What does this have to do with Beethoven or his supposed c***?

[integral_taken]

In the end they all will say
Breaking someone elses heart again,

Find the little evil perpetrator
And feed her to the hungry alligator
You want it all,
You want it all,
Love is not about the profits
Nor the riches in your dreams,

The arms of time are breaking off,
Civilization is on trial,
The clocks eliminating time
Do you believe, in me

But lately Ive been blind
You leave me all alone, left in time,
You left me here to die, left in time,
Leave me all alone, left in time,

The arms of time are breaking off,
Civilization is on trial,
The clocks eliminating time
Do you believe in nothing.

But lately Ive been blind
Leave me all alone, left in time.
------

Maybe he's referring to Beethoven's time when civilization was civil and more humane than it is now, but then why the c***? For shock value? Is he no more of the little evil perpetrator than everyone else?

I liked SOAD, but i'm not very impressed with Serj's solo stuff.

[Apples]

Yeah, wasn't Beethoven a guy... I don't get it.

[HeadHunter67]

The lyrics are about as stupid as "Welcome Home"!

At least Beethoven's music didn't suck.

[Cutlass]

I really like Empty Walls. That song is sweet.

[wells14]

The lyrics are about as stupid as "Welcome Home"!

At least Beethoven's music didn't suck.
Welcome Home's lyrics ahave a meaning though.

[HeadHunter67]

That's a debate for a different thread. :)

[Riastlin]

Personally, I think he likely realized that his stuff wasn't good enough to be successful on its own merits. But if you give it a name like Beethoven's C*** then people will check it out and listen to it as a sort of "Stick it to the Man" thing.

Its sorta like those stand up comics who have to swear in every single joke. Most of the time their stuff isn't funny enough in its own right so they throw in a few F-Bombs in the hope that people will laugh. I'm not suggesting that swearing automatically makes a song or joke bad, just that a lot of people IMHO use it as a crutch.

[A-Rock]

It's about that movie with that big dog. I heard Serj say in a interview that he really loved that movie. :D

[Chthonic]

It's just a stupid song name.

That being said, it's pretty stupid.

[Coreymyster]

The lyrics are about as stupid as "Welcome Home"!

At least Beethoven's music didn't suck.

the lyrics to welcome home aren't bad at all. They are telling a story. Having a song tell a piece of a story is quite a hard thing to do.

[Maggot_Brain]

Oh hey, that guy is "enigmatic." In the good old days, it meant you were stoned.

[xfactorstl]

The lyrics are about as stupid as "Welcome Home"!

At least Beethoven's music didn't suck.



How are the lyrics to WELCOME HOME stupid. It is an awesome story.

[TheHip41]

c*** is another word that you can call a woman that you really, really, really hate, and only in private.


so, the song could be about some girl that really crushed beethoven, therefore, that girl would be Beethoven's ****

just a thought.

[BloodClot]

Yeah, wasn't Beethoven a guy... I don't get it.

At first I was thinking that word rhymed with hunt, but my 9th grade daughter set me right and said it rhymed with shock.

No comments about how she knew that, she is in 9th grade and hears those words way more then I do in the workplace.

[jonzes]

google it, it rhymes with hunt.

As for why? It's a dumb song with a dumb name to get kids to buy the CD.

And as for a song telling a story being hard? It has been done since man first started singing and a million times since.

[Destnaru]

Beethoven doesn't necessarily have a direct reference to Ludwig van Beethoven , it is a surname.
But they probably just called it that for no obvious reason because they were high on something at the time.
I do like the song though.

[Parodygm]

Can a Coheed fan actually explain to me the meaning of "you seem to take premise to all of these songs"?

[HeadHunter67]

Having a song tell a piece of a story is quite a hard thing to do.
Not in the least - ever heard of rock opera? Every song in "Tommy" tells a piece of a story. Likewise with concept albums like Operation: Mindcrime.


How are the lyrics to WELCOME HOME stupid. It is an awesome story.
Again, that's a topic for a different thread. For here, suffice to say that lyrics should fit the melody instead of being shoehorned into it, and that they should attempt to convey some sense of... well, sense.

Yes writes nonsense lyrics in many of their songs, but they don't pretend to convey a story with them.

