What, you never heard of The Eagles? Why can't I switch my character's instrument?!

[SenatorIvy]

Characters should just be musicians.

I play on the 360, which is already regimented into a profile-based system by controller. Why are characters locked to an instrument at all?

SenatorIvy signs in on the drums.
Pick a character, SenatorIvy.
SenatorIvy's character is now a drummer.
Whoops, my friend wants to drum this time.
SenatorIvy signs out.
DRUMMER OPEN
SenatorIvy signs in on the guitar.
Pick a character, SenatorIvy.
SenatorIvy's character is now a guitarist.

Doesn't seem like a tough model, nor does the idea seem to violate any principles the game is based on, or require anything that I wouldn't be keeping track of by having to make multiple identical characters anyway. Career-wise the only thing not covered is what band are you playing, which would be a simple matter of asking what band you want to play as soon as you go into career mode.

If my profile is loaded on the drums, then my character is a drummer. If my profile is loaded on the guitar, then my character is a guitarist. If I want to have different characters, I'll make different characters. If I want to have one character, why should I have to RE-make that same character for all instruments, playing through enough to get the $ necessary to make them look identical? It isn't as though the instrument you play or what you wear garners any more fan response. All the money you win playing the game should be tied to your profile, not your character. This way I could circumvent the wacko "you're tied to the drums for life" bs that my character has been locked into by constructing an identical character on an alternate instrument, without having to, oh, I don't know, play through the entire game again just to get enough money to dress my paperdoll how I want it.

I don't know exactly how much space is taken up by a character in a Rock Band save, but in the theory that there is a custom guitar, a custom bass, a custom drumset, and maybe a custom mic (I don't know, I have yet to hook mine up) the level of instrument customization and any associated scorekeeping info can't be more than an additional few k worth of compressed data to store, so its not as though you're shaving the extra k off. I can make who knows how many custom art pieces, all with 24 layers each, but I can't switch instruments on the fly? That seems to lend itself to the idea that you're all listening to music by people more concerned with how they look than how they play. :v

On the topic of "getting my paperdoll how I want it," it is also frustrating that I have to remake any facepaint I create on a per-character basis. Instead of being able to quickly switch to another version of a character (like if I wanted to have something wacko like a fantasy metal getup on my normally punk chick character) I have to redo everything thanks to this crappy instrument lock. Why isn't there just a pool of available facepaint that one can copy from on the unit?

I really don't see why the leader would always need to be on the same instrument, or really why the instrument would have to be tied to the band at all? The band should be comprised of members, not of instruments. Since the game is member-centric, I don't see why it would be really important that it be locked to an instrument. Anybody who hops onto an unoccupied instrument is considered "subbing" anyway.


Since initially hooking up the game, there have been at least 2 times when it wanted me to update to continue playing. To me, this says that the code can be changed on the fly from what was pressed when the disc shipped. If this is the case, I hope that something comes of this currently jank system by which we are trapped into either remaking characters to traverse instruments, or simply having to let other people play with our characters. It's my character; why should they play with it?

You know, this entire thing could seemingly be solved with a menu option in the edit character for what instrument they play. I mean why is there an entire separate menu for rename and delete anyway. Toss it in there.

[Maggot_Brain]

Agree. Keep up da pressure!

Let's get that Rock Band usability up to where it should be!

(Love the game, by the way. Just got a few nits that need pickin')

[MajorYoshi]

I completely agree. I play drums and guitar IRL. My girlfriend plays bass and guitar IRL. Last night we started a band and she wanted to play drums to see how it went. So we play for a while and switch and then find out we have to make a *different* band altogether so we can switch instruments.

That, IMHO, is just silly and a royal PITA.

MajorYoshi

[wargunner]

It totally agree. This is the most annoying part of Rock Band. I want to play multiple instruments with the same character. Is that too much to ask?

[WhaleMenace]

Wow,

I didn't even know this was an issue, my game has yet to be played (cant wait to get off work), that really sucks! Not as unforgivable as the guitar fiasco, but still seems short sighted given the whole nature of the game.

[VixOrien]

I concur 100%! This is my least favorite aspect of the game. Everything else I love, but the lack of band edit options just kills the fun of multiplayer sometimes. I want ONE character, in ONE band, who can play anything he wants when he wants. And allow other people to sub in to ANY position. I think that would make the multiplayer absolutely stellar, especially with large groups of people or when people just want to change things up.


-Vix

[slee77]

I agree as well also you have to assign 3 new gamer cards for the other instruments to play through solo mode...meaning guess what I beat drums on expert BUT I can't then play through guitar solo mode to earn and unlock songs because it is on controller 2 or gamer card 2 which isn't my main profile on xbox live!!!!! Help me with this!!!!! PLEASE!!!I want my credit for stuff I do in game

[jmiscavish]

I thought I was the only one having these problems. I wanted my band leader to go from drummer to guitarist for a few songs. Sorry, no can do!!!

My wife wanted to go from bass to singer. We had to create an entirely new profile and character for this. This is easily the worst part of this game. Maybe it's nitpicking, but it sucks hard having to constantly sign in and out and create new people just to change instruments. Before every song, just check to see which controller I have or let me choose a new one. Come on, how next-gen is this?

Oh, and while you're at it, add solo and online BWT.

[nVizzle]

I agree. A character should be able to play all the instruments. A lot of musicians can, and do, play multiple instruments.

[wargunner]

Does anyone really see any reason why HMX would have made Rock Band the way it is? I really see no good reason to make it this way. I'm just curious as to what led them to this decision.

[jmiscavish]

I agree as well also you have to assign 3 new gamer cards for the other instruments to play through solo mode...meaning guess what I beat drums on expert BUT I can't then play through guitar solo mode to earn and unlock songs because it is on controller 2 or gamer card 2 which isn't my main profile on xbox live!!!!! Help me with this!!!!! PLEASE!!!I want my credit for stuff I do in game


I'll have to try this when I get home. Looks like I'll be walking back and forth switching out USBs on the hub whenever I'm solo and want to change instruments. That or I'm signing in and out switching from player 2 to 3 to 4 to whatever. Pain in the butt.

[85_SWB]

is it really that hard to play as someone elses character
if you cant handle it create one character for each instrument and swich them when you want to play what

[slee77]

I'll have to try this when I get home. Looks like I'll be walking back and forth switching out USBs on the hub whenever I'm solo and want to change instruments. That or I'm signing in and out switching from player 2 to 3 to 4 to whatever. Pain in the butt.

Yeah my main complaint is the functionality of this! I mean If I wanna play through solo mode through all the instruments then I should be able to to get all my unlocks for my gamer card!! WTF GUYS!

[jmiscavish]

is it really that hard to play as someone elses character
if you cant handle it create one character for each instrument and swich them when you want to play what
That would make sense except that you have to actually sign all the way out and back in with whatever instrument. It's really not as easy as you make it sound. And, yes, why would I create a character just to let someone else play with it? We should be able to switch instruments between every song if we want, plain and simple.

[metasynthie]

It probably has to do with a couple things.

First, the character models and clothing options for each of the three types of musicians (singer, drummer, guitarist) are slightly different. Most of the clothing, haircut, etc. options are the same, but there are some that are exclusive. For instance, when you're playing drummer solo career, you get T-shirts for the drum company that's sponsoring you; the other musicians can't wear this shirt. They could have gotten around this and just let any musician wear any clothes, but who knows why this isn't the case. This might be hard to patch, especially if they've totally split up the character models (which they might have for animation purposes too.)

The workaround for this, if you want to have a "multi-talented musician" is basically to make three characters on your profile, if you want them all to look the same and have the same name, you can. The downside to this is that you'll have to earn money for clothes etc. for all of them separately.

Second part: they have to store the information about a character somewhere (clothes, tattoos, how much money they've got) and they've got to store the information about a band somewhere (which gigs are unlocked, fans, stars, logo, quote). Both of these things have to be stored in someone's profile, that's how it works on Xbox (and PS3 too I think). If you make a character with your profile, you've got to log back in with the same profile to access that character, change their clothes etc. Same goes for a band, and I guess it makes sense that the information about the band goes with a profile.

But here is where it gets annoyingly messy. There's no way to transfer ownership of a band to another character, which would be one way of solving the "this character must always play in this band" problem. And for some reason, the ownership of a band is not just linked to a profile, but to a CHARACTER too. Even if you have three characters, only one of them owns the band, and that one is a drummer, singer, or musician. If your singer owns a band, no other singer will every be able to play in that band. This is what I really think should be decoupled -- they should keep the band data in the user profile, but as long as that profile is signed in, let that profile select whichever of their characters they want. There's absolutely no reason I can think of to lock the band to a character rather than a profile.

[metasynthie]

is it really that hard to play as someone elses character
if you cant handle it create one character for each instrument and swich them when you want to play what
Unfortunately this doesn't work in Band World Tour mode. You can't create multiple characters and then switch out if one of the characters you're trying to switch is the band leader. If you made a singer the band leader, then that character must always be the singer, and you always have to have someone singing. That band can never play a set with guitar, bass, and drums only.

