Work for the Play

[Xzyliac]

Should you need to work for encores? I mean if you can just beat the songs and there's the encore waiting do you think that detracts from them even mattering or being special? They basically become another song in the setlist.

Thoughts?

[Eman311]

Explain what you mean by "work" for them and I'll give you my thoughts.

[Akaymay]

Explain what you mean by "work" for them and I'll give you my thoughts.

I'm pretty sure he means that you have to actually do well on the songs. Rather than just complete them. You have to earn the encore, rather than just get one at the end of every set.

I think that would be good. Like, they would total up the score from all the songs, and if you have above a certain score, you get an encore. If not, no encore.

[ThePaska]

The idea for encores is cool, but like you say it only really works once, then it is just part of the setlist. I don't know if it is really worth having them. What I would really like to see (even though it would be time consuming) is for the game to have mini-concerts, where you play the 5 songs in the teir back to back with the 5th one being an encore. This would be a lot of fun I think, and really make it feel more like you are playing in a Rock Band at a live concert.

[Xzyliac]

I'm pretty sure he means that you have to actually do well on the songs. Rather than just complete them. You have to earn the encore, rather than just get one at the end of every set.
.
Yeah basically.

Like they say in Guitar Hero they're gonna have to WANT you to come back before playing an encore.

[Eman311]

I like that idea.

To earn the encore, pick any 5 songs from that tier or previous tiers, earn a certain rating in your mini concert and that gets you the encore

[FreQstar]

I think that would be good. Like, they would total up the score from all the songs, and if you have above a certain score, you get an encore. If not, no encore.

I may be wrong but I think that's how the "encore" and bonus songs in Frequency and Amplitude were unlocked. I'll have to go find my copies of them to make sure. You never know, they may go back to a system like that with RB.

[ThePaska]

I like that idea.

To earn the encore, pick any 5 songs from that tier or previous tiers, earn a certain rating in your mini concert and that gets you the encore

Yea I like that, it could be fun to do, add some replay value (as if it is really needed) to previous songs, and make it a bit more difficult to access some of the more wanted to play songs. Although I would hope that after you pick 5 for an encore, you cannot do that same 5 again.

[Eman311]

That would be kind of a picky thing to porgram into a game. Leave it up to preference if they want to re-do the same set.

Actually it wouldnt be too hard to make someones rating a little worse if they play the same songs every encore. Give them some bonus points for playing "rarities"

[JB4GDI]

I may be wrong but I think that's how the "encore" and bonus songs in Frequency and Amplitude were unlocked. I'll have to go find my copies of them to make sure. You never know, they may go back to a system like that with RB.

Yeah, it did work like that. You needed to do really really well in the 4 songs before you could unlock the 5th. I kinda liked that...

-Jaime

[dlisapussy]

you should have to 3 star every song before it

3 starring a song is not as easy in RB, you can get no stars, so i think 3 would be the biggest challenge without it being too hard

[parastroke7]

It would be nice if you had to get a 4-star to get the Encore. BUT, in the last two sets or so, if you get a 5-star on all other songs, you get the Encore song plus a special Encore song that only comes if you 5-star every song in those sets.

Basically, if someone has those two special Encore songs in their set list, then you know they're not to be trifled with.

[Terranova]

It would be nice if you had to get a 4-star to get the Encore. BUT, in the last two sets or so, if you get a 5-star on all other songs, you get the Encore song plus a special Encore song that only comes if you 5-star every song in those sets.

Basically, if someone has those two special Encore songs in their set list, then you know they're not to be trifled with.

I like your idea, but on what level of difficulty are we talking here.. it's far easier to 5 star on easy which wouldn't be much of a challenge to make to the special encore worthy enough and i wouldn't want to see them at expert only as most players wouldn't be able to unlock them, I would say either medium, hard or expert unlocks the special encores that seems fair as most are able to at least 5 star on medium plus it's more of a challenge.

[parastroke7]

I like your idea, but on what level of difficulty are we talking here.. it's far easier to 5 star on easy which wouldn't be much of a challenge to make to the special encore worthy enough and i wouldn't want to see them at expert only as most players wouldn't be able to unlock them, I would say either medium, hard or expert unlocks the special encores that seems fair as most are able to at least 5 star on medium plus it's more of a challenge.

I like your addition to the idea. I also thought, just to even it out, make it to where there are one of 3 possible encore songs, depending on what difficulty you choose. Easy or Medium will yield the same Encore song no matter how well you do. 5-starring all songs of a set on Hard will yield a special Encore song. 5-starring all songs of a set on Expert will yield a special encore song for Expert, which in turn unlocks all 3 encore songs. Sounds a little complex, but it could be worked into the game if there's going to be THAT many songs.

