Remove the Fan Cap

[Aybara]

I'd like to push to get the fan caps removed from Medium and Hard.

Make it so that those who don't want to go Expert do not have to. Give the average player the ability to get all the venues and such.

Make separate leaderboards for uncapped Medium and Hards so that those people who MUST be better than everyone else can still stroke their hardcore egos.

I would even be fine with not getting my stats uploaded to a leaderboard. I just want to play the BWT mode. Gather fans, unlock venues (etc), and have FUN with my friends and family while doing it.

Not everyone is going to be able to play Expert mode. My 50-year-old parents can barely make a passable attempt playing on Medium. However, they ARE playing it. They like that it gives the whole family something to do when we get together.

My mom even wants to buy it for my Dad for Xmas. But when I said that playing on Easy you get capped after 2 hours of playing....That sure changed her mind quick.

[hardyfoster]

i probably won't even get to finish the game. i am forced to play guitar and sing at the same time. if i could do it all on guitar easy/medium singing easy that would be great.

hmx should do that since they refuse to make BWT playable by one person.

[Eman311]

My personal opinion on this, if you can consistently have everyone play on medium, to the point where you can still unlock venues and gain fans, it's ok. I really feel like medium isn't that hard of a step up from easy, especially after two solid hours of play.

Is it possible to beat (i.e get into the hall of fame) with just people on medium?

[Edgehopper]

What venues are unavailable to players on medium? You cap out at 260,000 fans, I know, but is anything inaccessible (rather than just not helping you gain fans)? Clearly the Hall of Fame and Endless Setlists are still available on Medium.

I do think there shouldn't be any venues or setlists that aren't unlockable through medium play, but I like the fan cap. There should be an incentive for players to push on to higher difficulty levels, and it makes sense that playing easy stuff won't give you more fans at some point.

[Eman311]

What venues are unavailable to players on medium? You cap out at 260,000 fans, I know, but is anything inaccessible (rather than just not helping you gain fans)? Clearly the Hall of Fame and Endless Setlists are still available on Medium.

I do think there shouldn't be any venues or setlists that aren't unlockable through medium play, but I like the fan cap. There should be an incentive for players to push on to higher difficulty levels, and it makes sense that playing easy stuff won't give you more fans at some point.

I'm glad to here you get into the hall of fame on medium. Mainly for the drums, I know noone will be able to play at a consistent hard or expert level. Everything else should be hard or above. Sucks it can't just average the difficulties, it would open things up quite a bit.

[1up]

I registered for these forums just to post in these threads. The fan cap stopped my band from going on.

[Eman311]

I don't mean to be rude to anyone, but is it that hard to go to medium? Most people should be decent on guitar to begin with, vocals are no different from eays to medium. The drums certainly are the toughest part to get used to, but give someone an hour or two and they should at least be able to struggle through a lot of songs.

[jmiscavish]

My wife and I are capped after 3 days. We're not good enough for hard on any instrument, especially singing...thanx a lot...

[drumphr34k]

I'd like to push to get the fan caps removed from Medium and Hard.

Make it so that those who don't want to go Expert do not have to. Give the average player the ability to get all the venues and such.

Make separate leaderboards for uncapped Medium and Hards so that those people who MUST be better than everyone else can still stroke their hardcore egos.

I would even be fine with not getting my stats uploaded to a leaderboard. I just want to play the BWT mode. Gather fans, unlock venues (etc), and have FUN with my friends and family while doing it.

Not everyone is going to be able to play Expert mode. My 50-year-old parents can barely make a passable attempt playing on Medium. However, they ARE playing it. They like that it gives the whole family something to do when we get together.

My mom even wants to buy it for my Dad for Xmas. But when I said that playing on Easy you get capped after 2 hours of playing....That sure changed her mind quick.



No.



Why not just continue on the easy mode w/ them? It's not like they can't progress any further on easy/medium, right? If you want to play with harder difficulty settings I'd recommend doing what I did, have different bands. It's good to see it's providing some family fun tho, that's cool.

The fan cap limit might help make it a incentive, kind of like gear in MMOs like "World of Warcraft" or a "Super High Lvl" in games like FFXII, except this game actually helps you out IRL. It's a cardio exercise w/ the drums on hard/expert if you get into it too.

[NattyLight]

My mom even wants to buy it for my Dad for Xmas. But when I said that playing on Easy you get capped after 2 hours of playing....That sure changed her mind quick.


How do you get capped at 2 hours? You can quickplay, play tug of war, and score battle all you want.


What special things do you get by only playing BWT? Do you just want the money so you can go shopping? If you care about actually playing songs, just unlock all of the songs and play quickplay

[EricRx]

My son and I have been playing BWT with drums on medium and guitar on hard. At what point will we be limited? We'd have a better chance going to expert on guitar than drums to hard. Will we soon be capped at 260,000? I know we got the plane. Other than that I have no idea how much is left.

[toefer]

My son and I have been playing BWT with drums on medium and guitar on hard. At what point will we be limited? We'd have a better chance going to expert on guitar than drums to hard. Will we soon be capped at 260,000? I know we got the plane. Other than that I have no idea how much is left.

Yes, medium caps at 260,000. Hard caps at 600,000. (I think). What people don't realize is the fan caps don't matter all that much., You can keep unlocking new gigs, songs, venues, etc., and keep earning stars and money. I think there are a couple venues that require 600,000 fans to unlock, but if that's all you're missing out on, it shouldn't be too big of a deal. The majority of BWT is still present when playing on medium.

[Eman311]

most people should have the ability of doing expert guitar/bass (on 360 anyways). Which will net them the 1 million fans they're prob striving for. Sure your buddies might get thrown to the side but they can deal :p

[Maggot_Brain]

Something weird happended yesterday. BWT. Drums and Guitar. The drummer played one song on medium and decided to go back to easy and wasn't allowed to! WTF?

[Gorilla Ranger]

It'd be cool if you could play at the big venues on easy/medium as a support act for a bigger band. If you hit less than say... 99% during the set you can hear the crowd yell abuse and hurl objects at you while you try to make it to the end.

[Maggot_Brain]

most people should have the ability of doing expert guitar/bass (on 360 anyways). Which will net them the 1 million fans they're prob striving for. Sure your buddies might get thrown to the side but they can deal :p

That's pretty funny. I'll pass that on to my grandpa with arthritis.

[Aybara]

I'd have to boot it up to look, but at a Medium fan cap there is one entire CITY I can't unlock as I need 219,000 more fans.

And a PR firm which I believe is fan limited also.

[MJDoja]

try getting better at the game in single player mode while unlocking all of the songs on your chosen difficulty level, then jam out to the later unlocked songs in quick play.

game been out for less than a week, and you have some aversion to harder play already? guess its too hardcore to spend time with a game.

advancing in BWT is about getting more fans.. if you want more songs take a quick session and just play thru medium on solo mode.

[Aybara]

try getting better at the game in single player mode while unlocking all of the songs on your chosen difficulty level, then jam out to the later unlocked songs in quick play.

game been out for less than a week, and you have some aversion to harder play already? guess its too hardcore to spend time with a game.

advancing in BWT is about getting more fans.. if you want more songs take a quick session and just play thru medium on solo mode.

Not everyone has the time or desire to learn expert on these games. Developers should NEVER punish someone for not having the time or desire to go hardcore.

Not everyone is out for the ego boost to say "Suck it up, I'm better than you!"

[Ventura]

Not everyone has the time or desire to learn expert on these games. Developers should NEVER punish someone for not having the time or desire to go hardcore.



Completely agree.

It's a party game, and people just want to have fun. Getting better enough, and enjoying it enough, to pump it up to the next difficulty level should be a choice, not a necessity.

[Hellcat305]

You have a game that is geared to a party crowd and then you cut off parts of the game? Party foul! Fan Caps may be cool for the experts out there, but allow continuing the game without fan caps for all playing levels. I know we switch levels depending on songs. There are some that vocally we can do on hard or expert, but some that are so male oriented that I as a female prefer to try them only on a lower level. I am sure that works also for guys with female songs.

This also reminds me to post about the lack of more female led vocals....hmmm

[Ultrace]

Not everyone has the time or desire to learn expert on these games. Developers should NEVER punish someone for not having the time or desire to go hardcore.
This is not a "punishment" -- you can still get into the Hall of Fame as well as access the Endless Setlist on medium. Games have traditionally had extra content for hardcore gamers going all the way back to retrieving all of your characters in Final Fantasy VI or beating Ruby/Emerald Weapons in other FFs. The game doesn't stop you from earning money or stars or even unlocking most of the content. It is not unreasonable for Harmonix to expect you to step up to Hard or Expert for a few of the items, especially since you can still "beat" BWT on medium.

I say leave the cap in place. It's part of the game's design and does not unduly interfere with "completing" BWT and has no impact on quickplay or other options to play with multiple people.

[Ultrace]

You have a game that is geared to a party crowd and then you cut off parts of the game? Party foul! Fan Caps may be cool for the experts out there, but allow continuing the game without fan caps for all playing levels. I know we switch levels depending on songs. There are some that vocally we can do on hard or expert, but some that are so male oriented that I as a female prefer to try them only on a lower level. I am sure that works also for guys with female songs.

This also reminds me to post about the lack of more female led vocals....hmmm

BWT is not a "party" mode. That would be quickplay. BWT is for sitting down and playing dedicated sessions with friends or co-players in order to unlock and access game content.

I'm all for more female led vocals. I thought the Donnas were great in GH1...

[Hellcat305]

BWT is not a "party" mode. That would be quickplay. BWT is for sitting down and playing dedicated sessions with friends or co-players in order to unlock and access game content.

I'm all for more female led vocals. I thought the Donnas were great in GH1...


In our house we have a party world tour band. And they are enjoying their career. We also have a more serious band. While quick play is nice, it is a lot more fun to have our party band already set up. I am all for gaining fans for better performances and having more achievements cash etc,that can only be gained if you are all in expert mode, just don't eliminate venue opportunities for those who are playing on medium.

[espher]

game been out for less than a week, and you have some aversion to harder play already? guess its too hardcore to spend time with a game.

This.

You do not lose any functionality by being capped to medium. You simply lose out on some fluff. Not a gamebreaker, and a perk to those who can play on higher difficulties.

[Angry_Games]

I don't mean to be rude to anyone, but is it that hard to go to medium? Most people should be decent on guitar to begin with, vocals are no different from eays to medium. The drums certainly are the toughest part to get used to, but give someone an hour or two and they should at least be able to struggle through a lot of songs.

you aren't being rude by asking. You are just not taking into account the people that play it that aren't game junkies like we are. I've got several (about 15 now) persons who have played it and their ages range from 7 years old to 64 years old. There's no way the older people who have NEVER played these kinds of games before are going to be able to play things like drums on medium, or sing on medium.

So play only guitar and bass for them you say...but that's not really an answer (you didn't say it I'm just putting it there for anyone else that might say it lol). EVERYONE that has seen this game in action has tried it so far, and all love it, and all would play it if they come over to my house or other households that own it (almost all of the 'family' that is my age has kids, but we still love our aunts, uncles, parents, etc, and it's a way to connect to all age groups, just like the Nintendo Wii is).

My gf and I by ourselves are capped at playing past easy because of the drums. We've both tried a few times to do Medium drums on relatively easy songs and it just ain't happening yet, but we'd love to be able to play more venues and such with just me playing Expert on guitar and her playing Easy on drums, or her playing Medium on guitar and me playing Easy on drums.

It's starting to get frustrating. My friends and I can all play guitar parts on Hard/Expert for the most part, but not even my friend of 20 years who has been playing drums for the last 10 can play past easy on teh drums. This isn't to say he never will be able to, nor is it to say I or my gf or anyone else wouldn't be able to.

This is saying though that I doubt my gf's 50 year old aunt will ever be able to play drums even on easy, so she's stuck on guitar/bass, and easy is tough enough for her. How about grandma who is 64 who used to be a singer when she was younger? She might be able to do medium but she nor the rest of us are going to be able to (nor want to) sit around all day long and practice like a 15 year old kid to be able to do Hard/Expert.

The game definitely brings people together in a way that I've only seen the Wii be able to do. And this is even better than the Wii in my opinion because it connects us all with music, and music that almost any age group can recognize. But it can get a little stale quickly if we are very limited.

Granted me and a buddy could probably unlock most of the game by ourselves in a 2-man band (dunno, ain't that far yet lol) on Hard (well, drums on medium for a LONG time maybe, who know?). That isn't really a solution either. What if some older folks get it and use it as a party game (you know how old people in their 40's are hahaha) but don't have anyone that can play those harder levels to unlock it?

Anyway, I'm sure Harmonix takes a look at most of these threads and gets some idea of the things that have to be done in RB2. Every brand new game has a few mistakes that the developers probably couldn't anticipate, or maybe couldn't get done in time. The game as a whole is something for all ages, and sorta makes me warm inside with the feeling of "community" in how a house full of people can just play for hours and hours and be entertained!

[espher]

Singing on medium will have nothing to do with video game ability.

Just throwing that out there. ;)

[MJDoja]

Not everyone has the time or desire to learn expert on these games. Developers should NEVER punish someone for not having the time or desire to go hardcore.

Not everyone is out for the ego boost to say "Suck it up, I'm better than you!"

Read and respond to what i said in my post. Not once did i say you need to play expert.

