Join the Military?

[IErrantVentureI]

I'm a junior in high school, and a friend of mine graduated last year, and went to serve the National Guard. I know a lot of people join the military to carry on the family tradition, or to get money for college, or just to make their family proud.

I have no idea what to do with my life after high school, and I have been considering the military for awhile. I wanted to know what you all think about joining up with the military and such. Just to hear your opinions. And please don't turn this thread into a flame war over politics. :)

[Saltines]

I'm a junior in high school, and a friend of mine graduated last year, and went to serve the National Guard. I know a lot of people join the military to carry on the family tradition, or to get money for college, or just to make their family proud.

I have no idea what to do with my life after high school, and I have been considering the military for awhile. I wanted to know what you all think about joining up with the military and such. Just to hear your opinions. And please don't turn this thread into a flame war over politics. :)

I don't really know what to say to things like this..I know alot of people who want to join the military, air force, marines, ect. But ony because they think some of the stuff is cool, make sure you know what your getting yourself into before jumping out there.

I'm a sophomore, and I plan on going to college for engineering and hope to help design/produce weaponry for the military..
so, it's good to know me and my friends will always have some connection eh?

[Eastwood]

Take the ASVAB first. If you don't score well, then stay away. You'll be in infantry. Unless that is your thing, of course.

[IErrantVentureI]

No, I'm not a kid wanting to join up to kill some people. I'm doing it because it's been in the family, and it's something I've always wanted to do.

I am still undecided as to whether to go to college first and military later and all that, but I still have another year to think on it, and my opinion could change several times during a year.


EDIT: The ASVAB is required for Juniors in my school to take, so I'll see then.

[Eastwood]

do you go to private school? because you shouldn't have to take the ASVAB

[IErrantVentureI]

No, regular old high school.

Well, last year my friends that were all juniors took it, so I assumed that we had to take it. Maybe not.

[Eastwood]

I was voluntary at my school. I took it just to see how I would do. I got offered helicopter pilot or artillery. Choice was mine... Decided neither.

[progROCKER]

Please please please (I am willing to get on my hands and knees to beg) do not join the military. If not for your family or any other reason do not join for yourself.

Reasons

1. You only get to live one life, do not put yourself at risk to be killed and end everything you have. Think of the position your family will be in if you get killed, do not put them through that.

2. Do not risk your happiness for the next 4+ years for the false premise of defending your country. If you join the army it is going to be really tough. You will have to go through basic which will suck, or even more hell if you join some sort of special forces group. You will have to make huge sacrifices and for what, so you can go to Iraq, kill others in a fire fight and possible get killed yourself. Watch friends you have made in the military get blown up from a roadside bomb.

3. Think about the Iraqi's. There are over 300,000 Iraqi's dead because of our invasion. Collateral damage kills women, children, innocent people. If you do join the military and go you will see horrible, gruesome, gruesome things that will affect your life forever. Post traumatic stress disorder has caused soldiers to commit suicide or be unhappy and ****ed up for the rest of there lives. Do not put yourself into a kill or be killed situation. Regardless of if someone is shooting at you or not, imagine shooting him and watching his wife and kids crying because there father is dead.


If your only reason for joining is because it is a family tradition then be the one to break that tradition. Why follow in your predecessors footsteps. Make your own path live your own life. Live your life in a spiral not a circle. If you really want to help our country start fund raisers for all the poor city children or something of that nature.

I know everyone who joins does not go to war or be put in a life or death situation, but why risk it. If you are asking why I care so much it is because I do not want to see a family in shambles worrying about you everyday or see another life lost in war.

In the end it's your decision, I hope you will make the right choice.

Thanks for reading this.
Scott Carlson

[thorn_9]

Wow, the previous poster was really adamant about this. Like he had a bad experience. Or knew someone who did.

I have served 5 years in the Army as a communications specialist. I was stationed in KY then Germany after that. I did my training in SC and GA.

If you are going to listen to my point of view, listen to this first...the military is a tool. It's a tool that you can use to build yourself. I have had soldiers who act the fool and were kicked out for it. They say the Army was horrible. I excelled in the military, and completed my contract with no problems, leaving a SGT honorably because I used the military. I took advantage of what it had to offer and didn't let it get me down.

Yes there are bad parts...Basic Training is a joke, NOT hard...unless you are an overweight slug. They put through a few kids who were later determined to be mentally ******ed! if they could do it...anyone can.

My step-father told me when I enlisted to think of the military as a game. For the length of your tour, you have to play the role of a soldier. Its a game. It can be dangerous, even deadly but if you are good at being aware of your surroundings, paying attention to detail, and listen and follow directions, you will be suited for a tour.

Like I said before its a tool you can use to get where you want later in life. Not everyone needs it, and not everyone is suited for it. Ultimately it is up to you, but don't let people on forums determine your choice, myself included. Talk to other active soldiers. Talk to prior service. IGNORE anyone who has never served, since they have NO idea what they are talking about. Would you talk to a truck driver about becoming a cook? no.

Whatever you do, do it for you and your family, and good luck.

P.S. Definately don't listen to anyone who is not in the country or who uses statistics to sway your opinion. As a US citizen there are only a couple things you HAVE to do to enjoy the freedoms you have. Pay taxes, register for the draft and serve jury duty. Military service is an option...

