Extreme Lag in drum fill sections [Archive] - Rock Band Forums // Rock Band®

bugnutz

11-20-2007, 07:45 AM

Bakkster

11-20-2007, 07:48 AM

I have noticed that there is an extremely bad lag in the drum fill sections. For example, in the fill sections, you hit a pad, and then half a beat later, it actually makes the sound. This makes it very difficult to stay in time when the fill section is over. The timing is spot on in the rest of the song, but in any song with a fill section, the lag is terrible. I had to apply a 200ms delay for A/V calibration, and it seems that this is not being used when playing the fills. This seems like a bug. Anyone else seeing this?

bug

If you have a 200ms audio delay on your system, that means your speakers wait 200ms to play audio. This is a problem with your signal path, not with RB. Try using a direct analog audio connection to your speakers, if possible.

Loxguard

11-20-2007, 07:53 AM

I have noticed that there is an extremely bad lag in the drum fill sections. For example, in the fill sections, you hit a pad, and then half a beat later, it actually makes the sound. This makes it very difficult to stay in time when the fill section is over. The timing is spot on in the rest of the song, but in any song with a fill section, the lag is terrible. I had to apply a 200ms delay for A/V calibration, and it seems that this is not being used when playing the fills. This seems like a bug. Anyone else seeing this?

bug

It makes since that the lag calibration wouldn't have any effect on the fill section. If your system has a 200ms audio delay...there is absolutely no way to compensate it, since it would require that the system send the audio signal for your fill section 200ms before you actually played it, and I'm fairly sure that no console can predict the future...yet.

bugnutz

11-20-2007, 07:53 AM

If you have a 200ms audio delay on your system, that means your speakers wait 200ms to play audio. This is a problem with your signal path, not with RB. Try using a direct analog audio connection to your speakers, if possible.

So you are saying on any system that has a AV system lag setting, drum fills are going to sound like this? I guess that makes sense. This was set up on my friends system with a digital connection to his receiver. I'll hook it up to my set up later which is all analog. Hopefully it wont have any lag. It's kinda annoying. I ended up just not playing anything during fills.

bug

Bakkster

11-20-2007, 08:01 AM

So you are saying on any system that has a AV system lag setting, drum fills are going to sound like this? I guess that makes sense. This was set up on my friends system with a digital connection to his receiver. I'll hook it up to my set up later which is all analog. Hopefully it wont have any lag. It's kinda annoying. I ended up just not playing anything during fills.

bug

Yes. Lag calibration works by sending the audio early to the speakers so it outputs on time. Mic vocals and freeform fills can't be predicted, so they will be delayed.

On your analog setup things should work fine.

Barrid

11-20-2007, 01:18 PM

I see the same problem. My XBox 360 is hooked to my DLP TV via HDMI and I'm listening through my TV's speakers. I'm going to keep playing around with the calibration options and hopefully things will be fixed.

vidwiz

11-20-2007, 01:48 PM

I just posted but I don't see it here

Try disabling dolby out.

batsu336

11-20-2007, 02:28 PM

yeah 200 ms is a huge delay when it comes to music beats. That's 1/5 of a second, man. You figure an average rock song speed is 120 beats per minute, which is 2 beats a second. That puts you almost one half a beat behind if you are trying to play off your delayed sound. Find a way to just pipe the sound out without any delay settings!

Jman03

11-20-2007, 03:26 PM

And on that note, does anyone have any suggestions as to how I can do that (bypass the delay caused by my A/V receiver)? I've got optical cable going directly from the 360 to the receiver so I can't doing anything simpler in terms of cabling. I'm getting enough delay to make fills impossible and I don't know what to do short of bypassing my entire home theater system and using my crappy old CRT with the built-in speakers. Anyone had any success messing with the settings on their receiver (i.e. disabling DSP and Dolby, etc.)?

Bakkster

11-20-2007, 03:31 PM

If disabling all optional sound settings doesn't help, it might simply be your stereo receiver. It sucks, but it's the only other thing I can think of.

toelessfoot

11-20-2007, 03:41 PM

I really hope my Logitech z5500 have no lag.

evilzom

11-20-2007, 04:04 PM

this has nothing to do with the AV calibration... AV calibration is the delay between the audio and the video...

This problem is strictly audio... the time from which you strike the pad until the sound comes out your speakers..

Im having the exact same issue... and it doesnt matter if i have a 50ms delay set or a 0ms...

You can test this my hitting the pads just before the song starts in that sort of freeplay few seconds...

Ive tried switching audio cables from optical to red/white analog... no difference...

it really makes the open fills horrible sounding... even more horrible than they sound already... and totally throws off your timing...

yes av delay changes the difference between the audio of the game and the video... but we arent takling about that... we are talking about the fact that as soon as you strike a drum pad, sound should immediately come out of the speakers... this has nothing to do with getting credit for hitting notes that are coming down the fret boards... completely different... this is only when the open fill sections on active and you need to play freestyle... but its almost like your pads are echoing the sound...

so its either a cable issue, but more likely a receiver processesing or xbox processing issue... not processing the sound fast enough when you strike a pad...

cheap electric drum sets have this issue... but obviously everyone is not being affected by this... or they are just not keen enough with drums fills to realize it.

