Konami Vs. Harmonix

[sweet-t310]

So maybe I've just missed it, but the past few days I've been surprised by the lack of threads about the recent lawsuit filed by Konami (for those uninformed, http://blog.wired.com/games/2008/07/konami-sues-har.html).

Obviously there are some similarities to the overall feel of the games, but does anybody else find it interesting that Konami hadn't said anything about this for the past 3 years until now. Hmm, why would Konami be trying to get Harmonix and Activision out of the Rhythm game business at this point in time...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guitar_Revolution

[Chief Stubbs]

So maybe I've just missed it, but the past few days I've been surprised by the lack of threads about the recent lawsuit filed by Konami (for those uninformed, http://blog.wired.com/games/2008/07/konami-sues-har.html).

Obviously there are some similarities to the overall feel of the games, but does anybody else find it interesting that Konami hadn't said anything about this for the past 3 years until now. Hmm, why would Konami be trying to get Harmonix and Activision out of the Rhythm game business at this point in time...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guitar_Revolution
The threads were locked.

[sweet-t310]

For what purpose? It isn't a rumor that the lawsuit was filed. Obviously, HMX can't post information on here regarding a pending lawsuit, but that doesn't mean that average joe can't voice his opinion.

[PlayFreebirdNow]

But that doesn't mean a power hungry mod won't lock the thread.

[Ultimatum]

The threads were locked because the very first devolved into mudslinging between Konami and HMX fanboys.

[Drama 313]

you dont here much about it,because like everyone above me said,mods lock threads hoping people wont know about the lawsuit. As for the lawsuit,HMX well fork over a large sum of cash and they'll settle out of court.

[Ultimatum]

Be careful what you post, I have a feeling you just started a law debate.

[yelladog32]

you dont here much about it,because like everyone above me said,mods lock threads hoping people wont know about the lawsuit. As for the lawsuit,HMX well fork over a large sum of cash and they'll settle out of court.


Um, wow, you don't even know the full details of the lawsuit and your assuming this will happen. The only time you settle is if the cost of the lawsuit outweighs the benefit of protecting your stance.

Mods lock the threads because people make asinine assumptions about the lawsuits without knowing the full facts or the evidence presented.

Your assumption makes me believe you would sue a doctor in order for some quick money...:rolleyes:

[PlayFreebirdNow]

Nah, if Konami won this, every FPS every would get the hell sued.

[killer_roach]

Nah, if Konami won this, every FPS every would get the hell sued.

They don't intend to "win"... they intend to settle for licensing fees, kick back, and let Harmonix make money for them :)

[Sikaris]

Um, wow, you don't even know the full details of the lawsuit and your assuming this will happen. The only time you settle is if the cost of the lawsuit outweighs the benefit of protecting your stance.

Mods lock the threads because people make asinine assumptions about the lawsuits without knowing the full facts or the evidence presented.

Your assumption makes me believe you would sue a doctor in order for some quick money...:rolleyes:

Konami not only wants money, but for the game to be pulled... Viacom will have to try to prove the patents invalid, or settle out of court. They won't let Konami get what they want, especially with RB2 release so close.

I'd like to add that it's pretty obvious that Konami is just doing this now due to the impending release of Rock Revolution. Deny it if you want, but they've done this before.

[Bosco32]

On top of this one, there are two other non-locked lawsuit threads on the forum. They've locked one that devolved into the typical crap. The mod gave a reason why it was being locked. I appreciate that certain folks (and certain folks' brothers...*cough*) have issues with mods or Harmonix or whatever and want to claim cover-up, but facts are something you may want to look into.

[sa_nick]

you dont here much about it,because like everyone above me said,mods lock threads hoping people wont know about the lawsuit. As for the lawsuit,HMX well fork over a large sum of cash and they'll settle out of court.

Incorrect. I locked the thread because a bunch of Konami fanboys came over and invade our forums. They were spamming, saying HMX sucks, RB sucks, posting explicit videos, swearing and paying everyone out.

That was the thread in the General Forum, there was also one in this section which was left open because the Konami crew didn't come in and ruin it.

[packerfan8675309]

Rock Revolution!!! Funded by our lawsuits

[PlanetHill]

Incorrect. I locked the thread because a bunch of Konami fanboys came over and invade our forums.

There are Konami Fanboys?

Wow. Kinda like being a rabid "John Tesh" fanboy I guess. :p

[SkinandBones_]

not yet rabid, but still highly dangerous :P

[Ultimatum]

All of them are Japanophiles, they treat anything that comes from japan as the word of God.

