WBT difficulty progression

[ZkDotNet]

This is from sluggo of SH/GameSpy fame:


Based on our world tour playtesting, difficulty does play a little role. When you start, relatively easy songs are available to you. As you work your way through the different cities, not only do the songs get more complicated, but you're gradually forced to play at a certain skill level -- for instance, our band has just reached a point where all four players have to play on Hard or better. We're now wondering if the entire band will have to play everything on Expert when we reach the final sets.

Here's some clarification:


Just to clarify - there's nothing that's 'expert or bust'.

Once you're touring the world, you'll need to bump up to medium to progress to the big setlists like the Endlist Setlist. We also have some 'hardcore' side quests you can undertake that require hard or above, but these are optional - like the rest of the BWT.

[CableCarrier]

Crap. This does not bode well for my bass/vocals plan.

[TheTogfather]

Yikes. I mean, yes...this makes sense and is logical, but definately rules out my singing/bassing plans for getting through world tour...guess I just have to make friends...no way around it. Oh, and they have to be good...hmm.

[HeXcoda]

Crap. This does not bode well for my bass/vocals plan.

Mine's out the window, too. I was expecting that, though... games typically lock away the last 1/4thish of content until you can master higher difficulties.

Hell, this throws out the window my plans for recruiting family and other locals -- no way are they going to get to the point where they're throwing down in hard/expert on ANY instrument. I guess BWT is not meant to be casual gamer friendly.

[Bakkster]

Crap. This does not bode well for my bass/vocals plan.

That just means people like us have to get REALLY good ;)

[CableCarrier]

That just means people like us have to get REALLY good ;)

Hell yes. I'd better soundproof my dorm room.

[Maherj]

Wow, I think this is another great feature. The tour dynamics are really shaping up to be an awesome gameplay mode. How cool is that, when the songs get harder, everyone in the band has to pull the same weight.

Of course you'll be able to play the tracks on easy/medium in Quickplay, so if you have friends/family that aren't really up to par, Quickplay is still going to be a great option. However, I like the idea of progression, and I think that the more WBT you play, you'll be suprised how they're able to start playing on hard modes.

[HeXcoda]

I think that the more WBT you play, you'll be suprised how they're able to start playing on hard modes.

Until they ram head first into the "Skill Wall" and can progress no further. Especially a problem for non-gamers you shanghai into playing this thing, and definitely a problem for aging gamers such as myself who no longer have the reflexes of a 13 year old. At that point, you're pretty much just stuck.

This wasn't a problem in GH2, because the skill wall is set at Medium -- once you clear the game on medium you have all the unlocks and can experience 100% of the game's content, aside from a few trivial funny looking guitars. But in RB, an entire game mode only works if you have a sufficient number of locally gathered highly skilled people. That is NOT casual gamer friendly, and quite disappointing.

It's hard to gain any sympathy on forums for being stuck behind a Skill Wall, I realize... typical responses are "L2P N00B". But it's a fact of life, for some of us, and it's not for lack of trying.

[foolosophy]

Is Endless Setlist part of WBT? I can only fear the requirements of everyone playing on Expert. It can prove for some heart-breaking fails.

[HeXcoda]

Is Endless Setlist part of WBT? I can only fear the requirements of everyone playing on Expert. It can prove for some heart-breaking fails.

It is part of WBT, but it seems it starts at Medium, according to the achievements:
http://xbox360achievements.org/achievements.php?gameID=291

[foolosophy]

It is part of WBT, but it seems it starts at Medium, according to the achievements:
http://xbox360achievements.org/achievements.php?gameID=291

Ah quite right. Someone's going to have to rack up that Platinum Artist achievement though so if it works virally we can spread it through online.

[Edgehopper]

Until they ram head first into the "Skill Wall" and can progress no further. Especially a problem for non-gamers you shanghai into playing this thing, and definitely a problem for aging gamers such as myself who no longer have the reflexes of a 13 year old. At that point, you're pretty much just stuck.