[Bluvox]

Yeah my main complaint is the functionality of this! I mean If I wanna play through solo mode through all the instruments then I should be able to to get all my unlocks for my gamer card!! WTF GUYS!

I'm doing the solo career for drums and guitar at the same time right now.. I just have 2 characters and I sign into XBL on the instrument that I'm going to solo play.

Don't see what the issue is.

[anubis311]

Agree 100%.

Fix this! For a game touted as the "best party game of all time" it doesn't allow for any hotseat rotation of parts. Its even a real p.i.t.a. just to switch between quick plays. We found ourselves last night many time unplugging all the controls and rebooting the console to start fresh and get signed in properly when we wanted to trade instruments.

Fix it. The stiffness of the player profiles and locked in instruments is a big pain that I'm really surprised none of the many sites that previewed it thought to mention in the minus column.

[Loozinit]

they said since day one this title was designed for the band experience and online, so the drawback of solo playing or all members being under the same roof is def a drawback and a pain in the arse for sure, but not THAT big of a deal IMO

[metasynthie]

I'm doing the solo career for drums and guitar at the same time right now.. I just have 2 characters and I sign into XBL on the instrument that I'm going to solo play.

Don't see what the issue is.

Because you're only playing on solo career. As anubis311 points out, this is a huge pain in the ass when you're playing with a group of people, or even two people. You can't keep your character and switch instruments without basically rebooting all over. And you can't swap one of the band members out at all, they (and their instrument) are fixed. If the core experience is supposed to be about playing as a band with other people... it's a major flaw unless we're expected to always play exactly the same instrument.

[Supergeek]

This is my biggest nit to pick about Rock Band. My wife and I play together, and we'd like to be able to swap instruments and play what we want, and progress our characters. We can't do that. We have to continuously go back to the main menu and swap characters, or even swap BANDS. It's a pain in the rear end.

[MJDoja]

uhh.. well.. it is a video game.
who cares about authenticity. (true pros rarely play more than one core instrument great, guitar player going to play drums? maybe if hes super awesome.. what about an average pro whos just into guitar/drums on their own?)

it is extremely tough to physically swap controllers with the person next to you if you REALLY wanna play another instrument, it really does matter if your on screen character is playing the instrument that youre playing.

cuz really, 4 people cant just rotate on the other instruments.. why would you expect such a thing harmonix?

[BathTub]

Yeah this is certainly one of the strange decisions made, to not allow peoples rockers to change instruments.

[SoKGiX]

Yeah this is certainly one of the strange decisions made, to not allow peoples rockers to change instruments.

yup, very strange why they would do this...

[mltdwn]

Um ok question... And I do agree I hope they change this.. However, to use the example of the drummer/guitar player and his girlfriend who plays bass/guitar. When she wants to play drums why not just have her sit down and play drums and you stand up and play guitar? Do you really "need" to be logged into your personal guitar playing character to enjoy the game? I know this is how most of the guys at the various mags did it when they had their groups, they just played what they wanted and didn't bother logging out and then back in with their "guitar player/singer/drummer/whatever". It's also how my wife and I play.

[Progged]

Do you really "need" to be logged into your personal guitar playing character to enjoy the game? I know this is how most of the guys at the various mags did it when they had their groups, they just played what they wanted and didn't bother logging out and then back in with their "guitar player/singer/drummer/whatever". It's also how my wife and I play.

No, but it seems shortsighted that this wasn't considered.

[wonderflex]

Um ok question... And I do agree I hope they change this.. However, to use the example of the drummer/guitar player and his girlfriend who plays bass/guitar. When she wants to play drums why not just have her sit down and play drums and you stand up and play guitar? Do you really "need" to be logged into your personal guitar playing character to enjoy the game? I know this is how most of the guys at the various mags did it when they had their groups, they just played what they wanted and didn't bother logging out and then back in with their "guitar player/singer/drummer/whatever". It's also how my wife and I play.

The biggest problem with your rotational theory is that some of us care about our stats, which we will be able to link to our profiles in the future. Also, when you start looking at creating a band online you will have to create a different band in order to switch instruments. The guy in New York can't readily switch his bandmate in Seattle.

At home, in order to keep stats accurate, if you want to play with four people (which you can't do anyway if you are like me and have a PS3), then you would need 16 bands to allow for everybody to get to play the instrument of their choosing.

[Supergeek]

Um ok question... And I do agree I hope they change this.. However, to use the example of the drummer/guitar player and his girlfriend who plays bass/guitar. When she wants to play drums why not just have her sit down and play drums and you stand up and play guitar? Do you really "need" to be logged into your personal guitar playing character to enjoy the game? I know this is how most of the guys at the various mags did it when they had their groups, they just played what they wanted and didn't bother logging out and then back in with their "guitar player/singer/drummer/whatever". It's also how my wife and I play.

Ok, you've got 3 basic instruments: Microphone, Guitar, Drums.

You create a band. Ok, you have to pick an instrument for the leader.

What if neither of you wants to play that instrument for a particular song?

[mltdwn]

The biggest problem with your rotational theory is that some of us care about our stats, which we will be able to link to our profiles in the future. Also, when you start looking at creating a band online you will have to create a different band in order to switch instruments. The guy in New York can't readily switch his bandmate in Seattle.

At home, in order to keep stats accurate, if you want to play with four people (which you can't do anyway if you are like me and have a PS3), then you would need 16 bands to allow for everybody to get to play the instrument of their choosing.

Actually you only need 4 bands for everyone to get to play the instrument of their choosing, and if you do it right you can actually get by with 2-3. Like I said I hope they change it, personally I would love for them to change it.

[Wingman709]

Not only is it lame that you can't use a single character to play all the instruments, I have had a TON of issues with headsets not working when plugged in. If I want to change instruments, I have to shut down the xbox, then boot back up into the game to get the instrument to work.

Now I thought this may be an issue with just my box, but a friend of mine has the exact same issue. Really annoying.

But the game rocks. Best music based game to date. Awesome job guys. I got it for the drums but really enjoy the vocal part of this game as well. It rules.

[Pinstrype24]

I have no problems at all with the game technically, but like most i had to create a character for each instrument...which isn't so bad...except the fact they can't be named the same thing...so i had to use initials and full specials and abbreviations etc. for each

am i just missing something? i don't think so cause i tried to rename them and it says that name is taken

i have the ps3 version

if u have to have them linked to an instrument...then atleast let them be named the same please:(

[walnutthewise]

If one has a band, you can merely switch instruments and disregard that the character you are playing is not the one you created. After all, it is about playing the instrument.

However, it would be much easier to have your character as an entity that is free from connection to band or instrument. Your custom character should be able to play in any band, or play any instrument at whatever time.

I love this game, but the interfaces are very cumbersome. Especially signing in and out of your gamertag everytime you want to change instruments.

[SenatorIvy]

Does anyone really see any reason why HMX would have made Rock Band the way it is? I really see no good reason to make it this way. I'm just curious as to what led them to this decision.

I don't see any reason why it was done that way either; it seems to be the opposite mechanic of most every other create-a-character type of scheme. The characters are always pool-oriented and slot-switchable.

I could sort of understand if it made any immediate sense to lock a character to an instrument, and a band to a character, in-game-variablewise, but really, even the loading screens talk of bands switching lineups, and surely there are many people who are aware of the many musicians that switch instruments.

It seems as though they just thought of the way it would work immediately, and when it proved sufficient for the overall scheme, nobody said "can we make this even better?" or "is there a different way to do this thats easier for everybody?"


is it really that hard to play as someone elses character
if you cant handle it create one character for each instrument and swich them when you want to play what

Despite that I believe I described exactly how irritating it is to make a new character for each instrument (and then play through the whole game each time, just to get enough money to make them look the same, since it would apparently be a cardinal sin to have money be profile-based instead of character based) It's only as hard as it is for you status-quo loving types to keep your trap shut when someone has a suggestion to improve something. When you get to The Who on here, make sure not to pay attention to the lyrical content, so as to continue thinking everything you are handed is fine.

I can't be the only one that notices every time things like this come up, there is someone who questions why things aren't just fine how they are? As though they can't possibly see things from anybody else's perspective, and accommodating a suggestion for people like the rest of us in here that see the issue would just ruin it for them? If it's fine either way for you types, just let the people who AREN'T fine with it address the issue. It's never the squeaky wheel that gets the oil; it's always the tallest head that gets cut.

Sigh.


It probably has to do with a couple things.

Everything you said was something I said in the original post. :confused:


they said since day one this title was designed for the band experience and online, so the drawback of solo playing or all members being under the same roof is def a drawback and a pain in the arse for sure, but not THAT big of a deal IMO

It certainly has "the band experience;" I'm ready to quit over some stupid crap that could be easily sorted out. I'm hoping it eventually gets sorted out, so I don't have The Band experience and end up like Richard Manuel.

