Harmonix: Confirm or Deny Welcome to the Jungle?

[undertow]

Can a representative of Harmonix please take the time to confirm or deny the existence of the Guns N Roses 'Weclome to the Jungle' in Rock Band?

As I'm sure you and everyone know, there are tons of rumors about it's existence.
In the Noob Survival Guide, posted in early August it states Welcome to the Jungle will NOT appear in the game, but gives no link or proof/confirmation that it will NOT be in the game.

In mid September came an article from Portfolio.com that clearly stated Welcome to the Jungle was in the game and was being played by the CEO Alex Rigopulos. Important to note from this article that it mentions dots scrolling down the screen, possibly indicating the early build we've all seen on Youtube of Welcome to the Jungle. So while the article is dated September 17th, it could be much older than this.

A Link to the Article may be found here: http://www.portfolio.com/culture-lifestyle/goods/gadgets/2007/09/17/Harmonix-Profile#

So again, can someone from Harmonix please confirm Welcome to the Jungle's existence in Rock Band or let us know that it is not going to be included in Rock Band?

Lastly, if any user can post a link to an Official Statement declaring Welcome to the Jungle will NOT be included in Rock Band, that would be acceptable as well.

Thank you.

[Eman311]

"Harmonix cannot comment on any further song announcements at this time"

That's my guess for what they'll say :)

[ThePaska]

I've never seen this approach to getting a song announced, it just might work. :rolleyes:

*Waits patiently for announcement*

[rockst01]

I hope it's a big fat deny for Welcome to the Jungle and a big fat confirm for Paradise City. Why do you guys want more Guitar Hero 3 repeat songs? Plus Welcome to the Jungle is too easy for the guitarist while Paradise City would be final tier material.

[undertow]

I hope it's a big fat deny for Welcome to the Jungle and a big fat confirm for Paradise City. Why do you guys want more Guitar Hero 3 repeat songs? Plus Welcome to the Jungle is too easy for the guitarist while Paradise City would be final tier material.

Ahh so much to learn rockst01 :)

Welcome to the Jungle was already seen as fully implemented into Rock Band, albeit an older build. If Welcome to the Jungle is included in Rock Band than there is a chance that a full album would be available through DLC. As we all know, Welcome to the Jungle appeared on the debut album 'Appetite for Destruction'. This album, happen to have Paradise City in it!

Having Welcome to the Jungle in Rock Band, could lead to any or all of these GNR songs:
1 "Welcome to the Jungle" 4:31
2 "It's So Easy" 3:21
3 "Nightrain" 4:26
4 "Out ta Get Me" 4:20
5 "Mr. Brownstone" 3:46
6 "Paradise City" 6:46
7 "My Michelle" 3:39
8 "Think About You" 3:50
9 "Sweet Child o' Mine" 5:56
10 "You're Crazy" 3:15
11 "Anything Goes" 3:25
12 "Rocket Queen" 6:13

See why we want Welcome to the Jungle now? :D

Lastly, no sense trying to fight for Paradise City at this point, if there is video of Welcome to the Jungle already. If any GNR song is included on the retail disc, it is likely to be Welcome to the Jungle. We can hope/request other GNR songs, including Paradise City, later.

[Eman311]

I would actually think HMX would choose another GnR song once they found out welcome to the jungle was in guitar hero 3.

[undertow]

I would actually think HMX would choose another GnR song once they found out welcome to the jungle was in guitar hero 3.

The Rock Band version had a much better note chart than the one in GH3 (Go compare them, if you haven't already). Also, wouldn't this apply to all songs included in both GH3 and Rock Band then?

Either way, any GNR would be good! :)

[Symphonite]

Harmonix is likely snubbed out from GnR due to Slash's presence in GH3, IMO.

[rockst01]

No need to list the songs for Appetite for Destruction, that was probably my 3rd or 4th CD I bought ever.

Since Paradise City and Welcome to the Jungle are both on Appetite for Destruction, why would you want another song on the disc that is in both Guitar Hero and Rock Band? Paradise City should be on the disc, and then the DLC would bring in Welcome to the Jungle and the rest of the album. Plus, one of the biggest and most legitimate complaints about Rock Band is the lack of real difficult guitar tracks. Welcome to the Jungle would make a rather easy guitar track, going by the GHIII notechart. Paradise City is much more challenging and would help silence the GHIII fanboys.

[undertow]

Harmonix is likely snubbed out from GnR due to Slash's presence in GH3, IMO.

