Anyone Tried a Mod for Mad Catz Cymbals with RB 1 Drums?

[Bigtamw65]

Just wonder if anyone has tried doing a mod for the mad catz RBs cymbal on the RB1 drum kit. Seems like all the parts are available at Radio Shack or other electronic stores to make it happen, just unsure about the functionallity of it.

Any info would be helpful....I want the cymbals, just trying to decide if I have to buy more drums to get them.

[baldassbat]

Considering the effort and supplies necessary... Buy new drums.

[bugman72]

But where would the fun be in that, baldassbat? Not everyone wants or has the financial ability to buy a new set of drums THEN buy the add-on cymbals. Others, like me, enjoy the challenge of getting stuff to work that shouldn't in the first place.

As for your question Bigtamw65...I'm wanting to know the same thing. I've been looking at FelixtheCat's cymbal add-on thread for the RB1 set and think that you could do the same thing for the new cymbals. From what I've seen so far, the only thing you might need to change would be to use stereo 1/8" jacks instead of mono...but I'm not 100% on that yet.

Anyone have any positive insight into this?

[Bigtamw65]

Accodring to Gamestops info on the cymbals it only changes the sound not the score.....so is the type of sound controlled by the cymbal wiring or the wiring in the "black box" on the RB 2 drums?

[bugman72]

That's something that I'm not sure of yet. Have you checked out Felix's cymbals mod for the RB1 set?

Check out his YouTube video. Here's the link to his Scorehero mod thread.

http://rockband.scorehero.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=6408&sid=aff25da7943fc733a1074ac9c78aef45

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5a6aH3pmBnI

[bugman72]

Here's a little update to this idea. I have found out that you can adapt the RB2 Mad Catz cymbals to work with the RB1 drum set. Basically follow the instructions from Felix's thread, except instead of using mono 1/8" hardware, you use 1/8" stereo. I'm not 100% on the wiring yet, as the cymbals require power, which must be tapped from the RB1 drum set's controller.

I went out during lunch today and bought the last set of the 2-cymbal pack that my local Best Buy had. I hope to either get to the mod either tonight or Saturday sometime. I will post a bit more info on how to do this once I have it figured out myself. I know it can be done, as a user on scorehero's site (see collaboration thread linked in Felix's thread) has adapted his cymbals to work with his Playstation RB1 set.

[xSkanerx]

Ya know what? Not even that. I would be happy if someone could figure how how to make the wireless RB2 drums, wired. I've tried the drums, they're really good sounding, but I'm sick of the wirelessness of everything. Wireless guitar is enough I wanna keep my drums wired. Half the reason why I wanna buy the [seemingly non-exsistant] PS3 ION set, the other half is the plastic sounding cymbals but I could easily settle with those if the RB2 drums were wired.

[Bigtamw65]

Here's a little update to this idea. I have found out that you can adapt the RB2 Mad Catz cymbals to work with the RB1 drum set. Basically follow the instructions from Felix's thread, except instead of using mono 1/8" hardware, you use 1/8" stereo. I'm not 100% on the wiring yet, as the cymbals require power, which must be tapped from the RB1 drum set's controller.

Bug....

I got a the two pack last night....I have been following the thread in the other forum about mods for our drums. Please keep posting about what you have found and I will do the same...looking to make these work. I am having a bit of difficulty finding 1/8" stereo panel connectors. A parts list and power source would be most helpful.. Thanks

[bugman72]

I got mine at Radio Shack. I ended up getting the open circuit units, as they were smaller. The RS part number is 274-0249. They look a bit different than what RS's website shows. And they are SMALL. You should be able to put them just about anywhere.

I'm doing some reading on this thread about the wiring on a RB2 set. I've also contacted someone via PM who's done the mod to see what exactly he did, wiring wise.

http://www.rockband.com/forums/showthread.php?t=86886

That thread mentions something about the left channel and common ground need to be connected, yet the person whom I've contacted says that there should be a power source as well. So, I'm not entirely sure what to do. I'm beginning to think that maybe the tip of the stereo jack that people in the linked thread say is not used is actually where the power should be going through. But, without an RB2 drum set, I don't know that for sure. Hopefully the person will get back with me on the jack wiring.

[Bigtamw65]

Any word on the wiring scheme for the stereo jacks??? Going to Radio Shack and want to make sure I have the right equipment.

[bugman72]

Just did some quick checking after replacing the battery in my multimeter. First, here's the anatomy of a stereo plug (male end).

From the plug end it is 1) The tip, 2) rubber ring, 3) the sleeve, 4) rubber ring, 5) the ring then 6) the wire leading out to whatever you are wiring up to.


