(Artist's rendition of) What's wrong with the RB Drums

[Maposaurus]

http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i45/ShiggidySchwah/rbwhereswaldo.jpg

Yes, I know my MS Paint skills are comparable to that of an autistic monkey, but you don't need to compliment me on them.

Well, this is a rant from a real drummer, so sit on down or get out before it's too late.

First, before you make a quip about it being a prototype, remember it's a working prototype, and the game is pretty close to final production. So while the design can be changed before manufacturing, it's likely it won't be drastically so.

Well, the most obvious thing from the picture is the awkward looking design. From the scans, it looks like a set of quad-toms on a stand with a pedal. First off, I can understand why they'd only put five buttons on the design, but the four in a line (and according to GI, uncustomizable) design is the real heartbreaker. It's probably the worst design they could have picked to emulate the feel of a real set of drums short of a vertical line.

A 2x2 square would be a far better choice, as you could simulate hi-hat on the TL, snare on the BL, ride on the BR, and splash or effects on the TR, and it could change in a fly to a standard snare/rack toms/floor toms for fills. I don't know where the crash would go for fills, but my assumption would be crash on the TL and crash ride on the TR for the end of fills.

I'm not demanding there be six pads like in my picture (which I think would be awesome and help the drums stay in synch with the new and more realistic guitars, plus ramping up the difficulty and make difficult beats that span multiple drums and cymbals feel more natural), but I personally think it would be a great addition. They should at least change it to a 2x2 square over a 4x1 rectangle. Maybe even an upside down isosceles trapezoid, which looks like

\__/

For the geometrically challenged.

Second off, I know this will change, but currently the drums don't look very aesthetically pleasing. Maybe put a large metal or plastic round in the bottom (a great place to fit that ever important logo) to simulate the look of a bass drum from the front. It doesn't even have to have depth, just be there and look pretty. The drums themselves should look less metal and rubber and more plastic and wood. I'm fine with the metal rack, that's natural.

And lastly, why no double bass pedal? Seriously, it doesn't even have to do anything extra than hit the same trigger the normal one does. It would make faster passages on the bass more manageable, and really, so much more metal than it would be with one.

Commence rabbling.

[c0nd0rd4myt]

think the thing you need to remember here buddy, is that most people who are playing this game are not drummers, nor do they ever plan to be one. its intended to be a somewhat accurate simulation, but without being too outwardly difficult. for those of us who want try the drum periphreal but have never picked up a pair of sticks, this is perfect (in my mind anyway).

also gotta keep in mind storage and construction into the design. your idea could work if the thing wasnt gonna move or get put away somewhere. the flat, straight design of this makes it easier for storage and transportation.

and like you said it is a working prototype, meaning the basics features and design is done. they could at the last second change it, or at the least make the periphreal an elipses.

[Maposaurus]

think the thing you need to remember here buddy, is that most people who are playing this game are not drummers, nor do they ever plan to be one. its intended to be a somewhat accurate simulation, but without being too outwardly difficult. for those of us who want try the drum periphreal but have never picked up a pair of sticks, this is perfect (in my mind anyway).

also gotta keep in mind storage and construction into the design. your idea could work if the thing wasnt gonna move or get put away somewhere. the flat, straight design of this makes it easier for storage and transportation.

and like you said it is a working prototype, meaning the basics features and design is done. they could at the last second change it, or at the least make the periphreal an elipses.

I don't see how changing it from a line to a square would make it any more difficult for non drummers. You're learning the exact same basics, it'll just be better for you from a learning standpoint, and it will make it easier for existing drummers to get into it.

Changing it to a square wouldn't change it at all as far as storage and transport is concerned. It's still the same base, and the drums will have the same area.

Also, I know this. The point is, it probably won't change unless they get some negative feedback about it, hence, I'm voicing my opinion.

[zankfrappa]

he's right i think a square would be more natural and easy to use. It'd be easier to cross the arms for playing the hi-hat and snare. I guess we'll just have to see how things pan out.

[Brock_Landers]

I'm not a drummer but I'll chime in and say that I agree the current proposed setup order of the drums does seem odd to me. That could just be part of my drum noobness, or out lack of understanding how the note charts have gotta be tailored for it tho.

