Possible Reason For No Maiden Masters

[HeavyMetalKing]

So I went to the Iron Maiden show here in Maryland last night, and near the beginning of their set Dickinson says "So apparantly MTV just remembered that metal exists, and they approached us about starting up the Headbanger's Ball again." Of course this was met with cheering and applause. He then followed up with "We told them to shove it up their ass." Which was met with much MORE cheering and applause. In short, his explanation of the situation was that they felt MTV was no longer about the music and they only cared about who was dating who and who was in rehab. Seeing as how MTV is part of RB, that might explain why we have no Maiden masters.

Now, as to why we have Maiden covers, I have a couple theories. First, it's my understanding that a band can do a cover of a song without the original band's permission as long as they don't change any words. Apparantly if they change words it's considered parody and parody requires permission. But covers do not. Well, if that applies to music, then why not to music GAMES? Of course, if that logic was true then we could have Zeppelin and ACDC, so there's the issue with that theory, but then again HMX could know that a lot of people would just ***** about a cover. And yes, I do like to beat people to the punch when arguing my points. My other theory is that perhaps it was management, and not the band, that needed to give cover permission. I could see why the band themsevles would need to give permission for the master tracks, but perhaps covers are solely the discretion of the management. I dunno, those are my theories.

[killer_roach]

Covers require permission of the rights holders (for most songs, that's the label), and parody doesn't require any permission (First Amendment protections in the US)...

[Toxin066]

I'm pretty sure you don't need a band's consent to perform a cover, but you do if you're planning on selling that cover.

[HeavyMetalKing]

They had the discussion on the local rock station here. Covers don't require permission, at least not when performed that's for sure. Because if that was the case, almost every underground band would be getting sued for performing covers (you know they do). But it was also my understanding of the discussion that recorded covers do not require permission either because they were discussing a cover that was on a newer CD at the time.

[Ultimatum]

I'm pretty sure you need the band's consent if you wish to get the song cleared for radioplay, other than that, you obviously do not.

[madcow36]

...Of course, if that logic was true then we could have Zeppelin and ACDC...

i dont know about everyone else, but if we could get Zeppelin, AC/DC, more Maiden, MASTER OF PUPPETS... ahem... i dont care if its a cover... i just wanna play the song LOL.

one exception: if it sounds like total crap, then im okay with out it... LOL

[Jigen]

So I went to the Iron Maiden show here in Maryland last night, and near the beginning of their set Dickinson says "So apparantly MTV just remembered that metal exists, and they approached us about starting up the Headbanger's Ball again." Of course this was met with cheering and applause. He then followed up with "We told them to shove it up their ass." Which was met with much MORE cheering and applause. In short, his explanation of the situation was that they felt MTV was no longer about the music and they only cared about who was dating who and who was in rehab. Seeing as how MTV is part of RB, that might explain why we have no Maiden masters.


Y'know, that's a pretty decent theory, knowing Dickinson's distaste for MTV.

As much as I love Rock Band and Harmonix for making the game, I agree with Bruce one hundred and ten percent... MTV ceased to be music television decades ago.

[betlwedl]

I remember reading somewhere on this forum that we will never have maiden masters because the drum master tracks weren't useable...

[back_blows]

If your theory holds then we should be able to see Iron Maiden masters in GH:WT, since GH:WT is said to have only masters.

[chillzatl]

They had the discussion on the local rock station here. Covers don't require permission, at least not when performed that's for sure. Because if that was the case, almost every underground band would be getting sued for performing covers (you know they do). But it was also my understanding of the discussion that recorded covers do not require permission either because they were discussing a cover that was on a newer CD at the time.

playing covers live = no permission

recording covers for money = permission required

the masters most likely just aren't available or usable.

[Pennsylvanian]

Even if masters are available, sometimes they just don't sound good in a game. Some instruments may be washed out, or one track may carry several instruments, etc.

[Soja]

Sad day.

But I, too, agree with Bruce's disdain for MTV. I have a feeling that the real reason might be the busted masters or overmixed tapes, but if Bruce really loathes MTV that much, I can't blame him, and only MTV is to blame for being a detriment to Rock Band.

[lyricalcereal]

Actually, I'm 99.99% sure you don't need "permission" to record and sell a cover. I can't remember the specifics, but many years ago I was in a band on a very, VERY tiny label and the owner said all that was necessary to put a cover on an album was purchasing the mechanical rights to the song.

Here, I did 2 seconds worth of research (from http://www.harryfox.com/public/FAQ.jsp#6):

What is a mechanical license?


