This whole GH3 comp. patch issue...

[oohwha]

Yeah, so I know all about the financial move Activision made and they suck. I just wanted to go on record as saying I am one of the thousands that would like to see Harmonix and Activision reach some kind of "agreement".

I know it sucks and I hate Activision for it... and I've stopped buying DLC from them on PS3 network... but the fact remains, I've already bought 2 guitars for GH3.


Had I known how amazing Rock Band was, I would have just gotten it instead. But I rushed out to get GH3 for my kids right when it first came out... and then I used Ebay to get a 2nd guitar and sell off the extra game only.

Now I've spent $150 or so and I have GH3 with 2 guitars. And for another $100 I could get a new drum set, mic, and RB game off ebay. But what's the point as long as I have to also buy 2 more guitars for RB?


Right now those guitars look to be selling for a MINIMUM of 60 bucks. And I've tried them out on friends' systems and I have to admit I like the GH3 guitars better.


This being the case, even though I hate Activision and I'm doing what I can to hit them in the wallet... the fact still remains that if I could save some cash and get RB 1 piece at a time, I would probably already own it and have downloaded additional songs.

Yeah, I'm a cheap skate. There are probably a LOT of other cheap skates out there too that own GH3 guitars and don't want the added espense (and clutter for those of us with small homes) of 2 more guitars. I would think Harmonix could pay a small amount for licensing could they not?

I don't know, just venting I guess. If anyone has any suggestions, I'm open to them. GH3 is getting a bit boring but as I look down the road at other potential singing and/or instrumental games coming out... I'm wondering if my house is going to end up looking like a MUSIC STORE should there not be a way to get some universal compatibility happening somehow :(

[InsaneDelight]

Maybe try hitting Harmonix in the wallet also. I doubt this issue is one sided and all Activitions fault.

[jsorge]

If you want this to be settled so badly, would you have a problem if Harmonix paid Activision the money they asked for and then charged you $5-10 to download the patch?

That would at least get your issue solved.

[MF-PO'd]

Yes, my friend, this whole situation is ridiculous. I have been a frustrated consumer (of both RB and GH) since November when this mess started. It has just been disappointing news after disappointing news followed by delays and more delays. Now, even the Nyko guitar which would have been a solution has been pushed into April.

Even still, these guitars should have been compatible long ago... I'm talking like in December. It's not so much that I'm cheap, but I'm not prepared to pay for an overpriced Strat on eBay. There's the cost issue, the reliability issue with the Strat, and most importantly to me, the convenience issue. I, too, don't want to turn my apartment into a music store. It shouldn't be unreasonable to ask that one controller works with two games, but apparently it is.

I'm sure Harmonix doesn't even care anymore, and they probably don't read these threads, but this problem should still be fixed through a resolution between two companies.

[oohwha]

Good point jsorge. Personally, I actually think I would pay like $4.99 or something to download the patch.

I hadn't even thought about the convenience of the wireless guitars for GH3 when I made my original post. There are no wireless guitars for RB correct? Or are there?

Anyway, yes I can understand where you are coming from and to be quite honest, maybe Activision should just strike a deal with Harmonix where THEY (Activision) posts the 5 dollar patch on the PSN and we can decide if we want to download it or not.

That way they can still be money grubbing b******s and we all get to use our GH3 guitars with RB... so everybody wins.

Then I could start downloading songs for RB and have even more variety.


These music games are quite addicting :P

[emollamas]

I can relate to your cheap nature. However; your view of activision being the culprit here is a bit short sighted. Lets look at some of the obvious factors at work here. If a patch were released that would mean reduced stand alone guitar sales for both developers (should either ever actually release one) So its not in either companies best interest to release said patch. As far as whos to blame here, there are press releases from both developers blaming the other for stonewalling the patch. This is because they mutualy agree that releasing the patch would hurt stand alone guitar sales. And lets not forget Sonys role in all of this. The erason the guitars are cross compatible on the xbox is beacause microsoft demanded it. Now Sony could have done the same thing, but lacked the testicular fortitude. Sony COULD still demand the release of the patch, but again... So you see you really cant blame this ALL on activision.

[Destnaru]

Yeah, I would be willing to pay for the patch too.
It just makes me more and more angry at Activision every time I turn on the Rock Band game and can't play with a second guitar.
But I am willing to pay for the patch.
Someone start a poll on who would be willing to pay for the patch.

[oohwha]

Good point emollamas. I'm sure you're right... I just figured my first post on the Rock Band forums about the GH3 compatibility issue would be more warmly received if I bashed on Activision :P

As for them losing out on hardware sales, the trend in consoles has always been little to know profit on the hardware and then big bucks made from the sales of the games.

How I see this relating to the musical games of today would be that each company is releasing downloadable content for a fee... and my guess is they will release hundreds and hundreds of dollars worth of content over the next year or 2.

So which is worse, losing 20 bucks net profit per proprietary guitar sale - up to a maximum of 2 additional guitar sales per household - or losing 50 cents per DLC song not downloaded?

Assuming of course that DLC is more profitable than hardware...


I don't know, now I'm speaking about things of which I have no clue - like profit margins for hardware and DLC :P


I still like the idea above to have the patch charged for. But now that you bring up the point of them selling fewer guitars, it may be a losing battle.

Too bad some accountant can't run some numbers and show that DLC profits will exceed potential guitar sales losses or something. That would be nice :)

[killcount21]

I don't think lower guitar sales has as big an impact as everyone thinks. Now that the first generation of both games are out on the newer systems, you are going to see a sharp decline in guitar hardware from now on.

