Why GH:WT's drum set is worst than Rock Bands

[JBabin3xb]

Watch a little first...

Dream Theater - Panic Attack ( From the YouTube set list here (http://www.rockband.com/forums/showthread.php?t=63109) )
http://www.youtube.com/v/wNrXNibNUC4&hl=en&fs=1


This why i don't see GH:WT's drum set as that great, sure it has an extra head, but when it comes down to it, they are going to have to chart all of the cymbals to the one crash one pad, keep the high hat a high hat etc. At least with rock band they can change all the pads to cymbals or all to toms to adjust for mega sets. And since GH:WT's are all dedicated, that just makes it harder for impossible songs, which is what they are all about.

Just watch him play, this is what Harmonix was planning for, they knew that the music the fans want was beat out on super sets. The best was to replicate that is to adjust the components to the music rather than have a cosmetically appealing drum set. lets say the intro of a song had 3 cymbals for a soft intro. Rock Band will have converted the pads to cymbals for the intro, then you can tell which one is struck when in the song and their relation to the other cymbals location wise, making it musically accurate. In guitar hero, you get one MAYBE two cymbals if (they go against their dedicated pad stand point) to beat to death.

THAT'S why cymbals matching drum head colors is perfect, flexibility and realism for those who want it!

And another note, why make it wireless when it doesn't need to move?
I can understand a cell phone, laptop, radio, car remote, guitar, mic, TV remote, garage door opener, bluetooth headset, gps, r/c boat, electronic pet. All of those things need to be mobile. But drums? really, even my very expensive electronic kit isn't wireless. Cause it don't move. MAYBE if you need to pack them, but is winding up a cord that much of a hassle?

Edit: Haramonix's kit is now wireless too, but they didn't have to tell everyone at e3 that like guitar hero did.

Thank you Harmonix

[Hannibal Leon]

not to start anything but...

love, logic

and in your title you put

why gh:wt drum set is WORST (worse) then rockbands

[madcow36]

can you really get mad at a wireless drum set? i mean all it does is help you. nothing on a wireless drum set is bad. LOL. and you might redo the video... embedding

EDIT - ther you go xD

[JBabin3xb]

yeah see this is why i'm a roadie

[G_Rob_7]

For me all a wireless drumset means is one less cord for a drunken rockstar to trip over at RB parties.

By the way, RB2's drumset is also wireless so they're the same in that aspect.

The only thing I didn't understand is the Neversoft head honcho (whatever his name is) felt the need to say "OUR DRUMS ARE WIRELESS" in every promo lol, as the op said, who cares. It's the number 1 instrument where a wire doesn't really make that big of a difference.

[JBabin3xb]

can you really get mad at a wireless drum set? i mean all it does is help you. nothing on a wireless drum set is bad. LOL. and you might redo the video... embedding

EDIT - ther you go xD

yeah sorry about the video, i wouldn't mind as much if they didn't mention it every chance they got at e3 that its wireless.

[BioSector]

My 2 year old loves to tug on any wires she can. Wireless drums = one less thing to grab.

Now if she wasn't so interested in the pedal's wire.....

[timdown]

well that means the drums are on batteries though right? not too excited about that but oh well....

[Ryuzaki]

Why your grammar fails more than GH:WT's drums.

Well, nobody knows, actually.


Anyway, your reasoning flat-out sucks.
To put it simply, most songs don't really chart more than two distinct cymbal sounds at a time. Typically there's high and crisp (The hi-hat and/or ride cymbal), and a lower and broader sound (the crash cymbal). While several cymbals could be used in that actual part, like I said before, you could easily categorize them as "low" and "high", and there isn't really much of a distinction within the categories. Because of this, it could easily and understandably be charted to play on two different cymbals, and still work very well, and feel very fluid.

I, for one, would much rather have a realistic-feeling drumset with only two cymbals, than just have four drums in front of me. Really, unless you're purposely trying to nitpick the song, you won't even notice that anything is off. However, on the Rock Band drums, you typically notice that the drum that was triggering the Hi-Hat has suddenly switched to a Tom-Tom.

Guitar Hero's drums will exceed Rock Band's, despite however unoriginal they may be.

[JBabin3xb]

well that means the drums are on batteries though right? not too excited about that but oh well....

if Harmonix managed to get rechargeable packs built in, it's be perfect

since there is no vibration like the ms wireless controller, i hope the battery life is longer

[neogel]

My 2 year old loves to tug on any wires she can. Wireless drums = one less thing to grab.