[KeyzerSoze1979]

I agree they should remove the cap, the BWT is the meat and potatoes of this game and it is far from the never ending/persistant gameplay that it was led up to be in interviews and such. I dont personally have a problem with it but it is very understandable that when you pay 200 dollars for something like this, it shouldnt have that brick wall in its major game mode.

[stlbss]

I agree they should remove the cap, the BWT is the meat and potatoes of this game and it is far from the never ending/persistant gameplay that it was led up to be in interviews and such. I dont personally have a problem with it but it is very understandable that when you pay 200 dollars for something like this, it shouldnt have that brick wall in its major game mode.


Debated whether to even post, because I hate to knock on Harmonix about this. Love the game, love the drums and the vocal incorporation into the performance. Love the art, the venues. RB represents everything that GH isn't anymore (and won't be as long as Neversoft is doing it). No question in my mind that RB should be the game of the year because it is so innovative, and so fun.

However, the BWT is a little disappointing because the wife is never going to get past medium. I can play hard/expert on guitar now, and am learning hard on the drums quickly. She may eventually be able to hard on the bass on some songs, but not all of them. So it is a little frustrating that we won't be able to hit all of the BWT tour stops apparently. Sorta flies in the face of the "party game" type vibe that's been mentioned countless times leading up to the RB release.

I don't really have a problem with restricting BWT to multiplayer, because in a worst case scenario, somebody who really, really wanted to do it could play guitar and sing (at least on medium). But to put additional hurdles in there on top of the multiplayer restriction doesn't seem right.

I don't care about achievements (play on PS3, also own a 360 and wouldn't care about it on there either). I just wish I could unlock all the stuff in BWT on medium.

Limiting BWT also reinforces to my wife that she is the weak link here, since she's the reason we won't be able to get any more fans. She asked me after we played a set last night "0 fans? Why didn't we get any more fans?" Didn't have the heart to tell her the developers think she stinks.

[toefer]

I think the caps should be left in place, but it would have been nicer if they were adjusted a bit. It doesn't take long to hit that medium cap, and once you do, you can still tour around and earn stars/money, but I can see why people get a little disappointed when they keep earning 0 more fans.

That being said, I don't think it's fair to say its unfair to require higher difficulty settings. To me, that's just the way games are. It's not the end of the world that you can't unlock everything playing on easy, and at the same time, it's nice that there's a reward for those who do play on the higher settings. It's not like everyone here that cruises through expert is just naturally talented. A lot of them put in a lot of time practicing songs, and should deserve some sort of reward.

Even on the family friendly Wii, if you look at a game like Super Mario Galaxy, it has a pretty big reward in the game for people who collect all the stars. Granted, collecting all the stars isn't exactly equivalent to playing on expert in RB, but it does require someone to put in a lot of time, in order to find all the stars. In that case, I think it's unfair for someone that just wants to play the game for 2 hours to demand they should be able to get the big unlockable too.

As it stands, a majority of BWT is still available on medium, and I think that's certainly feasible for most people. Guitar/bass, Guitar/Mic, or Bass/Mic on medium shouldn't be too hard. The only problem is if you are using a full band, and nobody is capable of doing drums on medium.

But, like I said, the fans thing is somewhat disappointing. I like the idea of the caps, but they should have been set higher (to >60,000 for easy, >260,000 for medium, >600,000 for hard), but oh well.

[Aybara]

Read and respond to what i said in my post. Not once did i say you need to play expert.

I'm not pointing my fingers specifically at you MJDoja, I am quoting you mainly for your part about not reading what people post, in hopes that others will respond to the questions I raise.

----

However, I am pointing my fingers at the fact that everyone who is FOR the caps is pretty much saying "Suck it up and get better".

Let's face it. Some people really enjoy the game and are rhythmically challenged. Others may not have the dexterity necessary.

I understand that you can get MOST of the game in Medium, and that you can complete most things. But why should those who aren't going to master beyond medium miss out on venue, costumes, and the like simply because they can't play at a higher level.

But my main point still stands....

How would removing the fan caps HURT?

It would give the non-experts the ability to unlock everything, and allow them to not feel like they are being forced to progress in difficulty. It would allow them to continue to feel like they are moving forward. Once you hit the fan cap, it does take something away from the experience, you can't argue with that. You get some new songs, and you go out and rock the house, and get 0 new fans.

I honestly believe that the only people who can find fault with the removal of the caps are the people who just have to be better than everyone else.

As I have said before. If BWT had no fan caps, and as a result your score did NOT go to the leaderboards, I wouldn't care. I doubt anyone who would take advantage of it would care.

Most people are there to play, not swing their e-peens in everyone else's faces.

[Jimmik]

I agree. My friends can't play for crap :(

[espher]

I like the imposed caps because it's another motivator for my friends and I to improve instead of just sitting on medium and racking up scores.

I believe all of the core gameplay should be accessible at a very low threshold (i.e. normal difficulty, which medium is), and then you can have optional or fluff things available for harder difficulties.

That's exactly what BWT does. Added venues? Fluff. Fans? Fluff.

But then again, different people have different 'gaming ideologies', so I can understand and respect why people want to see the number keep climbing on a lower difficulty simply because it is fluff.

I just view the venues and fans as the Rock Band multiplayer equivalent of getting the bonus unlockable guitars in GH2 for finishing higher difficulty levels, and I for one didn't throw a fit when I couldn't five star everything on expert to get that last fluff unlockable. I still had all of the songs, I still had all of the regular characters/guitars, and so forth. Not having a different background is not going to hinder my gaming experience.

[Aybara]

However, in the Guitar Hero games there was VERY little you couldn't unlock without going through on Expert.

I believe there were skins for completing hard and completing expert. Then skins for 5-star everything on hard and 5-star everything on Expert.

If the hardcore want special Xbox360 achievements I'm all for it. I don't care about my achievement list.

However, IIRC, the skins that you obtained in GH games did not show up when casually scrolling through your venue list.

Why restrict the 'fluff' to those who only play expert? It detracts absolutely NOTHING from the hardcore gameplay to allow other difficulties to unlock it.

As I have said before, some people are simply not going to be able to go higher than Medium (and in some cases Easy) as they are not ABLE to.

Some people may not be coordinated enough to play five frets on the guitars, or every note on the drums. Which is why I advocate removal of the caps.

Make it a setting. If you disable the cap, you don't get your score on the leaderboards. That way the Hardcore still get their ego stroked, and the casual gamer has access to all the venues and can 'feel good' about playing the game and increasing their fan bases.

There will always be those who want to excel and conquer expert, and there will be those who are out for an enjoyable experience. Why limit the 'fluff' to the hardcore, when the hardcore aren't usually the ones interested in the 'fluff'?

[espher]

Why restrict the 'fluff' to those who only play expert? It detracts absolutely NOTHING from the hardcore gameplay to allow other difficulties to unlock it.

There are two ways to look at it.

a) They decided to restrict fluff from people who don't play a higher difficulty.
b) They decided to include bonus fluff for people who do play a higher difficulty.

I'm a glass half-full kinda person. To me, the last venues are the equivalent to bonus guitars. To you, it's the equivalent to not having the last tier of songs available if you're playing on Easy.


Why limit the 'fluff' to the hardcore, when the hardcore aren't usually the ones interested in the 'fluff'?

Why not? There's clearly an argument to be made both ways. :)

[Maggot_Brain]

If there's a downside to having a company of MUSICIANS make a game, this is it. They think everyone out there has the innate ability to play musical instruments at a high level. It ain't so.

[JohnnyTurk]

gotta look at it the number 2 was in the above post because when you do anything on a harder difficulty u get rewards for it,

you let medium and hard get everything, ok, so what do those ppl who can do expert get? nothing, wait, we sohuld give them something, shouldnt we? yer whynot, but then let everyone get them! doesnt work like that

u get rewarded for how good you are its always the case,

[jmiscavish]

There should be a graduated fan system. Each player can garner a specific amount fans based on how well they do and what level they are playing at. That way people who play easy/medium would get less fans than those who play medium/medium but more than those who play easy/easy. Anybody who plays expert/expert would get lots and lots of fans, but just finish BWT quicker than the easy/easy people.

Then, it would change the speed that you unlock stuff, but people who aren't so good could still unlock everything in the game.

Instead of capping after a few hours, you could just cap it after they beat the game. Then people could go all the way back through on medium or hard or whatever.

[Ajax2006]

I would support it, I don't consistently play with good players, so it would be nice.

[Melkite445]

I completely agree with pulling the cap, you just get frozen on the leaderboard when you go over the limit with whatever difficulty you are playing, or just kill the leaderboard, I could care less about it; I just check it to see how many fans the G3orgiaBoys have...

They have nearly 42 million, BTW.

PULL THE CAP!!!!!!!!

I'm at the hard cap right now, I don't always feel like playing expert esp. with a few beers in me...

[steelcurtain187]

I am all for this too! I don't wanna be forced to play on hard or expert :mad:

[omg10avalanches]

I haven't made it to that point but I like the idea that you have to be like gods, like a real band to have that many fans. Well in most instances...

[yeahreally]

My wife and I have several bands for each combination of instruments that play, and I never expect her to get past medium on any instrument even though I can play on hard now. So I am in the same boat as a lot of you. In my opinion, BWT should keep the fan caps so hardcore players have bragging rights but allow you to unlock every venue and setlist on medium. Content really shouldn't be locked behind difficulty levels, but bragging rights should be.

[melman101]

To be honest, I'm not one for much of restricting people. However, I think the cap should stay. Reason being, was the very fact that we got to a point where we couldn't play the song unless both my girl and myself jumped to medium. She was scared at playing medium even though she had been playing GH III on easy. But it made us. And I definitely didn't want to drum on Medium. But guess what? We tried, and we both were able to do it. So I liked that very much. However, if they force us to go to hard, that will be tough. But from what I understand, i think we can pretty much unlock everything on Medium. So that's cool. And with the DLC, we can always add new songs and try to get more stars. Seems great to me.

Love this game.

[FlyinWhee]

Since when is it the game's fault if you can't beat it? Like many on here, I played through the NES and SNES days. Anyone who played back then should think "well, the game is kicking my ass, I need to try harder." That's it.

The game shouldn't BEND itself for you to beat it, you should try harder. And some games you will never beat, but that's never been a topic before the "Nice and Easy" days brought upon us by the Playstation Era.

Game designers are there for a reason, they make the game the way they think it should be, and balance the difficulty. If it doesn't suit you, well that's something you have a right to hold against the game, but not say it's one of its faults, it's just the way the decided to do it.

Don't you think they considered making the BWT exactly the same, no matter the difficulty? It would have been much easier for them, but balance-wise it's killing the replay value, if you unlock everything with no effort.

Just my two cents. Canadian cents, too.

[blue_dragonzero]

Since when is it the game's fault if you can't beat it? Like many on here, I played through the NES and SNES days. Anyone who played back then should think "well, the game is kicking my ass, I need to try harder." That's it.

The game shouldn't BEND itself for you to beat it, you should try harder. And some games you will never beat, but that's never been a topic before the "Nice and Easy" days brought upon us by the Playstation Era.

Game designers are there for a reason, they make the game the way they think it should be, and balance the difficulty. If it doesn't suit you, well that's something you have a right to hold against the game, but not say it's one of its faults, it's just the way the decided to do it.

Don't you think they considered making the BWT exactly the same, no matter the difficulty? It would have been much easier for them, but balance-wise it's killing the replay value, if you unlock everything with no effort.

Just my two cents. Canadian cents, too.

QFT. People think of the cap as a restriction, whenever it only rewards people. The game isn't going to make itself give all rewards out on medium because then there would be no incentive to play on expert, as the scores would probably be lower because of broken combos.

[KeyzerSoze1979]

This isnt Guitar Hero, you should not hit a brick wall in a 4 player co-op experience. The majority of people I would think who play BWT are regular people who dont have all day to devote to limbering up their fingers and pulling their hair out on hard-expert difficulty. You may have that oen person in the band who can play those top 2 tiers but the other 3 likely are first timers or casual players at best. The BWT was reported to be a PERSISTANT mode where people could play with their friends and enjoy the life of a rockstar wasnt it? I dont think they said anything about hitting a brick wall on easy-medium and having the cap only alienates the casual players.

That brick wall kills any persistant gameplay that the game was advertised to have. I dont know about the nay sayers who say the cap should stay so the people can keep their epeens but personally I enjoy playing this game with my friends and family more than anything and if Harmonix doesnt do something then those people will be discouraged and possibly give up all hope of playing what is the best multiplayer experience of the year.

[peck]

I agree the fan caps arent fair to the weaker players............. i play with my kids and they cant do hard yet, but that should not take away from their BWT experience!!!!!!!

[KeyzerSoze1979]

Can we get an HMX response to this at all or will we keep getting the silent treatment?

[Angry_Games]

Since when is it the game's fault if you can't beat it? Like many on here, I played through the NES and SNES days. Anyone who played back then should think "well, the game is kicking my ass, I need to try harder." That's it.

The game shouldn't BEND itself for you to beat it, you should try harder. And some games you will never beat, but that's never been a topic before the "Nice and Easy" days brought upon us by the Playstation Era.

Game designers are there for a reason, they make the game the way they think it should be, and balance the difficulty. If it doesn't suit you, well that's something you have a right to hold against the game, but not say it's one of its faults, it's just the way the decided to do it.