Jman03

11-20-2007, 04:13 PM

Yeah, if I disable dolby and run my receiver in straight 2ch mode (no DSP), it cuts down the lag to a managable level. I also tried running analog through the receiver and got about the same results. I don't think it's quite as "perfect" feeling as when I tried it through a CRT TV using the built-in speakers (that was like zero lag), but at least the fills are doable now without completely dropping the beat. What kills me is that it doesn't sound NEARLY as good a with dolby, multi-channel amplification, etc.
So is this the choice everybody is having to make for this game: Digital sound or good drum fills...but not both? Is this effecting everybody with home theater systems or is my receiver just slower than most?

evilzom

11-20-2007, 04:17 PM

ive had mine set to 2ch from the beggining and still get it...

i have a higher end Yamaha receiver.

arnie335

11-20-2007, 04:39 PM

sa_nick

11-21-2007, 12:58 AM

Man, i never liked the idea of drum fills. It just keeps getting worse...

Teqniek

11-21-2007, 01:08 AM

im kinda having the same problem but not as bad.. i have to hit my drum a little early to actually get the note... i have my 360 connect via hd to my monitor n my monitors sound going into my surround sound.... does any one recommend anything?? i really dont want to hear the crappy sound coming from the monitor...

Bakkster

11-21-2007, 01:09 AM

After 2 hours of calibrating i finally got a good setting. 100ms. Now, im getting this crappy "solo lag" that destroys the entire rythm and song! Is a patch even possible to fix this? I think i want my money back.. Guitar Hero 3 is just as horrible and the Wireless Guitar lags really bad with no negative calibration.

- 1 angry musician

No, this wouldn't be patchable, since any delay is likely caused by your stereo receiver, or any other components in the audio signal path. It is a problem with digital audio taking time to encode and decode. If your stereo system takes a long time to do this, you get audio lag, and there is no way to calibrate out the lag from singing and drum fills.

Jman03

11-21-2007, 02:37 AM

I guess the best hope is to run analog audio from the 360 to my receiver and out through my home theater speakers. It won't sound a great as digital, but at least I can crank it through my nice surround speakers. Problem is, I'm still getting a tiny amount of lag even with the analog solution (nothing beats just going through the TV speakers). I'd really like to get it down to virtually zero and still be using my surround speakers...
Right now, I have my 360 set to use dolby digital (in the menu settings). Sound is coming out of both the analog RCA jacks AND the optical cable. SOOO, I'm wondering if some lag is still being generated by the 360 because of it outputting digital audio (even when I'm not using it). I don't know if the 360 actually has to do any real processing to output digital audio or if it is already encoded on the source... or how that works. And I don't know why lag in the digital output would effect the analog output, but who knows. Anyway, I'll mess with that after work today.
Could my receiver really be adding some lag (more than going through the TV speakers anyway) even with analog input and no DSP? That's ridiculous. Anyone know any tricks to bypass even more circuitry in the amplifier?

Bakkster

11-21-2007, 02:58 AM

Right now, I have my 360 set to use dolby digital (in the menu settings). Sound is coming out of both the analog RCA jacks AND the optical cable. SOOO, I'm wondering if some lag is still being generated by the 360 because of it outputting digital audio (even when I'm not using it). I don't know if the 360 actually has to do any real processing to output digital audio or if it is already encoded on the source... or how that works. And I don't know why lag in the digital output would effect the analog output, but who knows. Anyway, I'll mess with that after work today.
Could my receiver really be adding some lag (more than going through the TV speakers anyway) even with analog input and no DSP? That's ridiculous. Anyone know any tricks to bypass even more circuitry in the amplifier?

I doubt that output to both analog and digital would cause an analog lag, BUT it's always possible. I would try unplugging the digital cable.

It's most likely that your receiver is adding the lag. If it is a newer receiver, it could even be converting from analog to digital, then back to analog for the speakers, which induces a lag. Fewer advanced settings and extra steps means less lag. Unfortunately, some receivers are designed with that lag as a secondary consideration. The only way to bypass these steps is if your receiver has a reduced function mode (skips any digital steps) or to get a low-latency receiver.

evilzom

11-21-2007, 03:30 AM

i still get lag also with analog... and i unhooked the optical just incase...
i dont have any dolby enable in my xbox settings either...

i wish there was an option to not have the open fills... they come a crappy times and really screw up the songs... but i dont know of any other way they could have given the drummer Overdrive opportunity...

sucks

anyone here that is 100% sure they have 0 fill and mic lag care to tell us what receivers they are using?

superchud

11-21-2007, 04:13 AM

Check to see if you have a 2ch direct analog input on your receiver, that will bypass all digital conversion issues.