You're free to have a different opinion, but it's not going to make me like this song or that one either. We used to call these sorts of people "poseurs".

[integral_taken]

At first I was thinking that word rhymed with hunt, but my 9th grade daughter set me right and said it rhymed with shock.

No comments about how she knew that, she is in 9th grade and hears those words way more then I do in the workplace.

No, it is the "rhymes with hunt" word, so says the unedited album.

[BloodClot]

google it, it rhymes with hunt.

As for why? It's a dumb song with a dumb name to get kids to buy the CD.

And as for a song telling a story being hard? It has been done since man first started singing and a million times since.

Cool, I learn something new everyday, even at my age. :p

I went on Rhapsody and played the whole song just to make sure it was safe to buy. I don't mind having foul language, but I have kids, so I don't think it would be great to have my 6 year old singing something like that. My wife already has issues with her singing "Nature is a whore"... although she doesn't exactly pronounce it right.:o

[Destnaru]

It really doesn't take too much imagination to figure out what C*** means without having to look it up considering it was censored.

[FinalWarri0r]

It really doesn't take too much imagination to figure out what C*** means without having to look it up considering it was censored.

Well it could either be C*** or C***...so yeah...>.>

[CyN1caL]

The title, Beethovens C*** alludes to a composer's (not neccesarily Beethoven himself, or even Serj himself) former lover/girl.

The lyrics are pretty self-explanatory after that.

[BloodClot]

It really doesn't take too much imagination to figure out what C*** means without having to look it up considering it was censored.

Considering the composer Beethoven was a male, I went with male translation.

Regarding the "looking it up", I am actually typing this from work. While I don't hesitate typing in the forums, I wouldn't want to actually start googling around for said words.

[wedge78]

A lot of song titles have nothing to do with the subject matter to lyrics.

Not only that, lyrics don't always have to be literal or make perfect sense. Whenever Kurt Cobain would write a few sincere lines and then put in some nonsense just so it wasn't so obvious. Not everyone likes "smile empty soul" lyrics that are so ridiculously lame and obvious.

[OldClownie]

Meh, not as good as "Tchaikovsky's Tw*t" . . . imo.

[Daytman]

Can a Coheed fan actually explain to me the meaning of "you seem to take premise to all of these songs"?
Dunno if someone has answered this, but...

You seem to be the subject of all these songs I write.

[BloodClot]

Meh, not as good as "Tchaikovsky's Tw*t" . . . imo.

You beat me to it... I was about to post Pachelbel's P***y, but I like yours better.

[OldClownie]

You beat me to it... I was about to post Pachelbel's P***y, but I like yours better.

Ha! I like that one. I has a nice ring to it. Have you ever considered collaborating with Serj Tankian?

[hmxhenry]

Meh, not as good as "Tchaikovsky's Tw*t" . . . imo.

I'm glad to see that this song has generation some intelligent discussion.

Lyrical interpretation, a discussion of the song's meaning or relevance of the title, and the artist's intent are all things worth talking about. Not just with this song, but with any song.

This thread has been pretty good so far, and has probably been the most mature discussion about this song on the forums yet. Let's try to keep things as mature as possible, and keep the crass comments to a minimum. That's the kind of thing that will really get you into hot water. A certain level of snickering is almost understandable (dirty word *teeheehee*), but as long as we can balance that out with some of the same respect and thought we'd give towards other tracks in the game then I think we'll all get along just fine.

[BloodClot]

Heh... an HMXer peeked his head in to check on us. I can't blame them really.

I agree, this topic could have got out of hand really quickly, but it has stayed pretty mature for the most part.

I have to admit though, although I am a young 38 (almost 39), I don't think I will ever outgrow the Beavis and Butthead snickering stage.

[simmias]

Ha! I like that one. I has a nice ring to it. Have you ever considered collaborating with Serj Tankian?
You, sir, need to post more. Two gems in this thread already, despite what people in high places may think.

[holyground]

Once again, I reiterate my admiration for the chance HMX has taken with this song. It would have been, imo, much easier to not put this song in at all. The fact that they did so makes me enjoy the deliberateness with which DLC is chosen.

good job.

/holy.