There are three wires on the circuit board inside the cymbal: Green, White and Red. The cymbal stereo jack is wired as follows:



Green = VCC 5V Power (Tip)
White = Ground (Sleeve)
Red = POS (Ring)


Now, to wire the jack (female end: RS Part 274-0249) you first have to obtain power for the Green (Tip) on the plug. If you take the back plate off of the controller section of the drum set, you will see where the controller cable plugs into the circuit board. There are four wires (360) on the cable. These are the same as a standard USB cable, color-wise.



Green = Data +
White = Data -
Red = VCC 5V
Black = Ground


You need to tap into the Red wire in order to give power to EACH of the 274-0249 jacks. So, if you are planning to have three cymbals, you will need to have three wires coming off of the red controller cable wire. Now, it's just a matter of figuring out where to mount the jacks and wire the jack according to the instructions on the back of the package. You'll need to cut the wires going to each drum pad, as directed in Felix's thread so you have the signal for the jack. From what I've read, the wires are non-polar, so it doesn't matter which goes to what connector. But, this may be incorrect. You might be able to tell the polarity of the wires from looking at the back of the controller circuit board. Just remember, your power wire goes to the tip, one goes to the sleeve and the other goes to the ring.

Now, all of this is purely subjective and based upon my research thus far. I have yet to actually do this to verify that all of this is 100% accurate. But, based upon everything that I've gathered, this is the correct method. As I do this, I am planning to take pictures to document the process. I hope to get this done tomorrow sometime.

[bugman72]

OK, I was able to get some time today to mess around with this project. I am now able to play the cymbals with my RB1 drum set, BUT when they are plugged in, the sensitivity on the corresponding drum heads is dramatically decreased. I have to hit the drum heads pretty hard in order to get them to register, but the cymbals work fine. If I unplug the cymbals, then the drum heads play normal. I don't know if this issue is due to the cymbals using a 5V power signal, which might effectively rob the drum heads of signal. I may try to remove the 5V power from the jacks to see if that makes a difference. The other thing to try is to bypass the circuit board inside the cymbal and wire the piezo directly instead. I'm only to assume that the 5V power for the cymbal is to power this circuit board, which may be the sensitivity controller so that when the piezo recognizes a soft hit, the game sees it as well. With our RB1 drums, regardless of how hard we hit the head, the game registers the same measure of sound.

Anyone have any insight or ideas on what might be going on and whether my theories are correct or not?

[seven11]

Does the fact that the cymbals are velocity sensitive affect anything for it to work with the rock band 1 drumkit?

[bugman72]

It does, to an extent. The 5V required on the stereo plug, I believe is to power a circuit board inside the cymbal. I believe that this board is what controls the velocity sensitivity.

While I'm here, I'll give an update. I ended up snipping the main power wire that I had tied into the controller cable for the 5V. Doing so kept the cymbals from taking over the signal from their respective drum pad color, but the sensitivity of the piezo SUCKED. I went today and bought one 273-073 piezo (of 5 stores in the area, there was only ONE available) and replaced the stock piezo in the cymbal with it. Installation is a no-brainer and the circuit board will screw right back down over the new one. The sensitivity of the cymbal is dramatically increased. It is very much playable, although I'm having some issue in getting it to register 1/16 notes consistently. I may do some searching around to find out how to make these piezos a bit more sensitive. Otherwise, it is perfectly usable for my skill level.

I will try and get some pictures of the piezo install once the new stock arrives on Thursday. I have pictures of the rest of the install that I will upload when I've got the piezo install pics.

If anyone has any questions on what I've done so far, by all means email me.

[Bigtamw65]

So from what you have done so far, does it seem as though this mod may not work exactly right with the RB1 drums? Or is there much more to it than just wiring new plugs and go?

Just wondering if it's worth it to just but new drums??

[bugman72]

There is always a learning curve when you're trying to make two things work with each other that weren't meant to "play nice" to begin with. There is a bit more involved than just adding plugs to the RB1 drum set. I will say that not needing to have the 5V from the controller cable to the jack makes things much easier. But, as a result, there's a bit of work that needs to be done to the cymbals. Not difficult, but work nonetheless. Really, all that you need to do to the cymbals is cut the black and red wires that go from the stock piezo to the circuit board, remove the piezo, put a new 273-073 piezo in, wire the red and black wires of the new piezo to the red and white wires of the cymbal's cord and you're done.