[Gryffindor]

Has anyone looked at the patent? I have. HMX is going to have a difficult time defending this. The guitar schematics show a RB/GH guitar with only 3 buttons. There's even a diagragm that shows how the tilting the guitar works to set off OD/SP. Then there's the drums diagram. Granted, their drums are different but not enough I think to completely invalidate their patent claim.

I have to wonder why they're not going after Activision also? Are they getting paid some kind of royalty or is it the fact that GHWT hasn't been released yet?

It should be interesting to see how this pans out.

[Ultimatum]

They already got money from RO, IIRC, there were other lawsuits with RO back when they were involved with HMX, or possibly before then.

[OKGost]

The threads were locked because the very first devolved into mudslinging between Konami and HMX fanboys.

I never meant for it to become a mess, heh. I was simply posting some news that I hadn't found on the boards that day. Pity :(

[killer_roach]

Has anyone looked at the patent? I have. HMX is going to have a difficult time defending this. The guitar schematics show a RB/GH guitar with only 3 buttons. There's even a diagragm that shows how the tilting the guitar works to set off OD/SP. Then there's the drums diagram. Granted, their drums are different but not enough I think to completely invalidate their patent claim.

I have to wonder why they're not going after Activision also? Are they getting paid some kind of royalty or is it the fact that GHWT hasn't been released yet?

It should be interesting to see how this pans out.

I don't know enough about the particular internal workings of the guitars, but I am pretty sure the GF guitar uses a different tilt system... it's very, very, very smooth, and I am sure it's not a ball-bearing system. Also, the tilt mechanic in GF is significantly different...

And yes, as of GH3, Activision and RedOctane have been paying licensing fees to Konami for the use of some patents, although I don't know if they are the patents cited in the lawsuit.

[Bosco32]

Has anyone looked at the patent? I have. HMX is going to have a difficult time defending this. The guitar schematics show a RB/GH guitar with only 3 buttons. There's even a diagragm that shows how the tilting the guitar works to set off OD/SP. Then there's the drums diagram. Granted, their drums are different but not enough I think to completely invalidate their patent claim.

I have to wonder why they're not going after Activision also? Are they getting paid some kind of royalty or is it the fact that GHWT hasn't been released yet?

It should be interesting to see how this pans out.

Considering HMX's patent background, hopefully they have their I's dotted, etc. Without knowing the specifics of their defense, it's tough to tell. But if they dropped the ball where RO did not, it'll be very interesting to watch. MTV has responded briefly:


“Konami’s actions are extremely surprising,” an MTV spokesperson said of the suit. “Unfortunately, successful products such as ‘Rock Band’ can often become targets for baseless litigation. We have substantial defenses to this claim and intend to vigorously defend it.”

http://multiplayerblog.mtv.com/2008/07/11/mtv-responds-to-rock-band-lawsuit/

One hopes the threat of an injunction is just a way to drive up the money that they're seeking and that might true, but that might not be all. Konami is probably in the midst of their sell-in process for Rock Revolution and is getting a cool response from the major retail players. If you're Best Buy and you've got finite shelf space, and spots reserved for GHWT and RB2 (and their stand-alone accessories), you might not be interesting in picking up a new product with comparitively little buzz. This lawsuit provides the potential to clear up some shelf space, if you know what I mean.

[Cassiuss]

I hated activision when they disappoved the PS3 guitar patch that could have been released, I wont ever buy another activision game because of it. Same with Konami, and there metal gear solid series now. I was so going to buy this game, which just got 10/10 but after this lawsuit *** them.

[Alonzo1948]

I hated activision when they disappoved the PS3 guitar patch that could have been released, I wont ever buy another activision game because of it. Same with Konami, and there metal gear solid series now. I was so going to buy this game, which just got 10/10 but after this lawsuit *** them.

MGS4 is one of best games of all time, dont let this **** stop you from playing it.

[an1m051ty]

Its sad that they are doing this now, but yeah, I agree its mainly because of Rock Revolution and the resources they've devoted to it. True, they might have done it anyway if they never planned to release RR, but its certainly been very "timely". Despite the patent verbage, going up against Viacom will be no easy task for them.

Rock Revolution will do poorly, and this certainly won't help it much. A game with far less songs, all covers, and a wacky-looking drumset? Plus I'm sure plenty of Rock Band fans out there work at retail stores... and can persuade buyers to the better product.

[dtslayer]

If Konami thinks this will be over quickly then I believe they've made one HUGE mistake thanks to EA and Viacom's vast financial resources this will be tied up in the courts for years to come.

Epic Fail Konami

lol

[darkrei9n]

If Rock Band gets pulled. We all move onto what?

[Tavataar]

Nah, if Konami won this, every FPS every would get the hell sued.

