ERSB: Friend or Foe

[JRSPipboy2008]

I'm a 33 year old male living in the United States. I know all the dirty words and use quite of few of them. I'm mature enough to handle strong language and I'm willing to bet that so can a great deal many more people.

So my question is thus, will we ever see songs with adult language? Would we even want that? How do we deal with our players under the age of 18 downloading that kind of content? Should that be up to Harmonix or the parents?

What are your thoughts?

[shadebug]

it should be up to the bands. If the bands are willing to allow a radio edit then hmx can do that

[dady5000]

I'm a 33 year old male living in the United States. I know all the dirty words and use quite of few of them. I'm mature enough to handle strong language and I'm willing to be that so can a great deal many more people.

So my question is thus, will we ever see songs with adult language? Would we even want that? How do we deal with our players under the age of 18 downloading that kind of content? Should that be up to Harmonix or the parents?

What are your thoughts?

FYI, the ESRB is there for the well being of the Video Game industry. If it wasn't there, Video Games might've been banned in the early-mid 90's.

To answer your question, yes. We already have some songs with semi-controverisal words. Whore, Rape, Murder. Probably a few more.


The Parents would be great....but a good number of them are too dumb to care. So the ESRB has to do the job for them.

[bonethug0108]

The dlc is rated independent of the game, so sure, throw on some songs that might be too bleeped or too graphic.

No need to just release "M" material though. A little of everything is nice.

[JRSPipboy2008]

There's no doubt the ERSB has it's uses.

I guess there's just a lot of music I listen to that I'd like to play in game that because of language probably won't ever make it. I was thinking about the Nine Inch Nails songs we have available to us and I wonder if it's ever been considered that even though these songs are "tame" by comparrison, doesn't it still expose people to the band in general and for those that like it inspire them to seek more of it out? I think you'll find there are some pretty strong songs in the NIN library that would fall under the mature rating by ESRB.

[vsTerminus]

As far as I, myself, am concerned, bring it on. I'd love to see the lyrics the way they were originally written, and without those awkward (I'm a shockwave and I'll take your ....... life) pauses in the lyrics.

But I can see too many pitfalls.

I realize many of you are in your thirties, fourties, etc and loving Rock Band. But I bet some of you have kids. Or grandkids who come to visit even. Neices, nephews, etc.
You don't necessarily want them to be singing along to a song with F*** in it every 15 seconds.

So anyways, if they release uncensored DLC I think they also have to release a censored T-rated version so people can make the choice that suits them the best.

[CowShark]

Looks like I'm the first person to vote "undecided." It's because playing vox primarily, it doesn't matter.

I can insert or omit my own swear words at will!

I have the power!

[bonethug0108]

Looks like I'm the first person to vote "undecided." It's because playing vox primarily, it doesn't matter.

I can insert or omit my own swear words at will!

I have the power!

HE-MAN?!?:eek:

Had to do it.:D

But yeah, we do that too. My girlfriend just loves to sing the "correct" version of creep.:cool:

[ZortheConqueror]

I'm with Lewis Black on this.

There's no such thing as bad words. I don't believe that anymore. We are adults, and these are the words we use to express ourselves.

The overuse of "swear" words is an atrocity to any language, but trying to pretend that they're bad, or hide them as if they don't exist is silly, childish, and futile. All the ratings boards that try to "protect" us from these words are probably doing more harm than good. By making them taboo, it feels better to say them than it would if they were just completely acceptable.

[bonethug0108]

I'm with Lewis Black on this.

There's no such thing as bad words. I don't believe that anymore. We are adults, and these are the words we use to express ourselves.

The overuse of "swear" words is an atrocity to any language, but trying to pretend that they're bad, or hide them as if they don't exist is silly, childish, and futile. All the ratings boards that try to "protect" us from these words are probably doing more harm than good. By making them taboo, it feels better to say them than it would if they were just completely acceptable.

Bravo. 100% agree. People like to pretend that kids don't hear them all the time anyway, which is complete bullocks.

Making them "naughty" only makes them more attractive options over other words.

[jjlee138]

I'm with Lewis Black on this.

There's no such thing as bad words. I don't believe that anymore. We are adults, and these are the words we use to express ourselves.

The overuse of "swear" words is an atrocity to any language, but trying to pretend that they're bad, or hide them as if they don't exist is silly, childish, and futile. All the ratings boards that try to "protect" us from these words are probably doing more harm than good. By making them taboo, it feels better to say them than it would if they were just completely acceptable.

