A Flame Free but Volatile Discussion...

[gh2masterwellalmost]

Ok, my politics is vastly different to many of you. But something that amazed me was by a guy called Karl Marx. No, this isn't a communist thing. 200 years ago or so he was making successful predictions. As I'm not quite the "poor proletarian" just yet, I just wondered if any of you were amazed by this.

He basically made a load of predictions of the three stages of capitalism. Lets look at the one which is supposed to lead onto communism... (well supposedly, but his predictions were true so far, because I still don't think the USSR or China were fair depictions of what Marx said)

-------------------------------------------------------
the globalisation of financial capital, commercial capital and production capital;

neo-colonialism involving unequal exchange and humanitarian imperialism where armed intervention in foreign countries is morally justified by reference to humane concerns; (iraq in a sentence)

accelerated turnover of capital and the pressure to engage in comprehensive economic planning of investments;

permanent currency inflation and growing debt levels;

intensified monopolistic and oligopolistic competition for superprofit in world markets;

---------------------------------------------------- (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contemporary_capitalism)

It might now impress you I don't know, but I just feel that this man is an undervalued genius, whether you agree with his (and I mean his politics, he did invent it) politics.

Opinions?

[wwaballafoshosho]

i dont get it............

[gh2masterwellalmost]

i dont get it............

For me to get this at 14 it took a fair few years of self-teaching politics, so I'm not surprised a politically-unfamiliar 15 year old doesn't get it. Go play with your punk friends, I'll be over there to shout anarchist stuff in a minute :P

Honestly, please someone who gets this respond. I really thought some of the people I lovingly referred to as OAPs would love this thread.

[wwaballafoshosho]

For me to get this at 14 it took a fair few years of self-teaching politics, so I'm not surprised a politically-unfamiliar 15 year old doesn't get it. Go play with your punk friends, I'll be over there to shout anarchist stuff in a minute :P

Honestly, please someone who gets this respond. I really thought some of the people I lovingly referred to as OAPs would love this thread.

are you kidding me???
just cause i dont follow politics when im 15 means i have punk friends and im anarchist
ok you must have a fulfilling life
i like to live and not worry about politics
but everyones different
i respect that
and i hope your OAPs have a jolly old time talkin about this with you

[gh2masterwellalmost]

are you kidding me???
just cause i dont follow politics when im 15 means i have punk friends and im anarchist
ok you must have a fulfilling life
i like to live and not worry about politics
but everyones different
i respect that
and i hope your OAPs have a jolly old time talkin about this with you

No, my generalisation was also self-deprictory (spell check to aisle 3). I'm also an anarchist.

Yh, at 14 I'm young to learn it, but I'm a greedy capitalist - £59,000 a year plus no travel expenses for an MP, BARGAIN! :P

Politics will change your life more than love, your family and anything else in your life. It will dictate how much you earn, how much you lose, what you pay for in shops, everything.

[Eastwood]

Marx's theories are good theories... unfortunately, when you add human nature to the equation, then you get dictatorships, which all communist govts. have become. It is true, that in a pure communist society, govt. eventually fades to nothing and everything is self governed, but the lust for power lurks in every human soul. Therefore, in order for communism to suceed, you need a truly pure leader, which does not exist.

[gh2masterwellalmost]

Marx's theories are good theories... unfortunately, when you add human nature to the equation, then you get dictatorships, which all communist govts. have become. It is true, that in a pure communist society, govt. eventually fades to nothing and everything is self governed, but the lust for power lurks in every human soul. Therefore, in order for communism to suceed, you need a truly pure leader, which does not exist.

I disagree. I think that Russian and China were disgraces to communism. Total control of the people is not required. and the economy is not the people IMHO.

[dark_maiden]

hey, way to be oblivious to the world around you! good job. I unlike you like to keep an eye on whos running my country, you know, just to make sure that he's not a power driven tyrant with complete control (didn't do a very good job *cough* Bush).

Anyways, Karl Marx's predictions are a little unnerving. Hopefully he'll be wrong about this one, although he does have a good track record.

that was aimed at wwa... btw

[Eastwood]

I disagree. I think that Russian and China were disgraces to communism. Total control of the people is not required. and the economy is not the people IMHO.

I'm not saying that Russia and China followed the exact blueprint for communism. I was trying to say that human nature keeps us from following that blueprint.