It can't be the greatest party game AND have "the band experience" in this strict sense. You just can't go both ways on it. If they want people to shell out $200 for it, you should be able to rotate out more than 4 people who've invested their own free time and extra just to play.

This is like racing games; you buy one and you want to play it with your friends, but because some dip decided that unlocking things was fun, you put the game in and you've got 3 tracks and 2 cars to play with. Then some guy has to waste his whole weekend playing through the game to unlock everything just so there's more for him and his friends to do, but by that time not only has the fancy passed everyone, but nobody wants to play that guy because he's spent all his weekend playing the thing and he's "too good" now.


Do you really "need" to be logged into your personal guitar playing character to enjoy the game? I know this is how most of the guys at the various mags did it when they had their groups, they just played what they wanted and didn't bother logging out and then back in with their "guitar player/singer/drummer/whatever". It's also how my wife and I play.

This is a classic case of "you can't have it both ways." You can't act like create-a-character is a "great feature" or a "cool thing" or whatever it is that makes people add it to games these days without thinking people will want to use the thing THEY made for THEMSELVES. If there's no point in being possessive, I'd like you to do me a favor and when you're done here, kindly hop over to Namco's official forums and tell them to go back in time and take that custom-character crap out of SoulCalibur, before they ruined it with 3.

If I make a custom guy, I don't want other people using it, period.



Not only is it lame that you can't use a single character to play all the instruments, I have had a TON of issues with headsets not working when plugged in. If I want to change instruments, I have to shut down the xbox, then boot back up into the game to get the instrument to work.

Now I thought this may be an issue with just my box, but a friend of mine has the exact same issue. Really annoying.

But the game rocks. Best music based game to date. Awesome job guys. I got it for the drums but really enjoy the vocal part of this game as well. It rules.

Yeah, I've had to reset the machine several times, because unplugging an instrument someone is signed into and plugging a new one in makes it think the controller's unplugged still (likely just a side effect of how the 360 handles connect/disconnect of HID.)


If one has a band, you can merely switch instruments and disregard that the character you are playing is not the one you created. After all, it is about playing the instrument.

However, it would be much easier to have your character as an entity that is free from connection to band or instrument. Your custom character should be able to play in any band, or play any instrument at whatever time.

I love this game, but the interfaces are very cumbersome. Especially signing in and out of your gamertag everytime you want to change instruments.

So let me get this straight, you advise us to do what you later go on to admit is frustrating for yourself as well, and you think that it would be good if things were like we who complained were outlining?

It is hard to understand the position when something that is incredibly irritating to me, and appears as though is the result of a design oversight is described as "merely" doing something.

Make the closet and $ profile-based instead of character based and I will make 4 characters, but there is no way I'm playing through the solo mode with every instrument just so I can get something I already unlocked, and there's no way I'm spending another half hour drawing a custom facepaint skull just because someone didn't think "copy" or "share" was a good function to have on such things.

I don't see it as "replay value" or "a feature, not a bug." Replay value is when they put songs in I like. Replay value is when they continue to offer songs for download that I don't mind paying for. Replay value is making it worthwhile to unlock things, and not a needless chore. Forcing people to replay through things, or play in a fashion they don't find enjoyable just to get to a place where all can play comfortably is not replay value, it is poor planning.

Switching the joystick to the other hand does not a "new game" make; it then becomes the same old game with a new frustration. Back in the old days, when you wouldn't know if a new version of a cartridge came out that fixed a problem, asking something like this would be a big deal that would be reserved for "whoops, guess we'll fix that in Rock Band 2!" but these days, when I can't even turn on the console without games calling home and reporting how much I'm playing and when, (so they can properly align it with in-game advertising; you know, so games get cheape- oh wait, they're more expensive these days!) asking something like this is not nearly as problematic as it once was, so part-and-parcel to that update process should come live fixes like these.

They complain about the rising costs of game development these days, but to me it seems like the turnaround on something like this would be astronomical; they've basically fell into a Tony Hawk scenario, where a fairly simple mechanic is applied ad infinitum. I'll wager it's worth the time to address issues like these. PC's been doing it for years. There's no reason why consoles can't do the same thing.

[wonderflex]

Actually you only need 4 bands for everyone to get to play the instrument of their choosing, and if you do it right you can actually get by with 2-3. Like I said I hope they change it, personally I would love for them to change it.

No, it's 16.

If just person A wants to change to any instrument of their choosing it would require 4 bands.

Person A – Guitar
Person B – Bass
Person C – Drum
Person D – Vocal

Person A – Bass
Person B – Guitar
Person C – Drum
Person D – Vocal

Person A – Drum
Person B – Bass
Person C – Guitar
Person D – Vocal

Person A – Vocal
Person B- Bass
Person C – Drum
Person D – Guitar

If you want to be able to have each person individually select their instruments then it would take 16 permutations.

Just with this one example and the 4 above you have band number 5:

Person A wants Vocals
Person B wants Drums
Person C wants Guitar
Person D wants Bass

See, each player must have 4 characters, and each band must be arranged to allow for you to pick exactly what instrument each person wants.

[jmiscavish]

Yeah, that's pretty much it. It's not a huge deal and it doesn't break the game. But it's about the most annoying this game could get.

I just found out that the drummer I used as a band leader is also locked into the drums in single player mode. I had to create yet another character to do my vocal solo tour. Between my wife and I, we have 6 characters created. WTF??? 3 profiles and 6 characters just to play with 2 people is absurd.

[Supergeek]

Harmonix failed to realize that people would want to play more than one instrument, and yet still want to retain the identity with the avatar they created.

I just don't see how that many people involved in this game, ostensibly even playing it in their spare time, would fail to realize these very basic ideas. I am disappointed. The irritation of switching characters and bands gives every play session a tinge of frustration, and takes the shine off of what could have been an amazing party game.

It is still a fantastic game, but it does not promote the social aspect like it could have.

[BathTub]

Harmonix failed to realize that people would want to play more than one instrument, and yet still want to retain the identity with the avatar they created.

Exactly, it's really that simple.

[Loozinit]

It certainly has "the band experience;" I'm ready to quit over some stupid crap that could be easily sorted out. I'm hoping it eventually gets sorted out, so I don't have The Band experience and end up like Richard Manuel.

It can't be the greatest party game AND have "the band experience" in this strict sense. You just can't go both ways on it. If they want people to shell out $200 for it, you should be able to rotate out more than 4 people who've invested their own free time and extra just to play.

This is like racing games; you buy one and you want to play it with your friends, but because some dip decided that unlocking things was fun, you put the game in and you've got 3 tracks and 2 cars to play with. Then some guy has to waste his whole weekend playing through the game to unlock everything just so there's more for him and his friends to do, but by that time not only has the fancy passed everyone, but nobody wants to play that guy because he's spent all his weekend playing the thing and he's "too good" now.

I def see your point from a "party" "social" aspect of gameplay it would be infuriating to sign in/out for people w/gamertags.
as far as unlocking the game, if you don't want the challenge, I guess the only salvation is the cheat codes that will surely be on the way to unlock everything.
I personally love the challenge of working through the game, but the developers def don't take ALL gamers into acct when designing, and at $170 a pop it shouldn't have these little (easily fixed IMO) "issues"

just keep voicing your opinion and hopefully changes will be made without the need for a rock band 2 just yet (a patch possibly) :D

[EricExecution]

Harmonix should really fix this. This post is brilliant. Paricuarly the title. Haha.

[TheSteveyD]

I agree with the OP on this topic. The worst part about it is that it is just completely unintuitive. When I first got going with some friends we started up a band, played a bunch of songs on whatever instrument we had then wanted to swap. It seemed like a no brainer at the time, just log out on the current instrument, log back in on your new one and pick your previous character. We must have spent 15 to 20 minutes trying to figure out what we were doing wrong that wasn't letting us play our characters till we realized that it was actually the way the game is set up. I don't necessarily mind a character maybe being locked to just one band for the multiplayer tour, but at least let me swap instruments and use him for any solo and quick play games I might do. While I do appreciate the opportunity to make lots of cool characters, I shouldn't be forced into doing this just because I want to try a different part of the game. It really should be like the Miis on Wii. You make a bunch then use them for whatever and where ever you want.

[fotty]

I agree.

Honestly I could care less about the characters in the band, what they look like, or who is actually playing as them. All I care about is being able to switch instruments without issue.

Last night when me and 3 friends set everything up, we made a band, played through about 1/4 of the world tour mode, and had a great time.

Today my girlfriend wanted to try things out, so i loaded up the band I had made last night and selected drums (band leader) and she did vocals. After one song I said, ok ill do guitar, you can keep singing. However since the drummer is the band leader, we can not use this band with 2 people, one on guitar, and one on vocals.

There doesn't seem to be any option to change who the band leader is.

At least the possibility of a patch exists via XBL (or your consoles online service).

It is odd no one from harmonix has posted any sort of response to this thread.

