BWT/Fan Cap/Difficulty Question

[collindv]

I have had Rock Band now for a few weeks and have a band with 3 of my friends. None of them own Rock band or guitar hero, so while I continue to improve on the guitar by playing solo, they are still stuck on easy when they come over.

My question sis this: how is the fan cap calculated, by the AVERAGE level of the band, or by the LOWEST level member?

In other words, if I play on hard, the person playing drums is on easy, and the other two are on medium, does that average out to a medium difficulty level, or does the game see it as easy because that is the lowest level member?

[Edgehopper]

It goes by the lowest band member.

[dfjdejulio]

My question sis this: how is the fan cap calculated, by the AVERAGE level of the band, or by the LOWEST level member?

By the lowest.

[sporkBrigade]

Just to be pre-emptive about it, your friends will never have to go above Medium. You can beat BWT on Medium beginning to end and never go up to Hard, even though you get that little message telling you to go up for more Fans. Fans don't actually mean very much, as they only unlock optional content that's really hard to complete.

But yes, they will all have to be on at least Medium to progress through to the Hall of Fame. 3 Expert and 1 Easy = Easy credit.

[DravenGSX]

Only if by "beat" you mean completing the Hall of Fame induction ceremony. If, you mean actually completing all of the parts of the game, then you cannot "beat" it on medium.

[sporkBrigade]

Only if by "beat" you mean completing the Hall of Fame induction ceremony. If, you mean actually completing all of the parts of the game, then you cannot "beat" it on medium.

Of course that's what I mean by "beat" the game. That's what that word means within context of a video game.

I don't "Beat" Mass Effect by visiting every planet. I "Beat" it by completing the main storyline misisons against Saren.

I don't "Beat" Grand Theft Auto by completing every Race. I "Beat" it by avenging my Mama's Murder.

I don't "Beat" Mario 64 by Collecting every single star on every single level. I "Beat" it by defeating Bowser.

I don't "Beat" Rock Band's Band World Tour by playing every last gig available, even the optional challenging ones. I "Beat" it by getting into the Hall of Fame. The Credits roll and everything. It's awesome.

Don't make it sound like some strange perversion of the word "Beat". If you've decided unlocking 100% of a game is "Beating" it, awesome. But I do not think it means what you think it means. ;)

[Lareden]

Only if by "beat" you mean completing the Hall of Fame induction ceremony. If, you mean actually completing all of the parts of the game, then you cannot "beat" it on medium.

"Completing all parts" of the game and "beating" the game are totally separate things. Nobody (except perhaps you) equates the two. The general consensus is when the credits roll, the game is beaten. Think about it... when you beat assassin's creed and the credits roll, do you not consider it "beat" until you go back and collect every single flag, do every single side-quest, sync every viewpoint, get every achievement, etc?

[collindv]

OK, that's what i was afraid of, but thanks for the replies. In my opinion that takes away one of the most fun aspects of this game, which is the ability for non-gamers to pick up and play and have a great time. Hell, after enough beers on a Friday night I wouldn't mind coasting through some of the BWT on easy myself :-)

[dfjdejulio]

Only if by "beat" you mean completing the Hall of Fame induction ceremony. If, you mean actually completing all of the parts of the game, then you cannot "beat" it on medium.

Depends on what you mean by "actually completing all of the parts of the game". You can complete both "Hall of Fame" and "Endless Setlist" on medium.

You cannot completely finish playing every single venue on medium, but in practice that's not really more important than finishing every single song while wearing every combination of clothing you can buy from the shop. It's just window dressing, no impact on gameplay. But if you care that much, then yes, you have to go to Hard.

If you have an XB360 and want every achievement for web-based bragging, then you have to go all the way up to Expert, because exactly two achievements require that: "1,000,000 fans" and "platinum artist". I do not believe either achievement is noticeable from within the game itself, though (ie. you don't even get another instrument or article of clothing or anything for either).

