BWT Single Player - Shared Voice Files?

[BodhiWolff]

Okay, I really feel for the guys that want to do BWT but don't have any local friends to help them out.

I keep reading about how placing the mike next to a CD player wouldn't work. Why not just tweak that idea a bit ...

But what about this?

a. Have internet sensations and good samaritans rock the mike at Rock Band at "hard" level, practice the songs, and then while playing through a song sing into two microphones at the same time -- the Rock Band microphone (making sure their song is up to snuff) and a PC microphone, making an audio file of just their vocals. Make sure to include a big "beep" sound at the exact start of the song, so you know when it starts.

b. Take the audio vocal file of pure, customized Rock Band vocal line and make an MP3 and/or a CD Audio file, and put it up for sharing. The file needs to start at the exact point where your "beep" started on the file, so everybody will start their file playing when the song starts scrolling, and be in synch.

c. Other people download the file, and burn it to a disc, an iPod, etc. Put it on your "Rock Band Vocals" disc or in your iPod's Rock Band folder.

d. Lone Wolf Rockstars play these customized files alongside their own instruments, through your standard audio setup.

Now, I *know* you can put a mike on a speaker and have it pick up without feedback. Musicians do it all the time to their amps. There is a knack to it, but it can easily be done. You just have to find the sweet spot for distance and volume. You'll get less extraneous feedback and signal-loss when there is simply a vocal track on the file, and nothing else. Pan the gain on your stereo all the way to one speaker or the other, mike that single speaker, and you'll be fine!

Wouldn't it be nice, then, if there was a database of perfectly-timed, 5-star recordings of "hard" performances for vocal tracks for Rock Band?

[shivish]

quick question, Rock band world tour cannot be played just by your self?????????

[Tigerbot]

quick question, Rock band world tour cannot be played just by your self?????????

For World Tour you have to have 2-4 people, otherwise you play a mode that is just like GH's single player...

[SmokaCola]

Don't worry about BWT, i'm pretty sure HMX will come out with a patch that allows online play. That'll rule out everyone who doesn't have friends that play Rhythm games, as for the kids that don't have friends/family that play rhythm games and they don't have online...well that's a whole different ball park.

[seafisch]

Or, you could play and sing at the same time. But I like the vocal track idea. Timing would be tricky, though, even if you were able to mike it without feedback.

[fcphantom]

I'd be willing to do this. I have my Starpower podcast recording mic I could use, and I've been switching between hard and expert on the Best Buy demo and usually getting 95-ish percent.

Is there really a demand for it though?

[BodhiWolff]

Is there a demand for it?

Judging by the number of people who ...
a. don't realize that you can't play BWT with only one person
b. start threads complaining once they realize that they can't play BWT with only one person
c. statistically just can't sing well enough *and* play at the same time (tricky to sing well, tricky to sing-and-play even for those who are good singers)

I'd say that there is a demand for it. It has been a big deal, with lots of threads started about it, for quite some time now. Even in this thread, you have people learning apparently for the first time that BWT isn't going to be accessed solo, or online, and they're not happy.

I hope that there is a patch. I really do. I want there to be. We all want there to be!

But let's face it. BWT is *such* a cool idea. After reading all of the blogs and reviews about what it involves, it is like suddenly realizing that somebody finally made a *game* out of the guitar simulators out there! Suddenly, "Sim Band" exists, and it looks super fun! Now there is a meta-game to go along with simply trying to score big within the songs themselves. Not to put too fine a point on it, but there is finally a *game* to play, not just endless levels to pass. Do we risk our fan score on a "sellout" random setlist in order to get lots of cash to buy the jet to open up the overseas markets? Kinda puts unlocking the "new outfit" or buying the "new guitar" on a Guitar Hero avatar into perspective, doesn't it ...

From all reports, solo play is going to basically mimic Guitar Hero-style solo play. Make simple cash, buy some outfits, unlock some songs. No meta-game at all.

So the idea of *not* having access to the BWT game itself has got to grate on some people.