Something this true just can't be quoted enough. QFT!

[Dartagnan64]

I'm with Lewis Black on this.

There's no such thing as bad words. I don't believe that anymore. We are adults, and these are the words we use to express ourselves.

The overuse of "swear" words is an atrocity to any language, but trying to pretend that they're bad, or hide them as if they don't exist is silly, childish, and futile. All the ratings boards that try to "protect" us from these words are probably doing more harm than good. By making them taboo, it feels better to say them than it would if they were just completely acceptable.

QFT. The joke of the ESRB is that it fusses a whole lot more about naughty language and partial nudity than it does about horrific acts of violence. Which is truly going to adversely influence a young person? A bunch of words that in the right context offer meaningful emotion to a person's communication or seeing gratuitous horrific violent acts done for nefarious reasons?

Anyway, I'm all for non-censoring of language. There are no bad words. Just bad people.

[JRSPipboy2008]

I'm curious to hear the opinions of the two folks who picked "Absolutely Not" .. unless you've already commented and I didn't realize from your post that is what you picked. No attacking viewpoints here ... I'd like to know why you voted no.

Great dialog so far though, thanks to all that have contributed to this topic.

[bonethug0108]

QFT. The joke of the ESRB is that it fusses a whole lot more about naughty language and partial nudity than it does about horrific acts of violence. Which is truly going to adversely influence a young person? A bunch of words that in the right context offer meaningful emotion to a person's communication or seeing gratuitous horrific violent acts done for nefarious reasons?

Anyway, I'm all for non-censoring of language. There are no bad words. Just bad people.

You know what, that is very good logic. Shooting somebody in a game has much more of an effect(not that anyone is going to go on a killing spree after playing CoD4 or anything) than hearing a character say, "Well f***, why can't he just patch it through?"

But we can't let them know that because they'd rate pretty much everything AO.:p

But seriously, what harm will come if kids start cursing vs. what harm will come if kids start shooting people?(again, just a what if; only people already twisted in the head would be that influenced by a game)

And I love the last line.

[dady5000]

QFT. The joke of the ESRB is that it fusses a whole lot more about naughty language and partial nudity than it does about horrific acts of violence. Which is truly going to adversely influence a young person? A bunch of words that in the right context offer meaningful emotion to a person's communication or seeing gratuitous horrific violent acts done for nefarious reasons?

Anyway, I'm all for non-censoring of language. There are no bad words. Just bad people.

Funny thing is Americans LOVE violence, but hate Sex.
While the Europeans LOVE sex (Why you'll see more nudity in European games etc.), but Hate Violence. Thus why games like Manhunt 2 were banned there, among others.

[bonethug0108]

Funny thing is Americans LOVE violence, but hate Sex.
While the Europeans LOVE sex (Why you'll see more nudity in European games etc.), but Hate Violence. Thus why games like Manhunt 2 were banned there, among others.

Haha. Very true. It isn't that all americans hate sex, but the people in control see it as a taboo much like cursing.

I think the europeans are being the smarter of the two. And I'm an american.:(

[JRSPipboy2008]

I'm an American .. I love sex ... my country is behind the times. *shudder at recalling Janet Jackson's boob flash at the Super Bowl* I'm so embarassed out how my country reacted to that. I mean, honestly, it's a boob people. It was on for what .. a second? Honestly...

But you're right .. we'd (Americans) rather have Grand Theft Auto then Boobs in a condom commercial. I'd prefer to have my cake and eat it too, thank you very much ... but getting back to lyrics for a moment...

What's better ... bleeping the word or omitting it from the song? Either way I think most kids can figure out what you're editing out.

[Vandyan]

Boo for generalizing. Im an American, I hate violence, but love sex!

[bonethug0108]

Boo for generalizing. Im an American, I hate violence, but love sex!

He wasn't generalizing. The big wigs here keep sex off of tv but allow LOTS of violenece. Seems they have it *** backwards to me.

[bonethug0108]

What's better ... bleeping the word or omitting it from the song? Either way I think most kids can figure out what you're editing out.

Editing. Bleeping often sounds bad and let's you know exactly where the "bad" word is.

But yeah, kids are not dumb(or as dumb as some like to think:p).

[Vandyan]

He wasn't generalizing. The big wigs here keep sex off of tv but allow LOTS of violenece. Seems they have it *** backwards to me.

Err, yes, he was. He said:


Funny thing is Americans LOVE violence, but hate Sex.