No lag using Rotel preamp.

evilzom

11-21-2007, 04:57 AM

meaning the red and white rca jacks? or is it a special input altogether?

Bakkster

11-21-2007, 05:04 AM

meaning the red and white rca jacks? or is it a special input altogether?

There may be a separate line-in input on your receiver. Check your instructions or contact the company that made it.

evilzom

11-21-2007, 05:38 AM

thanks, ill check it out...

looking at the back of my receiver...

http://www.superfi.co.uk/images/rxv620rear.jpg

i dont see one... unless they all are except for the Coaxial and the Opticals

Bakkster

11-21-2007, 06:51 AM

superchud

11-21-2007, 07:00 AM

thanks, ill check it out...

looking at the back of my receiver...

http://www.superfi.co.uk/images/rxv620rear.jpg

i dont see one... unless they all are except for the Coaxial and the Opticals

http://img517.imageshack.us/img517/6388/rxv620rearkr9.th.jpg (http://img517.imageshack.us/my.php?image=rxv620rearkr9.jpg)
Does that say 6 ch input? I cant see it to well.

If so plug your analog output from the xbox360 in to the one that says main. Then on your receiver you should be able to select 6 ch input.

Hope that helps.

evilzom

11-21-2007, 08:26 AM

ahh... yes it is a 6 channel input... and if i remember right its for using an external processor... this might just work...

all the other red and whites are analog as well and I and tried them will all effects processing off... but i still have a bit of noticeable lag...

man I sure hope the 6 channel input is the answer...

thanks bro.

Wakenbaked

11-21-2007, 09:43 AM

Bakkster

11-21-2007, 10:02 AM

I'm having a problem ONLY during the drum fills. It plays find during the song except during the drum fills there is extreme lag. The problem is not my PS3, TV or stereo because everything else works fine (except the GH3 guitar of course.)

Should I calibrate? Any ideas?

I'm pretty sure it's either your TV or receiver. How is your audio hooked up? Do you have the same problems while singing?

If you can, connect a microphone to either the TV or receiver's audio input, and see if you get a delay from that.

evilzom

11-21-2007, 03:06 PM

if everything works perfectly except the drum fills lag then its whatever you are using for sound... either your receiver or your tv... plain and simple... period.

it has nothing to do with the in game AV calibration... that is to adjust the delay between your video and sound...

i decreased mine by changing from a digital cable to a red and white RCA thru my receiver into the CD input and switching that channel to analog... not perfect but much better than running it thru a digital channel...

the reason that you have never had issue with GH3 is because GH3 doesnt have to produce sounds based on your actions..its all just audio video sync... which is why the same is true for rockband guitar play... but you add in the fact that now the game has to play a sound when you strike a pad and you now have the issue of the time delay from the time that you strike the pad until your audio source processes and plays that sound... which is where the lag comes in... that has nothing to do with why GH3 works perfectly.

Jman03

11-22-2007, 07:16 AM

Yep, this is where I'm at too except I used the VCR analog input because the CD input was already being used for cable TV. I'm going to assume there is no difference between the two. Just like evilzom said, I get much reduced lag...but not zero. My primary concern now is the hit detection on the pads making it impossible for me to play fast stuff. The red pad seems to be worse than the others, so it might be a malfunction with the drum hardware. Is anyone else having this problem? I think there are separate threads dedicated to this issue, so I'll check that out.

omghi2u

11-22-2007, 10:12 AM

Bakkster

11-22-2007, 11:50 AM

Can someone explain to me exactly what the issue is because I have the xbox 360 version, optical sound (is there any way else to go? why would I want to go back in technology when we should be moving forward!??!?) and I'm noticing problems with my drums in regards to hitting them on time. I know I know, its probably me. Thats what I thought at first, Until I called my good friend over (who is a drummer in a band **signed and released btw**) and he immediately said it was off. I haven't touched any calibration but if there is not solution for optical sound, are you telling me I have to downgrade my sound? Can somebody please elaborate.

If your drummer friend found the timing to be off, you might want to have him help you with the lag calibration.

As far as digital sound, the lag is a trade off for more audio information and longer cable lengths. Digital audio doesn't degrade as easily. Unfortunately, it also requires processor time to encode and decode. The cascade of multiple encodings, decodings, and other digital modifications is what causes most audio latency in rhythm games. Really, digital audio is great, but the supporting technologies to do it quickly are expensive. The result is that stereo makers take shortcuts or use cheaper parts, adding latency in the process. Even the most high-end receivers trade latency for enhanced sound quality, because they don't have games like Rock Band in mind when they develop their hardware. Maybe as games and other applications for stereo systems become more prominent, stereo companies will take this into consideration.

vtjustinb

11-22-2007, 06:24 PM

I get pretty bad lag in the fill sections (just xbox connecting directly to my DLP) and it's infuriating. Pretty much to the point now where I just don't play anything in those sections because it sounds so bad and throws everyone off so badly.

maverik

11-22-2007, 08:02 PM

You might be able to resolve this by changing your video output settings.