Except that there are no patents (as far as I know) that any company has for a First Person Shooting game.

You would be surprised how many companies already pay royalties for certain types of game play. http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/3562/the_designers_notebook_damn_all_.php
is a very interesting article at Gamasutra about game play patents, and why they are completely non-beneficial to the whole industry.

What Konami is suing about is they are saying "we own the rights to musical simulation in a video game" or some such and that Harmonix does not have permission to use that sort of game play.

[Kane92]

konami is making some really wierd decisions as of late

[Ultimatum]

MGS4 is one of best games of all time, dont let this **** stop you from playing it.

Morals>games.

[killer_roach]

konami is making some really wierd decisions for as long as they've existed.

There, I fixed it.

[Alonzo1948]

Morals>games.
Let me rephrase my statement. What if MTV sued someone over as stupid as this? Would you stop buying Harmonix products and DLC? No, you wouldn’t. The team that made MGS4 is owned by Konami the same way Harmonix is owned by MTV. I’m not say buy RR because it’s a competitive product to RB, but MGS4 has nothing to do with this.

[CENACHAINGANG54]

From what I know, Konami is not going after Activision, just Harmonix. Now in the perfect world it would have been a suit against both Activision and Harmonix, Since Activision is doing the same thing. However Activision is the small fish here, while Harmonix is the big fish in the pond!

I agree with the other poster that Konami is only doing this because of thier second rate game! They have not said anything in the last 8 months when it comes to Rock Band!

All Konami is going to do is not sell many games, and piss people off!

I am not worried about Harmonix and I am not worried about RB2 coming!

This will be handled and Harmonix will go on making the most AWESOME music game in history! IMHO

[SlivedCupWinner]

From what I know, Konami is not going after Activision, just Harmonix. Now in the perfect world it would have been a suit against both Activision and Harmonix, Since Activision is doing the same thing. However Activision is the small fish here, while Harmonix is the big fish in the pond!

I agree with the other poster that Konami is only doing this because of thier second rate game! They have not said anything in the last 8 months when it comes to Rock Band!

All Konami is going to do is not sell many games, and piss people off!

I am not worried about Harmonix and I am not worried about RB2 coming!

This will be handled and Harmonix will go on making the most AWESOME music game in history! IMHO


Fire up GH:III and you'll see why konami isn't going after Activision. They paid for use of Konami's patents.

[PacoL250]

Fire up GH:III and you'll see why konami isn't going after Activision. They paid for use of Konami's patents.

I don't remember anything about Konami's patents in GH 3, but I'm sure they're probably in the game somehow/somewhere. However, who's to say that HMX/MTV has not paid for Konami's patents? It's possible they may have missed one; patent and copyright law is just sickeningly complicated. A friend of mine is in law school and she's told me stories about how crazy it can get. If that's the case, trying to get the release of RB 2 halted and possibly getting RB pulled is just ludicrous. Why so late Konami?

The point being is that Konami is trying to nail HMX/MTV on a technicality that may not even exist and is trying to drive attention to their upcoming RR.

The fact of the matter is, RR is going to get little attention at the retail level.

Bosco32 made the point (page 2 or 3 of the thread) about finite shelf space and that is 100% accurate. Take the Best Buy example and now think about a GameStop. Granted, they sell nothing but gaming-related items, but the fact is, they have limited space. I know, I worked at one in college. The back room stock and store space itself will be barely be able to fit anything RR related. Plus, GH and RB have track records of selling very well. RR, even though it has Konami's backing, has none. Retail companies are asking themselves: "Is there room on the market for another rock-based rhythm game?"

Literally, therer probably isn't much retail shelf space, if any at all for RR. Economically, again, probably not. Once consumers see what is in the game, I severely doubt they will commit to the game. Sure, they may try it out, but I severly doubt a complete commitment unless you're an irrational fanboy/girl. Think about this way (and I'm asking the fanboys/fangirls too): would you rather play all covers or mostly (if not all) master tracks for a rhythm game?

Konami cornered the market in regards to DDR, but unfortunately for them, that market is not as big as the market for RB and GH.

[Angry_Games]

Let me rephrase my statement. What if MTV sued someone over as stupid as this? Would you stop buying Harmonix products and DLC? No, you wouldn’t. The team that made MGS4 is owned by Konami the same way Harmonix is owned by MTV. I’m not say buy RR because it’s a competitive product to RB, but MGS4 has nothing to do with this.

Other than Rock Band (because it is Harmonix, who created the previous GH games) I buy zero EA products because of a few reasons (like draconian copy protection on PC games, half-assed ports of their best sports games to PC, their monopolizing on the NFL license after they realized NFL 2k5 was so much better than stale old Madden that they were afraid of competition)...