[gamecube397]

this is really bad for achievement junkies too. and why cant they just have one certain character be the leader of the band and have that guy tagged to an account. then everyone has their certain character tied to their different account and we all rotate around in that fashion.

EDIT: maybe harmonix thought we would be good at only one instrument and completely suck at the rest?

[SenatorIvy]

It is odd no one from harmonix has posted any sort of response to this thread.

Why, have they been pretty active in replying to issues such as this?

[jmiscavish]

Why do bands need leaders at all? Eric Clapton has played guitar for like 5 different bands. This seems to be a very restricting and frustrating way to play the game. Again, once the leader is chosen with a particular instrument, it is stuck and not only can that leader never change instruments, but no other person can ever play that instrument in that band. Do I really need to have 3 different characters each in 3 different bands just to be able to play on BWT?

[walnutthewise]

Mods, I believe this thread should be stickied, it is a very important issue.

[shadus]

Characters should just be musicians....<SNIP>....Toss it in there.

/signed

I fully agree, band leader if no other person, should not be limited to single instrument.

[SenatorIvy]

Why do bands need leaders at all?

I assume calling them band leaders is really just a coy way of hiding "where should we save this band file to?" When I think of leaders of bands, I think of lead singers; I put a lot of emphasis on lyrical content as well as music, so the voice of the band is the direction to me. Considering the loading screens talk about the shifting roster of Faith No More, you'd think they'd be more open to shifting themselves. :v

As far as I can tell, the concept of a "band" is solely for leaderboard status, online-wise. Locally it is just a progression marker for a game mode. There's no reason a band file couldn't be saved to the profile of everyone who is in the band, excepting that if I go home and play on my copy of the band file, and my friend plays on his copy of the band file, suddenly we have two different progressions going. It would appear as though this issue exists no matter what scheme is used, however, as nothing prevents loading from a centralized perspective anyway. Either way it doesn't matter, because whatever is loaded is played. Who cares if someone loads a progress that is behind or ahead? Clearly replaying the game is something everyone wants.

The idea of subbing and rosters and all of that is really just a side note method of having to manage multiple characters due to instrument locks. If there were multiple bands in the same way there should be multiple characters, there would be no issue of signons and subbing; who cares if my drummer is "in the band" or "subbing?" as far as I can tell, if they're in the band, or they're subbing, they still get the $/prizes when the band does well, and the band still loses out on things when they mess up. It should just be a matter of "are you playing RIGHT NOW? Well then you're "in the band." It's not as though this is an accurate simulation of garageband life or something, so the whole "I'm managing a band, duuude!" angle is really just a lost one for the faults it introduces.

The root of the fun is having your own little custom avatar, and rocking out with your friends, not slaving away with the back and forth of menus and management. I understand everyone needing a profile on the system; that's just the 360. I don't understand each profile needing individual characters for each instrument. I mean, back in the days of Virtual Pro Wrestling 2, did the people who thought of this system spend their time making amusing wrestlers, or did they waste their time making sure their rosters were up-to-date and accurate to the current stables? Create-a-whatever modes are about personality, not management. Rock Band's mode is great until you hit these few hitches here.

[jmiscavish]

exactly

What's worse is this bleeds over into solo tour - I need three different avatars to do mike, drums, and lead guitar. That's really annoying, especially since my drummer is the leader of another band and locked forever into the drums.

[Frederf]

My first party play of RB was with 3 and 4 people. Band Quickplay (didn't have the want to go into the BWT mode).

There was a lot of good time and a high desire to rotate instruments. A LOT of time was spent going through the menu's which not only take a lot of time and figuring out, but are physically pretty slow making changes rather laborious. When you get 4 people together usually at least 1 is not going to know heads or tails about video games (usually someone's GF singing) so the concept of profiles, characters, leaders, controllers all following some odd and often arbitrarily strict dependency and link relationship is going to seem like witchcraft more than a good time.

Also I have to note that a lot of times you'd press "A" 5 times to select your selections but you'd undo that same number of menu screens with 3 "B" button presses. It makes a number of times going backward trying to change the difficulty settings only to find yourself at the main menu without ever being prompted because they are entirely skipped on the backward menu process.

Also back will often back all 4 players out of a screen when you really wanted to undo your individual option. Oops, sorry guys I wanted to change from Medium to Hard after selecting it, I thought B would just affect me.

Now 4 profiles and everyone has enough characters to cover whatever they want to play, takes a fair bit of setup time admittedly,but once that happens I think this'll be smoother. I haven't investigated how difficult or annoying changing stuff around will be once we get set up that way.


Playing through on BWT where 3 people play Drums, Singer, Guitar; Singer, Bass, Guitar; Drums, Singer, Bass; Drums, Guitar, Bass is simply out. And it's even worse with 2 people. It would be really nice to simply HAVE a band and have the band's progress be completely untied to characters to allow a reasonable level of flexibility.


Of course there is another way which can still have a band leader be a specific character: Say John Doe is the drummer and he's the band leader. You want to play with 2 human players in that band, but neither wants to play drums. Oh no! Rock Band can't handle it, but wait... What if you could have John Doe still play the drums but let an AI play so that the other human players would be free to do whatever they like. Why does a character (incl. leader) have to be played by a human being?!?!

2 players playing through BWT should be able to say "Hey I want my Charcter Mr. X to be the AI singer." I was pretty certain (interviews) that the 4 members of the band could be made just as you like it even if there's only 2 human players. You could create some characters, have them join the band and there they are. Am I wrong?

And why can't my friend use my singer character while I'm playing guitar? I don't care if it progresses points or whatever on that character, he should still have free access to all the visages of all the players. Don't want someone using your character? PUNCH HIM IN THE FACE. You're only 5 feet away, that's the kind of thing that should be left up to people, not code.

[Supergeek]

exactly

What's worse is this bleeds over into solo tour - I need three different avatars to do mike, drums, and lead guitar. That's really annoying, especially since my drummer is the leader of another band and locked forever into the drums.
Excellent point. I would have liked to be able to say my avatar is a master of all instruments, and able to explore different career paths, not being stuck on one. In the world of Rock Band, Phil Collins would be forever stuck on drums.

[exray]

Anyone remember NFL Blitz?

4 player split screen and you enter your initials and a password and voila, the stats for all 4 players pop up on the screen and are tracked through-out each game and saved.

That game came out like 10 years ago and it's tracking system is 500 times better than RB. Granted there was no visual element to the stats or tracking of outfits and whatnot but come on...

And for those who say 'who cares what X looks like on the screen' well, when I opened up the RB box, popped it in with my friends, made a band and created characters and whatnot... the first show they do the intro screen with a close-up of each band member and their name. It was SO cool to see our names up there! Just seems to add to the fun factor.

[ForTheSteel]

i completely agree with what the origional poster said. this really is a dumb problem that should be fixed.

hmx should make this (and ps3 les paul compatibility) top priority over the next few weeks. even higher than downloadable songs.

[bumbousdude25]

Well, remember, we have a (possible) BWT online patch on the way, so maybe a patch for this issue is in the works as well?

[rebelace]

I thought I was the only one having these problems. I wanted my band leader to go from drummer to guitarist for a few songs. Sorry, no can do!!!


Ya I just spent 30mins trying to figure out how to do that because my leg was tired and wanted to play guitar sat there trying all kinda ways and reading the manual then it hit me that they must have over looked this and i got kinda upset. This game is amazing its just a couple small things like this that are bothering me.

[ibender]

Your in-game "character" should be able to switch instruments. It happens all the time in real bands. Have you ever seen Arcade Fire?

[ibender]

No, it's 16.


no, it's 4 factorial (4*3*2*1 = 24)

[JuliusMode]

I don't have a lot to add other than what's already been said here, but I just registered soley so I could agree with this post. Just in case Harmonix is counting heads: me too. I realize this might not be patchable, but if it isn't, it should be at the top of the to-do list for Rock Band 2. Having characters locked to instruments slows menu navigation down to the point where players will be passing instruments off to each other without bothering to switch characters, and that defeats a LOT of the point of having custom characters to begin with, IMO.

[jmiscavish]

I don't have a lot to add other than what's already been said here, but I just registered soley so I could agree with this post. Just in case Harmonix is counting heads: me too. I realize this might not be patchable, but if it isn't, it should be at the top of the to-do list for Rock Band 2. Having characters locked to instruments slows menu navigation down to the point where players will be passing instruments off to each other without bothering to switch characters, and that defeats a LOT of the point of having custom characters to begin with, IMO.
It's patchable. If they can add an entire online BWT and rainbow 6 can add an entire co-op multiplayer, they can surely let us SWITCH INSTRUMENTS!!!

[LeShrimp]

I love the folks who defend this kind of thing.

seriously, guys. what's wrong with options? 'Just get up and switch instruments it doesn't matter whats on the screen' of course it doesn't, but how about we have the CHOICE. If the option were available, BOTH ways would be viable. We could use our own characters, OR just change instruments.

it's a really stupid argument.