That is most certainly generalizing, in fact you would be hard pressed to generalize more blatantly. He didnt say the big wigs, or the people in charge, or the ESRB, he said Americans. That would be all of us. If thats not generalizing, I dont know what is.

[TakeABow]

Get the real Creep lyrics while we are at it too.

[Triple X Psycho]

I think that it should. Im a grown adult who has adult friends. I dont have to worry about the language. But for the people who have to worry about that...then why not have it to where only adult profiles can play the song. The parents should be responsible enough to make sure this is happening.

This would open more doors for great music. I would pay $15-20 for a tool cd. And I know people who would buy rock band just to dl the tool cd. Its definitely a wider market. Besides,im sure 70%-80% of our rock band sales have been to people 18 and up. Not too many kids have $170 for a game(but I know theres some).
Think of some all time classic cd's that have a major following,and how many people would pay for rock band to play there favorite cd on the game.

[bonethug0108]

Err, yes, he was. He said:



That is most certainly generalizing, in fact you would be hard pressed to generalize more blatantly. He didnt say the big wigs, or the people in charge, or the ESRB, he said Americans. That would be all of us. If thats not generalizing, I dont know what is.

I understood EXACTLY what he was talking about, and I can assure you he didn't mean it in the fashion you took it.

It would be silly to think anyone believes all americans hate sex.

He was clearly talking about what is and is not censored in this country vs. what is and is not censored in europe.

[area]

FYI, the ESRB is there for the well being of the Video Game industry. If it wasn't there, Video Games might've been banned in the early-mid 90's.

To answer your question, yes. We already have some songs with semi-controverisal words. Whore, Rape, Murder. Probably a few more.


The Parents would be great....but a good number of them are too dumb to care. So the ESRB has to do the job for them.

Dady,

This kind of statement gives me the most visceral of reactions. I cannot state how fundamentally flawed I find this kind of reasoning. All too often we seem willing to let a, seemingly innocuous, nanny state take care of all the small details because of some ill-defined 'common good'. Take responsibility for your own actions, don't let the government take over your decision making process!

I would rather be occasionally offended than constantly marginalized.

[Vandyan]

I understood EXACTLY what he was talking about, and I can assure you he didn't mean it in the fashion you took it.

Its not the way I took it, its the way he wrote it. If he didnt mean all americans hate sex and love violence, he shouldnt have said so.


It would be silly to think anyone believes all americans hate sex.

Which is why its silly to generalize and make statements like that.


He was clearly talking about what is and is not censored in this country vs. what is and is not censored in europe

I dont ever presume to know what another person is thinking. That is why we have such precise ways of communicating. You know what happens when you assume. Again, if thats not what he meant, he shouldnt have said it.

Whether or not you think you know what he was thinking, even if you are right, does not change the fact that the statement was a very broad generalization. But I digress, this is way off topic at this point. You can agree with me or you can be wrong :p, either way, no point in furthering a silly semantical debate.

[Dartagnan64]

Funny thing is Americans LOVE violence, but hate Sex.
While the Europeans LOVE sex (Why you'll see more nudity in European games etc.), but Hate Violence. Thus why games like Manhunt 2 were banned there, among others.

Well its definitely something I've noticed. The most sexually repressive societies seem to be the most violent. Look at the Gulf War. A nation of nudity censoring Christian fundamentalists vs. a nation of nudity censoring Islamic fundamentalists going at each other.

When was the last time the French or Italians were at war?

I hate generalizations but its always struck me that the more prudish a group is the more likely they are to have problems with violence. Semenal hypertension -> violence....Hmmmm.

[rockdawg-1965]

QFT. The joke of the ESRB is that it fusses a whole lot more about naughty language and partial nudity than it does about horrific acts of violence.

All too true. Anyone who played Prey (don't know if it was released on console) saw this... The evil space aliens did experiments on their human captors that included tearing them apart with much gibbage, but those captors also kept underpants on the subjects.

[bonethug0108]

You know what happens when you assume.

Ya know, I just used that line on someone else.:p

Yeah he could have and probably should have said it different, but I'm 99% positive(unless he is some crazy guy) that he meant what does and doesn't get censored, because after all this thread is about censorship(more specifically of song in rock band and we have veered off-topic; apologies).

[harper83087]

open up the flood gates...when id watch movies on my ps2 id have to enter a code for movies that were "not right for children" do the same here...make it so you can create a password to log in and get the M rated songs, just a thought dont know if its possible.

[JRSPipboy2008]

It's all good, healthy debate about an interesting topic. If there's one thing I do feel, it's that Dady wasn't out to offend me by his generalization .. and I'm okay with talking about our social differences because that's where censorship flourishes anyway.