Don't you think they considered making the BWT exactly the same, no matter the difficulty? It would have been much easier for them, but balance-wise it's killing the replay value, if you unlock everything with no effort.

Just my two cents. Canadian cents, too.
so you expect my 50 year old aunt and 64 year old grandmother and my 7 year old nephews etc to all be able to beat this game on hard when they have real lives and can't play the game 28 hours a day like you?

Isn't this supposed to be a casual/party game? I thought it was. Replay value is very low if you can't enjoy the entire game without having a bunch of dorks that play it 34 hours a day beating it. I'd rather play with my gf, aunts, uncles, nephews, friends, etc.

[espher]

Can we get an HMX response to this at all or will we keep getting the silent treatment?

Why do they need to issue a response?

You're arguing against a design decision that I'm sure was deliberated to some great extent.

They aren't going to "Oh no, there's a 3:1 ratio of people on the forum that want this changed when the people that are satisfied with it aren't exactly going to run to the forum to register and voice their support for it, we better change it."



so you expect my 50 year old aunt and 64 year old grandmother and my 7 year old nephews etc to all be able to beat this game on hard when they have real lives and can't play the game 28 hours a day like you?

Isn't this supposed to be a casual/party game? I thought it was. Replay value is very low if you can't enjoy the entire game without having a bunch of dorks that play it 34 hours a day beating it. I'd rather play with my gf, aunts, uncles, nephews, friends, etc.

How are you not able to enjoy the 'whole game'?

If you're playing BWT you're making a commitment to play. If you're willing to invest enough time to get millions of fans that probably means you've invested enough time to advance in difficulty.

Plus, you can still enjoy the 'whole game' via Quickplay. You can still finish the BWT mode on Medium and the solo careers on any difficulty. You can still buy all of the unlockables without going to a higher difficulty.

You're not prevented from enjoying any of the gameplay elements (aside from harder charts) by not playing on higher difficulties.

[peck]

i wholeheartedly agree i can get by on expert guitar but not everyone can. the games suppose to be about making music and having fun. or so they said but making ppl play on harder levels is not fair to the ppl who cant do it! i have kids that love GH and RB but prbably will never be able to drum on hard or expert...(im still on med LOL)...

[toefer]

Why do they need to issue a response?

You're arguing against a design decision that I'm sure was deliberated to some great extent.

They aren't going to "Oh no, there's a 3:1 ratio of people on the forum that want this changed when the people that are satisfied with it aren't exactly going to run to the forum to register and voice their support for it, we better change it."

How are you not able to enjoy the 'whole game'?

If you're playing BWT you're making a commitment to play. If you're willing to invest enough time to get millions of fans that probably means you've invested enough time to advance in difficulty.

Plus, you can still enjoy the 'whole game' via Quickplay. You can still finish the BWT mode on Medium and the solo careers on any difficulty. You can still buy all of the unlockables without going to a higher difficulty.

You're not prevented from enjoying any of the gameplay elements (aside from harder charts) by not playing on higher difficulties.

I couldn't agree more. Nearly all of BWT is available on medium, and if you can't play on medium, then I don't know what's going on. For those who WANT to play on hard/expert (including those that spend hours practicing to play on those levels) there should most certainly be some sort of reward.

[Fully]

Seriously I didnt buy this game to be the greatest player in the world and mos def. not to frustrate me by trying to attempt to play on expert. I had Thanksgiving at my house and had the whole family playing and was having fun until it said we had to move to Hard to gain more fans which sucked b/c we are comfortable on easy and medium only.

I can uderstand the competition but I just want to play songs on World tour with friends and family without being frustrated like Guitar Hero 3 !! This game was $160 plus all the donwloandable content at least make this game more forgiving the replay value is there without having to put people threw the pressure of playing on expert. So make World Ban Tour available online and make the achievements easier to get for xbox360!

[sdsheppa]

I can agree that the caps are necessary yes but at the same time locking out content because of it isn't. Yea if the caps weren't there there wouldn't be anything for the hardcore gamer to do past beating the game, but thats not true because if your a hardcore gamer there is always the leader board to compete with.

I say what ever the highest requirement to unlock a venue or set list is should be the cap on fans, not some random number, that way the content is there for us, and the hardcore gamers can still have something to brag about, their fan numbers.

[espher]

I guess I just have a fundamental viewpoint difference on what a 'feature' or 'gameplay element' is.

I just can't fathom people complaining about not being able to get fluff backgrounds unless they play at a higher difficulty when there are no such complaints about similar features in other games.

[Malev0lent]

Some of you really are missing the big picture this post was trying to make. This fan cap completely ostracizes casual game players. My girlfriend doesn't want to play BWT anymore because of the cap, not because she can't get any stupid rewards, but because she feels like she's holding me back. My parents and other relatives can at best only do like 60-70% on easy, and they expect them to go to medium after two hours?

"You can still get stars and money". Yeah, but you see that lovely "You earned 0 fans." remark after every song, making them feel bad. And the only way to do different songs are to make your own set lists.

I could care less if the only way to get new unlockable content is to play on a higher difficulty, but to constantly slap casual players in the face isn't right. How do you expect us to keep playing for more than a month, and buying all your downloadable content you produce, Harmonix?

Oh, and don't get me wrong, I know they probably aren't even reading this board. And even if they are, there's no way their higher ups will care enough about the fans or future customers. They're not smart enough to look at the Wii and Nintendo and go "Hmm, this casual gaming audience is seeming to grow, maybe we should appeal to them more!"

I think the worst response yet was Quickplay was party mode. Yeah! There you go! I love making no money and playing in a wife beater all day! Or playing as one of those douche bag default characters! Freakin' idiot.

[darkhorse09]

i voted yesterday for taking off the cap limits, but i wanted to think up of a good reason why it should be taken off. the solution: it's all about the people that don't know hard or expert that holds them back. sure i can play on hard and expert (which i do), but what about my cousins and family members that are not that musically or gaming challenged (only can play on easy or medium)? i def know that my mom will not play on hard or expert, they (the family) want to have fun. or if they keep the caps on, then raise it to a respectible number. idk, it's a mood point.

[Bakkster]

so you expect my 50 year old aunt and 64 year old grandmother and my 7 year old nephews etc to all be able to beat this game on hard when they have real lives and can't play the game 28 hours a day like you?

Isn't this supposed to be a casual/party game? I thought it was. Replay value is very low if you can't enjoy the entire game without having a bunch of dorks that play it 34 hours a day beating it. I'd rather play with my gf, aunts, uncles, nephews, friends, etc.

Since when is BWT a casual/party mode? If you are more concerned about accommodating lower difficulty levels, perhaps quick-play is a mode better suited to your players. What is it about BWT that makes it a good party game that can only be done on Expert?

I like the system as it is. You only get locked from content on Easy, just like Guitar Hero. On Medium you have unlocked all the songs, and can play the two big setlists. Extra venues are an incentive to improve. If I'm playing with my friends on Hard, and there's no incentive to push it to Expert, we'll keep playing Hard. I want an incentive to go higher, and without it I see the game getting old for me very quickly.


Can we get an HMX response to this at all or will we keep getting the silent treatment?

I'm pretty sure they're taking a well deserved rest this weekend. A lot of HMX employees were posting on the forums on Thanksgiving. These guys have done a lot of work this week. I think they deserve some time to relax and play some Mass Effect. Not that I think they need to "respond", but if they want to, look for something on Monday.

[KeyzerSoze1979]

Why do they need to issue a response?

You're arguing against a design decision that I'm sure was deliberated to some great extent.

They aren't going to "Oh no, there's a 3:1 ratio of people on the forum that want this changed when the people that are satisfied with it aren't exactly going to run to the forum to register and voice their support for it, we better change it."




How are you not able to enjoy the 'whole game'?

If you're playing BWT you're making a commitment to play. If you're willing to invest enough time to get millions of fans that probably means you've invested enough time to advance in difficulty.

Plus, you can still enjoy the 'whole game' via Quickplay. You can still finish the BWT mode on Medium and the solo careers on any difficulty. You can still buy all of the unlockables without going to a higher difficulty.

You're not prevented from enjoying any of the gameplay elements (aside from harder charts) by not playing on higher difficulties.


I am sure most of the people who bought this game were not thinking they would hit a point where their bandmates would have to practice for days on end to advance in the main game mode. If HMX want this game to succeed then they need to patch this, its not about the people who are here on the forums. As you can see many of us have relatives and friends who have been playing with us and are simply unable to ramp up their difficulty to a hard/expert level. Let the people like myself and you who play the game and GH on a regular basis be rewarded but dont make the average joe sit back and feel like they are not good enough for Rock Band.

[KeithSkins]

I've got terrible hand-eye coordination and I'm awful at video games. Twenty years later, I'm still pissed at Nintendo for keeping me from beating Mario Bros. because of my lack of skill and my failure to challenge myself to get better. They should be looking out for those of us who'd rather just get by in a sea of mediocrity. ;)

[/sarcasm off]

Are you guys for real? It's a video game... like just about any other thing in life, there are rewards for challenging yourself to become better.

[KeyzerSoze1979]

I've got terrible hand-eye coordination and I'm awful at video games. Twenty years later, I'm still pissed at Nintendo for keeping me from beating Mario Bros. because of my lack of skill and my failure to challenge myself to get better. They should be looking out for those of us who'd rather just get by in a sea of mediocrity. ;)

[/sarcasm off]

Are you guys for real? It's a video game... like just about any other thing in life, there are rewards for challenging yourself to become better.


Nobody is saying the game should be a cake walk. They simply want to be able to play without having to make thier friends and family feel like they are not good enough. They could leave the fan cap in but still make the mode persistant as advertised. I dont know about you but im sure most people didnt buy this game to play by themself.

[Atsumi]

My personal opinion on this, if you can consistently have everyone play on medium, to the point where you can still unlock venues and gain fans, it's ok. I really feel like medium isn't that hard of a step up from easy, especially after two solid hours of play.

Is it possible to beat (i.e get into the hall of fame) with just people on medium?
You can make it to the Hall of Fame on medium. So don't try and push yourself to a level you're not ready for.

(I only know this, because I did get into the HoF on medium.)

[KeithSkins]

Nobody is saying the game should be a cake walk. They simply want to be able to play without having to make thier friends and family feel like they are not good enough. They could leave the fan cap in but still make the mode persistant as advertised. I dont know about you but im sure most people didnt buy this game to play by themself.

If your friends and family's self esteem is tied up in a video game that they rarely play, not getting 20,000,000 fans in BWT mode is the least of their concerns.

Why can't there be things that are special for people who work for them? Does everything have to cater to the lowest common denominator? It's not like rookies can't still play the game. Why can't there be something more rewarding for better players, while at the same time be accessible to the people you describe?

I'm as big a bleeding heart liberal as there is, but it's stuff like that's ruining society.

[ductyl]

I was a little upset when I ran into the easy cap on drums(with my newbie friend on guitar). I was actually going to create another band with me as leader on guitar, and my friend on bass, just so we could progress. He forced me to keep going though, and it worked out. It'll be a while before we'll get to hard... but it was a nice little push to make the leap into medium for both of us.

That said, I wouldn't mind if they spread the caps out more... even if they started giving fewer fans at each performance. We made the leap from easy to medium, and then quickly thereafter hit the medium cap. It would have been nice to maybe go a little longer before running into the next cap... I mean, we still have a bunch of venues that we haven't played, and we're already capped on fans.

Oh well, I can deal with it... and I have a suggestion to anyone who is struggling with drums... start a band with someone who has never played the guitar before. It's way more fun when you're both suffering through a song at a higher difficulty than you're comfortable with.... and way easier to accept the 0 fans when you know it's because of both of you ;)

- ductyl

[KeyzerSoze1979]

If your friends and family's self esteem is tied up in a video game that they rarely play, not getting 20,000,000 fans in BWT mode is the least of their concerns.

Why can't there be things that are special for people who work for them? Does everything have to cater to the lowest common denominator? It's not like rookies can't still play the game. Why can't there be something more rewarding for better players, while at the same time be accessible to the people you describe?

I'm as big a bleeding heart liberal as there is, but it's stuff like that's ruining society.


Once again nobody is asking for a cake walk, and no nobody has physically broken down or pitched a fit in my family or circle of friends about the fan cap. It would just be nice for them to play on a difficulty that they feel comfortable at and be able to play the whole mode and not just a small list. I have a couple friends who are working on playing drums and singing on the hard tier but my 50+yr old mother and others are not able. Please elaborate on how this is ruining society to actually want to have fun with your family and friends, I would love to hear any excuse you may come up with.

[MJDoja]

I'm not pointing my fingers specifically at you MJDoja, I am quoting you mainly for your part about not reading what people post, in hopes that others will respond to the questions I raise.

----

However, I am pointing my fingers at the fact that everyone who is FOR the caps is pretty much saying "Suck it up and get better".

Let's face it. Some people really enjoy the game and are rhythmically challenged. Others may not have the dexterity necessary.

I understand that you can get MOST of the game in Medium, and that you can complete most things. But why should those who aren't going to master beyond medium miss out on venue, costumes, and the like simply because they can't play at a higher level.

But my main point still stands....

How would removing the fan caps HURT?

It would give the non-experts the ability to unlock everything, and allow them to not feel like they are being forced to progress in difficulty. It would allow them to continue to feel like they are moving forward. Once you hit the fan cap, it does take something away from the experience, you can't argue with that. You get some new songs, and you go out and rock the house, and get 0 new fans.