How do you suppose Harmonix came to include Welcome to the Jungle in the demo we've all seen? I believe they would not take the time to include a song into their game, even for testing purposes, and most certainly not for recording purposes (the people playing the game were full aware they were being recorded) and most definately not for an article in which the CEO of the company is found playing it, unless they had obtain license for the song already.

If Welcome to the Jungle is no longer an option for Rock Band, it is most likely due to a decision by Harmonix to move in a different direction, which I feel would not be smart for them as Welcome to the Jungle is a great song and would bring many GNR fans just for that song... as it will with GH3.

[Symphonite]

I believe they did put the song in as a demonstration of how the game works. I'm pretty sure that video was made before Activision made any deals with Slash or even announced their song list.

[SmokaCola]

Harmonix is likely snubbed out from GnR due to Slash's presence in GH3, IMO.


Why does everyone think Slash being in GH3 will disable HMX from getting rights to use GNR. Slash doesn't even have a say so in any GNR song. Axl is the only one that can make it happen, not slash.

[undertow]

rockst01, for the reasons you stated Welcome to the Jungle should be the song included on the disc and Paradise City should be a download. The DLC content should be reserved for the specific instrument parts, while the retail disc should focus on popular band orientated tracks. No? :)

[toefer]

Harmonix is likely snubbed out from GnR due to Slash's presence in GH3, IMO.

I think it was mentioned in the past that Axl controls GnR licensing, not Slash. From my super fast research into it, I gather that Axl sold off the licensing rights to all the songs, without the rest of the band's permission. So Slash in GHIII should have nothing to do with GnR songs being in RB.

[undertow]

I believe they did put the song in as a demonstration of how the game works. I'm pretty sure that video was made before Activision made any deals with Slash or even announced their song list.

If they just put any song they wanted without care of license, don't you think they'd risk a lawsuit? What's stopping them from putting up a demonstration of AC/DC or Led Zeppelin? They need to cover their own ass, I don't believe they'd take the 20-40 hours it most likely takes to create a song for Rock Band without a license prior.

[rockst01]

rockst01, for the reasons you stated Welcome to the Jungle should be the song included on the disc and Paradise City should be a download. The DLC content should be reserved for the specific instrument parts, while the retail disc should focus on popular band orientated tracks. No? :)

No, there are enough of the 'easy for everyone' mega-hits on the disc. It's time to bring in the big guns. Paradise City better be the final encore, well that or Hallowed Be Thy Name.

[foolosophy]

This is one of the situations that can go both ways because logically it makes sense if it's not in, but also if it is in. The chart sold me on WttJ, even after looking at GH's I'd much rather play the one we saw in the demo video. I wish they would just give us clarification.

[stlbss]

No, there are enough of the 'easy for everyone' mega-hits on the disc. It's time to bring in the big guns. Paradise City better be the final encore, well that or Hallowed Be Thy Name.

Submitted Paradise City over and over when they were taking requests earlier this year. Hope that it makes it into the game.

[G_tarRoCK3R]

Honestly, I was really unsure about buying rock band, and then I saw the Welcome to the Ju(n)gle video. This made me POSITIVE I have to buy this game, I hope to God they put this song in because that video kicked ass, and I want to be able to have the same experience.

Besides, altho Paradise City is a great song, it is extremely repetitive for the vocals.

Add a poll for this thread!!!

[Rock_Starman]

Forget what post I wanted to quote but they did Dope Nose as the first GH song and that's yet to be in any game since. (It was in Amplitude but that was before GH)

[Quastor]

If they just put any song they wanted without care of license, don't you think they'd risk a lawsuit? What's stopping them from putting up a demonstration of AC/DC or Led Zeppelin? They need to cover their own ass, I don't believe they'd take the 20-40 hours it most likely takes to create a song for Rock Band without a license prior.

First off, that video of Welcome to the Jungle was never meant to be seen outside of Harmonix. It's hard to sue someone when you can't prove that the copyright infringement caused damage.

Also, while they're building the Rock Band engine, what do you think they're testing it with? The engine development has to be started long before any songs are going to be licensed and confirmed. They need something to be able to show off to the record labels in order to get these licenses. It's 100% possible they created the notechart prior to even trying to get the license, and this is exactly what happened. Only now, they don't have the license for it, otherwise it would have been announced.

If they had licenses it to be on the disc, with GH3 having announced it as well, it's really not ammo in the gun. It'll make a lot of people happy, yes, but it won't in any way be a staggering announce like Zep would be.