Human nature is what keeps me out of politics. I have written papers on both communism and capitalism. I know the pitfalls of both. Communism has the best ending with a low chance of success while Capitialism has the best chance for success with a so so ending. Lesser of two evils for me... Just like Bush or Kerry... They were both ******ed...

*This statement is purely the opinion of Eastwood and in no way a statement of fact

[gh2masterwellalmost]

hey, way to be oblivious to the world around you! good job. I unlike you like to keep an eye on whos running my country, you know, just to make sure that he's not a power driven tyrant with complete control (didn't do a very good job *cough* Bush).

Anyways, Karl Marx's predictions are a little unnerving. Hopefully he'll be wrong about this one, although he does have a good track record.

that was aimed at wwa... btw

Oh thanks for the bottom mention. I was going to break the "no flaming" rule haha on "i keep an eye on who's running my country", I thought that was a glancing hit at communist dictatorship haha

Generally I say Dictatorship is corrupt. Democracy is corrupt, but less so that dictatorship. But in democracy, the media is the dictatorship.

Thats where my anarchist beliefs came in. If they're corrupt, then what about no government? Then my common sense came in and said - not gonna work.

[wwaballafoshosho]

hey, way to be oblivious to the world around you! good job. I unlike you like to keep an eye on whos running my country, you know, just to make sure that he's not a power driven tyrant with complete control (didn't do a very good job *cough* Bush).

Anyways, Karl Marx's predictions are a little unnerving. Hopefully he'll be wrong about this one, although he does have a good track record.

that was aimed at wwa... btw

im 15......
the world around me is school, homework, friends, family
im sorry

[gh2masterwellalmost]

I'm not saying that Russia and China followed the exact blueprint for communism. I was trying to say that human nature keeps us from following that blueprint.

Human nature is what keeps me out of politics. I have written papers on both communism and capitalism. I know the pitfalls of both. Communism has the best ending with a low chance of success while Capitialism has the best chance for success with a so so ending. Lesser of two evils for me... Just like Bush or Kerry... They were both ******ed...

*This statement is purely the opinion of Eastwood and in no way a statement of fact

I think capitalism is hard to see from our perspectives. We're sitting here, on our £500 and up computers, typing to people on the otherside of the world. But, in Africa, people don't even have elecricity.

Capitalism helps the minority and hurts the majority. But, if you fiddle with the formula, then the balance can be tipped without going towards communism (democratic socialism, for example, is the fairest system I think of that capitalists would agree with)

[Eastwood]

I think capitalism is hard to see from our perspectives. We're sitting here, on our £500 and up computers, typing to people on the otherside of the world. But, in Africa, people don't even have elecricity.

Capitalism helps the minority and hurts the majority. But, if you fiddle with the formula, then the balance can be tipped without going towards communism (democratic socialism, for example, is the fairest system I think of that capitalists would agree with)

In the first part of your post, you bring up something else that works against everybody in the entire world, and that is point of view due to social upbringing. It is also why you and so many people, including myself, butt heads in this forum. I'm a gun owning Texan who hunts and is pro - military and has a more moderate point of view while you are the exact opposite (the gun and hunting part has to do with gun laws in the different govts.) In order for any govt. to work, it has to be universally excepted by everyone, including your neighbors. Once again, human nature destroys that.

The beautiful thing about capitalism is that everyone has a chance. Everyone can make themselves better than what they are. The less motivated people get left in the dust and in the gutter because they can not compete with the more ambitious.

[gh2masterwellalmost]

In the first part of your post, you bring up something else that works against everybody in the entire world, and that is point of view due to social upbringing. It is also why you and so many people, including myself, butt heads in this forum. I'm a gun owning Texan who hunts and is pro - military and has a more moderate point of view while you are the exact opposite (the gun and hunting part has to do with gun laws in the different govts.) In order for any govt. to work, it has to be universally excepted by everyone, including your neighbors. Once again, human nature destroys that.

The beautiful thing about capitalism is that everyone has a chance. Everyone can make themselves better than what they are. The less motivated people get left in the dust and in the gutter because they can not compete with the more ambitious.

No offence to you pal, and coming from a 14 year old this is a bit weird, but ur view on capitalism is a little naive.

The problem with capitalism is like i said the rich get richer the poor get poorer.

The main problem with this is education. The poor who can't afford a good school go to the worse off schools. The kids end up getting manual labour jobs (working class, proletarian etc.). Then, those few who can't already afford decent education but have smart kids, they get scholarships. Why? Because the rich don't want a potential smart capitalist to get mixed up in the thick, working class lot.