Now if she wasn't so interested in the pedal's wire.....

My 2 year old is more interested in standing on the pedal and bouncing....you're lucky. She also likes to try to shove the mic into her mouth and hang on the green and red pads.

[ForgottenHero]

I only skimmed through this and I don't even really care what the topic is about but goddamn that is one sick ass kit that guy is rockin.

[HubbubJub]

Why your grammar fails more than GH:WT's drums.

Well, nobody knows, actually.


Anyway, your reasoning flat-out sucks.
To put it simply, most songs don't really chart more than two distinct cymbal sounds at a time. Typically there's high and crisp (The hi-hat and/or ride cymbal), and a lower and broader sound (the crash cymbal). While several cymbals could be used in that actual part, like I said before, you could easily categorize them as "low" and "high", and there isn't really much of a distinction within the categories. Because of this, it could easily and understandably be charted to play on two different cymbals, and still work very well, and feel very fluid.

I, for one, would much rather have a realistic-feeling drumset with only two cymbals, than just have four drums in front of me. Really, unless you're purposely trying to nitpick the song, you won't even notice that anything is off. However, on the Rock Band drums, you typically notice that the drum that was triggering the Hi-Hat has suddenly switched to a Tom-Tom.

Guitar Hero's drums will exceed Rock Band's, despite however unoriginal they may be.

I think a bigger problem will be between hi-hat and ride. Your two options are chart both the hi-hat and the ride on the same cymbal, with the crash on the other, or chart the ride and crash on the same cymbal. Neither is a good solution to a glaring problem (in my opinion, at least). I'm assuming they'll do the former...

Although I do believe hitting two cymbals at the same time does happen... The last hit in Wave of Mutilation has two cymbals charted.

[Zeleii]

The lack of 4 pads representing the toms and snares really limits your options in terms of Fills... they can still do it sure, but it will be very odd... and if not having cymbals really matters to you buy the cymbal pack for the RB2 drums... I know I'll get them just for that added layer of fun :)

[dady5000]

Good post. Makes sense.

[spoonytooth]

I pretty much agree with everything you said except for your use of the word "worst"

[Ryuzaki]

I think a bigger problem will be between hi-hat and ride. Your two options are chart both the hi-hat and the ride on the same cymbal, with the crash on the other, or chart the ride and crash on the same cymbal. Neither is a good solution to a glaring problem (in my opinion, at least). I'm assuming they'll do the former...

Although I do believe hitting two cymbals at the same time does happen... The last hit in Wave of Mutilation has two cymbals charted.

Hardly. The Hi-Hat and Ride Cymbal are almost never used at the same time. You use one or the other to establish a rhythm pattern during a song, and you switch between either the Hi-Hat and Ride Cymbal depending on what sort of tempo/part you're at. So Guitar Hero could easily implement it so that one cymbal acts as both the Hi-Hat and the Ride Cymbal, and you wouldn't even notice the difference. Then the other cymbal could be used as the Crash Cymbal at all times.

Not to mention that, you know, on the Rock Band drums, usually the very right drum represents that Hi-Hat, Crash Cymbal, and the Ride Cymbal. It's a definite improvement in all ways.


The lack of 4 pads representing the toms and snares really limits your options in terms of Fills... they can still do it sure, but it will be very odd... and if not having cymbals really matters to you buy the cymbal pack for the RB2 drums... I know I'll get them just for that added layer of fun

No it doesn't. On the Rock Band drums, you only have three pads for the snares/toms as well. The right-most pad is the cymbal. The Guitar Hero drum will act as just the same during fills, except now you'll have two cymbals to work with.





As to the original poster, you don't really seem to know what you're talking about.
The Harmonix drumset wasn't devised to be compatible with "Super Sets".
"Super sets" are really just your typical drum kit, but with extras of each type of drum/cymbal for added effect. For instance, with three crash cymbals, you can a sustained sound from two, while hitting the other. Or with two Tom-Toms, you can have slightly different pitch variations. Music games, basically, don't have to worry about representing that at all. Those effects are usually so minuscule that they can be easily charted as one note, or in rare cases, two notes. In fact, I think the only time anything like that was charted was Enter Sandman's intro.

[ForgottenHero]

^You are incorrect on many levels, sir.


Not to mention that, you know, on the Rock Band drums, usually the very right drum represents that Hi-Hat, Crash Cymbal, and the Ride Cymbal. It's a definite improvement in all ways.