[OldClownie]

I'm glad to see that this song has generation some intelligent discussion.

Lyrical interpretation, a discussion of the song's meaning or relevance of the title, and the artist's intent are all things worth talking about. Not just with this song, but with any song.

This thread has been pretty good so far, and has probably been the most mature discussion about this song on the forums yet. Let's try to keep things as mature as possible, and keep the crass comments to a minimum. That's the kind of thing that will really get you into hot water. A certain level of snickering is almost understandable (dirty word *teeheehee*), but as long as we can balance that out with some of the same respect and thought we'd give towards other tracks in the game then I think we'll all get along just fine.

The only people getting their "teeheehees" out this week are those that work at HMX. I would have hoped that the excitement of being lewd just because you can would have worn off during the charting of this song. It's a decent song. . . not his hit. . . has a piano part. Not really the ideal Rock Band cut. I can only imagine then that HMX's motivation was to see if they could get families across the world to invite the c-word into their home. "Teehee," you did!

Oh, and how can I forget the song by the little kids that's full of f-bombs. Another classy move there HMX. Both of these songs are very important pieces of art. I'm sure they will be played and enjoyed for years to come. Either that, or they're just some disposable rock being used as a commercial for the SXSW event.

[Sarge51]

I liked Empty Walls, though.

[72tomahawk72]

The only people getting their "teeheehees" out this week are those that work at HMX. I would have hoped that the excitement of being lewd just cause you can would have worn off during the charting of this song. It's a decent song. . . not his hit. . . has a piano part. Not really the ideal Rock Band cut. I can only imagine then that HMX's motivation was to see it they could get families across the world to invite the c-word into their home. "Teehee," you did!

Oh, and how can I forget the song by the little kids that's full of f-bombs. Another classy move there HMX. Both of these songs are very important pieces of art. I'm sure they will be played and enjoyed for years to come. Either that, or they're just some disposable rock being used as a commercial for the SXSW event.

What song is this? I don't remember singing that...I need to download this ASAP!

[HuckleCat]

I recently had the misfortune of seeing Serj Tankian open up for the Foo Figthers in Philadelphia, and man, they were horrible.

The music was crap, most of the stadium was seated and just waited for them to leave. To make matters worse, he led into each song with a joke where the punchline was the name of the song. None of them were funny or had anything to do with the song.

He also liked the movie Borat way too much.


Serj Tankian = The suck.

[simmias]

What song is this? I don't remember singing that...I need to download this ASAP!
That would be the Black Tide song.

[knifes39]

i kinda noticed that this thread went from what is that song about to serj tankian sucks. i think we might all wanna just drop this thread cause its just gonna start a flame war. As for the song alot of his songs are more about the meaning than the title. if im reading the lyrics right ,not just the only few lines posted here, then i think the song is about the evils of our civilization but thats just me :rolleyes:

[Riastlin]

At the risk of going a tad off topic, does anyone know if Shockwave was edited? I know other songs have either been edited or used the radio version so I was just curious on Shockwave since about 1 in 4 words appears to be an F Bomb.

Doesn't really matter to me since a) I have no kids and b) I don't plan on getting this anyway. I was just curious.

[jonzes]

writers privilege I guess.. they only need to know what it means.. rock isn't about lyrics anyway. 70% how you sound 20% how you look 10% what you say

Tell Bob Dylan

[PCTraitor]

horrible song. Not worth 99 cents.

[WhiffleBallTony]

At the risk of going a tad off topic, does anyone know if Shockwave was edited? I know other songs have either been edited or used the radio version so I was just curious on Shockwave since about 1 in 4 words appears to be an F Bomb.

Doesn't really matter to me since a) I have no kids and b) I don't plan on getting this anyway. I was just curious.
Yeah, it was. The part where he goes, "I'm a shockwave, baby, I'll take your ****ing life," is edited. There's no replacement, just a simple empty space.

[Billtvshow]

I figured it was because the background music seems to be borrowed from or interpreted from a Beethoven piece.

[Nextonex]

I remember reading somewhere that **** has a different meaning in other countries and it's not considered vulgar, but I can't seem to find where I read that or what it's definition is. **** also refeers to "Womb" and I guess Beethovens womb could be a place where his music was created.