[freakonate]

::: Die For Oil Sucker :::

[Daesania]

I will just throw in my two cents, its your decision, dont let anyone else make that for you. Honestly, you shouldnt be listening to anyone but yourself in this thread. My stepfather was in the military, and my husband was as well. There are ups and downs to every job, but like I said, this is YOUR decision, you need to go with what your heart says. I know a LOT of people who have been in the Air Force at one time or another in their lives, i have nothing but love for the Air Force.

[Kang_Zircon]

The only thing I can tell you is if you have the opportunity to go to college first, take it. At the very least, it will give you more time to find some direction/make a decision. Also, if you can come into the military as an officer, you'll be a lot better off.

[gh2masterwellalmost]

I'm a junior in high school, and a friend of mine graduated last year, and went to serve the National Guard. I know a lot of people join the military to carry on the family tradition, or to get money for college, or just to make their family proud.

I have no idea what to do with my life after high school, and I have been considering the military for awhile. I wanted to know what you all think about joining up with the military and such. Just to hear your opinions. And please don't turn this thread into a flame war over politics. :)

Don't worry about flame over politics, I won't, this isn't related to the words "proletarian" and "capitalist", so I'm ok ;)

Without letting my pacifist views and generally negative views of the American Armed Forces get in the way, you have to ask yourself "is this what I want?" For a start, you're signing your life over. Behind being a tramp (made that up, but the next statement is true) you stand a higher job in dying then any other job.

Do you truly love your country? Would you put your life on the line for it? Do you mind blindly taking orders in the hope that you are the one who gives orders in the end? Can you really pick up that sniper rifle and take out the guy at the other end of the field? Does it go against your morals or ethics or religion?

I think the military is a place which, no offence to those who have signed up to it before, are for those less academically decent. I know you'll say "well if you are academic, you can do X and Y" but ultimately, the armed forces are for the people who can't really get a job in society, and thus must go outside society (for the army is outside society, outside the real world even) for a job.

For myself, I would rather be killed of cowardice, than in a time of war not refuse being forced into it. I was in the "Air Cadets", a sorta club for potential RAF military, I never wanted to join but it sounded fun. I flew a plane, did some activities, but drill was a living nightmare, and every single time we saluted the flag I felt guilty, as if this is going against my morals. Not far in, I quit.

To break it down simply for you. Look at what you're good at. If you specialise in something decent like maths or physics you could really get a good job. But, if your marks are failing, and you answered yes to those questions I asked above, go on, join the "Friendly Fire Crew", the reason why 1 in 10 Britains in Iraq die... but I warn you, you might not find it enjoyable, and you can't just leave the armed forces in an instant...

[Julio-Claudius]

::: Die For Oil Sucker :::
[/thread]

Please go to College and get your higher education. A dumb soldier is a dead soldier.

Have you considered which part of the Armed Forces you wish to join? The Marines usually go first. An educated Air Force dude dies last.

You could do other things in the military other than killing people, like a medic.

[Eastwood]

::: Die For Oil Sucker :::

Tasteless comment IMO. He said he didn't want political responses... Nothing constructive in that quote.

[thorn_9]

I think the military is a place which, no offence to those who have signed up to it before, are for those less academically decent. I know you'll say "well if you are academic, you can do X and Y" but ultimately, the armed forces are for the people who can't really get a job in society, and thus must go outside society (for the army is outside society, outside the real world even) for a job.


This is the most obsurd idea. For the uneducated that go into the military, all tuition is 75% off so you CAN educate yourself. A large part of the promotion structure is self educating. TO say the statement above is true, you have to be completely uninformed.

[IbanezBassist_v2]

Take the ASVAB first. If you don't score well, then stay away. You'll be in infantry. Unless that is your thing, of course.

I thought it was mandatory for for everyone to take the ASVAB. Missouri makes their students take it.

Secondly. Know matter what branch he decides to join, if in fact he does. He will be infantry. That is what basic/boot is for. You don't get trained in your career field, you get trained how to survive/kill. AIT or Tech school is where you go, when you have a separate career choice. When in the military, you will always be infantry....

[IbanezBassist_v2]

Please please please (I am willing to get on my hands and knees to beg) do not join the military. If not for your family or any other reason do not join for yourself.

Reasons

1. You only get to live one life, do not put yourself at risk to be killed and end everything you have.

This comment is the most ignorant of all. Everyday you are at risk of being killed, wether on a highway driving or riding in an airplane. So this is a null statement....



2. Do not risk your happiness for the next 4+ years for the false premise of defending your country. If you join the army it is going to be really tough. You will have to go through basic which will suck, or even more hell if you join some sort of special forces group. You will have to make huge sacrifices and for what, so you can go to Iraq, kill others in a fire fight and possible get killed yourself. Watch friends you have made in the military get blown up from a roadside bomb.

Once again, people can be pissed or happy. It depends on what they choose or get stuck with while in the military. Have you been through basic? Do you personally know it "sucks". Alot of people are under the impression its all screaming and physical training. NOT THE CASE! Basic (after the initial process) is a blast. No pun intended. And since when could you not read. The poster said no political bull****!



3. Think about the Iraqi's.


Ha! Give me a break. You selfish little bastard!



I know everyone who joins does not go to war or be put in a life or death situation, but why risk it.