'We could easily be able to choose between two things, or restrict ourselves to one! I AM GOING TO CHOOSE WE STICK TO ONE. I HATE PEOPLE WHO WANT THINGS DIFFERENTLY THAN ME, even though I could just stick to my way, myself, and let everyone else choose their way on their own! GRR.'

[libradude81]

uhh.. well.. it is a video game.
who cares about authenticity. (true pros rarely play more than one core instrument great, guitar player going to play drums? maybe if hes super awesome.. what about an average pro whos just into guitar/drums on their own?)

it is extremely tough to physically swap controllers with the person next to you if you REALLY wanna play another instrument, it really does matter if your on screen character is playing the instrument that youre playing.

cuz really, 4 people cant just rotate on the other instruments.. why would you expect such a thing harmonix?

I totally disagree with the OP. Most musicians play only one instrument rather than be a "jack of all trades, master at none" Someone mentioned that Eric Clapton played guitar in 5 bands, but he's never played Saxophone or Piano for anybody ya know?

Just know to pick a band leader for whatever instrument is most popular with your group / your favorite. I'll be happy to be going through the career several times to unlock everything. If that's too much for you than don't do it?

[Credge]

I totally disagree with the OP. Most musicians play only one instrument rather than be a "jack of all trades, master at none"

Pretty wrong on this one. Many guitarists know how to play guitar and sing at the same time. I know how to play three different instruments, although I play two rather poorly I could easily pass on keyboards or bass for any song any of my bands have played due to rudimentary knowledge of music theory.

Most professional musicians know how to play many instruments, they simply choose not to while playing live. People like...

Trent Reznor
Zakk Wylde
Ben Folds
Paul McCartney
Dave Grohl
John Paul Johns

... I could make a list of hundreds, I'm sure.

[libradude81]

Pretty wrong on this one. Many guitarists know how to play guitar and sing at the same time. I know how to play three different instruments, although I play two rather poorly I could easily pass on keyboards or bass for any song any of my bands have played due to rudimentary knowledge of music theory.

Most professional musicians know how to play many instruments, they simply choose not to while playing live. People like...

Trent Reznor
Zakk Wylde
Ben Folds
Paul McCartney
Dave Grohl
John Paul Johns

... I could make a list of hundreds, I'm sure.

Maybe we're just from different parts of the country but to me, playing guitar has nothing to do with being able to sing. They are different things. While of course I agree that there are alot of singer/guitarists I feel that most people have one main instrument. Mine is bass, even though I do play guitar, harmonica, keys and sing on occasion. I'd never join a band to do any of those things because I'm a bassist. That's my forte and I only want to bring the best of what I have to offer to any band that I'm playing with.

I feel that the list you provided are exceptions rather than the rule.

Robert Plant - Singer
Jimmy Page - Guitarist
Jon Bonham - Drummer
Angus Young - Guitarist
Steven Tyler - Singer
Joe Perry - Guitarist
Jonathan Davis - Singer
Steve Perry - Singer
Dimebag Darrell - Guitar
Vinnie Paul - Drummer
Pat Benetar - Singer
Flea - Bassist

Legendary musicians who only do one thing amazingly well. I will concede that some compromise is needed in the game, based off the overwhelming majority of the posts in this thread. I just wanted to state my opinion.

[Alzdaman]

Shame so many have the 360 version. PS3 I don't have to sign out of PSN and back on to change my character. I just made 4 different personas for the instruments, not sure why we're crying over spilled milk here.

If this is really destroying the entire experience for you just make the same character multiple times.

[Credge]

Maybe we're just from different parts of the country but to me, playing guitar has nothing to do with being able to sing.

That is precisely it. They are two completely different things and being able to do two different things at the same time is a very common thing. How they looked past this is beyond me. There are many 3 piece bands with the lead singer being the guitarist, bassist, or even drummer.

Further, there are tons, and I mean TONS, of people who play multiple instruments. Everybody I listed does more than just sing. They play several instruments. Zakk Wylde can play anything from the banjo to the piano. Trent Reznor, generally, records every single thing he does on his albums. Yngwie Malmsteen does the same except for the drums and some keyboard parts.

Even Led Zeppelins bassist played two instruments, the bass and the piano/synth. Incubus's guitarist does the same. Ben Fold of the Ben Folds five plays piano and guitar. Jonny Greenwood, lead guitarist for Radiohead plays the viola, harmonica, piano, glockenspiel, ondes xylophone, banjo and organ... and I'm sure I'm missing some. Paul McCartney can play just about every instrument under the sun. Ian Anderson of Jethro Tull played the flute AND guitar. David Bowie plays more instruments than would even be considered in any rhythm game. Stewart Copeland, from the Police, does EVERYTHING IN ROCK BAND.

It's fairly common for both well known and well accomplished professional musicians to play more than one instrument, even those that they specialize in. There is a common link between instruments that, even simply after being around them for a while, you pick things up simply from interaction with them. Instruments are not as one sided as Rock Band, and many others, then to think. If you know your way around a guitar you know your way around any similarly structured instrument and would take, at most, a month to pick up compared to years and years of practice.

Edit: Jimmy Page also knows how to play piano... and Robert Plant fiddles with an acoustic. :)

[Supergeek]

I totally disagree with the OP. Most musicians play only one instrument rather than be a "jack of all trades, master at none" Someone mentioned that Eric Clapton played guitar in 5 bands, but he's never played Saxophone or Piano for anybody ya know?

What an ironic choice for an example. Eric Clapton sings also.

But the point is, this gameplay style that Harmonix has chosen is very frustrating and irritating to many people; I would bet $1000 that it irritates the vast majority of players that do BWT. It was a bad decision.

[LeShrimp]

Shame so many have the 360 version. PS3 I don't have to sign out of PSN and back on to change my character. I just made 4 different personas for the instruments, not sure why we're crying over spilled milk here.

If this is really destroying the entire experience for you just make the same character multiple times.


I spent roughly three hours meticulously moving, scaling, rotating, coloring and skewing hundreds of solid shapes to create gorgeous custom tattoos on my guitarist, who, at the time, i thought was going to be my *character*. not my *can only play the damned guitar-guy*.


Don't you tell me to 'just make the same character multiple times'

[jmiscavish]

Here's the deal. The game is fun, loads of fun. No, it's not that big of a deal for my wife and I to swap places to switch instruments.

But why should I have to? Why do I need 3 different characters? I remember my buddy and I used to just jump on a game and play. Now, my wife and I need a bunch of different profiles just to play BWT. It's not a huge deal, and I'll certainly get over it, I just wonder how they didn't think of this before.

[Endaro]

I completely agree with the OP and the others who have posted here. I as well signed up to this forum just to say this.

Please Please Please do something about this Harmonix. At the very least have someone post about it, either why you can't change it or that you're working on it as soon as you can, atleast so we know we're not being ignored. It is seriously impacting the fun of the game, which in the end is what it is all about. An update to change this situation would be greatly appreciated!

[crivit]

Somewhere Rook is quitely laughing to himself..........

Anyway, this was discussed here before the game came out and I got the distinct impression then that it was a design decision that's not going to change. I would love to be able to have one character for everything, and/or be able to switch band leaders. I really hope it gets changed, but I don't expect it will.

For the poster complaining about having to use different profiles for the solo characters, you don't. I have all my solo characters on one gamertag. You can get your achievements for all the characters if you create them all on the same GT.

As far as the number of bands for 4 ppl playing all different instruments, you could do it with 3 different bands, not 16 or 24. Remeber the guitar/bass are interchangable and everyone except the leader can be switched out. Everyone would have to have 3 different characters though.

Band 1

Leader Player A on Guitar/Bass
Players B,C,and D sub in with whatever intruments they want to play.

Band 2

Player B leader on G/B
Players A,C,and D sub in and out

Band 3

Player C as Leader on G/B
Players A,B, and D sub in and out.

Player D never has to/gets to be the leader, but it opens up all 4 instrument possibilities to all 4 players with only 3 bands.

[MJDoja]

Maybe we're just from different parts of the country but to me, playing guitar has nothing to do with being able to sing. They are different things. While of course I agree that there are alot of singer/guitarists I feel that most people have one main instrument. Mine is bass, even though I do play guitar, harmonica, keys and sing on occasion. I'd never join a band to do any of those things because I'm a bassist. That's my forte and I only want to bring the best of what I have to offer to any band that I'm playing with.

I feel that the list you provided are exceptions rather than the rule.

Robert Plant - Singer
Jimmy Page - Guitarist
Jon Bonham - Drummer
Angus Young - Guitarist
Steven Tyler - Singer
Joe Perry - Guitarist
Jonathan Davis - Singer
Steve Perry - Singer
Dimebag Darrell - Guitar
Vinnie Paul - Drummer
Pat Benetar - Singer
Flea - Bassist

Legendary musicians who only do one thing amazingly well. I will concede that some compromise is needed in the game, based off the overwhelming majority of the posts in this thread. I just wanted to state my opinion.


a rare glimpse of logic in the land of whiners and "gimme what i want now"s

exactly my point and exactly what harmonix was intending with this.

dave grohl is an awesome musician period.. if you get rockin on drums/vox (at the same time) and guitar/vox.. then you are awesome at rock band.

