Devil Worship

[Xzyliac]

With is up with the common theme through the history of rock that everybody worshipped the Devil? Well rumored to anyway

From Heart to Led Zepplin.

Where'd it all begin? Please educate me.

[Rev0lver]

from the schiziophrenic pastor-made videos i've seen, they seem to take the "sold my soul" thing literally. all starting back with that black blues guitarist in mississippi(i forget his name).

the story goes that he played guitar worse than fall out boy on crack, and one night he went out and sold his soul to the devil, then became the most legendary blues guitarist of all time. and most of his songs are about him "running from the devil" because hes going to come and kill him someday.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2494291415376995856&q=sold+soul+rock&total=221&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=0

^part 1 of 4

[Xzyliac]

That's just...awkward.

[Akaymay]

It was always just a tactic that parents used to get kids to stop listening to Rock music. They thought their kids would get bad influences for anything they heard, so they used anything they could. Devil Worship, Drug Addiction, Prostitution, anything.

For example. AC/DC got their name when Angus Young saw that his Sister's sewing machine had "AC/DC" written on the back, referring to Alternate Current/Direct Current. But parents turned it against them and said that it meant "After Christ/Devil Comes". It's all just a tactic.

[TheDude_01]

The blues guitarist is Robert Johnson (though that name is somewhat contested as accurate records were not kept at the time and he used many different names when performing around the south.) He is the inspiration behind the guitar player in O Brother Where Art Though? (which is an adaptation on the Illiad by Homer.) The legend as most people know it goes as follows (from the wikipedia article:)

Robert Johnson was a young black man living on a plantation in rural Mississippi. Branded with a burning desire to become a great blues musician, he was instructed to take his guitar to a crossroad near Dockery’s plantation at midnight. There he was met by a large black man (the Devil) who took the guitar from Johnson, tuned it, and handed it back to him. Within less than a year’s time, in exchange for his everlasting soul, Robert Johnson became the king of the Delta blues singers, able to play, sing, and create the greatest blues anyone had ever heard.

As for AC/DC, it was and is a common term for people who are bisexual, a fact the band didn't learn until after they had started using the name.

[Xzyliac]

Sounds really weird. People really bought this?

[Jixzer]

Yes, because people are stupid. That whole video is based on a few isolated incidents, yet they label an entire industry...it's all crap.

[Rev0lver]

There he was met by a large black man (the Devil)

THE DEVIL IS A BLACK MAN???

[metalhead]

I think that it all starts with the sound of "rock / heavy metal" music. Haunting, dark, deep sounds that make great melodies.
I guess when heavy metal or rock music started they felt that these sounds would make for great music that was not the norm at the time. I know that Jimmy Paige of Led Zep was into Black Magic & stuff like that as well, so that was an inspiration for him.
Anyway the dark side of music rocks.

[Zidane]

It does seem like parents and priest trying to scare away kids. But it really doesn't help when the bands themselves don't try to clear things up in order to just keep up their credibility. Any press is good press, right?

[gh2masterwellalmost]

With is up with the common theme through the history of rock that everybody worshipped the Devil? Well rumored to anyway

From Heart to Led Zepplin.

Where'd it all begin? Please educate me.

The dumb Catholics told lies to stop listening to their music because it made some light mentions in many bands from the 60s and 70s, but it just turned out to be brilliant publicity, and the music business played upon it.

[Hoodman]

I agree on the Robert Johnson approach, clearly seen in the song Cross Road Blues. But we've seen plenty of devil worship concepts, sometimes I think bands do it just to piss people off, because of how much hate they get from religious purists.

BTW: Robert Johnson died at 27, for me he is the first true 27 Club member.

[crunchyoverseas]

The devil is clearly a white man....a white man in a white suit with white teeth that gleam in a big, white smile. He is a business man, a republican and he loves jello...

[Fallon]

I dunno. Even if the story does go back to Robert Johnson, I think it's sad, that religion had to stick it's nose into the story. I figure it like this. Religion was made up to be used as a way to control people. and then comes along rock and roll. It effects people in a mass (no pun intended) that religion can't compete with, so naturally it must come from the devil. In other words, everything that effects so many people so easily must come from the devil if it does not come from god. And let's face it, singing about drugs, rape, killing, sex and everything else that's been sung about over the years istn't exactly godly now is it? Religion was made up out of fear. Fear of the unknown, fear of death. It was the human way to deal with our fear. Once it was realised that it could be used to control so many people it was clear that religion found it's place in history forever. And besides, if selling your soul to the devil helps you make better music then by all means more power to ya!

20 point question: who said this and when?

"Hail satan if you please mooooahahahah.. BUUUUURP.. I'm just kidding man... maybe...."

[gh2masterwellalmost]

The devil is clearly a white man....a white man in a white suit with white teeth that gleam in a big, white smile. He is a business man, a republican and he loves jello...

Who we consider the devil is a lie. The idea of the three pitched fork and the horns - they're all taken from a pagan god which Christianity was trying to beat.

The same went for xmas - 25th December was the pagan day of the sun. God damn Christians, they **** everything up

[LavatoryLoveMachine]

The devil is clearly a white man....a white man in a white suit with white teeth that gleam in a big, white smile. He is a business man, a republican and he loves jello...

And a big yellow M oh his jacket, dont forget that.


The devil worshipping thing is pure media, and has nothing to do with the music. You want REAL satanism? Norwegian black metal. (although some just use satanism as a weapon, they are in fact pagans)

[JukeBoxHero]

http://personal.monm.edu/WTHOMAS/Millennia/Dante_files/image010.jpg


There's Dante impression of him.:D

[viru30]

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'Nuff said/I win this thread.

[Xzyliac]

The devil is clearly a white man....a white man in a white suit with white teeth that gleam in a big, white smile. He is a business man, a republican and he loves jello...

Stephen Colbert.

[Rev0lver]

I dunno. Even if the story does go back to Robert Johnson, I think it's sad, that religion had to stick it's nose into the story. I figure it like this. Religion was made up to be used as a way to control people. and then comes along rock and roll. It effects people in a mass (no pun intended) that religion can't compete with, so naturally it must come from the devil. In other words, everything that effects so many people so easily must come from the devil if it does not come from god. And let's face it, singing about drugs, rape, killing, sex and everything else that's been sung about over the years istn't exactly godly now is it? Religion was made up out of fear. Fear of the unknown, fear of death. It was the human way to deal with our fear. Once it was realised that it could be used to control so many people it was clear that religion found it's place in history forever. And besides, if selling your soul to the devil helps you make better music then by all means more power to ya!

20 point question: who said this and when?

"Hail satan if you please mooooahahahah.. BUUUUURP.. I'm just kidding man... maybe...."

Good post. very true.

and i think i said that last night.

[newwaytodie]

So much ignorance in this thread. Go read a book. Religion created to control people? Religion created out of fear of the unknown? Theres an original thought.... Atheists blame Christianity for every bad thing that has ever happened to mankind. Religion doesn't create evil, any more than guns kill people. People kill people and people create evil. Individuals who act on whatever intentions they may have in thier hearts. Thats the nature of sin. Choice.

And as far as satanism in rock? Thats actualy an interesting topic worth discussing without the ranting and raving of evangelist-atheists.

Music has always been a powerful "magical" tool, often used in rituals since the conception of magicka. Rock music does have a certain mesmerizing effect and many Christians believe this to be demonic possesion. When Elvis swung his hips onto television sets in the 50's it was "the devil possesing him" and making perform "lewd" gestures. Aliester Crowley, (If any of the brain dead ignorant dumbasses on this forum know who I am talking about) was a hated practicioner of dark magick and actually cut a record of incantations to summon different deities; to give you an example of music's role in Occultism.

Later as rock evolved even prominent bands such as The Beatles admitted to the Zen-Like, or adversely, demonic trances that rock music seemed to impose on performers and fans alike. We all remember the videos of teenage girls screaming and crying just to be a part of it all.

And of course with Black Sabbath the doors were blown wide open, introducing concepts like lyrics about satan, Christianity, and evil in general. Ozzy has said that his intent was to scare people, which could also be said of the modern church of satan. It exists as a scary sub-culture to accepted thought. Black Sabbath saw the hippy movement of the late 60's and despised it. It wasn't reality.... It was media sensationalized hype, and they saw through it, and in turn retaliated with thier brand of dark, heavy, gloomy and altogether real rock and roll. Of course an album titled "We Sold Our Souls For Rock And Roll" certainly caused a few raised eyebrows.

With the exposure and influence of Black Sabbath many new bands began to explore once taboo topics such as death, Satan, Christianity, War, Evil, and other great staples of heavy metal. Into the 80's and 90's some bands embraced blatantly Satanic themes and lyrics, capitalizing on the media's sensationalizing of the church of satan. Rebels of all kinds flocked to this once "new" phenomenon of satanism and it's sub-culture of heavy metal and horror flicks.