Why risk living then, isn't life full of choices and risk.

[gh2masterwellalmost]

This comment is the most ignorant of all. Everyday you are at risk of being killed, wether on a highway driving or riding in an airplane. So this is a null statement....



Once again, people can be pissed or happy. It depends on what they choose or get stuck with while in the military. Have you been through basic? Do you personally know it "sucks". Alot of people are under the impression its all screaming and physical training. NOT THE CASE! Basic (after the initial process) is a blast. No pun intended. And since when could you not read. The poster said no political bull****!



Ha! Give me a break. You selfish little bastard!



Why risk living then, isn't life full of choices and risk.

I think you're being a bit cruel to this guy. I agree with what he's saying, but not how he's saying it. For me, the guy you basically decimated in an arguement has gotten to the correct ending but the incorrect way, IMHO, if that makes sense. "The end justifies the means" to quote a certain, quite military man, named Lenin.

Ultimately, it comes down to your morals. (What I'm about to say I will try to do in an un-bias way but I can't help it if some bias gets in). For some people, what the country says is what is right. These people are great military men, they will enjoy life to the full, put their american (or other western) flag outside their house in pride, and have the perfect American family, as they see fit.

But, for other, be it on religious or moral grounds, believe being the pawn (I know it sounds bias, I'm trying to not make it so) in America's big scale version of chess is not fun. You can do great things in the military - I have the mathematical skills to become a stockbroker, but the question I'd ask is "is what I'm doing right?" I'd answer no that question.

So - if your Commanding Officer says jump, do you say "how high" or "why?". If the former, I'll see you in a few years for "Friendly Firing" yet more British troops (sorry, a crushing generalisation, but what else would you expect from me :P). If the answer to the question is "why", go and do your best grade wise, go to college, and go get a job you agree with.

But, you asked for people's opinions, and as I've mentioend before, I am strongly against it. But the last paragraph i the best unbias stuff to help your decision I can write.

I'm sure you'll make the right decision, which is not neccesarily mine. And also, don't just follow your army careers advisor or whoever got you this information, search for both sides. Look at your other skills - are there any alternatives? Would I prefer the military to job A or B? etc.

Hope I've helped. Good luck.

[FallenAce]

I was not required to take the ASVAB, but I took it in 2002. I qualified for military intelligence, even though I just wanted to be a Ranger.

Well, lo-and-behold, it's five years later and I never joined. Why? Turns out, at the time of my attempt, they were still rejecting people for surgical scars. If you have a surgical scar larger than one inch, it was something that they felt made you unfit.

If this is what you want, just be ready with reasons for any scars. Also, don't lie on your application. Supposedly, they make you reapply later and if any of your answers differ, you'll be disqualified (I don't know if that's true because I never got that far).

[FallenAce]

"The end justifies the means" to quote a certain, quite military man, named Lenin.


Just so you know, that's actually a quote from Machiavelli, in a book called <I>The Prince</I>. Here you go: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Machiavelli

[Kang_Zircon]

I went to high school in two different states (TX, CA) and never heard of anyone having to take the ASVAB. Is this a very recent policy? My brother graduated in 2002 and didn't take it, so I'm just curious if it's a state thing or what.

[gh2masterwellalmost]

Just so you know, that's actually a quote from Machiavelli, in a book called <I>The Prince</I>. Here you go: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Machiavelli

But most famously Lenin adhered to it. A book didn't have the same power as he did over that country... an evil, but excellent politician.

[IbanezBassist_v2]

Also, don't lie on your application. Supposedly, they make you reapply later and if any of your answers differ, you'll be disqualified (I don't know if that's true because I never got that far).

This is very true. Even the most insignificant screw up will get ya! :(


I went to high school in two different states (TX, CA) and never heard of anyone having to take the ASVAB. Is this a very recent policy? My brother graduated in 2002 and didn't take it, so I'm just curious if it's a state thing or what.

I took it in 2000. It may be required by certain states....

(EDIT) Here is info on the ASVAB (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ASVAB).

[FallenAce]

But most famously Lenin adhered to it. A book didn't have the same power as he did over that country... an evil, but excellent politician.
I'm sorry, I don't want to sound contradictive, and I feel this will turn too far off-topic, but that quote is more famously associated with Machiavelli than Vladimir Lenin.

[thorn_9]

I'm sorry, I don't want to sound contradictive, and I feel this will turn too far off-topic, but that quote is more famously associated with Machiavelli than Vladimir Lenin.

I second this. The Prince was used by every dictator as a 'how to' guide.

[gh2masterwellalmost]

I'm sorry, I don't want to sound contradictive, and I feel this will turn too far off-topic, but that quote is more famously associated with Machiavelli than Vladimir Lenin.

For you maybe, but in my school and at my home that was known as a Lenin/Stalin reference.

But, to stop this going off topic, I will not cause arguement with you, you're a good member, and the quote is still as strong whoever you say said it.

[progROCKER]

This comment is the most ignorant of all. Everyday you are at risk of being killed, wether on a highway driving or riding in an airplane. So this is a null statement....



Once again, people can be pissed or happy. It depends on what they choose or get stuck with while in the military. Have you been through basic? Do you personally know it "sucks". Alot of people are under the impression its all screaming and physical training. NOT THE CASE! Basic (after the initial process) is a blast. No pun intended. And since when could you not read. The poster said no political bull****!



