Question: Can rhythm game players be considered "musicians?"

[Redebo]

As I gear up for the RB release, my wife sees me devouring information, watching trailers and game play videos by the 100's and of course posting on the forums, so she asks me, "You really think that you're in a rock band don't you?"

I'm kinda stuck as to how I should reply. Do I say, "well I'm going to be in a VIRTUAL rock band so bugger off!"

Which brings me to the question: Can us rhythm gamers who do not play actual instruments be considered "musicians" as we faithfully recreate song after song made by other artists? Before you answer, think about people like Timbaland, or bands like the Gorillaz, or Beck. By and large their material wasn't "played" by them, just sampled, tweaked, looped, etc. Their base material was created by other musicians, but you would be hard pressed not to call them musicians in their own right.

So, what are your thoughts Rockers, Psuedo-rockers, and Virtual Rockers?

[MrMet2087]

are people who play madden or mlb 2k7 and are really good considered athletes? no, the only way u are a real musician is if you play a real instrument, not a guitar with 5 buttons, or a drum set that doesnt really make any real noises.

[Bakkster_Man]

are people who play madden or mlb 2k7 and are really good considered athletes? no, the only way u are a real musician is if you play a real instrument, not a guitar with 5 buttons, or a drum set that doesnt really make any real noises.

Exactly.

I wouldn't even consider somebody who only knows how to play 45 songs note-for-note on a real instrument a musician. To earn that title you really need to know something about, you know, music; you can't just be a trained monkey, you need to be an artist.

And as far as those artists you mentioned:
Gorillaz are just an animated front for a real musician. He still composes all the music and writes the lyrics. Also, Beck plays most of his own instruments, with only looped accompaniment on occasion. For example the bass line in Sexx Laws is most definitely played by a real person (his producer, actually). Again, they write and compose their own music, which makes them musicians.

[Coldplayer]

Absolutly agree. Playing Rockband has nothing do to with playing in a real band.

And you definitely can't compair a rythm game player with Timbaland or the Gorillaz. Those people can play instruments, they can sing, they know music technique and everything.

You, my friend, are just a gamer who likes music.

[espher]

are people who play madden or mlb 2k7 and are really good considered athletes?

Cyberathletes, yes, but that traditionally applies towards games that actually require a little bit of conditioning like RTS and FPS games. ;)

But I digress.~

[Xzyliac]

Now wait what about Amplitude and Frequency? Each gave the tools to create music.

I mean something as diverse and replicable as music cannot fairly be compared to a specific sport with very specific rules and roles. Two extremely differen worlds.

[bounchfx]

no, they are absolutely not. they are gamers or if you want to be more specific... 'rhythm gamers'

[xenopherus]

It might be grasping at straws, but I guess the drums are supposed to be so accurate that you can learn to play for real. So if you're insanely good in the game and then graduate to actual drums and thrash on them, then maybe... Also, if you're an awesome singer that'd work too. Not all great singers are great songwriters, so as long as you're good at improvising and have good tone and pitch, that might count as being "a rhythm game artist"... loosely so perhaps.

[Bakkster_Man]

It might be grasping at straws, but I guess the drums are supposed to be so accurate that you can learn to play for real. So if you're insanely good in the game and then graduate to actual drums and thrash on them, then maybe... Also, if you're an awesome singer that'd work too. Not all great singers are great songwriters, so as long as you're good at improvising and have good tone and pitch, that might count as being "a rhythm game artist"... loosely so perhaps.

I disagree. The drum game still won't teach you volume control. Either you hit the pad or not. In real life, how hard you hit is a huge part of playing drums. Yes, you will learn the fundamentals, but you still aren't a drummer (unless you already are a drummer, in which case you don't cease to be).

Same with vocals. You can be in tune and singing the right words, but you could still be a piss-poor singer. You could have an overly nasal/shrieking voice that sounds horrible, no matter how in tune it is. Again, you've learned to sing on pitch, but not how to sing well.

[goodbyebluesky]

What I say..is that on the guitar, it takes skill and rhythm to perfect a song on expert.

