Thoughts on Slash, GH, and GNR in Rock Bands future.

[Tiberiouslb]

First off I know there are other threads about Guns and Roses, but I haven't seen one in a while and I'd rather not bump a dead thread.

We know Slash has a deal with Activision as the "mascot", spokesman, promoter, or whatever for Guitar Hero 3.
We also know that Welcome to the Jungle was charted for Rock Band and was shown off at an early demonstration.

Now as far as I understand it.....

Rock Band had the rights and everything to put WTTJ in Rock Band, but decided not to because it might have jeopardized the status of Slash's contract with Activision. I don't know the details of that decision, if Slash requested it or not, but I'm guessing a large part of it was Harmonix's desire to keep good relations with artists like Slash.

As far as I know there is no exclusivity agreement with Guns and Roses as a whole that absolutely would have prevented the release of GNR in Rock Band.

Now my point is.....

We are getting close to the release of GH: Aerosmith and then GH4. At some point Slash's contract will expire or maybe it ends when the next installment of GH comes out as they will no longer be focusing on the promotion and marketing of GH3.

At some point in the future it will no longer be improper for Rock Band to feature music involving Slash as he will no longer be the active spokesman. (Notice that even the news of Aerosmith's exclusivity involves an undisclosed time frame.)

So in essence, in the (hopefully near) future we might be able to see some GNR in Rock Band. Harmonix has dealt with them successfully in the past.

If I'm right the future could be good for fans of GNR, Velvet Revolver, and of course the same thing would apply to Tom Morello of Rage Against the Machine. Of course I could be wrong, but I seriously doubt that the agreements with Activision would have a long term (more than a year) involved, even though re-signing or extending them to GH4 is a possibility.

[ForgottenHero]

I hope your right, I would love to see some GnR.

[OfChristandMen]

While your reasoning is sound, what's to stop Activision from renewing their deal with Slash? Hell, how impossible would it be for them to keep the slash avatar, and just make a GH:GNR?

[Tiberiouslb]

While your reasoning is sound, what's to stop Activision from renewing their deal with Slash? Hell, how impossible would it be for them to keep the slash avatar, and just make a GH:GNR?

I readily admitted at the end that they could renew the deal, but in the long term, I find it hard to believe that would remain cost effective for Activision.

GH: GNR would require contracts with Guns and Roses as a whole so it's not that simple.
Some bands are going to be very hesitant to go exclusive (without ridiculous guaranteed money). GH: Aerosmith might prove to be a litmus test for these artist themed games. If it makes a ton of money we could enter a nightmare world of exclusivity. Luckily for me I am not a big enough Aerosmith fan to be tempted at all.

[Tiberiouslb]

Didn't Activision drop their agreement with Gibson? That could have an effect on signing an artist like Slash. If Slash is a Gibson endorser (and he is) it would be very unlikely for his likeness to appear in a game holding another brand's guitar.

[cromartie90000]

I would LOVE to see GNR in Rock Band, but even more I'd love to see Slash's Snakepit in RB.

[TheKrazyKatzzz]

If all we got was "Welcome to the Jungle" that might be good enough for me, lol. Probably even if it was a (good enough) cover.

[sidman69]

well slash stated in a recent interview he got a flat one time fee for being in GH3 and he said he gets no royalties from GH3. But even with that I highly doubt we'll see any GNR. I think the welcome to the jungle video is blown out of proportion, it was basically one of a few test songs which included Live and Let Die (not sure which version), shook me all night long, taking care of business, etc. Plus they didn't chart the whole song, only 3 mn of it. If you're getting bands like the mother hips as DLC in rock band, GNR is way way down the road, they may not even be on the road for all we know, prolly spending the night at activision's house.

[Alright_Computer]

I could care less about GnR, but if it means there'll be some Rage or Audioslave I'm all for this theory.

[JJStyles]

The thing is, Slash isn't the only one that holds the rights to GNR's catalog. Just because Slash is in GH doesn't mean that GNR can only be in the GH series.