This wasn't a problem in GH2, because the skill wall is set at Medium -- once you clear the game on medium you have all the unlocks and can experience 100% of the game's content, aside from a few trivial funny looking guitars. But in RB, an entire game mode only works if you have a sufficient number of locally gathered highly skilled people. That is NOT casual gamer friendly, and quite disappointing.

It's hard to gain any sympathy on forums for being stuck behind a Skill Wall, I realize... typical responses are "L2P N00B". But it's a fact of life, for some of us, and it's not for lack of trying.

On the plus side, though: An individual failing on an RB song once or twice doesn't kill the band, and can be save. I'd expect that very few people won't be able to get good enough at Hard (guitar/bass) to play in a band, occasionally needing to be saved on tough solos. Vocals...will be tougher, it's very hard to improve that particular skill outside of just learning the song. I don't know where the wall will be on drums, but I do worry that there may be a huge difficulty jump from Medium to Hard.

Suggested slogan: Rock Band World Tour--And You Thought Oblivion Was Long and Difficult?

[Maherj]

While I agree with the skill wall fustrations, I think half of the fun is just edging yourself closer and eventually over it.

I'm 30 years old and GH2 was my first rhythm game. I didn't think I'd ever be able to beat Hard. The more practice and the more I played, the more joy I got for finally beating that song, you don't need to 5* it, sometimes you just need to wing it. Now I've beaten expert with practice, not very skillfully, but I can say I've beaten it!

RB comes with lots of practice modes, and I think WBT is really going to focus a lot of having your band practice a lot, find out where the weaknesses are, and work together to overcome it. Like the above poster states, you also have the 3 failout rule, and WBT is really going to test the overall performance, not just tricky guitar solos.

[Royges]

Crap. This does not bode well for my bass/vocals plan.

our plan is Fu****

http://card.mygamercard.net/ES/gelsig/ROYGES.png (http://profile.mygamercard.net/ROYGES)

[Bakkster]

Until they ram head first into the "Skill Wall" and can progress no further. Especially a problem for non-gamers you shanghai into playing this thing, and definitely a problem for aging gamers such as myself who no longer have the reflexes of a 13 year old. At that point, you're pretty much just stuck.

This wasn't a problem in GH2, because the skill wall is set at Medium -- once you clear the game on medium you have all the unlocks and can experience 100% of the game's content, aside from a few trivial funny looking guitars. But in RB, an entire game mode only works if you have a sufficient number of locally gathered highly skilled people. That is NOT casual gamer friendly, and quite disappointing.

It's hard to gain any sympathy on forums for being stuck behind a Skill Wall, I realize... typical responses are "L2P N00B". But it's a fact of life, for some of us, and it's not for lack of trying.

It seems BWT is aimed at the more hardcore audience. You will still be able to play it, you just might not progress far enough to complete it. Think of it like this: bands need to be good to play a stadium.

While I agree that this sucks if you are/play with casual gamers, I look at it as an add-on for the hardcore. Solo careers (likely very similar to GH) and quickplay will still be around for you to get your casual game on. OR, you can just stick to touring as a band playing on medium. You won't ever open at the Stockholm stadium, but you can still tour the US.

[Huwonk]

This is from sluggo of SH/IGN fame:

Sluggo works for Gamespy, not IGN.

[ZkDotNet]

Sluggo works for Gamespy, not IGN.
Damn, my bad... I'll fix that.

[mxmarks]

i highly doubt they'll make the mistake of making some songs un-attainable until you're at expert.

i think having this in BWT is pretty cool - and the more i re-read the original context, I think that LOCATIONS are going to be all thats locked out if you can't all play on expert, just like funny guitars in GH2. Which is fine by me. Although I doubt I'll ever be an expert drummer, there's more than enough venues to tour around and play on Hard until I finally DO make that leap!

[TK-757]

i highly doubt they'll make the mistake of making some songs un-attainable until you're at expert.

i think having this in BWT is pretty cool - and the more i re-read the original context, I think that LOCATIONS are going to be all thats locked out if you can't all play on expert, just like funny guitars in GH2. Which is fine by me. Although I doubt I'll ever be an expert drummer, there's more than enough venues to tour around and play on Hard until I finally DO make that leap!