The most important thing now is going to be moving copies. You are going to move a lot more copies if a person who is a fan of one game, but may like songs or a new feature in the other game, only has to put 60 dollars down on the game.

Harmonix has the patch done, they could patch it today if they wanted. Activision stopped the patch. They bought their cash cow and they are going to milk it till it is dry.I would say give them one more release before they cave because Rock Band is drawing in more players.

[emollamas]

Now dont accept this as gospel. But I dont see the profit margin on DLC being much. Heres why. By the time you pay liscensing rights (and the attorneys needed to aquire said rights) and a software team to convert the song to note charts etc... I would assume that $1.99 is getting spread pretty darn thin. Where as a $60 piece of plastic outsourced to a chinese sweat shop would likely return $50-$57 per unit. (to put this in scope it cost roughly .50 cents to manufacture the cd you pay $15 for) I may be wrong on this one, but I would place the higher margine on the molded plastic. Bottum Line? There will be no patch until AFTER the release of stand alone guitars.

[oohwha]

I'm willing to wait till after the release of stand alone guitars for a patch. Hopefully you're right about that.


As for product costs... the shipping, warehousing, and retail store front costs have always been bigger than the production costs over in SE Asia. Not to mention the costs of nationwide advertising campaigns if they choose to do so.

Hence the reason why my 40" LCD TV cost me $1568.00 back 8 months ago and the same make and model still retails at Best Buy for $1599.00 BEFORE tax. I bought from a warehouse so the Best Buy employees and the trucking company employees didn't take their salary costs out of my payment - saving me hundreds.

Plus the warehouse I bought from doesn't spend millions on TV commercials every year like Best Buy.

The TV I own probably costs less than $100 to mass produce off the manufacturing line. That's the beauty of manufacturing :)

(provided we ignore the distruction of nature it's caused over the years, but that's a whole other discussion, huh?)


Anywho, I appreciate everyone's opinions, feedback, and conjecture on this issue. While we may not know all the in's and out's of Harmonix and Activision, it's fun to try and figure this stuff out hypothetically :)

(plus it seems to relieve some of the minor stress this small inconvenience causes me I suppose) :P

[Destnaru]

There is already a patch released by Harmonix to Sony for the purpose of standard controller compatibility but Sony will not install it because Activision is telling Sony that they want compensation from Harmonix for use of their "intellectual property" first.
Activision put out a statement.
"we feel that we should be compensated for the use of our intellectual property"
But the fact of the matter is that they don't have any legitimate claim on the spec.
So Activision puts out a cover statement saying that they are waiting for Harmonix to negotiate with them.
Well Harmonix is not willing to negotiate with them because Activision has no legitimate claim and is only trying to extort money from Harmonix.

I done quite a bit of research on the topic and it really puts me off on Activision all together because they are just trying to grab some of another companys profit for themselves because Rock Band is growing in popularity and Guitar Hero is losing popularity.
There is a long back story on the development of Rock Band and the MTV deal but if you research it out for yourself you will understand why there is such bitterness and animosity on the part of Activision.

[BobbyPJam]

Waste.

Of.

Time.




If something was going to be done, and if Harmonix really could do something, IT WOULD HAVE BEEN DONE ALREADY.

In the end, everyone except the consumer got what they wanted. Activision got to screw HMX. HMX got to save face AND have the furor die down just in time for the stand alone guitars to come out. Sony pretty much stayed out of it and came out smelling like roses.

Win Win. For the companies at least.

We all need to just suck it up and accept the fact that this was never about what we wanted. They are running a business and have stockholders to answer to. As much as all of us can say we're holier than thou, we'd have probably done the exact same thing all the way around. Whether you were Sony, Activision, or Harmonix, everyone acted in their own best interests.

That's capitalism for ya.

The sooner the consumers realize that they are powerless in this situation, then maybe we can finally get some relief from the pointless complaining on these boards.

[oohwha]

The sooner the consumers realize that they are powerless in this situation, then maybe we can finally get some relief from the pointless complaining on these boards.

That's pretty much what the forums are for. They give the consumer a layer in between their immediate anger and frustration and a "real" layer of support or customer service. Within "the forum lair", we can all vent and voice frustrations in the hopes that by some stroke of luck an employee will see what we type and get it into the hands of someone that will do something about it.

But you're right, nothing will be done. Most of us are too busy or too intimidated... or just plain too pacifistic... to actually go to the trouble of writing a letter or making a phone call and b*tching our way to the top of the food chain at any of these big companies.

As you say, this is all about capitalism and the big companies will continue to make profits and forge ahead regardless of the small percentage of people like us that want a patch because of preference or finances or what have you.


Personally, I just had some free time at work and decided to pop up a couple of posts on these forums to see what the community (that's been dealing with this issue for months now) has to say about something I've only known was a problem for about a month now :)

So far I've gotten some pretty good info. It's just too bad that companies as big as this one can't devote enough man-power (sorry ladies, guess I should say "people-power" huh?) toward having actually company representatives answer various threads like this one.

Instead they just have to post general disclaimers and/or "update" sticky threads. Once a person like me has read all those, he (or she) still feels like there's more that needs to be discussed.


Oh well, maybe some day there will be an AI program powerful enough to answer all our questions and comments 1-on-1 and make us feel like the individuals we are... rather than a pack of animals being herded along :P

[asalemi]

Waste.