[sidman69]

true, if GNR is going to be in the game, it requires slash, duff and that company axl sold his rights to the songs to.

[Tiberiouslb]

The thing is, Slash isn't the only one that holds the rights to GNR's catalog. Just because Slash is in GH doesn't mean that GNR can only be in the GH series.

Thats kind of the point of the thread. I read somewhere that HMX didn't go with GNR because it would be improper for them to release songs when the guitarist was a spokesman for the other game. There has never been indication that they couldn't do it, just that they chose not to, and when the situation changes they could change their minds.

[Hysteria]

Isn't the Welcome To The Jungle RB vid seen on YouTube a cover version? If thats the case, whos to say they got permission from Slash or the record company to use it? I don't think I've seen a comment from HMX or Slash saying permission was given to use that song. I thought it was created just as a demo to show off in the beta stages of the game and they probably got the company that does all their other covers to record it. If it was a master recording, then I could see your statement holding water cuz the record company or Slash/Axel/Duff would have had to provide the masters.

[JJStyles]

Thats kind of the point of the thread. I read somewhere that HMX didn't go with GNR because it would be improper for them to release songs when the guitarist was a spokesman for the other game. There has never been indication that they couldn't do it, just that they chose not to, and when the situation changes they could change their minds.

OK. I understand what you're saying now. I can't wait until they do make it into the game since they're my favorite band.

[Tiberiouslb]

I think the welcome to the jungle video is blown out of proportion, it was basically one of a few test songs which included Live and Let Die (not sure which version), shook me all night long, taking care of business, etc
Legal implications would prevent them from using a song they didn't have permission for in a public promotion. That's far different than the other "test" or "prototype" songs which Harmonix never showed off.

Isn't the Welcome To The Jungle RB vid seen on YouTube a cover version? If thats the case, whos to say they got permission from Slash or the record company to use it? I don't think I've seen a comment from HMX or Slash saying permission was given to use that song. I thought it was created just as a demo to show off in the beta stages of the game and they probably got the company that does all their other covers to record it. If it was a master recording, then I could see your statement holding water cuz the record company or Slash/Axel/Duff would have had to provide the masters.
Any kind of showing involving any people not part of Harmonix (i.e. the Media) that could be construed as a commercial promotion or activity would require permission. As far as being a cover, all we can do is speculate, but that doesn't mean they didn't have permission. They already covered Sweet Child of Mine in GH2 and they obviously had all the permission they needed for that.

[Hysteria]

Legal implications would prevent them from using a song they didn't have permission for in a public promotion. That's far different than the other "test" or "prototype" songs which Harmonix never showed off.

Any kind of showing involving any people not part of Harmonix (i.e. the Media) that could be construed as a commercial promotion or activity would require permission.

What constitutes a public promotion? I don't believe the video was officially released by HMX. It wasn't an adverisement. I don't think anyone knows for sure (besides HMX) what the intent of that video was. I'm not going to get my hopes that HMX has a working relationship with GnR based on a cover version of Jungle from a beta build of the game, shown in a vid created over 8 months ago.

[Tiberiouslb]

What constitutes a public promotion? I don't believe the video was officially released by HMX. It wasn't an adverisement. I don't think anyone knows for sure (besides HMX) what the intent of that video was. I'm not going to get my hopes that HMX has a working relationship with the GnR based on a cover version of Jungle from a beta build of the game, shown in a vid created over 8 months ago.

A company showing a beta version of a game to any member of the gaming industry or media, without non-disclosure agreements protecting the release of that information, would be considered promotional activity as it affects previews and hype in the video game industry, as the video obviously did. It doesn't have to be an advertisement.

The video is far from evidence of a working relationship. However, Sweet Child of Mine from GH2 is evidence that Harmonix has successfully licensed Guns and Roses before, even if it was just a cover.

[Magnet]

I'm not really sure where people get the idea that Harmonix had already licensed WTTJ, but had a moral dilemma about it being "improper" when GH3 licensed it with Slash as a spokesman, and decided not to use it.


