Vocal Practice Mode Lacking

[SuperMary]

*edit* I'm editing my original post to go from asking why, to saying what needs to be changed and telling Harmonix to fix it (after 6 months and crossing my fingers for RB2, I'm done asking). After stating my points, I'll go into the common statements/questions that follow each point. Getting kinda tired of repeating myself so please read the points before responding with the same statements I already addressed. After that, I'm going to get on a soapbox and get snippy.


First and foremost, at the very, bare minimal, least there absolutely needs to be a way to seperate out a song into sections in practice mode on vocals. There just simply has to be. With that being said, here's some more ideas that are just icing on the proverbial cake.

The Most Optimal Upgrades to Vocal Practice

**Vocal Practice Menu is broken down into 2 choices: by section and by phrase. From those 2 choices you can then pick the according section/phrase. An even better option would be an initial list of sections, then from that list, there could be a sublisting of each corresponding phrase.

**While practicing you have the ability to slow down/speed up time.

**You actually receive a trail of the pitch you hit. The color would be (insert color here) for when the pitch is off, and when the pitch is on, where overlaps the green bar, in changes to (insert color here).



Now to address each point.

"Maybe it's too hard / not possible to seperate the song out"
- Doubtful considering when you pick a section in a song in drums/guitar practice, it comes complete with a vocal track playing at 100% speed. And as I'll point out many time from this point on, vocalists have easiest seperation in the game - neatly cut phrases. It's practically begging to be seperated.

"Maybe the difficulty would be too easy if you could practice each section"
- The essence of that statement is saying Harmonix does not want you to get good at playing their game. If that was the logic, then there should be no practice for any instruments. Also, simply figuring out how exactly to hit a section does not mean the challenge is gone. Got the section mastered? Great now try while playing the whole song.

"Maybe, since some vocal parts blend too much together, it just wouldn't work to try to seperate it out"
- Considering the basic breakup of a song is based on the vocal track (Verse, Chorus, etc), it doesn't make a lot of sense why it couldn't be done. Additionally, drums/guitar in practice mode comes complete with a second or so buffer before starting the section, to give you prep time. No reason the same buffer won't help out vox. Also, my favorite point - phrases. Excellent stopping/starting point.

"Just listen to an MP3 of the song"
- I, for one, am not paying for 140+ MP3s of songs I can play on Rock Band, just to practice vocals when the feature should be in the game like it is for guitars and drums. Also, singing and playing vox on Rock Band are simply not one in the same - especially on expert.

"Why both section/phrase option - why not just a list of one of them"
- This is purely a convenience factor. Optimally the best choice if there was only one, would be phrase by phrase selection. That would be suh-weet. But sometimes you wouldn't mind working on the whole chorus, so picking it phrase by phrase isn't really needed. And if you did want to only work on the song as sections as a whole, scrolling through a very lengthy list of phrases on some songs (*cough* Welcome Home) might be a pain.

"Slowing down will not work. It would sound wierd"
- Just like guitar/drum part, it would simply omit all music/vocals and leave the visual note/pitch to hit with the metronome to keep time. No one really expects Harmonix to develop a slurred out 50% speed Mick Jagger. I'm using Mick Jagger as another example here as well, some songs that have heavy harmony (like Gimmie Shelter) can actually be easier to practice muted.

"Slowing down wouldn't actually help you train (muscle memory)"
- I'm not sure why people think it'd be impossible to learn from drawing out a note. There are many small notes that are in a completely different pitch from the rest of the phrase. Unfortunately, these notes are so fast (a common occurence are 3 letter words at the beginning of phrases) you do not have adequate time to adjust your pitch to see if you can hit it. And this function would be more than useful on any songs that have short pitch changes all through a phrase (Suffragette City for example). Yes at a faster pace it might sound a little different, but the important part is that you're now in the right ballpark of pitch.

"Why bother with the pitch trail? It has an arrow indicator"
- The arrow indicator is just fine when it comes to playing a song. But while practicing, having more feedback is better. Being able to actually see where your pitch was in relation to the correct pitch is incredibly helpful and the arrow just pointing to "lower" and "higher" isn't really that informative. The color of the pitch trail isn't really important, it's just an idea to make it easier to read.



/soapbox

This may seem like asking a lot, but keep in mind we have no real practice as is. We have a no-fail mode - that is not what you would call "practice". Since the start of RB1, we've had to go through marathon length songs just to get to a few sections that we wanted to practice. We're talking, in most cases, playing 5 minute songs to take one shot at 3 seconds of vocals. Practicing these sections is what is the difference in FCs and Gold Stars, and even in some songs, it's needed to not fail out. You try singing Boston.

The only solution vox has to it's practice mode is to play an entire song over and over and over again to train. By the time we're done, singing the song is no longer fun, we don't want to play it because we're sick and tired of hearing that damn song again.

With RB2 coming out, saying I'm incredibly disappointed with their approach to vox is a gross understatement. For one, we're the only one without hardware improvement. Mad Catz had to be the one to put out a mic that has controller buttons on it - leaving me with my controller tied to my Mic Stand (...since I can never find the damn thing after a few drinks).