[Lazerus101]

Hope the fix this pretty obvious oversight soon. At least by the time the UK version ships.

[SenatorIvy]

I love the folks who defend this kind of thing.

seriously, guys. what's wrong with options? 'Just get up and switch instruments it doesn't matter whats on the screen' of course it doesn't, but how about we have the CHOICE. If the option were available, BOTH ways would be viable. We could use our own characters, OR just change instruments.

it's a really stupid argument.

'We could easily be able to choose between two things, or restrict ourselves to one! I AM GOING TO CHOOSE WE STICK TO ONE. I HATE PEOPLE WHO WANT THINGS DIFFERENTLY THAN ME, even though I could just stick to my way, myself, and let everyone else choose their way on their own! GRR.'

Yeah no kidding. It's defended as some stab at realism, because apparently its important to represent what people are calling the "vast majority" of musicians, and their lack of ability to do more than one thing. I suppose this is why the "suggest a setlist" forum is full of crap suggestions like "we need blink182!" Might as well say "could you make a Ramones pack? I would love to play the same song over and over." The faster it is realized that this game is not a "band simulator", but a "mess around party game," the better off it will be. Lets not even get into the idea of "disable singer scoring" yet. Hooboy.


I totally disagree with the OP. Most musicians play only one instrument rather than be a "jack of all trades, master at none" Someone mentioned that Eric Clapton played guitar in 5 bands, but he's never played Saxophone or Piano for anybody ya know?

Clapton plays piano, you yutz. Who cares what most musicians play either way; we're talking about characters in a game and players on said characters. Why are people acting like this thing is a band simulator? It's just some mega-multiplayer Guitar Hero, and anything past that mechanic is a needless addition that seems to have added more frustration than individuality. Rock Band is a great game, but that doesn't mean there aren't faults.

I went to a meeting at my office the other day; the flyer that went around for it said "come tell us what we're doing right!" Yeah I didn't do that. I'm not there to tell people what they're doing right, because they know what they're doing right. Especially in the land where it seems many people are happy with whatever is given to them, regardless, pointing out what's being "done right" has absolutely no inherent tie to finding out what is being done wrong, and you can't address what should change if you don't point it out. For the dense, the point of that seemingly sidelong anecdote was that I really like this game, and would like the kinks ironed out (Captain America calling :v) to make it even better. Yeah, comparisons to GH are obvious, and while I'm sure a lot of people will act like that's some sin, I've noticed that the people who come into this thread and disagree with the direction most of us are saying in here have provided nothing but vague attachments to how "real musicians usually play one instrument" and hearsay about how "I remember when they talked about design a year ago, this issue came up, and this method stuck so thats how it is." Yeah? Well if what we have is "how it is" no matter what, why is there even a forum for such suggestions/issues? I mean, I'm sure it's great for gaming history that there were those of you that came to this forum and signed up before the game even came out, but for people like me, the game is just eventually going to happen; we don't register to show support beforehand, because the odds of it tanking are slim to nil on a high profile thing like this. We come here later to try and make ourselves heard, since those early-adopters are really just there to be ecstatic over being somewhere.

I think of it like the movie Mulholland Drive. Many years ago when said movie came out, one of my friends went to see it and came back to tell me it was "great!" and that "I really think you'd like it!" When I asked what it was about, you know what he said? "I don't know. I have no clue what it was about, but I think you would, and you'd really like it." WHAT? Basically what he was telling me was that he sat there for 2 hours watching a movie he didn't understand, and somehow came to the conclusion it was good. That's like reading a book in a language you don't read and saying it was entertaining. He didn't like that movie, he was just enamored with the concept of watching moving pictures. Game's not out yet? Keeping track of development, but not addressing issues like this before the thing is pressed and sent out is the equivalent of sitting there with David Lynch smearing his thumb on your face for no reason and then later on claiming it was great, just so you don't have to defend how, when the time was right and you were there, you did nothing to curb these issues.

If those kind of people will just love whatever the developers put out, then let those of us who really want to see something be as good as it can be try to voice our opinions. "Rising cost of game development?" Hey, think of me and my kind and we'll be a lot happier to shell out; those other guys are gonna buy no matter what you do.

As a side note, I really can't believe that we're referencing things as "jack of all trades, master of none." While I'm sure many of you will find it hard to go through your catalogs of music and find bands that rotate actively, there are plenty of bands whose members do so with ease. There's even studio musicians and other session players whose entire musical livelihood is based on their ability to fill in well when needed. I'll take Steely Dan over most of the crap being suggested for tracklist downloads over in the forum there.



I will concede that some compromise is needed in the game, based off the overwhelming majority of the posts in this thread. I just wanted to state my opinion.

I'm quite certain that they are aware of the people on your side of the "opinion fence," since your people's views are already well-represented in the game. The views of those of us that just want to play with our friends and have a good time, as opposed to manage our band and make sure we're singing in key are trying to get along with it.

I keep stressing that it's not as though I don't like the game. If I didn't like the game, I wouldn't have these ideas to fix its issues, or the time to blather about them, really seemingly to a wall, here.


Shame so many have the 360 version. PS3 I don't have to sign out of PSN and back on to change my character. I just made 4 different personas for the instruments, not sure why we're crying over spilled milk here.

If this is really destroying the entire experience for you just make the same character multiple times.

Yeah thanks, because we haven't covered how irritating it is to re-make facepaint and tattoos, re-win all that money, rebuy everything for the character, back in and out of menus to change out, and other small issues like "type things in with that jank les paul dpad" in this thread. Thank you ever so much for your amazing forethought of "just do it how they make you do it."

I don't own a ps3, but I assume PSN is their equivalent of live. We don't need to sign out of that to change our characters either; we sign out of our controllers, since that is how our profiles are linked.

We're not crying over spilled milk, we are addressing a very frustrating and needlessly closed issue. If your system doesn't have it, great, but don't come in and sandbag us solely because you're happy with the gruel you're given. I'm sure there's plenty of threads in the "suggest a tracklist" forum that you can go into and suggest that those people just download what is made available and be happy with it, because you know, people that want some easy-to-play rock songs that they like will no doubt be overjoyed to shell out for a pack of near-impossible speedmetal songs that provide them nothing but frustration.

Lot of sandbags around here.

[jojo311]

As fantastic as Rock Band is for multiplayer on the same system, requiring the leader in BWT to always be playing is the most disappointing aspect of the game so far for me.

The first thing I did with my family (4 players total) when we got Rock Band was to go straight to BWT and create a band. Since I knew it would probably require some text input, I decided to use the Xbox controller to make the main selections (such as 'Create a band' and then further for naming our band). This automatically makes the singer the leader of the band. Therein lies my disappointment. We played as a band for 3 or 4 hours the first night. The next day only a couple of us wanted to play, so we decided to continue the BWT with our currently set up band. We wanted to do drums and lead guitar. Well, since the leader was set up as the singer, in order to use the same band one us had to do vocals. Lesson learned, I suppose.
In the manual, it does state that the and leader must be connected in order for the band to play. In my haste, I didn't read the manual first. In the very least, if its possible, I think when creating a band I would have liked a quick pop-up that indicates to the user that the band leader must always be present and playing in future BWT sessions, which I think would be a clearer message than stating that the leader must be connected.

Of course, if we could play without the band leader present or allow the band leader to change instruments, then that would be best.

[DDMagnaS]

I am totally in agreement, PLEASE fix this Harmonix!

[Frederf]

It's pretty clear why the RB devs made character-instrument associations static:

They want you to make more than one character.
And I can support that in theory. The character maker is a cool deal and it would be a shame to only visit it once. Honestly few of you would have a problem with this except for the short-sighted band-character link, character-merchandise link, and character-money link.

Obviously the RB dev's should have played with the Forza Motorsport paint mode 10 seconds longer and they would have found the "save shape" and "save overall design" features that take 2 hours worth of design and spare you from having to repeat it every time. That's pretty "Duh."

The RB devs certainly wanted your character-instrument combo to be defining of that character's personality and thus made it static. However here's another arena where Forza Motorsport provides meaningful example: In Forza you have a thing called a "Region" either North America, Europe, or Asia; basically your home town. It defines a lot about the flavor of how you play the game. Cars in your region are cheaper, certain ones are available only to you as a region member. Yet the region is changeable without being a completely meaningless setting to change on a whim. You pay cash, more for each subsequent change, to change regions.

Now imagine you're a singer and there's "Guitar Lessons: $2000" in the shop. It changes (expands?) your instrument but can't be done on a whim. Now learning drums as a third instrument might be $10,000. Just an idea.


As fantastic as Rock Band is for multiplayer on the same system, requiring the leader in BWT to always be playing is the most disappointing aspect of the game so far for me.

I agree that this is the crux of the issue.