Your TV might be upscaling or downscaling your signal which is causing the delay.

For example, some DLP manufactures (that shall remain nameless) sale "1080p? sets for around 1g. But what they don?t advertise is that they don't accept a 1080p signal: only 720p or 1080i that gets converted.

Find out what your TVs native support signal is and set you system to it. you should then be able to eliminate the video lag.

eduardonoso

11-22-2007, 08:34 PM

The drum fill lag really kills me too. It is so disorienting to have the hits lag. It seems the best way to fix this is to move your A/V delay so the click happens a little before the bar lines up with the outline. Ideally when you move on to the second part of calibration your testing should fall between 0ms to -15ms. This has given most accurate fills, but I think it has a negative effect on vocals and guitar.

What they need to do is let you set the lag separately for each instrument.

astonius

11-24-2007, 11:50 AM

I'm having the same problem. I am a drummer, and I was really confused when my fills where coming through the speakers on my tv nearly half a beat late. It's very annoying, and I wish they would have just left them out completely. It's so bad that I just don't even play at all during fill sections. It happens on any tv I've played on, digital or analog audio, regardless of how the lag is calibrated. I'm hoping Harmonix will figure out a way to patch it. I'd be perfectly happy with it being completely removed from the game; it was a bad idea in the first place.

cakefoo

11-24-2007, 06:46 PM

Come on, 4 pages of people blaming their audio equipment?

In the XMB (the main system menu on PS3) there's an audible tick sound effect every time you hit the d-pad. That sound responds with absolutely NO DELAY on my system, so I know for a fact my hardware doesn't lag. But when I play a fill or stray note on drums in Rock Band there's a distracting 200ms delay.

I'm a drummer myself of more than 5 years, and you can bet your life I can play a fill, but 200ms of delay is huge when playing fills (as they usually tend to be fast for showing off) it throws me off so much that I don't even try to be rhythmic any more- it always sounds embarrassingly bad- I just lash out as fast as I can and time the cymbal based on the note's position visually.

pico210

11-25-2007, 01:57 AM

Hi , I'm new guys.

I'm a drummer of 4 years, and I was so excited about this game. After a few days with it, I become more disappointed with it. I seem to keep having a lag issue. I have a tube 30 in HD tv (Samsung TX-S3082WH). Even when I use the regular analog cables directly to my TV and have it set to CRT, I still get lag. I find myself having to play a tad bit before or after the drum actually hits. I have to concentrate on the notes coming down as opposed to actually playing with the song in sync. This COMPLETELY takes away from the experience. I have tried to calibrate manually and I still get the same darn result! What's the deal yo? $180 for lag? The drum fills are the same. They delay in sound and it ruins a killer fill I can dish out. What can I do?

dagware

11-25-2007, 06:30 AM

EDIT: I'm withdrawing this post because I did *NOT* solve the lag problem. I'm not sure why I thought I did, but I didn't. :mad:

Dan

Bakkster

11-25-2007, 08:22 AM

Good to hear you found a way to fix the problem!

EvilHerb

11-25-2007, 08:30 AM

I have now verified that the lag in the drum fill sections is almost completely caused by the audio processing going on in my system. When I switched to use RCA cables from my PS3 to my receiver, and set my receiver to plain-old analog stereo, the problem almost completely went away. I'd say I still have a tiny delay, but manageable.

The part I find fascinating is that I would have bet money that the problem was only happening during fills. But it turns out it was happening all the time. Why didn't I notice it? My theory is that when I was playing non-fills, I was focusing on eye-hand coordination by concentrating on the screen. When I hit the note correctly, I received visual feedback that I was correct. I either ignored the audio or my brain just adjusted it also. But when it was time for fills, there was nothing visual to focus on, so the brain switched from eye-hand to ear-hand coordination, and since it was off, everything went wonky. My brain just couldn't adjust for that without the visual stimulus.

Someone should do a study on this, because it's fascinating.

Anyway, to everyone else with this problem, now you know the solution. My guess is that there's better audio equipment that might lessen this problem. Perhaps I'll do an informal poll and see what equipment tends to cause the least problems, because of course any excuse to upgrade equipment is a good excuse, right?

Dan

I am convinced its the drums and not the system . When I do a fill the drum graphic on the screen lights up late too ( after the strike and not exactly on ) . How does your system change when the graphic lights up ?

dagware

11-25-2007, 08:34 AM

I am convinced its the drums and not the system . When I do a fill the drum graphic on the screen lights up late too ( after the strike and not exactly on ) . How does your system change when the graphic lights up ?