Of.

Time.




If something was going to be done, and if Harmonix really could do something, IT WOULD HAVE BEEN DONE ALREADY.

In the end, everyone except the consumer got what they wanted. Activision got to screw HMX. HMX got to save face AND have the furor die down just in time for the stand alone guitars to come out. Sony pretty much stayed out of it and came out smelling like roses.

Win Win. For the companies at least.

We all need to just suck it up and accept the fact that this was never about what we wanted. They are running a business and have stockholders to answer to. As much as all of us can say we're holier than thou, we'd have probably done the exact same thing all the way around. Whether you were Sony, Activision, or Harmonix, everyone acted in their own best interests.

That's capitalism for ya.

The sooner the consumers realize that they are powerless in this situation, then maybe we can finally get some relief from the pointless complaining on these boards.



Well said dude -- agree 1000%

[MF-PO'd]

Waste.

Of.

Time.




If something was going to be done, and if Harmonix really could do something, IT WOULD HAVE BEEN DONE ALREADY.

In the end, everyone except the consumer got what they wanted. Activision got to screw HMX. HMX got to save face AND have the furor die down just in time for the stand alone guitars to come out. Sony pretty much stayed out of it and came out smelling like roses.

Win Win. For the companies at least.

We all need to just suck it up and accept the fact that this was never about what we wanted. They are running a business and have stockholders to answer to. As much as all of us can say we're holier than thou, we'd have probably done the exact same thing all the way around. Whether you were Sony, Activision, or Harmonix, everyone acted in their own best interests.

That's capitalism for ya.

The sooner the consumers realize that they are powerless in this situation, then maybe we can finally get some relief from the pointless complaining on these boards.

These are good points, as sad as they are. I just want to point out one thing about the 'waste of time' comment. For me personally, it's not really because what am I to do? Go play Rock Band instead? :p I want to play this game for the guitar only (I bought the standalone version), so it's not like I can even play this game the way I intended when I bought it. So, with that said, I'll be giving these companies a piece of mind until there's a solution that works for me.

In general, I don't like to be taken advantage of as a consumer. I give many companies a piece of my mind when I don't like something. It's just in my nature to not sit back even if it is a waste of time in the end (many times it isn't).

[eVan_Diesel]

Yes, my friend, this whole situation is ridiculous. I have been a frustrated consumer (of both RB and GH) since November when this mess started. It has just been disappointing news after disappointing news followed by delays and more delays. Now, even the Nyko guitar which would have been a solution has been pushed into April.

Even still, these guitars should have been compatible long ago... I'm talking like in December. It's not so much that I'm cheap, but I'm not prepared to pay for an overpriced Strat on eBay. There's the cost issue, the reliability issue with the Strat, and most importantly to me, the convenience issue. I, too, don't want to turn my apartment into a music store. It shouldn't be unreasonable to ask that one controller works with two games, but apparently it is.

I'm sure Harmonix doesn't even care anymore, and they probably don't read these threads, but this problem should still be fixed through a resolution between two companies.

Yea, what you said.

[HeadHunter67]

If satisfying its customer base was more important to HMX than profit, they'd negotiate with Activision. They haven't.

Honestly, HMX benefits more than anyone from the delay of this patch because currently, the only way for a PS3 user to get a second guitar is to buy another bundle.

[Xero314-2]

The sooner the consumers realize that they are powerless in this situation, then maybe we can finally get some relief from the pointless complaining on these boards.

A single consumer may be powerless but consumers are extremely powerful. Each of these companies could be brought completely to their knees by a significant number of consumers. I happen to be one of those willing to boycott Activision over this issue (and a few other BS moves from Activision in the past) and if others did the same you would se significant change. When (if) the sales of GH:Aerosmith flop you will see Activision straighten up quickly. But since most consumers think like the above poster, then we probably won't see any unified effort to make change.

[aray]

Bottum Line? There will be no patch until AFTER the release of stand alone guitars.

Thats a pretty solid statement and holds alot of truth.

I have the 360 version but have both consoles. I chose the 360 on day one due to Xbox Live is the best thing created for online gaming.

I feel for the PS3 owners that are caught in the middle of this HMX / Activision war.

The March issue of Game informer has the GOOD, BAD, and UGLY section where as the ( UGLY ) they printed : Activision is at fault for wanting more money.

Ok as a consumer this bothers me. I can't help but help think that HMX is just as much at fault. It's been 4 months since the release and this so called "PATCH"

We are now in the 2nd quarter of thier fiscal year and still HMX has not released a 1st party Guitar for 360 or PS3. Damn the patch. Where is the support for 1st party controllers. Imagine if consoles launched without a second controller to purchase for 4 months. Thats un heard of.

How can a 4 player designed game come with 3 controllers and not have a marketing scheme for the 4th player? Shame on any magazine or news article to finger point at any one company.

I love Rock Band, I hate Politics and thats all this boils down too.
I like guitar hero, but i hate that they also do not have a 2nd guitar for WII or any 1st party cordless guitars for PS3 or Xbox. It's like they dont give a crap about their customers either. Again it's all Politics and we the consuemr are dumb enough to keep feeding the COW with Cash.

Would you purchase a car if you could only buy 3 wheels the day it released?
Would you buy a cell phone if the charging cable was 4 months away from being released ?
Would you buy a 4 Tickets from a Airline that says " Sorry but we only have room for 3 on our flight". Your 4th member may have to wait half a year.