This is not even close to being correct. The yellow is usually the hi-hat, the blue is the ride cymbal, and the green is the crash. Sometimes the red will be used as the hi-hat as well (RttH, Orange Crush, Move Along, etc).


No it doesn't. On the Rock Band drums, you only have three pads for the snares/toms as well. The right-most pad is the cymbal. The Guitar Hero drum will act as just the same during fills, except now you'll have two cymbals to work with.


Do you even play the drums on this game? Let me just write out the options for each pad (as we've seen so far).

Red - Hi-hat, Snare, High Tom
Yellow - Hi-hat, Snare, High Tom
Blue - Open Hi-hat, Ride, Low Tom
Green - Crash, Floor Tom

The green pad is used for more than just the crash cymbal. It is never used as the ride or hi-hat cymbal.

And I agree with the OP, the GH drums will be limited.

[maitee1]

there is deficiencies in everything everywhere. This is a rock band forum. Let's talk about rock band. Not nitpicking everything about GH:WT to make you feel better about your purchase of rock band or impending purchase of rock band 2. I am pretty sure HMX will survive without the incessant bashing of GH:WT.

Besides wouldn't this be considered preaching to the chior.

[Lizard_King]

op makes good point. we have the advantage of being able to chart 3 toms during charted fills, (RRRRRRRYYYYYYYYYBBBBBBBGGGGGGGGG last Green being a cymbal). while GH only has 2 toms and a couple of cymbals. cymbals are restricited to pads, RB has used all 4 pads, with cymbals, that expands to seven. RB did it right

[Mr. Bass]

The reason I like the RB kit more is because it doesn't force these big cymbals in your face all the time- unlike the GH kit. But, of course, if really want cymbals, you can get the RB2 kit and cymbal extention pack- so you have another drum and cymbal during fills than GH.
And maitee1, true this is the RB site, but no one forced you into this topic.

[Riastlin]

Frankly I'm more concerned about the instruments being wireless. They better be rechargeable or else that'll be a lot of money spent on batteries.

[Rockin_it_all_nite_long]

GH drums are a huge win over RB drums...

Sorry fanboys, but that's just how it is

[Teh_Nfsjunkie91]

Actually, the green cymbal has been used as an open hi-hat in Message in a Bottle, and as a ride cymbal in Maps. Often, the blue cymbal is used a crash cymbal, or a different kind of cymbal, like a china or splash.

[ForgottenHero]

^Exactly, the RB drums are versatile (sp?). The GH drums are locked into two cymbals and 3 drums. Hence the RB drums are superior.

[sparki1980]

GH drums are a huge win over RB drums...

Sorry fanboys, but that's just how it is

I really don't mind seeing a good counter argument, as I'm not good at drums so I don't have an opinion either way right now... But it would have been nice if you at least gave 1 reason. Otherwise you're post equates to forgettable inane chatter.

[Alonzo1948]

The main problem I have with the GH3 drum set is how you activate starpower. While hitting the two crash cymbals at the same time sounds cool, in practice it’s flawed.

In order to activate star power during a song you'd have to get out of the grove to activate it and then continue playing the song. Can you imagine playing RTTH, about to fail and then trying to activate SP? I’d probably fail.

Also because of the way you activate SP the cant correctly chart a song that uses the two cymbals at once.

[eachann]

Since the RB2 drums are reportedly expandable... does that mean that there will actually be symbols for sale that I could somehow plug into my drumset? If that is the case, I'd probably agree that the Rock Band drums are the better set. Otherwise, I really like the GH set.

What you were saying about the versatility of the RB drums, sounds good... but it's kind of a moot point. The GH game and charts are created FOR this drum set, so it will work out just fine for it. The maybe the RB charts wouldn't make as much sense on that set, but i'm sure they'll be great for the game that was written for them. Just like the RB charts work perfectly with the RB drum set, but they might not play as well on the GH set.

[Crowemium]

I still wish that Rock Band would chart the cymbal notes differently. To me, it doesn't seem to be that technically difficult and would address all of the varying degrees of realism that the fans want. Cymbal notes could appear as HOPOs, for instance, and detection could be based upon whether or not cymbals are attached.

[Rockin_it_all_nite_long]

I really don't mind seeing a good counter argument, as I'm not good at drums so I don't have an opinion either way right now... But it would have been nice if you at least gave 1 reason. Otherwise you're post equates to forgettable inane chatter.

1 reason? alright...

GH:WT drumset comes with two cymbals, which are charted INTO the game. Cymbals are things that people have been asking for rock band to have since the release.