[Saltines]

No offence to you pal, and coming from a 14 year old this is a bit weird, but ur view on capitalism is a little naive.

The problem with capitalism is like i said the rich get richer the poor get poorer.

The main problem with this is education. The poor who can't afford a good school go to the worse off schools. The kids end up getting manual labour jobs (working class, proletarian etc.). Then, those few who can't already afford decent education but have smart kids, they get scholarships. Why? Because the rich don't want a potential smart capitalist to get mixed up in the thick, working class lot.

Please quit throwing your age into every post. We know how old you are, trust me, we know by now. You don't need to remind us that your 14 years old every time you post about politics.

[Eastwood]

No offence to you pal, and coming from a 14 year old this is a bit weird, but ur view on capitalism is a little naive.

The problem with capitalism is like i said the rich get richer the poor get poorer.

The main problem with this is education. The poor who can't afford a good school go to the worse off schools. The kids end up getting manual labour jobs (working class, proletarian etc.). Then, those few who can't already afford decent education but have smart kids, they get scholarships. Why? Because the rich don't want a potential smart capitalist to get mixed up in the thick, working class lot.

They have scholarships for disadvantaged kids. If you look at the economic boundaries in America, it is the uneducated who are poor, just like you said. I know many people from poor families who attend college. Unfortunately, college is usually not important to families who don't already have a college graduate to push them along. Unless sports are involved, the poor of America have no interest in college, but the opportunity is there.

I believe this is something where you and I will find very little in common. My family is a byproduct of the capitalist system. My family started off working in lumber mills and oil pipe lines, but due to wise financial choices, obtaining an education, investing our money instead of spending, we have been able to pull ourselves out of blue collar and into more lucrative (and less back breaking ::o ) white collar jobs. I, myself, started this way. Not because I had to. My family offered to pay my way. I declined because I felt it would make me a better person. If my grandparents and parents could do it, so could I. So I started working in warehouses and things of that sort and pulled myself up to where I am now. A good job and almost done getting my education. I feel that if all Americans worked for what they had, not just inherited their situations from their families, then we would have a better arguement for capitalism.

Sorry if I seem stuck up or prideful, but that is just the way I feel about it and I don't intend to offend anyone.

[gh2masterwellalmost]

They have scholarships for disadvantaged kids. If you look at the economic boundaries in America, it is the uneducated who are poor, just like you said. I know many people from poor families who attend college. Unfortunately, college is usually not important to families who don't already have a college graduate to push them along. Unless sports are involved, the poor of America have no interest in college, but the opportunity is there.

I believe this is something where you and I will find very little in common. My family is a byproduct of the capitalist system. My family started off working in lumber mills and oil pipe lines, but due to wise financial choices, obtaining an education, investing our money instead of spending, we have been able to pull ourselves out of blue collar and into more lucrative (and less back breaking ::o ) white collar jobs. I, myself, started this way. Not because I had to. My family offered to pay my way. I declined because I felt it would make me a better person. If my grandparents and parents could do it, so could I. So I started working in warehouses and things of that sort and pulled myself up to where I am now. A good job and almost done getting my education. I feel that if all Americans worked for what they had, not just inherited their situations from their families, then we would have a better arguement for capitalism.

Sorry if I seem stuck up or prideful, but that is just the way I feel about it and I don't intend to offend anyone.

You do not force it down my throat, although you are my enemy in my beliefs, you are a kinder enemy than most capitalists are. You are the employer who although ripping off the employees for every penny they have like the capitalists you are they still like you. I find your morals despicable but your personality good. I suppose thats very important, and balances it out nicely :D

Agree to disagree is the best solution here.

[Eastwood]

Then it is settled... Agree to disagree on all things politics.

[gh2masterwellalmost]

Then it is settled... Agree to disagree on all things politics.

But thx for the good debate.

[Eastwood]

I'm always up for debates. I entered this one out of curiosityto see if it would turn into a flaming war of oblivion... Glad to see it didn't happen.

[IErrantVentureI]

I'm very curious as to why you must mention you are fourteen all the time.

[gh2masterwellalmost]

I'm very curious as to why you must mention you are fourteen all the time.

Well I aint sending you a picture pervert. You're sick dude.

[IErrantVentureI]

Meaning that you say it all the time. It's like you're reassuring yourself and the forums that your fourteen and can make "smart" topics. We know you can make good topics for a fourteen year old. Congrats.