On drums, it will take multi-tasking, and on expert I can't imagine right now.

Bass...well...yes there are very hard parts to it in the game.

and vocals, it will take skill to read the words (hah)

So....what I consider us as...virtual musicians. hows that sound?

[Bakkster_Man]

So....what I consider us as...virtual musicians. hows that sound?

I guess I don't find many other games where you get some sort of title for playing them. I'm not a virtual athlete because I play Madden, a virtual driver because I play Forza, or a virtual warrior because I play Halo. I'm a gamer. I don't see why playing RB or GH makes you any different.

[Xzyliac]

So....what I consider us as...virtual musicians. hows that sound?

I have to agree. We're Virtual Musicians. To say there is NO component in the game related to musical skill is a lie.

I mean we consider Air Guitarist legit, well, Air Guitarist and that takes some effing skills.

[Xzyliac]

I guess I don't find many other games where you get some sort of title for playing them. I'm not a virtual athlete because I play Madden, a virtual driver because I play Forza, or a virtual warrior because I play Halo. I'm a gamer. I don't see why playing RB or GH makes you any different.

In each of those games you're tethered to a gamepad with little to no even slight attempt at capturing the feel of whatever should be at your disposal. So of course you're no athlete.

[Kang_Zircon]

I think the easiest way to look at this is to compare the one role in the game that most directly translates to real life performaces: singing.

In the game when you sing you have to match the changes in picth and timing as closely to the original as possible. That's the goal in order to succeed in the game, anyway.

In reality, performing as a musician, this isn't the case. Think about most cover songs you hear performed - each person tends to add their own, individual style to the song when they perform it.

Trying to mimic the original isn't innovative or original - it's just copying. Sure it takes talent to do so, but is that artistic? Can you really consider yourself a musician if you only strive to copy others?

Rock Band supposedly has jam sessions and freestlye portions where you can do your own thing, but this is still really limited. I think the game would have to allow one the freedom to create and develop their own music or style in order to really consider the players musicians.

[Redebo]

I disagree. The drum game still won't teach you volume control. Either you hit the pad or not. In real life, how hard you hit is a huge part of playing drums. Yes, you will learn the fundamentals, but you still aren't a drummer (unless you already are a drummer, in which case you don't cease to be).

Same with vocals. You can be in tune and singing the right words, but you could still be a piss-poor singer. You could have an overly nasal/shrieking voice that sounds horrible, no matter how in tune it is. Again, you've learned to sing on pitch, but not how to sing well.

You have an interesting take on this topic. I didn't realize that one had to be "good" at singing or "good" at playing an instrument to be classified as a musician. I thought that I might be able to pick up a cheap drum kit, and bang out a few licks that I arranged and that would make me a musician. I guess that I've got to be good huh.

Oh by the way, what band are you in? I want to make sure that you're good enough before I start thinking of you as a musician ;)

[Redebo]

I think the easiest way to look at this is to compare the one role in the game that most directly translates to real life performaces: singing.

In the game when you sing you have to match the changes in picth and timing as closely to the original as possible. That's the goal in order to succeed in the game, anyway.

In reality, performing as a musician, this isn't the case. Think about most cover songs you hear performed - each person tends to add their own, individual style to the song when they perform it.

Trying to mimic the original isn't innovative or original - it's just copying. Sure it takes talent to do so, but is that artistic? Can you really consider yourself a musician if you only strive to copy others?

Rock Band supposedly has jam sessions and freestlye portions where you can do your own thing, but this is still really limited. I think the game would have to allow one the freedom to create and develop their own music or style in order to really consider the players musicians.

Ahhh see, now you've touched on something. In essence, you're saying that if our 5 button guitar controllers allowed us to CREATE music, much like an 88 key piano, then perhaps we could be musicians. I like the thought of this. In fact if we take that at face value and apply it to the jam/freestyle sessions, then all we are really discussing is the "length of time" or "volume of new material" that you compose to designate you as a musician.

A counterpoint to your singer analogy: What about all of the tribute/cover bands who dutifully try to recreate the pitch and tone of the original band's music? Are they musicians because according to the analogy, they are not.