And it'd be cool if there was a port in the drums for those who wanted to attach a second bass peddle to it (course, finding a spare one may be a hassel)

[Darkseed]

I completely agree with the original poster. Using the high hat and snare on the proposed set up just seems unnatural to me, and seeing as though these will be the two pads used most shouldn’t they at least be positioned more accurately? While I’m not a drummer per se (I have dabbled), 2x2 square (as the OP suggested) seems as though it would be the more obvious choice.

Furthermore, reading the article from GI revealed the snare will be on the far left pad! What the hell? Surely this can’t be right. I hope this changes, or at least be customisable, so that we can rock out with the snare and high hat more accurately.

On a side note, I can’t imagine why they wouldn’t realise an extra pedal for the kit seeing this would make metal tracks much easier (and appropriate) as Maposaurus pointed out.

[xCHRISx]

Yes, *PLEASE* change the horizontal layout! Either make it a square or bring the outermost pads down and in a bit, like so:

...OO...
..O..O..

This would be *much* more realistic and fun, in my opinion. That's my biggest gripe, is the setup of the pads, although a 5th dedicated hi-hat pad would be gravy. Please listen to us HMX!

[bounchfx]

I don't think it should be a square. I think it should be the trapezoid shape you described, because that is what I imagine would work best, with the outside 2 being the cymbal/hi-hat, besides the shape change (maybe even have the outside 2 be able to slide up into the square shape? but NO to the square shape, that is not how the notes line up on the screen, at least with the trapezoid they still run from left to right in a line, just a better overall shape), I would love to see a second pedal, or at least a second pedal sold separately for those of us who want to do Double bass. Double bass in the game would totally make my day as well as tons of other people.

then again, there needs to be songs in there that utilize it, which Is why it probably isn't there to begin with which makes me a sad panda.

back to the point - trapezoid! or inverse trap? hell, just let us slide the outside 2 around the inner 2.

aren't you glad you opened these forums? you get all this great feedback before you even ship out the game =D. I know, I know. Thank us later. With cash. or free copies of rock band.

[Maposaurus]

At this point, a fifth pad is probably out of the picture. They'd have to redo the UI and all the note charts, and that's just a huge hassle. I agree it would be nice, but from a developmental standpoint, it isn't gonna happen.

A double bass pedal can still be done, because it isn't adding anything new to the game, just a second trigger for the bass. It's pretty much like putting a second right mouse button on a mouse, they both do the same thing, but you sure as hell can right click faster now.

[Maposaurus]

I don't think it should be a square. I think it should be the trapezoid shape you described, because that is what I imagine would work best, with the outside 2 being the cymbal/hi-hat, besides the shape change (maybe even have the outside 2 be able to slide up into the square shape? but NO to the square shape, that is not how the notes line up on the screen, at least with the trapezoid they still run from left to right in a line, just a better overall shape), I would love to see a second pedal, or at least a second pedal sold separately for those of us who want to do Double bass. Double bass in the game would totally make my day as well as tons of other people.

then again, there needs to be songs in there that utilize it, which Is why it probably isn't there to begin with which makes me a sad panda.

back to the point - trapezoid! or inverse trap? hell, just let us slide the outside 2 around the inner 2.

aren't you glad you opened these forums? you get all this great feedback before you even ship out the game =D. I know, I know. Thank us later. With cash. or free copies of rock band.

Two problems with the trapezoid. First, though beats will be easier, fills will become a lot more awkward, where the meat of the difficulty is. With your rack toms panning out like that, your arms would be moving a lot more than needed, and it would get tiring. For fills, unless you're rocking out to an extreme, you're pretty much just moving your arm up and down from the elbow and readjusting your wrists to hit what you want. If it were a trapezoid, you'd either have to move a lot more at the shoulder, or have your elbows tilted out at a quite odd angle.

Second off, it's harder to ship. This may seem stupid, but trapezoids in square boxes waste a lot of space. They'll either have the space being eaten like that and waste shipping space, or have to make specially shaped boxes, which will add up to less net for them. From the standpoint of a business, it's a bad move.