Software wise, the only thing Vox gets outta RB2 is that talky parts are no longer impossible. So thanks for fixing a blantant bug finally. But the biggest gripe is the fact that there is no difference between No Fail Mode and Practice. How this got an "OK" in functionality is simply beyond me. Reading this (http://xbox360media.gamespy.com/xbox360/image/article/908/908281/irock-band-2i-expert-vocal-analysis-20080905085317740.jpg) about how many songs have tricky/difficult endings, and knowing I'm going to have to either stick to hard or play this song until I hate all things in life, is just discouraging.


Now, Rock Band is a great, solid franchise. I happily support it's products and enjoy so much of the set list they put out. With great DLC, they introduced me to some really great bands I'm quit fond of. That being said, I'm really let down with how they have yet to even address the issue regarding vocal practice mode in the slightest, and are continuing to actively improve the guitar and drum experience. It just goes to show they do not consider vocals an important part of Rock Band. I realize that besides simply adding the vocal track in, there isn't much that can be done in terms of increasing the difficulty at haromonix's end, but it doesn't mean vox should be overlooked as far as an active part in your game.


Thank you.
Discussion after the edits starts at page 7.

[AtariShok]

I agree, you should be able to select a section of the song, just like with any other instrument. As far as slowing it down for vocals, I don't know how well that would work. Yet another thing to pester them about patching in (that should have been in it from the start). :(

[moonshine_des]

Yes, I agree here. It's really annoying when you are forced to listen to songs you don't like, again and again, just to get a couple phrases down..

I just settle for listening to the songs over and over again in practice mode, until I am familiar enough with the phrases and can sing them. Then I do a "final" practice, where I sing the whole song through. Then I go and sing the song in my career mode. I don't ever watch the screen the entire time though, that would drive me nuts...

[Dreaded Vega]

I was a little suprised to see how primitive the Vocal training mode is. I was expecting to see the lack of ability to slow down the speed of the vocal track (altho I don't see why it couldn't be done ultimately). But it's beyond me why there is no ability to chop up the song into parts - at all. If anything I figure this would be the easier track of all instruments to divy up.

With the frustration of "talky parts" in general, and the fact more of the latter songs are more of a marathon, it gets rather old to go thru a 6 minute song with 3 cowbell parts just to practice a few phrases I can't seem to hit for some reason.

What gives?

AMEN!!!!!!

[Sarge51]

I always wondered how the Vocal Training Mode was...

[punquin]

It is super annoying to have to go through the songs again and again just for certain parts. Really, the only thing that vocal practice mode provides is that you don't fail. So if I am just fine-tuning a song, it isn't worth it.

[Steef]

It'd be hard to make the practice mode better.
Vocals are too touchy!

[RiversDuritz]

Agreed. There are some songs where I miss two or three notes out of the whole song - sometimes you can't really hear the vocalist, so you end up guessing - it would be great to be able to practice vocals just like the rest.

[Seldomseen]

It'd be hard to make the practice mode better.
Vocals are too touchy!True say, although I too would like to have a patch wherein vocal practice allowed me to at least split songs into their parts (you know, like, Verse 1/Chorus/Verse 2/Chorus/Cowbell Section/Chorus/Coda/Big Rock Ending!--Actually, that last one doesn't really make any sense. I mean, does one really need practice on activating Star Power?:p).

Slowing down a song, vocally, is unrealistic (or is it? Personally, I highly doubt singing songs at a slower speed will make you any better at singing the song at normal speed; I just don't feel it works the same way as it does with the guitars or drums--The muscle memory you acquire by playing note charts slowly just isn't the same as the melodic memory you acquire by just singing a song, regardless of the speed at which you sing it). If they did, I can tell you right now that it'd be side-splitting hilarity. No, no, I'll say only that splitting songs (especially long songs) into parts is a much more effective and relevant practice mode option for the vocal game.

[nreality]

yea it sucks but I just get the mp3, and listen to it a few times.. maybe more.. try to get the repetition of the song in my head, try to remember repeating patterns in tone.. and concentrate like hell get through the song..

hell, I just gold starred (barely) "flirtin' with disaster" my first time without ever singing the song beforehand, but i had lots of off practice on my mp3 player.. heard that song so many times in my rockband playlist

[JetWolf]

I completely agree -- I have no idea why they didn't cut the vocal track up into practice segments. The slow down part I could live without, but to not be able to jump to a specific part of the song seems an obvious mistake to me. The lack of this, in my opinion, renders vocals practice mode redundant. I'll just keep playing the actual song in solo tour. I'm doing just as much work, have the benefit of the crowd giving me a more visceral feedback, and when I do get through it, tangible reward.

The only advantage I can see is faster load times. Which is great if you're working on something in the beginning of the song, but anything else just makes it a waste of time.

Very unfortunate. I'd hope for a patch in the future, though I think they have a very long list of things more important to "fix" first ...

[kuznagi]

Yeah... I just play the song in career mode, because why not? If I happen to be lucky and do good on the song may as well have it count for the score. For songs like Foreplay/Longtime where I can get every phrase except the last two overdrive ones, it is quite a pain to sing 5 mins each time and hope I get lucky and get it. So... that one took a while to gold star just because of that road block....