[parastroke7]

In context of Rock Band :

If you play guitar really well, that doesn't make you a guitarist, so no. Not a musician.

If you can sing decently, then somewhat. Technically you ARE singing, so sure.

If you can handle drums on expert, then you possess the fundamental understanding of how drumming works. If you can get at least a 95% on an Expert drum part, then you might as well consider yourself a musician.

That's how I look at it. Some yes and some no.

[Redebo]

In each of those games you're tethered to a gamepad with little to no even slight attempt at capturing the feel of whatever should be at your disposal. So of course you're no athlete.

Absolutely. I don't see AT ALL how being the front man in a RB band is any different then being the front man in a cover band. Like not one difference. Well except that on the master tracks, the music is likely to be better then what a hack group of live musicians could belt out ;)

[Kang_Zircon]

In fact if we take that at face value and apply it to the jam/freestyle sessions, then all we are really discussing is the "length of time" or "volume of new material" that you compose to designate you as a musician.

You have a good point there.


A counterpoint to your singer analogy: What about all of the tribute/cover bands who dutifully try to recreate the pitch and tone of the original band's music? Are they musicians because according to the analogy, they are not.

That's a debate I wouldn't know how to begin.

[battle_axe_of_doom]

i consider this the most moronic question in the history of all questions

[Redebo]

i consider this the most moronic question in the history of all questions

Don't be such a downer! Tell me why you consider the question moronic!

[dlisapussy]

are people who play madden or mlb 2k7 and are really good considered athletes? no, the only way u are a real musician is if you play a real instrument, not a guitar with 5 buttons, or a drum set that doesnt really make any real noises.

damn straight

[Supergeek]

Which brings me to the question: Can us rhythm gamers who do not play actual instruments be considered "musicians" as we faithfully recreate song after song made by other artists?

No.

We would need 6 strum bars and 200 or so fret buttons with levels of sensitivity, and it would still be easier than a real guitar.

Imitation is not art. Creativity is art. Music is art. Playing a videogame is reflexes.

[battle_axe_of_doom]

Don't be such a downer! Tell me why you consider the question moronic!

because you're playing a ****ing video game, you're not out there making music or paying tributes to bands you like by playing actual instruments in front of a crowd. i'm not saying playing GH and RB don't require skill, but its nothing compared to what real musicians need to have before going out there (unless you're some ****ty trendo emo band then all you need is a good hair stylist, and knowledge of power chords)

[Kang_Zircon]

No.

We would need 6 strum bars and 200 or so fret buttons with levels of sensitivity, and it would still be easier than a real guitar.

Imitation is not art. Creativity is art. Music is art. Playing a videogame is reflexes.

Technically, that argument only means that playing Rock Band doesn't make you a guitar player.

If you consider the peripherals of the game tools, or instruments, in their own right AND had the freedom to create music with them, then yes, you could consider yourself a musician.

I just don't think the necessary freedom is there yet.

[Bakkster_Man]

You have an interesting take on this topic. I didn't realize that one had to be "good" at singing or "good" at playing an instrument to be classified as a musician. I thought that I might be able to pick up a cheap drum kit, and bang out a few licks that I arranged and that would make me a musician. I guess that I've got to be good huh.

Oh by the way, what band are you in? I want to make sure that you're good enough before I start thinking of you as a musician ;)

Well, not every percussionist is a musician. Otherwise anyone who ever hit something would be a musician. I also know singer who I wouldn't consider musicians. Why? They can't read music, have no knowledge of music theory, and just do what their told. They're great singers, just not musicians.

I don't think you have to be "good" to be a musician, but you do need some talent and creativity. Otherwise you're just an instrumentalist.

And my old band (http://music.download.com/tfnm/3600-8592_32-100140522.html) (you can download all our songs for free).


In each of those games you're tethered to a gamepad with little to no even slight attempt at capturing the feel of whatever should be at your disposal. So of course you're no athlete.