[Frederf]

When sporkBrigade posts in fan cap threads I can feel the distant rumble of a freight train climbing the side of a dormant volcano filled with Def Leopard fans. Hear it and be wary.

To the OP: If you and your friends play BWT every once in a while, I guarantee they'll be ready for medium well before the band runs out of easy material and has to play on medium to do anything new.

You can do a heck of a lot with 60,000 fans. You might even be glad that you didn't exhaust the game on easy when you head to medium. I was.


which is the ability for non-gamers to pick up and play and have a great time.

Huh? In my copy of the game non-gamers can pick up the game and have a great time. Maybe your copy is broken. I would return it to the store.

[sporkBrigade]

OK, that's what i was afraid of, but thanks for the replies. In my opinion that takes away one of the most fun aspects of this game, which is the ability for non-gamers to pick up and play and have a great time. Hell, after enough beers on a Friday night I wouldn't mind coasting through some of the BWT on easy myself :-)

You can still do that, but just in Quickplay. Quickplay is the party mode, like Slayer in Halo 3. If you have 12 drunken buddies, awesome. BWT is the campaign mode. You don't play the campaign unless you're taking it a little more seriously.

Of course, if you want to just screw around and don't care about the challenge, then just hit up some "Make a Setlist". Trust me, drunken make a setlist is insanely fun.

[collindv]

Points all well taken. I din't mean to imply that it was less fun, and I understand trying to get everyone to increrase their difficulty levels. I however don't like the band quick play, I like to feel like I'm playing FOR something.

Perhaps there should be some sort of tour for bands similar to the solo tours where you just proceed through the songlist with each song getting progressively harder. Don't know, just a thought

[sporkBrigade]

Points all well taken. I din't mean to imply that it was less fun, and I understand trying to get everyone to increrase their difficulty levels. I however don't like the band quick play, I like to feel like I'm playing FOR something.

Perhaps there should be some sort of tour for bands similar to the solo tours where you just proceed through the songlist with each song getting progressively harder. Don't know, just a thought

Actually, what I'd love to death would be to add 3 things into Quickplay. First, the ability to choose from a list of unlocked Venues. Second, the ability to Make a setlist, and choose how many songs are in that setlist. Say anywhere from 2-10 would be pure awesome. And lastly, the ability to choose from the library of "filler" characters. That way you have a good starting point that your friends can choose from without going through the work of creating each character separately, then figuring out how to get the cash to outfit them.

This would go miles and miles towards making the game the most dominant force in our lives, much more then any attempt to nerf the World Tour.


When sporkBrigade posts in fan cap threads I can feel the distant rumble of a freight train climbing the side of a dormant volcano filled with Def Leopard fans. Hear it and be wary.

You should see the act in person. The walls shake as I type. The wind howls. Windows shatter and babies cry out. The very air *****les your skin and your hair stands on end. It's down right religious.

If anyone on this forum was locked in a room with me for at least 10 minutes, they would walk out a changed person. They might also have to eat through a straw for the rest of their life, but god damn it, they would f***ing love fan caps.

[walkerb52]

You should see the act in person. The walls shake as I type. The wind howls. Windows shatter and babies cry out. The very air *****les your skin and your hair stands on end. It's down right religious.

If anyone on this forum was locked in a room with me for at least 10 minutes, they would walk out a changed person. They might also have to eat through a straw for the rest of their life, but god damn it, they would f***ing love fan caps.

I can attest to that. Btw, thanks for the bendy straw for my b-day spork. Makes those milkshakes much easier to drink since I don't have to move my neck...

[brbenoit]

Of course that's what I mean by "beat" the game. That's what that word means within context of a video game.

I don't "Beat" Mass Effect by visiting every planet. I "Beat" it by completing the main storyline misisons against Saren.

I don't "Beat" Grand Theft Auto by completing every Race. I "Beat" it by avenging my Mama's Murder.