I honestly believe that the only people who can find fault with the removal of the caps are the people who just have to be better than everyone else.

As I have said before. If BWT had no fan caps, and as a result your score did NOT go to the leaderboards, I wouldn't care. I doubt anyone who would take advantage of it would care.

Most people are there to play, not swing their e-peens in everyone else's faces.

you go from making a good point to talking about e-peens.. sorry man.. acting like that you lost me.. however the point still stands.

i have sympathy for those who are unable to unlock all of the songs in teh game on BWT medium, i have already played through the game in solo mode and therefore can jam to the songs that i want for a while in quick play.. but if people are already hitting the fan cap and are just stick playing mid-tier songs because they cant unlock any venues... well, its not exactly casual.. and definitely not very fun for those who arent trying to kill themselves learning hard songs just yet.

BWT is a fun little cool mode... it seems like harmonix geared it towards people practicing tougher songs on their own and then coming together to rock BWT. they are also rewarding players who DO push their skill to rock harder.

seems like a double edged sword.

i dont want the casual crowd to be alienated.. sometimes people have friends/family who arent as talented or experienced in these type of games but still want to have fun and play for a few hours. if somebody isnt ready for medium you shouldnt force them.

if you can't unlock all the songs in bwt without going to hard mode, then they might want to change or adjust that a bit for the more casual/less skilled gamer.

[Angry_Games]

hrmm...why not a 'hardcore' mode for everyone who can play better than medium, and a 'casual' mode for the rest of us who like to play with grandma?

[espher]

I am sure most of the people who bought this game were not thinking they would hit a point where their bandmates would have to practice for days on end to advance in the main game mode.

What were you expecting from the Rock Band equivalent of a campaign mode? Any other single-player game with a 'story' mode expects you to improve in skill the more you play it up until the point that you can complete the game.

Perhaps the caps are hit too quick. Perhaps you should get fewer fans from each performance so it takes longer to hit the cap. That's another solution, although I'm sure people wouldn't like it because the numbers would be lower.


If HMX want this game to succeed then they need to patch this, its not about the people who are here on the forums. As you can see many of us have relatives and friends who have been playing with us and are simply unable to ramp up their difficulty to a hard/expert level. Let the people like myself and you who play the game and GH on a regular basis be rewarded but dont make the average joe sit back and feel like they are not good enough for Rock Band.

I would be very surprised (and disappointed) if someone dropped the cash on this game and then decided they didn't want to play it anymore when they couldn't unlock a background.

The 'average joe' is good enough to get a fairly large fan base. The 'average joe' is able to play the game in some capacity (guitar, bass, vocals, and drums with practice) on the average difficulty setting - medium. The 'slightly above average joe' is able to get an even larger fan base. The 'not at all average joe' can get it all, save the hookers and blow which the ESRB probably wouldn't allow.

If you're going to sit there and play a campaign mode at length you can eventually make the jump to medium to get those extra fans once you feel satisfied with your ability to play easy.

Band World Tour is not a party mode. It requires the completion of various tasks to accomplish a goal. It is an involved long-term campaign that requires a significant time and gradual skill progression. It is most certainly a group mode, but more for a group that is determined to finish it and improve than a group of friends just looking to have fun in a casual environment.

Quickplay is a party mode. It does not require any sort of time commitment or progression to unlock content (aside from entering a cheat code or the game owner finishing a single-player mode, but that's not a facet of Quickplay mode in and of itself). You can pick up and play this mode without any other limitations. This mode is geared towards people looking to have a good time. People looking for long-term tracking or goals or an incentive to improve will gravitate towards the solo or band campaigns.

Even the most casual of multiplayer games are either driven by co-operation or competition, and just about all video games by design are geared towards long-term completion of a task. This is no exception, and if you don't want to play the game that way, there are other modes for that purpose.

People don't complain about other games locking out bonus features available through other difficulties. Rock Band just tells you what you're missing out on up front so you have something to strive for (or cry about).

[MJDoja]

Why do they need to issue a response?

You're arguing against a design decision that I'm sure was deliberated to some great extent.

They aren't going to "Oh no, there's a 3:1 ratio of people on the forum that want this changed when the people that are satisfied with it aren't exactly going to run to the forum to register and voice their support for it, we better change it."




How are you not able to enjoy the 'whole game'?

If you're playing BWT you're making a commitment to play. If you're willing to invest enough time to get millions of fans that probably means you've invested enough time to advance in difficulty.

Plus, you can still enjoy the 'whole game' via Quickplay. You can still finish the BWT mode on Medium and the solo careers on any difficulty. You can still buy all of the unlockables without going to a higher difficulty.

You're not prevented from enjoying any of the gameplay elements (aside from harder charts) by not playing on higher difficulties.

54 year old aunts and 64 year old grandmothers.. look if they can rock, then let em.

but im a gamer and i last i heard this isnt a casual or party game its exactly what it is. rock band. i love when people try to revise the facts just to make it suit them.

after reading more of these responses, im guessing that all songs are unlockable on medium, therefore i see no problem with the fan caps.. an adjustment is always nice, but removal? im just not for it.

if youre 3, 65, 18, or whatever and you are totally inexperienced with this game, you should try playing songs on easy and learning how to play instead of making polls. people arent born good at these games, or skilled at instruments, its just that rhythm games are nothing new, so people are definitely looking for a challenge on the other end of the "casual gamer" stick.

adjust the fan cap? sure. remove? meh, still not convinced beyond my philosophy. tell your 88 year old grandma and your 7 month old faetus that they can suck it up and get better. LOL.. jk there.

[KeithSkins]

Once again nobody is asking for a cake walk, and no nobody has physically broken down or pitched a fit in my family or circle of friends about the fan cap. It would just be nice for them to play on a difficulty that they feel comfortable at and be able to play the whole mode and not just a small list. I have a couple friends who are working on playing drums and singing on the hard tier but my 50+yr old mother and others are not able. Please elaborate on how this is ruining society to actually want to have fun with your family and friends, I would love to hear any excuse you may come up with.

It's a sense of entitlement that is hindering society, IMO. At least a certain segment of it. It's just a game, but it's also a microcosm of what I'm talking about.

You want all the benefits and rewards offered to the people that are willing/able to work harder for them, without actually doing any of that. It's stuff like that I see every day in my job as an educator, and it's the largest challenge that I face with my students.

You also seem to want to ignore the solutions that others have posted. Every song is available on easy, so if you want to get the whole damn family together, you can. And as for BWT tour, virtually the entire experience is available to your friends if they want to make the marginal step up to medium.

But if you'd rather pine to have your cake and eat it, too, that's your prerogative. No skin off my back. I'll continue to enjoy the game as is.

[espher]

I was just discussing this topic with my mother (who came over so we can play BWT and watch the Leafs lose yet another hockey game).

To quote, "If people want to remove the cap, why not just make the whole game just play on easy so everyone can play? What's the point of a higher difficulty and the point of having a story mode?"

Full disclosure: She can only play easy guitar, can struggle through the drums on easy, and can do easy/medium on vocals.

[Killasauras Rex's Dinner]

im in "Killasauras Rex's Dinner"
our two guitarists play on expert difficulty.
with me on drums, i play on hard mostly, but expert on easy songs.
and our singer, who is 11 haha, does medium/hard.

we haven't really had a problem the fan cap, its just sometimes you have to step it up, and try to get better. with drums being the hardest task, ive worked from medium to expert, but thats not saying everyone else wants to do that.

i think it is a good idea to get it fixed where no one is limited to not accessing other venues, because my family deff isn't gonna play on expert haha.

[metalupyerbum]

The only problem is, when i don't have a few of my bros, or 4 players, my wife love to play. There ain't no way in hell she can move upto hard, just ain't gonna happen. BWT, at a atand-still.

[Killasauras Rex's Dinner]

i guess making separate bands might help. a high difficulty band. and a fun family band idk

[KeyzerSoze1979]

It's a sense of entitlement that is hindering society, IMO. At least a certain segment of it. It's just a game, but it's also a microcosm of what I'm talking about.

You want all the benefits and rewards offered to the people that are willing/able to work harder for them, without actually doing any of that. It's stuff like that I see every day in my job as an educator, and it's the largest challenge that I face with my students.

You also seem to want to ignore the solutions that others have posted. Every song is available on easy, so if you want to get the whole damn family together, you can. And as for BWT tour, virtually the entire experience is available to your friends if they want to make the marginal step up to medium.

But if you'd rather pine to have your cake and eat it, too, that's your prerogative. No skin off my back. I'll continue to enjoy the game as is.

There is a reason that BWT is under multiplayer, it is meant to be played with others. My friends and family like quickplay just fine but the BWT mode offers a bigger sense of accomplishment to them and many others it seems. That aspect should not be confined to people like myself who have more experience and play time than others. God forbid that everyone should get to enjoy the BWT mode.

[KeithSkins]

...My friends and family like quickplay just fine but the BWT mode offers a bigger sense of accomplishment to them and many others it seems...


What sense of accomplishment does anyone get if they aren't improving? You have to accomplish something to get an actual sense of accomplishment. See my above arguments.

Nothing wrong with playing the game casually... I just don't agree that BWT should be castrated to accommodate folks unwilling to get better. That seems to defeat the whole point of that game mode.

[Bakkster]

The only problem is, when i don't have a few of my bros, or 4 players, my wife love to play. There ain't no way in hell she can move upto hard, just ain't gonna happen. BWT, at a atand-still.

What can't you do on medium that you can on hard? I've played BWT most of the way through Europe while on Medium. Only reason I moved up was because I wanted to, not because I had to.


What sense of accomplishment does anyone get if they aren't improving? You have to accomplish something to get an actual sense of accomplishment. See my above arguments.

Nothing wrong with playing the game casually... I just don't agree that BWT should be castrated to accommodate folks unwilling to get better. That seems to defeat the whole point of that game mode.

Agreed. Nothing wrong with playing on easy, but nobody gets anywhere by sticking on easy. Either accept they need to stick to small bars, or play quickplay.

[KeyzerSoze1979]

What sense of accomplishment does anyone get if they aren't improving? You have to accomplish something to get an actual sense of accomplishment. See my above arguments.

Nothing wrong with playing the game casually... I just don't agree that BWT should be castrated to accommodate folks unwilling to get better. That seems to defeat the whole point of that game mode.

They dont HAVE to "castrate" BWT. They can simply allow people to play it however they see fit without constricting them by forcing them to increase their difficulty. They dont have to lift the cap on the mode even. There are other ways to make the mode truely persistant without stepping on thick headed individuals toes.

[MundaneSoul]

Yeah, hit the cap pretty quickly while playing in a band with my parents (me on Hard drums, my wife and parents on Medium). I have to say, it was pretty disappointing. This kinda kills BWT for casual players.

[HubbubJub]

I encountered this same problem with my band -- while our two guitarists could do Expert on most of the songs without a problem, our singer and I, our drummer, couldn't do higher than Medium on all but the easiest of songs. So we spent a few hours going back and getting higher stars on old venues, which allowed us to do more in the World Tour. However, because of this practice, within a few hours we were able to attempt many of the venues on Hard. I think this is the behavior that Harmonix intended, and I personally received a much higher sense of accomplishment by being forced to play on Hard than if I had just strolled through the rest of the tour on Medium. Those of you with less skilled band members, you really shouldn't disparage and say that they'll never reach Hard. Rock Band is not a typical video game, and it's foolish to say that the learning curve is impossibly steep when it's been out for less than a week. Give it some time; if you already had a billion fans by playing through on Easy, there would be no incentive to continue the World Tour.

[KeithSkins]

I encountered this same problem with my band -- while our two guitarists could do Expert on most of the songs without a problem, our singer and I, our drummer, couldn't do higher than Medium on all but the easiest of songs. So we spent a few hours going back and getting higher stars on old venues, which allowed us to do more in the World Tour. However, because of this practice, within a few hours we were able to attempt many of the venues on Hard. I think this is the behavior that Harmonix intended, and I personally received a much higher sense of accomplishment by being forced to play on Hard than if I had just strolled through the rest of the tour on Medium. Those of you with less skilled band members, you really shouldn't disparage and say that they'll never reach Hard. Rock Band is not a typical video game, and it's hard to say that the learning curve is impossibly steep when it's been out for less than a month.

Awesome... that's exactly what I was getting at. Good for you!

[HubbubJub]

Thanks, and also, one last thing just so people know: YOU CAN FINISH BWT ON MEDIUM. Playing at higher difficulties only nets you more fans and a few more cities that generally only have one venue anyway.

[visualdeity]

My vote says yes. Restricting the lower difficulty levels (yes, even Easy) from beating the game 100% is so ****ing lame.

[Aybara]

It amazes me that all the people are still hinging on the fact that 'you must get better'.

We want our rewards for being awesome. You can't have our rewards because you are not as awesome as we are. Isn't that what the leaderboards are for?

Oh wait, could it be because someone already has 42 million fans that they are pretty much unreachable?

So my point is still as valid as post one, and still as important.

If you want to beat it on Expert you do get something special. You get all the pretty Expert-colored checks next to each line in each venue.

Here is another suggestion, it still wouldn't kill anything (I'd like to see someone catch the 1st place band, but I doubt ANYONE out there is going to do it for quite some time).

Remove the fan caps. But change the various values in gaining fans. That way, a band playing on Expert gets unrestricted fan gain, up to whatever amount the program will give you.