Yes, I withdraw my previous post (I'll see if I can edit it or not). I'm not sure why I thought I fixed the problem, but it turns out I didn't. :mad:

I'm not sure about the lights, but I'd bet you're correct. Try the easy training mode, the first test of whether each pad works or not. You can see the lag there very clearly.

Sigh.

Dan

nate

11-25-2007, 08:52 AM

I have a Harmon-Kardon AVR-235 receiver. I have the options on my remote to use dsp, dts, etc, and i have one that says stereo. If i press the stereo button a few times I have an option for "surround off", and I have zero lag in this configuration. I don't know much about receivers, but i believe this bypasses all digital processing.

EvilHerb

11-25-2007, 08:53 AM

Yes, I withdraw my previous post (I'll see if I can edit it or not). I'm not sure why I thought I fixed the problem, but it turns out I didn't. :mad:

I'm not sure about the lights, but I'd bet you're correct. Try the easy training mode, the first test of whether each pad works or not. You can see the lag there very clearly.

Sigh.

Dan

Hey dan now you know its the drums and not your gear . I alread call EA and have the new generation drums on the way . You should do the same . Its free .

Bakkster

11-25-2007, 09:17 AM

I am convinced its the drums and not the system . When I do a fill the drum graphic on the screen lights up late too ( after the strike and not exactly on ) . How does your system change when the graphic lights up ?

Actually, that could be both an audio and visual lag, assuming it happens for all instruments. If your new drums don't fix the problem, try calibrating this.

I have a Harmon-Kardon AVR-235 receiver. I have the options on my remote to use dsp, dts, etc, and i have one that says stereo. If i press the stereo button a few times I have an option for "surround off", and I have zero lag in this configuration. I don't know much about receivers, but i believe this bypasses all digital processing.

That sounds exactly correct.

irlsanders

11-25-2007, 12:02 PM

Yes. Lag calibration works by sending the audio early to the speakers so it outputs on time. Mic vocals and freeform fills can't be predicted, so they will be delayed.

On your analog setup things should work fine.

Not quite right. Modern digital TVs take time to buffer and process the VIDEO signal, so the audio has to be delayed to match. As has been said, audio can't be sent BEFORE it happens. If any of you have invented a Digital Anticipator, let me buy the patent rights, okay? ;)

For people with AV Receivers, there is often an option for Pure-Direct (Denon) or something similar that passes the audio straight through with no processing. You will lose surround and the subwoofer, so decide if good sync or good sound is more important to you. Modern AV receivers also incorporate a voice-sync delay, so make sure you are doing your RB calibration after hooking up your full audio system - meaning don't calibrate through the TV and later hook up a receiver.

The best sync will be achieved by going analog video and audio directly into a CRT type television, which will avoid all processing delays (except those created by the console itself).

That said, I find the drum lag deadly, but can deal. As a tuba player, I am used to playing a little ahed of the beat to get the notes to sound on time. With practice, you can play your fills in time the same way.

vidwiz

11-25-2007, 04:57 PM

Bakkster

11-25-2007, 10:40 PM

Finally, someone who realizes its in the peripherals or the programming or the console hardware NOT the displays or receivers. They might have processing delays but 200ms, (I'll go with that number), c'mon...

Well, some people have fixed the problem through their receivers. Some people might still have lag from the console, but it's just as likely to be your equipment.

dagware

11-26-2007, 01:19 AM

Hey dan now you know its the drums and not your gear . I alread call EA and have the new generation drums on the way . You should do the same . Its free .

Seriously? They admit it's a problem? So you just called them and explained the problem, and they said they'd send out a new set?

Dan

Nazz

11-26-2007, 04:56 AM

Yes can we PLEASE stop referencing the audio and video equipment on this? This is not the issue for this thread. It is not the peripheral either, it's the game itself.

I am a drummer of 24 years and find the same delay in the drum fill section ONLY. That means that the game itself is calibrated to a different timing than the fill itself. The fills are at least a half second off. On top of that, they volume on the fills are way more than the rest of the song and for that matter there are a few songs where the fill breaks are during the middle of a phrase in the verse instead of the end of the phrase like in a real song.

I'm a bit surprised with Harmonix having "drummers on staff" that they okay'ed this type of rubbish to be included in the game. Not only is it not realistic or representative of the song itself, it's stupid. In 'Tom Sawyer' give us the real fills, we can handle them, we don't need three seconds of hit every pad you can as quickly as you can. You don't allow guitars to randomly strum in the middle of a song, so why would you do that for drums? The only place in the game for this type of free play is at the end of the song in the "big rock ending'. Otherwise, it sucks, BIG TIME.

I also agree with the other drummers here, I don't play those sections at all. Most of the time, I don't even hit the "overdrive" crash at the end. I typically stop playing and wait for the song to pick up again. This is just a bad message all around that is being sent by this and really sucks.

I thought that I would be more interested in playing the drums, but I'm not. I like the guitar better since the drums are riddled with flaws. There are also several songs in expert mode that are missing notes from the real song. I'm not talking about Rush or Who songs, I'm talking about basic 4 on the floor songs with missing hi hat notes, bass drums notes etc.