That's what I'm hoping for as well. This comes as a bit of a disappointment to me, since I was never able to do much on Expert in GH2, but I'm going to view it as a great challenge. :)

[Thrashdragon]

It seems BWT is aimed at the more hardcore audience. You will still be able to play it, you just might not progress far enough to complete it. Think of it like this: bands need to be good to play a stadium.

While I agree that this sucks if you are/play with casual gamers, I look at it as an add-on for the hardcore. Solo careers (likely very similar to GH) and quickplay will still be around for you to get your casual game on. OR, you can just stick to touring as a band playing on medium. You won't ever open at the Stockholm stadium, but you can still tour the US.

But, as BWT is offline only, how many people even know one other person in RL that can five star Expert songs with regularity, let alone three? I have three friends I'll occasionally be able to get together with to play a little BWT, but the only other hardcore gamer in that group isn't good enough to even try Expert, and probably will never be. The other two of them have wives and kids and will never progress to Hard, let alone Expert.

I swear, the more little bombs like this that get dropped, the more I think Harmonix is trying to force us all to quit playing video games and start a real band. And you know, If I had three musically inclined friends living close by and a ton of extra time in which to "practice" I would...but I don't, which is why I play GH and RB. Make solo as hard as you want, but don't lock folks out of part of the game just because they're not in high school/college anymore.

[MartyMcFly]

But, as BWT is offline only, how many people even know one other person in RL that can five star Expert songs with regularity, let alone three?

Looks like that Band Wanted forum is going to get a lot of use for looking for people to actually play with in real life lol

[HeXcoda]

Looks like that Band Wanted forum is going to get a lot of use for looking for people to actually play with in real life lol

WANTED: Someone in the Washington DC area who can 3-5 star expert drum, has at least 4 hours of free time each weekend, and will not touch me in my bathing suit area and/or garrote me with piano wire and deposit my body parts in a salt mine in western Pennsylvania.

...yeah. I'm kinda thinking, no. I prefer my friendly strangers at Internet's length, not arm's length. Until they patch BWT mode to go online it's gonna sit largely unused with me making it as far in as I can with Medium Bass/Vocals and then stuck.

I really wish I could pin down a game dev and ask them "Why did you do it this way?". The devil's in the details and more often than not some decision like this cuts the legs out from under the fun. How could they NOT realize this would be an issue..? Or were they planning on the online portion taking care of the problem, and then couldn't finish the online portion, and now they're just hoping nobody notices before ship date?

[Bakkster]

Make solo as hard as you want, but don't lock folks out of part of the game just because they're not in high school/college anymore.

I'm of the opposite opinion. I'd rather Solo stays similar to what it is and make BWT scale.

Again, not all real bands make it. Maybe they're trying to simulate this in BWT. I think it's a gamble for HMX that will pay off for those who are able to get together with friends.


I really wish I could pin down a game dev and ask them "Why did you do it this way?". The devil's in the details and more often than not some decision like this cuts the legs out from under the fun. How could they NOT realize this would be an issue..? Or were they planning on the online portion taking care of the problem, and then couldn't finish the online portion, and now they're just hoping nobody notices before ship date?

As far as not being able to do it online, I remember back when the only way to play Halo multiplayer was to have a LAN party. Harmonix said they really REALLY wanted to make BWT online, but a combination of time and technological restraints prevented that. This is a new genre and things will slowly make their way online as the genre evolves. Just cut them a little slack until they get there.

[Nazriel]

This is devastating if true.

My band is supposed to be made up of a three people for now, and one is a person who is firmly in the "plays on Easy in GHII and still has trouble" camp, stating facts, she fully admits she doesn't have the best rhythm but enjoys playing none the less. Singing may go better for her I suppose, but this is disappointing that to go through all of BWT you have to get serious and not just have fun and jam out on whatever difficulty suits each individual person

If this is true, this is a knock against playing a game together with friends; turns it more into a "find new friends" game if someone is not up to the game's proverbial snuff.