Like I mentioned in my previous post, once my other piezo comes in, I'll take some pics of the swap and post all pics at that time. Now, as for whether to just go out and buy the RB2 drum set, that's a personal decision. For me, it wasn't an option. I didn't really feel like (nor have the funds available for) spending the nearly $100 for the RB2 set and then another $30 for the cymbals. I was able to pick up the RB1 set for $45 new, got the cymbal 2-pk for $30 and spent about $8 in materials from Radio Shack. Yes, the cymbals don't function as they would if you had the RB2 set, but the RB1 set doesn't function like the RB2 set. What I'm saying is that the cymbals work at the same capacity as the RB1 set does...no velocity sensitivity. That's the big difference, besides being wireless, between the RB1 and RB2 sets anyway.

In summation, if you like to tinker around with stuff, want a bit of a challenge, have the necessary skills like soldering and working with small stuff and don't mind voiding any warranty you may have with your RB1 set and cymbals, then go for it. A warranty is of little consequence to me, since anything that MAY go wrong down the line can be fixed...most can be fixed with the knowledge gained by doing this project.

Whereas, if you value your warranty, don't have the skills necessary or are unsure of the process and have the extra cash for the new stuff, then that's the avenue you should pursuit.

[Bigtamw65]

That makes sense...I do like to tinker and have the skills, just impatient.

I found another thread about moding the controller that "taps" into a 5V source and was wondering if it was the same thing you did.

I wondering if the sensitivity has to do with decreased power since you are tapping into another source? Wonder if it is possible to give the cymbals there own 5v power source and if it would make a difference?

[Bigtamw65]

Forgot the link to other mod that shows the 5v source

http://www.rockband.com/forums/showthread.php?t=20420&page=104

[bugman72]

There was a guy over on Scorehero that said that he modded his cymbals to work with the RB1 set and used a 5V source. He didn't feel comfortable in telling me how he did it, so that's all the information that I had to go on. He never said whether he had the same issues I had with the cymbal taking over the signal from the corresponding drum pad when powered. If you don't mind, post the link to the thread you found. It may be a different one and can give some aide to our endeavour.

As for giving the cymbals their own 5V source, I thought about doing that, but didn't have a 5V transformer handy to mess around with. That would be something worth trying and would actually be quite simple to do.

[Bigtamw65]

How would you go about making the power supply and do you think that might solve the sensitvity problem?

I also read on the thread that I posted above that person replaced the piezo on the drums, that sounds like another solution if you use the wiring scheme that you first posted.

[bugman72]

I would simply find a 5V AC Adapter, either from Radio Shack or from something laying around the house (computer speakers, cell phone charger, etc). Wire a power and ground lead from each drum head's stereo jack to a M-style power jack and plug the adapter in.

I'm going to take a look at the link that you have. There may be some stuff that I can try from there. Otherwise, I believe the way that I have it right now is probably the best way...until someone shows me different :). I'm really thinking that the 5V is not necessary for an RB1 set, since it has no way of utilizing the variable signal for velocity sensitivity.

[Bigtamw65]

I think when I get home, I will try what you posted the first time and replace the piezo on the drum to see if that takes care of the sensitivity. If not I will switch the wiring and try changing the piezo on the cymbal. I will keep you posted.

Trying to keep the cymbals intact since I am already taking the drums apart...silly I know, but what can I say.

Also...wonder if wiring a mono jack would still allow the cymbal to work and not have to worry about any power source at all or does the cymbal require the power to ever register a hit?

[bugman72]

It's worth a try (replacing the drum piezo), but I don't think it will matter if you have 5V going to the cymbals. I think that since they are powered, they are sucking the signal away from the drum head.

I would almost recommend skipping all of that and just change the piezo on the cymbal and bypass the circuit board. Less wires to mess with (no need for the 5V...just tap into the leads of the piezo of the drum head). If you want to do something worthwhile to the drums while you have them apart, I'd do the coin mod or something similar to increase the sensitivity of the drums regardless of whether the cymbals are present or not. I'm getting ready to do the mouse pad and coin mods to mine, as I'm tired of hearing the "clack clack" of the drum heads when playing.

[KINGslackmaster]

just a thought, if you need to pull a 5v rail just use an old usb cord. cut one end off of it and just use the red and black wires. you can plug the usb into the usb hub and power it off of that.

[Bigtamw65]

Also...wonder if wiring a mono jack would still allow the cymbal to work and not have to worry about any power source at all or does the cymbal require the power to even register a hit?

Since you have had the cymbals apart, could you just disconnect the power wire from the cymbal circuit board and wire a plain mono plug and do the same thing??

[Bigtamw65]

It does, to an extent. The 5V required on the stereo plug, I believe is to power a circuit board inside the cymbal. I believe that this board is what controls the velocity sensitivity.