The drums in this game are about a 6 out of 10, because of many minor flaws.

Any response Harmonix on fixes?

macafied

11-26-2007, 05:02 AM

I don't totally disagree with you as i notice the timing issues in the fill sections as well. But 99% of the people playing this game are not drummers. I give the drums in this game minimum of 8 out of 10. I think they did a fantastic job representing the drums.

Again i'm not saying there is nothing wrong, i'm simply pointing out the opposite end of the spectrum here.

Bakkster

11-26-2007, 05:13 AM

I am a drummer of 24 years and find the same delay in the drum fill section ONLY. That means that the game itself is calibrated to a different timing than the fill itself. The fills are at least a half second off. On top of that, they volume on the fills are way more than the rest of the song and for that matter there are a few songs where the fill breaks are during the middle of a phrase in the verse instead of the end of the phrase like in a real song.

That probably means your audio equipment is creating a delay. Charted notes get played early to compensate (that's what lag calibration is for), but fills can't be anticipated, thus they are delayed. It's still possible that this is an input delay, but much less likely.

Any response Harmonix on fixes?

Here (http://community.rockband.com/vbforum/showthread.php?t=10861)

Nazz

11-26-2007, 05:36 AM

That probably means your audio equipment is creating a delay. Charted notes get played early to compensate (that's what lag calibration is for), but fills can't be anticipated, thus they are delayed. It's still possible that this is an input delay, but much less likely.

Here (http://community.rockband.com/vbforum/showthread.php?t=10861)

Like I said in my post, it is not a delay due to calibration. I have already calibrated the drums to fix the lag issue in regular game play, what I am talking about is the free for all sections in the songs when you hit random pads. That section is still a good half second behind. If there was a way to calibrate the fill sections of the songs, it would be a non-issue. But since the calibration only adjusts the regular play, it still does not work.

As I said before, this is not an audio/video calibration issue. It's a gameplay software issue.

As for the 8 out of 10 and most players not being drummers, that is a fair statement and perhaps I was too harsh out of frustration. I think that you are right that for those who aren't drummers this is a whole new world to them and after all it is a game. I do appreciate the fact that drumming has been recognized in a game period. There are a few minor issues that I think will be adjusted in Rock Band 2 and we'll chalk these up to first time out of the gate issues.

So with that, *drumroll* I will change my new rating to an 8 out of 10! ;) Fix the fill issues (all of them: latency, volume, phrase placement, accuracy) and we'll bump it up accordingly.

Nazz

11-26-2007, 05:38 AM

Did I mention this isn't a calibration issue? :)

I feel like if I don't say it again, people will continue to harp on the A/V calibration.

One more time,

This is not a calibration issue!

And again,

This is not a calibration issue!

Everybody!

This is not a calibration issue!

kungfumidget

11-26-2007, 05:54 AM

Bakkster

11-26-2007, 06:13 AM

Like I said in my post, it is not a delay due to calibration. I have already calibrated the drums to fix the lag issue in regular game play, what I am talking about is the free for all sections in the songs when you hit random pads. That section is still a good half second behind. If there was a way to calibrate the fill sections of the songs, it would be a non-issue. But since the calibration only adjusts the regular play, it still does not work.

As I said before, this is not an audio/video calibration issue. It's a gameplay software issue.

Let me rephrase:
The problem is likely audio delay. Lag calibration can prevent this from being a problem with charted notes, by playing those sounds early. Lag calibration (when the sound plays early, at least) does NOT affect drum fills and mic sections because those sounds can not be played early.

So again, this kind of problem is usually related to audio equipment inducing a delay to ALL audio.

That said, some have had issues with DDS causing delay, and this may also be caused by an input lag. To test this, try running the game through a CRT and computer speakers. If you have no delay, it is your entertainment center setup. If you still have delay, it is a input/processing issue. Try this and let us know the results.

Nazz

11-26-2007, 06:33 AM

Yes, it's not a calibration issue, but it is is an audio lag issue, which most people lump with calibration. If your receiver has 100ms lag, that means if the signal was going straight through (like during a drum fill), you'd hit the pad, wait 100ms, then hear the sound. You can get around this lag in the normal part of the game through calibration. The only thing you can do during a drum fill is to reduce the lag in your receiver/system. Unfortunately some of us can't do this, or don't want the reduced sound quality.

The only solution is to make the drum fills optional with a patch. We'd then need another way to activate star power, like have a cymbal hit in the song that glows when you have enough energy. If you hit the cymbal (green) and something else (like blue) at the same time, it will activate. This cymbal hit must already be part of the song and part of the recorded track to take advantage of the calibration and not lag.

Whether it's a lag issue through audio equipment or not, the fact that you can compensate for this in normal play but not in "fill mode" still makes this argument moot. On one hand they have a lagging when you play that section and on the flip side they do not allow the calibration to adjust that section as well.