Very very disappointed if there is no option to play through on a single difficulty; "Realism" of needing to play well in stadiums be damned. It's a game.

[JackBNimble]

Thats good,you shouldn't be able to just walk through WBT.There's always quickplay if it gets to difficult.

[sporkBrigade]

I'm actually super excited to hear this news. Here's why.

There were two ways they could tackle difficulty scaling. Fact is, every game has to account for a challenge. It's not unethical, they're not being jerks. It's just part of what makes games fun for the majority, and every game has to account for this. For a solo game, it's easy as pie. You just have an Easy, a Medium, and a Hard mode. But Multiplayer get's tricky, especially co-op. Here's the two general options:

Option 1: Difficulty is set accross the board. The advantage is that campaigns are easy to balance. Players want a challenge, they up the difficulty. Simple as pie. The disadvantage comes in with players of different skill levels. GH1 faceoff anyone? You want to play someone who's a medium level player, you have to play on Medium. *Yawn*

Option 2: Difficulty is set per the individual. Most games can't even do this, like first person shooters, but these music games are an exception. Everyone has their own music to play, so having one person on expert doesn't screw over Nooby McNooberson on Bass. Disadvantage, however, is that you break difficulty scaling. You can't have an "Expert Campaign" now because anyone can play at any level. So where's the challenge?

BWT with option 1, in my opinion, is crap. In my group, whoever is on drums is going to be on Medium. So to play BWT, I would have been on Guitar on Medium. Again, a great big *Yawn*. Option 2, on the other hand, solves this problem immediately. However, having an "Expert" campaign isn't so simple. How to fix it? Well, HMX decided to scale difficulty into the course of the Tour. An example of how it could work: Playing local gigs in LA is your easy mode. You're just learning the game. Tour Bus is your Medium Mode. You get all of America for this campaign. Then your Hard mode throws Europe into the mix. Expert Mode? The remote places. The places you can only get to by jet, no matter where you started. You've killed two birds with this stone. You now have a challenge for everyone involved, and as a bonus, you don't even have to start over to move up in difficulty! As soon as you're done with the "Medium Campaign", you can keep going around playing in your sandbox, or you can start tackling the next difficulty step. In other games, you'd have to start over and lose all your sh** you've collected.

Those final cities, or those final arenas (Depending on how they work it out) are just the expert campaign. If you don't want to play the co-op expert campaign, then don't go to those Venues. Just keep touring America. If you're worried about unlocking the venues, then go play a solo tour. Unlock songs? Solo Tour. But if you want to play the expert multi-player campaign, you need the skills to pay the bills. Nothing wrong with that, it was just their best option to challenge your band.

And of course it should be online. No one from Harmonix has never ever ever ever disagreed with any of you on that point, so stop bringing it up. It couldn't happen. It will be added asap.

[KingColon]

The only way this affects my singing/bass playing WBT plan is making it more of a challenge.


I gotta say, I'm lookin' forward to kickin' WBT's ass.

[LongDarkBlues]

This is devastating if true.

My band is supposed to be made up of a three people for now, and one is a person who is firmly in the "plays on Easy in GHII and still has trouble" camp, stating facts, she fully admits she doesn't have the best rhythm but enjoys playing none the less. Singing may go better for her I suppose, but this is disappointing that to go through all of BWT you have to get serious and not just have fun and jam out on whatever difficulty suits each individual person

Then ****ing do the Quick Play full band mode - christ people, this isn't that complicated.

[Thrashdragon]

Those final cities, or those final arenas (Depending on how they work it out) are just the expert campaign. If you don't want to play the co-op expert campaign, then don't go to those Venues. Just keep touring America. If you're worried about unlocking the venues, then go play a solo tour. Unlock songs? Solo Tour. But if you want to play the expert multi-player campaign, you need the skills to pay the bills. Nothing wrong with that, it was just their best option to challenge your band.

And of course it should be online. No one from Harmonix has never ever ever ever disagreed with any of you on that point, so stop bringing it up. It couldn't happen. It will be added asap.