I agree with the statement and using the word beat. I think the issue is that I do not have to set a level to try those races. What I mean is that in BWT you cannot access things without certain level based setting instead of accomplishments.

I understand the concept though and have grown to be fine with it. I think that the problem isn't with the structure but with the implementation. I now view the venues where hard is needed as a challenge not a hinderence. I do feel that Harmonix did mess up with the fan cap in one major way... It is reached WAY too fast on medium. There are too many fans awarded too quickly.

If fans were given out more slowly, then people would not hit that cap and wouldn't get the letdown of 0 fans. Yes it isn't related to any REAL part of the game but it does have an impact on many things.

I think fans should be given out MUCH more slowly.

[DravenGSX]

I'm not perverting the word "beat." I am simply stating that in my opinion (and the opinion of those that I play with), the came has not been "beaten" until all of the gigs have been completed. Myself and the people that I play with are not gamers. We do not play Assassins Creed or Black Box or Halo 3 or any of the rest of that crap. We enjoy Rock Band because it breaks the mold of most console games. I don't consider the gig's that I can see on the screen, but can't access as "side quests."

I also don't wish to complete all of the achievements just so that I can brag online. I wish to complete the achievements because I belive that is part of beating the game. If there are things to do that haven't been done yet, then the game is not beaten. Getting to the Hall of Fame induction ceremony in BWT happens very quickly and there is still a /TON/ of content that doesn't need to be touched to get there.

[sporkBrigade]

I'm not perverting the word "beat." I am simply stating that in my opinion (and the opinion of those that I play with), the came has not been "beaten" until all of the gigs have been completed. Myself and the people that I play with are not gamers. We do not play Assassins Creed or Black Box or Halo 3 or any of the rest of that crap. We enjoy Rock Band because it breaks the mold of most console games. I don't consider the gig's that I can see on the screen, but can't access as "side quests."

I also don't wish to complete all of the achievements just so that I can brag online. I wish to complete the achievements because I belive that is part of beating the game. If there are things to do that haven't been done yet, then the game is not beaten. Getting to the Hall of Fame induction ceremony in BWT happens very quickly and there is still a /TON/ of content that doesn't need to be touched to get there.

Okay, it's your opinion. Awesome, I get that. It's still a perversion of the word "beat" and what it means in Video games. I don't judge you for not playing other Video Games, that's super. But you're playing one now. You're talking to people who have played plenty of games, you're going to have to get used to our termonology, or you're going to give yourself a headache. In our terms, beating a game is getting the credits. Anything beyond this is optional. Restate your "opinion" as many times as you want, this will never change.

By the way, I'm with you, whether you realize it or not. I'm a completionist through and through. The only difference is I believe good games always include challenging content above and beyond just beating the game. Rock Band is a good game for doing so.

[DesiredFX]

Okay, I'm stuck...which is my best entrance line for this thread:

Hey, guys, this thread looks like fun!

or

Looks like you all got started without me!

or maybe

Okay, I'm here. Now we can start.

Whaddaya think?

[sporkBrigade]

I agree with the statement and using the word beat. I think the issue is that I do not have to set a level to try those races. What I mean is that in BWT you cannot access things without certain level based setting instead of accomplishments.


I don't want to be argumentative for the sake of it, but I just want to point out one thing. In other games, you also don't have to set your difficulty for every 2-5 minutes worth of gameplay. This is unique to song based games.

The way the gigs are balanced are a symptom of this uniqueness. In Grand Theft Auto, races near the end take a certain amount of skill to pass. In Rock Band, the gigs in Tokyo take a certain amount of skill to pass. The Methods used to balance that skill requirement aren't actually very important, unless you want to nitpick. Of course having to choose at least Hard difficulty is different then shortening the amount of time you have to complete a race.