The idea of the sliding, while good, would add at least ten dollars a unit to the cost of the drums. That's a pretty big increase over the price it'll likely be, and that might drive off customers. They're walking a very very thin line with the price, and if they don't nail it, they might have a bit of trouble moving certain units of the game (in this case, the drums), which amounts to wasted manufacturing cost.

Now, I'm not saying the square is perfect, but it works from a drummer's standpoint, and makes sense from a business standpoint.

[Klopek]

I would love to see a second pedal, or at least a second pedal sold separately for those of us who want to do Double bass. Double bass in the game would totally make my day as well as tons of other people.

then again, there needs to be songs in there that utilize it, which Is why it probably isn't there to begin with which makes me a sad panda.

I feel the same, double bass would be incredibly satisfying - but I'm also well aware, much like yourself, that their decision to not include a second pedal in the first place probably directly reflects the included music. Bummer. Seriously. I like the contents of Guitar Hero but metal really needs to be utilised properly here. I can't really understand why it shouldn't be? Difficulty? Just play on an easier setting! Swearing? They've censored tracks before. Personal taste of the masses? Don't be such a bunch of sissies!!!

[Maposaurus]

I agree with most of that, except for the fact that they need to appeal to the masses. They are running a business after all, and they're looking to make money. When you have such a potentially large amount of customers, it's stupid to just appeal to a core demographic.

[Klopek]

I agree with most of that, except for the fact that they need to appeal to the masses. They are running a business after all, and they're looking to make money. When you have such a potentially large amount of customers, it's stupid to just appeal to a core demographic.

You're right. I knew this before posting... but I like to fantasise about metal really, really getting it's dues. Still, falling back on some of the other members' posts... an additional port for an extra pedal would be a very good idea. After all, with this latest craze for DLC - metal packs could be released and people who feel they need another pedal could pick one up. It also requires no effort at all from Harmonix since they've already created a pedal.

Having additional ports would probably also serve well for future proofing the peripheral a little bit - I don't fancy having to buy another set of drums for Rock Band 2, with all it's new crazy features.

I'm really reiterating what others have already said. Just add another mark on the metal tally for me.

[Maposaurus]

Well, to be fair, I do agree there needs to be more metal.

We damn well better get some more Pantera this go around.

[Maposaurus]

It also requires no effort at all from Harmonix since they've already created a pedal.

Also, this exactly sums up my feelings on why there should be a double bass pedal in the first place. It's easy, gets them a bit more cash, and makes fans happy; it's a win-win all the way around.

[sa_nick]

Also, this exactly sums up my feelings on why there should be a double bass pedal in the first place. It's easy, gets them a bit more cash, and makes fans happy; it's a win-win all the way around.

They can't just attach another pedal and it's ready to go. It would require extreme amounts of revisions to the games coding.

[Maposaurus]

No, it wouldn't. It's hitting the same trigger in the controller, meaning it does the exact same thing as the other one. That's a ridiculous notion, all they'd need to do is (ever so slightly) modify the controller.

[elliott4179]

Agreed. A double bass pedal is a must. Otherwise I'm gonna have one calf muscle made of steel and one made of mush. :)

[sa_nick]

No, it wouldn't. It's hitting the same trigger in the controller, meaning it does the exact same thing as the other one. That's a ridiculous notion, all they'd need to do is (ever so slightly) modify the controller.

Ahh, my bad. I thought i was posting about having an open/closed hi-hat pedal.

[Ztype85]

I just want to know why in the world the snare is the leftmost pad, with the hi hat to the right of it. Do any of these developers even play drums?

[Apoc29]

I just want to know why in the world the snare is the leftmost pad, with the hi hat to the right of it. Do any of these developers even play drums?

The snare being the leftmost pad is logical ONLY given the current layout. When you've got 2 pads side by side horizontally on a flat plane, you can imagine how awkward it would be to cross your arms in the traditional drum style. If they rearranged the pads in any of the other configurations mentioned in this thread, then you can bet the developers would do the right thing and put the snare/hi-hat where they belong.

[hmxsean]

I just want to know why in the world the snare is the leftmost pad, with the hi hat to the right of it. Do any of these developers even play drums?

Yes, in fact many of the developers play drums. We also play video games. There has to be balance for it all to work.