In the video, there seems to be some reference to time and the alligator, Could it be some sort of Peter Pan or Dr. Hook reference?

[Nextonex]

Yeah, it was. The part where he goes, "I'm a shockwave, baby, I'll take your ****ing life," is edited. There's no replacement, just a simple empty space.

If they are going to censor a song, I would prefer the blank space over a beep, at least you can sing it if you want to.

[BloodClot]

If they are going to censor a song, I would prefer the blank space over a beep, at least you can sing it if you want to.

I've noticed on radio edits that they can sometimes get really creative and play only the vocals of that word (or even a whole line) backwards while the music still plays normal.

[Contrapulator]

I thought it was a play on Beethoven's scheme of naming his pieces after the key he composed in. Beethoven's Symphony in C, shortened to Beethoven's C, lampooned as Beethoven's C***. But I guess that meaning is lost without the censorship.

[HeadHunter67]

The only people getting their "teeheehees" out this week are those that work at HMX. I would have hoped that the excitement of being lewd just because you can would have worn off during the charting of this song.
Oh, and how can I forget the song by the little kids that's full of f-bombs. Another classy move there HMX.
I agree - I don't at all object to profanity, but when it's used pruriently as it is in the title of the song, I can't abide it.

If Serj couldn't find a better way to express the concept in the title, that would indicate to me a fundamental flaw in his lyrical ability.

Considering that they found AFAIK the one NIN song that doesn't have the f-bomb in it at all, i think they could have more carefully chosen their selection of songs.

I haven't heard "Shockwave" yet but if it's feck-laden then "shock" is a good word for it.

In short, profanity is fine, unless it's gratuitous.


rock isn't about lyrics anyway. 70% how you sound 20% how you look 10% what you say

+1 Win for the Eddie Izzard reference. :cool:

[DreAdAwaKeNinG]

Really random. But to the person who insulted Smile Empty Soul on page three. I hope you get hit by a train. Thanks.

[HeadHunter67]

If he does, it would still sound better than Serj's singing.

[DreAdAwaKeNinG]

Haha. While I like Serj a lot, that did make me laugh. :)

[bandaddy]

Or....is it in reference to the March, 1791 issue of Playboy, where Beethoven was shown in his full glory, revealing he did indeed have a c***, thus disrupting the balance of civility?

Wow....deep, huh.

[tobiasdennis]

It's just that Serj guy trying to be witty, which is impossible.

[TheKrazyKatzzz]

The problem with Beethoven's C*** being a reference to a female girlfriend/lover is that the title is in the possessive, which is arguably just as offensive (if not more so) as the censored vulgarity. It implies that Beethoven "owns" the C*** which is something not a lot of people that want to be respected do anymore. Instead of going for that interpretation, most people will think the title refers to something that Beethoven actually had the right to claim ownership over, like a song etc.

When compared to the video:
<object width="425" height="355"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/9FPm1aDLmWA"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/9FPm1aDLmWA" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="355"></embed></object>
which I *think* is an official video, most of these interpretations seem much weirder.

The video represents the following images:

a) a literal alligator
b) the male (composer? beethoven?) character in drag
c) a second female character that the video implies might actually be the male character
d) the female character taking a clock out of the gut of the beethoven character
e) the beethoven male and the female character spinning around clocks

Based on this, I think we're supposed to read with an attention to a) misogynist/sexual puns/misappropriations and b) musical metaphors.

The lyrics:

"In the end they all will say
Breaking someone elses heart again,"

I think the "they" here is a vacuous referent to "society" or something. Who is the "someone else's heart" though? It's not just "someones" (which already distances the subject from the object) but someone else's.

"Find the little evil perpetrator
And feed her to the hungry alligator
You want it all,
You want it all,
Love is not about the profits
Nor the riches in your dreams,"

In the video, the hungry alligator winks before attacking the woman while juxtaposed with images of the beethoven character eating the alligator. So, I think that for this section, the "you" the song addresses is the equivalent of the male character in the video; it's commanding the (misogynist/sexually repressed) beethoven character to feed the iconic female body to the "alligator". Notice that "the little evil perpetrator" is a "her". The last two lines of this segment are too facile for me to engage in.