But pointing out a uniqueness in Music based gameplay isn't exactly a strong argument against the method Harmonix uses to balance the skill requirement for a gig. And it certainly shouldn't bug you. The gig is hard to do, that's all you really need to know. When you beat it, you're going to high five the nearest human being to you. It's awesome. :D

As for the rest of your post, I agree. The presentation needs to be worked on. I hope future patches or a sequel include a much smoother and easier to understand Fan Cap.

[DesiredFX]

I don't want to be argumentative for the sake of it, but I just want to point out one thing. In other games, you also don't have to set your difficulty for every 2-5 minutes worth of gameplay. This is unique to song based games.

I think it goes beyond even that: for the solo tours, you pick a difficulty and play the whole solo tour on that difficulty. That's the same in RB and GH.

For BWT, each individual player can pick a new difficulty for each gig. That's unheard of: a four-player band could have 20 or more difficulty changes in a half-hour of play.

It doesn't surprise me at all that a unique approach to unlocking the extras came with this unprecedented feature.

[Bluvox]

If you have an XB360 and want every achievement for web-based bragging, then you have to go all the way up to Expert, because exactly two achievements require that: "1,000,000 fans" and "platinum artist". I do not believe either achievement is noticeable from within the game itself, though (ie. you don't even get another instrument or article of clothing or anything for either).

About half of them require at least Hard, and those are the "Big in XXX" ones. I've found one of them so far that doesn't require you to play on Hard so far.

[sporkBrigade]

Okay, I'm stuck...which is my best entrance line for this thread:

Hey, guys, this thread looks like fun!

or

Looks like you all got started without me!

or maybe

Okay, I'm here. Now we can start.

Whaddaya think?
How about:

I'm here. Prepare to be be
http://icanhascheezburger.files.wordpress.com/2007/12/funny-pictures-cat-pwns-dog.jpg

...Just my vote...

[Frederf]

Woah woah, DesiredFX is here? Everyone start over, he came in late.

[brbenoit]

But pointing out a uniqueness in Music based gameplay isn't exactly a strong argument against the method Harmonix uses to balance the skill requirement for a gig. And it certainly shouldn't bug you. The gig is hard to do, that's all you really need to know. When you beat it, you're going to high five the nearest human being to you. It's awesome. :D

As for the rest of your post, I agree. The presentation needs to be worked on. I hope future patches or a sequel include a much smoother and easier to understand Fan Cap.

My issue is less with the requirement of certain settings vs. the way in which it is presented that creates the most heartache for people. The presentation has resulted in the issue people bring up WAY more than the technical implementation.

Something as simple as not showing Tokyo, for example, until someone is close to being able to play there limits the "disappointment" of not being able to play there.

90% of my personal issues could have been avoided through better presentation of the skill structure.

The other 10% is the least common denominator of bands. 3 Hard and 1 Medium should be closer to Hard band rating. Or a better example 1 on Easy and 1 on Hard should be treated as medium. Another problem unique to a group based game.

[sporkBrigade]

...The other 10% is the least common denominator of bands. 3 Hard and 1 Medium should be closer to Hard band rating. Or a better example 1 on Easy and 1 on Hard should be treated as medium. Another problem unique to a group based game.

Actually, I personally don't see it that way, but I have similiar desires. I don't see a need to give more weight to 1 easy and 1 hard vs. 1 easy and 1 medium. In practice, I find that as soon as you have one person on Easy, the gig is Easy. Someone else optionally upping their difficulty doesn't have much of an effect.

A simliar belief I have however, I think 2 people on Hard and 4 people on Hard are very different cases.

I've said it before, but I'd be a supporter of more caps. Current caps as is could apply to 2 person bands, but I would add additional caps above the current ones for 3 person bands, then 4 person bands. I know there are people who will have that knee jerk reaction of "Why screw over 2 person bands!!!1" But the reality is that getting 4 hard levels players is much much harder then 2 hard level players, and the fan caps should reflect that imo. If you're a fan of the whole flexible fan system idea, I think this could apply there as well. The fastest rate of fan gain should be available to 4 people playing on expert, because that is the hardest feat in the game and deserves the greatest reward.