The band shouldn't be tied to a character at all. Playing BWT is a long, long process and the odds that a single human being will want to play every time the band plays, that instrument, with that character are exceedingly low. The band should just exist and allow members to come and go as our lives necessitate. Band gets fans/progress, player profiles (or characters) get money/stuff. Dead simple.

As for money/stuff being character or profile centered that is certainly an interesting question. Obviously the player profile is what is playing the game, not the character, or is it obvious? There's a lot of stuff to win and time taken to win it to require each singer character garner it for themselves. Some may argue that having to win it over and over for 3 characters is needlessly grindy. What if you had 20 guitarist characters depending on the mood of the song? It's simply not in the cards to accumulate crap/$$ for 20 separate characters.

[SenatorIvy]

Really it's bad enough that the thing has some 58 songs, and there are many sets that take you through 8+ songs straight. That's almost 20% of the game's content in one pass. While I don't mind playing through the same songs a few times over, I am most definitely not interested in circumventing a poor design choice by forcing myself to play the game ad nauseam for each character made. It should be my choice to play the game until my fingers break because I like the game. As it is, I'm just going to get tired of playing it for the amount necessary solely to fix this issue.

If you have to force someone into a create-a-character, then they're just not into it. Making those that are going to be checking the create-a-character anyway play the game through over and over isn't going to do much more than punish them for wanting to go into it. If the money were tied to the profile, instead of the character, then I could see your point, however "I want to see what else I can do in there" in the current system is ALWAYS prefaced by "play through a big chunk of the game" just so you can get enough cash to buy something besides "black shirt."

It seems that most people's rationale for this design choice (when actually thought out, like yours, as opposed to the typical "THAT IS HOW IT IS PLAY IT AND LIKE IT OR GO MAKE YOUR OWN GAME GRR!") is that it would ideally bring together the screw-around people that are going to like the characters the most, and the pro-people that really don't care about much beyond the scrolling points that tell them when to hit the buttons. Frankly I think putting these two people together by force is a bad idea. Similar to how the world tour mode forces people to play on harder difficulties to advance, forcing creative people to trudge through the game so that you can try to lure the pro people into your create-a-character mode in a seemingly needless attempt to assure people that this game is in fact different than Guitar Hero is a bad idea that doesn't do either side justice. Ideas that flow freely through both types of players will come to the forefront in playing; trying to create an environment that forces that is akin to "pleasing everyone," which as we all know, never works. The game shouldn't force people out of their element. If you don't want to screw with characters, go ahead and use the randomized ones, or make one and be done with it. If you don't want to make 4 different (or even identical) characters, and just use your one avatar on any instrument you want, you should be able to do that. If you want to play with your friends, but you're no good (or physically unable to play on higher difficulties, as I'm sure many might be) then you playing on an easier difficulty should not prevent progress through the game, nor should you be forced to play on a skill level that you don't find enjoyable.

I don't know what kind of parties you all go to, but I leave any party that becomes a chore. A party game should be just that: a game you can play easily at a party. Anything tacked onto that scheme that hinders it should be reworked.

[Frederf]

While I don't mind playing through the same songs a few times over, I am most definitely not interested in circumventing a poor design choice by forcing myself to play the game ad nauseam for each character made.

If the money were tied to the profile, instead of the character, then I could see your point, however "I want to see what else I can do in there" in the current system is ALWAYS prefaced by "play through a big chunk of the game" just so you can get enough cash to buy something besides "black shirt."

If you want to play with your friends, but you're no good (or physically unable to play on higher difficulties, as I'm sure many might be) then you playing on an easier difficulty should not prevent progress through the game, nor should you be forced to play on a skill level that you don't find enjoyable.

I'd like to draw a comparison if I may to any fantasy RPG game where you choose a character and class at the beginning of the game; mage, ranger, fighter, whatever.

Now imagine someone complaining that it's totally unfair that they be forced to make a character to play Diablo and even further enraged that they (after having beaten the game and collecting everything as a fighter) had to start all over and create another character if they wanted to experience the game as a wizard.

You'd think they were a raving loon, right?

Now hold your pitchforks for just a moment as I comment on the incompatibility of RB's want to have you prolifically pump out characters while still being tight on the purse strings of clothing, cash, and other goodies. While I do enjoy the idea of having my character having his own closet/wallet, goodies and cash should definitely be savable or transferable.

It seems rather cold to completely erase your progress because you thought your favorite character would look cooler 10cm shorter or Native-American or something. "Delete character? Y/N" "Transfer all money/possessions to new character? Y/N."

BIG PROFOUND POINT ALERT

Clearly people that enjoy making characters a lot are getting screwed here. If the RB devs are so proud of their character-maker and want you to use it so much, why do they set up the game to punish its use?

The completionist gamer just makes 3 characters the first day and never touches them after that. All cash and goodies go into 1 of 3 pockets and their garages look like overburdened flea markets in no time.

The creative/RP gamer makes about 12 characters or more and finds their closets sparse and their wallets bare, leaving less than a lot of money to customize their avatars.

[SenatorIvy]

I'd like to draw a comparison if I may to any fantasy RPG game where you choose a character and class at the beginning of the game; mage, ranger, fighter, whatever.

Now imagine someone complaining that it's totally unfair that they be forced to make a character to play Diablo and even further enraged that they (after having beaten the game and collecting everything as a fighter) had to start all over and create another character if they wanted to experience the game as a wizard.

You'd think they were a raving loon, right?

Did I miss something, or did you compare a multiplayer party game wherein a profession/hobby whose direction is either almost universal, or easily-picked up to a single-player game wherein the character's chosen profession is one of a lifelong devotion whose focus is always rendered to save the world? :confused:

This isn't a roleplaying game, but even if it were, I make a character called Ivy, and I want to play her on whatever instrument I want to play her on. I don't want to have to make a new character with a different name and a different set of everything, especially if doing so requires trudging through the game again.

To me it seems as though there have been many points brought up against how they have done it here, but all that comes up for how they do it is either "well if you think of it in terms that don't apply to this genre/game/dynamic, it actually makes perfect sense that they would do something such as this" or "that's the way they did it, ok?!" If "deal with it!" was anything but an annoyance, a lot more people would watch Kid Nation.

[jmiscavish]

PLayed with 4 people finally last night. We had to play quickplay so that we didn't get bogged down in the sign in/out switch character crap that goes with BWT mode. It was great fun for each song we did, though. We just didn't play the main game mode for this entire experience.

[Frederf]

Did I miss something, or did you compare a multiplayer party game wherein a profession/hobby whose direction is either almost universal, or easily-picked up to a single-player game wherein the character's chosen profession is one of a lifelong devotion whose focus is always rendered to save the world? :confused:

This isn't a roleplaying game, but even if it were, I make a character called Ivy, and I want to play her on whatever instrument I want to play her on. I don't want to have to make a new character with a different name and a different set of everything, especially if doing so requires trudging through the game again.

For better or for worse, Rock Band is a role-playing game to some degree. Yes, in the world of analogies, similes, and metaphors we do compare things which are not indentical. You have to admit that the RPG elements of the game are cool. This band has more fans, this character has this in her closet, we got this Chicago venue unlocked with our band.

What I can't defend is what I see as a long list of unnecessary consequences of these RPG elements.

*Band leader required for the band to play
*Character permanently on one instrument
*Hard fan caps for difficulties
*Boggy menu system
*Non-transferable $/stuff for characters
*Non-editable band name
*Solo-tour per character mandated
etc

I have absolutely tons of ideas how the above unnecessary consequences of the RPG elements of the game could be lessened/bypassed without ruining the joy and value of those RPG elements.

[bigndnhpm9nc]

i agree with this, i started playing with the drums through a solo tour, i got tired and wanted to play through with the guitar only to find out that i had to start a brand new tour...it sucked by oh well at least this way i have constructed different chacters for each instrament which works but still sucks but at least you can have many different bands tho...me and my wife set up a band and we had friends come over and we were able to develop another band under the same profile...but overall it has its' positives and negatives

[Hellcat305]

As fantastic as Rock Band is for multiplayer on the same system, requiring the leader in BWT to always be playing is the most disappointing aspect of the game so far for me.

The first thing I did with my family (4 players total) when we got Rock Band was to go straight to BWT and create a band. Since I knew it would probably require some text input, I decided to use the Xbox controller to make the main selections (such as 'Create a band' and then further for naming our band). This automatically makes the singer the leader of the band. Therein lies my disappointment. We played as a band for 3 or 4 hours the first night. The next day only a couple of us wanted to play, so we decided to continue the BWT with our currently set up band. We wanted to do drums and lead guitar. Well, since the leader was set up as the singer, in order to use the same band one us had to do vocals. Lesson learned, I suppose.
In the manual, it does state that the and leader must be connected in order for the band to play. In my haste, I didn't read the manual first. In the very least, if its possible, I think when creating a band I would have liked a quick pop-up that indicates to the user that the band leader must always be present and playing in future BWT sessions, which I think would be a clearer message than stating that the leader must be connected.