[Fallon]

So much ignorance in this thread. Go read a book. Religion created to control people? Religion created out of fear of the unknown? Theres an original thought.... Atheists blame Christianity for every bad thing that has ever happened to mankind. Religion doesn't create evil, any more than guns kill people. People kill people and people create evil. Individuals who act on whatever intentions they may have in thier hearts. Thats the nature of sin. Choice.

You post that and coment that my post was "not original"? You gotta be joking right?

Go read a book? Why do people who "read a book" think that they know it all, and that thier oppinion is the allmighty one? Those who read books and think they then "know it all" learn the oppinion of others and have not the imagination to create thier own. Man I do not only read books I write them.

due to the fact that it's immpossible to prove one way or the other if there is a god or a devil or heaven or hell... let's just leave it at this: people should believe what they want. what ever floats your boat you know?

look at it like this: wouldn't it be better to believe in god, then die to find out there is none, than not to believe in one and die to find out there is?



... people create evil. Individuals who act on whatever intentions they may have in thier hearts. Thats the nature of sin. Choice.

well said.

"evangelist-atheists" ????

I'm neighter. which are you?


Why is it that an army can kill millions in "THE NAME OF GOD" and it is ok. but when anyone kills the rapest of his daughter it's "A MORTAL SIN"?

Why is it that when a person in a pentecostal church lurches, jerks and talks in tongues is "possesed by the holy spirt" but when a person on television shakes his hips he is "possesed by the devil"? It's because of jealously and greed.

Power hungry people twist religion however it best fits the current situation. Governments do same same thing with the truth. It's all about manipulating tha masses. Greedy and power hungry people also take advantage of what ever sells. in the 70's and 80's it was "satanisim" in rock musik, in 2001 it was terrorisim.

It's never gonna change. as long as there are power hungry greedy people the world will never change.

[Rev0lver]

So much ignorance in this thread. Go read a book. Religion created to control people? Religion created out of fear of the unknown? Theres an original thought.... Atheists blame Christianity for every bad thing that has ever happened to mankind. Religion doesn't create evil, any more than guns kill people. People kill people and people create evil. Individuals who act on whatever intentions they may have in thier hearts. Thats the nature of sin. Choice.


and people create religion.

[gh2masterwellalmost]

I'm agnostic, for there is no proof for either belief, but religion is the most corrupt thing in the world, (well, vs money, thats hard)

[Rev0lver]

look at it like this: wouldn't it be better to believe in god, then die to find out there is none, than not to believe in one and die to find out there is?



No, because dying and there not being one is a waste of a life. Religion eliminates free thought, and your whole life can be taken over by it. If i were to die and find out that the christian god was real, i would accept hell. Heaven would be full of fools and cowards, and hell would be full of the smart and logical(and prostitutes w00t).

[gh2masterwellalmost]

No, because dying and there not being one is a waste of a life. Religion eliminates free thought, and your whole life can be taken over by it. If i were to die and find out that the christian god was real, i would accept hell. Heaven would be full of fools and cowards, and hell would be full of the smart and logical(and prostitutes w00t).

What I love best in the Bible (I know the Bible fairly well due to my Religious Studies GCSE class, in the words of my Dad "know your bible so you can beat the god botherers) is that you are not allowed to question God or test him - he's there, evidence or not, just brilliant :rolleyes:

Organised religion has greatly destroyed the world over the years. Although another God-obsessed man, Martin Luther (not to be confused with Black Activist Martin Luther King) started the first domino in the creation of protestantism. Catholicism believes in purgatory - in the 1500s if you wanted to spend less and less time in purgatory you had to pay for "indulgences" to the church... Martin Luther campaigned against this, with his 95 point list nailed to the front of the church - one of the first revolutionary moves against the monopoly of the church.

I think religion is brilliant, and I wish I had the faith - but its when one man says "to be [insert religious title here] you must believe in x and y", or in otherwords organised religion, that things go bad.

[LavatoryLoveMachine]

I dunno. Even if the story does go back to Robert Johnson, I think it's sad, that religion had to stick it's nose into the story. I figure it like this. Religion was made up to be used as a way to control people. and then comes along rock and roll. It effects people in a mass (no pun intended) that religion can't compete with, so naturally it must come from the devil. In other words, everything that effects so many people so easily must come from the devil if it does not come from god. And let's face it, singing about drugs, rape, killing, sex and everything else that's been sung about over the years istn't exactly godly now is it? Religion was made up out of fear. Fear of the unknown, fear of death. It was the human way to deal with our fear. Once it was realised that it could be used to control so many people it was clear that religion found it's place in history forever. And besides, if selling your soul to the devil helps you make better music then by all means more power to ya!

20 point question: who said this and when?

"Hail satan if you please mooooahahahah.. BUUUUURP.. I'm just kidding man... maybe...."

Um no. Did you fail anthropology? Religion wasnt "made up".

What songs about killing and raping do YOU listen to? I mean, sure, Ive listened to songs about killing, but its battle songs. What the heck are you into that you listen to songs about rape and murder?

Now, Im an atheist, Im not defending anybody but myself, but if you are gonna bad mouth religion, do it right. Thats why we cant grow out of myths and religion....because of people like you and your conspiracy theories.

Theres a lot avalue in the theories about fearing death and the unexplainable to be a cause for religion...but learn how to say it. You sound like you copy pasted it from another 5th grader.

[gh2masterwellalmost]

Um no. Did you fail anthropology? Religion wasnt "made up".

What songs about killing and raping do YOU listen to? I mean, sure, Ive listened to songs about killing, but its battle songs. What the heck are you into that you listen to songs about rape and murder?

Now, Im an atheist, Im not defending anybody but myself, but if you are gonna bad mouth religion, do it right. Thats why we cant grow out of myths and religion....because of people like you and your conspiracy theories.

Theres a lot avalue in the theories about fearing death and the unexplainable to be a cause for religion...but learn how to say it. You sound like you copy pasted it from another 5th grader.

Nice, very nice. Well done laddy - and similar to what my fellow member ^ put you know we're not on sides here, believers and non-believers, we're all here for the answers and the history of the answers which have been put forward. I am strongly against organised religion, for my reasons given in previous quotes, but in the same way I can see why people are for it.

You gotta fight it correctly or not fight it at all. Very well reasoned arguement there, took me by surprise...

[gh2masterwellalmost]

So much ignorance in this thread. Go read a book. Religion created to control people? Religion created out of fear of the unknown? Theres an original thought.... Atheists blame Christianity for every bad thing that has ever happened to mankind. Religion doesn't create evil, any more than guns kill people. People kill people and people create evil. Individuals who act on whatever intentions they may have in thier hearts. Thats the nature of sin. Choice.

I thought your arguement was correct, but I must call to attention what i bolded and italicised (spell check to aisle 3) and underlined. Now, this is of course a pro-gun arguement - I won't go into the pro's and con's of guns on a religious thread, but the analogy is not right IMHO. People will attack people nevertheless what restrictions you put on them - so rather than remove the people, who were not born evil, and who were changed by the society they lived in, so what do you do - remove their weapons, religion.

You cannot blame JUST the person for shooting a man - you have to figure out "are guns right? are they being used for the right purposes". The same goes for religion - you can't just blame the (for example) extremist-muslim for suicide-attacking - you must look at the extremist side of Islam, and this goes for all religion.

This arguement I used for anti-death penalty. No one is born evil - they're all small babies - but they are adjusted by SOCIETY or MENTAL ILLNESS (in the majority of cases) to do what they did. So, why not look into the bigger picture than just the smaller one...

Sorry for double post, I didn't read some of the earlier posts in detail enough until later.

[Fallon]

Um no. Did you fail anthropology? Religion wasnt "made up".

What songs about killing and raping do YOU listen to? I mean, sure, Ive listened to songs about killing, but its battle songs. What the heck are you into that you listen to songs about rape and murder?

Now, Im an atheist, Im not defending anybody but myself, but if you are gonna bad mouth religion, do it right. Thats why we cant grow out of myths and religion....because of people like you and your conspiracy theories.

Theres a lot avalue in the theories about fearing death and the unexplainable to be a cause for religion...but learn how to say it. You sound like you copy pasted it from another 5th grader.

I agree and accept this criticisim. Especially


because of people like you and your conspiracy theories.

I do have alot of such theories. And no. I didn't just copy that from a fifth grader, I figured it out when I was in the fifth grade. Like I said, this is just what I believe. I believe that rerligion was made yes MADE (organized, concocted, created etc.) to control people. peroiod. The bible was written by a bunch of guys who had chewed too much peyote. Sure, I believe there was a jesus but I do not believe he was the son of any god. I believbe in the supernatural. and I also believe he put way too much peyote in the tee he was serving his guests (later top become his followers).