While I'm here, I'll give an update. I ended up snipping the main power wire that I had tied into the controller cable for the 5V. Doing so kept the cymbals from taking over the signal from their respective drum pad color, but the sensitivity of the piezo SUCKED. I went today and bought one 273-073 piezo (of 5 stores in the area, there was only ONE available) and replaced the stock piezo in the cymbal with it. Installation is a no-brainer and the circuit board will screw right back down over the new one. The sensitivity of the cymbal is dramatically increased. It is very much playable, although I'm having some issue in getting it to register 1/16 notes consistently. I may do some searching around to find out how to make these piezos a bit more sensitive. Otherwise, it is perfectly usable for my skill level.

I will try and get some pictures of the piezo install once the new stock arrives on Thursday. I have pictures of the rest of the install that I will upload when I've got the piezo install pics.

If anyone has any questions on what I've done so far, by all means email me.

Could you please post exactly how you wired your jacks for both schemes...I worked on this some this evening, but wasn't sure if I was hooking things up right. I go some hits registering on the yellow cymbal, but it wasn't consistent.

Also wanted to know your thoughts on getting power from a usb cord and someone else mentioned would you use just the red 5v wire on would you somehow have to ground it too.

[bugman72]

Sorry I've been away from this...had the stomach flu over the past two days. :(

Honestly, the more I mess around with these things, the more I think adding the 5V is completely pointless. The cymbals are more than functional without the 5V than the were with it. Plus, it's an additional wire to have to mess with.

You could rewire the cymbal with a mono cable, but why bother? It would be one more thing to have to mess with. It is much easier to just get a stereo jack for the drum kit and just wire two of the three connections. And, you can't use a mono jack with the stereo plug, as the contacts won't line up.

As you may remember, I was hoping to have pictures up of the replacement/installation of the RS piezo in the cymbals. Well, I had the affirmation that my local Radio Shack sucks beyond belief. When I purchased the last piezo on Sunday, the manager told me that they would have some on "this Thursday's truck." I asked him if he was positive that they would be on it and he assured me. Well, I go in last night to pick them up and they didn't get any. All of the other stores got some, just not the two in my town. The manager calls the other store and is having them FedExed to their store, but they won't get there until Monday. Until then, here's are the steps that I would recommend to get the cymbals to work.



Disassemble cymbal. Cut black and red wire to piezo.
Unscrew board covering piezo. Pull piezo out.
Remove foam on piezo and save for later.
Cut off tabs on RS 273-073 and place in hole where stock piezo was.
Desolder wires of cymbals stereo cable from board.
Place foam from old piezo on top of 273-073 and place board on top of foam.
Secure board with screws. Push board down, from center to compress foam enough to get screws started. Evenly tighten screws to not break board. DO NOT overtighten. Tighten screws just enough to secure board.
Solder wires from stereo cable to piezo. Red to red, black to white.
Put cymbal back together.
Disassemble drums and locate mounting location for stereo jack (274-0249). Drill hole for each jack.
Tap into wires for each drum head. I chose to solder onto circuit board where the drum's piezo plugs in.
Solder tapped leads to jack. One wire goes to the sleeve, one to the ring (it doesn't matter what wire goes to which section, as they are non-polar).
Place wired jack into drilled hole and secure. Repeat process for other drum heads.
Put drum set back together, plug in cymbals and enjoy!


One thing that I've done recently is added a piece of mousepad to the "hitting" surface of the cymbals. Out of the box, they are a tad bit noisy, especially compared to my drum heads that already have mousepads on them. Oddly enough, adding the mousepad to the cymbals helps with the sensitivity and accuracy. Just be sure to use the thicker (1/8" or thicker) mousepads with the fabric covering. The hard covered pads and the uber-thin pads are junk and will serve no purpose. Cut them to size and double-side tape them to the heads and cymbals and you're ready to rock.

[GlHalJordan2814]

I have RB1 and like the cymbals idea. Even if they don't correspond to new colours in the game, in freestyle mode they must be a blast. I don't, however like the idea of spending more money.

To upgrade the drums my best guess is to locate a replacement part for the RB2 Drums "brain" ie. the little box at the back of the drum set where the new cymbals plug in. It should contain a PCB that should connect to the wires comming from each drum pads. Assuming the RB1 Piezos are the same as the RB2's (not a guarentee) a wire for wire swap should provide you with a wireless drum set that would allow the cymbals full functionallity. As long as you can get the part and it fits reasonably in or on the old housing.

Otherwise to get only the bennefit of being able to hit a bonnefied cymbal as opposed the the drum pad; the goal is to fool the existing RB1 Drums into thinking you just hit the pad when you really hit the cymbal.