If the patch doesn't materialize, I'd say that there will indeed be a fairly strong market for downloadable, clean vocal tracks that are correctly timed.

[HeXcoda]

Yeah, back when I started a thread pitching solutions for BWT solo, this was one of the options. I think it'd be really cool to see a fansite spring up offering vocal recordings. I've certainly got the means for doing the piped playback of the voice files, and after enough practice syncing them or some common standard for doing so ("Do it when the first note hits" or something) it could be very viable.

Still, considering this is possible... why the heck wasn't BWT just made to allow solo play? Yes, it's not the full experience. Yes, it's "lame". But if you're going to allow a hack like this then why have the artificial barrier in the first place? I don't buy HMX's posted explanation where they vaguely mumbled about game balance. C'mon, now.

Oh well. It's either this or I get good enough to be two people at once by myself... or I wait for the patch (which may never come and the feature will be in RB2008, let's be realistic).

[seafisch]

I'd be willing to do this. Is there really a demand for it though?

I demand that you do this! Hehe, I know that's not what you meant. ;) But if you are willing to do this, you would be a hero to all of the lone wolfs out there (including me).

[fcphantom]

Ok, well I did a quick single-take of Tom Sawyer were I was listening to my iPod and recorded the first half of the song. You can check it out here (http://robk.foxarts.net/ghstuff/fcphantom_sample.mp3).

Please remember this was one take, I didn't have the vocal guide on screen, and be warned that I swear once when I messed up the timing :)

[seafisch]

That was pretty good. But my tender little ears are still burning from that f-bomb you dropped. :eek: j/k

[BodhiWolff]

Phantom, that is exactly the kind of thing I was talking about. Hat's off for taking my little idea one step further, to the "proof of concept" stage.

Now, if imagine if it was done using the actual game to verify the timing/words, and then we could run the mp3 back through the game via the Rock Band microphone and see if it actually functioned as a "pseudo-singer" for the Lone-wolf players.

Phantom, very well done indeed! Thank you for your efforts!

[HeXcoda]

Hear hear! (hah. pun.) It makes a great proof of concept.

Combining this technique with the actual game, a simple fansite, and hosting the files on some crap-o free service like Rapidshare... we could have a powerful tool for solo BWT'ers. There'd need to be some consistent signal for when to start the vocals, and sync may be an issue, but these things can be ironed out.

As much as we'd like to strike while the iron is hot, there's no sense doing more on the project until the game launches, though. Hang on to the concept and get ready for the 20th!

[admanimal]

Is the game really going to be that fun while having to go through all of this trouble to play BWT alone?

Don't mean to rain on this parade...just thinking out loud.

[BodhiWolff]

Fair question, Admanimal.

It is my thread, and my initial musings that started this, so I'll take a crack at answering it ... and frankly, I don't even need the files, 'cause my wife and I are both interested in Rock Band, so I have a built-in partner to play with in the house. None of this actually pertains to me, so maybe I'm in a unique position to discuss it.

But I just keep thinking that if I *didn't* have anybody to play with, I'd love the chance to explore the BWT mode, and see what it had to offer.

I've done some solo recording, multi-tracking stuff, and playing alongside my own tracks. It involves some timing, and some setup, and it is tons of fun after the initial headache phase is finished. I think it'd probably be something similar to that.

For those that really get hooked on the game, and love BWT, but have nobody to play with, I think they'd probably enjoy the workaround, and would find the fun-factor easily outweighs any hassles.

However, I admit that there would be others for whom such a workaround would be too much of a bother.

So I guess we're not trying to please everybody. We're just trying to please those people who have asked for assistance, and who would use whatever we offered up, and wouldn't mind a little hassle to make it work out in the end. A select group, a slightly more die-hard group, but an appreciate group nonetheless.

[dodgyknees]

My wife

a) Can't sing. She's terrible
b) Can't go beyond GH2 tier 3 on easy
c) Has the rythmn skills of a cow playing the piano

If only I'd know this was going to cause a problem all these years later!*





*Mrs Dodge: In case you are reading this I am joking. Please do not throw my 360 in the bin.