I hate to bash religion in this thread but it just makes me sick that religion is the cause of "devil worship in rock musik" which by the way, is supposed to be what this thread is about and not about religion itself. But since we are here, and are discussing such things, let me throw some more fuel on the fire. I firmly believe, that religion, government and our limited school systems are teaching us to be conformists, and are restricting our free thought. It's sad that people only "know what they have learned". We need to be more intuitive and intuitional. Don't just trust and believe in the system question it at every opportunity. Otherwise it will never improve.

You know, religion has been being used for thousands of years to control people, as well as thier thoughts and actions. It's the one superstition we haven't yet grown out of (as a people).

And believe me, all this sounds funny comming from me because I have more reasons to believe in god than not to. But it's not a matter of believeing or not. it's about being afforded the choice. I'm not saying one way or the other, I'm just simply stating beliefs.

[Fallon]

No, because dying and there not being one is a waste of a life. Religion eliminates free thought, and your whole life can be taken over by it. If i were to die and find out that the christian god was real, i would accept hell. Heaven would be full of fools and cowards, and hell would be full of the smart and logical(and prostitutes w00t).

Really? you think so? If you die and there is no god, that would be a waste of your life? But isn't life what you make of it while you live it? I mean sure, if you lived your life for god, and die to find out it doesn't exist, you may be disappointed.. but still, you would have achieved things while you were living. And that's what counts. Because even though you may have been living your life for god, you were living it for yourself as well. you just didn't know it. and that's what religion does. it causes you to do things without realizing just why. or rather expects you to do things with out asking why.

Anyway, I think this is what you were saying on your post: :-)

Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways - Chardonnay in one hand - strawberries in the other - body thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and screaming -
WOO HOO! What a Ride!"

(the "Chardonnay and strawberries" can be replaced with many things):

A guitar and a joint
Whiskey and a joint
A beer and a joint
A bible and a cross

you get the idea ;-)

[newwaytodie]

There are consequences for every choice that is made. Christianity has a way of placing limitations on people who would otherwise destroy themselves. The weak minded out there who indulge in every single thing that is bad for them (whether they know it or not).

So your argument that all Christians are all narrow minded simpletons who are too dumb to understand the "truth" is completely unfounded. And also, are agnostics the new "it" thing to be? Is that "cool" now? Apathy does not breed progress. Without Religion mankind might still be the equivalent of the Geico caveman.

And I thought this was supposed to be about Satanic themes in Rock music. Am I the only one who commented on that?

[Rev0lver]

Really? you think so? If you die and there is no god, that would be a waste of your life? But isn't life what you make of it while you live it? I mean sure, if you lived your life for god, and die to find out it doesn't exist, you may be disappointed.. but still, you would have achieved things while you were living. And that's what counts. Because even though you may have been living your life for god, you were living it for yourself as well. you just didn't know it. and that's what religion does. it causes you to do things without realizing just why. or rather expects you to do things with out asking why.


You achieved what? praying and preaching with others about something thats false? you didn't analyze my post very much did you...

[gh2masterwellalmost]

So your argument that all Christians are all narrow minded simpletons who are too dumb to understand the "truth" is completely unfounded. And also, are agnostics the new "it" thing to be? Is that "cool" now? Apathy does not breed progress. Without Religion mankind might still be the equivalent of the Geico caveman.

Well, first I must stop ya there. There's no trend for agnosticism, at least in school - I'm criticised and called a "cop-out" for thinking how can you give an impossible question an answer without any proof, for either side. I learnt what the term meant as we looked into Pasteur's Gamble - something morally wrong for myself but the gist of it was the sorta answer we needed - that there is no answer.

In the UK at least, it's hard to be taught these things - we may supposedly live in a secular world, but education is deeply biased - I'm the only one in assembly who refuses to bow their head to pray, along with a few anti-group-prayer Christians. In the same way my striking political views certainly weren't formed from lessons - I had to spend a lot of time trawling Wikipedia and asking my form tutor and parents about what these terms meant.

So, to say its the trend to be agnostic, I personally think is a little ignorant. Of course, the amount of people going against religion is higher than say 200 years ago - because the church had a monopoly on us and if we said something was wrong "HERESY!". That is not to say the morals of Christianity are wrong - what Jesus suggested, if people followed it, we would be living in a crime free Primitive Anarcho-Communism society (something I can agree with morally but realistically is plain stupid).

Neither do I agree with fallon's generalisations of Christians. The majority ARE smart, but from a young age are told to follow this and that, so by the time of 8 or w.e. they're more than happy to confirm themselves, despite not truly understanding it. I think you have to remain level-headed with religion, not say "right I'm catholic so I must disagree with what the Eastern Orthodox Churches thought over filoque" etc.


And I thought this was supposed to be about Satanic themes in Rock music. Am I the only one who commented on that?

I did a bit on the last few pages methinks.

[thorn_9]

I am a member of the Church of Satan. The satanic music you are referring to is actually 'devil worship' music, and most the time is was a lie propigated to stop percieved bad behavior by kids listening to the music by their parents. The bands that do use devil worship imagery (slayer, black sabbath, etc) admit it is just to sell records, and has nothing to do with actual devil worship. There are some industrial/ black-death metal bands that are members of the church of satan and use it's themes for music inspiration.

Satanic music is music that drives emotion, at it's basic level. Some of the most influential satanic music is classical. The difference requires a knowledge of satanic philosophy and its difference from devil worship.

As mentioned earlier, it is due to the antics of drug-addict occultists like Crowley that were the instigators of all the anti-satanic fuss that ran through the 90's. It was the seed they planted that ruined occultists that would follow. They were operating on anti-judeo-christian , pro babylonian-sumerian myths to find power, breed gods, etc.

Any further information on satanic music should be taken directly from the source. http://www.churchofsatan.com or the Satanic Bible and Satanic Rituals by Anton Szandor LaVey.

[newwaytodie]

It's good to hear someone that is actually a member chime in on the subject. Although I do somewhat disagree with you thorn. Some metal bands out now may use satanic imagery to simply sell records, however, there are some who are openly satanic and produce openly satanic music. In the sense that the lyrics themselves are praise to satan, not in a tongue-in-cheek Black Sabbath-ish kind of way. Dissection for example. Now I'm pretty sure they are not "church of satan" mentality Satanists, they're more in the vein of "temple of set" mentality occultists/left-hand path followers.

[thorn_9]

You have a valid point. Personally I have the opinion on the ToS similar to the catholics v. protestants. But I am sure you understand.

Anything to spread the ideal of the left hand path :)

[Fallon]

You achieved what? praying and preaching with others about something thats false? you didn't analyze my post very much did you...

yes I did, I was just trying to be positive. Everything you do in life has an effect on who and what you are while you are living.

[Fallon]

Neither do I agree with fallon's generalisations of Christians.

hmm, eighter you are quoting the wrong person, or you misunderstood me, or I expressed myself in an un-understandable way ( which is most likly the case).

I wasn't attempting to generalize christions or any other religious group. I was and am always refering to religion itself in general.

[Fallon]

I am a member of the Church of Satan.

wow, I'm impressed

[polishdog90]

I think at first the media created the satanic images, but now there are some ****ed up metal bands that are actually satanic.

Black Sabbath was not satanic at all, but their record label put the upside down crosses on one of their records and that caused intrigue and sold more albums.

KISS and the whole Knights in Satans Service was blown up by the media and upset parents. Kids are always trying to be rebelious towards their parents so if there is a type of music their parents dont like, that often adds popularity to the younger generations. And since most parents arent satanic they find that stuff offensive and kids find it attractive.

Since people figured out that the mysteious-ness of the devil sells later bands also use symbols and lyrics related to the devil to sell more albums.

In the religion talk, I dont believe the devil actually exists, because I think that the devil was created by corrupt religous people to scare uninformed peasants into carefully following their religion.

[Fallon]

I think at first the media created the satanic images, but now there are some ****ed up metal bands that are actually satanic.

Black Sabbath was not satanic at all, but their record label put the upside down crosses on one of their records and that caused intrigue and sold more albums.

KISS and the whole Knights in Satans Service was blown up by the media and upset parents. Kids are always trying to be rebelious towards their parents so if there is a type of music their parents dont like, that often adds popularity to the younger generations. And since most parents arent satanic they find that stuff offensive and kids find it attractive.

Since people figured out that the mysteious-ness of the devil sells later bands also use symbols and lyrics related to the devil to sell more albums.

In the religion talk, I dont believe the devil actually exists, because I think that the devil was created by corrupt religous people to scare uninformed peasants into carefully following their religion.