According to Brosius, there were only one or two instances where “Rock Band” couldn’t get a song due to “Guitar Hero III.” “There were cases where if one company did a special deal where an artist was a spokesperson for their game, it would be inappropriate for them to be in the other game,” he said, without naming specifics. “There was a case early on [involving] a deal with a record label where a song was exclusive to one game or the other.

http://multiplayerblog.mtv.com/2007/11/05/rock-band-audio-director-on-master-tapes-bumping-into-guitar-hero-iii-and-dlc-part-2-of-2/

This is all the information we have been given on WTTJ licensing, to the best of my knowledge. It's meant to be specific without technically being specific - so we can assume this is referring to at least WTTJ - and, at most: WTTJ and Bulls on Parade.

All I think can be gathered from that is that the record label (and I'm sure Activision was fueling it behind the scenes) deemed it to be inappropriate to license the song to both games when there was a spokesman issue going on with one of the games. I see no indication whatsoever that Harmonix ever held any rights to the song. (I remember the official explanation on the leaked WTTJ video being that it was from a build intended to be strictly in-house to get employees psyched about the game. If they had gotten rights to the song, the video very well may have been widely distributed via media outlets. As I remember it, Gamespot had the video up for a short period of time (less than a day maybe) before taking it down. This leads me to believe Harmonix thought it would be a straightforward licensing process, but did not anticipate the snag with Slash and Activision.) But had Activision not pursued exclusivity via the spokesman idea, I agree that Harmonix would have easily gotten the rights to the song.

I also agree that GnR and RATM for DLC is not necessarily out of the question for Rock Band (unless something in the contract for GH3 stipulates that the bands can't appear in the Rock Band disc or DLC ever). It's likely a timed exclusivity which may or may not be renewed when it expires. I don't think it would be surprising to see more GnR and RATM in GH4 though, so Activision may seek to renew these exclusivity contracts ad infinitum. Old bosses returning with new songs for GH4? I don't think it would be the most surprising thing for Activision to pull. But who knows? After GH: Aerosmith was announced (along with the exclusivity), I'm convinced Activision is doing whatever they can to lock up bands for the primary purpose of Rock Band not being able to use them. It's just a good thing that music is so broad and deep that the exclusive bands haven't impacted Harmonix a great deal yet.

[Tiberiouslb]

Thanks for the info Magnet.

Once again the main point I wanted to make in my OP was that if there was likely a time period involved, and that the new GH releases could signal it coming to an end.

And once again Activision dropping their deal with Gibson makes it somewhat unlikely that any likeness of Slash will appear in another Guitar Hero.

[PacoL250]

I also agree that GnR and RATM for DLC is not necessarily out of the question for Rock Band (unless something in the contract for GH3 stipulates that the bands can't appear in the Rock Band disc or DLC ever). It's likely a timed exclusivity which may or may not be renewed when it expires. I don't think it would be surprising to see more GnR and RATM in GH4 though, so Activision may seek to renew these exclusivity contracts ad infinitum. Old bosses returning with new songs for GH4? I don't think it would be the most surprising thing for Activision to pull. But who knows? After GH: Aerosmith was announced (along with the exclusivity), I'm convinced Activision is doing whatever they can to lock up bands for the primary purpose of Rock Band not being able to use them. It's just a good thing that music is so broad and deep that the exclusive bands haven't impacted Harmonix a great deal yet.


Yet, that is the concern everybody has, isn't it? That these "exclusivity deals" will hurt consumers in the long run.

However, I feel that GH: Aerosmith and the eventual GH IV will be the true litmus tests for Activision. GH I and II were developed by HMX and the success that GH III has had, IMHO, has essentially ran on the successes of the previous two installments more than the tracklist of GH III itself.

I'm not saying that GH III has a bad tracklist, but I am saying that the hype the previous two games generated, obviously helped to fuel the hype for GH III.