[sa_nick]

I just want to know why in the world the snare is the leftmost pad, with the hi hat to the right of it. Do any of these developers even play drums?

Thinking about it more it makes perfect sense for the hi-hat to be the second pad and the snare to be the first.

Think about how it feels when you play the actual drums. Your arms are crossed over, however because of the additional height of the hi-hat it isn't at all awkward. Hitting 2 pads both on the same height level and relatively close to each other would be harder to do with you arms crossed.

And also, I do believe quite a few people in the Harmonix team play drums, include A-Rig himself. BTW, Alex my man if your reading this, your new nickname is A-Rig.

EDIT: wow, in the time it took me to write this 2 other people posted everything i had to say.

[Maposaurus]

The snare being the leftmost pad is logical ONLY given the current layout.

Exactly true. One of the reasons why the square is superior, it's still easy to play without sacrificing authenticity.

[Apples]

As a total musical illiterate, the drum setup looks great to me, and is exactly the sort of thing I was expecting to see. Even though I don't know how a drum set works, I can intuitively look at the controller, look at the colors, match it up with a note chart, and understand what's going on.

This is exactly the directly Rock Band needs to go... taking a challenging discipline and making it obvious and intuitive.



On another note:

If you rewind two years, and showed off a Guitar Hero controller for the first time, all the real guitar players would have blasted the design to bits... no strings, only 5 frets, what IS this rubbish ??? How did that controller end up working out?

[Maposaurus]

There's a problem with your analogy, in that guitars are much more complex than drums. With four pads, you can actually replicate the feel of drums quite well. Why not take the extra step and make it that much more realistic? They're still very simple to play, and there are ways to match up the colors on the drums to the colors on the screen (I've said this before, make half the rim colored, like

(..)
.)(

this), and it's actually easier to play the drums like that in a square than a line. Why? You move your arms less. Instead of twisting at the shoulder while moving your forearm up and down, all you're doing is moving your forearm up and down while readjusting your wrists. It's an easier movement, and it would make fills easier for beginners and experts alike, which again, is where most of the difficulty in drumming is (save a few very complex beats).

I've thought about this a lot, and I really can't see much reason why not to make them square.

[kilinor]

The "problems" that have been raised in this thread would be quite simple to fix...

Make the reversal of the Red and Yellow pads an option... Just like "Lefty Flip" for the guitars.

That way the "serious drummers" that can't accept that it's not a real kit can tie themselves in knots on a snare and hi-hat that are on the same level, and the rest of us who enjoy video games can play the way the makers intended. :)

Problem solved, and the code wouldn't be too horrific for hmx. (since i assume the different lines on the note chart equate to channels, switching the display and input pad for that channel should be relatively simple).

[Maposaurus]

There most definitely will be a lefty flip, since you play your rhythm cymbal with your dominant hand (it's surprisingly difficult to use your other hand), but that's not the point we're raising here mostly.

[kilinor]

There most definitely will be a lefty flip, since you play your rhythm cymbal with your dominant hand (it's surprisingly difficult to use your other hand), but that's not the point we're raising here mostly.

Nor was lefty flip the point I was making.

I was suggesting that the ability to swap the pads for Snare and Hi-Hat should be added as an option.
That way it becomes a matter of personal choice to play crossed (as a standard kit) or uncrossed (as a MUCH larger kit).
:cool:

[Maposaurus]

With the current setup, it's too difficult to cross your arms. Nobody would use it, HMX isn't stupid.

[sa_nick]

With the current setup, it's too difficult to cross your arms. Nobody would use it, HMX isn't stupid.

Some will try, after a few songs, they'll give up. lol

[kilinor]

With the current setup, it's too difficult to cross your arms. Nobody would use it, HMX isn't stupid.

Nor do I recall suggesting that they were.
Through their design process and subsequent in-game testing, I guess they have decided on a setup that is the best compromise between playability, durability and cost of manufacture.

Personally I think that the mock up we've seen looks really cool and should be a heap of fun to use...

[Maposaurus]

HMX was trying to find the most intuitive and easy to use design, which I don't blame them for doing.

However, as a drummer and gamer, I can very easily say that most gamers would toss away ease of use for extra fun in a heartbeat. I know they're trying to reach larger audiences of non gamers, but that demographic shrinks daily.