Some songs like highway star where the first build up phrase is hard isn't bad cuz I keep restarting, but still practice mode would be better. I think practice mode is for songs you know you will fail since thats the only benefit, you won't fail...

[Vandyan]

At least vocalists get a solo tour and dont get completely slapped across the face like bassists do.

End Bassism in Rock Band!

[kaiserkreb]

I'm pretty sure it's tough to slow down a vocal track while keeping it at the same pitch without noticeable distortion. It would be impossible and unrealistic to practice singing that way. IMHO of course..

[SuperMary]

Slowing down a song, vocally, is unrealistic (or is it? Personally, I highly doubt singing songs at a slower speed will make you any better at singing the song at normal speed; I just don't feel it works the same way as it does with the guitars or drums--The muscle memory you acquire by playing note charts slowly just isn't the same as the melodic memory you acquire by just singing a song, regardless of the speed at which you sing it). If they did, I can tell you right now that it'd be side-splitting hilarity. No, no, I'll say only that splitting songs (especially long songs) into parts is a much more effective and relevant practice mode option for the vocal game.

I agree the slowing down vocals in practice would produce very different results as it does with muscle memory in guitar and drums. I also agree it is not as big of a concern as at least breaking down the song into parts.

But slowing down would help with the songs that have several short notes in a few different pitch ranges. Just in a for instance sake, "Suffragette City" hits a few different notes just with the "Suffragette". Maybe you can get "Su" down but the "Fra" is a little off".

Again that example is just splitting hairs, and really the least of my concern. The ability to play in sections seems much more important and realistic.

And as far as downloading mp3s as a basis of training, I was amazed, and embarressed, on how many songs I already had downloaded that I apparently don't sing correctly. I find I do "harmony" off notes instead of hitting the correct lead vocal note. It feels right, it sounds right (not shrill), it's just not the right note (Black Hole Sun is an example of this). Point being, seeing the pitch bar makes a difference when you can't seem to train yourself to get out of harmony.

The lack of in-depth practice mode only slightly bugged me before. But now I find expert mode is pretty unforgiving. I would really like to nail some of these sections without playing the song so much I never want to hear it again. Kinda defeats the purpose.

[Viral Cheese]

One "complaint" I'd like to add is that at the end of the song, lets say if you wanted to practice another song, there is no option to do so. All you get is the restart and quit options. I'd like a "New Song" option to be added there, on top of the section choosing, if possible. :)

[SuperMary]

That's it tho huh? Lotta people obviously have felt the same way and are discussing it....

But no official word on why it's as primitive as it is, and if that's something that's being worked on or "just deal with it and get on with your life noob!"

Sorry to pester, it just bugs me :)

[Dzhokhar]

I always assumed the ability to chop up a song was there. This is a definite must-have.

As far as slowing the song down, it would be a signal processing nightmare to maintain the proper pitch in the vocal track. It might help with learning large, tightly spaced, jumps between notes. They could almost certainly do it with a muted track, which would be better than nothing.

[Bubblegum]

I completely and wholeheartedly agree.
I recently came across a song that I was trying to FC, but couldn't get one phrase because it was half broken-talky. If I could have nailed the dead notes in the non-talky part, I would have been set.
If vocal practice mode were more like guitar, bass, and drum practice, I could have gone into Practice mode, selected that phrase so I could practice it repeatedly (as I could do the other phrases with a 100% success rate), and slowed it down to hear the dead notes.
Alas, it's pretty much useless; it only does what actual play mode does, except it won't let you fail out. Which, I guess, would be useful for songs like Reptilia and I Get By, but overall, it's very insufficient.

[SuperMary]

I always assumed the ability to chop up a song was there. This is a definite must-have.

As far as slowing the song down, it would be a signal processing nightmare to maintain the proper pitch in the vocal track. It might help with learning large, tightly spaced, jumps between notes. They could almost certainly do it with a muted track, which would be better than nothing.


I imagine it can be slowed like drums/guitar where the only sound you hear is a "beat tick"- you don't hear the music or vocals unless its at 100%

[packerfan8675309]

yeah vocal training is basically useless

[SuperMary]

*bump*

/pester pester pester

[FFFreak1129]

I agree. It would be cool if you could slow down the song and pick the section you are having trouble in. It sucks having to sing the whole song when you only need to learn one or two phrases. I wonder if they would be able to put in a better practice system for it now.

[Carlo Von Sexron]

Wow, imagine if there was some kind of electronic or mechanical device in the game that you could play songs on. That would be awesome. Then you could play, pause, rewind and fast forward those tracks however many times you wanted. I wish HMX thought of that for Rock Band.

:)

[SuperMary]

*bump*

Please?

[murfinator]

The training in-game isn't useless, its teaches you how to play the game; Your not going to be taught how to sing well... its a fact that some people just cant sing AT ALL!