Ask yourself this question then... would you buy Guitar Hero IV or RB II ?
98.5% of you will say yes. <-- speculated guess.

So whos at fault? Game Informer take notes: THE CONSUMER IS AT FAULT.

[Bobman32x]

the worst thing is that they are over charging for these damn guitars. when the SG came out it was $40. Then the wireless one came out for 50. ok, thats fine. well then the 360 comes out and wired xplorers are $50... I walk into Ebgames today. they have seperate controllers for the wii and ps3 for Guitar Hero 3 (oddly no 360 ones. they said they dont know when theyre getting em They are 80 dollars each. EIGHTY DOLLARS! They were HALF that price 2 years ago. And think of the poor wii owner. to use that guitar, they need to spend ANOTHER 40 for a spare remote to pop in there. 120 bucks the the giutar, for 80 bucks i could spend another 10 or 20 depeding on the system for the extra guitar and sell the game by itself back to eb or on ebay or soemthing for 30-40 bucks. I mean thats terrible. I was expecting MAYBE 50 if we're lucky, probably 60, but EIGHTY for the GH3 controllers? **** that. I REALLY hope the Strats are more are affordable. like $50/60. Also why dont ANY of these allow me to play GH1/2/80s on ps3!?

[TCrox]

This must be a PS3 only problem? I love my GH guitar, and use it on RB daily... No effects (boo-hoo), but plays nice. Much better strum, IMO.

[felix-the-cat]

Okay, I must be the only one who can see the obvious and doesn't have to try and pick things apart. ALOT of people are now anti-Activision and for what reason? Do any of you "let's boycot Activision and NOT enjoy any further GH games" people even notice that the GH guitars DO work on the PS2 and the 360? 2 of the 3 platforms the game is available on, the freakin guitars work!!

I have yet to see anyone questioning why Harmonix did not make sure the GH controllers worked with the game prior to release. Hmmmmm, maybe it's cause they KNEW they would not work and released the game anyway KNOWING once again that Activision and or Sony would not allow a patch after release. HMX releases a game knowing they could have made the GH controllers work VERY easily but why? That would not help bring down any GH sales, in fact it would increase those sales.

So, HMX intentionally releases the game with no GH support and then comes out with a miracle patch (prolly already down long before the game ever hit stores) with the full knowledge that the patch would not get used and some simple minded people would get angry at Activision and not buy GH games. Something obviously does not add up. There is NO POSSIBLE WAY this game went through the entire developement process without SOMEONE at HMX or MTV walking in with a GH controller and saying "I'm gonna use my GH controller today just to compare it to our Strats". There is no way these people are that stupid. The game was made not to support the GH controls on purpose, not by accident.

I do not blame any of the 3 sides. It's their business, run it how they want. All I know is that there are now 2 companies making great interactive music games that are fun to play and competition only makes better products for us the consumers. Without competition, developers do not have much incentive to go above and beyond their last release. Also, competition pushes each side to release the next game faster. I say it's a win all around. They get their money and we get more entertainment.

Rip on Activision if you want or rip on HMX or Sony, whatever makes you feel better, but saying you won't buy a game because of a patch is just utter stupidity. For every 1 person who stops buying GH or RB, there are at least 10 people behind you that are glad you passed it up so they could get it for the first time.

BTW, I WILL buy any and ALL GH and RB sequels that come out because even if I don't like every song on the game or I find things that could be better in the game, the games are still VERY enjoyable.

[Tiberiouslb]

Harmonix probably just shouldn't have released anything but bundles. I can't believe anyone bought the standalone game, with no stand alone instruments available. Consumers have to take some responsibility. For those who bought the full kit, they can still play just without a bass (and if you invite 3 friends over you should be able to get one with their own RB set).

As for the patch, Activision wants money. However, if you can play Guitar Hero 3 with a standard PS3 Sixaxis controller (which you can), it seems fishy that Harmonix tweaked the guitar controls for Rock Band enough that you can't use either the Guitar Hero 3 controller or the Sixaxis.

[KillAutumn]

Frederf wins.

If anyone truly thinks Harmonix's intention from the beginning was just to piss people off with their product, is looney tunes. Making these consipracy theories for your own justifications laced in ignorances is both ******ed and sad. Harmonix has said they'd update when there's something to update on, instead of posting "We're trying" over, and over again. If they haven't said anything, then that means the negotiation is deadlocked and Activision isn't budging. I boycotted them as well. I might not get to enjoy all the "fun ****s and giggles" Activision might send out, but I never really enjoyed their games anyway. Not to mention a personal attack against them on my part is just a small peice of what I hope to be a giant rocket launcher down their throat at one time or another. I'm fine with that. QQ more.

[eVan_Diesel]

This whole thing has gotten rather depressing...

[LoopyChew]

I also want to point out that HMX programmed the guitar controller interface for PS2 and 360 (with GH/2) but had nothing to do with the guitar interface for PS3 (GH3). In order to maintain backward compatibility for those platforms, Activision had to keep those interfaces working with GH3 so as to not raise complaints with owners of the previous games, but they started from scratch with the PS3.

Whether or not this actually has anything to do with the fact that HMX managed compatibility for PS2/360 and not PS3, I don't really know, and I could very well be talking out my behind. But it's a guess.

[HeadHunter67]

Frederf wins.
Actually, under Godwin's Law (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law), he loses because of this:


You're the kind of person that would buy ground up Jews from Hitler because "Hey it's wrong but it tastes good and my vote is tiny."