[HeXcoda]

*Mrs Dodge: In case you are reading this I am joking. Please do not throw my 360 in the bin.

Someone's getting the couch tonight...

It's going to be a lot of work, but I think the fun will be the reward after setting things up properly. BWT is the game. Period. It is the reason why Rock Band exists, it's what makes this innovative and special. The game wouldn't sell as well if it was just a bunch of dull solo tier grinders plus new instruments and nothing else. Ergo, people who are locked out of BWT because it's not online and they don't have music-game capable friends will do damn near any crazy thing if it gets them access to the true game.

Hopefully RB2008 will have more robust solo offerings... until then, it's sing+guitar, or playback+guitar.

[dodgyknees]

Would they need a RB2008? In theory this game could be endless and therefore the patch could come at anytime. Although I'd buy it in a flash (even though we don't even have a UK release date for RB yet!), what could be added to RB to enhance it?

This is a little OT, I appreciate.

[Bullseye]

Glad to see the innovators stepping up to the plate. I like the D/L idea, because, well, I'm not the best singer, and I'm not sure that I'd want to hear myself played back on an mp3. Luckily, there's a lot of RB interest in my network of friends, so BWT solo will just be a luxury.

Keep up the good work and just as a random thought, would it be possible to play an iPod type device directly into the console, skipping the mic altogether? I'm doubtful that it'd be recognized as a mic, but it'd eliminate the whole "sweet spot" setup routine.

[Electric_Zen]

BWT is the game. Period. It is the reason why Rock Band exists

No

_________

[Bakkster]

No

_________

QFT

Anyone else think it will be FAR easier to just sing+play than to try syncing pre-recorded vocals to the game?

And if you do this, I'm calling you Milli Vanilli. Or Ashlee Simpson.

[BodhiWolff]

I really wish people would be more sensitive when they keep saying "just play and sing". I addressed it earlier, but I'll address it in more depth here.

First off ... some people can't sing. Physically can't. Their vocal chords don't carry pitch steadily, and they're just not that strong of singers. It isn't a judgement on them as human beings! They're just not good at singing!

But the real, strong argument?

For some people, playing-and-singing is not difficult. I'm a musician, and can easily play and sing while playing the guitar, or while playing the piano. I've been doing it for years, at home and on stage.

However, not everybody has the knack, and it doesn't come as easily to everybody. I know *excellent* guitar players who are also very good singers, but doing both at the same time sends their brains into overdrive. It is just a question of wiring, at that point, 'cause empirically they're better guitarists than I am, but I've got the knack to do both at the same time, and they don't. Playing and Singing at the same time, and doing both well, is *not* something that everybody can do -- especially when things get complex (see below).

I recently started playing bass, and at a jam session I tried to sing harmonies and play bass at the same time. My brain didn't want to play bass lines and calculate harmonies at the same time. Or while playing drums, I'll find it difficult to sing really well and play anything other than a simply drumbeat. In other words, the novelty/complexity of the instruments means that the singing portion of my brain sends the instrument portion of my brain into "simple" mode. I can only play simple stuff while singing complex rhythms, or I can only sing simple stuff while playing complex stuff. Not on my "standard" instruments, but on instruments I'm less practiced on, this pattern emerges.

So I can only imagine that this is going to happen for a *lot* of people when it comes to playing RockBand, and when they try to play and sing at the same time.

On "easy", most people who can carry a tune will probably be able to sing and play at the same time. On "medium" you're going to have some people start to fail out. But trying to play the game on "hard" and sing at the same time, especially in sections where the rhythms/patterns don't match, and for those people for whom the wiring doesn't work, and for those people who have difficulty singing at the best of times ... ugh!

So I'd like to ask people to try to be sensitive to our RockBand LoneWolfs out there!

For *you* and *me* it may be easier to play and sing at the same time. Heck, for me it is easier to just grab my wife and make her play the game with me! But saying that again, and again, and again isn't addressing the LoneWolf's issues, or helping them find a solution.