GH: Aerosmith and GH IV will be "running on the coattails" of GH III and it will be interesting to see how they stack up. If artists/bands feel that the GH franchise is starting to stagnate, then I'd imagine HMX being able to get a greater variety of them to license for RB.

It's the artist/band/copyright holder(s) that have to weigh the pluses and minuses. IMHO, it's best to maximize the money being made over the long haul and not sign an exclusivity deal (seeing as how Activision didn't pay much to Slash).

I'm not sure how HMX/MTV has set up the payment process to artists/bands/copyright holder(s) but if it is like a royalties system, that might be the best way for them.

My apologies if I sound like I am rambling. :p

[sidman69]

i think we'll see at least another GNR track in GH IV, i am putting my money on paradise city.

[master2uall]

Well for everyones info, AXL NOT SLASH OR ANY OF THE OTHR GUYS FROM GNR owns everything from guns n roses, he bought those rights from all of them years ago, when they were all strung out on dope and broke. Why do yo think there is still a gnr around? Cause its Axl's band . Hope that helps you guys out. By the way, he only gave them like 100,000 grand for the rights, but they still get royalties, but he owns the masters and ****.

[Quinarvy]

Well for everyones info, AXL NOT SLASH OR ANY OF THE OTHR GUYS FROM GNR owns everything from guns n roses, he bought those rights from all of them years ago, when they were all strung out on dope and broke. Why do yo think there is still a gnr around? Cause its Axl's band . Hope that helps you guys out. By the way, he only gave them like 100,000 grand for the rights, but they still get royalties, but he owns the masters and ****.

Which he sold.

And Slash, Duff, and the company Axl sold his rights to own the songs (not the band) that are from the Old GNR Era.

[sidman69]

axl owns the rights to the name, he sold/leased his rights to songs to sanctuary. Slash and Duff own the rights as well , but in order for a GNR song to be in something it requires the signature for all three parties, thats how WTJ was in GH3, there was no form of communication between axl and slash to put that song in the game. Of course axl sold his rights to the songs in 2004-2005 time frame. He was picky before that about where GNR songs could be used. The producers of black hawk down wanted to use WTJ in the movie, but axl didn't allow them to because he is a moron. There was a 2005 lawsuit filed against rose by slash and duff for pocketing 100% of royalties which turned out to be a "clerical" error.

[capitalfn9]

if activision ever got exclusive rights to GNR, i hope someone would burn their buildings to the ground

[xxpigxx]

if activision ever got exclusive rights to GNR, i hope someone would burn their buildings to the ground

*applause* :D

[sidman69]

*applause* :D

x 2 applause!

[juiceman23]

I just want some freakin GnR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Is it too much to ask??



Apparantly it is.....:(

[Bukkethead]

Random thought;

If GnR was exclusive to Guitar Hero... why haven't we seen any DLC releases from them yet? If Activision really does have all of these exclusives 'locked up', they're doing a stellar job of handling them. /sarcasm.

[Mushroom]

If we never get WTTJ, I won't be too bothered. I'd much prefer Paradise City, and it seems to be a better song for Rock Band anyway.

[sidman69]

Random thought;

If GnR was exclusive to Guitar Hero... why haven't we seen any DLC releases from them yet? If Activision really does have all of these exclusives 'locked up', they're doing a stellar job of handling them. /sarcasm.

that's what i am telling myself as well. I am sure by now Paradise City, Nightrain and a few others would've been released by now. It boggles my mind why they had a velvet revolver pack but no GNR pack.

[Jaacar]

I was under the impression that Harmonix/Red Octane made Guitar Hero, Guitar Hero II, and Guitar Hero 80s. I was also under the impression that Harmonix was involved with Guitar Hero III before Red Octane was purchased by Activision, shutting out Harmonix from the process and effectively taking over. That could explain WTTJ in early versions Rock Band, if both RB and GH3 were in development at the same time and having a good 'working relationship' with Slash at the time. Then comes the buyout and ... well the rest is history as they say.