The closer they get the set to simulating a real drum sans the real problems (monetary issues, sound quality, etc.), the more incredible the game will be. I'm not expecting a nine drum, seventeen cymbal monster here, but the simple 2x2 square I've suggested an innumerable amount of times by now with possibly a double bass pedal would be absolutely amazing.

[Angel-Jin]

The closer they get the set to simulating a real drum sans the real problems (monetary issues, sound quality, etc.), the more incredible the game will be. I'm not expecting a nine drum, seventeen cymbal monster here, but the simple 2x2 square I've suggested an innumerable amount of times by now with possibly a double bass pedal would be absolutely amazing.

i definitely agree with what you're saying. i've had a fairly large amount of playtime on Drum Mania and it'd be a little strange for me to go from the setup used on those controllers to a straight line of drum pads. you can play cross-armed and it wasn't an issue, although i'm not a fan of drums because of the difficulty, but it was fun while it lasted.

just so everyone know what i'm talking about, this is the DM setup:

http://image4.play-asia.com/350/PA.53039.001.jpg

[Maposaurus]

Well, we won't be getting that (one too many buttons), so since we can only get four, square would still be best.

[deathstick]

Think of the RB set more like playing a set of marching toms instead of thinking how a traditional drumset would be laid out, (all the pads are from left to right and not HH pad to the left, snare up front, tom above, etc.) I'd love to play a drum controller laid out like my drumset, but it's not going to happen.

On second look the DM pads make a lot of sense, set-wise. But you could still play that open-handed, you don't HAVE to cross your arms. It just takes a bit more coordination, that's all.

[SoraRikuVGM]

Wait, what is the pedal? (As in, what part of the drum?)

[Maposaurus]

Think of the RB set more like playing a set of marching toms instead of thinking how a traditional drumset would be laid out, (all the pads are from left to right and not HH pad to the left, snare up front, tom above, etc.) I'd love to play a drum controller laid out like my drumset, but it's not going to happen.

On second look the DM pads make a lot of sense, set-wise. But you could still play that open-handed, you don't HAVE to cross your arms. It just takes a bit more coordination, that's all.

Exactly. The drums shouldn't feel like quad toms, but a drum set. This isn't Marching Band, it's Rock Band. I want to rock out.

And of course you could, but you could do the same on a real set. The reason you play with your arms crossed is because it is a lot easier to do.

[Ztype85]

Well the very fact that the drums are arranged this way basically voids the previous statement that if you can play a song in Rock Band on expert you can play it in real life. I think they got a little excited when they said that

[starsandskulls]

Add swivel arms to the outermost pads that way you can move them where you need them and you can still ship in a rectangle, also add a second pedal! I can live with that setup! Also, make them look more like real drums, I mean look at the Strat guitar controller, I thought it was a real guitar at my first glance and then the drums look like something from the bridge the enterprise! Let's get some aesthetic value in here HMX team!

[Maposaurus]

I've gone over it before, so instead of repeating myself for the umpteenth time, I'll just say this. Adding swivels costs dollars and cents, which would pass down to the consumer for an unenjoyable price increase.

Appearance improvement seconded.

[fragpirate]

C'mon Hmx!!!!

How ****ing Hard Would It Be To Make Us Happy And Just Change It Up A Liiiittttlllleee?!?!?!?!?

Also Give Us The Xtra Pedal!!!!! Ill Pay An Extra Ten For It God Damnit!!!!

[Maposaurus]

Short and sweet. Pretty much the entire topic summarized, sans good grammar and punctuation.

[fragpirate]

Short and sweet. Pretty much the entire topic summarized, sans good grammar and punctuation.

oh my bad.





Harmonix i beseach you.

Deliver unto us, a gift most magnificent.

Adjustable pads and an extra pedal.

Oh, the simplicity to please the masses is almost overbearing!

[bounchfx]

I just want to know why in the world the snare is the leftmost pad, with the hi hat to the right of it. Do any of these developers even play drums?

uhh yes, they all play a bunch of different stuff

[Maposaurus]

Hinges really aren't needed. As long as they revise the layout, it'll be golden.