A mechanical license grants the rights to reproduce and distribute copyrighted musical compositions (songs), including uses on phonorecords (i.e. CDs, records, tapes, and certain digital configurations). The Harry Fox Agency was established to license, collect, and distribute royalties on behalf of U.S. publishers that own and/or control the rights to musical compositions. Simply stated, if you want to record and distribute a song that was written by someone else, or if your business requires the distribution of music that was written by others, you must obtain a mechanical license.

Mechanical rights should not be confused with "master rights" that are granted by a record company in order to use an existing recording, or with "performance rights" that are granted by publishers or societies for the public performance of a song. Depending on the use, one may also have to obtain these rights in addition to the mechanical license.

[geo2n2]

Ugh. I'd be very disappointed if Bruce was the reason for this. I like Bruce, but he has a very closed-minded view of things. He's only disappointing his fans if that's what the deal is.

I'm suspecting it's not properly separated audio tracks, at least so we have a legit reason.

I'm beginning to think we'll never see Maiden again in these games, which is really sad.

[JerryBrudos]

Ugh. I'd be very disappointed if Bruce was the reason for this. I like Bruce, but he has a very closed-minded view of things. He's only disappointing his fans if that's what the deal is.

I'm suspecting it's not properly separated audio tracks, at least so we have a legit reason.

I'm beginning to think we'll never see Maiden again in these games, which is really sad.

Most of maiden's fans dont play rockband so i dont think hes letting us down that much. I see his reason for disliking mtv maiden is one of the biggest bands to never sell out or go very commercial and got where they are because of the quality of their music, mtv goes against all of that nowadays so I dont really blame him for making a statement like that.

[Magnet]

Whenever music is synchronized to a visual (as in with video games, films, car commercials, etc.), for either a master or cover license you need the permission of the artist (or whoever holds the rights of the artist's music). Period. That is the reason we haven't seen bands like AC/DC or Led Zeppelin yet. They don't want their music used for these games at this point in time for whatever reason. Remember back in the day of Guitar Hero when all the licensed songs were covers? Back in Black was one of the first songs they ideally wanted in the game, but they couldn't license it, even as a cover.

So this theory, while interesting, holds no ground.

The drum track being mixed down in the Iron Maiden masters is why we're not seeing them used. They just wouldn't work with the game.

[DethBoxx]

Yeah, no permission is required for covers of songs on albums radio etc, you just have to pay. But if you want to put it in a game, movie, tv show, then you need permission.

BTW as far as I know Headbanger's Ball has been on for quite a while now.

[Ultimatum]

Yeah, but it stopped being decent in the 00s.

[Keebler]

Great theory, except.....

1.) You can't just record a cover of a song without the original artist's permission and try and make money off of it! You ABSOLUTELY need permission if you want money from selling the recording.

2.) Why would Iron Maiden give tracks to GH3 and not Iron Maiden? They obviously exist in some fashion and they could obviously make Iron Maiden money or get them notoriety if in both games. I sincerely doubt MTV's involvement in Rock Band convinced Iron Maiden to pass on more fame and money.

[geo2n2]

Well GH3 didn't need vocals separated from the drum track. If there are no Maiden tracks in Guitar Hero 4, the lack of proper masters is probably the reason. Since GH is going master-only, RB covers may be our only hope.

[SilentCricket]

and also iron maiden had a hit video in 2006 for the song "Different world" that Mtv played alot, so i dont see why they would be angry at Mtv.



;)

[HeavyMetalKing]

I'm just saying what came from the mouth of the man himself. Dickinson's whole message was f*ck MTV last night. As for why they wouldn't want more fame and fortune: honestly, with as long as these guys have been around, would RB downloads really make a noticeable difference in their bank accounts? I think they're at the point in their career that they can be picky about who they do and don't give rights to. And if they hate MTV that much, well...but again, it's only my theory based on Dickinson's statements last night. It could very well be the technical issues mentioned in here, although several bands have re-recorded songs for the game, so if Maiden really wanted to be in the game they could do that, which at least says, to me anyway, they're not too concerned with the idea. Either way I don't care. If Maiden has chosen to not give masters because of their dislike of MTV then I respect them even more for standing by what they believe instead of giving in for more money. If it's something else, well, I still respect them for doing what they love for so long and for being able to put on one hell of a show. Last night was amazing.

[David2380]

I'm just saying what came from the mouth of the man himself. Dickinson's whole message was f*ck MTV last night. As for why they wouldn't want more fame and fortune: honestly, with as long as these guys have been around, would RB downloads really make a noticeable difference in their bank accounts? I think they're at the point in their career that they can be picky about who they do and don't give rights to. And if they hate MTV that much, well...but again, it's only my theory based on Dickinson's statements last night. It could very well be the technical issues mentioned in here, although several bands have re-recorded songs for the game, so if Maiden really wanted to be in the game they could do that, which at least says, to me anyway, they're not too concerned with the idea. Either way I don't care. If Maiden has chosen to not give masters because of their dislike of MTV then I respect them even more for standing by what they believe instead of giving in for more money. If it's something else, well, I still respect them for doing what they love for so long and for being able to put on one hell of a show. Last night was amazing.