A band playing on Hard gets a lower percentage of fans. Say like 75% of what the Expert band would get for the same performance.

And so on down the line.

In essence, what you are doing there is giving the 'hardcore' their leaderboards and the ability to outpace everyone who doesn't want to play Expert. On the flipside, the casual gamers playing Easy/Medium/Hard get their experience extended. They would be more likely to play LONGER thus helping extend the life of the game as a whole.

Casuals do not differ much from hardcore. They want to move up the ranks and get better. If/when they are ready to move up to the next level and gain the fans faster, they will.

But if you remove the cap and they earn fans SLOWER, they are still making forward progress. It just takes them longer to do it. That way everyone is happy, the hardcore can go Expert and get everything in a week, and the casual can play Medium for 3 months and eventually unlock everything as well.

[Eman311]

^ That's a good idea.

Easy gets 25%, medium 50% ands hard 75%


seems fair to me on many levels.

edit: actually met me say this, if you're playing consistently on medium for 3 months I would hope at some point you've gained the ability to jump to hard and be decent.

[Aybara]

^ That's a good idea.

Easy gets 25%, medium 50% ands hard 75%


seems fair to me on many levels.

edit: actually met me say this, if you're playing consistently on medium for 3 months I would hope at some point you've gained the ability to jump to hard and be decent.

I don't disagree with that last part. Most people will eventually become proficient and move up. That is how I progress. But some people, even with practice and practice and practice, might not be able to hold a tone and move up on Vocals. Some people may not have the finger dexterity to move up on Guitar. Some people can't pat their heads and rub their tummy, which means playing drums is right out :)

It all boils down to the fundamentals...

How would removing the fan cap ruin YOUR playing experience in YOUR house with YOUR friends?

I mean, when you play Expert, unlock everything and master every song, are you going to put the game away and stop playing? Some might, and others (like the 1st place band on the leaderboards) keep playing to keep accumulating fans.

But the caps have taken that part of the fun away from the casual gamer. Plus, the hardcore and those who seem to be arguing in favor of the caps seem to be forgetting this is just a game (although they are quick to point it out). So why keep the fun parts away from the casual gamer?

Finishing a set of songs that kick your ass (and there are some on Medium that still do at the higher levels) and seeing that you got even SOME fans gives you the drive to play that 'one more set'.

My wife and I unpacked and started playing at 11pm, and didn't even THINK of stopping until we hit the cap. Once we hit it and were told to increase the difficulty, it stopped being fun, and became something that would require practice. So we turned it off for the night....at 4am.

[Loxguard]

Hey, here's an idea! Instead of complaining about the fan cap you could learn to play on Hard and Expert instead.

[Maggot_Brain]

hrmm...why not a 'hardcore' mode for everyone who can play better than medium, and a 'casual' mode for the rest of us who like to play with grandma?

Perfect solution! A friend and I play on hard/expert while everyone else we know is easy/medium. I don't always need to show off either. I guess I'm secure in my real peen. :D

[espher]

I just find it's funny that a thread has reached this length due to the fact that one of three numbers that is tracked stops going up and thus ruins the game for a casual player in a non-casual game mode.

[Maggot_Brain]

Hey, here's an idea! Instead of complaining about the fan cap you could learn to play on Hard and Expert instead.

Oh, gee, that was, like, suggested on page one. Didn't you read it? And you're wrong.

[Maggot_Brain]

I just find it's funny that a thread has reached this length due to the fact that one of three numbers that is tracked stops going up and thus ruins the game for a casual player in a non-casual game mode.

And removing/altering the cap would ruin the game for you?

[Hanrahan89]

I don't understand why it is such a bad thing to get capped. It's not like BWT is the only way to play with your friends the first day I had Rock Band me and my friends played only quickplay songs for 3 hours switching instruments. I think the cap is a good thing to help you improve at the game and it makes BWT last longer. If there was no cap anyone could just run through the game on easy and be done in a day.

[espher]

And removing/altering the cap would ruin the game for you?

It would not ruin the game for me, but to me it's like complaining about the difficulty levels in other games when you can play the same game on normal, hard, or legendary/extreme/nightmare/godlike and you just get extra fluff for the higher difficulties.

I would not really raise a fuss if they decided to put the change through, but I think it's absolutely inane to be *****ing about this sort of thing in the first place. Just like I wouldn't care if hyperspeed was in the game, but I think the people *****ing about it being cheating are idiots. Or I wouldn't care if there was an unlock all cheat in the game, but I think people complaining that everything isn't available out of the box are just Entitlement Whores, and so forth.

It's a trivial complaint about a design decision because this decision does not impact your ability to play a game but people are raising up a huge stink because they don't get all of the fluff they feel entitled to because they are capable of playing the game at a most basic level.

The fact that it wouldn't "ruin the game" for me if the cap was removed/altered does not mean I don't think it's a dumb complaint, just like there are no stupid questions, but that doesn't mean I won't roll my eyes at you if you ask a question.

The people asking for this to be changed because it "doesn't affect anything" are making less persuasive arguments to me (party game, not everyone can play it well, not everybody has rhythm -- I can't play DDR, so I don't; I don't expect them to tailor DDR to suit me) than the people who think a staggered progression based on play ability is a perfectly reasonable thing to have in a campaign or career mode style game mode, which is fairly standard in the industry and in gaming history, and is also the design Harmonix offered.

There has yet to have been a single argument that would sway me that this change would be a 'better' implementation that what is currently in place, because I have what I consider a fairly traditional viewpoint on difficulty and game features.

[Maggot_Brain]

You're outnumbered 3 to 1 among those with an opinion. We'll see if HMX listens.

[espher]

You're outnumbered 3 to 1 among those with an opinion. We'll see if HMX listens.

As I said before, I'm outnumbered 3-1 on a single forum where the people that have a complaint about this feature will likely come register and cry about it and the people who are perfectly happy with this feature and not regular posters will likely not come register and praise it.

You always get the loud minority instead of the quiet majority. I doubt everyone that bought the game and had no hardware problems came on the forums to praise the hardware, or everyone who is happy with the song list came to fill up the Ultimate Songlist board with THIS SOUNDTRACK IS GREAT! posts, unlike all of the crowd posting about OMG MOAR METAL WTF GH3 RULZ!!!!!!11, or WHERE IS TEH LINKIN PARKS?????/??/// or OMG NO TOOOOL!!!!11111 threads.

This forum was fairly quiet before the game released, and since then most of the new posters have been those with gripes. As with any forum, you're going to see a larger number of unhappy people than happy people, because the happy people don't have a reason to fly onto their computers and register and post.

So this 3-1 crap? Not holding much water with me.

Then again, I'm not unhappy with everything like some people seem to be.

Now if you'll excuse me, I need to finish watching my team lose another hockey game, so don't post too much. :p

[Maggot_Brain]

This seems like an important issue to you. What's the big deal to you if lesser skilled casual players want to feel like they're accomplishing something?

Did I mention it's the best game ever? Sure ain't perfect, though. I'd like to help make it more user friendly. Caps, having persistend BANDS instead of LEADERS and various other nits to pick. I won't even mention the Strat fiasco.

[Grey_Street]

I think the cap should be removed. The main draw to BWT was the fact that the game could keep going forever and keep progressing. With constantly seeing "0 fans gained" it really doesn't feel like like you are successful or actually moving forward. What does removing the cap hurt? It's like if you could play the final level of Halo when playing on Normal mode...make it so you can unlock some extra guitars or clothes, but not stop gaining fans...that is just lame.

[MJDoja]

This seems like an important issue to you. What's the big deal to you if lesser skilled casual players want to feel like they're accomplishing something?

Did I mention it's the best game ever? Sure ain't perfect, though. I'd like to help make it more user friendly. Caps, having persistend BANDS instead of LEADERS and various other nits to pick. I won't even mention the Strat fiasco.

you just dont get it, please dont make this guy explain the same thing over again.

[Maggot_Brain]

you just dont get it, please dont make this guy explain the same thing over again.

Whatever..

[espher]

This seems like an important issue to you. What's the big deal to you if lesser skilled casual players want to feel like they're accomplishing something?

What's the big deal if the number doesn't keep climbing? Is the revenue stream and rating system not enough to give you a sense of accomplishment? Is making the Hall of Fame, or seeing the credits roll, or completing the Endless Setlist not enough to indicate you've accomplished something?

I mean, if checkmarks beside the setlists are supposed to be enough to satisfy the hardcore, are the casual really that much harder to satisfy?

Are we really dealing with a generation of players that has been coddled that much? Frankly, I'm amazed Harmonix was allowed to use the colour red to grade poor performance.

It's not really that it's important to me insomuch as my personality just clashes with this sort of viewpoint. :)

[Fatal1ty_Reaper]

I agree, I personally play on Expert, but aside from one of my friends that I hardly ever see, I know no one else who plays on Expert... This cap should be removed. EDIT: However I agree that the 1 million fans achievement should be more like "Reach One Million Fans on Expert" or something, or else it makes getting the achievement very easy, or else drastically reduce the number of fans gained if players are not playing on expert.

[Maggot_Brain]

I heard a puppy is killed every time someone doesn't play on expert.

[espher]

I heard a puppy is killed every time someone doesn't play on expert.

I've got to say, you're fairly mediocre at trolling. If I wasn't trying to get my point across to multiple people, I wouldn't keep feeding you.

Still, I commend your ability to completely ignore viewpoints in order to goad others on. You'd make a great replacement for Tucker Carlson.

[Maggot_Brain]

Still, I commend your ability to completely ignore viewpoints in order to goad others on. You'd make a great replacement for Tucker Carlson.

Tucker Carlson? You, sir, have gone too far!!

[espher]

Tucker Carlson? You, sir, have gone too far!!

Well, you could be the other guy. I don't even remember his name.

[Maggot_Brain]

I'm more the Bill Maher type.

[espher]

I'm more the Bill Maher type.

My friends call me the Canadian Colbert and I'm not sure whether to take it as an insult or a compliment. ;_;

[Maggot_Brain]

Rock Band brings different people together to rock out. It makes for a better world! (Tito, get me a hanky!)

[NattyLight]

Most games reward players who are better than others. You're not missing any of the core gameplay or any of the features if you can't play on expert; however, it would be horrible if companies stopped giving rewards to expert players.

The greatest games of all time (Super Mario Bros., Super Mario World, Final Fantasy VII, Grand Theft Auto 3, The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time) ALL rewarded players who were great at the game. If you sucked at it, you could still beat the game. You just didn't get all of the extras. Even successful party games (DDR, Karaoke Revolution, Mario Party) rewarded really great players. You could play all of them fine if you weren't an expert but you jsut didn't get the little extras.

What's the difference with this game? You can still complete BWT on medium. You lose out on only a few venues. You can do everything else. If those things mean that much to you, how about you stop complaining and spend your time EARNING them.

What's with this sense of entitlement? Just play the game and have a good time. Leave the perks to people that are better than you.

[KeyzerSoze1979]

Hopefully HMX will shed some light on this in the days to come.

[Imakida]

Most games reward players who are better than others. You're not missing any of the core gameplay or any of the features if you can't play on expert; however, it would be horrible if companies stopped giving rewards to expert players.

The greatest games of all time (Super Mario Bros., Super Mario World, Final Fantasy VII, Grand Theft Auto 3, The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time) ALL rewarded players who were great at the game. If you sucked at it, you could still beat the game. You just didn't get all of the extras. Even successful party games (DDR, Karaoke Revolution, Mario Party) rewarded really great players. You could play all of them fine if you weren't an expert but you jsut didn't get the little extras.

What's the difference with this game? You can still complete BWT on medium. You lose out on only a few venues. You can do everything else. If those things mean that much to you, how about you stop complaining and spend your time EARNING them.

What's with this sense of entitlement? Just play the game and have a good time. Leave the perks to people that are better than you.

+1

1)Some are saying "this is a party game"... yes.. but firstly, its a Rock Band game, that wanna make you feel you are on a real band. In a real band, you need to progress, learn...

2)The REWARD for playing a lot and getting good and beating the hardest mode. It should motivate you to practice more and get better. It gives a sense of accomplishment to have a reward after hours and hours of playing.

3)In older games, if you weren't enough good, you just didn't make it to the end and that was just too bad (remember bubble bubble, etc.).

4)Yeah that freakin' sense of entitlement. I think that it is a problem of today society.. too much borderline people.. Add to this the I WANT IT NOW and I DON'T WANT A MAKE ANY EFFORT.

5) Stop complaning, you have access to all the songs anyway. YOu want to get all the venues and a lot of fans, get serious like a real band and practice.

[smudgeyjoe]

I am 60 and my son is 30. We loved Guitar Hero, and we currently are greatly enamored with Rock Band. The trouble is, neither of us is ever going to be good enough to leave MEDIUM. I am not even sure I want to, since I notice that when I watch people playing on expert, the focus is on survival, not on enjoying the music. I am not clamoring to allow us to have our own leaderboards, though that would be cool. What I am clamoring for is that the entirety of the game be available to everyone, regardless of their skill levels. There is no reason that an old fogey like me should be unable to get to everything because I am unable to strum fast enough. I will probably have carpal tunnel by next week from all my current strumming, so I may have to go back to EASY. Please reward those amazing people who can play on HARD and EXPERT, but don't neglect to realize that many of your greatest fans are playing at a lower level, and should be equally deserving.