And I'm not a pervert. Just thought I'd clear that up for you.

[thorn_9]

I agree that his constant reiteration of his age is a sure sign he is posing as a 14 year old, but frankly I could care less. I personally do think he is 14 because he quotes politics like a kid who read it out of a book and has never really seen it played out.

I hope he's 14 to explain his naivite.

Marx is a hack. You speak of political groups and ideals like the religious speak of religion and the bible. What is written is law and will unfold as written. That's not the world, and you have only to turn on your BBC to see that. Or step out your door, or talk to an adult with respect...something your parents never taught you apparently.

The fact is that is that the greatest empires the world have ever known has been republic (Rome) and Capitalist hiding behind a democratic premise (USA). Those are facts. Commuism is a lingering presence, that will never rule prevelently over more than a handful of countries for a few reasons. One is that education equals demand for opinion and expression in government. The more control people have over their own destiny, the more education they recieve and the more they shy away from comunity pool living. We are animals with ego attached. No getting around it. We by nature create, destroy, take what others create and destroy it. If you haven't come to that conclusion yet, wait till high school, or your brittish equivelant, it should sink in by then.

Now quote back something you read or heard and tell me your age one more time...it might just sink in...

[gh2masterwellalmost]

I agree that his constant reiteration of his age is a sure sign he is posing as a 14 year old, but frankly I could care less. I personally do think he is 14 because he quotes politics like a kid who read it out of a book and has never really seen it played out.

I hope he's 14 to explain his naivite.

Marx is a hack. You speak of political groups and ideals like the religious speak of religion and the bible. What is written is law and will unfold as written. That's not the world, and you have only to turn on your BBC to see that. Or step out your door, or talk to an adult with respect...something your parents never taught you apparently.

The fact is that is that the greatest empires the world have ever known has been republic (Rome) and Capitalist hiding behind a democratic premise (USA). Those are facts. Commuism is a lingering presence, that will never rule prevelently over more than a handful of countries for a few reasons. One is that education equals demand for opinion and expression in government. The more control people have over their own destiny, the more education they recieve and the more they shy away from comunity pool living. We are animals with ego attached. No getting around it. We by nature create, destroy, take what others create and destroy it. If you haven't come to that conclusion yet, wait till high school, or your brittish equivelant, it should sink in by then.

Now quote back something you read or heard and tell me your age one more time...it might just sink in...

Again, you use my age cos you're scared that I'm actually discovering things earlier than you, and because I actually have some damn morals. Yes, the world is capitalist, but this is more disgusting than organised religion (thats saying something in my book) and you can sit there, thinking its ok for the majority to be ripped off by the minority, for the rich to control to poor, constantly telling yourself "hes a kid, thus he must know nothing", but you can't use human nature to go against that Marx is predicting everything correctly, and you forget that China and Russia were poor examples of the communist manifesto (which, as I guess you mistakingly call yourself knowledgable in this field I'd recommend you reading it's only about 40 pages).

And I don't care what age you think I am. Just because you were a thick kid with dreams only of "shooting the bad guy" for the good old American Armed Forces doesn't mean I am.

[sa_nick]

ZOMG, poloticz talk!

[Julio-Claudius]

For me to get this at 14 it took a fair few years of self-teaching politics, so I'm not surprised a politically-unfamiliar 15 year old doesn't get it. Go play with your punk friends, I'll be over there to shout anarchist stuff in a minute :P

Honestly, please someone who gets this respond. I really thought some of the people I lovingly referred to as OAPs would love this thread.

Wow you're a nerdy kid. :P

[Saltines]

Again, you use my age cos you're scared that I'm actually discovering things earlier than you, and because I actually have some damn morals. Yes, the world is capitalist, but this is more disgusting than organised religion (thats saying something in my book) and you can sit there, thinking its ok for the majority to be ripped off by the minority, for the rich to control to poor, constantly telling yourself "hes a kid, thus he must know nothing", but you can't use human nature to go against that Marx is predicting everything correctly, and you forget that China and Russia were poor examples of the communist manifesto (which, as I guess you mistakingly call yourself knowledgable in this field I'd recommend you reading it's only about 40 pages).

And I don't care what age you think I am. Just because you were a thick kid with dreams only of "shooting the bad guy" for the good old American Armed Forces doesn't mean I am.

