, the $170 price is more than reasonable for what you get.

[AdamWill2]

word, zadoc.

another valuable comparison is the DrumMania drum kit. Not the arcade one (which is a cannibalised Yamaha electronic kit and cosequently awesome), but the home one. It looks like this:

http://www.play-asia.com/paOS-13-71-88-77-8-49-en-15-drummania-70-14xb-43-99.html

and it costs $80 (retail) on its *own*. No game. No guitar. No microphone. No stand. The "bass pedal" is a microswitch in a flimsy square plastic box.

For whatever the unit price of the RB drum kit, it's a damn fine piece of engineering.

[weenus]

I would imagine the rate of breakage to real world gear is slightly different. I know a lot more people who have real world instruments that are still intact than I know Rock Band owners. The fact of the matter is, if these drums don't work, that portion of the game does not work. If the guitar doesn't work, that portion of the game doesn't work. The importance of these peripherals operating correctly is on par with the game working, period. I must have missed the 'enter at your own risk or prepare to wait weeks to play your game properly again' label on the Rock Band box. To be honest, I've known dozens of Guitar Hero players, and only one of them has had to replace his Rock Band guitar, and thats because he's pretty rough with his gear.

I very much prefer the Fender to the Gibson, but I wish it had the reliability and durability. Don't get me started on the drum pedal that has literally been guaranteed by customer services reps to break... "Its a pedal, you step on it, it breaks!" can you imagine if thats what your car dealership told you? Its not a matter of something being cheap or not, its a matter of making something that is intended to last.

I'm aware that they are RMAing for free and what not, but its just pretty rediculous that I can't even play the game regularly for a few days without having to wait a week and a half to play it properly again.

[m_estock]

First off, I am a musician in the real world (Marching quads, jazz band, youth symphony) and I know that good equipment is expensive. I own a 5 piece acoustic set that ran me about $900 and I know that electronic drum sets would cost me more than double that (at least decent ones). I know that HMX has a partnership with Roland, a leading elec. drum kit producer. I've played on Roland's and they are very responsive indeed. I expected that the same would hold true for Rock Band's peripheral because of the partnership with Roland.

[Zadoc]

I would imagine the rate of breakage to real world gear is slightly different. I know a lot more people who have real world instruments that are still intact than I know Rock Band owners.

Of course, and the reason why? A "real world" kick pedal will set you back at least $50, and if you want something really reliable expect to spend at least $100. You get what you pay for, and I certainly don't think the casual gamer would shell out $50-$100 for a decent kick pedal. I know enough non-musician gamers who think $170 is "outrageous" as is, but my point is that I don't see how the price could have gone any cheaper for what you get in the box.


Its not a matter of something being cheap or not, its a matter of making something that is intended to last.

Again, I've had my copy of RB since launch without problems, so it isn't everyone who's having problems. While I fully agree that the kick pedal has some serious durability issues for those who like to blast in to it, I don't expect much with a $170 price tag. If you're a blast hitter then it probably is a good idea to look into all the third party solutions (replacing the foot pedal with wood or metal parts, or going out and buying a real kick pedal to mod).

However, what I would say is that HMX should have stated in the game manual or the tutorials that hitting the drums and pedal hard isn't necessary - something any real drum instructor would tell you right off the bat.

Also to the OP, welcome to the world of being a "musician" - that's pretty much what most real life musicians go through, buying third party accessories and upgrades for our gear. Every guitar I buy I immediately spend about $30 to replace the strap buttons with strap-locks, add in the cost for a strap - $10, a case (if the guitar doesn't come with one, as most don't) - $100, a stand - $20, a few packs of strings - $10, and whatever else you might need and that $500 "bargain" guitar you just found winds up costing you closer to $700.

[Tamran]

To prove what the musician folks in this thread are saying, just go down to Guitar Center or a music store.

Some very intelligent remarks in this thread on both sides. This thread was a pleasure to read so far. :)

I'm almost certain that if I'm going to make drums a long lasting venture, I'll be heavily modding. I'll probably look for a used electronic drum kit and rip the guts out of the drum kit and make it all work. They all use the same principals after all. The kick pedal may be somewhat of an issue though.