[ThePaska]

At this time I'll direct you to the post by Sean which talks about the video and what it was.

About the "trailer" you may have seen (http://community.rockband.com/vbforum/showthread.php?t=955)

"The song was one we have considered for the game but haven't locked down, and you may have noticed that the trailer footage was made so long ago that the people in the video are playing old instruments and prototypes."

[toefer]

I think it's possible that the video was more of a "proof of concept" type thing, which they might have used to pitch the idea of their game to companies (like EA) and whatever. Or maybe to show their bosses at MTV. In any case, I'm pretty sure the video wasn't meant to be leaked, and they can quickly add whatever song they want into the game, just to play around, and not worry about legal issues, much like how anyone on these boards can make a home video with unlicensed music in it.

To the person who mentioned the amount of time it takes to code the song, keep in mind that they probably didn't do anything with the synching, in terms of the graphics (maybe they did, I haven't seen the video in a while, and I don't know if they show close ups of the actual game for any extended period of time), plus they likely only whipped together 1 set of note charts, and you get the idea. They probably spent only a small amount of time on putting the song together.

All that said, I do hope GnR is in the game, but count me on the side of Paradise City.

[foolosophy]

Not to mention even if it's not included in the retail game HMX can always play it for themselves behind closed doors on their testing copies ;)

[Magnet]

Okay, here's what we know about Welcome to the Jungle and Rock Band...

It's pretty easy to tell that the infamous demo video is a cover of the song. The demo contained several songs where not all the licensing was cleared beforehand. Why was licensing not required for the songs in the demo? For the same reason you don't need licensing to get together with your friends and cover a Beatles song privately in your garage. Licensing is only required when you're going to make copies of the song to distribute or if you plan to broadcast the song publicly. The conference where HMX showed off their game was intended to be private. So it was legit without licensing.

Why did the demo have those particular songs? Well, it was to test out the game and get everyone working on it really pumped about its potential. WttJ seems like a winner for that. Obviously all the songs in the demo were being considered for the game, but the build was really only for internal use.

The trailer video featuring HMX employees playing WttJ during that conference was leaked via Gamespot, among other sites. Some people, including me, were lucky enough to download the original higher quality version while it was up. (Unfortunately I lost my copy when my external HD died - anyone that still has the original is welcome to please PM me...um, about the weather.) It was quickly taken down and then it appeared on youtube where it resides today.

Is it in the game? Well, it was certainly intended for consideration. Here are reasons why it will/won't be in the game...

Keep this quote (http://community.rockband.com/vbforum/showpost.php?p=7695&postcount=1) from hmxsean in mind (since I will reference it)...


The song was one we have considered for the game but haven't locked down,

...

We'll be releasing a lot of info next week from much newer builds of the game with finalized songs.

Why it will be in the game...

Harmonix cared enough to create a cover of the song for the testing phase. Unlike the Dope Nose test for Guitar Hero where they still had easy access to the master track (or digital equivalent) from Amplitude, they actually went and created some covers for the testing of Rock Band. Creating covers can be time consuming, and they wouldn't bother if they weren't enthusiastic about the song. They covered WttJ for an early testing build instead of just using a master lying around of something like Dope Nose because they genuinely wanted to hear that song in particular in the game, and they didn't have access to a master yet. Chances are that the song was a strong contender for the retail disc.

The video's quick removal from sites like Gamespot and CNET (that presumably were given the footage and originally supposed to have the video up to get the public excited about the game) may not suggest that the song won't be in the game. I remember a video of Mississippi Queen from E3 was put on Kotaku and quickly taken down. Of course, the song had already been confirmed for the game prior to the video. So videos featuring songs that are in the game can even be speedily removed for unknown reasons. It's possible that MQ was not licensed for promotion material like that so it couldn't be legitimately distributed. We know that WttJ was not licensed for promotion whatsoever at the time the video was shot and maybe, if it was licensed after the video creation and before the video was disseminated, it was simply not licensed for promotional use - so it had to be removed for that reason. Of course, it's also likely that it wasn't licensed at all by the time the video leaked, but it may have been since then.

Also, Welcome to the Jungle has been licensed for Guitar Hero III. That means that the master is perfectly usable for rhythm games, and there's a great possibility that a licensing opportunity exists for the song's use in Rock Band. Some people seem to think that Slash's presence in Guitar Hero III somehow makes the song unattainable in Rock Band, but Slash is likely completely irrelevant in the licensing of Guns N' Roses music. The song's presence in Guitar Hero III makes for an even stronger case for the song also popping up in Rock Band.