You completely missed the point in this one..
You dont need to reinforce that your 14 and know about politics. everytime you do it you pretty much say "I'm 14, and no abut pollytacs, im butter dan u"

That's how you come off everytime you sa your 14, to me atleast.

[thorn_9]

I agree, he falls back on his age yet again. He doesn't actually adress the point of the post. So predictable.

GH2Mastah' if you want to be taken seriously you need to reevaluate how you are percieved and actually read the posts and understand them before replying to them.

Everyone I knew at your age, when I was your age, was like you. THought they knew ****. THought they were the smartest kid on the block. Acted like they wanted to be anarchists. REally it was more-often-than-not a childish phase they went through. You act like you have compassion yet you say you admire anarchy whish is more free for all than any political structure in use.

You know why no real country uses anarchy? it's a childish construct that doesn't work.

THen you try to attack me by insinuating I encourage people to go off and shoot others in the military? You know nothing about my service. I have never told anyone this iraq war was right or just...it's not. I don't think killing innocents is ok...so that destroys all your pointless im better than you threads.\

When will you realise its not about coming off as superior? Its about respectfuly telling your perspective and respectfully understanding others...something you have yet to do. You always insult someone when you say you understand them. Thats why the community either doesn't respond to you, or is agressive to you...grow up.

[Julio-Claudius]

I agree, he falls back on his age yet again. He doesn't actually adress the point of the post. So predictable.

GH2Mastah' if you want to be taken seriously you need to reevaluate how you are percieved and actually read the posts and understand them before replying to them.

Everyone I knew at your age, when I was your age, was like you. THought they knew ****. THought they were the smartest kid on the block. Acted like they wanted to be anarchists. REally it was more-often-than-not a childish phase they went through. You act like you have compassion yet you say you admire anarchy whish is more free for all than any political structure in use.

You know why no real country uses anarchy? it's a childish construct that doesn't work.

THen you try to attack me by insinuating I encourage people to go off and shoot others in the military? You know nothing about my service. I have never told anyone this iraq war was right or just...it's not. I don't think killing innocents is ok...so that destroys all your pointless im better than you threads.\

When will you realise its not about coming off as superior? Its about respectfuly telling your perspective and respectfully understanding others...something you have yet to do. You always insult someone when you say you understand them. Thats why the community either doesn't respond to you, or is agressive to you...grow up.
I love you.

Communism and anarchy work excellent on paper. But people are usually greedy and violent and such, so it just doesn't work.

Lets just put it this way, gh2masterwellalmost. If you had seven hundred slaves and a thousand acres of cotton needing to be picked, would you go and help them, or see that they are doing their job right and doing what you tell them?

[gh2masterwellalmost]

I love you.

Communism and anarchy work excellent on paper. But people are usually greedy and violent and such, so it just doesn't work.

Lets just put it this way, gh2masterwellalmost. If you had seven hundred slaves and a thousand acres of cotton needing to be picked, would you go and help them, or see that they are doing their job right and doing what you tell them?

To your question, I'd help them. Would I give up all electronic equipment and globalises belongings for my beliefs to come true, yep.

I have mentioned several times communism and anarchy are unrealistic. I think their published materials are great, but nothing above escapeism.

Like I said in the military thread, democratic socialism is the only political belief of mine which is realistic. I still call myself a communist or anarchist. In the same way I call myself an agnostic but in my true beliefs there is no god, but I still stand by that there's a chance there is a God, thus I'm agnostic. I call myself a communist and anarchist, though realising it won't happen, that it, in some world or another work.

[Julio-Claudius]

To your question, I'd help them. Would I give up all electronic equipment and globalises belongings for my beliefs to come true, yep.
RHETORICAL, FARLEY; YOU ALREADY KNOW THE ANSWER! :mad:

[admanimal]

To your question, I'd help them. Would I give up all electronic equipment and globalises belongings for my beliefs to come true, yep.



...says the kid posting in an internet forum about a video game...

[gh2masterwellalmost]

...says the kid posting in an internet forum about a video game...

But the chance has been given to me. I said IF. Some unknown force would pick me out of 6 billion that question, and the answer would be yes. But, until I can make a difference in the world (my career plan of choice is MP), and since the chance to give up my games for anarchism-that-actually-works (if someone could invent that) hasn't come up, I'll still be stoked for RB. Well done on HMX delaying it in Europe btw haha I can buy Halo 3 and Mario Strikers now :P