HERE HERE!!! Exactly!! BRAVO!!! Well said!!!

That's exactly what I've been trying to say.

I think this thread can now be closed!

[thorn_9]

In the religion talk, I dont believe the devil actually exists, because I think that the devil was created by corrupt religous people to scare uninformed peasants into carefully following their religion.

Satan has been the best friend the Church has ever had, as He has kept it in business all these years!

-9th Satanic Statement

[gh2masterwellalmost]

Satan has been the best friend the Church has ever had, as He has kept it in business all these years!

-9th Satanic Statement

Totally agreed - Jesus in the Bible never mentioned hell. Ever. Yet, its a nice way of getting people in...

But, Satanism... its bit like me worshipping a window... I mean, most Satanists will be strongly against the way religion has been twisted for worse morals, but why THEN join a religion all about another fictional charachter?

Its like being a goth, the fashion of it, is a far bit off actually being the beliefs behind it... in the same way that Hell is often used in a slang manner for cool (guitar hero 2 sg flame finish anyone, even says "if you're going to hell, you might as well use this") then you decide to worship it. WTF?

But hey, better than being a blind fundamentalist Christian

[thorn_9]

But, Satanism... its bit like me worshipping a window... I mean, most Satanists will be strongly against the way religion has been twisted for worse morals, but why THEN join a religion all about another fictional charachter?

If you were educated on Satanism, you would understand Satan is a metaphore, and the only worshiped person is yourself.

It's not your fault for being ignorrant. Judeo-christian society has propigated the idea that satanism is anti-christianity. You are simply believing a lie.

[gh2masterwellalmost]

If you were educated on Satanism, you would understand Satan is a metaphore, and the only worshiped person is yourself.

It's not your fault for being ignorrant. Judeo-christian society has propigated the idea that satanism is anti-christianity. You are simply believing a lie.

Of course its anti-christian. All scientifical fact in the world is anti-christian lol.


It's not your fault for being ignorrant.

Now you know how I feel about you and many other members on the forum about aspects of politics.

[Rev0lver]

If you were educated on Satanism, you would understand Satan is a metaphore, and the only worshiped person is yourself.

It's not your fault for being ignorrant. Judeo-christian society has propigated the idea that satanism is anti-christianity. You are simply believing a lie.

i have been reading anton levay's writings for a few months now, and i agree with most of the philosophy of satanism. unfortunately what turns me off is when someone asks me my religion and i say "satanist" it gives them the wrong idea, as demonstrated in this forum :P

[thorn_9]

i have been reading anton levay's writings for a few months now, and i agree with most of the philosophy of satanism. unfortunately what turns me off is when someone asks me my religion and i say "satanist" it gives them the wrong idea, as demonstrated in this forum :P

Yea there is no way around this. With anything, there are pre-concieved notions. Notions that even when faced with fact, and honesty, cannot be overturned.

The only thing you can do is not care what others think. If they ask questions, and you know its not going to turn into a mockery, you answer. It's up to you to inform them, or leave them in the dark.

But know, you are the alien elite. **** everyone else and thier ignorrance. The meak have never inherited the earth, and they never will.

[LavatoryLoveMachine]

I agree and accept this criticisim. Especially



I do have alot of such theories. And no. I didn't just copy that from a fifth grader, I figured it out when I was in the fifth grade. Like I said, this is just what I believe. I believe that rerligion was made yes MADE (organized, concocted, created etc.) to control people. peroiod. The bible was written by a bunch of guys who had chewed too much peyote. Sure, I believe there was a jesus but I do not believe he was the son of any god. I believbe in the supernatural. and I also believe he put way too much peyote in the tee he was serving his guests (later top become his followers).

I hate to bash religion in this thread but it just makes me sick that religion is the cause of "devil worship in rock musik" which by the way, is supposed to be what this thread is about and not about religion itself. But since we are here, and are discussing such things, let me throw some more fuel on the fire. I firmly believe, that religion, government and our limited school systems are teaching us to be conformists, and are restricting our free thought. It's sad that people only "know what they have learned". We need to be more intuitive and intuitional. Don't just trust and believe in the system question it at every opportunity. Otherwise it will never improve.

You know, religion has been being used for thousands of years to control people, as well as thier thoughts and actions. It's the one superstition we haven't yet grown out of (as a people).

And believe me, all this sounds funny comming from me because I have more reasons to believe in god than not to. But it's not a matter of believeing or not. it's about being afforded the choice. I'm not saying one way or the other, I'm just simply stating beliefs.

Most of this serves as a joke rather than an actual belief...but the "I figured it out in fifth grade" was awesome. Touche.

But religion wasn't made. Yes, after the industrial revolution religion seems like just another business, just another market, just another product. Just because the modern world sucks, you cant say religion was made. Religion wasn't made. Not even institutionalized, because, you see, religion's purpose is not to control people, or take over the world. Thats the government's purpose. You see, the leaders of these religions ARE RELIGIOUS THEMSELVES. They are not hiding away, laughing at people for believing in their magic. They BELIEVE in it, they are participants. Unlike the government lol Religion HAS been used as a tool and weapon for political purposes. You can't deny that. Look at the great empires: the Romans, Charlemagne....they used it as a weapon for political power.

There is such a thing as religious control in anthropology, but it has nothing to do with religious leaders stealing money and laughing at people who believe them. Its about organization of a people, so there's no distress and crisis. Free thought, free thinking...none of that has nothing to do with it. You are judging traditions that are as old as mankind using justifications of rationalism and freedom of speech which are virtually new. Which is not bad, but you cant take them out of context and bash religion in itself. Religion in our times, using behaviors you've seen as examples...thats the way to go.

Newwaytodie said something interesting earlier, about restrictions in conduct religion puts on people. Im an atheist, I do think we are better off without god, BUT, a big, cosmological BUT, people are crazy, stupid, and have NO common sense, or any sense of foresight and longevity. The world would be chaotic without religion. Damn, its chaotic WITH it. There are actual lunatics out there that their only hope in life is god. Without him, they lose their whole humanity in a second. We are weak creatures, and very stupid creatures too. We cannot survive without religion. People are too crazy, and too dependent in smoke and mirrors. No offense to believers, but even you guys no that godlessness usually leads to trouble, sadly.

Oh, I want to add something to the satanic stuff!! Thorn, so you guys differ from devil worship in that its a hedonistic philosophy rather than worshiping Satan as an evil being of equal power to god?

Of course, I cant believe in the devil (its in the atheist handbook), but worshiping Satan is also a fairly new thing. It didnt exist before around the 18th or 19th century. I mean, honestly, who else than modern man would say that Satan is the "god of evil"?

[Rev0lver]

Newwaytodie said something interesting earlier, about restrictions in conduct religion puts on people. Im an atheist, I do think we are better off without god, BUT, a big, cosmological BUT, people are crazy, stupid, and have NO common sense, or any sense of foresight and longevity. The world would be chaotic without religion. Damn, its chaotic WITH it. There are actual lunatics out there that their only hope in life is god. Without him, they lose their whole humanity in a second. We are weak creatures, and very stupid creatures too. We cannot survive without religion. People are too crazy, and too dependent in smoke and mirrors. No offense to believers, but even you guys no that godlessness usually leads to trouble, sadly.


well, actually it would seem that way but the big atheistic countries in the world are some of the most peaceful.


Oh, I want to add something to the satanic stuff!! Thorn, so you guys differ from devil worship in that its a hedonistic philosophy rather than worshiping Satan as an evil being of equal power to god?

Of course, I cant believe in the devil (its in the atheist handbook), but worshiping Satan is also a fairly new thing. It didnt exist before around the 18th or 19th century. I mean, honestly, who else than modern man would say that Satan is the "god of evil"?

LeVayan satanism(the most common form) is what Thorn is talking about. they use satan only as a symbol of their opposition to the church, rather than as an actual diety.

[LavatoryLoveMachine]

well, actually it would seem that way but the big atheistic countries in the world are some of the most peaceful.



LeVayan satanism(the most common form) is what Thorn is talking about. they use satan only as a symbol of their opposition to the church, rather than as an actual diety.

Oh I see.

Which are the atheistic countries? Im not knowledgeable about any of that :/

Maybe religion is like any other thing you get too used to: its the people that most depend on it that would go crazy without it lol Guess it depends....****, I hate when things depend....

[gh2masterwellalmost]

Oh I see.

Which are the atheistic countries? Im not knowledgeable about any of that :/

Maybe religion is like any other thing you get too used to: its the people that most depend on it that would go crazy without it lol Guess it depends....****, I hate when things depend....

France became secular recently actually.