Anyway, I think that is another way to alleviate fan cap woes while promoting the act of bringing more people into your band. 2 player bands can still progress as normal, and 4 person bands would get a slight advantage/reward for their accomplishments.

And again, I totally agree with the rest of your post. :P

[DravenGSX]

Okay, I'm stuck...which is my best entrance line for this thread:

Hey, guys, this thread looks like fun!

or

Looks like you all got started without me!

or maybe

Okay, I'm here. Now we can start.

Whaddaya think?

I believe it should simply be:

"Yo, get over it."

[DesiredFX]

I believe it should simply be:

"Yo, get over it."

And so it should have been.

I'm gonna have a tattoo made.

[Frederf]

But what if you want to transfer the tattoo to another character?

[alfields326]

Anyone know what the fan limits are for each difficulty level?

[Frederf]

Easy: 60,000
Medium: 260,000 ?
Hard: 600,000
Expert: Unlimited

[Lareden]

I think I'm the odd man out here, but I actually think they did a brilliant job with the fan caps. If they got rid of them then they'd have to put in something like "you need x silver check marks to play this gig." Fans make much more sense.

Removing difficulty restrictions would be annoying to me. I'm not angry that I can't play some gig until I get better, It makes me want to get better so I can play there, and it gives some reward for playing at a higher difficulty. I bought the game in the hopes that it would be kind of like a drum-simulator, meaning playing the game drums would be very much like real drums and I would gain some skill from it. Aside from the lack of hi-hat pedal it has lived up to that.

The difficulty levels are great because 'easy' just kind of gets you used to translating the scrolling notes to the instrument, 'medium' trains you to keep a beat, 'hard' is similar to the real beat but an easy version of it, and 'expert' is very much like playing the actual drum pattern of the song.

[Lareden]

I started out on medium when I got the game and thought "hey this isn't too bad" so I stepped it up to hard but started failing a few songs in. After everyone left, I played the medium solo tour but still failed about halfway through. So I went back and played through easy. The first few songs are insultingly easy on easy mode, but towards the end they're enjoyable.

After that I had a much easier time of the medium tour, but still had a few tough spots, but eventually I got them all. Hard was proving to be a challenge, so I took a break from it halfway through the solo tour.

I played a bunch of BWT with friends for the next month. We've got 5 bands, 3 of those bands have over 600 stars. After that I took a break from Rock Band and played through some other games (Assassin's Creed, Uncharted, etc.), but now I'm back to playing Rock Band several times a week.

I got on the solo tour bus again and was surprised that I could easily get through almost all of the 'hard' solo tour now even after taking a break, because of all the BWT "practice" I had. I stepped up to 'expert' and found that beating the 'hard' tour made me a lot better. 'Expert' is still tough for me. I had to go into practice mode for the first time in order to understand how to drum a certain song. I'm working my way through the sets though. I'm currently at fifty-something songs beaten on expert difficulty. I previously thought I'd never get that far, but now I'm thinking I can beat them all eventually.

So the moral of the story is, just keep playing and having fun at whatever difficulty you're comfortable on. Before you know it you'll be able to step up to the next level and do things you didn't think you were capable of.

[collindv]

So the moral of the story is, just keep playing and having fun at whatever difficulty you're comfortable on. Before you know it you'll be able to step up to the next level and do things you didn't think you were capable of.

Well, to the original point of my post, I have no problem practicing and getting better, as I own the game. It's when my non-gamer friends who obviously can't practice at home come over on the weekends to play.

[Frederf]

The "big man" (or big woman) thing to do is play where you're comfortable and let your friends play at their own level, but don't let them dally around in supreme comfort. Sure you aren't being rewarded directly for playing above the band level, but that's part of being a band, sticking together, playing as one.

Not to forget that an expert bassist hitting all the notes is really going to help a medium band's score and help them excel at that level.

All I can suggest is loan the game out to a friend at a time and/or play more often.