Ever played a racing game with a wheel, pedals, and shifters? My friend (who does race a factory stock IRL) has a setup with two force feedback motors in the wheel, pneumatic resistance on the brake pedal, and 5-way shifter. It's about as close to the drivers seat as you can get, and certainly more realistic than RB or GH. I still don't consider myself a race-car driver, though, since I have yet to actually race.


Imitation is not art. Creativity is art. Music is art. Playing a videogame is reflexes.

Exactly: musicians are artists. Gamers are gamers. There's nothing wrong with that, but don't try to make it more than it is.

[Supergeek]

Technically, that argument only means that playing Rock Band doesn't make you a guitar player.

If you consider the peripherals of the game tools, or instruments, in their own right AND had the freedom to create music with them, then yes, you could consider yourself a musician.

I just don't think the necessary freedom is there yet.
In keeping with the spirit of my post regarding the flexibility of the guitar controller, we basically agree. Drums are considered a musical instrument, even though they are pretty limited in scope. I can see the possibility of someone hooking up the RB drum set to their PC and recording drum tracks for use in real music.

[Xzyliac]

Damn I would love for Harmonix to jump into this.

[MrMet2087]

i consider this the most moronic question in the history of all questions


lol i was gonna take that approach at first but i decided to be nice about it lol

[Redebo]

because you're playing a ****ing video game, you're not out there making music or paying tributes to bands you like by playing actual instruments in front of a crowd. i'm not saying playing GH and RB don't require skill, but its nothing compared to what real musicians need to have before going out there (unless you're some ****ty trendo emo band then all you need is a good hair stylist, and knowledge of power chords)

Ok, I"m with you and I understand what you are saying, but by your own standards, does that make a musician that doesn't go out and play in front of someone "not a musician?" What about all of those studio artists that create scores for commericals or just for their own enjoyment? Are they not musicians? By your definition, they may not be!

[Redebo]

Damn I would love for Harmonix to jump into this.

Glad to have posed a stimulating question :)

[battle_axe_of_doom]

Ok, I"m with you and I understand what you are saying, but by your own standards, does that make a musician that doesn't go out and play in front of someone "not a musician?" What about all of those studio artists that create scores for commericals or just for their own enjoyment? Are they not musicians? By your definition, they may not be!

i was just saying that as an example. the beatles didn't perform live for like the last 5 years or whatever in their career, but still we're just playing a video game here. there's no "real" talent (if there is a definitive answer for talent) in playing a game. like someone said we're just gamers playing a badass game that just so happens to "recreate" music

[Redebo]

Well, not every percussionist is a musician. Otherwise anyone who ever hit something would be a musician. I also know singer who I wouldn't consider musicians. Why? They can't read music, have no knowledge of music theory, and just do what their told. They're great singers, just not musicians.

I don't think you have to be "good" to be a musician, but you do need some talent and creativity. Otherwise you're just an instrumentalist.

Ok, I get this point and I like it from your viewpoint. I could live with the term instrumentailist or even "singer" if it please the jury! Perhaps my definition of what a musician is needs to be narrowed...


Ever played a racing game with a wheel, pedals, and shifters? My friend (who does race a factory stock IRL) has a setup with two force feedback motors in the wheel, pneumatic resistance on the brake pedal, and 5-way shifter. It's about as close to the drivers seat as you can get, and certainly more realistic than RB or GH. I still don't consider myself a race-car driver, though, since I have yet to actually race.

In the context of a racing game, I agree with you, but in RB, you're actually SINGING and, insofar as the drums are concerned, you're banging on the pads to make an electrical impulse that tranlates into a sound. That's pretty much exactly how an electronic drum machine works is it not? When I play the drums on RB, I don't intend on "lightly tapping the pads." I'm going to hit them hard when the song requires that I do.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not considering myself as a musician, but I would like to create a title, perhaps "Virtual Performer" that fits a person like who aren't as musically gifted as the real musicians out there but still feel the raw passion in music and strive to convey feeling through it. Gamer doesn't seem to cut it...