[KillerIsMe]

This sounds like a good idea ^_^ I like it.

About the Special Encore, I think it would be best to have them at Medium (and higher) since not everyone is capable of pulling 5-stars on the hardest songs on Hard or Expert.

[onlyrob]

The Special Encore idea might be a little too much, but the main encore idea is pretty awesome.

I approve.

[whofan]

I hate to be the dissenter here, but I will be.

I honestly think that this isn't a great idea, as it doesn't allow people who aren't great at the game to unlock all of the songs. Those casual gamers who like to play but don't have the time to get down songs to a certain standard are being left out in the cold and will be unable to play songs that they may wish to play.

I understand what you guys are going for, but I don't believe it is wise. It can make the game just that much more inaccessable to the average joe who doesn't have a ton of time to put into the game.

Besides which, the first thing I do when I get a GH game is go through the campaign on medium and unlock all of the tunes so I can play them whenever I want. By doing this I don't really care about my rating (although it's usually an average of about 4 stars) and I can unlock everything I want to play. I go back later to get the better scores.

[Huwonk]

I agree, but hopefully there will be some type of "concert" mode so you can select an encore, and it only activates if you did well enough (maybe at least a 4* or something) during the concert.

[whofan]

Now that isn't a bad idea. Select all of the songs you want and select your encore, but you'll only get that encore if you do well enough.

Of course, again this will be outside of the campaign and unlocking songs will not be dependant on it. I just really hate the idea that I won't be unable songs without putting a lot of effort into things. I just think that it would be unfair to those who don't have the time to put into perfecting the game.

[Bakkster_Man]

My guess is the band world tour mode is going to be even cooler than any of this, with crazy encores to boot :cool:

[Huwonk]

My guess is the band world tour mode is going to be even cooler than any of this, with crazy encores to boot :cool:

Agreed. I'm pretty confident that the World Tour mode will just be leaps and bounds above anything ever done in a music/rhythm game before. Then again, that could be the Harmonix fanboy in me just being hopeful. :)

[_GABO_]

I think that would be good. Like, they would total up the score from all the songs, and if you have above a certain score, you get an encore. If not, no encore.
I think that's a good idea, kind of like what Harmonix did with Amplitude. You would beat two or three songs in each "arena" then there was a song ("boss") that you had to get a certain total score to unlock that song, then yet another "boss" song if you beat the first boss.

[FreQstar]

I hate to be the dissenter here, but I will be.

I honestly think that this isn't a great idea, as it doesn't allow people who aren't great at the game to unlock all of the songs. Those casual gamers who like to play but don't have the time to get down songs to a certain standard are being left out in the cold and will be unable to play songs that they may wish to play.

I understand what you guys are going for, but I don't believe it is wise. It can make the game just that much more inaccessable to the average joe who doesn't have a ton of time to put into the game.

Besides which, the first thing I do when I get a GH game is go through the campaign on medium and unlock all of the tunes so I can play them whenever I want. By doing this I don't really care about my rating (although it's usually an average of about 4 stars) and I can unlock everything I want to play. I go back later to get the better scores.

I have to agree with you.
Just put your self in the shoes of John Q. Casual Gamer who heard that his favorite song is in the game just to find out he has to 5 star Jordan on expert to be able to play it. Interesting challenge would go to Infinitely frustrating instantly. Now I'm not saying they should have everything just handed to you from the start but there's other ways to reward skill. Sure the battle axes in GH are kind of pointless but theres still pride in earning them with out taking anything away from those who can't. (note: as much pride as you can get for hitting rainbow coloured buttons on a plastic guitar)

Oh, and in comparison to frequency and amplitudes "boss" songs. There's songs In both games I'll never unlock, not that big a deal when those songs are mostly bands of the caliber you would see as bonus songs in GH, but considering that GH encores (and presumably RB, if they keep encores) are some of the biggest bands in the game, your going to really anger a large chuck of your customer base. Just my opinion though.

[Xzyliac]

I have to agree with you.
Just put your self in the shoes of John Q. Casual Gamer who heard that his favorite song is in the game just to find out he has to 5 star Jordan on expert to be able to play it. Interesting challenge would go to Infinitely frustrating instantly. Now I'm not saying they should have everything just handed to you from the start but there's other ways to reward skill. Sure the battle axes in GH are kind of pointless but theres still pride in earning them with out taking anything away from those who can't. (note: as much pride as you can get for hitting rainbow coloured buttons on a plastic guitar)

Oh, and in comparison to frequency and amplitudes "boss" songs. There's songs In both games I'll never unlock, not that big a deal when those songs are mostly bands of the caliber you would see as bonus songs in GH, but considering that GH encores (and presumably RB, if they keep encores) are some of the biggest bands in the game, your going to really anger a large chuck of your customer base. Just my opinion though.