There's really two issues here but they kind of converge at the same point. Do we let HMX decide what should be censored or do we take it into our own hands?

[Vandyan]

No, I agree I dont think he was either. I find him to be a good poster and we'd certainly be losing out if he stopped posting. I just really hate generalizing. Pet peeve of mine, thats all. My wife does it all the time and I bag on her for it too, it drives me crazy.

[bonethug0108]

No, I agree I dont think he was either. I find him to be a good poster and we'd certainly be losing out if he stopped posting. I just really hate generalizing. Pet peeve of mine, thats all. My wife does it all the time and I bag on her for it too, it drives me crazy.

I live in new orleans. Trust me, generalizing gets on my nerves too.;)

[harper83087]

another thing i forgot to mention is a lot of songs i wanna see in the game only have a few curses in em like like to put emphasis on a breakdown "aww sh!t" and "get the f*ck" up etc etc or just through out the song there is a b*tch or a f*ck or a sh*t thrown in...great songs and arent demeaning to anyone or anything but the prob wont find their way into the game because of a few words.

[reventon diablo]

yeah, if there's an amazing song out there that needs to be on RB, but has cursing, i say put it in. an explicit content option should be put in somewhere though, so you could turn the cursing on or off as needs be.

[HeadHunter67]

The dlc is rated independent of the game.
Sorry, but that's incorrect, according to the ESRB web site (http://www.esrb.org/ratings/ratings_guide.jsp):


Online-enabled games carry the notice "Online Interactions Not Rated by the ESRB." This notice warns those who intend to play the game online about possible exposure to chat (text, audio, video) or other types of user-generated content (e.g., maps, skins) that have not been considered in the ESRB rating assignment.

Unless and until you can find something on the ESRB site that says that downloadable content can be rated differently from the game, kindly refrain from stating otherwise.

That said, I personally would have no problem with the game having explicit language, with parental controls for those who don't want it. But keep in mind that any game with such content will be rated "M" regardless of such parental controls.

Do you think Rock Band would have been the runaway success it is if minors couldn't buy it, and if parents who are guided by ESRB ratings chose not to buy it for their kids due to an "M" rating?

As has been mentioned before, the ESRB is a good thing - the industry realized that self-regulation was preferable to government interference, which was the alternative. It helps concerned parents to make informed decisions about products they likely are not personally familiar with. How can that be a bad thing?


I'm with Lewis Black on this.

There's no such thing as bad words. I don't believe that anymore. We are adults, and these are the words we use to express ourselves.

The overuse of "swear" words is an atrocity to any language, but trying to pretend that they're bad, or hide them as if they don't exist is silly, childish, and futile.
The point is, some of the people playing are not adults - and the adults responsible for their upbringing make the decisions regarding content. That's what parenting is about. Concern about what one's children are exposed to isn't "childish". What's wrong with wanting children to be children, and learning when it's polite and appropriate to behave in certain ways?

If I said that anyone who believes that "there's no such thing as bad words" is an idiot (because the words I'd prefer to use to illustrate would be blocked), would that begin to make my point, or would you miss it completely and thus prove it anyhow?

[bonethug0108]

Sorry, but that's incorrect, according to the ESRB web site (http://www.esrb.org/ratings/ratings_guide.jsp):



Unless and until you can find something on the ESRB site that says that downloadable content can be rated differently from the game, kindly refrain from stating otherwise.

Where does what you quoted contradict what I said?:confused:

And go look at dlc. That all have their own ratings. I couldn't tell you the names, but a couple of games already released content different from the game's original rating.

Edit:
Remembered one. Oblivion. The game is rated "T" and it had "M" rated dlc.

[HeadHunter67]

Where does what you quoted contradict what I said?
Emphasis on "user-generated content". The phrase people mostly misuse in this argument is "Game experience may change during online play" or other labels of that nature - this applies only to content created by players (chat, skins, mods etc) and not official content from the publisher.

BTW, Oblivion is rated "M", (http://www.gamestop.com/browse/search.aspx?N=0&Ntk=TitleKeyword&Ntx=mode+matchallpartial&Ntt=oblivion)not "T"... keep trying. ;)

[bonethug0108]

Emphasis on "user-generated content". The phrase people mostly misuse in this argument is "Game experience may change during online play" or other labels of that nature - this applies only to content created by players (chat, skins, mods etc) and not official content from the publisher.