Ha! Give me a break. You selfish little bastard!



Why risk living then, isn't life full of choices and risk.

My friend went to basic and said it sucked, come to think of it he was never in good shape. You honestly think your closer to death in an airplane or an automobile, even if that was true you need cars to function in society now and days unless you live in a city, you do not need war.

How am I being selfish if I care about Iraqi's. Ignore everything in () because he did not want this thread to become political. (less people died and life was better for the Iraqi's under Saddam's regime)

I do not know why you are criticizing me anyway, this forum was never meant to be a debate it was meant to give individual opinions on whether or not he should join the military.

[Eastwood]

I was not required to take the ASVAB, but I took it in 2002. I qualified for military intelligence, even though I just wanted to be a Ranger.

Well, lo-and-behold, it's five years later and I never joined. Why? Turns out, at the time of my attempt, they were still rejecting people for surgical scars. If you have a surgical scar larger than one inch, it was something that they felt made you unfit.

If this is what you want, just be ready with reasons for any scars. Also, don't lie on your application. Supposedly, they make you reapply later and if any of your answers differ, you'll be disqualified (I don't know if that's true because I never got that far).

They disqualified people for that back then? I've got two surgical scars bigger than an inch. (damn football!) I think it has something to do with the area being a weak spot. Possible nerve damage that can effect the muscle.

[FallenAce]

But the functional power of the military is based from politics, and anyone's opinion about someone's choice to serve is going to be based from their political view. You can't really take personal ideology out of this, but you can respect someone else's opinion and counter, as long as you don't insult the person.

If it stays congenial, we shouldn't have any troubles with this.

Clearly, we have a clash of views here, but I'm more interested in what makes Ibanez think progROCKER is selfish than I am with hearing that he thinks it.

Enlighten please, sir.

[FallenAce]

They disqualified people for that back then? I've got two surgical scars bigger than an inch. (damn football!) I think it has something to do with the area being a weak spot. Possible nerve damage that can effect the muscle.
Well, I was told it was any surgical scar. I believe they've lightened restrictions. However, mine is from hernia surgery, so it doesn't really matter for me. This little patch of mesh has already done me in for any military career... Unless we actually start drafting again. I bet if we get that desperate (like if China invaded or something) they'd overlook it... I bet if the whole John Titor thing happened, they'd overlook it for that too.

[Eastwood]

Well, I was told it was any surgical scar. I believe they've lightened restrictions. However, mine is from hernia surgery, so it doesn't really matter for me. This little patch of mesh has already done me in for any military career... Unless we actually start drafting again. I bet if we get that desperate (like if China invaded or something) they'd overlook it... I bet if the whole John Titor thing happened, they'd overlook it for that too.

Had to Wiki John Titor... Interesting fellow, that Titor..:D

[FallenAce]

It's actually quite awesome, if you read all the post. He talks about a variable geographical lock system to keep him planted to an earthly (not "The" earthly - go M-Theory!) surface.

I've spent a lot of time explaining M-Theory to my friends who willingly listen to me prattling on about how cool the Time-Space Continuum is. You should defininitely read up on Zero Divergence and our eternal failure to meet it.

EDIT: You know, John Titor is in the military in the future...

[gh2masterwellalmost]

But the functional power of the military is based from politics, and anyone's opinion about someone's choice to serve is going to be based from their political view. You can't really take personal ideology out of this, but you can respect someone else's opinion and counter, as long as you don't insult the person.

If it stays congenial, we shouldn't have any troubles with this.

Clearly, we have a clash of views here, but I'm more interested in what makes Ibanez think progROCKER is selfish than I am with hearing that he thinks it.

Enlighten please, sir.

Sorry if I'm seeing arguementitive here, you're a good honest poster, but I disagree mr fallenace. Again. :P I think you're getting morals here a bit mixed up with politics. Politics is regarding what state controls, be it economy or marajuana use, but you can be under a communist, an anarchist, a capitalist, a fachist, whatever system you like and I'm anti-military, because I believe 1) all humans are equal from birth 2) nobody has the right to take away life.

I feel that yes a bit of humility will be good, and so far this post has been a very good arguement, but fair debate. I agree with you that I would like to know what is wrong with progROCKER's beliefs.

Although I like your beliefs progROCKER, and Iraq is yet another of Marx's predictions for the last step of capitalism: "neo-colonialism involving unequal exchange and humanitarian imperialism where armed intervention in foreign countries is morally justified by reference to humane concerns", but one sentence you said was a little, er, controversial shall I say. Although, by all means, i hate what the UK and USA have done over here, this was a little out of taste: " (less people died and life was better for the Iraqi's under Saddam's regime)". I disagree with you here. The whole "sunni shi'ite" (spell check) thing, and attempted genocide was wrong. But thats for the Iraqis to have a revolution for. Not for us to go run over there for oil, which even the pro-military people on here will admit is true.

Those who do want to join the military, I recommend you look a couple of pages back at my attempt to be unbiased, with questions you should be asking yourself. Call it a test of whether you could put up with the military, if you will. The one with the "If the CO says jump do you say "how high" or "why"?"