The vocal practice however is totally useless! I don't want to sing half the song to learn ten seconds of a song. WTF

Edit: SuperMary you best stop bumping or you may get banned :(

[SuperMary]

Bumping a post gets you banned? I'm only bumping it every few days when it gets buried pretty far down... What would be the correct approach then? Make a new post everytime it disappears beyond page 5 or so? *sigh* :(

I just want feedback on either if it's going to be changed or why it is what it is. I've heard great things about HMX actually discussing with people on the forums about things like this... And so far, everyone discussing in this topic is in agreeance about how it bothers them too. It just doesn't seem like a crazy request...

I'm baffled why everything I've seen on this topic in the forums just does not get addressed.

[JetWolf]

Bumping a post gets you banned?
Not banned, but could result in a warning. From the forum rules here (http://www.rockband.com/forum-rules):


Bumping Threads: “Bumping” is the act of artificially and repeatedly elevating a thread or topic of discussion to the first page of a forum. Relevant discussion, in theory, will maintain itself, and interest in a thread will allow discussion to carry on naturally. Bumping threads is considered “bad form.” Users found bumping threads will be issued a warning.


What would be the correct approach then? Make a new post everytime it disappears beyond page 5 or so? *sigh* :(
I would just let it be. You've made the post and received forum support (showing that you're not alone in your feelings). There's little else to be done really. Repeatedly posting is just going to make the issue an irritating one, and quickly raise the ire of your fellow posters.


I just want feedback on either if it's going to be changed or why it is what it is. ... I'm baffled why everything I've seen on this topic in the forums just does not get addressed.
They have people on-staff whose primary job it is to read the forum, gather feedback and initiate changes. This post you made was not the first time the issue was raised, nor is it likely to be the last. But to expect that a Harmonix representative will reply to each and every issue/suggestion/complaint raised is unrealistic. I'm not sure how much time you've spent around here, but absolutely everything any one of them says is taken out of context, twisted out of shape, brandished about as immutable law, and generally used against them whenever possible. It's just not good business for them to say anything in here until it's already a done deal.

It could be that this issue is on the list to be fixed. Could be they're working on it right this very second. Could be that there's some technological problem at the moment preventing them from implementing this. It could be anything. But they're not going to say that they're working on it, because that just leads to people thinking that "working on it" means "we'll have it for you in ten minutes" (which leads to cries of how Harmonix lied), and they're not going to say that they can't fix it because that leads to an uproar too, not to mention the fact that they might very well be able to solve this hypothetical problem down the line, leading to lots of blood and tears for nothing.

You asked. So my advice to you? Be satisfied that you've done all you can, and go play your game. Just don't try practicing vocals right now. :)

[SuperMary]

Well thank you for the well written reply on the matter. Even tho the jist of the message was "drop it and buzz off", I can't take offense if you've only brought up valid points as to why. It's a much better approach than "lol noob l2shutup" ;)

I'm not going to argue, I just want to clarify a bit.

When I started this post I actually expected it to disappear in about 10 minutes. I didn't expect it to get a mass of people to go "It pisses me off too" and that's the only reason I kept pushing.

I realize I'm far from the first or only person to have said something in the matter. I can completely see how bumping a post about an issue may pester some fellow posters, that's why I did it at a minimum and during business hours primarily. But if I was an active forum reader, I personally would get more agitated about *another* thread about a subject that was just discussed being posted by a new person every other day. Most topics I read in here about feedback are hazed for the poster not checking the search function before posting because there's several dozen posts on this that all started just this week.

I also fully understand that expecting HMX to respond to each and every complaint or issue is beyond ridiculous. I would never expect anything of that sort - especially after actively reading most of the posts here. But because this is obviously a thorn in many people's sides and I can't seem to find any reason on why this is how it is, I was just lookin for anything at this point - just any information about it. Not a release date, and not a detailed blueprint of how, when, why, and where. And while I agree there are definetly some people out there who interpret every bone you throw them as "promises" that were never made, it's also not a good idea to assume everyone who posts feedback is like that. And, besides, those people who do whine will find something else to cry "foul" about in 10 minutes anyway.

But I really do see your point on things and I'm tired of trying anyway. I'll just cross my fingers they are intending to fix it, and give up trying to master songs until things are changed. Time to catch up on my other console games I have that have been collecting dust since Rock Band release. :P

[Kikanaide]

I would just like to add another voice to this request. I don't care if we can slow it down (though it would be nice), but we really need the ability to start the song in the middle. If you can't hit the "ow" in the center of a five-minute song, there currently is no real option for fixing that... even worse if it's the random lines sung at the end of Foreplay/Long Time or some similarly long song.

[DasKonstruct]

I agree with the splitting of a track in practice mode. I think its a great idea.

But let me break it down why you can't accurately slow down an audio track for vocal practice.

1. Unless you include written musical notes and also successfully read them you can't slow down vocals to learn the music. The guitar has a written note chart even though its simple its still a chart for what to exactly hit. Vocals are done by sight and ear in this game you learn to sing the right note in your vocal range while seeing a scale for what you're singing. This isn't a note chart but a range chart and its all relative to the song you are singing.

2. Vocal distortion - when you slow down audio the pitch drops. You hear this in the guitar practice mode but you're more focused on the notes rather than the sounds you are producing. Since in the example above I showed why you can't read the music for vocals you have to rely on your ear to sing perfectly. If you have issues with the lyrics listen to the song several times and sing along while reading the lyrics. This is how many vocalists learn music outside of opera and more traditional styles of singing.