[Bakkster]

First off ... some people can't sing. Physically can't. Their vocal chords don't carry pitch steadily, and they're just not that strong of singers. It isn't a judgement on them as human beings! They're just not good at singing!

But the real, strong argument?

For some people, playing-and-singing is not difficult. I'm a musician, and can easily play and sing while playing the guitar, or while playing the piano. I've been doing it for years, at home and on stage.

However, not everybody has the knack, and it doesn't come as easily to everybody. I know *excellent* guitar players who are also very good singers, but doing both at the same time sends their brains into overdrive. It is just a question of wiring, at that point, 'cause empirically they're better guitarists than I am, but I've got the knack to do both at the same time, and they don't. Playing and Singing at the same time, and doing both well, is *not* something that everybody can do -- especially when things get complex (see below).

Some people fail on easy with the guitar and never play again. I don't think that increased difficulty is a reason for this to not be acceptable. Some people are begging for more difficulty, and this is it.

I don't think there are that many 'Lone Wolf' players who are not be able to handle medium on both guitar/bass and vocals together, as long as they can handle them on their own. If this is you, then I apologize.

[BodhiWolff]

[QUOTE=Bakkster;104690] I don't think there are that many 'Lone Wolf' players who are not be able to handle medium on both guitar/bass and vocals together, as long as they can handle them on their own. QUOTE]

And this, of course, is where we differ.

I don't know how prevalent a problem this is, or if more (or fewer) people can play-and-sing at the same time (or more realistically, play and sing well enough at the same time). Really, the point about how many there are is moot.

To me, it doesn't matter if there many people who cannot play-and-sing, or few. I only care that there are, well, any. Some poor fella' out there who physically can't sing, who lacks the wiring to play-and-sing at the same time, or what have you. Even one guy out there being frustrated is rather a downer, no?

So we're here, collectively trying to find a workaround for that fella'.

For myself, singing-and-playing is my default position. I find it brainlessly easy. But in all likelihood I'll be doing BWT with my wife and friends, and only do the solo thing on a lark. But at least I'm lucky enough to have the genetic programming to be in a position to try it solo if I ever want to. I'm lucky both ways.

For the others in the online community who aren't in the same position I am, I'm happy to try to apply some brainpower to try to find some way for them to unlock some of the more interesting aspects of the game.

[hardyfoster]

i'm thinking somehow if you use an audio activated recording system as well as an audio activated playback system, the recording as well as the players use of the file (playback) can be synced better.

it looks like i'm going to have to roll up my sleeves and try hacking something out of the game to where 1 person can enjoy BWT. this isn't a matter of being online, it's a matter of 1 person being able to play this mode. i'm sure it was probably oversight on HMX's part, which is fine, but i know there is some way around this if they wanted to do it.

in programming, there is always a way around something in a program even if it is a last minute change.

i have thought about "auto-play". in the demo, the bass drum is on auto play. in some other videos, it looked like the vocals were on "auto-play" because the arrow was dead on and didn't waver a bit.

so it might be easier to look for an "auto play" hack. I don't know. i'm not familiar with hacking but i guess it's now time to learn.

Maybe it might be easier for harmonix to have an "auto play" patch instead of having it where you can choose 1 player for BWT.

[fcphantom]

i have thought about "auto-play". in the demo, the bass drum is on auto play. in some other videos, it looked like the vocals were on "auto-play" because the arrow was dead on and didn't waver a bit.

Actually those "dead mic" sections of videos are the talky bits. The game turns off the pitch recognition and the arrow sits on the bottom during any rap or word-screaming sections of the vocal line.

Back on topic, I'll probably create a couple of mp3 tracks of me singing with a master-track song (like my sample on the first page), put it on my iPod and see if I can get it to work with my local Best Buy demo. I'll report in on how it goes when I'm done.

[seafisch]

this isn't a matter of being online, it's a matter of 1 person being able to play this mode. i'm sure it was probably oversight on HMX's part

In a reply to an email I sent to Harmonix, one of the production guys told me it was a design decision not to have BWT playable by a single player.