[IbanezBassist_v2]

Clearly, we have a clash of views here, but I'm more interested in what makes Ibanez think progROCKER is selfish than I am with hearing that he thinks it.

Enlighten please, sir.

The whole "stop the war for Iraqi people" thing is getting old. These people have been fighting each other for hundreds of years. There has been centuries of torture, and murder, genocide! For god sakes. And by our occupation in the Middle East, we are in a very ****ed situation, I agree.

But when its said, we need to stop this for the Iraqis. No, we need to stop this for our own people, for the people that protect us when called upon. The American troops as a whole may not like their current situation, but believe this is the correct thing to be doing. Rebuilding Iraq, so they can help themselves.

Our occupation has not created this environment, it has magnified it.

[thorn_9]

Every general on the ground in Iraq has stated Iraq can not be fixed with military force. It is up to the people of Iraq to come together and learn to live in peace. We have given years trying to accomplish this. Then the parliment took a month off cause its hot! while our soldiers defended their homes and cities.

They had their chance to fix it with us, and CHOSE not to. New we need to get the hell out and let the cards land where they may. If they are going to live, they will figure it out, otherwise they will die. But it should be on their merit, not ours.

[IErrantVentureI]

I do appreciate all of your opinions on this subject, everyone. Please continue to post and discuss this if you want. I'm going to take the ASVAB soon, so hopefully that will let me know if I'm even cut out mentally for the military. Isn't that what it's for? To see what'd you'd do in the military?

[Apples]

Service to one's country is an admirable and respectable choice to make in life.

However, the current state of toxic leadership running this country gives me pause about wanting to serve it.

[FallenAce]

This makes total sense, guys. I completely agree with Thorn and Ibanez on these last posts.

However, we've got some pretty high-level proof (all of recorded history) that governing themselves leads to worse conditions for nearly the entire area, save the handful of families in control of the petroleum supply.

We are trying to show them how other, less war-torn countries have found success. Look at the UK... They are geographically tiny but have been a dominant body for effectively all of recent history.

The greatest change that these guys need to learn is just that it's not important who is right within their beliefs to land, religion, etc. They need to shift that paradaigm instead to think that there is not wrong in <I>not</I> being of the same political party, sect, etc.

If they are unwilling to learn on their own, and they are hurting themselves or others around them, isn't someone from the outside morally obligated to persuade them to see it? We would do it for a single alcoholic or drug addict in our family, but we argue whether or not it's acceptable to do it for millions?

I do not condone war or killing... all I can say is that no matter what happens, war will be going on there until a change is made. Is it wrong to try to help control the outcome to something that is closer to even?

I know, I know... we benefit too, but I don't believe that the fact that we who are involved benefit should negate the fact that it benefits nearly everyone around the world.

Personally, I can put aside these issues of oil, and I see that people are suffering, and that sucks. I know that there a thousand and one political issues involved in this, but I feel this was inevitable, and I thank anyone who would have the strength, no matter their initial reasoning, to join the military and bring an end to these struggles.

I owe my alliegance to my countrymen more than my country, because they are the reason I am here at all.

[gh2masterwellalmost]

The whole "stop the war for Iraqi people" thing is getting old. These people have been fighting each other for hundreds of years. There has been centuries of torture, and murder, genocide! For god sakes. And by our occupation in the Middle East, we are in a very ****ed situation, I agree.

But when its said, we need to stop this for the Iraqis. No, we need to stop this for our own people, for the people that protect us when called upon. The American troops as a whole may not like their current situation, but believe this is the correct thing to be doing. Rebuilding Iraq, so they can help themselves.

Our occupation has not created this environment, it has magnified it.

I'm sorry to repeat but does this remind you of anything: "neo-colonialism involving unequal exchange and humanitarian imperialism where armed intervention in foreign countries is morally justified by reference to humane concerns". Remind you of anything?

War is corrupt. The military, as an idea of helping people (as in the soldiers) isn't. Iraq is completely corrupt. Not what the military is doing is corrupt, its whos giving the orders, whatever your beliefs on pacifism is. Iraq was messed up before, but forcing them into capitalism means we can exploit them, make the east/west divide larger as it an lower-economically-developed country. This is the same in Africa. Fine, keep capitalism going, but going into wars for oil and to mask that its another place your poorly made toys is wrong.

[IbanezBassist_v2]

Iraq was messed up before, but forcing them into capitalism means we can exploit them, make the east/west divide larger as it an lower-economically-developed country. This is the same in Africa. Fine, keep capitalism going, but going into wars for oil and to mask that its another place your poorly made toys is wrong.

We are not forcing anyone, the majority of people in Iraqi welcome this and want a stable govt body. How can something be forced when people accept it with open arms. This secular violence isn't because of a government. Its because of who is in charge of said government. Until the Middle Eastern tribes can accept their religion/political differences, there will always be bloodshed.

[Julio-Claudius]

We are not forcing anyone, the majority of people in Iraqi welcome this and want a stable govt body. How can something be forced when people accept it with open arms.
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

AHA!

AHA!

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

[IbanezBassist_v2]

It defeats the purpose and takes the entire post out of context when you delete half of it. ASS!

[gh2masterwellalmost]

We are not forcing anyone, the majority of people in Iraqi welcome this and want a stable govt body. How can something be forced when people accept it with open arms. This secular violence isn't because of a government. Its because of who is in charge of said government. Until the Middle Eastern tribes can accept their religion/political differences, there will always be bloodshed.