My advice, get the mp3 or cd and suck it up. It really can't be done successfully.

[metalfenix]

In practice, slow down vocals, for me, is useless, but the song splitting on the other hand....we need it!!! specially to practice tricky parts on songs like foreplay/long time and such.

Sign me up.

[Melchiah]

I absolutely agree.

I tried out Practice Mode for Vocals once and never wasted my time again. I figured I might as well just play the song for real until I get past my "trouble spot". There's literally no reason to use Training Mode on Vocals.

[Linkster]

Practice mode split into sections is absolutely essential!

Slowing it down would be nice too, but is less important than sections, IMO.

[GHAL416]

one of the things i think is a must. it was definitely frustrating to have to sing songs to practice a part only a few seconds long or so when a broken down song in practice would have fixed that. heres to hoping we see a better vocals practice mode in RB2 :)

[Ninegauger]

Is there any reason that you can't split up the song. I understand why you can't slow it down, but jeez... there's no reason to not split it up. Plus, I hear they haven't even fixed it for Rock Band 2.

Is it some licensing bull ****?

[Hokonoso]

the way i practice vocals is i play the song 100+ times on bass, guitar, and drums then i decide to start the vocals tour on expert and knock it all out at once. since i can sing irl singing in game is easy, the only pre-req for me is knowing the song. i see no reason to break down songs in practice mode as you lose the feel of the song as it is supposed to be sung. it's different for instruments as one might only practice the solo for 3 months straight without touching other parts, but a singer must know the entire song perfectly at all times and no part is insignificant.

[trg007]

the way i practice vocals is i play the song 100+ times on bass, guitar, and drums then i decide to start the vocals tour on expert and knock it all out at once. since i can sing irl singing in game is easy, the only pre-req for me is knowing the song. i see no reason to break down songs in practice mode as you lose the feel of the song as it is supposed to be sung. it's different for instruments as one might only practice the solo for 3 months straight without touching other parts, but a singer must know the entire song perfectly at all times and no part is insignificant.

That's why it's called Practice Mode, not Performance Mode. How is practicing a guitar solo any different? You are skipping parts of the song you already know perfectly to get to the hard part. I see no reason why vocalists shouldn't have the same option.

[supes]

I figure with Rock Band 2 coming out, this isn't going to get resolved for Rock Band 1. I'm not too upset about it because I plan on getting RB2.

Unfortunately, I keep reading all the news about how there is the new Drum training mode, and there is still not one tiny blurb about any improvements on vocal practice.

I would absolutely love to assume that there is a brokendown practice mode for singers in RB2, and they're not mentioning it because it's not really "amazing" news. But honestly, I would've expected this feature to be in RB1 in the first place, so I'm not assuming anything until I read it in a press release or see it in the game myself.

So please, I'm begging for just a small tiny bone - what gives? Is there a reason behind this? Is there some reason why you can't play just sections of a song in vocal practice mode? Why must we play an 6 minute song to try to nail one 3 second long verse? *beg*plead*grovel*

[toymachineSH]

ROCKBAND DOESN'T CARE ABOUT BLACK PE- VOCALISTS

but umm yeah since there is no fail mode don't bother putting Vocals practice in as now there is absolutely no point to it WHATSOEVER

unless you've allowed us to pick the sections to practice on.

As for the person that says "just listen to the song" you obviously don't play vocals on expert competitively

[supes]

so close to release of RB2... and still not one word about this.

Is it really going to be a disappointed repeat of RB1's vocal practice?

[murfinator]

^From the sound of it RB2 doesn't have any improvements to the practice mode judging by this quote from the GameSpy expert vocal analysis (http://xbox360.gamespy.com/articles/908/908281p1.html) article.

Under Aqualung the guy says "Getting a feel for the ending made us wish Rock Band 2 had a proper practice mode for vocals." Which really sucks!:confused:

My guess is that coding the vocal track to individual phrases must be extremely difficult (or impossible b/c of DLC compatibility); otherwise HMX should have picked up on such a obvious issue.

[Dzhokhar]

^From the sound of it RB2 doesn't have any improvements to the practice mode judging by this quote from the GameSpy expert vocal analysis (http://xbox360.gamespy.com/articles/908/908281p1.html) article.

Under Aqualung the guy says "Getting a feel for the ending made us wish Rock Band 2 had a proper practice mode for vocals." Which really sucks!:confused:

My guess is that coding the vocal track to individual phrases must be extremely difficult (or impossible b/c of DLC compatibility); otherwise HMX should have picked up on such a obvious issue.

Wow, that's unbelievably disappointing. It should have been trivially easy to implement an ability to cut up a song and loop specific sections like is possible with all of the other instruments.

[Electric_Zen]

It should have been trivially easy to implement an ability to cut up a song and loop specific sections like is possible with all of the other instruments.

I doubt it would have been trivially easy, but Rock Band 2 was supposed to refine and polish the rough edges in RB1, and this was clearly one of the roughest edges.