[thorn_9]

...Religion wasn't made. Not even institutionalized, because, you see, religion's purpose is not to control people, or take over the world. Thats the government's purpose. You see, the leaders of these religions ARE RELIGIOUS THEMSELVES. They are not hiding away, laughing at people for believing in their magic. They BELIEVE in it, they are participants. Unlike the government lol Religion HAS been used as a tool and weapon for political purposes. You can't deny that. Look at the great empires: the Romans, Charlemagne....they used it as a weapon for political power...
There was no unified christian bible until Emporer Constantine paid a panel of priests at the council of nicea in 325ad to create one. Until then it was seperate 'religious' texts and stories. Why did he pay them to create the first christian bible? so he could regain control of a disjoined failing roman empire. He helped CREATE the holy roman church that would maintain control and keep mankind in darkness for the next thousand years plus.


...Thorn, so you guys differ from devil worship in that its a hedonistic philosophy rather than worshiping Satan as an evil being of equal power to god?

Of course, I cant believe in the devil (its in the atheist handbook), but worshiping Satan is also a fairly new thing. It didnt exist before around the 18th or 19th century. I mean, honestly, who else than modern man would say that Satan is the "god of evil"?

Where Satansm is very self-centered, it is not hedonism complete. Hedonism is indulgence at all cost. Satanism is responsability to the responsible, indulge to your own content, not to the extent of others, necessarily.

The CoS does not believe there is a 'devil' as in the judeo-christian satan. There is no supernatural being to worship at all. No god, no devil. You are your own god.

Devil worship believes (generally) there is a satan and host of demons that will favor them if they act poorly or pray to them.

There is a HUGE difference that should be obvious.
Every religion had a 'satan' type character. Every culture had people who believed in it. From the ancient sumerians to the babylonians, egyptians, norse, romans, etc. There is always a bad guy in myth. A 'scape-goat' to point at and say that is evil.

BTW even in catholisism, where lucifer proper, was created, he's not a god, he's an angel. So your 'facts' are skewed.

[LavatoryLoveMachine]

There was no unified christian bible until Emporer Constantine paid a panel of priests at the council of nicea in 325ad to create one. Until then it was seperate 'religious' texts and stories. Why did he pay them to create the first christian bible? so he could regain control of a disjoined failing roman empire. He helped CREATE the holy roman church that would maintain control and keep mankind in darkness for the next thousand years plus.



Where Satansm is very self-centered, it is not hedonism complete. Hedonism is indulgence at all cost. Satanism is responsability to the responsible, indulge to your own content, not to the extent of others, necessarily.

The CoS does not believe there is a 'devil' as in the judeo-christian satan. There is no supernatural being to worship at all. No god, no devil. You are your own god.

Devil worship believes (generally) there is a satan and host of demons that will favor them if they act poorly or pray to them.

There is a HUGE difference that should be obvious.
Every religion had a 'satan' type character. Every culture had people who believed in it. From the ancient sumerians to the babylonians, egyptians, norse, romans, etc. There is always a bad guy in myth. A 'scape-goat' to point at and say that is evil.

BTW even in catholisism, where lucifer proper, was created, he's not a god, he's an angel. So your 'facts' are skewed.

Actually, you sound like you are attacking me when you are saying what I was saying. I wasnt saying Satan is a god....I was saying that devil worshipers see him as a god, and that only modern man would distort religion to cater to their own insecurities. So, I dont know why you went all crazy on me there.

About Constantine....again, you are agreeing with me yet acting like its a disagreement. But on this issue there is a bit of a misunderstanding. I DID say institutionalized religion WASNT made, but I was in a personal interpretation thing that maybe went a bit wrong. Yes it was made, but I was just trying to point out that religion is not a conspirator, working behind the scenes, and all that. Its just a bunch of crazy people (no offense to believers), from the Pope to the old man that always creeps me out with his fear of god attitude (although they can be one and the same too)

About evil gods:

I do know that there are evil gods in all myths/religions...although, that doesnt mean the people worshiped them. What kind of an antisocial would worship the god he knows, through ENCULTURATION, is evil and wants his life to go wrong? Nobody. (You can correct me if you know of this existing somewhere in time, as long as its not during or after the 19th century)

However, modern man is so confused, he says "Nah, Satan isnt really bad. He is good! Evil is awesome!" So he starts inventing all this theology around devil worship.

[thorn_9]

Actually, you sound like you are attacking me when you are saying what I was saying. I wasnt saying Satan is a god....I was saying that devil worshipers see him as a god, and that only modern man would distort religion to cater to their own insecurities. So, I dont know why you went all crazy on me there.

About Constantine....again, you are agreeing with me yet acting like its a disagreement. But on this issue there is a bit of a misunderstanding. I DID say institutionalized religion WASNT made, but I was in a personal interpretation thing that maybe went a bit wrong. Yes it was made, but I was just trying to point out that religion is not a conspirator, working behind the scenes, and all that. Its just a bunch of crazy people (no offense to believers), from the Pope to the old man that always creeps me out with his fear of god attitude (although they can be one and the same too)

About evil gods:

I do know that there are evil gods in all myths/religions...although, that doesnt mean the people worshiped them. What kind of an antisocial would worship the god he knows, through ENCULTURATION, is evil and wants his life to go wrong? Nobody. (You can correct me if you know of this existing somewhere in time, as long as its not during or after the 19th century)

However, modern man is so confused, he says "Nah, Satan isnt really bad. He is good! Evil is awesome!" So he starts inventing all this theology around devil worship.

I was just trying to elaborate on some points left hazy. I am not trying to attack anyone. I hope this is understood.

What we as students of the human condition need to remember is that the idea of evil and good are abstract and depend greatly on personal interperetation. Good is what you like. Evil is what you don't like. So there were gods that were in charge or say, running the underworld, or bringing the dead to judgement. They can be seen today as evil, where in their time they were seen as a part of the pantheon.

To say noone would want to follow an evil diety would try to limit the scope of human behavior. If it is truly an evil being, say like in hellraiser (pinhead) who will give you ultimate pleasure with ultimate pain, there will be some people willing to make that sacrifice. Humans will do what others can percieve as the vilest acts, in the hope of reward, even without it. How else do you explain a history of depravity spanning 10,000+ years of human civilization?

I think this thread has run it's cource however, and hope not to have offended anyone in the process. It doesn't matter what you believe if all you wanna do is rock! lol

[LavatoryLoveMachine]

Most depravity has been done, but not in the name of particular evil deities...not even in the name of good ones.

I dont know....I still think its part of the modern psychology to take those kinds of risks, because ancient people couldnt consider what's outside of what has been shown to them by their culture, just as we cant. So I dont know...Im going to have to look into it more deeply. I dont doubt there had to be "evil" deities and followers, but I do doubt these kind of thing to have happened within christianity. Sounds ludicrous. Sure, the Church did things I consider evil, but thats not the point. Im talking of the adoration of forces considered evil by everyone in your society, which I doubt would have been in a christian mind, even before the Romans converted.

[gh2masterwellalmost]

Most depravity has been done, but not in the name of particular evil deities...not even in the name of good ones.

I dont know....I still think its part of the modern psychology to take those kinds of risks, because ancient people couldnt consider what's outside of what has been shown to them by their culture, just as we cant. So I dont know...Im going to have to look into it more deeply. I dont doubt there had to be "evil" deities and followers, but I do doubt these kind of thing to have happened within christianity. Sounds ludicrous. Sure, the Church did things I consider evil, but thats not the point. Im talking of the adoration of forces considered evil by everyone in your society, which I doubt would have been in a christian mind, even before the Romans converted.

I'm not speaking for any individual person here, but worshipping the "evil" is fashionable. Its why skulls and flames are popular on picks - they're catchy images, which the rock music genre as well as fashion makes popular. If ya said "I'm going to hell" 200 years ago, not only would you be blasphemous, but as you'd be blindly believing in what your country told you to believe in (like it was back then) it would be considered horrible. But now, hell is "cool".

Its the way of all things. The force of Christianity, heck organised religion is coming slowly to a halt. You would barely get 1 in 1 mil being athiest/agnostic 200 years ago. Today, its 1 in 6. It all turns against itself - from hating Satan (which was based on a Pagan god I must add) to loving him. I understand thorn's Satanism is different to this - but for many it is what they do.

Like the poorly educated over here often have the Confederates flag so they can be "rebels" but they dont really realise the conitations behind it.

[Phrank-E]

Damnit! I got here way late.. Most everything has been said. My wife is in the OTO and her friend is a reverend in the Church of Satan. They routinly jest that although thier respective outfits are different, They are indeed in the same zipcode.

To Newaytodie - Crowley wasn't "dark".. There is no dark or light, Black or white. There is no distinction. Same as electricity.. it can be used to run a life support system, or run an electric chair.