BTW, Oblivion is rated "M", (http://www.gamestop.com/browse/search.aspx?N=0&Ntk=TitleKeyword&Ntx=mode+matchallpartial&Ntt=oblivion)not "T"... keep trying. ;)

I'm staring at my disc that says otherwise. They later changed it, but it was originally "T".

Keep trying.

[HeadHunter67]

I'm staring at my disc that says otherwise. They later changed it, but it was originally "T".
Do you want to know why?

Because they added M-rated content, thus changing the overall rating of the game.

Thanks for proving my point. I'm still waiting for any evidence from ESRB that says that official online content can be rated differently and will not change the rating of the game it is for.

[bonethug0108]

Do you want to know why?

Because they added M-rated content, thus changing the overall rating of the game.

Thanks for proving my point. I'm still waiting for any evidence from ESRB that says that official online content can be rated differently and will not change the rating of the game it is for.

And where is this info? Never heard about that before.

[HeadHunter67]

Did you click on the link? Why do you think the rating changed? Did they redefine what constitutes "Mature" content? (No.) So something must be absent from the "T" version you claim to have, compared to the "M" version that's sold in stores.

Regardless, theories don't change ESRB policy - so if you can show me something from ESRB that indicates that online content is not subject to their ratings process (http://www.esrb.org/ratings/ratings_process.jsp), I'll gladly reconsider my point and concede to your original statement.

[JRSPipboy2008]

I'm fairly certain that the game itself is still under ESRB standards for DLC... just because it can be played online does not change the fact that it can also be played OFFLINE ... which is where it would fall under standard.

[DSOTM]

if harmonix released porn for downloadable content would you think itd still be rated t?

[jeccaneko]

As an adult with no children, I don't give a damn about the ESRB personally. Actually, my parents didn't care what ESRB rated games I played when I was a kid. My parents didn't bat an eye during the whole Mortal Kombat fatalities and blood complaints days.

However, I have adult co-workers who know nothing about video games and rely on ESRB ratings to figure out what might be appropriate for their child. I personally tell them that ESRB ratings are not a good measuring stick. The ESRB doesn't even really play the games they're rating, so games all the time get rated higher or lower than they should be.

I think they should be able to have uncensored content in Rock Band. Parents should make the decision on whether their children can play certain songs, just like parents gotta make that decision on whether their children can listen to certain kinds of music. Just because a CD doesn't say explicit lyrics doesn't mean it doesn't have inappropriate lyrics. "I wanna get in your pants" or "I want to have sex with you" isn't explicit in the way that it's not "bad words", but that can be something parents don't want their kids listening to and singing along to.

[barnacleman11]

YES! I want Squeeze Me Macaroni by Mr. Bungle!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nx9oaA1A50M
The Girls Of Porn would be nice too:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4lN0_FD84E4&feature=related

[barnacleman11]

So much good music out there that could be in RB, it would be a shame to miss out on all of it just because of some cursing.

[Tiberiouslb]

I think the main problem with the ESRB is it has tended to cater too much to the overzealous politicians who like to jump on video games. There are other problems with inconsistent ratings, but the big reactions seem to always involve politicians and the media.

As for me I'll be one of the few who votes that I'd rather not. Songwriting 101 would teach any songwriter that foul language hurts the marketability of a song. I think so many songwriters in rock have used excessive foul language just to try to be "harder", more "rebellious", and increase the shock value. None of those things equate to better music. Most of the foulest language is in the more modern songs, classic rock usually was more about great music than shock value. It is probably no coincidence that the modern vocabulary the average American uses is only like 500 words. Find a better way to say it. (Note I'm referring mostly to language rather than drug references, and certain language gets the M rating way faster and more clearly than any reference)

Now I'm a metal fan, and I do use foul language myself, but only in certain situations. However there are very few songs that I think are truly great that drop any language worse than what the teen rating would allow. I think there are so many great songs across all genres that have avoided foul language, that Harmonix could put out great DLC until the end of time without breaking the teen rating level.

For example I love Pantera, and F***ing Hostile is a great song, but I would rather have Cemetary Gates. It is strange how Pantera really didn't cuss much in Cowboys from Hell, which I think is their best, most artistic, and most musical album, and then they get big and cuss left and right.

Some artists like NiN just don't leave many options, but I am not going to blame Harmonix or the ESRB for Trent Reznor's issues.

You could make an extremely long list of bands that generally avoid the worst swear words in their albums. Nearly every band from before the 90's could be on that list.
Even most bands that couldn't be on the list have material that would still make the cut.