And there is where you find that balance between casual and hardcore. That doesn't mean it can't happen it just means you need to put some thought into it. You presume we mean something of Jordan calliber but that's your presumption. Not reality. The reality is we recognize that and are trying to find that balance. Otherwise everyone would come on the thread, say "Good idea", and leave. We're not idiots. We see there's a problem and we also see the potential if that problem could be resolved.

Damn so linear minded.

[whofan]

And there is where you find that balance between casual and hardcore. That doesn't mean it can't happen it just means you need to put some thought into it. You presume we mean something of Jordan calliber but that's your presumption. Not reality. The reality is we recognize that and are trying to find that balance. Otherwise everyone would come on the thread, say "Good idea", and leave. We're not idiots. We see there's a problem and we also see the potential if that problem could be resolved.

Damn so linear minded.

Don't jump to conclusions so quickly. What we are saying is not "don't do this!". What we are saying is put yourself into the shoes of a casual gamer who has, lets say 3.5 hours a week to play the game (at most) and may not be great at the game but just loves to play his favorite song regardless.

Now, you're telling that person that in order to unlock his favorite song he's going to have to dedicate more time to the game (presuming we're talking about a difficulty level higher than easy to unlock everything (as it currently is) to get better at it in order to play that song.

I really don't think that is fair to said person and it would be an immediate turn-off to me if that were to happen (Thankfully I can beat the game on medium with little difficulty, so I'm not worried. But this is not me I'm proposing, I'm speaking for the people who do not come to these boards in the first place). I understand the need to have unlockables to reward the hardcore fans and players, HOWEVER the rewards should NOT be things like popular songs as that is going to alienate people and that's the last thing you want.

Balance is important, I agree, but you do have to take the lowest common denominator into thought when proposing things. In this case it's people who just want to have a good time with the game, play their favorite songs and unlock the main game stuff in the small amount of time and with whatever skill they happen to have.

Not everybody is an expert at the game, and I know many people who have a great time with it but still fail at the medium level. Are you going to tell these people that they can't play their favorite song?

Think about it and see if you can come up with a satisfactory solution. I, myself do not see one except the way they had it for GH. I think the solution being proposed here is completely unreasonable to casual gamers and is only a reward to the hardcores.

[FreQstar]

I sincerely apologize if that came across as me attacking everyone else’s ideas or as if I was insulting any other poster's intelligence. Just because I disagree with it doesn’t mean I think the concept is with out merit. It has similar elements to the frequency/amplitude system and I’m a big fan of those games.

Maybe I should have said “something along the lines of Jordan” but I was just saying that as a worst case scenario/ devil’s advocate.

I was just trying to put in my 2 cents by arguing the point of view of the casual gamer who you are unlikely to see on these forums at all, let alone before the game is even released.

The closest thing to this system I can think of in any other genre is a bonus level in some thing like a Mario bros. game, but then there’s a big difference between not being able to play “lava level 2-b” and not being able to play “Tom Sawyer”.

Note: Again, I have to agree with whofan.

Oh and also the closest solution I can think of is making so that if you unlock the encores you only unlock it for that challenge level or lower for all non career modes you play, but then again this may cause other problems.

[parastroke7]

I have to agree with you.
Just put your self in the shoes of John Q. Casual Gamer who heard that his favorite song is in the game just to find out he has to 5 star Jordan on expert to be able to play it. Interesting challenge would go to Infinitely frustrating instantly. Now I'm not saying they should have everything just handed to you from the start but there's other ways to reward skill. Sure the battle axes in GH are kind of pointless but theres still pride in earning them with out taking anything away from those who can't. (note: as much pride as you can get for hitting rainbow coloured buttons on a plastic guitar)

Oh, and in comparison to frequency and amplitudes "boss" songs. There's songs In both games I'll never unlock, not that big a deal when those songs are mostly bands of the caliber you would see as bonus songs in GH, but considering that GH encores (and presumably RB, if they keep encores) are some of the biggest bands in the game, your going to really anger a large chuck of your customer base. Just my opinion though.

*cough* cheatcodes *cough*

Shucks, that's what they're for. To give power to those who are lacking.

[whofan]

*cough* cheatcodes *cough*

Shucks, that's what they're for. To give power to those who are lacking.

Some of us do not like to cheat to get everything, because.... well, it feels like cheating and not earning what we get. Although it's only a game, people still feel like it's cheating themselves in that regards.