Maybe if enough Lone Wolfs out there petition Harmonix to patch it, they will give the fans what they want - and isn't that what music is all about? (at its core, anyway, before it gets ruined by crass commercialization and corporatization...)

[hardyfoster]

well that's one dumb decision.

they must have not thought about us 30 / 40 somethings that have different lives from their friends as well as some people won't want to play a game for hours on end like us. paraphrase on something hexcoda said before.

about the auto play singing, i'm not talking about the free fill part, i saw gameplay video during the singing portion where the arrow was dead on with the pitch line. obviously it was on auto play for singing. so, unless they removed all that, there is some way to hack that.

[seafisch]

well that's one dumb decision

QFT

Going back to the "mikeing the vocal track" idea, if you have a 5.1 speaker system, wouldn't the vocal track be exclusive to the center speaker? If so, and if you adjust the game settings so that you only hear the track vocals (and not your own vocals) through the speakers, would there still be feedback if you set the mike in front of the center speaker? (assuming the mike was positioned properly)

Please bear in mind that I'm a relative noob when it comes to speakers and audio setup, so forgive me if my question is the A/V equivalent of "why can't I stick my fingers in the electric socket? they're not a plug, so they shouldn't draw electricity, should they?"

[Bakkster]

Going back to the "mikeing the vocal track" idea, if you have a 5.1 speaker system, wouldn't the vocal track be exclusive to the center speaker? If so, and if you adjust the game settings so that you only hear the track vocals (and not your own vocals) through the speakers, would there still be feedback if you set the mike in front of the center speaker? (assuming the mike was positioned properly)

If you have an isolated vocals track, you could directly connect the speaker wires in place of the mic wires. Then turn down the volume for the mic so it doesn't play out of the speakers and no more feedback. This could work, but Sean has said that they've tried similar things, and it didn't work.

Good luck!

[mxmarks]

As much as I want everyone to be able to play BWT, I just feel like this isn't the anwser.

If this is possible, than just throw the Band Leaderboards out the window. Everyone will be a fantastic singer, and people who are actually singing are going to be upset.

[fcphantom]

As much as I want everyone to be able to play BWT, I just feel like this isn't the anwser.

If this is possible, than just throw the Band Leaderboards out the window. Everyone will be a fantastic singer, and people who are actually singing are going to be upset.

Valid point. FYI, I wasn't planning on posting my best runs, just adequate tracks that sound decent.

Also, remember that these vocal tracks will not have any way to activate overdrive.

[MundaneSoul]

Also, remember that these vocal tracks will not have any way to activate overdrive.

Actually, all the singer would have to do is "Wooo!" at the appropriate parts and they'd still be able to pull it off.

[MundaneSoul]

I'd love to find a solution to solo BWT, but I wouldn't have any fun using a work around like this. At this point, I'll just hope for an eventual online mode. Singing and playing an instrument would be a fun way to pull it off, but you'd actually have to play as two different characters, which would irk me.

Mayhap in the next version/sequel they could make it so that you could play the full BWT solo, but your scores would not count towards the leaderboards. That might be a reasonable fix.

[tbradshaw]

Valid point. FYI, I wasn't planning on posting my best runs, just adequate tracks that sound decent.

Also, remember that these vocal tracks will not have any way to activate overdrive.

Sure they would. The energy gaining notes are predetermined and so one could do predetermined overdrive activation as well.

Hopefully this won't work.

[fcphantom]

Sure they would. The energy gaining notes are predetermined and so one could do predetermined overdrive activation as well.

Sure, they could. But I, for one, won't. The point of this is to be able to play and pass the world tour, not to dominate it with one person.

[hardyfoster]

I think the easiest thing would be for harmonix to patch the game with a code or something so autoplay could be turned on.

[HeXcoda]

I think the easiest thing would be for harmonix to patch the game with a code or something so autoplay could be turned on.

Autoplay would be even worse. Arguably someone, somewhere has to spend X amount of "skill" to record a voice file... autoplay is basically just a big shiny "I win" button. I'm not happy either about the semi-cheating nature of this, but frankly, Harmonix hasn't left us much choice.