The lack of a vocal practice mode is what keeps me from attempting Expert vocal career. It is just too time consuming to try and learn sections where I'm not sure exactly which pitch they are looking for.

[supes]

The lack of a vocal practice mode is what keeps me from attempting Expert vocal career. It is just too time consuming to try and learn sections where I'm not sure exactly which pitch they are looking for.

That's exactly where I'm at. I've given up expert vocals, and I don't even *dream* about getting gold stars.. I don't have the time or patience to go through a 6 minute song to nail a couple notes.

As far as breaking it up in sections, it's beyond me why it can't be done. You play guitar or drums on practice, pick a section of the song, and at 100% speed you hear vocals. It's not like vocals are on some crazy absurd system that can't be broken up obviously.

Before I thought that asking for a way to slow the speed down or to give feedback (a trail to show where exactly your pitch was in relation to the note - instead of just an arrow pointing to "too low") was asking too much, I really never thought asking to simply break the song into sections was outta the question.

Honestly, what is the big deal???
Here's hoping GHWT gets it right... they already have a better pitch indicator....

[Dzhokhar]

You know, there are a few people here who should be able to tell us about the RB2 practice modes now...

Can anybody enlighten us on whether the GameSpy article was right about the vocal practice mode not being fixed?

Also, and slightly offtopic, I'm wondering if the other instruments' practice modes keep track of your multiplier or not in RB2?

[supes]

http://www.rockband.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1206983


Edit - It was buggin me , so I decided to check before I crashed - Vocal practice mode , still the same - can't pick sections. (Booooo!) Which sucks even worse now cause when you fail , it tells you the name of the section you failed in . . . must be nice for Drummers and Guitarists.

*so angry*

[PHiNiX]

i suck at vocals and would love to be better, if anyone has an tips let me know

[supes]

i suck at vocals and would love to be better, if anyone has an tips let me know


Sure, get HMX to actually put a practice system in that would *not* be the exact same thing as doing a song on no fail mode.

[Magnet]

I actually agree with an earlier post saying that, since no sections are separated, Practice Mode for vocals is completely useless now that there's a No Fail option. Unless there's something new we haven't heard about, there's not really a reason for it to exist anymore.

[Dzhokhar]

I actually agree with an earlier post saying that, since no sections are separated, Practice Mode for vocals is completely useless now that there's a No Fail option. Unless there's something new we haven't heard about, there's not really a reason for it to exist anymore.

Agreed.

Additionally, I can't think of a good reason why the vocal practice mode wouldn't allow you to break the song into sections, especially because the vocals divide much more naturally than the other instruments (into phrases).

[Renrock]

Agreed.

And to those who would just say listen to it on something else to learn. It helps sometimes , but the times I would need this feature is when I think i'm hitting it right but its not registering.

I want practice mode so that I can go to that part of the song to try over and over until I can figure out what the "fill-up" bar wants.

[murfinator]

This makes me think that separating the vocal practice mode into sections just isn't possible for w/e reasons I posted before... But HMX is it to much to ask for a fast forward and rewind option?

[supes]

This makes me think that separating the vocal practice mode into sections just isn't possible for w/e reasons I posted before... But HMX is it to much to ask for a fast forward and rewind option?


Seems like everything is "too much to ask for". Hell I can't even see why we can't pick phrase by phrase already, but even asking for a simple "verse chorus verse" is crazy talk.

Do vocalists get *anything* new for rock band 2 besides the set list?

[supes]

You must be tone deaf. Anyone that has an ear for music does not need a training mode for vocals, they can just sing the note.

You obviously don't play vox.

[murfinator]

^I was just about to say the same thing...

When was the last time you FCed a song on vocals JayhawkGuy?

[taylorlee]

I completely agree with this!

Foreplay/Longtime was an absolute NIGHTMARE to nail the last parts.

I don't see how this is NOT possible.

[RobbySuave]

I think it has to do with the fact that vocals usually don't follow the rigidness of the parts like the instruments do. Like, there may be some sort of a lead in vocal part that goes into a chorus or something. If you selected to sing just the chorus, you'd be starting at an odd part. But with drums and guitar, the parts are more precise.

[taylorlee]

I think it has to do with the fact that vocals usually don't follow the rigidness of the parts like the instruments do. Like, there may be some sort of a lead in vocal part that goes into a chorus or something. If you selected to sing just the chorus, you'd be starting at an odd part. But with drums and guitar, the parts are more precise.

Maybe for vocals practice, it could have it's own set of sections.

Or a phrase-by-phrase breakdown.

I know it seems like a lot of work, but I'm pretty sure vocalists (except for that one ignorant guy) would appreciate it.

[supes]

I understand what you mean about some songs having parts flowing into others, might cause some problems, but really it shouldn't. For one thing, how a song is divided (not in RB or GH, but divided in general) is primarily based off of vocals. Also, practicing with both guitars and drums, there's always a good second or so buffer to prep before the section starts, vocals should be absolutely no different.

And really, even if, for some bizarre reason, it did affect a song here or there, saying vox can't divide up *any* song at all is absolutely beyond me. We're sick and tired of going through 6 minute songs to hit a couple odd verses... it's not worth the effort.