[Redebo]

i was just saying that as an example. the beatles didn't perform live for like the last 5 years or whatever in their career, but still we're just playing a video game here. there's no "real" talent (if there is a definitive answer for talent) in playing a game. like someone said we're just gamers playing a badass game that just so happens to "recreate" music

Ok cool. Let me ask you this then. At what point does a person say that they are a singer? Do you have to have a band? Do you have to be known as a star at your local karaoke night? Do you have to write songs and sing them?

[_GABO_]

Lots of people, teachers mainly, will say "There is no such thing as a stupid/dumb question." I, however, entirely disagree; there are lots of dumb questions out there. This is on the lesser end of dumb questions, but really now..

I (and seemingly many others on the forums) can consider myself (and themselves) a musician because I play guitar and bass, and I used to play piano. If I didn't do any of those things and still played the Guitar Hero games, I would in no way consider myself anywhere near a musician.

Like Coldplayer said previously,

Playing Rockband has nothing do to with playing in a real band.

You, my friend, are just a gamer who likes music.

[Cr1ckt]

There are many different ways to define "music" or "musician" or (to address the topic on a broader scale) "art." When I try to define music (or any type of art), I focus on the context, and more specifically, the intent of the alleged "artist". Is the person creating the music doing so to move or entertain others? Are they trying to express something with the music they are creating? Or do they have a completely separate motive (such as getting a high score)?
I have played, arranged, and composed many different types of music, on different instruments (including my voice), and I have religiously played the Guitar Hero games. Playing a real guitar, or a saxophone, or drum set isn't mechanically different than hitting the buttons on the guitar controller (although the real instruments are certainly more complex.) Playing rhythms on a real instrument is more complicated than playing the simplified chords on the GH controller, but in the end, we are doing the same thing. We are manipulating levers, buttons or strings to trigger the sound we desire. I don't think it is sound to deny the status of musician to GH and RB players on the basis that their instrument is simpler. I would instead look to the motive behind the action.
Take for example, a guitarist playing scales. If the execution of the scales is a matter of exercise, then I would not classify this particular instance as an example of music. The guitarist is playing the scales to get better, not to move, entertain, or express. However, if those scales are arranged specifically, in the context of a song, to create a desired aural effect, then they would fall under the domain of music.
Similarly, if several people play a song on Rock Band to entertain a crowd, on what level are they not musicians? They are using their skills to entertain. There are plenty of options in Rock band (such as the drum fill sections, the improvisation sections, and the optional guitar effects) that allow the players to express themselves. I believe that the physical act of playing a fake instrument to produce sound is fundamentally and philosohpically the same as playing a real instrument to produce sound, no matter what differences in complexity or difficulty may exist between the two. If the crowd and the players both are moved by the experience of the game, then I would be hard-pressed to say that, on some level, these players are musicians.
Of course, there still is the argument that originality is paramount to musicianship. This statement would deny status to both GH/RB players and bands that play strictly covers. It would also call into question the musicianship of artists like Jascha Heifetz. For the uninitiated, Heifetz was one of the most accomplished virtuoso violinists of all time. His technique was nearly perfect. He could play anything. Yet, many people prefer other violinists because they put much more emotion into their playing. Under the standard set forth, wouldn't Heifetz be denied musician status because he was simply playing the notes written on the page by someone else? Most people would find the argument that Heifetz was not a true musician to be silly. I think it proves that a musician does not need to conceive his/her own music. Simply, a musician must bring the music into being with the intent of moving the audience in some way. If one can do that, then one is a musician. Therefore, I would submit that GH and especially RB players can, under the right circumstances, indeed be musicians.
Of course, I would need to make one final concession. Someone earlier brought up the point that some people are quibbling over the fact that someone playing expert on GH cannot be considered to be operating on the same level as a professional guitarist. Well...No ****. There are many different levels of musicianship. I would define a GH or RB player with no real musical knowledge as an amateur musician, at best. I can five star all the GH songs on expert, but I would never consider myself to be on par with Jimmy Page. I can barely play the opening bars to Stairway to Heaven, for Christ's sake. However, I it is a mistake to assume that any given level of skill is necessary to be a musician (although skill usually attributes to SUCCESS). As long as the intent is in the right place, then you are, in my book, a musician.