And then there is this guy: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=buOZGWJr8KY

Mods like this for rockband aren't far away to be sure.

[AdamWill2]

I mentioned this last month, but most people weren't around then...there's a guy in Hong Kong who makes third party controllers who's currently working on a DrumMania arcade style controller. He's considering providing an optional module for Rock Band compatibility. The kit's going to cost about $500 plus shipping from HK. His stuff is usually very high quality, it's definitely an option to consider if you're serious about getting a higher quality kit for RB. If you want to register interest, the thread for it is here:

http://www.bemanistyle.com/forum/f7/dj-dao-gf-dm-arcade-style-controllers-planning-stage-11855/

stuff about potential RB support is on the last few pages. I guess Dao would welcome any technical info on how the RB controller works, actually.

[KaneTaker]

I'm hoping that some other peripheral makers will come along and give us some good options. Anyone that followed DDR knows that not only could you get the cheap, soft pads, but some decent mroe rigid pads, or for the big money, a full metal arcade style cabinet. I would totally shell out for a deluxe drum.

[murph]

i'm holding out for the Rock Band Tommy Lee Rotating Drum Kit :)

[weenus]

While I fully agree that the kick pedal has some serious durability issues for those who like to blast in to it, I don't expect much with a $170 price tag. If you're a blast hitter then it probably is a good idea to look into all the third party solutions (replacing the foot pedal with wood or metal parts, or going out and buying a real kick pedal to mod).

Also to the OP, welcome to the world of being a "musician" - that's pretty much what most real life musicians go through, buying third party accessories and upgrades for our gear. Every guitar I buy I immediately spend about $30 to replace the strap buttons with strap-locks, add in the cost for a strap - $10, a case (if the guitar doesn't come with one, as most don't) - $100, a stand - $20, a few packs of strings - $10, and whatever else you might need and that $500 "bargain" guitar you just found winds up costing you closer to $700.

No one was blasting into my drum pedal. I live with two friends. One of them bought Rock band around release. The other roommate was our designated drummer. He learned how to drum on Set A and we have yet to break the pedal after about a month. When we decided to buy our own set, Set B, the pedal broke within three or so days, with the same drummer on it. The reason is broke is because its a poorly engineered piece of equipment. If you play without a shoe on, your foot will flex when you step on the pedal, and right in the center of the pedal, its poorly supported on the underside, and will flex with your foot. Test it, you can feel it flex. A simple extra strip of plastic support on the underside would change this completely.

Furthermore, I don't know what difficulty you're playing on, but when you have to hit a double bass kick on a song on hard, you can't ***** foot it, if you don't step down onto it with intent, you won't hit that note. You don't have to stomp on it, but they made the spring about two coils two long as far as I'm concerned.

The other thing is, no, I'm not being welcomed to the World of an IRL musician, if I went out and spent the 700 bucks on the drum kit I've been looking at, then yes, I would be dealing with real musician problems, but I'm not, I'm playing a really fun rhythm video game. If a DDR pad is faulty, I doubt anyone says "Well yo, thats just how it is on the dance floor!", if a racing wheel is non-responsive, or breaks off the yoke completely, I doubt anyone says "Thats the dangers of vehicles man, welcome to the World of Racing!"

Its a video game, the peripherals should work properly out of the box. Comparing a full metal DDR pad to reinforcing my drum Pedal because its almost guaranteed to break otherwise is a bad analogy, comparing a metal DDR pad to Rock Band is more like I put egg cartons on the walls and added a soundboard to my television to make my room look like a studio.

[AdamWill2]

weenus: I play Expert. I'm ranked #12 on GGHT on PS3. I've full combo'ed Creep. I do not push the pedal 'with intent' to play doubles. I poke it very lightly with my toe.

[whippingboy]

I really hope someone makes a MIDI out interface to use an existing edrum kit with this game. No idea if it's possible- but I've a Roland TD20 that I've "modded" with new rack, extra pads and cymbals and shoot I break REAL drum beaters on pedals- so yeah the RB kit probably won't last- so I play with socks and CHOPSTICKS instead of drumsticks. Would still rather use a real kick pedal though.