Of course, if we could play without the band leader present or allow the band leader to change instruments, then that would be best.

A Simple 2 part solution..
Part One: allow a band to change who is the band leader. this way the band leader need not be present.

Part two of solution:allow band members to choose whatever instrument they want to play, with the only limiting factor being that there cannot be more than one person playing any one instrument.

Question for those on BWT and xbox: Did any of you have to register extra Xbox names in order to create band members? A few times it made us do this, very confusing

[Abspara]

Question for those on BWT and xbox: Did any of you have to register extra Xbox names in order to create band members? A few times it made us do this, very confusing

It's a very cumbersome system that's not explained or documented well, but you don't have to create extra xbox profile names to create band members.

[jmiscavish]

It actually depends on how many people are playing. I have to play under my profile, my wife needed a profile to play (we couldn't just put in "guest"), then anyone else needs to also sign in. That's a design flaw in both the game and the xbox 360.

[Frederf]

Something about achievements or some phooferilla.

The faster all your friends have 1 gamer profile per human being and three characters (singer, guitarist, drummer) per gamer profile the happier you'll all be.

[Everman]

Still, Being able to switch instruments seems only logical.

[Akzidenz]

Add my name to the list of people that want to see this.

[SenatorIvy]

Something about achievements or some phooferilla.

The faster all your friends have 1 gamer profile per human being and three characters (singer, guitarist, drummer) per gamer profile the happier you'll all be.


So the faster we all give in, the happier we'll be?

[Frederf]

Exactly ;)

[_epacs_]

Yeah , I was pretty suprised that I couldn't take my awesome drummer character that I had made and just give him a guitar... Hate having 2 different characters on 2 instruments.

[idonthavedsl]

The fact that I have to make three different chatacters to play all the instruments is stupid. I have my character that I make look the way I want and unlocked clothing and instruments.....then.....I have to start all over. It is just redundant and unnecessary. My character should be able to to do everything and get all the unlockables, period.

This directly effects the instrument switching in the band world tour. If your character is locked to the guitar then you cn't switch to singing or drums. This limits the use of your created character and again is completely unnecessary.

This needs to be changed immediately with a patch.

[Wolvklawz]

After a week of about 8 differen't people playing, I finally wised up. Characters were spread out, I have like 10 bands cause I never could remember who the leader was, very very frustrating. But finally I just made profiles for everyone who was going to play. I still have to have a character for each instrument, which isn't so bad now, as I made 3 differen't types of characters. But I was able to clear up all confusion for the Band leader and where anyones character was.

My profile is the band leader, everyone has their own profile with their own characters. When a switch happens, a quick sign out and sign in takes place with each instrument. Confusion gone. So if my wife wanted to stop singing, she signs out and a friend signs in with her profile and her character already there, takes a couple seconds. Not saying this is the best way to have done it, but based on how Rockband does the characters, its the easiest way for me to get everything straight.

[jafo1212]

I agree and so will anyone with the ability to play more then one instrument in game or in real life!!!!

[jafo1212]

After a week of about 8 differen't people playing, I finally wised up. Characters were spread out, I have like 10 bands cause I never could remember who the leader was, very very frustrating. But finally I just made profiles for everyone who was going to play. I still have to have a character for each instrument, which isn't so bad now, as I made 3 differen't types of characters. But I was able to clear up all confusion for the Band leader and where anyones character was.

My profile is the band leader, everyone has their own profile with their own characters. When a switch happens, a quick sign out and sign in takes place with each instrument. Confusion gone. So if my wife wanted to stop singing, she signs out and a friend signs in with her profile and her character already there, takes a couple seconds. Not saying this is the best way to have done it, but based on how Rockband does the characters, its the easiest way for me to get everything straight.

Done this, but the problem with it is this. If your band leader is the drummer then you can't play that band without the drums being used. You should be able to play any combination of instruments you choose and use ONE band.

[Frederf]

Done this, but the problem with it is this. If your band leader is the drummer then you can't play that band without the drums being used. You should be able to play any combination of instruments you choose and use ONE band.

Completely agree. Character = instrument + character = band combines to make for a really crappy situation. While I don't really care if I have to make 3 characters or 1, not being able to play my one band because no one wants to be "Mr. Drummerman" is teh lames.

[SenatorIvy]

Yeah, I don't see why it's not just a case of profile is the owner (all money/possessions/art are linked to profile) and any characters under that profile are completely editable.

EDIT: Also I question if you Harmonix people made your characters with the guitar/drums, and not just on the computer/dev units or whatever; I thought it wasn't possible, but somehow, in the Les Paul guitars, you have managed to find a dpad worse than the stock controller dpad. Drawing things with that thing is an irritation. If the instrument could be edited in the character, you could make it on a controller and just set it to whatever instrument you wanted.

[tobydied]

I never even thought of using same characters for different instruments, but it's a good idea, so I'm thinking another post would help bring about change. Also, the band for world tour should be able play no matter what member is present.

[billmcdougal]

Also I question if you Harmonix people made your characters with the guitar/drums, and not just on the computer/dev units or whatever; I thought it wasn't possible, but somehow, in the Les Paul guitars, you have managed to find a dpad worse than the stock controller dpad. Drawing things with that thing is an irritation. If the instrument could be edited in the character, you could make it on a controller and just set it to whatever instrument you wanted.

Actually, I found out that if you use the guitar/drums or whatever to enter into the logo/tat/etc editing mode, you can then just pick up any connected controller to make the changes. The instrument you are using only has to enter the mode in the first place.

Oh, and Rock Band doesn't have a Les Paul, GH3 Does. Rock Band comes with a Fender Stratocaster.

EDIT: And how do you draw? I thought you could only slap together and edit existing artworks and such?

[Abspara]

I also feel we should be able to change instruments for our created character. It only makes sense given that many "real life" artists are able to preform more then just one function in a band.

[Frederf]

Yeah, I don't see why it's not just a case of profile is the owner (all money/possessions/art are linked to profile) and any characters under that profile are completely editable.

EDIT: Also I question if you Harmonix people made your characters with the guitar/drums, and not just on the computer/dev units or whatever; I thought it wasn't possible, but somehow, in the Les Paul guitars, you have managed to find a dpad worse than the stock controller dpad. Drawing things with that thing is an irritation. If the instrument could be edited in the character, you could make it on a controller and just set it to whatever instrument you wanted.

Agreed. The fact that you have to use the drum/guitar controller to enter long names in the XBox typing thingy or manipulate the tattoo editor when there's a perfectly good hand controller sitting beside you that you can't use smacks of dumbness.

[SenatorIvy]

Actually, I found out that if you use the guitar/drums or whatever to enter into the logo/tat/etc editing mode, you can then just pick up any connected controller to make the changes. The instrument you are using only has to enter the mode in the first place.

Oh, and Rock Band doesn't have a Les Paul, GH3 Does. Rock Band comes with a Fender Stratocaster.

EDIT: And how do you draw? I thought you could only slap together and edit existing artworks and such?

Yeah I was thinking Les Paul because I use the GH controller to play RB. Both are terrible for menu/art use, but the RB's Fender dpad is just terrible. Overall I'm not happy with the guitars that ship with Rock Band; they seem to have been made with "what are the faults in the Guitar Hero guitar? Never have to go high on the neck, it's small, and it's loud." They fixed the small, certainly, they fixed the high on the neck, but in trying to fix the loudness they messed up the bar and nobody ever said "wait, who cares if it's loud; there's some dip banging away on the drums right next to them." :v

As for drawing, I was referring to aligning the shapes and such. There's no straight drawing part or anything. :)

[King_Nuthin]

Agreed. The fact that you have to use the drum/guitar controller to enter long names in the XBox typing thingy or manipulate the tattoo editor when there's a perfectly good hand controller sitting beside you that you can't use smacks of dumbness.
I was (well still am) annoyed at this, but now I just take the default name and change it later in the options screen at the main menu where I can use a regular controller.

I've created multiple characters for every instrument and like doing so, so no complaints from me on that one. I think Harmonix really wanted people to make multiple characters and get into this element of the game which is why they designed it this way, its quirky but I'd rather they fix the quirks than abandon the idea altogether.

[Lysander]

I find that the band leader being locked to one player extremely frustrating. I really wish this would get a fix.

[SenatorIvy]

No word on this, eh?

[Maggot_Brain]

No word on this, eh?

Going on three weeks and no word on nuffin'

[mitchb2]

We're infuriated by this as well. A very baffling design decision.

[JohnnyF1ve]

Yea, Hmx should fix this issue. Its just annoying as all hell trying to have fun with a bunch of friends. The way the game was designed to play! =[

[Apples]

With respect, I don't think there's value in continuing to bump a thread that's well over a week old.

The topic has been thoroughly discussed and debated, with multiple opportunities to have your opinions seen and heard. There is little new ground or opinion to be covered. As such, I believe it's time to put this one to bed.