[Eman311]

^ Totally not worth reading

I think when it comes to the guitar playing in games like guitar hero NO. It's just way too far off from the actual thing. An expert player at GH can't just go pick up a regular guitar and expect to play.

Now as for the rock band drums I think yes. That takes actual skill as a drummer, and I think people who eventually play expert drums could go learn regular drums with relative ease.

[Cr1ckt]

Did you even read any of it?

I think you're missing the point. Whether or not one can pick up a guitar and play after playing guitar hero is not the issue. There are many different ways of making music, some of which don't even require physically playing an instrument, and I think it is foolish to divert the argument to whether or not playing RB is like being in a Rock Band.

I hope we all understand that there are subtleties to playing a real instrument that cannot even be emulated on the game. My point was that music, as an art form, is about moving people through sound. And from what I've seen of the extravagant Rock Band displays at places like PAX, Harmonix's new game can indeed achieve that goal.

[tf5_bassist]

Rock Band will help you become a better singer.

Rock Band will help you become a better drummer.

Rock Band will help you become a stronger guitarist/bassist due to rhythm exercising and pure mechanical practice.

Rock Band will NOT teach you to play guitar/bass.

Rock Band will NOT teach you how to write songs.

Rock Band will NOT teach you music theory.

Rock Band will NOT get you groupies.

my quickly thought of definition:
musician: one who expresses or displays some level of technical and/or musical proficiency on a real musical instrument, voice, or compositions.

or, to take from a real dictionary (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/musician):

mu·si·cian [myoo-zish-uhn]
?noun
1. a person who makes music a profession, esp. as a performer of music.
2. any person, whether professional or not, skilled in music.

check the link, there's no mention of video games lol... However, with the advent of adding "google" in the dictionary, there's a good chance within the next five years, "virtual musician" may, or some varient thereof.

[Eman311]

I agree with your definition of music, but when playing guitar hero all you're doing is hitting notes when you should.

Say you play on easy, you're not even close to actually "playing" as you would on the actual instrument. Just because other people can enjoy the music, doesn't make the person playing it a musician.

^ to the poster two above me

[sporkBrigade]

Webster's definition of musician: a composer, conductor, or performer of music; especially : INSTRUMENTALIST

By this definition, anyone can be a musician. You can compose your own drum beat on your steering wheel. You can conduct your radio while driving to work. And anytime you belt out "I will Survive" in the shower so loud your neighbors can hear, you're performing music. You can twist this word and this definition to your heart's content.

But if anyone can be a musician, then what's the point of this thread? Why is anyone posting? The reason is that we all deep down know what it means when someone says "I am a musician." Drumming on your steering wheel doesn't make you a drummer. And playing drums on Rock Band is the same thing. Yes, it can teach you some fundamentals about the drumming art, but you're still not a drummer. And you're not a musician by the average person's standard.

The key here is not being satisfied with playing a video game. In the end, that's what Rock Band is. It's a video game. But it's a video game designed to give you a taste of what's waiting for you in the world of music making. If it's actually important to be called a musician, don't hit up a forum and twist words making you sound like one. Choose your instrument, and earn the title. You want to put "Musician" on your MySpace? Then do it. Become one.

If nothing else, the groupies for real guitar players are way hotter then the one's for plastic guitar players. :D

[Coldplayer]

It's actually silly to even discuss this. Come on, this is ridiculous.

You're playing a game. You're not creating music. You try to hit buttons at the right time and that's all.
That's very different than actually playing a real guitar.
I mean, yeah, since you're holding a guitar controller and the game plays the notes when you hit the buttons it feels as is you're playing a guitar. (That is why the game is great and fun)
But in reality, you're not. You're just using a gamepad.

All you do is get timing right. That has not much to do with music. That's something you do with a lot of things and in many activities.

[Redebo]

There are many different ways to define "music" or "musician" or (to address the topic on a broader scale) "art." ... As long as the intent is in the right place, then you are, in my book, a musician.

Thank you for taking the time to express that sentiment. Those are my exact feelings when it comes to this topic and indeed the reason that I posed the question in the first place! Do I intend to compare RB guitar players? Of course not! What about an RB drummer to a RL drummer? NO!