Same for the Church of Satan...
Levay and Crowley were really just f'ing with people by perpetrating a "Sinister" image. Satanists are basically republicans without the bible thumping.

We also like to say that finding Satan was the best thing that ever happened to Chris.. He is clean (was a junkie years ago) and his business is doing well. He is quite happy in his life.

And to those wiccans who might come through here... Gardener was a contemporary of Crowley and so called "white magick" comes from Crowley as well. The two just went in different directions.

And I recall (back on topic) That a violinist in the late 1700's was perportedly to have sold his soul to satan for his gift of music as well. I am thinking Pagagini for some reason.

[Fallon]

Most of this serves as a joke rather than an actual belief...but the "I figured it out in fifth grade" was awesome. Touche.


thanks, and you're right (glad somebody finally figured it out :-D)


... But religion wasn't made. Yes, after the industrial revolution religion seems like just another business, just another market, just another product. Just because the modern world sucks, you cant say religion was made.

well everything was somehow made up or created (sorry for lack of vocabulary.) IMHO religion was made up by man. Allbeit for different reasons at the time than for what it is used today.


religion's purpose is not to control people, or take over the world.

it's not the purpose of this thread to talk about religion, but that's what it's being used for.... Nothing (especially religion) hardly ever gets use souly for it's purpose. Everything gets misused and abused at some point by somone. But usually the misuse and abuse is an individual thing. Sadly religion IS used by politicians, terrorists and religions leaders alike to control and manipulate the masses (as much as they possibly can).


You see, the leaders of these religions ARE RELIGIOUS THEMSELVES. They are not hiding away, laughing at people for believing in their magic. They BELIEVE in it, they are participants.


Now I'm not saying that all are bad. but a few bad apples do spoil the bunch. If it is so holy to strap sticks of dynamite to your body and explode them in a group of kids, just so that you get 7 virgins when you get to heaven or whereever, than why aren't the leaders doing it?

I apprichiate you speaking out for these people, but it's the same thing about discussing god and the devil.... there is no proof, only belief.



There is such a thing as religious control in anthropology, but it has nothing to do with religious leaders stealing money and laughing at people who believe them. Its about organization of a people, so there's no distress and crisis. Free thought, free thinking...none of that has nothing to do with it. You are judging traditions that are as old as mankind using justifications of rationalism and freedom of speech which are virtually new. Which is not bad, but you cant take them out of context and bash religion in itself. Religion in our times, using behaviors you've seen as examples...thats the way to go.


Man I'm not talking about antrhropolgy, I'm talking about today. the way the world is today, and the way religion is being misused to poison the minds of ignorant uneducated people.

There are just too many examples of religious misuse in the human history.

I'm not bashing religion, but the misuse of it.

the Traditions are not as old as mankind. but as old as religion.




people are crazy, stupid, and have NO common sense, or any sense of foresight and longevity. The world would be chaotic without religion. Damn, its chaotic WITH it.


thats a pretty harsh statement you are making there, and unless you are from another planet, you are including yourself in it. I thinks it's too general. Sure alot of people fit that descrioption but not all of us. And one of the main reasons we are like that is because of religion. the bible tells us how we should and should not live etc. hence no free thought.


New thought... maybe it was religion that made the chaos? it was sure the reason for millions and millions of deaths. (holy wars jeehad and all that sh!t)

I think the world would be better off without religion itself, not just god the devil, heaven and hell and all the stupid constricting sh!t.. (although it has been the origin of some damn good musik :-) )

But like I said at the very begining... "to each his own". I believe in live and let live.... as long as it don't effect me.

[Fallon]

The CoS does not believe there is a 'devil' as in the judeo-christian satan. There is no supernatural being to worship at all. No god, no devil. You are your own god.


I'm starting to like satanisim. it sounds like what I have been think all my life.

[Fallon]

What we as students of the human condition need to remember is that the idea of evil and good are abstract and depend greatly on personal interperetation. Good is what you like. Evil is what you don't like.


I think this thread has run it's cource however, and hope not to have offended anyone in the process. It doesn't matter what you believe if all you wanna do is rock! lol

haleluja brother! Amen!

[gh2masterwellalmost]

I'm starting to like satanisim. it sounds like what I have been think all my life.

The ideas seem right. But I hate the idea of it being a religion - something I detest, just as much as Christianity itself.

[LavatoryLoveMachine]

I'm not speaking for any individual person here, but worshipping the "evil" is fashionable. Its why skulls and flames are popular on picks - they're catchy images, which the rock music genre as well as fashion makes popular. If ya said "I'm going to hell" 200 years ago, not only would you be blasphemous, but as you'd be blindly believing in what your country told you to believe in (like it was back then) it would be considered horrible. But now, hell is "cool".

Its the way of all things. The force of Christianity, heck organised religion is coming slowly to a halt. You would barely get 1 in 1 mil being athiest/agnostic 200 years ago. Today, its 1 in 6. It all turns against itself - from hating Satan (which was based on a Pagan god I must add) to loving him. I understand thorn's Satanism is different to this - but for many it is what they do.

Like the poorly educated over here often have the Confederates flag so they can be "rebels" but they dont really realise the conitations behind it.

Well, I was talking about ancient people, not modern people and their rock music.

And pagans didnt invent Satan. Whats pagan, of course, is the image of Dyonisus, the symbol for evil in christianity: half goat half man. Satan himself is judeo-christian, something that reading the Bible would undoubtedly clarify.

But, everyone has their good guys and bad guys. Those we cosider good guys have theirs, those we consider bad guys have theirs.


Fallon, I had written a BIG elaborate answer for your last posts, but the power went out before I saved, so Im giving up lol

I dont believe you HAVE to be in some sort of group to be overly humanist, or free thinking. Not even the CoS. No offense to anyone in it, or that has friends in it. Every philosophy any group takes under its wings has already been out there in a school of thought, so nobody should feel like they have to belong to anything to be a critical thinker and "be on your own" without any gods or magical thinking.

[Fallon]

Fallon, I had written a BIG elaborate answer for your last posts, but the power went out before I saved, so Im giving up lol


I hate it when that happens!

[Fallon]

The ideas seem right. But I hate the idea of it being a religion - something I detest, just as much as Christianity itself.

I agree, but since I'm not one to label things, I just simply call it a philosophy instead of a religion. besides what makes a religion? The meaning of the word is this:
Religion is a fundamental set of beliefs and practices generally agreed upon by a group of people. These set of beliefs concern the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, and involve devotional and ritual observances. They also often contain a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs.

makes sense to me, but with that meaning, it could be applied to any code of conduct. My point is, lets not get stuck on the meaning of the word.

I think it's so cool to find a meaning to the way I have been living my life for many many years.

[xenopherus]

For the horror fans out there, there's a fun movie called "black roses" who's plot centers around the stigma of "satanic rock music". While a lot of rock bands endulge in luceferian propoganda (Deicide, Dimmu Borgir, Morbid Angel) that's sort of what makes that whole genre fun. A sort of rebellion against parents and a God-fearing society has always been exciting and marketable to troubled teens and sort of mal-adjusted adults.

[Fallon]

For the horror fans out there, there's a fun movie called "black roses" who's plot centers around the stigma of "satanic rock music". While a lot of rock bands endulge in luceferian propoganda (Dedicide, Dimmu Borgir) that's sort of what makes that whole genre fun. A sort of rebellion against parents and a God-fearing society has always been exciting and marketable to troubled teens and sort of mal-adjusted adults.

Thanks for the tip :o

[gh2masterwellalmost]

And pagans didnt invent Satan. Whats pagan, of course, is the image of Dyonisus, the symbol for evil in christianity: half goat half man. Satan himself is judeo-christian, something that reading the Bible would undoubtedly clarify.

I did not say the pagans invented Satan. If you actually read my post, you would understand that the Christians BASED it on Paganism, as it was the main competition. And try not to patronise me on the Bible - I know more about it than an average Christian, and maybe equal to your, what I assume from your writing, was fine education.

[Saltines]

And I recall (back on topic) That a violinist in the late 1700's was perportedly to have sold his soul to satan for his gift of music as well. I am thinking Pagagini for some reason.
Niccolò Paganini. Alot of people say he sold his soul.

[LavatoryLoveMachine]

I agree, but since I'm not one to label things, I just simply call it a philosophy instead of a religion. besides what makes a religion? The meaning of the word is this:
Religion is a fundamental set of beliefs and practices generally agreed upon by a group of people. These set of beliefs concern the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, and involve devotional and ritual observances. They also often contain a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs.

makes sense to me, but with that meaning, it could be applied to any code of conduct. My point is, lets not get stuck on the meaning of the word.

I think it's so cool to find a meaning to the way I have been living my life for many many years.