I agree- for $170 I didn't expect much, but I also didn't expect shoddy strum bars- glad to see EA stepping up to the plate. This game is too fun to wait a year for a whole redesigned equipment set.

[m_estock]

Again, not belittling the quality issue complaints, but seriously, the $170 price is more than reasonable for what you get.

Actually Zodac, if you look break the drum kit down, you basically have 4 practice pads. The pads are going for $11 for 2 on WWBW. So thats $22 for 4 practice pads. Then theres the wiring and ****ty sensors that go into each of those. That might run you $10 total. Then theres the metal bars and stands holding it up. That might cost you $20 tops. Then the thin plastic bass pedal is what, maybe $3 to make. So theres roughly $55 to make the drum kit, and I'm sure its much less than that, as EA most likely has deals with big time music stores. Add the guitar that feels flimsy and is poorly engineered, a mic, and a disc. You can't possibly tell me that the bundle is worth $170....

[Zadoc]

Weenus, the problem is that you're expecting a $170 bundle (which compared to the price of the game alone selling for $50, is more like $120 worth) to be as durable as a $1,000 electric kit...hell, even the cheapest eDrums on the market are around the $500 mark.

I'm certainly not saying that the kick pedal doesn't have flaws, but for $120 worth of drums (and a guitar and mic) it's quite understandable that corners were cut in the flimsy grade of plastic they used. Again, if you've got to pound on the kick drum to hit double bass notes, then a third party solution will help alleviate breaking the pedal as quickly. Others (myself included) can handle fast kick drum parts without using so much force - I still have my original kick drum pedal in one piece from launch day.

Even real kick pedals costing $100 and more are susceptible to breaking if you use a lot of force on them. Obviously the more money you spend on higher grade gear, the more likely they're able to withstand more abuse.

[Zadoc]

So theres roughly $55 to make the drum kit, and I'm sure its much less than that

Even if we disregard the fact that neither you or I are qualified to make those kinds of estimates, that's still $55 in material costs, added to a $50 game, a guitar controller (that if we compare to GH guitar controllers is roughly worth $40), a mic (that I'd estimate at $20 or less) that's still roughly around $165, and that's without consideration at whatever licensing fees Microsoft and/or Sony may have contributed to among other minor costs that consumers don't comprehend.

Could HMX and EA have made sturdier controllers, sure, but would consumers really be willing to pay $200 or more when the $170 price tag is already a complaint point? Like I said, I would pay it - and I'm sure quite a few of us RB junkies would too - but the general public has a hard enough time with the $170.

[AdamWill2]

zadoc: target periodically sell an incredibly ****ty electronic kit (usually under the Ion brand name, but it's always the same basic kit) for $200 or $300. Not that you'd want to own it, just for the record. :D

[m_estock]

Zadoc, you have to remember that the goal of a company is simply to make money. EA/HMX knew that Rock Band was going to be a huge hit and that it would sell in mass amounts. No way in hell would they sell a game that cost $165 to make for $170 and make a profit of $5 off it. This is America, where our goal is to make the most amount of money off goods made with the cheapest materials. The same holds true for Rock Band.

[weenus]

You guys keep beating around the bush of the point I've made. I'm not saying that our drum pedals should come fashioned out of titanium steel, they could have probably used the same amount of plastic and just designed it better. Its just designed very flimsy, from an engineering standpoint.

Adam, I'd like to have gotten the pedal that you got, the spring on mine probably took about 30 pounds of pressure to compress, if I could just tap my toe, I'd be a far superior drummer. The thing is, my spring was never given a chance to even get worn in, as the pedal broke on me after three days.

[Ventura]

weenus: I play Expert. I'm ranked #12 on GGHT on PS3. I've full combo'ed Creep. I do not push the pedal 'with intent' to play doubles. I poke it very lightly with my toe.

That certainly doesn't sound like any pedal I've got.

If mine doesn't return almost to prone before being pushed down again, it doesn't register. I certainly have to push 'with intent'.

[AdamWill2]

I play heel up. Once the contact is made I release pressure with my toe and the pedal springs back. I don't play heel down, can't get the hang of that.

[m_estock]

Yeah, playing the rock band bass pedal is nothing like playing a real bass pedal. A real one is so much easier on your leg. I can play heel down with no problems.