[DethBoxx]

Maybe they tried having a real practice mode for vocals and found it made the game too easy for vocalists? Not a great theory but it's the best I could come up with...

After all, they don't really have a way of making the vox harder, since the 'note chart' is pretty much fixed.

[Dzhokhar]

Also, vocals are EASIER to break up than the other instruments because they already have to be broken into phrases for normal gameplay. I really don't think Harmonix has any (valid) reason for leaving out the ability to practice songs by section.

[SuperMary]

*edited original post to reflect all issues*

[bonethug0108]

As a vocalist, I'm 100% behind this thread.

At the VERY least, they should gives us the option to choose sections like the other instruments.

Without that, vocal practice literally is pointless as you are just playing the song without earning stars/scores/money. You may as well "practice" by actually playing the song.

[SuperMary]

Hopefully with Apples topic about bug fixes and immediate attention that all have shared to Vox practice, this may get addressed. Altho I still have to say I'm really upset this thread is now 6 months old and HMX hasn't even coughed in its direction. Really is re-instating the belief they don't take vox seriously.

[Mr. Tate]

On behalf of my singer, bring on a better vocals practice mode including sections. :)

[SuperMary]

Just got RB2... been playing it all day.

While the vocals are easier to do... the lack of vocal practice really does effect gameplay still ... Now the number of songs that are easy 90% of the time with the exception of 4 verses has increased greatly. Thanks guys.

Not to mention - I've had several songs now that have had me fill up my overdrive bar *past* full before giving me an option to even use the overdrive phrase. Pair this up with the lack of any new hardware and you've got yourself a highly neglected instrument in RB2. Thanks HMX for continuing to *COMPLETELY* ignore this issue (over 7 months strong now). No worries, I'm sure if you concentrate hard enough, this topic will just disappear into thin air.

*Disclaimer* it really isn't the issue so much anymore that bothers me *this* much, it's the fact that HMX has had this issue brought up to them several times now for a long time, and have yet to say *ANYTHING* about it. It really does give the feeling that they either think no one will notice them not paying attention or they simply don't care, and feel that vox really isn't a *real* part of Rock Band. In either case, it's pretty damn ****ty.

[Dagg21]

Vocal training has always been a joke whats my motivation for using it, if I have to play the entire song Id rather just play it in game and hey at least maybe my score can improve (summary:its worthless)

[WildBillKickoff]

With:
1. The flat out broken talkies in RB1
2. The fact that they are all ridiculously easy and take no skill in RB2 (So Whatcha Want for a free flawless singing achievement)
3. The lack of being able to choose a song section in vocal practice mode
4. Charting the harmony line instead of the melody on about a dozen DLC tracks (Rock and Roll Band and Peace of Mind being the most egregious examples)
5. Not being able to play through Moving Pictures/YYZ with a vocalist in your band (hopefully this is the reason for the delay)

It has become painfully clear to me that HMX either does not playtest vocals, and/or does not care about singing beyond the medium level.

[Electric_Zen]

It has become painfully clear to me that HMX either does not playtest vocals, and/or does not care about singing beyond the medium level.

There may be some truth to that. Outside of the most hardcore (JohnLok), Harmonix employees frequently say that they like to sing on medium vocals because they can 'just have fun'.

[SuperMary]

The more and more I play RB2, the more I get frustrated with how many songs have obscure middle/end sections that are really damn hard.

[Parodygm]

Very well constructed argument for fixing a glaring omission. I agree with you entirely.

[chix0rak]

Posting for justice.

SuperMary has the right of it.

[Ninegauger]

If they can't do it, the least they could do is tell us that they can't or acknowledge that they are aware of the problem.

The fact that it couldn't be done in Rock Band 1 is basically inexcusable, the fact that they ignored the issue for Rock Band 2 is borderline infuriating.

[SuperMary]

Agreed. Getting tired of them pretending this problem doesn't exist... this threads been going strong 6 months now...

[SuperMary]

Still no word on this...

But it's ok, I can wait.

[Cookar]

Definitely vocal practice mode needs some help.

[The Hungry Samurai]

Vocals practice mode is a joke. When I was working on GSing Longtime I nearly killed my Xbox. I'd have almost FC'd the damn thing but I could never quite get the hang of the song from those last two overdrive phrases.

Between this and the Instrumental lock out of YYZ and the upcoming 3 Texas Flood tracks I've often wondered what HMX has against 1/4th of their fans.

[Renrock]

Vocals practice mode is a joke. When I was working on GSing Longtime I nearly killed my Xbox. I'd have almost FC'd the damn thing but I could never quite get the hang of the song from those last two overdrive phrases.



I also share your Boston pain. Dylan and Jethro Tull come to mind this time around.

[veggisoup]

This is exactly what I was thinking after I tried out the vocals practice section. Just break up the song into sections and don't make us sing the whole song again and again.

Also, something nice would be playback when using the headset as your microphone - make it easier to hear the vocals and what pitch you're trying to match.

[SuperMary]

Also, something nice would be playback when using the headset as your microphone - make it easier to hear the vocals and what pitch you're trying to match.