[KeyzerSoze1979]

I am 60 and my son is 30. We loved Guitar Hero, and we currently are greatly enamored with Rock Band. The trouble is, neither of us is ever going to be good enough to leave MEDIUM. I am not even sure I want to, since I notice that when I watch people playing on expert, the focus is on survival, not on enjoying the music. I am not clamoring to allow us to have our own leaderboards, though that would be cool. What I am clamoring for is that the entirety of the game be available to everyone, regardless of their skill levels. There is no reason that an old fogey like me should be unable to get to everything because I am unable to strum fast enough. I will probably have carpal tunnel by next week from all my current strumming, so I may have to go back to EASY. Please reward those amazing people who can play on HARD and EXPERT, but don't neglect to realize that many of your greatest fans are playing at a lower level, and should be equally deserving.



Quoted for truth, this is what this whole discussion is about.

[NattyLight]

I am not even sure I want to, since I notice that when I watch people playing on expert, the focus is on survival, not on enjoying the music.


What I am clamoring for is that the entirety of the game be available to everyone, regardless of their skill levels.


Please reward those amazing people who can play on HARD and EXPERT, but don't neglect to realize that many of your greatest fans are playing at a lower level, and should be equally deserving.

1. Everybody that I know plays on harder levels because it's more fun to play something that's not so easy. It's like ho in sports, I don't play pick up games with middle schoolers. I could dominate them but it wouldn't be much fun. Also, there is more immersion if I'm playing every note instead of some weird ratio.

2. You can't reward people for playing on harder modes AND give people the entirety of the game just for turning it on. The things that you are missing out from by playing medium are in no way crucial to the game. You still get all of the songs and you can still beat the game in BWT.

ou might as well complain about not being able to afford every piece of clothing or getting the god guitar in GH.

Since people don't seem to udnerstand:

YOU CAN BEAT BAND WORLD TOUR ON MEDIUM. THE FAN CAP ONLY STOPS YOU FROM GETTING A COUPLE OF VENUES.

YOU CAN BEAT BAND WORLD TOUR ON MEDIUM. THE FAN CAP ONLY STOPS YOU FROM GETTING A COUPLE OF VENUES.

YOU CAN BEAT BAND WORLD TOUR ON MEDIUM. THE FAN CAP ONLY STOPS YOU FROM GETTING A COUPLE OF VENUES.

[KeyzerSoze1979]

1. Everybody that I know plays on harder levels because it's more fun to play something that's not so easy. It's like ho in sports, I don't play pick up games with middle schoolers. I could dominate them but it wouldn't be much fun. Also, there is more immersion if I'm playing every note instead of some weird ratio.

2. You can't reward people for playing on harder modes AND give people the entirety of the game just for turning it on. The things that you are missing out from by playing medium are in no way crucial to the game. You still get all of the songs and you can still beat the game in BWT.

ou might as well complain about not being able to afford every piece of clothing or getting the god guitar in GH.

Since people don't seem to udnerstand:

YOU CAN BEAT BAND WORLD TOUR ON MEDIUM. THE FAN CAP ONLY STOPS YOU FROM GETTING A COUPLE OF VENUES.

YOU CAN BEAT BAND WORLD TOUR ON MEDIUM. THE FAN CAP ONLY STOPS YOU FROM GETTING A COUPLE OF VENUES.

YOU CAN BEAT BAND WORLD TOUR ON MEDIUM. THE FAN CAP ONLY STOPS YOU FROM GETTING A COUPLE OF VENUES.


People realize you can beat it on medium but it should be open to people of ALL skill levels, do yo uneed me to repeat that 3 times? Nobody is asking for a hand out, they want to be able to enjoy this game with their peers who may not be able to play on those upper tiers or even medium. They dont have to remove the fan cap totally. There are several ways they could go about it and still let people have their bragging rights on the leaderboards.

[espher]

People realize you can beat it on medium but it should be open to people of ALL skill levels, do yo uneed me to repeat that 3 times? Nobody is asking for a hand out, they want to be able to enjoy this game with their peers who may not be able to play on those upper tiers or even medium. They dont have to remove the fan cap totally. There are several ways they could go about it and still let people have their bragging rights on the leaderboards.

Honestly, if you're playing the mode long enough to beat it, you've been playing the game long enough to make the move up to medium.

The Hall of Fame setlist is what, 40 minutes in and of itself?

[Badosh]

ill never be able to get anywhere
cause my mom dad and brother all play on easy while i play on hard, but theyre all not that good, so i doubt theyre ever try medium

[NattyLight]

People realize you can beat it on medium but it should be open to people of ALL skill levels, do yo uneed me to repeat that 3 times? Nobody is asking for a hand out, they want to be able to enjoy this game with their peers who may not be able to play on those upper tiers or even medium. They dont have to remove the fan cap totally. There are several ways they could go about it and still let people have their bragging rights on the leaderboards.

Yes you are asking for a handout. Medium is the standard difficulty level for all games. How can you even possibly play through the HOURS worth of game on easy, and not be able to play a few songs on medium? Even so, play on quickplay. If you can't play the game on medium after a few weeks, maybe this isn't your game. If you're under 10 or over 60, get a game geared for your age group

[KeyzerSoze1979]

Yes you are asking for a handout. Medium is the standard difficulty level for all games. How can you even possibly play through the HOURS worth of game on easy, and not be able to play a few songs on medium? Even so, play on quickplay. If you can't play the game on medium after a few weeks, maybe this isn't your game. If you're under 10 or over 60, get a game geared for your age group


Its not myself im worried about, its my friends and family. I do just fine on medium but they struggle and some of them are flat out unable to do it. Once again, the BWT mode is what people want to play, not quickplay. I guess for some people like yourself its impossible to think about others.

[NattyLight]

Its not myself im worried about, its my friends and family. I do just fine on medium but they struggle and some of them are flat out unable to do it. Once again, the BWT mode is what people want to play, not quickplay. I guess for some people like yourself its impossible to think about others.

No, I'm just being realistic. You haven't even had this game a full week, yet you are complaining that people won't be good enough to play the game on medium after some practice. The people that don't care enough to use the game a while before they complain that they can't learn it don't seem like the type of people that are worried about beating games.

If you really can't get above easy after a few weeks , you are not the target audience. While this is a party game, it isn't targeted at the wii audience. You forget that DDR is a party game but it's still difficult.

[KeyzerSoze1979]

No, I'm just being realistic. You haven't even had this game a full week, yet you are complaining that people won't be good enough to play the game on medium after some practice. The people that don't care enough to use the game a while before they complain that they can't learn it don't seem like the type of people that are worried about beating games.

If you really can't get above easy after a few weeks , you are not the target audience. While this is a party game, it isn't targeted at the wii audience. You forget that DDR is a party game but it's still difficult.



I will still be playing the game for months to come, cant say the same for my family and some of my friends. They have these things called "jobs" and "kids", maybe some day you will understand. And we arent talking about the Wii or DDR here, this is a simple plea for the game to be more accessible to friends and family who enjoy this game but cant devote the time to play or practice it every day. The voting % tends to disagree with you and while thats not anywhere near the total number of people who are playing the game, it does give an indication of something the general public is in need of.

[Bakkster]

I will still be playing the game for months to come, cant say the same for my family and some of my friends. They have these things called "jobs" and "kids", maybe some day you will understand. And we arent talking about the Wii or DDR here, this is a simple plea for the game to be more accessible to friends and family who enjoy this game but cant devote the time to play or practice it every day.

If they aren't putting a lot of time into the game, what's the benefit of playing BWT? Are they really going to miss out because they can't get past playing in bars? Are they even going to put the time in to make it to the fan cap? It's a campaign mode for a reason, and that reason is not to be super accessible to everyone who can't hold a beat or carry a tune in a bucket.


The voting % tends to disagree with you and while thats not anywhere near the total number of people who are playing the game, it does give an indication of something the general public is in need of.

Remember that a lot of the people on these boards signed up for the sole purpose to complain about something. Many of the veteran members of the board have been scared away by this, so the voting is even more lopsided. Not saying there aren't a lot of people who feel this way, just that it's nowhere near a 3:1 ratio.

[KeyzerSoze1979]

If they aren't putting a lot of time into the game, what's the benefit of playing BWT? Are they really going to miss out because they can't get past playing in bars? Are they even going to put the time in to make it to the fan cap? It's a campaign mode for a reason, and that reason is not to be super accessible to everyone who can't hold a beat or carry a tune in a bucket.



Remember that a lot of the people on these boards signed up for the sole purpose to complain about something. Many of the veteran members of the board have been scared away by this, so the voting is even more lopsided. Not saying there aren't a lot of people who feel this way, just that it's nowhere near a 3:1 ratio.

The fact that so many people voted does stand for something no matter how much some veteran members want to deny it. The people who dont have the time to devote or the skill to advance shouldnt be penalized to the degree it is currently at, thats all people are trying to say.

[seafisch]

Okay, I read all 12+ pages of this thread, and I did not see one good argument for why people who play medium should be capped at 600,000 fans. If the people with the time and/or skill to play at hard/expert really feel that removing the cap would be coddling the "casual" players or diluting the achievement/dedication of the "hardcore" players, then just allow them to earn fans at a slower pace.

One, it will give the casual players a sense that they're still advancing, just not as quickly as the players who play on hard/expert, and they will still eventually be able to unlock all the venues.

Two, it will prevent advanced players from "farming" fans on a lower difficulty, and reassure the guys with the 55 million fans that their #1 spot on the leaderboard won't lose its value.

For the people without the time and/or skill to progress past medium, the "You earned 0 fans" might just as well have been replaced with a giant hand giving the "L" for loser sign.

And saying quickplay is an alternative is a joke. HMX put in this great system for creating band logos, characters, and unlocking stuff, and you want people - even people who get together for just a few hours once a month - to ignore all that and play with random characters, many of which look ugly and stupid, and not earn fans, cash, stars, and other unlockables?

[Aybara]

BWT was touted as THE mode for this game. The one everyone would want to play.

Yet the hardcore continually say, "Go play another mode, BWT is only for us hardcore experts".

Games have DIFFICULTY settings for a reason. Why is it so hard to figure that out? How many big name games recently have come out with multiple difficulty settings that allow you to do everything on pretty much every setting? I can name two of them that came out this month. The people who WANT a challenge will beef up the difficulty, THAT is what the setting is for.

All I see in response are the people who want to 'feel special' for completing the game on Expert and unlocking everything. They want to keep that feeling away from those who aren't good enough to play on Expert. That in itself makes me sad.

It simply amazes me how many people simply refuse to see the other side of the coin. All they can do is point out other games that help them make their cases. But if you look at games coming out nowadays, they have difficulty sliders to allow the not-so-good players to experience the whole thing.

Basically what it boils down to is that the hardcore want to be rewarded for their efforts, and the casuals want to be rewarded also. But the hardcore don't want to share. NO ONE has made an argument otherwise.

Plus, catering to the 'lowest common denominator' (as has been mentioned several times) would only be valid if the game came with ONLY an easy setting.

Removing the cap doesn't hurt the hardcore in anyway (except MAYBE the leaderboards), but I have suggested ways around that also. It only helps keep the people who aren't as good as the Experts to keep playing.

I can only imagine the outrage if to make Expert mode harder you could only gain a MAXIMUM of 1,000 fans per set, and the easy people could gain 10,000 or more.

If the shoe was on the other foot, the hardcore would be just as livid.

(Edited for spelling)

[NitroHawkK3]

good point. If the people that play on expert want to be rewarded how about they get special instruments or clothing or somthing that doesnt leave some of the game locked away from the easy's and medium's that play.

[Eastern-Eagles]

YES, please remove the fan cap. My friend is handicapped and can't physically play on any difficulty higher than medium so our band will eventually get stuck with no way to progress unless he stops playing. Obviously, that's not fair at all.

[NitroHawkK3]

Remember that a lot of the people on these boards signed up for the sole purpose to complain about something. Many of the veteran members of the board have been scared away by this, so the voting is even more lopsided. Not saying there aren't a lot of people who feel this way, just that it's nowhere near a 3:1 ratio.

The "vetran" players dont even make up half of the people that play this game.

[Mr Suplex]

I registered on these forums just to post in this thread.

I think the fan cap is a HUGE mistake on Harmonix's part, and has significantly reduced the amount of fun this game can be with a group. I am all for Hard and Expert getting MORE fans per show, etc. But don't cap the fans for Medium. There really is no point in doing this other than to be elitist. Let everyone have fun with this game. This isn't 1985, and games are supposed to be accessible to everyone. Just look at the success of the Wii...

[Bakkster]

The fact that so many people voted does stand for something no matter how much some veteran members want to deny it. The people who dont have the time to devote or the skill to advance shouldnt be penalized to the degree it is currently at, thats all people are trying to say.

If I take a poll of people leaving the Democratic National Convention about their opinion of a Republican, do you think I'm going to get a reliable answer? Sample size is secondary to how representative the sample set is. I also admitted that a lot of people felt this way, I only debated the 3:1 ratio.

I still don't see a game-breaking penalty. When I play with my relatives, I plan to play quick play. If you are playing on easy, is it THAT big of a deal that you can only play bars? Face it: games are a challenge, and this is no more of a challenge than GH was. Medium has always been the way to unlock, why change it now?

[Mr Suplex]

Currently, though, there is a penalty for playing on anything less than Expert. That is simply wrong...