Yes, they do want this, but they are poorly educated, and will continue to be thanks to the new government to be put in. They have been through the horrible pain of dictatorship by an evil dictatator - now they shall be through a nice dictator called the media and the seeking of profit.

Whether you agree with the principles of capitalism or not, within economic globalisation the companies need as cheap labour as possible. In a newly developed economy this is possible, and is perfect. This, along with oil, is GREAT for a nice war.

The same goes for Africa. The tribal/religious wars were made worse by drawing lines in the sand "this is my country, this is yours". This, fine, works in a developed economy, for example North America and Europe.

But things are made worse by these lines in the less developed economy. They have to borrow more money. They get in more debt. They are in dire termoil, like we saw in Germany in the 1920s, they get desperate, they'll take any old dictator or corrupt government. But then, if we get involved, we are a bias party. We will give the government that gives the most profit through cheap labour, and this is what is happening in Asia and the Middle East.

We may all be glad for videogames, a nice plus to economic globalisation. But people in Africa earning a doller a day to make shoes (I feel very guilty with my converses, made in Vietnam, I am seriously considering getting rid of them) is wrong, and we cannot force our capitalist mumbo-jumbo on these undevloped countries. But where's there's profit, people will look for cheap labour. This puts many out of work in our country, all because there are countries without a minimum wage, where you can pay people the equivelent of one McDonalds burger a week.

[gh2masterwellalmost]

It defeats the purpose and takes the entire post out of context when you delete half of it. ASS!

Is this directed at me?

[IbanezBassist_v2]

Is this directed at me?

No.........

[Julio-Claudius]

No.........

Yeah, the roadside bombs, kids with AK-47's, and buildings with hundreds of bulletholes on each wall really tells us that they welcome us with open arms.

Saddam Hussein was never our problem. He never had nukes. We should've never been there in the first place. If the Iraqi's really wanted freedom from him they would've either rebelled or left.

[IbanezBassist_v2]

Yeah, the roadside bombs, kids with AK-47's, and buildings with hundreds of bulletholes on each wall really tells us that they welcome us with open arms.

Saddam Hussein was never our problem. He never had nukes. We should've never been there in the first place. If the Iraqi's really wanted freedom from him they would've either rebelled or left.

I find anything you have to say about this considerably humorous, due to the fact of your outrageously stupid signature.

[Julio-Claudius]

I find anything you have to say about this considerably humorous, due to the fact of your outrageously stupid signature.

I like your glasses. :cool:

[gh2masterwellalmost]

Yeah, the roadside bombs, kids with AK-47's, and buildings with hundreds of bulletholes on each wall really tells us that they welcome us with open arms.

Saddam Hussein was never our problem. He never had nukes. We should've never been there in the first place. If the Iraqi's really wanted freedom from him they would've either rebelled or left.

Yep, my thoughts exactly. Scares me to think we're agreeing on things, I'm sure on your news on me agreeing you'll switch opinions lol j/k


I like your glasses. :cool:

Haha, the almost hippy beard puts his beliefs to shame :P

[thorn_9]

There is no reason to bash someones personal appearance, simply because they either ave a different view or they think hitler playing the banjo is funny...because hell, it is.

"Yes, they do want this, but they are poorly educated, and will continue to be thanks to the new government to be put in. They have been through the horrible pain of dictatorship by an evil dictatator - now they shall be through a nice dictator called the media and the seeking of profit."

This is a gross generalization that is simply not true. The government in place was voted in place. As stated before, the problem in Iraq is the in-fighting (civil war) between tribes, and the guerilla fighting of those tribes against the brit and us troops.

The vast majority of Iraqis want peace and democracy, the problem are the extremists.

"Yeah, the roadside bombs, kids with AK-47's, and buildings with hundreds of bulletholes on each wall really tells us that they welcome us with open arms."

I just can't agree that this is the case with Iraqis as a whole, these are the extremists.

"Saddam Hussein was never our problem. He never had nukes. We should've never been there in the first place. If the Iraqi's really wanted freedom from him they would've either rebelled or left."

I am with you 100% on this. Bush is a dumb**** and will go down in history as the biggest mistake of a president the US has ever had yet, and that says alot! It's going to take us a long time as a country to regain the footing we had in the world.

[Julio-Claudius]

There is no reason to bash someones personal appearance

?

I have the same glasses as him. Or was that at GH2 master?

Well other than that I agree with you.

[gh2masterwellalmost]

There is no reason to bash someones personal appearance, simply because they either ave a different view or they think hitler playing the banjo is funny...because hell, it is.

"Yes, they do want this, but they are poorly educated, and will continue to be thanks to the new government to be put in. They have been through the horrible pain of dictatorship by an evil dictatator - now they shall be through a nice dictator called the media and the seeking of profit."

This is a gross generalization that is simply not true. The government in place was voted in place. As stated before, the problem in Iraq is the in-fighting (civil war) between tribes, and the guerilla fighting of those tribes against the brit and us troops.

The vast majority of Iraqis want peace and democracy, the problem are the extremists.

"Yeah, the roadside bombs, kids with AK-47's, and buildings with hundreds of bulletholes on each wall really tells us that they welcome us with open arms."