But since the co-op campaign, as far as we know of course, is the only real campaign in the game, the one with all the meaty goodness in it, they're limiting purchasers of the game to what their friends can accomplish. Which stinks. I have the "skills to pay the bills", but I don't have any friends around that can say the same, and they don't have the time to dedicate to it to change that.

If BWT was online, or you could solo it, I would have no problem with this. As it is, it's just one more :( .

Under system requirements the box should list "ONE OR MORE FRIENDS LIVING IN CLOSE PROXIMITY TO YOU AND CAPABLE OF PLAYING EXPERT REQUIRED TO EXPERIENCE FULL GAME CONTENT".

[LongDarkBlues]

It's just like any other game - if you don't get good enough to beat, then guess what?, You don't get to see the end - you're missing out on 'game content' but nobody ever *****es about that. Same with co-op - if your team / friends suck, you don't get to see everything. In a fighting game if you don't have friends who are as good you miss out on game content because you don't have decent competitors, etc - all you guys do is whine about every single thing in the game.

One guy is whining because he can't make his avatar change instruments on screen, one guy is whining because the guitar is slightly bigger, many guys are whining about the lack of a double-bass pedal, etc. - look, no single game can please everybody on every count. It's real easy - if you don't like the way they made the game, don't buy it - it's that simple.

[Spraynwipe]

Just to clarify - there's nothing that's 'expert or bust'.

Once you're touring the world, you'll need to bump up to medium to progress to the big setlists like the Endlist Setlist. We also have some 'hardcore' side quests you can undertake that require hard or above, but these are optional - like the rest of the BWT.

[TK-757]

Just to clarify - there's nothing that's 'expert or bust'.

Once you're touring the world, you'll need to bump up to medium to progress to the big setlists like the Endlist Setlist. We also have some 'hardcore' side quests you can undertake that require hard or above, but these are optional - like the rest of the BWT.

Again, thanks so much for the clarification! :)

This makes me a really happy guy today!

[Bakkster]

Just to clarify - there's nothing that's 'expert or bust'.

Once you're touring the world, you'll need to bump up to medium to progress to the big setlists like the Endlist Setlist. We also have some 'hardcore' side quests you can undertake that require hard or above, but these are optional - like the rest of the BWT.

Keep making awesome clarifications like this, and you might replace Sean and Fabio as our favorite HMX community person. :cool:

Just kidding Sean. ;)

Not really.

[HeXcoda]

Just to clarify - there's nothing that's 'expert or bust'.

Once you're touring the world, you'll need to bump up to medium to progress to the big setlists like the Endlist Setlist. We also have some 'hardcore' side quests you can undertake that require hard or above, but these are optional - like the rest of the BWT.

Alright, that's MUCH better. The IGN guys were describing it as they "hit the point" where you have to go hard... that's different from saying "You've played through BWT! Now, take on these extra challenging side quests!" which is absolutely fine and doesn't block any content from anyone. It's like going after Ruby Weapon or other such post-game stuff... casual players wouldn't and shouldn't care because they got "the experience" already.

I retract my objection. I mean, I still don't like that I've gotta have local folks or I can't even play this outside of singing+bass, but presumably HMX is going to patch in online. Presumably.

[TK-757]

Keep making awesome clarifications like this, and you might replace Sean and Fabio as our favorite HMX community person. :cool:

Just kidding Sean. ;)

Not really.

*laugh* QFT ;)

[Edgehopper]

Just to clarify - there's nothing that's 'expert or bust'.

Once you're touring the world, you'll need to bump up to medium to progress to the big setlists like the Endlist Setlist. We also have some 'hardcore' side quests you can undertake that require hard or above, but these are optional - like the rest of the BWT.

Two things I've been confused about, and wondering if you could clarify?

1. Can a band eventually "finish" Band World Tour? I assume the answer is yes, and that's what the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame Induction achievement is about.

2. Is the Endless Setlist the "final boss" of Band World Tour? If not, can you tell us what the end conditions are?

[CableCarrier]

I think BWT is an on-going thing; you keep playing songs in assorted venues around the world to keep your fanbase up and earn more money for more stuff.