[Aybara]

Medium has always been the way to unlock, why change it now?

I think that is the point that plenty are trying to make.

[dvoecks30]

Remove the fan cap! I have never been able to play on hard since guitar hero 1. Just lower the rewarded number of fans if you play on an easier level. Give each player a number of fans based on their chosen level. That way the band gets credit if some performers are better than others, not just computed from the lowest member.

Great game though! Can't tell you how much fun it was playing over the weekend with a lot of people over. Thanks!

[jmiscavish]

Yeah, stupid old people. How dare you even try our game!!!!!

Graduated fan system. There's no reason for a fan cap at all. Just let expert people get more fans than anybody else. That way it's fair for everyone...

[NattyLight]

I will still be playing the game for months to come, cant say the same for my family and some of my friends. They have these things called "jobs" and "kids", maybe some day you will understand. And we arent talking about the Wii or DDR here, this is a simple plea for the game to be more accessible to friends and family who enjoy this game but cant devote the time to play or practice it every day. The voting % tends to disagree with you and while thats not anywhere near the total number of people who are playing the game, it does give an indication of something the general public is in need of.

They have enough time to play the whole campaign mode but not enough time to get good at it? Which is it, can they play a lot or not? If they can play a lot, they can go to medium. If they don't play a lot, they aren't going to be hampered by missing out on 2 venues. They probably won't even notice.





Games have DIFFICULTY settings for a reason. Why is it so hard to figure that out? How many big name games recently have come out with multiple difficulty settings that allow you to do everything on pretty much every setting? I can name two of them that came out this month.

(Edited for spelling)

Bull. Name them.

[Aybara]

Bull. Name them.

Assassin's Creed has a difficulty setting. Impacts combat efficiency of your enemies and how quickly you are exposed. Ranged from Easy to Hard settings.

Mass Effect has a difficulty setting. Also impacts the difficulty of combat and strength of your opponents. Also has multiple settings.

If you want more...

Oblivion has a difficulty slider, Two Worlds has one. I could continue to go on.

Playing those games on Normal or Hard did not impact my gameplay if someone decided they wanted to breeze through on the easiest setting, and on Oblivion you could get ALL the achievements playing through on the easiest settings.

[seafisch]

If your friends and family's self esteem is tied up in a video game that they rarely play, not getting 20,000,000 fans in BWT mode is the least of their concerns.

If the hard/expert players' self esteem is tied up in a video game that they obsessively play, then casual players not having a fan cap is the least of their concerns.

[NattyLight]

Assassin's Creed has a difficulty setting. Impacts combat efficiency of your enemies and how quickly you are exposed. Ranged from Easy to Hard settings.

Mass Effect has a difficulty setting. Also impacts the difficulty of combat and strength of your opponents. Also has multiple settings.

If you want more...

Oblivion has a difficulty slider, Two Worlds has one. I could continue to go on.

Playing those games on Normal or Hard did not impact my gameplay if someone decided they wanted to breeze through on the easiest setting, and on Oblivion you could get ALL the achievements playing through on the easiest settings.

It didn't affect the gameplay (just like it doesn't in BWT) but those games definitely rewarded you for doing harder things. There were little things that you might not care about. You know, much like getting those extra 2 venues in rock band.

Now like I said, name a game where you can unlock EVERYTHING with it one say.

[Aybara]

It didn't affect the gameplay (just like it doesn't in BWT) but those games definitely rewarded you for doing harder things.

Now like I said, name a game where you can unlock EVERYTHING with it one say.

None of those games gave you ANYTHING special for playing at a higher difficulty (maybe an achievement or two). You did not get anything special in-game for playing at a harder level.

I think you are seriously missing the point there.

You can play Oblivion, with the difficulty slider set to 0. You will unlock everything. You will experience everything. You will get all the same weapons, armor, and items.

In Assassin's Creed, you will see everything, unlock everything, and experience everything with the game set to east.

Same with Mass Effect, the difficulty slider does not lock out anything for those who chose not to increase the difficulty.

So again, there are three games listed above where you can unlock everything playing at the easiest setting possible.

[Aybara]

It didn't affect the gameplay (just like it doesn't in BWT) but those games definitely rewarded you for doing harder things. There were little things that you might not care about. You know, much like getting those extra 2 venues in rock band.

Now like I said, name a game where you can unlock EVERYTHING with it one say.

Nice edit by the way, good thing I quoted it as it was originally. Care to name what rewards you received in those games for playing at a harder difficulty?

On the ones I named I played on Normal first (to get a feel for them) and then increase the difficulty if I find it too easy. I do not recall anything different except maybe getting an achievement you can only get at a higher setting.

But again, how does removing the fan cap impact YOU? Other than giving you the right to brag that you can do it?

[KeyzerSoze1979]

Hopefully HMX will respond to this Monday or whenever they get back, its obviously an important issue to many.

[Kylekillgannon]

Hopefully HMX will respond to this Monday or whenever they get back, its obviously an important issue to many.

It is to me, if FoB can get millions of fans and I'd consider them a medium level band then my band should too!

[Hanika]

Ok, I just registered at this site, I was directed here by a thread on the Xbox Forums.

This FAN CAP thing is ridiculous.
Such an amazing party game, been having a blast with my wife and kids. Until we hit the Fan Cap and realized I'd have to kick my WIFE and 8 Year Old outta the band in order to continue.

Ridiculous.:mad:

[Sp 027]

Here's a fact. You can't beat a game unless you're good at it. It's like wanting the legendary campaign achievement taken off because you aren't good enough to beat it.

My family sucks and can't play past medium either, but you don't see me complaining about this. We just play band quickplay and eventually they'll be good enough.

[Aybara]

Here's a fact. You can't beat a game unless you're good at it. It's like wanting the legendary campaign achievement taken off because you aren't good enough to beat it.

Not even close.

Am I mad because I can't get the Legendary achievement on Halo 3? Nope.

Harmonix could have easily set it to have the achievement be "Gain 1,000,000 fans in BWT mode on Expert" and then it would satisfy all those hardcore players.

Then the players on lower difficulty levels could continue to gain fans and they would continue to play.

They have achievements for completing in Medium and Hard modes, why cap the 'bread-and-butter' mode of the game to Experts only?

[Kylekillgannon]

Here's a fact. You can't beat a game unless you're good at it. It's like wanting the legendary campaign achievement taken off because you aren't good enough to beat it.

This game has ONE campaign not four with each on a different difficulty, one, which forces you to bump up the skill level so you can complete it

[Sp 027]

You can still play all the songs in medium and enjoy the nice setlists and such. You just cant get to the last venues with out amping up you and your band's skills.

[Obscurity]

They won't make the game so easy that you can breeze through it in one night. Get better and stop complaining.

[SlipKnot Saint]

They won't make the game so easy that you can breeze through it in one night. Get better and stop complaining.

well said!

[Sp 027]

They won't make the game so easy that you can breeze through it in one night. Get better and stop complaining.

Amen
<ten char>

[Aybara]

So why lock it out at all?

People have suggested alternatives to the cap that would alleviate all of the issues. But it is always met with the same "We're better than you, and we need a way to show it."

If it is that important, the million fan achievement should've been to get the million fans on Expert. Then you could REALLY brag.

Band World Tour was the most widely touted of the game modes. The ability to gain fans, play venues, etc, etc.

That sounded cool on paper, but when confronted with the cap, you stop gaining fans. Seems like a bad design decision to try and keep people playing. There are MANY reasons some people can't/won't go up in difficulty. Ranging from skill level, innate ability, and physical limitations.

There is absolutely no reason to limit those who are playing on Medium. That is why there are multiple skill levels.

I have no desire to flex my ego on Leaderboards or anything. I enjoy playing, but when you stop gaining fans, it does subtly change the experience of the game.

[Aybara]

They won't make the game so easy that you can breeze through it in one night. Get better and stop complaining.

Obviously that is not true. Especially with a band out there with over 30 million fans already. Seems to me they breezed through it fairly quickly and are now just working on padding their leads.

No one wants to 'breeze through it'. The rest of us just want the game to continue at the difficulty we have chosen. The only people hurt by removing the fan cap are the elitists who need to flaunt their achievements.

[Sp 027]

We knew about the cap long before the game came out. So why are you complaining now?

[Ellis8513]

Personally, I want the fan cap removed so I can play BWT with some less coordinated friends (to say the least), they're the people I play with and if I can't lower the difficulty setting I'll never be able to play BWT with them.

[Aybara]

We knew about the cap long before the game came out. So why are you complaining now?

I did not. Obviously I missed that particular review or hands on report.

As did many others based on the posts in here.

Care to quote sources?

[Grey_Street]

I have yet to see a good argument for keeping the cap. The only thing being said is "just get better at the game". If you have no reason that removing the cap will hurt you then why not let others enjoy the game more by removing it.

I didn't have to raise the difficulty level to legendary to beat Halo my first time through...I raised it there after I beat it so I could have a better challenge. It should be a choice to raise the difficulty, not a necessity to finish the game and continue progress. The majority of people that play this game are not people visiting this forum, and definately not people that can beat the game on expert.

My friend and his roomate hit the cap and had no idea what they were doing wrong until I told them about the cap. The had stopped playing out of frustration...is this what you want to happen? They weren't buying DLC because they were stuck and wanted to unlock everything before they added content.

[shadus]

I'd like to push to get the fan caps removed from Medium and Hard.

Make it so that those who don't want to go Expert do not have to. Give the average player the ability to get all the venues and such.

I'd support it for hard.

I'd also rather just see them numerically figure out your 'average' play level...

eg:
easy - 1, medium - 2, hard - 3, expert - 4
guitar - 3
drum - 4
sing - 4
bass - 2
Total- 13/4 = 3 effective. Hard is cap used instead of single lowest person.

[Bakkster]

I'd support it for hard.

I'd also rather just see them numerically figure out your 'average' play level...

eg:
easy - 1, medium - 2, hard - 3, expert - 4
guitar - 3
drum - 4
sing - 4
bass - 2
Total- 13/4 = 3 effective. Hard is cap used instead of single lowest person.

But bands don't work that way. If the singer sucks, it doesn't matter if the rest of the band is awesome. The band still sucks.

But even sucky bands can get into the Hall of Fame.

[seafisch]

They won't make the game so easy that you can breeze through it in one night. Get better and stop complaining.

Not "well said", not "amen", and that's not what people are asking for. They just want to be able to continue to gain fans and unlock all the venues. Is that really such an unreasonable request? Seriously? Would it really offend the people that play hard/expert that much?

[Frederf]

http://www.squick.org/ffa/bin/IsShouldBe.gif

Figures not 100&#37; accurate, curves are illustrative on concept only. In fact the tail end of the curves should be much lower than shown.

[shadus]

But bands don't work that way. If the singer sucks, it doesn't matter if the rest of the band is awesome. The band still sucks.

But even sucky bands can get into the Hall of Fame.


You're right... but this isn't about having a real band, otherwise we'd all pony up for real equipment and shlep around a bit. It's about having fun for a few hours and this is one way to increase the fun without damaging the long term game.

[Melkite445]

This is the best thread ever, number one...

Watch HMX come on here and lock it down and delete it forever..

So, gaining less fans but STILL getting some in ALL modes (except easy) seems to be far and away the general consensus..


PS There's still only 100 bands that have 1 Million plus fans, so much for all the *hardcore* out there!!


This does need to get fixed tho, otherwise I think a lot of people are going to be highly discouraged.

[Eman311]

Yea it sucks I can't get to a million fans because I can't do expert drums (only hard).

[HPLabonte]

BWT is all about strategy. What I did was I figured out what songs I can do w/ friends or myself on guitar/bass/vocals on Hard/Expert, and that helped us reach 400,000+ Fans, and the number is still rising. Just gained 48,000 for Rawk-Aid by myself on bass/vocals doing Maps, Fortunate Son, Blitzkreig Bop, Should I Stay or Should I Go, and Paranoid. Custom Setlists are wonderful.

[stickshady2007]

We knew about the cap long before the game came out. So why are you complaining now?

Who knew this crap I went on many message boards read many a magazine who knew this show me a site or article prior to release that stated this then I'll be satisfied with your statement.?

[jmiscavish]

For the umpteenth time, graduated fan system based on performance and difficulty. That way everyone can play on whatever difficulty they want and still get fans.

Good people would get more fans faster, but people who are stuck at medium could still garner some enjoyment from BWT.

[monlienNH3]

http://www.squick.org/ffa/bin/IsShouldBe.gif

Figures not 100% accurate, curves are illustrative on concept only. In fact the tail end of the curves should be much lower than shown.

That's pretty close to what I was thinking. To me, it wouldn't matter if you only gain 5 fans per easy show and 10 per medium. Just let lower level players earn some fans for playing. It's a psychological thing that takes away from the experience. With some kind of curve, the "fans per band" leaderboard would stay in tact since it would take an infinite longer amount of time for a medium band to reach the amount of fans an expert band could earn.

This really, really should be fixed. I think Harmonix underestimates the importance of the fan stat to the player. Perhaps because they've never had to play with medium players who just cannot make the jump to hard. Fortunately, I can sing and play some songs on hard; however, I have yet to even pass a song on expert vocals... so my cap will more than likely be the hard cap. But that won't stop me from trying to improve to expert vocals.

Final note: I'd have no problem if the Hall of Fame were locked to only hard or expert players, but in real life, even the crappiest of bands can gain fans if they play enough shows.