I used to use cheat codes all the time, but I always found victories to be empty and stopped using them altogether because I want my unlocks to mean something, as I'm sure a lot of people do.

[Huwonk]

Some of us do not like to cheat to get everything, because.... well, it feels like cheating and not earning what we get. Although it's only a game, people still feel like it's cheating themselves in that regards.

I used to use cheat codes all the time, but I always found victories to be empty and stopped using them altogether because I want my unlocks to mean something, as I'm sure a lot of people do.


Some of us like a challenge to earn everything, though. Your argument works both ways.

[KillerIsMe]

Some of us like a challenge to earn everything, though. Your argument works both ways.

Yeah, but I think it's better to have it too easy than too hard.
I mean, you who want a challange can play the game on Expert and try to get 5 stars on every song there, but the ones that aren't that good should be able to unlock those songs too.

Maybe there could be another way to unlock the Special Encore-songs, like just Beating the game or something? Couldn't that work?

[Xzyliac]

I have to say that while you do present a good argument the fact is any game must be well played to get that special whatever. The feature doesn't need to be finger bleeding hard but enough to make you try and want to do well.

Have a friend who barely games, plays GH on medium, and is happy. He hasn't even beaten the game he just enjoys it. I have another friend who beat expert and she owns no other game but GH. She likes that satisfying feeling of doing better than yesterday. So it goes both ways

[Bakkster_Man]

I think the goal for unlockable content, especially stuff that's challenging to get, is to not make it the primary content of the game. If you have to beat Expert to get any of the announced songs so far, you'd probably feel betrayed.

Not that you should automatically get all of those songs, but the main-game songs should be attainable by everyone, regardless of skill. Keep the difficult unlocks for "extras".

[parastroke7]

About 3 years ago, I started playing every game I came in contact with on the hardest difficulty. It makes it to where you're used to the highest challenge, and no challenge is uncompletable. With this said, I see no point in cheat codes, and I can see how it's made me biased about the whole "5-star everything!" approach.

When I hear of someone finding enjoyment in sucking at easy, or normal, it makes me wonder why the people game at all. It's just something I'm not used to.

[Xzyliac]

Well the point of a game is to have fun. The challenge of a game is to play well. Some take one half better than the other. The object as a dev is to provide that balance.

[gtsmith]

As a player who is not so good (100% of medium completed at 5 stars; can only get to Woman on Hard - although I've quickplayed songs past woman on hard and 5 starred them, so go figure...) I like the existing system. Medium should be the level that unlocks other content, it gives those who are not so good something to work for, and it is still an acheivement (albeit an early one) for those who completely rock on this game.

[Bakkster_Man]

Well the point of a game is to have fun. The challenge of a game is to play well. Some take one half better than the other. The object as a dev is to provide that balance.

Actually, I'd say the goal is to provide both experiences without detracting from the other. So, provide a challenge without significantly affecting the casual players, and providing an enjoyable experience for casual players while keeping the game interesting to hardcore gamers.

So I guess you could say it's a balance...

[Huwonk]

We know very little about the World Tour mode and how content will be unlocked. It would seem that if "World Tour" is really of the magnitude the name suggests, there will be a lot of changes from the GH-style "career" which was very un-career-like and was more like a big set-list. Being able to customize your band with different looks/gear/outfits, not to mention being able to "buy a van or plane to tour*", means we'll probably see something a lot more comprehensive than just "Pick a song.. beat it.. now pick the next song... beat it... rinse and repeat." Maybe you buy songs with "fame" points or something... which you can maybe earn quicker by doing better or playing a higher difficulty on songs.

This is the first next-gen Music/Rhythm game that wasn't already part of some existing franchise, so now is the time to push the envelope with new IP. Harmonix knows this and I can guarantee we'll all be very happy with the system they've developed, whatever it is.

* I can't remember who/where that quote was from, but I remember it catching my attention.

[Bakkster_Man]

We know very little about the World Tour mode and how content will be unlocked. It would seem that if "World Tour" is really of the magnitude the name suggests, there will be a lot of changes from the GH-style "career" which was very un-career-like and was more like a big set-list. Being able to customize your band with different looks/gear/outfits, not to mention being able to "buy a van or plane to tour*", means we'll probably see something a lot more comprehensive than just "Pick a song.. beat it.. now pick the next song... beat it... rinse and repeat." Maybe you buy songs with "fame" points or something... which you can maybe earn quicker by doing better or playing a higher difficulty on songs.

I agree. I'm guessing you unlock songs as you gain fame and "ability" meaning only a super famous band could play, for example, Tom Sawyer, Won't Get Fooled Again, or (for example) Freebird. Again, I doubt anyone will be disappointed.