[BathTub]

Well there is bound to be a point where there is nothing new to unlock, except maybe stuff added by DLC.

[Maggot_Brain]

Just to clarify - there's nothing that's 'expert or bust'.

Once you're touring the world, you'll need to bump up to medium to progress to the big setlists like the Endlist Setlist. We also have some 'hardcore' side quests you can undertake that require hard or above, but these are optional - like the rest of the BWT.

Excellent. That means more casual players who can finish medium and some of hard won't be locked out of finishing BWT. (Yes, not everyone has 4 hours a day to practice getting good on expert. Or wants to practice that much. I already have a job!)

[holyground]

Well there is bound to be a point where there is nothing new to unlock, except maybe stuff added by DLC.

Um, not that I don't totally love HMX, but I better not have to have to unlock anything I pay extra for.

[BathTub]

No, I just mean we already know that DLC will slot into the BWT. So there will be a point where you have opened up all the current challenges that come with the game on the disc, until you choose to add some DLC.

[85_SWB]

its said that everything beyond medium is optional

[sporkBrigade]

But since the co-op campaign, as far as we know of course, is the only real campaign in the game, the one with all the meaty goodness in it, they're limiting purchasers of the game to what their friends can accomplish. Which stinks. I have the "skills to pay the bills", but I don't have any friends around that can say the same, and they don't have the time to dedicate to it to change that.

If BWT was online, or you could solo it, I would have no problem with this. As it is, it's just one more :( .

Under system requirements the box should list "ONE OR MORE FRIENDS LIVING IN CLOSE PROXIMITY TO YOU AND CAPABLE OF PLAYING EXPERT REQUIRED TO EXPERIENCE FULL GAME CONTENT".

Edit: Well nevermind then, I guess cities will never be locked out by difficulty over Medium. Awesome. :D

[mxmarks]

Thats exactly what I thought. As long as Harmonix doesn't deny anyone at any level (well, medium I guess) to play any song (and even in GH, once you play it on Medium, you can play it on easy) then I'm more than fine with BWT.

I know that I JUST LAST WEEK finally 5 starred all the songs in GH2 on Hard. And I got the eyeball. And I don't use it =). But man, when I got it, I was sure to yell to my roomate and show him it was unlocked on my screen. I'm going for the log now, but just because it's something to do.

It's the same thing with BWT. I'd love (for the sake of argument, we'll keep using Tokyo) to play Tokyo. But if I can't find a drummer good enough, my roomate better get practicing. And once we get there - we'll play the same songs we play everywhere else. And who knows? Maybe I'll never play Tokyo ever again. It will just be cool to work towards.

I have no problem if I NEVER get to play it either, though. Its fun to have things to work towards.

[sporkBrigade]

Thats exactly what I thought. As long as Harmonix doesn't deny anyone at any level (well, medium I guess) to play any song (and even in GH, once you play it on Medium, you can play it on easy) then I'm more than fine with BWT.

I know that I JUST LAST WEEK finally 5 starred all the songs in GH2 on Hard. And I got the eyeball. And I don't use it =). But man, when I got it, I was sure to yell to my roomate and show him it was unlocked on my screen. I'm going for the log now, but just because it's something to do.

It's the same thing with BWT. I'd love (for the sake of argument, we'll keep using Tokyo) to play Tokyo. But if I can't find a drummer good enough, my roomate better get practicing. And once we get there - we'll play the same songs we play everywhere else. And who knows? Maybe I'll never play Tokyo ever again. It will just be cool to work towards.

I have no problem if I NEVER get to play it either, though. Its fun to have things to work towards.

Heh, I'm glad you agree! Harmonix man just crushed my entire post though. Turns out you'll never be denied Tokyo beyond Medium. But, you'll be denied what was described as "Side Quests", which pretty much are the same idea. Hard things that are there just for the challenge. So we'll still have our goals!

[Nazriel]

Awesome clarification, put to rest a lot of fears. My concerns earlier in the thread were of the "If" this happens variety, and they're not.

Medium for everyone to move on is very reasonable, and the extra "optional" challenges on Hard are a good balance!

Choices are good. :)