Rhythm Games + PS3 = Lag [Archive] - Rock Band Forums // Rock Band®

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Weskerz

11-09-2007, 03:40 AM

Here is what I mean by that:

I bought Guitar Hero III last week and theres a lag between the notes and music that wasn't there for GH1, GH2 and rock the 80s on the PS2. Even with the calibrate lag option, the lag is still there. I use my standard CRT television which I used to play GH1, GH2 and Rock the 80s on the PS2 without any lag or calibration. Now I tried with GH3 on PS3 and there is something wrong with the sync in this game or console. I was wandering if it is due to the PS3 or just to the game itself which probably hasn't had a lot of testing before release? I read some posts on the GH3 forums about this problem and it seems like everyone with the PS3 version needs to: turn off surround sound, calibrate lag to 31ms, use RCA standard cables for both audio and video etc. I mean, who in hell wanna do all these calibrations to at least play the game almost properly (cause it stills lag after all these calibrations but less)? We pay the game over 100$ and the PS3 over 600$, we need working product right out of the box without having to tweak anything.

I was wandering if Rock Band will have the same issue because it's on PS3 too, I just don't want the game if it's the case. I don't wanna play a game that is not synced perfectly to the beat and the strumming judgement bar.

Please any admins or coders answer my question: Did you have any issue concerning the PS3 version of the game and is it gonna be fixed? I know it is gonna be wireless so anything about the wireless controller is bad? Do we have to tweak anything to get the game to work properly?

Thank you! :)

PurpleHaze

11-09-2007, 03:52 AM

I was wandering if Rock Band will have the same issue because it's on PS3 too, I just don't want the game if it's the case. I don't wanna play a game that is not synced perfectly to the beat and the strumming judgement bar.

There's some debate about this, but it seems to me that all of the problems with GH3 revolve around audio/video (A/V) synchronisation issues, ie. the audio is out sync with the video - which could be caused by the TV equipment, or possibly even by the PS3 itself. Either way, it won't be a problem in Rock Band, as Harmonix have added options to adjust the A/V synchronisation, which should allow it to correctly sync on any setup.

There is more information in this Harmonix blog (http://community.rockband.com/index.php?do=/public/blog/view/id_497/).

Weskerz

11-09-2007, 04:01 AM

Ok that's good to know! But I really don't thing it's caused by the TV itself becuse I use a standard CRT TV with GH1, GH2 and rock the 80s on PS2 without any lag what so ever. I really think it's due to the fact that they didn't know how to code it correctly for the PS3. There is still some secrets to be find on PS3.

bounchfx

11-09-2007, 04:03 AM

I don't think harmonix would release a game that doesn't work properly... they have QA for this.

Insignificant_Other

11-09-2007, 04:03 AM

There's some debate about this, but it seems to me that all of the problems with GH3 revolve around audio/video (A/V) synchronisation issues, ie. the audio is out sync with the video - which could be caused by the TV equipment, or possibly even by the PS3 itself. Either way, it won't be a problem in Rock Band, as Harmonix have added options to adjust the A/V synchronisation, which should allow it to correctly sync on any setup.

There is more information in this Harmonix blog (http://community.rockband.com/index.php?do=/public/blog/view/id_497/).

It's more than just the audio/video synchronization. It has to do with additional lag from the controller to the PS3 itself that is the problem. This lag has the effect of getting you to actually calibrate incorrectly - you strum at the right time, but then the PS3 doesn't know you strummed until several ms later, so it calibrates a delay that is actually bigger than you want and ends up projecting audio and video way too late, which still throws you off. If you try to manually compensate for that lag by then manually cutting back the delay a few ms, then the a/v stuff will play at the theoretical right moment, but when you strum the PS3 will then think you strummed late (because of the additional time it takes for the signal to get to and be acknowledged by the PS3 hardware). In short, there is no way to win except to patch the software. The devs needed to build in a hard-coded delay that accounts for the controller lag out of the box for calibration to work properly, and they apparently didn't.

Harmonix have been doing this rhythm game stuff for a long time and have an ace tester team. I have faith that they have taken this into consideration.

PurpleHaze

11-09-2007, 04:06 AM

Ok that's good to know! But I really don't thing it's caused by the TV itself becuse I use a standard CRT TV with GH1, GH2 and rock the 80s on PS2 without any lag what so ever.
Yes, I've seen a few people saying that - which possibly suggests that it's the PS3 itself which is not outputting the audio and video in sync.

However, whatever the cause, Harmonix have got it covered with their A/V synchronisation options. :)

PurpleHaze

11-09-2007, 04:19 AM

It's more than just the audio/video synchronization. It has to do with additional lag from the controller to the PS3 itself that is the problem. This lag has the effect of getting you to actually calibrate incorrectly - you strum at the right time, but then the PS3 doesn't know you strummed until several ms later, so it calibrates a delay that is actually bigger than you want and ends up projecting audio and video way too late, which still throws you off.

I don't believe that is the case - the lag calibration is intended to compensate for a delay between the console and the TV, ie. it expects the A/V to be behind the game. Therefore, to solve the problem it was originally designed to solve, the lag calibration doesn't need to adjust the A/V at all, it simply delays the hit timing window to match the delayed output of A/V.