Regardless the game play is not the same in fill sections versus regular drumming play. Even if we were at one to one assuming that your TV screen and your drumming peripheral were exactly in sync, the fill section is still off beat and not in sync with what is being played.

dagware

11-26-2007, 06:35 AM

Let me rephrase:
The problem is likely audio delay. Lag calibration can prevent this from being a problem with charted notes, by playing those sounds early. Lag calibration (when the sound plays early, at least) does NOT affect drum fills and mic sections because those sounds can not be played early.

Question: If this is really an issue with audio delay, then wouldn't I notice it when singing? Wouldn't I hear my voice come through the system a little late? I'll experiment tonight and see if my wife can notice a lag or not. It's possible that vocals are harder to tell, but I can always tap (or bang) on the mic. I may try headphones also, but of course they might not produce the lag.

Also, the explanation of calibration makes it sound as if the non-fill drum notes are actually produced by the software before you hit the pads. If this is true, then if you miss a beat, either the generated drum sound has to be cut off, or else you get penalized on the next beat rather than the current beat. So you should be able to tell by listening for the very first drum beat. If you don't hit a pad at all, you should hear something -- either the sound partly generated and then cut off, or completely generated and the next beat isn't played. Again, I'll check this tonight, but if anyone can experiment and see, it would help.

Dan

Nazz

11-26-2007, 06:39 AM

Question: If this is really an issue with audio delay, then wouldn't I notice it when singing? Wouldn't I hear my voice come through the system a little late? I'll experiment tonight and see if my wife can notice a lag or not. It's possible that vocals are harder to tell, but I can always tap (or bang) on the mic. I may try headphones also, but of course they might not produce the lag.

Also, the explanation of calibration makes it sound as if the non-fill drum notes are actually produced by the software before you hit the pads. If this is true, then if you miss a beat, either the generated drum sound has to be cut off, or else you get penalized on the next beat rather than the current beat. So you should be able to tell by listening for the very first drum beat. If you don't hit a pad at all, you should hear something -- either the sound partly generated and then cut off, or completely generated and the next beat isn't played. Again, I'll check this tonight, but if anyone can experiment and see, it would help.

Dan

Not sure why this isn't an issue with the guitar or vocals. I did notice that I only calibrated using the drumset. I don't know if that means it universally calibrated the system or only the drum peripheral. Perhaps it takes into account the guitar already, not sure but great question.

The drums were definitely late though, I calibrated to 55ms but anything in that range seemed to work. Without calibration, I was having to hit ahead of the beat and anticipate each note, which made it very hard to play.

Nazz

11-26-2007, 06:43 AM

The only solution is to make the drum fills optional with a patch. We'd then need another way to activate star power

I agree to a point. Why not just map out the actual drum fill in the song? I don't care to free form on my video game drumset, that is what real drums are for. I would much rather play the actual fill from the song and have the big rock ending at the end for free form note scores. In my opinion, these sections in mid song, and most of the time mid phrase, are useless to game play and encourage a lot of non-sense banging. Just like if you had a section in the middle for the guitar to just strum a bunch of random notes. Doesn't make sense.

Bakkster

11-26-2007, 06:54 AM

Question: If this is really an issue with audio delay, then wouldn't I notice it when singing? Wouldn't I hear my voice come through the system a little late? I'll experiment tonight and see if my wife can notice a lag or not. It's possible that vocals are harder to tell, but I can always tap (or bang) on the mic. I may try headphones also, but of course they might not produce the lag.

The drums will be easier to notice this on because it is more percussive (obviously). Try tapping on the mic and listen carefully for lag. Also try headphones with both mic and drums. These two tests should narrow down whether you have an audio lag or an input/processing lag.

Also, the explanation of calibration makes it sound as if the non-fill drum notes are actually produced by the software before you hit the pads. If this is true, then if you miss a beat, either the generated drum sound has to be cut off, or else you get penalized on the next beat rather than the current beat. So you should be able to tell by listening for the very first drum beat. If you don't hit a pad at all, you should hear something -- either the sound partly generated and then cut off, or completely generated and the next beat isn't played. Again, I'll check this tonight, but if anyone can experiment and see, it would help.

That is correct. This is the way it was done since the original GH as well, and this is the way it works for all instruments.

Not sure why this isn't an issue with the guitar or vocals. I did notice that I only calibrated using the drumset. I don't know if that means it universally calibrated the system or only the drum peripheral. Perhaps it takes into account the guitar already, not sure but great question.

The drums were definitely late though, I calibrated to 55ms but anything in that range seemed to work. Without calibration, I was having to hit ahead of the beat and anticipate each note, which made it very hard to play.

Did you perform both sets of calibration? Try with another peripheral and see if you get the same results.

kungfumidget

11-26-2007, 07:32 AM

Whether it's a lag issue through audio equipment or not, the fact that you can compensate for this in normal play but not in "fill mode" still makes this argument moot. On one hand they have a lagging when you play that section and on the flip side they do not allow the calibration to adjust that section as well.