Installing 1/8" jacks is wise for convenience and to do a good job. From what I've read so far it sounds like the cymbals may do some processing as they require 5v. The best place to get 5v might be from the usb wire that powers the existing Printed Circuit Board in the set. If the cymbals are "smart" they may be tyring to send digital information to a RB2 Board expecting certain information from them. They may simply send a certain ammount of electricity back to the circuit board since Piezos as I understand them turn pressure into electricity. In this case the 5v may power an amplifier that boosts the piezos signal from the cymbal to the unit. Stronger hits result in a stronger sigal = touch sensitive. In this case the RB2 PCB is likely to be the only on thing processing the differences in signal amplitude.

The solution may lye in not powering the cymbals as you tried. No power = no signal amplificaton. The fact that the cymbal still works without 5v may suggest it dosn't power a processor in the cymbals. Good news.

The best I can suggest in the above case is...

Use a jack like the ones in you cpu or stereo. They look the same as the others but these may disconnect one circuit while the male jack is inserted, which reconnects when removed. Like when you Plug in headphones and the speakers shut off. Depending on how they work exactly, they may afford you the ability to plug in the cymbals and disconnect the pads automatically. No more confusion on the part of the Drum set. You may have to put both the wires from the pads and the cymbals on the jack in some configuration. I might be able to figure out the wiring if I had the things in front of me. I don't know the jacks will work for sure it's just an idea.

Just trying to be helpful.

[bugman72]

Your suggestions are definitely good ones, but I would wonder if you would actually be saving money, as opposed to what I did. And acquiring an RB2 drum controller board may prove to be a challenge.

You are correct regarding the best location to obtain a 5V source. But for the effort involved versus the resulting benefits, I would say that it isn't really worth it. There is a circuit board inside the cymbal that the 5V goes to, which I'm only to assume detects snd reports the velocity sensitivity to the main controller board. This serves no function, in stock form, with the RB1 drum set. I would (and did) completely bypass the board and wired the Radio Shack piezo directly to the cymbal's plug.

Your idea about using an 1/8" jack that cuts the signal going to the respective drum pad is definitely an option. But, I have found that I will sometimes still play the respective drum pad instead of the cymbal, depending upon the song. By using the abovementioned jack, you would still have only a 4-pad drum set, giving you less options when playing.

For anyone wanting to do this, the instructions that I posted here will work with no issues. How you decide to better this concept is up to you, your imagination, and your ability. I do appreciate GlHalJordan's ideas on this, as it shows yet another possibility on adapting the cymbals to our RB1 sets. I will say that the little bit of effort is definitely worth it. These things are a blast to play and just look cool when installed.

[GlHalJordan2814]

Bugman72 makes excellent points and I salute his efforts. I found his analysis interesting and thurough. He has put alot of thought and time into this mod and I support his findings. He should be commended for taking all of the risks and shareing his findings so others may fully enjoy "The RB2 Experience." He should also be congradulated on his success.

Knowledge is Power.
Thanks for the hard work.

[bugman72]

Thanks for the nod of support...it is very much appreciated. I can't take ALL the credit, but at least I've come to at least a basic adaptation solution.

[silksoul]

ok to make a long story short I wired the drums (RB1) just like it said in felix's post and into a mono female jack and cut the red and black cables in my cymbals and ran them into the male jacks that came with the cymbals, I plugged them into my drum kit and they work, problem is 1) the sensitivity is terrible and 2) my cymbals don't make the cymbal sounds they just do what the respective pad does, so my green cymbal sounds like my green drum pad versus having my crash or hi hat etc... Please give me detailed instructions on what I did wrong and how to fix it. Thank you in advance. :D

[silksoul]

ok to make a long story short I wired the drums (RB1) just like it said in felix's post and into a mono female jack and cut the red and black cables in my cymbals and ran them into the male jacks that came with the cymbals, I plugged them into my drum kit and they work, problem is 1) the sensitivity is terrible and 2) my cymbals don't make the cymbal sounds they just do what the respective pad does, so my green cymbal sounds like my green drum pad versus having my crash or hi hat etc... Please give me detailed instructions on what I did wrong and how to fix it. Thank you in advance.

[bugman72]

Sorry it's taken me so long to reply...never got notification of the post. Did you replace the piezo that came with the cymbals with the ones from Radio Shack? That, I discovered, is key to having ANY sort of sensitivity out of the cymbals. And as for the cymbals sounding like cymbals, you won't have that with this mod. You are in essence just creating an alternate drum pad for the two pads you tap into. This is one of the limitations with this mod. If you want them to sound like cymbals when hit, then you will need to use the RB2 drum set, unfortunately.