However, I will grant that he is on the right track with this:


If you want to be critical of HMX, do it this way: Use facts and reason.

1. HMX is being ridiculously tight-lipped about this and most other Rock Band issues. It doesn't really foster trust or a good feeling from them.

2. HMX's "open standard" isn't all that open (can you link me to the .pdf?)

3. HMX/EA didn't/didn't-announce any increase in guitar production. Yes the injection molding machines are a few million dollars a pop but if you start screwing over customers the right thing to do is spring for the increased production equipment, factories, whatever and suffer the suboptimal profits.

It really does make you wonder how sparkly clean they are in negotiations with Activision, Sony, etc.

That said, I'd like to address this point:

I'd rather live in a world where outrageous requests are met with a middle finger instead of a rubber spine than one where my 2nd guitar controller is functional 4 months earlier.
Like the "rubber spine" Sony showed by caving into Activision's demand not to release the patch?

HMX isn't making this choice for your benefit, you know. They're doing it because they make more money this way - that's how business decisions are made. Ethics and principles don't enter into it and when the quarterly reports come out, the shareholders don't care about them. All they want to know about is how much money the company made.

[MF-PO'd]

Harmonix probably just shouldn't have released anything but bundles. I can't believe anyone bought the standalone game, with no stand alone instruments available. Consumers have to take some responsibility. For those who bought the full kit, they can still play just without a bass (and if you invite 3 friends over you should be able to get one with their own RB set).

Well, as one of the few people that did purchase the standalone game, I'll speak to this. The research we could do and information we had at the time suggested that the GH3 controller would work with Rock Band and that Harmonix' individual instruments would be out in the late January timeframe. I admit I took some chance hoping that my GH3 controller would work or that I'd be able to purchase a RB guitar in January. In good faith I also trusted that Harmonix wouldn't leave me out to dry with a useless product for such a long period of time. So, yes, I'll accept some responsibility - not the bulk of it, but some. Harmonix should have had a working solution for me of some kind by January though.

[dfjdejulio]

I can relate to your cheap nature. However; your view of activision being the culprit here is a bit short sighted. Lets look at some of the obvious factors at work here. If a patch were released that would mean reduced stand alone guitar sales for both developers (should either ever actually release one) So its not in either companies best interest to release said patch. As far as whos to blame here, there are press releases from both developers blaming the other for stonewalling the patch. This is because they mutualy agree that releasing the patch would hurt stand alone guitar sales.

This ignores the fact that the problem only exists on the platform for which the fewest copies of Rock Band have been sold.

PS2 and XB360 have both sold more copies of Rock Band. On PS2 and XB360, GH guitars work flawlessly with Rock Band. If Harmonix was making this happen to drive up RB guitar sales... why would they only do it on the least popular RB platform? Doesn't add up.


And lets not forget Sonys role in all of this. The erason the guitars are cross compatible on the xbox is beacause microsoft demanded it. Now Sony could have done the same thing, but lacked the testicular fortitude. Sony COULD still demand the release of the patch, but again... So you see you really cant blame this ALL on activision.

Mostly true. The guitars are not completely cross-compatible on XB360 -- the GH games check to see if you're not using a GH-branded guitar, and if you're not, they refuse to work. But GH guitars work in RB. Basically, Harmonix wants it to work and Activision does not want it to work, and Microsoft prevents people from interfering.

You're right, you can't blame this all on Activision -- but IMO you can't really blame much (or any) of it on Harmonix. But spreading the blame between Activision and Sony does seem appropriate.

[oohwha]

So it looks to me like this thread is shifting more and more toward the fact that Harmonix will not sell nearly as many bundles if the GH3 patch is released.

Interesting.


I also noticed they closed my poll thread about the patch - granted it was the hundredth of its kind. Of course, it wasn't drawing a whole lot of attention... but it was closed anyway - to better maintain the "sanity" of the forums.

(Not sure exactly what that means??)


Anyway, I definitely do see the point that people are making here. If Harmonix let's that patch out, then people like me will buy RB off Ebay for 20 or 30 bucks and use my 2 GH3 guitars to play it. If I can't do that, then I'm sort of forced to buy the $149 bundle with 1 guitar in it.

Yeah, I can definitely see speculation toward this line of thought being perfectly valid.

Fortunately I'm a patient person and I can wait till the 3rd party guitars hit the market - even though it is a wee bit frustrating. Not like it's life altering or anything though LOL :)

I'm curious now though... now that this thread has taken the anti-HMX turn... will it be closed too? :(

Plus that whole Godwin's law thing - I can't believe it came to fruition in only the 3rd page of replies :P

[Micker]

I like the RB guitar much better then the GH3 Les Paul for my PS3 anyway, but it would be a nice option for a second guitar. Kinda crazy that they would bother stopping the patch, as it only effects the PS3 people. Why bother?? If anything, it would benefit Activision more.

[Dzhokhar]

I think the blame for this situation should be split between Sony and Activision.

Sony for allowing Activision to block the patch.

Activision for blocking it.

Harmonix is essentially caught in the middle. They want to release the patch but Sony and Activision won't let them unless they pay Activision off. The payout is probably more than the expected profit to be gained by selling more PS3 copies to people who don't want to deal with multiple sets of peripherals.

I would place the majority of the blame on Sony, because I don't think Activision has a legal right to block the patch. If they did have such a right they would be suing over XBox360 and PS2 compatibility.