Regardless the game play is not the same in fill sections versus regular drumming play. Even if we were at one to one assuming that your TV screen and your drumming peripheral were exactly in sync, the fill section is still off beat and not in sync with what is being played.

Let's assume that everything in your system is flawless, but your receiver has a 100ms delay. During the normal game, you can set the calibration to 100ms so that Rock Band outputs the sound 100ms in advance (yes before you hit the note). Now everything is in sync. When you miss a note, the game knows immediately, but you still hear 100ms of the correct note played, because that was already sent to the speakers. It then takes a couple 100ms of correct play to get the audio back on track.

So now, what happens when you approach a drum fill. The reason we were able to get away with the above is that Rock Band knew what you should be playing, and played it early in the hopes that you'd get it right. Now, Rock Band has no idea as to what you are going to play, so it can only output things to the speakers as you hit them, which then get delayed by 100ms in your receiver. You can't possibly correct for this with any amount of calibration unless your 360/ps3 can see into the future. The only recourse is to get rid of the 100ms lag in your receiver, or stick with a predetermined drum track (drum fills optional with alternate way of activating overdrive).

Nazz

11-26-2007, 07:50 AM

So now, what happens when you approach a drum fill. The reason we were able to get away with the above is that Rock Band knew what you should be playing, and played it early in the hopes that you'd get it right. Now, Rock Band has no idea as to what you are going to play, so it can only output things to the speakers as you hit them, which then get delayed by 100ms in your receiver. You can't possibly correct for this with any amount of calibration unless your 360/ps3 can see into the future. The only recourse is to get rid of the 100ms lag in your receiver, or stick with a predetermined drum track (drum fills optional with alternate way of activating overdrive).

Now that actually makes sense. Thank you.

However, that still doesn't remedy the problem, only the explanation. Which gets back to the original point that was made as you did as well, that the drum part should just be predetermined and mapped out. I will look into the A/V issue, but really a video game shouldn't require this much work to adjust to everyones individual settings and it's unlikely that it will be fixed if the game already requires calibration. But who knows, maybe it will work for me. Here's hoping!

Bakkster

11-26-2007, 07:54 AM

Now that actually makes sense. Thank you.

However, that still doesn't remedy the problem, only the explanation. Which gets back to the original point that was made as you did as well, that the drum part should just be predetermined and mapped out. I will look into the A/V issue, but really a video game shouldn't require this much work to adjust to everyones individual settings and it's unlikely that it will be fixed if the game already requires calibration. But who knows, maybe it will work for me. Here's hoping!

It's equally reasonable to assume that a 100-200ms lag shouldn't be acceptable in a stereo receiver. ;)

Another poster found that he had stereo inputs that bypassed the digital processing that introduced the lag. Yet another found his stereo had a setting to turn off the processing. Hopefully you have the same. Call your stereo maker and ask them. Good luck!

Nazz

11-27-2007, 01:59 AM

********************** UPDATE ************************

So let me be the first to admit that I was wrong. It is in fact an issue with delay between the receiver and the game. I went home and found the V1 Direct setting on my Onkyo receiver and set the game calibration back to 0ms. The drum beats are now on target as are the fills.

In the previous pages of rambling, it wasn't until late that I realized what was confusing to me about this. For those who might read this with the same problem, here goes.

While I was able to calibrate my game initially to match my playing, I was only matching the time that I was hitting the pads with the time that the game expected me too. In other words, it expected me to hit the red notes or yellow notes at a certain time and would delay them for me based on the delay I was hearing. It wasn't until someone explained that they can do this because they already know you are going to play the red, yellow, blue, green and orange notes on the screen as you see them. What was throwing me off was the fill section in which Rock Band had no idea what I was going to hit, so it couldn't anticipate my striking of the pad with the note I wanted it to play. That is part one.

The second part is that even though I calibrated to fixed the issue of the notes I was expected to hit, I was still not getting a true sound when the game meant for it to be played. In other words, my receiver was delaying the notes for surround sound. In surround sound, the front speakers, back speakers and center channel are delayed so that they all deliver the sound to you at the same time. If the front speaker sent the sound and then the back speakers, you would hear a delay or an echo. In theory, if you are playing with a surround system you should be able to play with 0ms calibration and still hear everything the same time depending on where you are in the room, but it doesn't work like that. You need to set the receiver to send the signal immediately or "directly" so that there is no delay in the receiver sending out the sound.

I know this is a rehash of what's been said before, but unfortunately only one side has been explained which is why it was confusing to me.

I hope this helps anyone who might experience the same delays during the drum fill section.

Thank you to everyone who answered my questions, particularly kungfumidget for explaining the expected vs. improvised note interpretation. Yeah, Bakkster you're alright too. :)

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