"The arms of time are breaking off,
Civilization is on trial,
The clocks eliminating time
Do you believe, in me"

Is "civilization" Beethoven? Is "civilization" the bourgeoise house constructed in the video? Who is doing the trying? Another line that is a little too vacuous to read.

However, "The arms of time are breaking off" and "The clocks eliminating time" both seem like they could be a metaphor for musical "time." In the video, the male and the female move around the clock in unison with the "time" of the song. The entire video is sorta edited so that the images move in synch with the "time." If so, this might make the "Civilization" line a little bit less vacuous--the "civilization" that is being referred to is actually the "time" of music that forces an artificial synchronicity in the actors. Who is the prosecution to the trial then? Serj himself, of course. And the jurors and judge is the audience.

We also get the problematic "Me" figure in the last line that we can't really say anything else about yet.

"But lately Ive been blind
You leave me all alone, left in time,
You left me here to die, left in time,
Leave me all alone, left in time,"

This is the last meaningful stanza in the lyrics. Going off the "You" figure being the Beethoven figure / sexually repressed male then it would make sense of the "me" to not be Serj but instead be either (or both) the iconic female body or the repressed female psyche.

Returning to the title, what is this song about? If we take the video as being more than just a nonsensical mishmash of hyperbolic images, then we might say it is about a male subject and his repression of his own female psyche.

The singer, then, during the course of playing Rock Band, takes on Serj's position as singer, identifying him/herself with the repressed psyche seeking unification.

With the video I can at least try to argue that this song is interesting. Without the video the song is indeed quite facile. Take that for what you will.

TKKKz

edit: if I have time I might go through and do a complete reading of the video, which I personally think is a much more interesting subject for discussion than the song itself.

[BloodClot]

Your analysis of the song and imagery is an interesting read. I wish I could really appreciate it though as I honestly believe that you are better edumacated then I (having a High School level education from a public school no less).

I personally have accepted the fact that he is weird, the video is odd, and I probably will never understand what message he was trying to convey to the listening audience.

[Chief Stubbs]

His songs are usually political in nature. I wouldn't be suprised if this song was against the Iraq War.

[Toxor_Axiom]

Dumb title, great song. 'Nuff said. :cool:

[HeadHunter67]

His songs are usually political in nature. I wouldn't be suprised if this song was against the Iraq War.

From a man who is Armenian, a country where genocide (they call it "ethnic cleansing") still takes place, he's not one to judge the policies of the land in which his family sought shelter.

I'm sure he could move to his New Zealand home and live there full-time, as they seem to share his views. But then he would fade into musical obscurity - so it would seem that he's willing to sell his principles by staying here.

[Chief Stubbs]

From a man who is Armenian, a country where genocide (they call it "ethnic cleansing") still takes place, he's not one to judge the policies of the land in which his family sought shelter.

I'm sure he could move to his New Zealand home and live there full-time, as they seem to share his views. But then he would fade into musical obscurity - so it would seem that he's willing to sell his principles by staying here.
He was actually born in Lebanon, despite being Armenian. Not that that really matters.
I, personally, like his music, but hate his views. Kinda like RATM and the like. So I would be sad if he faded into musical obscurity.

[TheKrazyKatzzz]

America is a nation of immigrants. The beauty of America is that even those who have only been here a short time still are offered the priviledge of critiquing its policies.

That being said, Serj totally looks like a pedophile in the video for Empty Walls (a song/video that actually *is* about the war in Iraq).

<object width="425" height="355"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/BZSKvSz1roQ"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/BZSKvSz1roQ" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="355"></embed></object>

[SmellMyFinger]

or he is just trying to be heard...

[HeadHunter67]

He was actually born in Lebanon, despite being Armenian. Not that that really matters.
Yeah, Beirut isn't exactly a haven for peace either. ;)


America is a nation of immigrants. The beauty of America is that even those who have only been here a short time still are offered the priviledge of critiquing its policies.
My point is that he is far better off in the USA than he would be in Beirut or Armenia.

The saddest thing I can say about living in America is that we extend the same privileges to guests as we grant to citizens. But that's just my opinion.

[DoctorAwkward]

Like Beethoven, it was deaf.