--and before the usual suspects post "SING 'N PLAY YOU MORON" as noted, not everybody has the talent to carry two distinct patterns, harmonies, and rhythms while performing them simultaneously. It works for a portion of the population, but that's not the same as an actual solo world tour.

None of this would've mattered if they just gave us a compelling solo career beyond the same mechanic we've been playing for 6 years now (since Frequency). But it's too late now, so best we can hope for is a patch (not likely) or sequel (likely) that addresses it, while at least getting some fun out of playing songs solo and waiting for online BWT.

[BodhiWolff]

Frankly, I had never even considered the idea of "leaderboards". Currently, my Xbox isn't even connected online, and we don't have an Xbox live membership yet. We're probably going to get one simply for access to RockBand DLC, but all of my online gaming is done on the PC.

So, yes, this solution has the potential to mess up the online BWT leaderboards.

Now, to be honest, I don't see this as that big of a deal. I mean, I have as much interest in following who is on top of the leaderboards as I do in following who is currently leading the world tiddly-winks championships. It is no blow to my ego to know that there are people out there who 5-star every song on expert on every instrument. I can't do it personally, and probably never will. I've got nothing invested in that fact.

But if I was one of the top ten people on the boards, then this stuff might interest me, and its impact might have meaning to me.

So the question then becomes ... which is more important? Stroking the online ego-presence of the leaderboad crowd, or allowing access to the meta-game for the Lone Wolf crowd?

To me, letting the 30-something and 40-something crowd who don't have access to friends have access to the meta-game seems more positive to me. It also seems to me that this segment of the population is larger than the upper eschalon of the leaderboard population who might possibly be impacted.

So I say go ahead with it, and let the chips fall where they may.

... and of course, all of this discussion could be made moot via an official patch that allowed online BWT access!

[HeXcoda]

Now, to be honest, I don't see this as that big of a deal. I mean, I have as much interest in following who is on top of the leaderboards as I do in following who is currently leading the world tiddly-winks championships.

Agreed. But, for the sake of people who DO require a quality e-peen measuring stick, keep in mind that scores will still not be scraping the top 500 or likely top 5000. After all, you're just two instruments here, vocals and something else... a full four piece band in BWT mode is certainly gonna kick your ass in terms of scoring regardless of how perfect your taped vocals are. So, it's not gonna ruin the scoreboards. It might muck with the midtier, but that's it.


... and of course, all of this discussion could be made moot via an official patch that allowed online BWT access!

Agreed! I'm hoping they do patch it as they've hinted, rather than hold onto the feature for a sequel (ala GH2+GH3). That'd clear up a LOT! of my problems with the game. (I still wish I could design a band to play around me in solo mode, but having online BWT covers a hell of a lot of the gaps!)

Until that patch hits, this should be a decent enough method of getting Realistic Adult Gamers into the mix on BWT. Afterwards, I'll throw down with you and form a band. :D

[tbradshaw]

To me, letting the 30-something and 40-something crowd who don't have access to friends have access to the meta-game seems more positive to me.

While I would like to agree, most market research doesn't. Early adopters and product advocates (two overlapping market demographics that are unanimously agreed to be very significant) have responded very strongly to online leaderboards, achievements, and other competition based incentives.

In my analysis, you're somewhat at a market boundary. The majority of the 30-something and 40-something demographic appears to fall into three categories: hardcore gamer, social gamer, and casual gamer. Hardcore gamers value the leaderboards, social gamers (obviously) have someone to play with, and casual gamers will be more than satisfied with Quick Play.

You're kind of in between the hardcore gamer and the casual gamer. "Hardcore" in the sense that you want to experience the entirety of what the game has to offer, but "casual" in the sense that the leaderboards mean little or nothing to you.

It's unlikely that there's going to be an immediate solution for you and you'll probably just be excitedly awaiting a patch to play online with BWT. The fictitious solution that would be best is a "cheat" to enable auto play. Not only would this give you a fictitious band mate, but by virtue of using a "cheat" it would bar any scores from online play.

Anyway, that's my analysis.