I think this idea is an excellent one. It just sucks that we can't even get any attention to vocal practice from HMX in the slightest so it doesn't really matter.

I actually stopped playing RB2 outta frustration and have moved on to other games. Don't think I'm coming back until I'm allowed to practice just as effectively as drummers and guitarists can. I think what frustrates me the most is that no one on staff will even say a single word about this. Being ignored is worse than being told "tough crap".

[McPhersonator]

Here here! Nice post, I couldn't agree with it more. Although I'd just be happy with the ability to select certain phrases, and to listen to it with no background music. Just the singer is what I want to hear. I tried turning the background music in the options menu right down, and upon playing a song, the vocals sounded incredible and gave me a much clearer impression of what to emulate. But I don't want to have to mess around in the options menu every time I want to practice something... that's what practice mode should be for.
Splitting songs up is the most important thing though. Y'know that Coheed song, Ten Speed? 99% every time, because I can't do the last phrase. Not being able to practice that bit without singing the entire song first is ridiculous.

[SuperMary]

*cough*

'scuse me.

[Melodica]

I fully support the OP. There are definitely some areas that could use work in the game (most notably the fact that you can't do a bass solo tour).

On the songs that I'm not sure of, I usually just pull up the video on Youtube and listen to it a few times.

[SuperMary]

Anyone else resorting to using youtube videos to help train you on those tough to do phrases? It's getting really old...

[punquin]

Anyone else resorting to using youtube videos to help train you on those tough to do phrases? It's getting really old...

Yep... Practice mode has kept me from trying to learn the Dylan song so far. It's so freaking long and it's the second half I have trouble with. Meh.

[only1genevieve]

Just want to chime in with my agreement. If your friend plays drums, you get jealous watching them practice - they have so many different options and ways to practice! Meanwhile, I get to sing the whole song over and over exactly the same without any way to isolate my problems? That's terrible.

Overall, I feel like the way RB1 and 2 treats vocalists is less than stellar.

[Icemage]

While the lack of a viable practice mode is definitely annoying and nonsensical, there's bigger issues.

Even so, doing a section-by-section practice should work as long as the vocals are faded in/out into and out of each section to give you an audible marker for what you're supposed to be singing.

There's still a lot of other issues I'd rather see fixed before this, though (mysterious overdrive activation windows that sometimes go off right away, and other times won't activate even when you're 2-3 inches inside the gold window, several songs that give 5 overdrive bars between activation windows, songs with completely unusable overdrive phrases at/near the end of the song, etc.)

[thewyrm]

I just want to add my support as a mostly Voxer / sometime Bassist. If I could separate the verses in practice I know I could finish a lot more songs on Expert.

[SuperMary]

While the lack of a viable practice mode is definitely annoying and nonsensical, there's bigger issues.


Half the reason why this thread is such a big deal is that it's the one of the longest standing vox issues that has never gotten a single response from Harmonix. It's not some new bug, we've *never* had a real vocal practice mode since the start of the franchise.

So, while there are newer issues of bugs and other mishaps in RB2, this issue has been around the longest, affects both RB1 and RB2 players, players with no DLC and players every DLC, and is something that HMX flat out *refuses* to even comment on.

And honestly, I rather see a real vocal practice mode that I can use on *every* song than them fixing a couple broken spots in various random songs in the game. The fact the overdrive bar fills almost twice over before you can use it in "Give it Away" is not as annoying as playing through that very long and very repetitative song to botch the one strange singing phrase at the end.

But all serious issues should at least be addressed regardless. I mean, this is why it's easy for people to thing bassists and vox are not considered serious players of the game in HMX's eyes.

[SuperMary]

You know I was wondering something so I looked it up.


Also, a very important thing to note is that there is now a vocal practice mode. It can be done by sections as indicated by the stats screen, where it will tell you your percentage on each set of verses and how many "words you missed."

From a story on GHWT found here (http://wiki.scorehero.com/NSCommunityArticleVocals)

So I'm not missing anything. There isn't some crazy insane coding that needs to be done to do seperate sections out, it can be done! These guys can't even comprehend the concept of importing songs and got this crap down pat.

Guys please. What is the hold up? More importantly, why won't you say anything about it. It's clearly an issue that isn't going to go away if you ignore it, and at this point just TALKING about it would be a welcome miracle.

I would *really* love to dust off my copy of RB2 sometime soon.

[JuliefooJojo87]

I agree with everything in the original post, and second it!
Do you know how many times i had to sing White wedding, and Give it away to get that last phrase?! Guh. I found myself wishing for a practice mode more than once on several occasions! Please please please have a practice mode for Vocals one day.

[SuperMary]

So Beatles Rock Band and Green Day Rock Band all have "real" vocal practice modes like the one requested.

Does this mean Rock Band 3 will *FINALLY* have a real practice mode?

*beg*
*plead*

[HMXThrasher]

There's a ton of RB3 info floating around the site right now - on the forums, in announcements, and in news. If you want to keep up with a current discussion of all the RB3 features that have been announced head over here:
http://www.rockband.com/forums/showthread.php?t=192411
(People don't often check two plus year old threads).

And of course keep posted here to RB.com for more official announcements and updates.