Lastly, note that the presence of PS2 compatibility negates the argument that Microsoft requires compatibility. The reason that the PS2 and the 360 are compatible with GH controllers is that GH controllers already were available for those systems during the development of Rock Band while PS3 GH controllers didn't exist until RB was essentially complete. This allowed compatibility to be built in and therefore avoided this whole patch approval process that is preventing PS3 compatibility.

[Gryffindor]

I doubt we'll ever see a resolution to this problem for PS3 owners (myself included).

What bothers me more is that HMX is aware of several other issues with the game that they have not patched yet such as:

1. Mic/Drum fill latency. It used to be a sticky on the announcements page but has since disappeared.

2. "Wiggly Vocals". There have been several threads about the pitch indicator going crazy while doing vocals on any level. It's particularly horrible when you're on expert mode as you have less margin for error when it comes to pitch. I've yet to hear anyone from HMX even address this issue.

3. Continuing hardware failure issues. Even the new guitars and drums are continuing to fail.

4. The recent Police Pack patch does not seem to be working for PS3 users.

(I just remembered the other ones)

5. PS3 Voice Chat/Players Met. Is this ever going to happen????

I'm sure there's other problems that I'm forgetting for the moment but I'd like to see at least some progress on the known issues. The game has been out for over 3 months now. If they can't fix the problem then at least say that they can't. If they're working on the problems then at least acknowledge that they are.

[Xero314-2]

Actually, under Godwin's Law (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law), he loses because of this:


Goodwin's law does not state who wins or not, it just states a "fact" that as an internet thread grows longer the chances of someone mentioning Hitler approaches 0. This is actually a "fact" in all conversations.



HMX isn't making this choice for your benefit, you know. They're doing it because they make more money this way - that's how business decisions are made. Ethics and principles don't enter into it and when the quarterly reports come out, the shareholders don't care about them. All they want to know about is how much money the company made.

Harmonix is aware that doing what the customers want is how you become a successful company. But barring that, Ethics plays into MANY corporate decisions and share holders do care about ethics. Money is a big part of being a shareholder, but it's still only a part, and an even smaller part when you are talking about major share holders.

[greeble]

Yeah the lack of Voice Chat and GH3 controllers is a real kick in the nuts to ps3 owners. I still enjoy Rock Band, but I can see these issues detracting from it longevity.

[jeccaneko]

I don't know, just venting I guess. If anyone has any suggestions, I'm open to them. GH3 is getting a bit boring but as I look down the road at other potential singing and/or instrumental games coming out... I'm wondering if my house is going to end up looking like a MUSIC STORE should there not be a way to get some universal compatibility happening somehow :(

If you really like music games, there's no way around that even with guitar compatibility. Take me for instance...

2 PS2 guitars
1 360 Rock Band guitar
1 360 Rock Band drum kit
1 360 Rock Band mic
1 360 wired headset (used as an alternate mic sometimes)
2 Cobalt Flux PS2 dance platforms
2 Gamecube dance pads (for DDR Mario)
2 PS2 Taiko drums (for Taiko Drum Master)
some guitar pick stylii for DS (Jam Sessions)

Then there's all of the music games that don't require peripherals. I want to buy the 360 GH3 and some other music games. I've also got a lot of REAL instruments in the house.

Yeah, I know this topic is mostly fighting for the rights of the PS3 owners to have compatibility with the PS3 GH controllers on Rock Band, and I'm all for that. But I did want to point out that you won't get around your house looking like a music store if you get into music games even if PS3 owners get what they want. :)

[martinidave1121]

I really doubt that Harmonix is some money grubbing capitalist pig demon company that would rather rape the consumers feelings in an endless pit of fire for all of eternity than include a software patch enabling us to play both games with both guitars.

Actually I think that Harmonix is one of the best companies I have ever dealt with (customer service).

When you strip away the who-to-blame attitude and it all boils down to this...

A guitar controller is a guitar controller however you slice it. No controller should be game specific. That’s like needing an individual sixaxis controller to play Devil May Cry, instead of using the one you use to play Assassins Creed. It’s just a mess.

I don't see any kind of corporate conspiracy involving screwing the consumer, if you browse the message boards here or at scorehero you see that A LOT of people are exchanging there guitars because of some technical whatever’s.

I doubt that EA is just going to send them the same piece of crap that has the same potential problems that the first guitars had...

Therefore,

The stockpile of new guitars that have been set aside for the March 2nd Release have been depleted and we must allow them time to get enough together for the supply and demand.

Sorry folks.

[killer_roach]

Here's how I look at it... Harmonix makes a game with RedOctane that uses the GH controllers, RedOctane and Harmonix go their separate ways, and RO's new overlord thinks that HMX has no right to utilize technology that they were partly responsible for coming up with. While entitled to do so from a legal perspective, it seems incredibly petty (although, considering it IS Activision, sadly par for the course). I'd put the blame for it largely on RO and Activision, although Sony's rather loose controller standards allowed Activision to use their wireless Les Pauls as cudgels rather than their intended use.

Granted, I've never been an Activision fan (probably my least-favorite publisher, well below EA and even somewhat below Infogrames)... but they didn't have to go and effectively demonstrate why they are capable of generating such ill will.

[Frederf]

Actually, under Godwin's Law (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law), he loses because of this:


Goodwin's law does not state who wins or not, it just states a "fact" that as an internet thread grows longer the chances of someone mentioning Hitler approaches 0. This is actually a "fact" in all conversations.