Maiden is one of the greatest bands of all time my friend. The quality and integrity of their music has stood the test of time. Will the next album be their last? I hope not because it will be a sad day when they retire. Maiden's music fits this game wonderfully...seriously, who wouldn't want to play the guitar riffs to the trooper(on RB, not GH2), belt out the great vocals to Hallowed be thy name or play the challenging and complicated drum beat to where eagles dare? If it has to be covers than I'll take it as long as we get more of Maiden's music in RB...

[CysticManatee]

This is a perfect examply of how, if Rock Band was published by EA instead of MTV (or whatever deal they have going on), people would be a lot happier.

[BillLauren]

i dont know about everyone else, but if we could get Zeppelin, AC/DC, more Maiden, MASTER OF PUPPETS... ahem... i dont care if its a cover... i just wanna play the song LOL.

one exception: if it sounds like total crap, then im okay with out it... LOL

I agree with this post.

[Soja]

Hey guys, I went on Youtube and found the video of Bruce Dickinson telling off MTV (http://youtube.com/watch?v=3tZJBfD7Cu4).

Guys. Bruce is the sh*t. Just listen to the man. :D

[David2380]

Hey guys, I went on Youtube and found the video of Bruce Dickinson telling off MTV (http://youtube.com/watch?v=3tZJBfD7Cu4).

Guys. Bruce is the sh*t. Just listen to the man. :D

Wow..that's awesome...thanks for the link dude...great song too by the way...(Wasted Years)

[WhiffleBallTony]

Man, you've gotta love Bruce.

[sarjent]

meh, court em with $$$$$ and have them re-record the tracks as new masters. It's not like they are seeing a profit from thier old songs these days. The little effort would allow them to have some positive cash flow from otherwise "no longer in demand" music. (I mean not widely purchased, not saying it sucks)

[Gocino]

okay sure bruce is the man but he obviously sold the rights to some songs. i understand we all need a paycheck but this stinks of hypocrisy. which is fine i guess because it makes business sense from both ends.



Hey guys, I went on Youtube and found the video of Bruce Dickinson telling off MTV (http://youtube.com/watch?v=3tZJBfD7Cu4).

Guys. Bruce is the sh*t. Just listen to the man. :D

[David2380]

meh, court em with $$$$$ and have them re-record the tracks as new masters. It's not like they are seeing a profit from thier old songs these days. The little effort would allow them to have some positive cash flow from otherwise "no longer in demand" music. (I mean not widely purchased, not saying it sucks)

I wouldn't really agree...I mean they don't get air play but they still sell out everywhere and as Bruce points out in the video clip, many of their fans are young which means many don't have the whole Maiden catalogue yet...How many other bands can you list that still sell out concerts all over the world, continue to make excelent new music(that ,by the way, kicks the **** out of most of the struff released today) and is still going strong 30 years LATER, when the bandmembers are all in their 50s??? Anyone???

[WhiffleBallTony]

meh, court em with $$$$$ and have them re-record the tracks as new masters. It's not like they are seeing a profit from thier old songs these days. The little effort would allow them to have some positive cash flow from otherwise "no longer in demand" music. (I mean not widely purchased, not saying it sucks)

The thing is that they don't give a ****, and thank god for that. They're bringing in millions from this tour, but they aren't doing it for the cash. I've heard Bruce say on many occasions that they don't give a **** about what any other establishment wants them to do, because they can get along fine without them, even though no one in the mainstream has helped them out in their career.

At the show last Sunday, Bruce said the best thing I've heard him say. "Iron Maiden will never be a part of anyone's ****ing establishment!" That's why they are the ultimate band. They are fantastic musicians, fantastic songwriters, extremely influential, still making great music, and, best of all, they aren't ass holes. This can't be said about a lot of other bands like Metallica, Led Zeppelin, and Black Sabbath (Ozzy is just a dumbass). Every single one of the guys in Maiden seems to have their head screwed on right and they also seem like intelligent people. I also believe that none of them currently do drugs and that is why Paul got kicked out.

Well, that's the end of my Maiden rant.

[David2380]

The thing is that they don't give a ****, and thank god for that. They're bringing in millions from this tour, but they aren't doing it for the cash. I've heard Bruce say on many occasions that they don't give a **** about what any other establishment wants them to do, because they can get along fine without them, even though no one in the mainstream has helped them out in their career.