Ok, lets not get stuck on the meaning, but whoever gave you that meaning of religion is missing quite a lot of what it actually is.

[LavatoryLoveMachine]

I did not say the pagans invented Satan. If you actually read my post, you would understand that the Christians BASED it on Paganism, as it was the main competition. And try not to patronise me on the Bible - I know more about it than an average Christian, and maybe equal to your, what I assume from your writing, was fine education.

Again, they did not base Satan on paganism. Maybe the image and the symbolism for him, yes, but the actual character, no.

[Fallon]

Ok, lets not get stuck on the meaning, but whoever gave you that meaning of religion is missing quite a lot of what it actually is.

nobody "gave" it to me. It's my own thoughts and feelings. I've gathered this oppinion from all of my own experiences.

[Fallon]

Niccolò Paganini. Alot of people say he sold his soul.

all this talk...... what I wanna know is, how does one sell his/her soul? and while we're on the subject, hell there's quite a few things I would gladly sacrifice my left nut for.

[gh2masterwellalmost]

Again, they did not base Satan on paganism. Maybe the image and the symbolism for him, yes, but the actual character, no.

Thats what I meant. (the bolded bit)

[LavatoryLoveMachine]

nobody "gave" it to me. It's my own thoughts and feelings. I've gathered this oppinion from all of my own experiences.

Then you've missed the point. You gotta get into the thing you critisize, because if you dont, the judgment losses value.

gh2 master....well, then say things properly.

[gh2masterwellalmost]

gh2 master....well, then say things properly.

Well, although this could go on forever, Mr Neurotic (i.e. me) needs to get the last word in.

Read things properly.

[newwaytodie]

To Newaytodie - Crowley wasn't "dark".. There is no dark or light, Black or white. There is no distinction. Same as electricity.. it can be used to run a life support system, or run an electric chair.


I was just trying to associate his practice of magick with the perception of those who hated him. What I do find hilarious is that he devoted his life to seeking to attain immortality through his practice. So I guess he basically failed at that one.

And if the rumors about the things that went on at Thelema Abbey are true, then I would consider it to be "black" magick. This isn't really the place to discuss that however.

[cooldude93]

It was always just a tactic that parents used to get kids to stop listening to Rock music. They thought their kids would get bad influences for anything they heard, so they used anything they could. Devil Worship, Drug Addiction, Prostitution, anything.

For example. AC/DC got their name when Angus Young saw that his Sister's sewing machine had "AC/DC" written on the back, referring to Alternate Current/Direct Current. But parents turned it against them and said that it meant "After Christ/Devil Comes". It's all just a tactic.
really I thought priests said it meant anti christ/devil child........AC/DC is also a slang term for bisexuality

[battle_axe_of_doom]

fact is people are ******ed and it doesn't matter what the lyrical content of the music is as long as it rulez, it rulez. idc if its satanic, christian, etc if it rocks my socks, i'm gonna endorse that ****

[Fallon]

Then you've missed the point. You gotta get into the thing you critisize, because if you dont, the judgment losses value.

gh2 master....well, then say things properly.

why do think I've missed the point? I simply "got it" differently than you. Didn't you read my post? I said "from my own EXPERIENCES.. I have gotten into to all I remark on (not critisize). Thats how one gathers experience.

[LavatoryLoveMachine]

why do think I've missed the point? I simply "got it" differently than you. Didn't you read my post? I said "from my own EXPERIENCES.. I have gotten into to all I remark on (not critisize). Thats how one gathers experience.

Yes, but you cant use YOUR experiences as the only basis to form an opinion about something. Because, as you should know, the universe doesnt revolve around one person. I mean, if you are only gonna base your opinions on YOUR experiences with, in this case, religion, then thats as valid as the crazy guy screaming outside telling me, "please, care about what I have to say!"

The above is just something I wanted to throw out there. But I think that what bothered me about your definition was about "it applies to any code of conduct", which is a line I found out of place, because the thing that "applies", is not clear, cuz you were defining religion, not talking about things that apply. Also, religion is more than a code of conduct. Maybe it is only that to a psychologist, but its more than that. ****, if it only was a code of conduct getting rid of the friggin thing wouldnt be so hard.

[Fallon]

Yes, but you cant use YOUR experiences as the only basis to form an opinion about something. Because, as you should know, the universe doesnt revolve around one person. I mean, if you are only gonna base your opinions on YOUR experiences with, in this case, religion, then thats as valid as the crazy guy screaming outside telling me, "please, care about what I have to say!"

The above is just something I wanted to throw out there. But I think that what bothered me about your definition was about "it applies to any code of conduct", which is a line I found out of place, because the thing that "applies", is not clear, cuz you were defining religion, not talking about things that apply. Also, religion is more than a code of conduct. Maybe it is only that to a psychologist, but its more than that. ****, if it only was a code of conduct getting rid of the friggin thing wouldnt be so hard.

now I see what you are getting at :-)

just one more point: I do not live in a glass bubble. Although I do have problems expressing myself.. sorry about that. You misunderstood what I meant about gathering experience.. Experience is gaind by interacting with others, reading books... basicly everything in life you see, touch and feel is what makes your experience. And from that you form oppinions and create ideas etc. I do not thing the universe is expanding around me :-) The only way to use the experiences of others to form your own oppinion is to first learn about them, and them try them. or at least proove them. anything beyond that is in my oppinion pure naiveness. You just can't simply believe everything you read, hear or even see. (in our technologically advanced world, not even seeing is believing anymore). You must question everything. Nowadays you must rely on your own experiences because moste people are out to fu*ck you. it's sad but true.

The meaning of religion that I posted is the dictionary meaning by the way :-)

[Phrank-E]

I was just trying to associate his practice of magick with the perception of those who hated him. What I do find hilarious is that he devoted his life to seeking to attain immortality through his practice. So I guess he basically failed at that one.

And if the rumors about the things that went on at Thelema Abbey are true, then I would consider it to be "black" magick. This isn't really the place to discuss that however.

Of course those things would be percieved as evil or dark by Victorian England standards. But I'm sure any rumours are likely to be blown out of proportion like everything else about him. But my point was there is no black or white, Only individual interpretations. You say you consider it black, But some would not.

Besides whatever went on in the abbey or any gathering of thelemites was the will of the people. Black magic implies hurting others, which they will not do unless they are trying to interfere with thier will.
The basic philosophy (for those who know not) of thelema is "Do what thou will". As long as it doesn't interfere with someone else's will. It's not the Golden Rule, But it isn't the opposite of it either.

Here is an example of why Crowley is known for being such an evil scary man by the populace:

He wrote about sacrificing children in a book. Ok, He was talking about masturbation. But at the time you couldn't print a book that mentioned wanking off, But you could however talk about killing children. So he used it as a metaphore. Spilling seed that doesn't propegate life is "sacrificing children".

Now who is evil? Crowley, or the publishers and governments who think it is better that you tell people to kill children in rituals than allow talk of masturbation?

[LavatoryLoveMachine]

now I see what you are getting at :-)

just one more point: I do not live in a glass bubble. Although I do have problems expressing myself.. sorry about that. You misunderstood what I meant about gathering experience.. Experience is gaind by interacting with others, reading books... basicly everything in life you see, touch and feel is what makes your experience. And from that you form oppinions and create ideas etc. I do not thing the universe is expanding around me :-) The only way to use the experiences of others to form your own oppinion is to first learn about them, and them try them. or at least proove them. anything beyond that is in my oppinion pure naiveness. You just can't simply believe everything you read, hear or even see. (in our technologically advanced world, not even seeing is believing anymore). You must question everything. Nowadays you must rely on your own experiences because moste people are out to fu*ck you. it's sad but true.

The meaning of religion that I posted is the dictionary meaning by the way :-)

didnt you said you had wrote it yourself?

[Fallon]

didnt you said you had wrote it yourself?

yes, of course I did....

I think we are flying by each other at mach speed.

[jedbeetle]

Uhh, so anyways, i got these axioms from the Wiki on the church of Satan. you can see how a lot of Rock music and Rock Music culture might be seen as supporting some of these. Not up on my trivia, but i'm sure some rockers were down with this:

1. Satan represents indulgence instead of abstinence!
2. Satan represents vital existence instead of spiritual pipe dreams!
3. Satan represents undefiled wisdom instead of hypocritical self-deceit!
4. Satan represents kindness to those who deserve it instead of love wasted on ingrates!
5. Satan represents vengeance instead of turning the other cheek!
6. Satan represents responsibility to the responsible instead of concern for psychic vampires!
7. Satan represents man as just another animal, sometimes better, more often worse than those that walk on all-fours, who, because of his “divine spiritual and intellectual development,” has become the most vicious animal of all!
8. Satan represents all of the so-called sins, as they all lead to physical, mental, or emotional gratification!
9. Satan has been the best friend the Church has ever had, as he has kept it in business all these years!