[rworne]

word, zadoc.

another valuable comparison is the DrumMania drum kit. Not the arcade one (which is a cannibalised Yamaha electronic kit and cosequently awesome), but the home one. It looks like this:

http://www.play-asia.com/paOS-13-71-88-77-8-49-en-15-drummania-70-14xb-43-99.html

and it costs $80 (retail) on its *own*. No game. No guitar. No microphone. No stand. The "bass pedal" is a microswitch in a flimsy square plastic box.

For whatever the unit price of the RB drum kit, it's a damn fine piece of engineering.

I have the DrumMania kit. The drum unit quality itself is pretty good, but the kick pedal is a total joke - even more so than your description. It's a foam pad with a pressure switch in it. It's constructed quite similar to a DDR pad.

5 minutes with it and you just have to yank it and have the computer play the bass pedal or you.

Now, the game itself was a blast. If you had Guitar Freaks too, you had an early predecessor to RockBand since you could play both drums and guitar.

[AdamWill2]

rworne: I have it too (well, I have the even cheaper knock-off third party version, since no one has stock of the Bemani one any more). The snare broke in two days.

I play DM regularly, Vancouver has several arcades that import the latest versions from Japan. The arcade rocks. Console version without a DTX kit, not so much.

I did pass Namida No Regret with that ridiculous pedal once before the snare died. That was hilarious. The pedal moved about ten feet in the course of the song. I had to keep chasing it around the floor.

[skyjumper]

I hit the double bass notes heel down just fine without "intent". Perhaps there are drum kits out there with different spring tensions in them. Mine never needed much force to put down. Nor does it need to fully return to register the next hit.

I play heel down for the majority of most songs, but I need to go heel up for the doubles in the quicker songs to get the accuracy.

If you can accurately hit those double notes heel down.. and not **** up with your sticks because you concentrating on your foot too much, you are pretty darn good.

I am one of those who are pretty OK with what I got for what I paid. Everything works fine.. I feel like I am going to break the pedal sometimes, but.... f'it, I've broken more expensive toys in less time. Take it easy and you are fine. Go f'ing insane.... well then you might want to do some mods.

Don't forget, once the free RMA's are done with, someone still needs to have a market with replacement instruments. Giving cheap instruments for a cheap price may be a well thought out business idea. If I was a mechanic, or someone selling spare car parts, I'd concentrate on fixing Fords... not Hondas.

BTW, the manufacturing costs involved in the kit are only a percentage of the actual costs of making it happen. So far, they have spent much MUCH more money on making that kit than what you have paid them for it. I'm sure they haven't cracked profit yet. Once they have... you will get the same cheap kit for even cheaper ;) That $170 also has to trickle down to the guys who run this site and happily post your complaints about their product... Yes, THAT FAR!!! ;) lol.. kidding guys.. nice site, for real.

[TheBatman9111]

I was under the assumption that the full bundle was going to retail for $200 when it was first announced. Hearing it drop down to $170 was nice to know and easier to afford.

$30 does make a difference...

So does $50....in the other direction.

I would have easily paid UP TO $250 *IF* it were made of higher quality materials.


After studying the forums before we made our decision to buy the set, I had modifications already in mind and was expecting to have to do some work to the peripherals to make the experience better. The experience of playing fake instruments in a fake band...who knew? Apparently Harmonix and thanks to MTV for being able to acquire the music licensing.

What real world benefits are some of us getting from this game? For one, rhythm on drums. Being a "steering wheel" drummer, it opened a whole new world to the actual drumming experience. Mostly with timing, but it was better than before. Thank you, again, Harmonix for bringing this experience and skill to the small majority of masses for console owners.

Could MTV have helped with licensing better equipment from Fender, Roland, Yamaha, etc... To an extent, most likely. Has Mad Catz etc..signed 3rd party equipment licenses yet? I think so...although, I find their stuff to be horrible as in never having luck with their $5 cheaper controllers functioning properly. There are/will be options for others soon.

I see the small market of "upgrade" sellers not lasting too long before accessories to the accessories become commercially available at your local game store.


More later.....time to go home and play RB :D