But, I would like to think that if I'm delivering the same passion and moving an audience with MY interpetation of the music that we "recreate" in RB, that indeed I'm a musician. The creative interpetation of an idea, feeling, or emotion through music... THAT is what a musician does!

Although I would have to agree w/ TFbassist below when he says that RB will not get you groupies :)

[tf5_bassist]

Drumming on your steering wheel doesn't make you a drummer. And playing drums on Rock Band is the same thing. Yes, it can teach you some fundamentals about the drumming art, but you're still not a drummer. And you're not a musician by the average person's standard.

My wife and I just had a conversation about this a few minutes ago, and she had said nearly the exact same thing. Drumming in RB will teach you how to start learning, not teach you how to be a drum god (or even close).


Although I would have to agree w/ TFbassist below when he says that RB will not get you groupies :)

And as we all know, groupies are one of the most important parts to being a musician. :D

Bassists, unless you're Claypool, sadly are underappreciated by the groupies. :/

In same conversation with my wife about this topic, she brought up an excellent point.

"Rock Band/Guitar Hero makes you a musician as much as DDR makes you a dancer."

Freakin' truth right there.

[Bakkster_Man]

In the context of a racing game, I agree with you, but in RB, you're actually SINGING and, insofar as the drums are concerned, you're banging on the pads to make an electrical impulse that tranlates into a sound. That's pretty much exactly how an electronic drum machine works is it not? When I play the drums on RB, I don't intend on "lightly tapping the pads." I'm going to hit them hard when the song requires that I do.

I don't think we're even in the same category here. Let's expand the analogy to racing games:
Racing your Neon on a short track: Reality
Playing Forza or Gran Turismo: Simulation
Playing Pole Position (old 16-bit game): Game

Playing in a rock band: Reality
No known example: Simulation
Playing Rock Band/Guitar Hero: Game

As far as the drumming, the difference is how the drum signal gets interpreted. In RB the pad says "Yes, I've been hit!" and the game registers that note as correct. On a real electronic drum kit each hit registers a 'velocity' which determines how loud to play the sound, something sorely missing in RB. It's this simplification from an analog part to a boolean abstraction that removes the musicianship.


Don't get me wrong, I'm not considering myself as a musician, but I would like to create a title, perhaps "Virtual Performer" that fits a person like who aren't as musically gifted as the real musicians out there but still feel the raw passion in music and strive to convey feeling through it. Gamer doesn't seem to cut it...

No, I'd say you're a rhythm gamer. You have learned rhythm and dexterity, but nothing more.


Playing rhythms on a real instrument is more complicated than playing the simplified chords on the GH controller, but in the end, we are doing the same thing. We are manipulating levers, buttons or strings to trigger the sound we desire. I don't think it is sound to deny the status of musician to GH and RB players on the basis that their instrument is simpler. I would instead look to the motive behind the action.

But it's NOT an instrument. It does not create sounds, nor does it trigger sounds, nor can it create music (at least in GH and RB). It is a toy. The game does all the work of deciding what the green button/pad means: This time it's an A, next time it's a C. A musician does this consciously, a gamer just knows he's hitting the green button.


Similarly, if several people play a song on Rock Band to entertain a crowd, on what level are they not musicians? They are using their skills to entertain. There are plenty of options in Rock band (such as the drum fill sections, the improvisation sections, and the optional guitar effects) that allow the players to express themselves. I believe that the physical act of playing a fake instrument to produce sound is fundamentally and philosohpically the same as playing a real instrument to produce sound, no matter what differences in complexity or difficulty may exist between the two. If the crowd and the players both are moved by the experience of the game, then I would be hard-pressed to say that, on some level, these players are musicians.

They are ENTERTAINERS, not musicians. The create entertainment, but no music. They are simply being backed by somebody else's music which responds to their gaming abilities.

And as far as vocals: if you can beat RB's vocals on expert, I'll call you a singer. But you still aren't a musician until you can explain WHY you are singing the notes you sing. Same with all the "instruments": why did you play a 4th instead of the 5th? Why did the kick drum play 1/2 beat early, and what should the bassist do in response? That will make you a musician, not playing a game.