About the same as I refuse to shop at wal-mart no matter how good their prices are, no matter how convenient it is.

I refuse to purchase anything that has the name "Logitech" on it

Ultimatum definitely spoke for me when he said
Morals>games

Standing up for what you believe to be right isn't for anyone to question (well, you can question, but you'll usually be wrong for it even if you can't figure out how it is possible that you could be wrong for judging someone else's morals...which means you are the type of person who can't stand someone else having any opinion but yours, and we all hate those type of people...even if they seem to outnumber the rest of us these days).

I don't question anyone who refuses to shop at a certain place, buy a certain brand etc. People have their reasons, and if you don't like it, it isn't for you to comment on really, just accept it.





Lawsuits like these are typical when hundreds of millions of dollars might be at stake. As previous posters have said, Konami's game is 40 songs of covers and we don't know much about it other than what I just said. RB and GH have track records a mile long and sales records that are through the roof respectively...so why try to break into a market dominated by not one but TWO heavy players when you can try to sue your way in.

HMX might or might not have violated patents. Konami might or might not be right in suing HMX. It won't change me purchasing RB2 nor future DLC anymore than when Activision bought GH franchise and Red Octane and decided to turn it into "Tony Hawk Pro Guitar Hero 3" with stupid boss battles and battle mode blah blah.

Imagine all of the money Activision/RO pays out to not only Konami for patents but HMX as well for the use of the GH bits that HMX created. And yet I think I read GH sold more games this year than anyone else. Go figure.

Money rules the world and makes people evil. But without money we are nothing but dirty hillbilly Idaho rednecks who live in trailers, beat their wives, and have trucks with confederate flags in the windows up on blocks in teh patch of grass outside the trailer that is also known as the "yard" with 4 grubby kids and mom on welfare while dad is at the bar shagging Lurlene instead of at the day-labor place hanging drywall.

Hrmmm...that last bit sounds suspiciously like I've just described myself...?!

[JMaqIsYourHero]

KONAMI WILL SUE




(Man, that takes me back...)

[DeadManDrumming]

First off: Konami wants money and to be in the "Multi-instrument" race.
Second: They know their game doesn't compare with GH:WT or RB2.
Last: Sue and make money off of the companies who spent time in development?

[FloodOne]

All of them are Japanophiles, they treat anything that comes from japan as the word of God.

theres nothing wrong with japanese games. final fantasy, metal gear, castlevania (mostly the older and handheld ones), and nintendo developed titles all are well made. and without nintendo none of us would be gaming at all.

that said japanophiles are notoriously stupid, and hopefully this lawsuit fizzles

[HellishFiend]

First off: Konami wants money and to be in the "Multi-instrument" race.
Second: They know their game doesn't compare with GH:WT or RB2.
Last: Sue and make money off of the companies who spent time in development?

True or not, this is certainly what it looks like to bystanders like us.

[theonew00t]

Konami is good about coming up with an initial good idea, and supporting it at first. After a while, they stop supporting it fully and it kind of dies out, but then someone comes along and remakes an improved version of their idea. When this improved version comes out, they run it straight into the ground with law suits and creating shoddy versions their original idea to prove they still make those types of games.

Example:

In The Groove improved upon DDR, and Konami ran RoXor into the ground. They first creating (imo) one of the crappiest DDR mixes (DDR Supernova), and then went to court claiming that they still make new dance machines and RoXor had infringed on several copyrights. They seized the intellectual property of RoXor and In The Groove, so all in all we'll never see another In The Groove game again.

Rock Band improved on Drum Mania and Guitar Freaks by making a game where playing together was not just an after thought, but the entire game itself. So what does Konami do? They create Rock Revolution and file lawsuits against HMX. All though this time, Konami isn't going after a small development company, they are going after a beast. I am not sure if Konami is going to win this one so easily.

Here's supporting HMX!

[Tsavo]

theres nothing wrong with japanese games. final fantasy, metal gear, castlevania (mostly the older and handheld ones), and nintendo developed titles all are well made. and without nintendo none of us would be gaming at all.


at what point did he say there is something wrong with Japanese games? I feel like you just stated the obvious for no reason.

[Jixzer]

About the same as I refuse to shop at wal-mart no matter how good their prices are, no matter how convenient it is.

I refuse to purchase anything that has the name "Logitech" on it


Whoa!!! Hold the phone.

Ok, your Madden statement...that I can understand...no problem there.

Walmart...I don't know your motivation...but whatever.

LOGITECH...I live with Logitech...they have some of the best stuff out there. I just gotta know what your beef is with them.

Oh...sorry...Konami is a bunch of boobs. :)