At the show last Sunday, Bruce said the best thing I've heard him say. "Iron Maiden will never be a part of anyone's ****ing establishment!" That's why they are the ultimate band. They are fantastic musicians, fantastic songwriters, extremely influential, still making great music, and, best of all, they aren't ass holes. This can't be said about a lot of other bands like Metallica, Led Zeppelin, and Black Sabbath (Ozzy is just a dumbass). Every single one of the guys in Maiden seems to have their head screwed on right and they also seem like intelligent people. I also believe that none of them currently do drugs and that is why Paul got kicked out.

Well, that's the end of my Maiden rant.

Absolutely true...every word...well said sir

[Ardius]

The thing is that they don't give a ****, and thank god for that. They're bringing in millions from this tour, but they aren't doing it for the cash. I've heard Bruce say on many occasions that they don't give a **** about what any other establishment wants them to do, because they can get along fine without them, even though no one in the mainstream has helped them out in their career.

At the show last Sunday, Bruce said the best thing I've heard him say. "Iron Maiden will never be a part of anyone's ****ing establishment!" That's why they are the ultimate band. They are fantastic musicians, fantastic songwriters, extremely influential, still making great music, and, best of all, they aren't ass holes. This can't be said about a lot of other bands like Metallica, Led Zeppelin, and Black Sabbath (Ozzy is just a dumbass). Every single one of the guys in Maiden seems to have their head screwed on right and they also seem like intelligent people. I also believe that none of them currently do drugs and that is why Paul got kicked out.

Well, that's the end of my Maiden rant.

It's just sad that everyone overlooks the Blaze years, because the X Factor is one of their best albums by far, its just lacking in the production department.

[BAzombie]

Plus ..... Bruce doesn't want to be a tattooed millionaire. :eek:

Just had to throw that in. :D

I've been a Maiden fan since 1981 when I seen them in concert in my teens. Guitar Legends has an Iron Maiden collector's edition. It's an excellent read for any maiden fan out there.

Pay no attention to the ebay price. They're still on the shelves in stores for $7.99.


http://cgi.ebay.com/Guitar-Legends-Magazine-Iron-Maiden-Tribute-Issue_W0QQitemZ230262830992QQcmdZViewItem#ebayphot ohosting

[killer_roach]

At the show last Sunday, Bruce said the best thing I've heard him say. "Iron Maiden will never be a part of anyone's ****ing establishment!" That's why they are the ultimate band.

They're the ultimate band because they are, unabashedly, who they are... none of this wussing out stuff. It's possible an "establishment" group could be an "ultimate band" as well... being anti-establishment doesn't necessarily make you any better or worse, but rather what you do with that mindset.

[rockdawg-1965]

Heh... Dickinson had a rant at a show... how... not different at all. I've seen them about 20 times since '85 and can remember maybe 2 shows where he didn't have something to say. Sometimes it's about the nature of the genre, sometimes it's about MTV.... one time it was about the Sharon Osbourne, another about the music reviewer for the SF Chronicle another about the owner of the naming rights for the shed they were playing (used that one a couple of times) or about the stage being slippery... show stopping rants. SOme were fun some were annoying, but always a good time (especially the annoying ones where he starts to melt down).

ANyway, as for covers... I don't know where some are getting their info. You do not need 'permission' of any kind of record & sell a cover as long as you do not change the arrangement. The guy the found the link to Harry Fox is right on the money. A mechanical is compelled from the publisher. HOWEVER, since this is in a game with movements timed to it and the arrangement goes out the window if you don't 100% on every instrument, a synch license is required which you do have to contract with the publisher for. Iron Maiden is a special case as far as publishing goes, they lost control of it in the US as a result of the Sanctuary Record dissolution, so US publishing is shared between Universal and Columbia but is still administered by their publishers in the rest of the world. Probably tough to get them all to agree.

[m85021]

You guys do realize a moderator posted here and answered this question, right?

[WhiffleBallTony]

It's just sad that everyone overlooks the Blaze years, because the X Factor is one of their best albums by far, its just lacking in the production department.

I love Blaze, too. He brought a unique spin to the band and kept them together despite two integral members having left. I also think that Janick deserves better treatment than he gets. He plays some pretty insane solos and I've noticed that since he joined the band, the guitar parts in a lot of songs are more complex than their classic songs, except for "Phantom of the Opera". Every time I try to play that main riff, my mind explodes.

[David2380]

You guys do realize a moderator posted here and answered this question, right?

actually no...please enlighten me

[Hamsterhitman]

Heh, Bruce is funny in concert. When I saw him in April in Puerto Rico he went on some rant about how people should have antenna coming from their head or something like that... I had no idea what he was talking about. He also mentioned something about how Puerto Rico was discovered by Columbus 300 years ago.

[Magnet]

Seeing as how this has only become a general discussion about Iron Maiden, I'm going to lock. Feel free to continue the discussion in the History of Rock forum if you like.