[edit] The Nine Satanic Sins

1. Stupidity
2. Pretentiousness
3. Solipsism
4. Self-deceit
5. Herd Conformity
6. Lack of Perspective
7. Forgetfulness of Past Orthodoxies
8. Counterproductive Pride
9. Lack of Aesthetics

[edit] The Eleven Satanic Rules of the Earth

1. Do not give opinions or advice unless you are asked.
2. Do not tell your troubles to others unless you are sure they want to hear them.
3. When in another’s lair, show him respect or else do not go there.
4. If a guest in your lair annoys you, treat him cruelly and without mercy.
5. Do not make sexual advances unless you are given the mating signal.
6. Do not take that which does not belong to you unless it is a burden to the other person and he cries out to be relieved.
7. Acknowledge the power of magic if you have employed it successfully to obtain your desires. If you deny the power of magic after having called upon it with success, you will lose all you have obtained.
8. Do not complain about anything to which you need not subject yourself.
9. Do not harm little children.
10. Do not kill non-human animals unless you are attacked or for your food.
11. When walking in open territory, bother no one. If someone bothers you, ask him to stop. If he does not stop, destroy him.

most of them seem reactionary to Puritan level Christianity. They are essentially an atheists religion. Some of it is kind of cool - not for me though. I'm down with compassion, universal love, forgiveness, and the Lord, whatever form She takes.

[Rev0lver]

yeah, there are rockers that are satanists in that sense, but an extreme few of them.

[Parodygm]

most of them seem reactionary to Puritan level Christianity. They are essentially an atheists religion. Some of it is kind of cool - not for me though. I'm down with compassion, universal love, forgiveness, and the Lord, whatever form She takes.

Atheist's religion? I'm having a hard time with that! :D But yes, it's reactionary and it's just another list of rules and guidelines... an agenda that someone decided to push to satisfy their own basic cravings for self-promotion.

Like most religions, there are tenets and moral arguments that make social good sense and are appealing. But I personally can't be bothered with religious adherence. I'm tolerant of other people's beliefs to the point that they start impacting on my enjoyment of life. At that point they're displaying a lack of empathy that I find disturbing.

[jedbeetle]

Atheist's religion? I'm having a hard time with that!

i meant atheistic, sorry. "The Universe is indifferent," they believe. There is no God in the church of Satan. Satan seems to be more like a mythological role model.

[Parodygm]

i meant atheistic, sorry. "The Universe is indifferent," they believe. There is no God in the church of Satan. Satan seems to be more like a mythological role model.

No, I'm with you. I meant that the idea of an atheist with religion seems hard to grapple with. I suppose it all depends on your take on the word "religion".

I guess ancestor worship constitutes a religious practise, and Scientology probably does too.

I'm not really simply an atheist, non-believer in deities. It goes deeper than that for me. I'd have to say I'm more non-religious.

[thorn_9]

i meant atheistic, sorry. "The Universe is indifferent," they believe. There is no God in the church of Satan. Satan seems to be more like a mythological role model.

Satan is a metaphorical role model in Satanism.

That list of rules is not something to follow, it comes naturally to Satanists. We don't practice our religion we are our religion. That is why you are born into Satanism. You either are or are not. If you have to try to be one, you are not one.

That is the fundamental difference between Satanism and all other religions. Others try to adhere to tenants/ rules, Satanists are the rules/ tenants.

It is quite cut and dry, straight forward.

We are not atheists, as we don't actively disbelieve in an all father or god...we simply don't concern ourselves with the notion. We ARE our own gods.

The 9 Satanic Sins and the Eleven Rules of the Earth are a response from the Satanic communities demands from Anton LaVey, the founder of the CoS.

It's important to note as well, that most faith is created from ideas to change natural thought and or behavior...Satanism is a natural occurring idea in human nature and life.

[Credge]

Satanism is about as much of a religion as Atheism. There is no real worship of anything. It's simply a philosophical stand point. The only reason Satanists consider it a religion is in mock of other religions.

Deep down, almost all religions follow the same tenants as Satanism. The difference is that a good action must be done in order to receive selfish benefit. Satanism takes out the middle man. This, though, isn't an accurate view of either Satanism or religion.

[FrshChees]

hmmm...interesting

[thorn_9]

Satanism is about as much of a religion as Atheism. There is no real worship of anything. It's simply a philosophical stand point. The only reason Satanists consider it a religion is in mock of other religions.

Deep down, almost all religions follow the same tenants as Satanism. The difference is that a good action must be done in order to receive selfish benefit. Satanism takes out the middle man. This, though, isn't an accurate view of either Satanism or religion.

You have got that right.

[badtim]

Satan is a metaphorical role model in Satanism.

That list of rules is not something to follow, it comes naturally to Satanists. We don't practice our religion we are our religion. That is why you are born into Satanism. You either are or are not. If you have to try to be one, you are not one.

That is the fundamental difference between Satanism and all other religions. Others try to adhere to tenants/ rules, Satanists are the rules/ tenants.

It is quite cut and dry, straight forward.

We are not atheists, as we don't actively disbelieve in an all father or god...we simply don't concern ourselves with the notion. We ARE our own gods.

The 9 Satanic Sins and the Eleven Rules of the Earth are a response from the Satanic communities demands from Anton LaVey, the founder of the CoS.

It's important to note as well, that most faith is created from ideas to change natural thought and or behavior...Satanism is a natural occurring idea in human nature and life.

and this is what happens when a whole generation gets way too much processed sugar.

[PacoL250]

and this is what happens when a whole generation gets way too much processed sugar.

If that isn't a generalization, I don't know what is. This entire thread as been a relatively good discussion. Are you trying call out the practice of Satanism as fake or what?

Although I'm still a bit amused by the whole discussion; I'm a practicing Hindu (although I do openly question many tenets of Hinduism; makes for good discussion honestly).

So there's no "Devil" in Hinduism per-se.

My take on people getting all wound about Devil Worship in rock: Christianity/Christian-based beliefs tend to define good and evil. It's all black and white with a few, I guess "exceptions" (e.g. if you apologize to God and ask for forgiveness, you can still get into heaven; at least that's what I remember from what I learned of the New Testament). The "evil" part of the coin is disruptive to the socio-theological order of Christianity so I'd gather anybody who believes in the tenets of Satanism gets ostracized as a bad person.

I know I'm over-simplifying, but it's just my two cents; feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. :)

[kingbayman]

To put this thread a little back on topic...Rock music has been labeled as devil's music for many reasons, alot of them mentioned before. Black Sabbath with the crosses, ALice Cooper and his sideshow of a stageshow, KISS and the "Demon".

But Rock music, escpecially metal, is labeled as devil's music because of its actual sound. What I mean by that is, Rock music uses a note that was not allowed to be used in the previous few centuries. This note is the diminished fifth, or devil's note. It just sounds evil to the ear by it's nature.

The note is a very sexual note. And in the middle ages, sexual things were considered evil. So when people heard this note being played and got sexually stimulated, they thought "Oh no, Here comes the devil."

That is what gives metal it's evil sound and in turn its association with devil worship. Although the Norweigan Black Metal bands are an entirely different story all together.

[Chr1sK]

Go to highway 61 and 49 in Clarksdale, MS and at midnight.... then you'll have your answer.

[Chr1sK]

I agree on the Robert Johnson approach, clearly seen in the song Cross Road Blues. But we've seen plenty of devil worship concepts, sometimes I think bands do it just to piss people off, because of how much hate they get from religious purists.

BTW: Robert Johnson died at 27, for me he is the first true 27 Club member.

good points.. but during that time .. a musician that was trying to make a living had to play anything and everything. In Robert Johnson's case.. he used the blues as a survival tactic by seducing women for food, shelter, etc. This tactic is what allegedly led to his demise.

[jordan15b]

im too scientific thinking of a person to believe in god i try to think of a more logical explanation to how we where created

[Chadwyck]

20 point question: who said this and when?

"Hail satan if you please mooooahahahah.. BUUUUURP.. I'm just kidding man... maybe...."

Jaymz Hetfield...I think, though I cant remember when...

[FrshChees91]

I'm sick of religion.

[cuBERT]

Well, this doesent help... (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IVJ-QvgRGmY)

[Rockbandfan23467]

Really no band, except a few Scandinavian Death and Black Metal bands, worship Satan. Sabbath don't, they are more Christian than Satanist (See After Forever and the last verse of War Pigs). In fact Satanists don't even worship Satan, they worship themselves!

[R33DH4M]

Really no band, except a few Scandinavian Death and Black Metal bands

Dimmu Borgir is one but they have a few good songs.