[Tiberiouslb]

I'm staring at my disc that says otherwise. They later changed it, but it was originally "T".

Keep trying.

Oblivion's rating change had nothing to do with DLC or online content, it was based on textures and content found on the original disc that would only be seen if the game was hacked. Since it was on the original disc the rating was changed. (The Horse Armor was sooo nasty, it wasn't fit for kids eyes. lol)

I don't feel like searching for it but a Harmonix or MTV representative already mentioned it was possible to have DLC rated differently.

[Vandyan]

I think the main problem with the ESRB is it has tended to cater too much to the overzealous politicians who like to jump on video games. There are other problems with inconsistent ratings, but the big reactions seem to always involve politicians and the media.

Unfortunately that is true, the problem is that its true because they dont have much choice. The whole reason the ESRB was created was to keep politicians from legislating against, or even banning, violent and mature video games. If they dont appease those people, they will be right back in that boat with threats of legislation.

I agree wholeheartedly with the rest of your post. I voted no as well, even though I am an adult, and use foul language probably more than I should. While I will teach my baby girl that the words themselves arent bad as has been mentioned above, but whats important is to respect other people and not use those words around people who are bothered by them, I feel far too many people would end up missing out on this great game and some of the amazing music it is reintroducing if it had to be modified to an M game. Its just not worth that tradeoff for a few cuss words.

[Soja]

I say add unedited versions of songs and slap the typical "Explicit Content" label on the song.

Also, make use of the X360 and PS3's parental controls.

[bonethug0108]

Oblivion's rating change had nothing to do with DLC or online content, it was based on textures and content found on the original disc that would only be seen if the game was hacked. Since it was on the original disc the rating was changed. (The Horse Armor was sooo nasty, it wasn't fit for kids eyes. lol)

I don't feel like searching for it but a Harmonix or MTV representative already mentioned it was possible to have DLC rated differently.

See, I heard some of the same stuff but I didn't want to argue because I don't have links or anything to "prove it".

From EVERYTHING I've heard, dlc is rated independently of the game.

I also read the article you are referring to where harmonix said they would explore "M" rated material.

Thank you. I knew I wasn't going crazy.:p

[Exayle]

I have no problems with the bits Harmonix censors in their songs, but I also don't see the harm in utilizing the parental controls for Explicit DLC. Not that it's vital, but if it opened up more opportunities for DLC, I'd be all for it.

[Michura]

I am 29 with no kids and I would rather the songs be censored. Regardless of what my perceptions are about such words, it has no bearing on what society in general believes.

If I was a parent, I would not want my child speaking such words. Not only because I have a problem with them, but because I don't want my child to get into trouble from people who do.

I agree in that being so careful about such words make them more appealing. If we didn't make such a big deal out of them, then they would likely just regard them as any other word. But the reality is, that those words are a big deal. I make decisions based on how the world is, not how it should be.

Also, there are many words that are no longer considered as big a deal, such as as$. But does it mean I would want a 4-year old using it? No. There are many terms I wouldn't want my child learning at that age. I want my child to speak properly well before he or she uses curses and slangs.

As far as ESRB goes, I agree with it. I thought it was stupid when I was 17 but I agree with it now having grown up. At the very least, it tells parents what to expect from a game or at least if it should looked into further.

I agree that there are idiot parents out there who are negligent about what their kids do. However, there are also good parents out there who could use a little extra help.

And really, what harm does it really do to omit these words? Their absence allows more people to enjoy this great game. To me the benefits of censorship far outweighs the drawbacks.

[Soja]

In an ideal world, both the Edited and Explicit tracks would be offered as well.

Ultimate flexibility.

[rifteroftime]

^^^I like that idea, but it probably won't happen.

I voted no purely for the fact that I would rather not have them come up if I am playing with my younger brother or anyone else who is too young for it. Outside of metal, most songs don't usually bust out any curses anyways.

[Pimpernickel]

One of the most ridiculous things I've heard in my life is that there are "bad words" and somehow the hearing of said "bad words" harms people. NEEE!

[ZortheConqueror]

The point is, some of the people playing are not adults - and the adults responsible for their upbringing make the decisions regarding content. That's what parenting is about. Concern about what one's children are exposed to isn't "childish". What's wrong with wanting children to be children, and learning when it's polite and appropriate to behave in certain ways?

If I said that anyone who believes that "there's no such thing as bad words" is an idiot (because the words I'd prefer to use to illustrate would be blocked), would that begin to make my point, or would you miss it completely and thus prove it anyhow?