Exactly. I am well aware of Godwin's Law and I was conscious of it when I typed my analogy. HeadHunter is laboring under the false impression (among many) that I said what I said because I'm incapable of expressing my point without dipping into the rather tainted bucket of Hitler analogies. HeadHunter loses for missing the point of Godwin's.


This ignores the fact that the problem only exists on the platform for which the fewest copies of Rock Band have been sold.

PS2 and XB360 have both sold more copies of Rock Band. On PS2 and XB360, GH guitars work flawlessly with Rock Band. If Harmonix was making this happen to drive up RB guitar sales... why would they only do it on the least popular RB platform? Doesn't add up.

The correlation between number of copies sold (really? PS2 beat PS3 sales?) and having this compatibility issues is largely ignored because it is irrelevant. It's coincidental.

I can see you're not suggesting that HMX is conspiring, in fact the opposite. The number of copies sold is coincidental to compatibility. Activision simply was able to in the case of the PS3.

Now I've made statements like HMX is a "good" "ethical" guy and not just a business which is not exactly fair. HMX is a business that seeks profits and will act in its own financial interest. However it is my opinion that HMX simply doesn't have underhanded actions occurring in their brain. A carpenter can skimp on nails and planks and people will buy the house the same, but it just doesn't cross his mind. His job is to build a house, he builds it, he sells it.

If you read the Penny Arcade article on this topic you'll find the part where it's stated "There's the way things should be" and heroes and villains are made in whether they oppose or support that. It is my opinion that HMX operates primarily on the idea that their job is to make software, these criteria make good software, and that's what they do.

[MF-PO'd]

Here's how I look at it... Harmonix makes a game with RedOctane that uses the GH controllers, RedOctane and Harmonix go their separate ways, and RO's new overlord thinks that HMX has no right to utilize technology that they were partly responsible for coming up with. While entitled to do so from a legal perspective, it seems incredibly petty (although, considering it IS Activision, sadly par for the course). I'd put the blame for it largely on RO and Activision, although Sony's rather loose controller standards allowed Activision to use their wireless Les Pauls as cudgels rather than their intended use.

Granted, I've never been an Activision fan (probably my least-favorite publisher, well below EA and even somewhat below Infogrames)... but they didn't have to go and effectively demonstrate why they are capable of generating such ill will.

Actually, I tend to believe Red Octane is not the problem and it's all Activision pulling the strings in this mess. When this problem first arose, people that e-mailed Red Octane (including myself) were given a reply that apologized for the inconvenience, said it wasn't something they planned for, and were looking resolve the issue. A couple of people on this board who made phone calls to EA and got high enough up the chain were told that Red Octane were in the process of providing the codes to Harmonix, so they could make the guitar work. Not too long after that, the patch was announced. As we know, Activision then stuck their foot down and stopped everything. At this time, I tried contacting Red Octane again myself and quoted their original response. Their tune had changed. After exchanging several e-mails, they were almost pushing me towards Activision. In not so many words, they basically said 'take the issue up with Activision'. It's my opinion that RO was cooperative, Activision found out and didn't like it, and then put a stop to things.

Of course, I could be off base, but having followed this catastrophe since the beginning, the puzzle seems to fit together.

[MF-PO'd]

All right Harmonix, we found your stash:

http://www.gamespot.com/news/show_blog_entry.php?topic_id=26269490&sid=6187094&tag=latestnews;title;3

Dip into the vault and get this patch situation worked out for us. ;)

[dfjdejulio]

The correlation between number of copies sold (really? PS2 beat PS3 sales?) and having this compatibility issues is largely ignored because it is irrelevant. It's coincidental.

I can see you're not suggesting that HMX is conspiring, in fact the opposite. The number of copies sold is coincidental to compatibility. Activision simply was able to in the case of the PS3.

That's exactly why correlation with number of copies sold is relevant. Harmonix could have prevented it from working on all three platforms. The only platform it's not working on is the one that Activision was able to block it on due to the vendor's help.

If Harmonix didn't want it to work, it wouldn't work anywhere -- Harmonix deciding that it shouldn't work in order to drive up hardware sales on the least-successful (economically) platform just doesn't make sense.

[Apples]

All right Harmonix, we found your stash:

http://www.gamespot.com/news/show_blog_entry.php?topic_id=26269490&sid=6187094&tag=latestnews;title;3

Dip into the vault and get this patch situation worked out for us. ;)

To clarify: The purported funds are for former owners and shareholders... not operational cash to spend on company endeavors. In some cases the stakeholders may not be working for, or associated with the company. It could be private investors, private equity firms, VC funding, etc.

As an example, it would be like me asking a Ford stockholder to pay for the fix on my car.... its not the stockholders' responsibilty.

[felix-the-cat]

[QUOTE=Frederf;364214]Man there's a lot of ignorant people in this thread, felix-the-cat being the one I'm going to single out in a moment.

We're anti-Activision because Activision is doing this ****ty thing with compatibility.

Frederf:
Sorry, I did not make it clear. I am NOT saying this is how I think it is happening in my own mind. I was asking why everyone seemed to be pointing only at Activision and with all the different crazy ideas about what and or why Activision does what they do, why is it that no one has thought of the possibility of Harmonix being at fault too.

Most of my post was just a "why hasn't anyone asked this..".

The part of my post that begins with "I don't blame" is where MY opinion starts.