Rock Band comes with just pads. Sure, you can pay an extra (about) 40 bucks for add-on cymbals, but are they charted into the game specifically as cymbals? No. They work as the certain color pads that they apply to. So with the rock band cymbals, 99% of people playing will be confused on when they should hit a tom or a crash.

Happy? I've got more if you want them.

[Corvin]

I only skimmed through this and I don't even really care what the topic is about but goddamn that is one sick ass kit that guy is rockin.

That's Mike Portnoy of Dream Theater. Drum god.

As for the topic, GH:WT's drums are collapsible for easy storage. I haven't heard anything from Harmonix about anything similar for the RB2 drum kit. That gives them an edge in my book, especially to people that might potentially own two sets of drums.

[murph]

i agree that GHWT having the cymbals charted is better than RB2's add-on cymbals and leaving it up to the player to know when to use which.

also, Harmonix is the software magicians. Red Octane are the hardware ninjas.

i know opinions are pretty varied, but personally i strongly prefer the GH3 guitars. and the GHWT guitars look hot too with the touchstrip. i think Red Octane (Activision) will continue to lead the way in hardware design.

[army_of_me]

1 reason? alright...

GH:WT drumset comes with two cymbals, which are charted INTO the game. Cymbals are things that people have been asking for rock band to have since the release.

Rock Band comes with just pads. Sure, you can pay an extra (about) 40 bucks for add-on cymbals, but are they charted into the game specifically as cymbals? No. They work as the certain color pads that they apply to. So with the rock band cymbals, 99% of people playing will be confused on when they should hit a tom or a crash.

Happy? I've got more if you want them.
You seem to have missed the point of the OPs argument, however. Or have just chosen to ignore it.

With 2 dedicated cymbal pads comes less flexibility overall.

[Cranioclash]

Do we know for a fact that their cymbals are dedicated? If they can say, 100%, that the cymbal pads will never function as anything but, then RB gets the edge in terms of flexibility because many people have already said, each pad can represent any number of cymbals or toms.

If they chart extended tom fills across their cymbal pads, then GH:WT gets the edge based on having cymbals.

On a related note, I'm all for RB cymbal add-ons. If you know the song, you'll know when to use it.

[leroystanks]

^You are incorrect on many levels, sir.


Do you even play the drums on this game? Let me just write out the options for each pad (as we've seen so far).

Red - Hi-hat, Snare, High Tom
Yellow - Hi-hat, Snare, High Tom
Blue - Open Hi-hat, Ride, Low Tom
Green - Crash, Floor Tom

The green pad is used for more than just the crash cymbal. It is never used as the ride or hi-hat cymbal.

And I agree with the OP, the GH drums will be limited.

I'm pretty sure he meant that, during overdrive fills, you have one pad for snare, two for toms, and one for the crash.

Also, the green pad has most definitely been used as a ride cymbal (Maps, Siva) and a hi-hat (...And Justice For All).

[Tralfmadorian]

The GH set will make playing basic beats very fun, but I don't think it is going to work very well for complex structures.

For me, it is all about the charting. The RB team charts the songs very well for their controller. which makes playing the songs feel intuitive and fun. I will have to see how GHWT charts the songs for theirs before I judge.

Also, to whoever it was who said the star power activation in GHWT is flawed, I actually think theyve designed a better system than RB. I saw mention that the drummer would have to break his groove in order to activate... How is that any different than RB, where we get a whole break in the drum pattern of the song, are subjected to hearing drum sounds that sound completely different than the drum notes in the song, and missing notes each time an activation point comes?

If you can't hit two cymbals in proper time with a song, you probably have terrible rhythm and aren't playing very well anyway.

Although I do agree they'll be limiting themselves on charting in songs where both cymbals are hit at the same time.

[Alright_Computer]

Holy crap, that's a lot of cymbals.

[Project_Mercy]

Playing a cymbal like a pad isn't much different than playing a pad like a cymbal.

Until such time as there's 3 cymbals, 4 pads, and two pedals, the charting is never going to be conducive to every song. I think we're all just mentally used to how HMX is going to chart things for the current 4+1 kit, and we're comfortable with it.

The GH:WT drums are probably crappier for RB use. I expect the RB drums will feel weird in GH:WT. Looking at the GH:WT charting so far suggests that it's fine for its own drums, and the charting, while different, isn't worse.