If you had quoted the rest of what I said, rather than just what you wanted to attack, you'd have seen a (partial) answer to your question. Making those words taboo just makes them more appealing to people when they learn of them.

And I'm not in disagreement that it seems wrong to have little children learning swear words. But just because young kids aren't mature enough to really understand the point of these words doesn't make them "bad" words. I'm perfectly okay with warnings that these words will be in the product, but it's entirely up to the parents to decide if they want their children hearing these words in these situations.

And lets face, they're going to hear the words anyway. And teaching them why these words are wrong as opposed to just trying to completely cut them off from all exposure to the words would be far more effective. Especially since kids, particularly once they reach their teenage years, develop an immense fondness for doing that which their parents have told them is just plain wrong to do without having given them good reasons to why these things are wrong.

[Soja]

There's way more cursing in Punk and Emo than there is in Metal. Outside of Death, Thrash, and Black Metal, I don't think there's much cursing in Metal as a whole.

[rifteroftime]

If that was directed at me, I wouldn't know, as I don't listen to emo/punk that often. I was only using metal as an example because it has a reputation for gruesome/offensive lyrics. I apologize for the mistake. I'll make sure to do some sleuthing before I bust out a generalization like that next time.

[Rock_Starman]

It'll be heard the second you're playing online anyway so I fail to see what difference it would make from a negative standpoint. While it has a positive one for something like say,Man in the Box by Alice in Chains wich just doesn't feel right with it's radio edit.

[HeadHunter67]

Most of the foulest language is in the more modern songs, classic rock usually was more about great music than shock value.

You could make an extremely long list of bands that generally avoid the worst swear words in their albums. Nearly every band from before the 90's could be on that list.
Even most bands that couldn't be on the list have material that would still make the cut.
That's worth noting. The "edited" songs in the game are generally not the classic rock songs. We can't really know whether that was because publishers at the time restricted content more closely (a possibility) or because of a conscious and deliberate choice by the songwriters - regardless, good songs without profanity were written.


Some artists like NiN just don't leave many options, but I am not going to blame Harmonix or the ESRB for Trent Reznor's issues.
Hehe, funny you should mention that. When I saw that "Hand That Feeds" was in the game I actually said "WOW! They found the one NIN song where very other word isn't 'f**k'!" :D


Oblivion's rating change had nothing to do with DLC or online content, it was based on textures and content found on the original disc that would only be seen if the game was hacked. Since it was on the original disc the rating was changed.
Thank you - I was wondering about the specific reason. That's why any game with explicit content, even if parental controls will filter it, will have an "M" rating.

But that doesn't let bonethug off the hook - I'm still waiting for him to substantiate his claim that official, online DLC can be rated differently.


I don't feel like searching for it but a Harmonix or MTV representative already mentioned it was possible to have DLC rated differently.
It was Alex Rigopolous from HMX - sadly, he may have been as mistaken as bonethug, because there's nothing in the ESRB information to support that. I believe that's a common misconception but I've yet to see any proof of it in action.

[ForgottenHero]

There was no option for what I believe should be on the game. It may have been pointed out already as I have not read the 7 pages of this thread, but I am happy with the way the game handles profanity now.

If you want it there you can sing it. It also doesn't mean, though, that we can't have songs with profanity, it just means we have to edit it.

[GarryMar]

I voted "Yes, let the flood gates open" not because i want swear words in the game just for a chance to say some naughty words, but because i would rather have the songs presented to us in the original intended media. you wouldn't remove or simplify a guitar solo because it may be to tricky and cause tendon injury would you? i think not.

I'd just rather be playing along to the song i know, not an edited version.

[JRSPipboy2008]

I was thinking that there were two features that HMX could impliment that could help with future songs with adult content or lyrics:

1 - Have the ability to specifically select which DLC appears in "random" playlists or on the quick play selection screen for people who don't want specific songs to show up when playing with a minor. They would be able to turn back on those songs later when they are playing with adults.

2 - Provide edited and unedited versions of the song for download. A parent using their XBox Parental controls would then be able to restrict the downloading of the explicit content material.

I agree with the several posters who mentioned that there are a lot of songs out there that do not require explicit lyrics to be good. However, there's other music I happen to like with strong language that I would still enjoy playing/singing. I like Limp Bizkit, for example. Good luck seeing them in RB :)

[kmart890]

open up the flood gates...when id watch movies on my ps2 id have to enter a code for movies that were "not right for children" do the same here...make it so you can create a password to log in and get the M rated songs, just a thought dont know if its possible.