In fact, if the wireless controller were lagging, then the lag calibration should therefore be able to fix it. As far as the game is concerned, there is no difference between the TV lagging behind the game, or the controller lagging behind the game. For instance:

Wireless controller lag:
0ms the console outputs the A/V
0ms the TV outputs the A/V (no lag)
0ms you see the note hit the strum bar, and you strum
30ms the game receives your strum (due to 30ms of wireless controller lag)

Normal HD TV lag:
0ms the console outputs the A/V
30ms the TV outputs the A/V (due to 30ms of TV lag)
30ms you see the note hit the strum bar, and you strum
30ms the game receives your strum (no wireless controller lag)

The end result is the same, the game receives your strum a certain number of milliseconds after it would normally expect.

revert

11-09-2007, 04:23 AM

Problem is, even when I set the lag to 30ms, the lag is still there. I don't see why, but it is. :confused: .

PurpleHaze

11-09-2007, 04:33 AM

Problem is, even when I set the lag to 30ms, the lag is still there. I don't see why, but it is. :confused: .

I assume you're referring to GH3 - in which case I would say it's because it's not lag, it's actually an A/V synchronisation problem, and GH3 doesn't have any options to adjust the A/V synchronisation, unlike Rock Band, and therefore can't fix the problem.

The simplest test to prove whether it's an A/V synchronisation problem is to try doing the lag calibration on an audio basis (ie. listen to the sound, and don't look at the screen), and then try doing the lag calibration on a video basis (ie. look at the screen, and mute the sound). If you get different calibration results for those two tests, then the audio and video are out of sync, and GH3 can't currently fix that.

Comedian

11-09-2007, 04:51 AM

I have GH3 for both PS3 and PS2. I've used both consoles at different times with the same TV setup. I have a PS->Component cable on them going to my receiver, with a component cable then going from the receiver to the projector. Audio is coming out of the R/W cables on the connector - I am not using the digital out.

I had to calibrate GH3 on the PS2 to 35ms to get what felt like an accurate timing window. Previous GH games didn't use any lag adjustment at all on my setup, so I'm not sure where that difference comes from. On the PS3 version of GH3, I had to set the lag offset to 50ms to get the same feel. This is the value I get from not looking at the screen, but just strumming with the beeps on the Lag Calibration menu. I've also deliberately strummed notes in a song early and late on both systems and confirmed that I have about the same ability to miss on both sides of the note (i.e. the hit window is centered).

Despite all this, I miss notes much more frequently on the PS3 than I do on the PS2. For example, I like to go through and get an FC on all the Easy songs (I'm a bit OCD like that). On the PS2 I'll fail to get a 100% on about 1 song in 10, and always because I know I messed up. Played the wrong note, strummed at the wrong time, some bonehead thing like that. But on the PS3 it took me 10 tries to get through Story of My Life with a 100% (longest hour of my life). The game would simply register a miss at some point, usually when I was transitioning from Red->Green, or Green->Yellow held notes. Notes that I knew I was hitting correctly.

My conclusion is that it's GH3's Les Paul guitar controller that is causing this. Maybe there's a loose connection between the neck and the base, or maybe the contacts under the buttons of the fret are a bit flakey. Or maybe the transmission lag between the controller and the dongle is variable - sometimes 30ms, sometimes 50ms.

Could this be what you are experiencing? Does every note have a lagged timing window, or just some?

And just to keep this relevant to Rock Band; if it is the controller I have high hopes that the Rock Band Strat will be of higher quality.

PurpleHaze

11-09-2007, 04:57 AM

I had to calibrate GH3 on the PS2 to 35ms to get what felt like an accurate timing window. Previous GH games didn't use any lag adjustment at all on my setup, so I'm not sure where that difference comes from. On the PS3 version of GH3, I had to set the lag offset to 50ms to get the same feel. This is the value I get from not looking at the screen, but just strumming with the beeps on the Lag Calibration menu.
You say the lag offset is 50ms if you strum to the beeps and don't look at the screen - that implies that you get a different lag offset if you do it by looking at the screen. If that is the case, then the only possible reason for that difference is that the audio and video are out of sync, that could not be caused by the controller.

Comedian

11-09-2007, 05:07 AM

You say the lag offset is 50ms if you strum to the beeps and don't look at the screen - that implies the result is different if you do it by looking at the screen. If that is the case, then the only possible reason for that is that the audio and video are out of sync, that could not be caused by the controller.

That's just the way I've always done it. In all the GH lag calibration screens, I've never been quite sure whether I was supposed to strum with what I see or what I hear. I realize now from reading the Harmonix blog linked earlier in this thread that it shouldn't matter for the type of lag calibration that the GH series is doing.

I'll try tonight both ways and see if I get a difference.