I'm glad RB now has the ability to have more than a crash and a floor tom in fills. I just wish the charting had suggestions on when something was a cymbal (aka, not required, but useful for those who want to try it, like solo buttons). Oh well, RB3 ftw!

[SmellMyFinger]

How would you be able to activate star power with the RB drum set when playing GHWT anyway?

[KoofNoof]

I'm pretty sure he meant that, during overdrive fills, you have one pad for snare, two for toms, and one for the crash.

Also, the green pad has most definitely been used as a ride cymbal (Maps, Siva) and a hi-hat (...And Justice For All).

Ummm....... no, what the heck, on both Maps and Siva that is a crash, and I dont even know what the heck your talking about for "...And Justice For All", because the High-Hat on that song is definitely charted "yellow". Maybe it sounds like the High-Hat because the drummer is hitting the bell of the crash cymbol?

[dastuffPS3]

well that means the drums are on batteries though right? not too excited about that but oh well....

They probably use a usb dongle thingy.

[The Hungry Samurai]

How would you be able to activate star power with the RB drum set when playing GHWT anyway?

That is a very good question. I must admit though since I heard that RB 1 instruments were compatible with GHWT I dropped my preorder on the bundle for it.

I really like that the RB 2 Cymbal expansion is at least going to differentiate on drum fills and the drum trainer/freestyle mode and i'm surprised that hasn't been mentioned here. During fills or any freeform spots the yellow cymbal wil make a hi hat sound while the yellow pad will make a tom sound and the other two cymbals I believe are supposed to do the same.

This will alleviate the problem mentioned above in losing your groove by playing weird notes during the OD activation, and make the game more fun to freestyle in general.

If the RB 2 drums work with GHWT this might even mean that the cymbal expansion will allow you to use GH's originaly intended 5 piece charts instead of the compacted one's they're preparing. This would be an awesome space and money saving move. /crossesfingers.

[leroystanks]

Ummm....... no, what the heck, on both Maps and Siva that is a crash, and I dont even know what the heck your talking about for "...And Justice For All", because the High-Hat on that song is definitely charted "yellow". Maybe it sounds like the High-Hat because the drummer is hitting the bell of the crash cymbol?

You seem a little confused... look:

Siva
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G3zh9eP5ocg

Starting at :15... the green is charted as the ride cymbal. Later on, during the second quiet part, it's charted as a floor tom.

Then, here, the ride is charted on green starting at :45.

Maps
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5IcFtJWUSIs

As for "...And Justice For All," yeah, the hi-hat is charted to yellow during the verses and during the majority of the rest of the song, but it's on green in the beginning to make it easier to play the tom pattern. Look, starting at :57.

...And Justice For All
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uQ9XLiMfBRo

[JBabin3xb]

Hardly. The Hi-Hat and Ride Cymbal are almost never used at the same time. You use one or the other to establish a rhythm pattern during a song, and you switch between either the Hi-Hat and Ride Cymbal depending on what sort of tempo/part you're at. So Guitar Hero could easily implement it so that one cymbal acts as both the Hi-Hat and the Ride Cymbal, and you wouldn't even notice the difference. Then the other cymbal could be used as the Crash Cymbal at all times.

Not to mention that, you know, on the Rock Band drums, usually the very right drum represents that Hi-Hat, Crash Cymbal, and the Ride Cymbal. It's a definite improvement in all ways.



No it doesn't. On the Rock Band drums, you only have three pads for the snares/toms as well. The right-most pad is the cymbal. The Guitar Hero drum will act as just the same during fills, except now you'll have two cymbals to work with.





As to the original poster, you don't really seem to know what you're talking about.
The Harmonix drumset wasn't devised to be compatible with "Super Sets".
"Super sets" are really just your typical drum kit, but with extras of each type of drum/cymbal for added effect. For instance, with three crash cymbals, you can a sustained sound from two, while hitting the other. Or with two Tom-Toms, you can have slightly different pitch variations. Music games, basically, don't have to worry about representing that at all. Those effects are usually so minuscule that they can be easily charted as one note, or in rare cases, two notes. In fact, I think the only time anything like that was charted was Enter Sandman's intro.


Tell a real musician to forget these "minuscule effects". Those affects are what give a song personality. Its the drummers signature

Tell a Rush fan that Neil's set is your typical drum kit

and no, green is not a hi-hat

[DeadManDrumming]

While I agree their (GH) cymbals are a nice feature its nothing I am going to dump all my DLC over. RB could just as easily create a mimic "Hammer on" system for drums to show when to hit a cymbal.