Sorry this became so long...

[tf5_bassist]

They are ENTERTAINERS, not musicians. The create entertainment, but no music. They are simply being backed by somebody else's music which responds to their gaming abilities.

Precisely! Entertainers is probably the best term that's been tossed out there so far.

An entertainer as opposed to a musician, y'know, kinda' like Milli Vanilli?

Oooh, I think I'm going to hell for that one. ;)


And as far as vocals: if you can beat RB's vocals on expert, I'll call you a singer. But you still aren't a musician until you can explain WHY you are singing the notes you sing. Same with all the "instruments": why did you play a 4th instead of the 5th? Why did the kick drum play 1/2 beat early, and what should the bassist do in response? That will make you a musician, not playing a game.

Great explanation. :D

[Bakkster_Man]

But, I would like to think that if I'm delivering the same passion and moving an audience with MY interpetation of the music that we "recreate" in RB, that indeed I'm a musician. The creative interpetation of an idea, feeling, or emotion through music... THAT is what a musician does!

You haven't made anything new, you're just letting the game play original masters while you flail along. You have not interpreted, created, or modified anything, just done what the game told you to do on 5 buttons.


An entertainer as opposed to a musician, y'know, kinda' like Milli Vanilli?

That's a very good way to put it. You're just acting like you're playing the music.

[Kaboobi]

The question is: Does playing THIS make you a musician?

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[dlisapussy]

Precisely! Entertainers is probably the best term that's been tossed out there so far.

An entertainer as opposed to a musician, y'know, kinda' like Milli Vanilli?



A musician falls under the category of entertainers. Although I agree entertainer is the best term used so far, it's still not the correct word I'm looking for.

When I play GH, I'm entertaining, but I'm mainly entertaining myself, unless a crowd is watching which is not often. When I play guitar, I try to entertain as much people as I can (including myself). Plus, GH and guitar are completely different. So, If you become great at RockBand, I'll consider you as no more than a gamer.

[Bakkster_Man]

The question is: Does playing THIS make you a musician?

Yes, since it actually is an instrument. It just so happens that it is built off a GH controller.

[tf5_bassist]

The question is: Does playing THIS make you a musician?

Abso-frickin'-lutely. It's a synth, basically a modified keyboard with weird additions.

Would you say that Freezepop aren't musicians for using keytars and QY70s?

<a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/tf5_bassist/470283051/" title="Photo Sharing"><img src="http://farm1.static.flickr.com/201/470283051_b59d6459f4.jpg" width="500" height="333" alt="A taste of Freezepop..." /></a>

I still keep slacking on uploading the freezepop concert pics, too. meh.

[Cr1ckt]

Thank you to bassist and Bakkster for actually discussing the points I brought up. It seems that other musicians aren't as free with the term "musician", and I completely respect and understand that.

It is important to make a distinction between what people do in the game and what real musicians do with an instrument. I never wanted to argue that playing the game will transform you into a musician; I simply wanted to provide this discussion with some food for thought beyond the predictable "GH doesn't teach you to play guitar."

Bakkster is right that "entertainer" would be a more specific term to use for rock band players who happen to be "playing" for a crowd. I tried to broaden the term of musician to include such entertainers, but I suppose my perspective is skewed, as I play real music in addition to the game. For non-musicians, playing the game doesn't mean as much on a musical level because they don't understand the theory behind the songs (although I could point out a number of famous rock stars who didn't know the first thing about reading music or music theory.)

In the end, I do agree that, for those who have only played the game, they should really go out and learn the real instrument if they want to earn the title of musician. And regardless, one doesn't need to be a musician to appreciate music. I really believe that Rock Band is creating a new way to experience music, beyond listening to the album. Even though the game in incomparable to playing the real thing, it does provide one with an appreciation for the genius and skill that went into creating the original tracks. Thanks for reading my long winded posts, and don't take my suggestions too seriously. I'm just a bored student with nothing better to do (until November 20th, of course.)