PurpleHaze

11-09-2007, 05:15 AM

That's just the way I've always done it. In all the GH lag calibration screens, I've never been quite sure whether I was supposed to strum with what I see or what I hear. I realize now from reading the Harmonix blog linked earlier in this thread that it shouldn't matter for the type of lag calibration that the GH series is doing.
Indeed, I think that has confused a lot of people, I know it certainly confused me initially. If the audio and video are correctly in sync, then you should never even get to the point of questioning whether you're supposed to calibrate lag by what you see or what you hear, because what you see and what you hear should already be in sync anyway.

TreoRock_

11-09-2007, 05:25 AM

Wasn't there a review of someone playing the Rock Band guitar on the PS3? I don't recall reading anything about a lag. If somebody finds it we could ask the reviewer that questions and problem solved while Rock Band gets released.

Al

bietta

11-09-2007, 05:48 AM

TreoRock_

11-09-2007, 06:19 AM

For those of you having a lag on their PS3 could you share the specs?
1. PS3 System?
2. Connection cable used from the PS3 to the TV.
3. Type of TV
4. Date the PS3 was purchased.

Thanks,

Al

metalfenix

11-09-2007, 07:26 AM

For those of you having a lag on their PS3 could you share the specs?
1. PS3 System?
2. Connection cable used from the PS3 to the TV.
3. Type of TV
4. Date the PS3 was purchased.

Thanks,

Al

1. US PS3 60 GB
2. Component cable
3. CRT TV 21"
4. February 2007

Redebo

11-09-2007, 07:35 AM

revert

11-09-2007, 07:42 AM

60gb
RGB
CRT TV 19"
July 2007

Weskerz

11-09-2007, 08:22 AM

40gb PS3 bought on October 2007

1rst config / 2nd config

Video - HDMI / RCA
Audio - Optical cable, RCA / RCA
TVs - HDTV Panasonic TH-42PZ700 / Sony standard CRT TV
Resolution - 1080p, 1080i, 720p and 480p / 480i
Receiver - Denon AVR-1708 and directly on TV / Denon AVR-1708 and directly on TV

visualdeity

11-09-2007, 08:55 AM

My guess is it's your setup, mate. I run GH3 on my PS3 (60 GB), and LCD HDTV, with no lag whatsoever. I realize this doesn't exactly help you fix it, but take comfort in the fact that it's not the PS3's fault, at least, so maybe lag calibration will help. :)

crivit

11-09-2007, 08:57 AM

that's the same fear i have

i have bought ps3 to play Rock Band!

And now after GH3 i'm a little afraid...
Also for example Pro evolution soccer 2008 as a lot of lagging problem on ps3 but it works perfectly on xbox360..

My question is... all of rock band Tour around USA.. all of Best Buy Rock band playable Demos .. they were all on ps3 or Xbox360??

Cause if someone played on ps3 without any problems, that could solve the question!

The Wal-Mart demos are on PS3. I've played it at 2 different stores with no problems, but the demo guitars are wired, not wireless. That doesn't answer any questions about possible controller lag, but at least it looks like the software is ok. Go check the Christmas section of your local Wal-Mart, hopefully they'll have one set up you can try for yourself.

TreoRock_

11-09-2007, 09:03 AM

visualdeity

11-09-2007, 10:20 AM

Do you mind sharing all your settings? Including the type of cable you used and maybe the brand?

Not at all. I have a 60 GB PS3, which I don't know the model # of off the top of my head, but I don't recall there being any hardware revisions to the specific types of PS3s yet. My TV is a Westinghouse LT7-27w7 HD, and I'm using the standard Sony PS component cable.

TreoRock_

11-09-2007, 10:25 AM

Not at all. I have a 60 GB PS3, which I don't know the model # of off the top of my head, but I don't recall there being any hardware revisions to the specific types of PS3s yet. My TV is a Westinghouse LT7-27w7 HD, and I'm using the standard Sony PS component cable.

The standard Sony component cable could be the key to this specially for HD TVs. I've heard of people getting advice of getting the cheapest cable they could find because it is the same. Well, for the PS3 I would stick with the Sony brand or good quality cable. And that is just my opinion of what I would say.

Al

hardyfoster

11-09-2007, 10:27 AM

theres no problems with the ps3 and lag.

i don't know where the video is at this moment, but there is a video showing
harmonix and what they did to compensate for all the different tv's and such.

there are options to custom the game to your tv type.
there is also an option to do it manually in case it isn't in the list.

so they took care of everything current as well as into the future.

pntbllrspdr

11-09-2007, 11:39 AM

all i did was calibrate lag and it worked fine

bietta

11-09-2007, 01:12 PM

The Wal-Mart demos are on PS3. I've played it at 2 different stores with no problems, but the demo guitars are wired, not wireless. That doesn't answer any questions about possible controller lag, but at least it looks like the software is ok. Go check the Christmas section of your local Wal-Mart, hopefully they'll have one set up you can try for yourself.

that's a good thing!

I feel a little better now!

i live in Italy.. we don't have wal-Mart demos.. so it's actually a bit hard for me to try the game.. but your experience makes me a little more relaxed :)

the software is ok.. that's the most important thing.

thank u

dragulaAC

11-09-2007, 03:01 PM

US 60gb ps3
HDMI
Sony Bravia XBR2 52" 1080P
May '07

RockBand.com