BTW, wasn't there a lawsuit regarding replacement GH guitars LONG before Activision had ever even touched the GH game? I seem to remember and issue between Harmonix and Red Octain or some former Red Octain employees or something. I don't remember the details, but there was a controller issue LONG before any Activision involvement. THAT is why it just suprised me that no one is questioning Harmonix.

Again, I am happy with both GH and RB games myself.

[felix-the-cat]

p.s. no hard feelings. I re-read my own post and can see how you took it that way. So I do understand your reply.

[MHWREAPER]

My own opinion of this situation is that Activision probably realized that GH3 guitars would be the ONLY way to play the stand alone ( game only ) version of Rock Band ( Not including drums or mic of course ) for some time and blocked the patch because of this. Think about all of the bad press this has caused HMX, granted, those of us that do alot of online searching and whatnot know what's up, but if I'd bought the game only, then figured out it was unusable for a couple of months, I'd have been seriously ticked at HMX. I might have gone online and searched and found out the truth of the situation, but I might also have just returned the game said screw it and bought GH3 instead.

Once the Strats come out I think Activision will lighten up, or at least want to steal a few sales from HMX, so they might allow the patch to go ahead.

I'm certainly no expert on any of this but that's my opinion.

[Frederf]

That's exactly why correlation with number of copies sold is relevant. Harmonix could have prevented it from working on all three platforms. The only platform it's not working on is the one that Activision was able to block it on due to the vendor's help.

If Harmonix didn't want it to work, it wouldn't work anywhere -- Harmonix deciding that it shouldn't work in order to drive up hardware sales on the least-successful (economically) platform just doesn't make sense.

I think we're both saying the same thing but using the word "relevant" differently. To eliminate confusion I won't use that word. The reason it doesn't work on PS3 is strictly to do with Activision's efforts. Harmonix had "nothing" to do with the PS3 thing. They acted to the best of their abilities and were defeated by forces beyond their control. I wouldn't say that a HMX conspiracy is unthinkable PS3-only (what better disguise?) but there's no reason to think that HMX was behind such a thing.


Sorry, I did not make it clear. I am NOT saying this is how I think it is happening in my own mind. I was asking why everyone seemed to be pointing only at Activision and with all the different crazy ideas about what and or why Activision does what they do, why is it that no one has thought of the possibility of Harmonix being at fault too.

Most of my post was just a "why hasn't anyone asked this..".

The part of my post that begins with "I don't blame" is where MY opinion starts.

BTW, wasn't there a lawsuit regarding replacement GH guitars LONG before Activision had ever even touched the GH game? I seem to remember and issue between Harmonix and Red Octain or some former Red Octain employees or something. I don't remember the details, but there was a controller issue LONG before any Activision involvement. THAT is why it just suprised me that no one is questioning Harmonix.

Again, I am happy with both GH and RB games myself.

It should be pretty obvious why everyone is placing the lion's share of blame on Activision. They are the source of motivation for the blocking of compatibility. Activision is the aggressor. Harmonix is physically incapable of defending itself. And Sony is being completely passive/intimidated.

There's nothing really illegal or legal going on here. It's a business agreement. Sony is not legally compelled to allow Harmonix to patch their own software through PSN, even though such a patch would be well within HMX's legal right to apply.

[HeadHunter67]

Goodwin's law does not state who wins or not, it just states a "fact" that as an internet thread grows longer the chances of someone mentioning Hitler approaches 0. This is actually a "fact" in all conversations.

If you actually clicked on the link, you'd see its relevance to the discussion:


By 2007, The Economist had declared that "a good rule in most discussions is that the first person to call the other a Nazi automatically loses the argument."
That's the generally accepted usage on forums. Regardless, when one has to resort to such a weaksauce analogy, they're a loser any way you slice it. Tasteless, irrelevant and unimaginative. Try again.

[Xero314-2]

If you actually clicked on the link, you'd see its relevance to the discussion:


By 2007, The Economist had declared that "a good rule in most discussions is that the first person to call the other a Nazi automatically loses the argument."

That's the generally accepted usage on forums. Regardless, when one has to resort to such a weaksauce analogy, they're a loser any way you slice it. Tasteless, irrelevant and unimaginative. Try again.

I guess calling on irrelevant usenet memes is easier than actually trying to dispute the analogy. Remember sometimes invoking references to Hitler (http://xkcd.com/261/) is actually quite valid.

Now if you want to actually argue against boycott or ethical consumerism as a way for the consumers to maintain control over that which they consume, then we can continue to argue. But if you honestly think that boycotts do not work I suggest you look up the history of the word.

[HeadHunter67]

I guess calling on irrelevant usenet memes is easier than actually trying to dispute the analogy. Remember sometimes invoking references to Hitler (http://xkcd.com/261/) is actually quite valid.
There's a reason it's accepted as such - because the comparison is what's irrelevant, not to mention inappropriate, offensive and ridiculous.

If it was material to the discussion, he could have come up wth a more informative and tasteful analogy. If he can't, he's not someone with whom reasoned and mature discourse is productive, or even possible, so I don't bother.

[Apples]

Okay, this thread has massively set the forum record for user reports of bad behavior.

While this is obviously a hot-button topic, there is logically going to be no consensus, answer, or solution... pending any official statement to the contrary.

Profanity, slurs, and personal attacks are not going to produce substantive results. In addition, there is publicly no new or developing information on this subject to merit further discussion.


Kind Regards.