If by "locked down" Sean meant licensing, there's a good chance that it'll make it in the game. Even if it took a while - they ended up getting 5 late song licenses recently boosting the count from 40 to 45. They may very well have been keeping it under wraps to surprise everyone closer to release, and if it's in the game, I would probably expect an announcement of it before Guitar Hero III is released.

After over three-and-a-half months since the WttJ video, the publishers/developers have never explicitly denied that it was in the game. The most we've really gotten was that is "wasn't official." This alone may cause some to believe that it could still be in the game. Not denying the song is also reason to believe that even if it's not in the shipped game, they are still trying to license it as DLC. Why deny it only to have it show up as DLC four months later when licensing finally goes through? I think their refusal for an explicit denial is an indication that even though it may not be in the game, they're still trying to get it (or have already gotten it) in the game via DLC.

Why it won't be in the game...

Licensing deals fall through sometimes for any kind of reason. Sometimes licensing deals are never even struck to begin with. Now, people suggest that they didn't cover the song for nothing; therefore it will appear in the game. They're right that they didn't cover it for nothing. It was useful for testing the game and probably considered as well as a song for the final game. But realistically, they would be using a master version anyway if it were in the game so the cover would be useless. Also, don't forget that "I Want Candy" was covered, announced, and even sent out in the press copies of the 80s Guitar Hero game before it disappeared when the licensing fell through. When licensing is involved, all sorts of unforeseen, messy things can happen.

The video's quick removal from sites like Gamespot and CNET may, on the other hand, somewhat suggest that the song won't be in the game. It's very hazardous to okay that video when your licensing did not go through as planned. This may indicate that the song just plain couldn't be licensed at all. I think the very idea that the video was distributed to these sites is indicative of an MTV/HMX attempt to get licensing for the song and use it for that first promo trailer. When a video intended for promotion is removed for licensing, it's not a good sign at all. Licensing may have flat fallen through early on meaning there's not a chance it's coming for the retail disc.

If by "locked down" Sean meant just making the final list of potential songs (something probably along the lines of 100 songs they'd try to obtain licensing for and then put in the best of what they get), then there's a chance it won't be in the game. If the song never passed the consideration phase and entered the licensing-attempts phase, it's game over for the retail disc. Sean mentions that new info with finalized songs would be coming next week (this was in early July). One might assume that would be the time to announce WttJ if it were finalized so they could clear up the whole thing quickly. Welcome to the Jungle is, of course, absent from that batch of finalized songs and everything since then, which seems to suggest that it's simply not coming. And it's probably not coming unless they really wanted to keep this a huge secret or it was one of those last 5 song licenses that came through. Personally, if it's not announced by the end of October (especially given the possible marketing from the press with a "hey wait and you get to play drums and sing in our game too" GHIII comparison to try to draw in a few more consumers), I would abandon most, if not all, hope.

When we'll know for sure whether or not it's in the retail disc...

In less than four weeks. ;)

[ThePaska]

You make some very interesting points magnet, I tend to lean more towards the reasons why it would be in the game. That might just be because I really want it in the game. (Nothing pumped me up more for Rock Band than seeing that video the first time) By "Locking Down" Sean most definately mean licensing, its up in the air whether or not it has been though, but if GH III is any indication, then I have a feeling WttJ is the last song that both these games have in common. Only time will tell though, not long now anyways.

[defmonkey]

Paradise City is much more challenging and would help silence the GHIII fanboys.

And we do need to be silenced. :p

I'm a huge Rock Band fan, can't wait for the damn game, but guitar does seem a bit easy, and GHIII looks like its on crack or something.

Hopefully Foreplay/Long Time will be challenging on Guitar!

[IbanezBassist_v2]

Actually, Sean had confirmed that this was in a prototype and was never even meant to see the light of day. The video got leaked, as far as I can remember he just said it was something that was thrown together to make the idea more tangible.

(EDIT) Just read Magnets post. Pretty much the same thing in a dumbed down version.

[Apples]

Actually, Sean had confirmed that this was in a prototype and was never even meant to see the light of day. The video got leaked, as far as I can remember he just said it was something that was thrown together to make the idea more tangible.

(EDIT) Just read Magnets post. Pretty much the same thing in a dumbed down version.

Yeah, this sums it up, no need to drag this topic out further. You have your answer. :D