I just can't agree that this is the case with Iraqis as a whole, these are the extremists.

"Saddam Hussein was never our problem. He never had nukes. We should've never been there in the first place. If the Iraqi's really wanted freedom from him they would've either rebelled or left."

I am with you 100% on this. Bush is a dumb**** and will go down in history as the biggest mistake of a president the US has ever had yet, and that says alot! It's going to take us a long time as a country to regain the footing we had in the world.

First off, I was not bashing IbanezBassist, thus the ":P" I think his beard is cool.

My generalisation, if so incorrect, why is yours so correct? That they were "voted in". Do they realise that they're voting for a worse system than before where they'll be working for nothing for more $100 Nike Shoes? The media helps them vote and tells them what to do - in the 1992 UK general election the Conservative party won due to support from the newsapaper in biggest circulation, which won the headline the next day "It woz the Sun what won it". Good to see tabloids not being grammatically incorrect:rolleyes:

Democracy is the most fair system we can give out without chaos (anarchy) or police state style (dictatorship). But, the USA and the UK helping put in this system is just another great business oportunity. Thats why the rich get richer and the poor get richer, why the East/West gap is so large, everything Marx predicted, its happening (tho his communist revolution at the end of stage 3, which is the stage now, seems unlikely).

But yes, I agree with you and Julio on the final quote. Whether you're pacifist or not, that war is wrong.

[KillerIsMe]

I would never in my life join the army. I just don't see the point in it. I mean, you only have one life, why waste it on rough training, watching friends die and not knowing if you're gonna survive the day?

This is just my opinion, everyone can do as they like, I'm not saying the one's who DO join the army are stupid or anything.
I on the other hand am going to answer the tests wrong on purpose, just so I don't have to serve...

[Julio-Claudius]

Hilary Clinton, Bill Clinton, and Al Gore are all on a plane on the way to a debate in New York. The plane crashes in the Atlantic, there are no survivors. As Hilary, Bill, and Al float up to heaven, they see God sitting in a golden throne before them. "Before I get you to Heaven, I must know what you believe," God says. "Al, what do you believe?"

"Well sir, I believe that fuel-injection engines are evil and are the cause of the overheating and eventual overcooling of the planet, and I believe it is my duty to stop their production and save the human race."

"That is an honorable cause," God says. "Please take this seat to my right. Bill, what do you believe?"

"Sir, I believe in democracy, and that nobody should be oppressed," Bill says.

"Also honorable. Please sit to my left. Hilary, what do you believe?"

"I believe that you are in my seat."

Just trying to lighten up the mood. :(

[gh2masterwellalmost]

I would never in my life join the army. I just don't see the point in it. I mean, you only have one life, why waste it on rough training, watching friends die and not knowing if you're gonna survive the day?

This is just my opinion, everyone can do as they like, I'm not saying the one's who DO join the army are stupid or anything.
I on the other hand am going to answer the tests wrong on purpose, just so I don't have to serve...

Wait... in schools they make you take the test? Oh I'd love it - a test I could deliberately fail, just write "no i'm a pacifist I ain't gonna die for this hell-hole" on it haha, oh I'm jealous of you American school kids you could have a lot of fun with that test.

"Do you shoot bad guys" Nope, just my fellow armed forces members haha

[KillerIsMe]

Wait... in schools they make you take the test? Oh I'd love it - a test I could deliberately fail, just write "no i'm a pacifist I ain't gonna die for this hell-hole" on it haha, oh I'm jealous of you American school kids you could have a lot of fun with that test.

"Do you shoot bad guys" Nope, just my fellow armed forces members haha

Well, I don't live in America, I live in Sweden, and here they make you take a test when you're 18, and unless you fail you have to like join the army for like a year or so.

I don't know how it works in the US.

[Daesania]

I think it depends on the state/school. My high school was very very military oriented (seeing as Offutt Airforce base is our whole city basically) and 75% of the kids there had military parents. We were not required to take the ASVAB.. I never did atleast. So from what it looks like it varies between the states and/or schools themselves, not the US as a whole.

[Julio-Claudius]

Wait... in schools they make you take the test? Oh I'd love it - a test I could deliberately fail, just write "no i'm a pacifist I ain't gonna die for this hell-hole" on it haha, oh I'm jealous of you American school kids you could have a lot of fun with that test.

"Do you shoot bad guys" Nope, just my fellow armed forces members haha

Yeah they force you to take it in America. I plan on skipping the day I have to take that test.

[Daesania]

They cant FORCE you to do anything and again, that does not apply to the whole US as you state Julio, it varies by state and/or school.

[Julio-Claudius]

They cant FORCE you to do anything and again, that does not apply to the whole US as you state Julio, it varies by state and/or school.
You know what? I should take it. Political statement time bebbeh. :cool:

[KillerIsMe]

You know what? I should take it. Political statement time bebbeh. :cool:

Go for it dude! :)

[Julio-Claudius]

Go for it dude! :)
Expellation is no big deal. :cool:

[KillerIsMe]

Expellation is no big deal. :cool:

Neverending glory > School.

[valityr]

Don't kill anymore of our troops plz.

And i do CCF at school, it's hella' fun. Although i have absolutely no intention of joining up, i just enjoy the shooting and shiz.