Well the Xbox has parental control features blocking out certain game and movie ratings from being played. And I'm sure there is a feature like that for the DLC, so let the parents enable that to not let any M rated songs download and things should work out.

It isn't a video games' fault if a child learns something that the parent should be working to block out.

[thrdeye]

Not allowing any "bad" words in this game is sort of ridiculous. Any kid with a PS3 on a voice chat enabled game will hear **** **** damn **** ***** ***** cocksucker, etc. Parents wont hear it because it's coming through the headset.

I think the overall theme of a song should be considered, though. I mean, do we really need "I hate therefore I am. God Damn." In this game? No. I love the song, but no place for it in this game, IMO.

I HATE and I don't use that term lightly, when a song is played on the radio and you hear fu(edit). Yeah, like neither I or my kid knew what the guy said there.

umm edit: pretty amazed at what gets by the swear filter.

[Tiberiouslb]

I HATE and I don't use that term lightly, when a song is played on the radio and you hear fu(edit). Yeah, like neither I or my kid knew what the guy said there.


Yeah thats one of the stupidest things ever. When it blatantly obvious what word is having the end cut off a bit.

[DeusTrinitas]

The problem with including songs that use strong language is the same problem as using strong language in general:

Sometimes an obscenity/profanity can get a certain point across with more force than using a different, unoffensive word. However, more often than not, the people who use strong language regularly and indiscriminately use it because they are too unintelligent, too lazy, or both to learn new words and broaden their vocabularies with language that enhances their ability to convey meaningful messages.

Hence, I would say, if the language in a song fits the first category, keep it in. If the language in a song fits the second category (a la Limp Bizkit, for example), then scrap either the language or the whole song altogether.

*Edit*
Here's a Limp Bizkit example for you: "Nookie" Even the lyrics to the chorus are idiotic:
"I did it all for the nookie, the nookie,
So you can take that cookie, and stick it up your...stick it up your...stick it up your..."

That pretty much shows Fred Durst's and his band members' collective intelligence right there.

Fred Durst: "Hmmm...what rhymes with Nookie? Ooh! Cookie! Cookie rhymes with Nookie!"
Band Member: "Saying cookie in a song like this isn't cool."
Fred Durst: "Then let's say 'so you can take that cookie and stick it up your yeah!'"
Band Member: "Now that's ****in' RAWK!"

[Colt_Steele]

The ESRB cannot rate what some jerk says to kids over a headset. They can, however, edit what's in the game the kids are playing where the other person is spewing colorful dialogue. This is just CYA from a legal standpoint, everyone knows it's a jungle out there for online users regardless of age or background. If the kid knows not to use the language out of respect then it's a non-issue. I knew as a child not to repeat the things I heard of that nature, because I respected the wishes(and the back of the hand)of the person who told me not to use them.

It's only offensive if you allow it to be.

[JRSPipboy2008]

Not allowing any "bad" words in this game is sort of ridiculous. Any kid with a PS3 on a voice chat enabled game will hear **** **** damn **** {see original post} ***** {see original post}, etc.

I find it very interesting the words you chose NOT to censor. However, I didn't feel it was appropriate to exactly quote you so I edited it. This isn't a criticism though ... it's just interesting because we put a different value judgement on "bad" language. I use the words I've censored but I felt uncomfortable seeing them here because of the context.

I could see where it becomes easier to just censor everything then to take personal responsibility for content. Using NIN as an example, Trent Reznor already had to deal with the use of his language in his music and the effects it has on listeners and the music loving community at large. Yet we feel the need to take it upon ourselves to further dilute the material when we share it. It's a never ending cycle of censorship ... where do you end it?

But I do totally see where it's easier to just censor and not deal with the hassle of who should or shouldn't, who could or couldn't listen to a track. In the end it's all kind of silly.

[thrdeye]

I find it very interesting the words you chose NOT to censor. However, I didn't feel it was appropriate to exactly quote you so I edited it. This isn't a criticism though ... it's just interesting because we put a different value judgement on "bad" language. I use the words I've censored but I felt uncomfortable seeing them here because of the context.


Hey man, I didn't do that. That is the built-in swear filter in the forum software.

I was surprised what was edited and what wasn't, myself.

[JRSPipboy2008]

How do you miss putting the "C" word in your censor list, lol! And I'm pretty sure very few people refer to felines as ***** cats anymore. But then, it's probably because otherwise no one would be able to discuss the ***** Cat Dolls ... um, but who would want to?