[Julio-Claudius]

Neverending glory > School.
Doing good in school = neverending glory. :(

[tharshmetalUK]

There are some wars that were worth fighting for like WW1 and 2 because if nobody wanted to fight in those wars then the world would be ruled by the Nazis. If another one of those situations ever came up where my country was at risk of being invaded then I would not hesitate to join.

The soldiers who are in Iraq now were told they were going to disarm Saddam of his WMD's which never existed. I agree that we should have gotten rid of Saddam but shoulden't that have happened in the first Gulf War?

U shud only join the military if you think you're country is at risk and are u prepared to be lied to by you're government?

[Eastwood]

Haha, the almost hippy beard puts his beliefs to shame :P

What is wrong with chin strap beards? *points to own pic* just because you can't grow one, doesn't mean you should bash them.

[gh2masterwellalmost]

What is wrong with chin strap beards? *points to own pic* just because you can't grow one, doesn't mean you should bash them.

Dude, the ":P" means that I'm complementing them. Though I prefer the clean shaven look (yes I have to shave... god damn moustache growing here) I'm just joking along. Why is it everyone is so serious? I thought the forumites would know ":P" means tongue-in-cheek sarcasm.

[IbanezBassist_v2]

I would never in my life join the army. I just don't see the point in it. I mean, you only have one life, why waste it


I on the other hand am going to answer the tests wrong on purpose, just so I don't have to serve...

So you are saying that everyone that serves, so you can sit here and claim its a waste while they give you the opportunity to do so, is wasteful. News flash! Without those willing to make that ultimate sacrifice, or waste as you so put it, you wouldn't be here today on some video game forum. So show a little respect for the people that serve. I'm sure they think that it is anything other than a waste!

And on the second statement. It really show what kind of person you are. A COWARD!

[gh2masterwellalmost]

So you are saying that everyone that serves, so you can sit here and claim its a waste while they give you the opportunity to do so, is wasteful. News flash! Without those willing to make that ultimate sacrifice, or waste as you so put it, you wouldn't be here today on some video game forum. So show a little respect for the people that serve. I'm sure they think that it is anything other than a waste!

And on the second statement. It really show what kind of person you are. A COWARD!

Mr Ibanez (thats a kl name, Mr Ibanez... anyway back on topic) I think you're being a bit strong on the fella. For me, his sentiment is good, but the way he put it, and WHY he feels that way is wrong.

I agree with you, that what he said about "wasting their lives" is wrong. Joining the military requires a lot of guts, and morals/political beliefs to be with the army. Cos if your worse enemy is your C.O. you still have to jump when he says so. It is a long process, and one which some enjoy, some don't.

For me, the military is a great way for people to get a job, no matter what. Its the communist dream - no unemployment benifits because there's always a job somewhere. But, what the army do - well thats where my beliefs alter. If there was national service or w.e., I'd happily be a medic or something - but I could never hold a gun and fire at a man I was told to fire at, a fellow human being, whether he's got "Saddam was my Lover" on his t-shirt or the Nazi symbol, I could not do it.

I think to call the dude a coward Mr Ibanez is a little wrong of you, and is the only blemish in your arguement. This dude obviously doesn't like the military due to his beliefs - but I defend you Mr Ibanez when you say that is not to waste a life - it pays well, if you climb the ladder, and is an enjoyable life I'm sure. But the ethics... thats where it gets fuzzy.

[IbanezBassist_v2]

My statement of me calling him a coward is the fact that he will self sabotage his scores, simply by guessing his answers. That truly is cowardly and simply displays his ignorance. What would you say of a draft dodger? Say you got drafted and he didn't simply because he left country or hid out. What would you think then?

I realize that the draft is inactive as of this point, but this is just an example of why I think his statement is cowardly.

[gh2masterwellalmost]

My statement of me calling him a coward is the fact that he will self sabotage his scores, simply by guessing his answers. That truly is cowardly and simply displays his ignorance. What would you say of a draft dodger? Say you got drafted and he didn't simply because he left country or hid out. What would you think then?

I realize that the draft is inactive as of this point, but this is just an example of why I think his statement is cowardly.

Hmmm for me I can't quite see it so black and white. You talk about "draft-dodgers" and what i'd think - well my decision on whether it would be right would be based on "do you have to kill, are there alternatives", "is it a war fair" etc. etc.

I think this is all a bit World War One tactics (read some great poetry by sassoon and stuff) where girls on the street would put a white poppy on you if you didn't volunteer, call you coward. I find drafts completely and utterly morally wrong on so many levels. But, I can agree with the Swiss idea - give every man a gun and train em (gun crime is low in the country) and then if needed they can be drafted, but stay neutral with everyone, so there is no war.

But yes, what he said was ignorant. I think the idea of sabotaging the test is silly - just don't take it. If you have to, sit there and hand an empty test paper if you disagree with the morals of it. But, don't diss the people who are brave enough to go to the military - you're not a coward to not volunteer in the event of war, but its ignorant to have a go at people just because they think the military is right.

Again, I have a nice quote: "I disagree with what you're saying, but I'll fight to the death for your right to say it". Thats pretty much my view on the military, just don't call them "life-wasters", they're not killing machines, they are human beings. But thats what I say to all the other forces in Iraq (btw, well done Britain for pulling out of Basra, Brown is making a good change)