Loving the game though.

[BigWeather]

Posting my support for removing a hard cap. Make fans come much slower at medium and hard, fine, but not a hard cap. Change the 1,000,000 fans achievement to be expert only to satisfy the hardcore, but don't lock out venues to medium and hard players.

[KeyzerSoze1979]

The BWT mode doesnt have an end, it is according to HMX a persistant mode. So why not let everyone play the whole mode?

[Frederf]

If you manage to gain enough fans at a trickle rate to get to 1,000,000 fans while playing on easy... I would not feel bad at all about handing out an XBox achievement for that.

[Bobby_Jo]

The fan cap is very disappointing. I will never be better than an "easy" player on guitar -- I have mild carpal tunnel syndrome, and strumming and shifting on the keys for me is difficult. I still enjoy playing, but the reality is, I suck at it. I will never get better -- I've tried over the past year with all the various GH incarnations, and it just is not going to happen for physical reasons.

When we bought Rock Band, my husband and I started a band that had a singer (me), a drummer (my husband) and a guitar player (also me). I would usually start out guitar playing for a few songs, until it got too painful for me, and then switch over to singing. With the fan cap, I can no longer play at easy level, and so I'm basically stuck at singing all the time. That's a bit of a bummer -- I enjoyed doing the guitar stuff for a few songs, and now I can't, unless we want to completely forgo getting fans.

This is supposed to be a "fun" game; why shouldn't we be able to control how difficult we want it to be, and yet still get some fans? Making it so that you can't get fans anymore at a certain level stinks. I'm quite happy to "improve" myself on individual songs by trying to get 5 stars within the level that I DO play at...I don't need Harmonix to force me to up my overall difficulty on everything.

[espher]

good point. If the people that play on expert want to be rewarded how about they get special instruments or clothing or somthing that doesnt leave some of the game locked away from the easy's and medium's that play.

"Let's give people who play on Hard/Expert bonus unlockables instead of giving them bonus unlockables."

Yeah, that's a great point.

There is nothing preventing you from continuing to play the game on Easy, or continuing to play and finish the game on Medium, the same as you would see with Guitar Hero I/II. All you're being locked out of is optional content, the same as you would be with Guitar Hero I/II.

I'd honestly bet money that if the venues weren't listed and instead were only listed once you hit a threshold as 'secret' venues there'd be less of a fuss about it. It's an in-flavour way of representing optional content.

The game hasn't even been out a week and people are acting as if someone shot their favourite dog and they're no longer able to spend time with and have fun with it, except the dog hasn't been shot and it's still there wagging its tail. If you've been playing BWT long enough to hit the fan cap, you've been playing it more than my friends and family have, and some of them are willing to face the challenge of moving to a higher difficulty instead of sitting in their comfort zone.

The only reason this is impacting your ability to play the game is because you're letting it impact your ability to play the game. It's a freaking number, people.

I for one am depressed when I play Guitar Hero I and my overall score stops going up because I already beat a song, even if I play it ten times more. It's not fair that it's adding 0 points to my total because I failed to improve upon my previous play results.

[Aybara]

So let's just remove fans from all levels and remove the fan achievement as a whole.

If it is just a number, then let's take it away.

People have repeatedly pointed out reasons they can't/won't move out of their comfort zone. The game has a difficulty setting for a reason.

Those who want to excel will crank up the difficulty, those who want to play and enjoy won't.

Why put a cap in it simply to force people to go to a higher level? If the venues were not visible, some people would be upset that for a persistent type mode that they pretty much come to a stop on one aspect.

Why are people so vehemently opposed to removing the fan cap? 15+ pages and not a single person can explain why they are so vehemently opposed to it.

[espher]

So let's just remove fans from all levels and remove the fan achievement as a whole.

If it is just a number, then let's take it away.

Sounds fine to me. Let's remove the fan cap and set the venues to be difficulty-based unlocks.


People have repeatedly pointed out reasons they can't/won't move out of their comfort zone. The game has a difficulty setting for a reason.

Those who want to excel will crank up the difficulty, those who want to play and enjoy won't.

Why put a cap in it simply to force people to go to a higher level? If the venues were not visible, some people would be upset that for a persistent type mode that they pretty much come to a stop on one aspect.

Why are people so vehemently opposed to removing the fan cap? 15+ pages and not a single person can explain why they are so vehemently opposed to it.

It's a campaign mode. Generally speaking, when you play a campaign mode for a game, you're expected to pick up new ability so that by the time you finish the campaign you're usually far better than when you started. Most games reflect this with an increase in enemy potency, or platforming difficulty, or other facets of level design. Rock Band does this via note charts and difficulty increases. Many upper tier enemies on lower difficulty settings are comparable to weaker enemies on higher difficulties. Many of the upper tier Easy songs are comparable in difficulty to lower tier Medium songs. Many games have optional challenges that are much more difficult that the core game requirement.

The game is forcing you to make an improvement as you play through the campaign, much as any other game does. Except, instead of subtly bumping the difficulty up, the game is explicitly advising you that in order to progress to finish the game you need to at least finish it at the Normal difficulty (Medium), and in order to unlock optional content you need to play on Hard/Expert. You then have the option to pick your battles at this higher difficulty. I mean, there are a hell of a lot of games will throw the equivalent of a Medium level chart at you towards the end of the game without telling you so much.



The only recurring reasons that people have presented for changing or removing the cap is "I'm not willing/able to make the jump to a higher difficulty" or "my friends and family are unhappy because we don't see any more fans being gained), which I (and, apparently, 25&#37; of the posting population, if not as much or more of the playing population) don't consider enough of a reason to change it. Gone are the days of "if at first you don't succeed, try, try again", replaced with things like grading on a curve in elementary school.

You may say there hasn't been a persuasive argument for leaving the cap in place, but the people trying to keep it in place aren't the ones trying to change the status quo, and I haven't seen a persuasive argument the other way. This isn't like the kick pedal thread where I can understand the rationale for wanting it removed for those with a disability, but not for those without a sense of rhythm. It's a rhythm game, for crying out loud.

[monlienNH3]

I don't think the people in the "opposed to fan cap removal" camp understand the real problem. From my experience, it's not about the locked venues, the Hall of Fame, the challenges that you're locked out of, it's all about the simple number... fans. They haven't experienced rocking a nearly perfect 5* performance on hard drums/medium guitar/medium vocals to receive the message, "0 Fans earned. Play on a higher difficulty to earn more fans."

To me, that's the problem. Not the achievements. Not the stuff that's locked. Play through single player if you want all the songs. I can't think of a good example to compare to, but I'll try. What if you were playing Madden NFL franchise mode and you won the Super Bowl, and then you received the mesage "Congrats! You won the Super Bowl, but to have this championship count on your Franchise record, play on All Madden difficulty."

[espher]

Yeah, actually you're right about that. I just fail to understand how that's a problem.

[Siberian]

Bumping up difficulty is a choice.

There's no way you have stars in the majority of cities by the time you cap out fans.

There's still tons to do w/ capped out medium fans all over the map for unlocking venues and events. My friends and I have started like 3 bands (different 360s) and capped here and there but never once was it a problem.

When we're there to have fun so most of the time we end up sitting on one town with a 'create a 2 song setlist' and playing that over and over. Just need to search around and find me venue with a 3 or 5 song 'create a setlist' and then we'll never move lol.

Other times though when I'm with a group of more 'serious' players I love the fan cap, it really pushes people to try the game on a level they're not entirely comfortable with. It's a real sense of accomplishment managing to eek out a song w/ hard drums/vocals enabled and players who really not quite at that level. ;)

Of course often we lose fans in this process. Which means we can go back to medium drums to win them back! :cool:

[stickshady2007]

Sounds fine to me. Let's remove the fan cap and set the venues to be difficulty-based unlocks.





The game is forcing you to make an improvement as you play through the campaign, much as any other game does. Except, instead of subtly bumping the difficulty up, the game is explicitly advising you that in order to progress to finish the game you need to at least finish it at the Normal difficulty (Medium), and in order to unlock optional content you need to play on Hard/Expert. You then have the option to pick your battles at this higher difficulty. I mean, there are a hell of a lot of games will throw the equivalent of a Medium level chart at you towards the end of the game without telling you so much.





You may say there hasn't been a persuasive argument for leaving the cap in place, but the people trying to keep it in place aren't the ones trying to change the status quo, and I haven't seen a persuasive argument the other way. This isn't like the kick pedal thread where I can understand the rationale for wanting it removed for those with a disability, but not for those without a sense of rhythm. It's a rhythm game, for crying out loud.


Dude Hows this content you speak of optional when we all payed 170 bucks for it i makes it non optional it came with the main game dlc maps gamerpics thats optional buddy. My band will finish as far as we can on meduim fans or no fans. But theres no way we can play on ungodly levels. And for your info does halo 1 2 3 or elderscrolls oblivion or ghost recon the list goes onn and back to super mario brothers switch from normal to legendary ater 5 hours of playing so you can finish the game ?No you get a choice at the beginning and play through it how you want thats what makes it a game otherwise it sounds like a job. I have job and want a game that kicks butt like rb does for the most part not another freaking job!

[Aybara]

So the kick pedal issue for someone with a disability is OK, but if play can play Expert without a kick pedal is that OK?

But someone without the talent/time/desire/ability to add the 5th button on guitar doesn't get that benefit?

The people asking for removal of the cap are wanting to keep the fun in the game. As I have posted before. There are games you can beat entirely on Easy and get all the unlockables. So saying that this is a necessity is not valid.

There is a difficulty setting for a reason. The way you play and enjoy the game obviously differs from how others want to play and enjoy the game.

There is NO way after 6 to 10 songs someone is ready to move from Easy to Medium if this is their first game. But that is what it is doing.

The argument for removing the cap is an easy one. People will continue to play and enjoy the game. They will introduce more people to the game, who will buy it and play creating a demand. Allowing other difficulties to continue gaining fans will allow them to gain fans. Yes it is just a number, but it is amazing how some people feel getting something other than a zero there.

The argument for leaving the cap in place are harder to argue for. You've got the people who want their precious unlockables for them only. You've got the people who feel that if you aren't progressing you are somehow missing out. Finally, you've got the people who simply argue in favor of maintaining the status quo.

But for YOUR play style to dictate my play style is simply wrong.

Harmonix made the choice for the fan cap. I, and others, are making our counter-point to that decision. As is our choice to do so.

If they take a look at what is being proposed and come in and say "Tough, nothing is going to change", we'll have to accept that. However, they could also determine that it needs to be looked at as well.

We will see if anyone above the Users looks at this and comments. I'd be interested in their input.

I'm just pointing out that the most hyped aspect of this game is geared towards the hardcore, and that in some aspects you lose the 'fun' parts if you don't go Expert.

And only the fanatics will truly care about the 'Everyone' leaderboards anyway.

In any game I have played, the only Leaderboards that I really look at compares me to the people in my friends list. I know I am not going to rival some of those out there who have no life and can devote every waking hour to playing games.

[espher]

I'll just agree to disagree.

I have a video game traditionalist viewpoint and it just isn't going to change.

If a more persuasive argument comes along I'd certainly entertain it, but I've yet to see one. I honestly don't remember seeing this much fuss about difficulty levels on GH1/2, when it was functionally the same thing, if not aesthetically.

[Aybara]

They are completely different experiences IMHO.

In GH1/2 you missed out on a couple skins for not going all the way to Expert. I don't recall missing anything else.

In Rock Band you miss out on venues, fan totals, and who knows what else.

Although I do not understand the 'Traditionalist' comment.

I've played the best of games of varying degrees of difficulty. I've plodded my way through plenty of difficult content. Eventually I will move up to Hard and Expert on Rock Band. I've done it before and will do it again.

However, the people I have access to play with do not have the time or desire (and in some cases ability) to practice and go to Expert. Which is why I am in favor of the change.

With the sheer customizable options in BWT, people want to play that mode. However, you would be surprised how many will be turned off by the fact that they suddenly stop gaining fans.

Traditionalist or not, the gaming scene is changing. Some people want the challenge. Some people want the experience. Rock Band has the ability to deliver both, and in most cases does. In this one aspect, it is putting challenge over experience. Yes, it will turn off the casual gamer in time, and some quicker than others.

It is fairly obvious that people want to keep gaining fans in any difficulty. As it enhances the experience for those people. All you have to do is go to any gaming site, to the forums for Rock Band, and see the people saying as much. It's on the IGN forums, the Gamefaq forums, and even the Xbox.com forums.

[electrichorseman]

Easy Fix let people choose to play either Ranked or Social Matches like Halo or Gears. Social has no cap so people can play though and theranked let the hardcores get their precious ranks......

[Peytah]

A party game is a game where you can gather 3-5 casual gamers and have fun. With quick play or any other multi-player mode, you can do that. Harmonix is not obligated to make the "Campaign" mode of the game a breeze for your 6 year old son. Usually a gaming party won't consist of a 20 hour playing session of beating the BWT in one sitting. If there's 3-4 of you that gather every night at 9 PM to go beat the game(or beat it as much as possible) for a week straight, then that's pretty hardcore and it justifies the cap levels.

[Matthias99]

With the sheer customizable options in BWT, people want to play that mode. However, you would be surprised how many will be turned off by the fact that they suddenly stop gaining fans.

I guess I'm just not understanding this. The same players who are casual enough that they can't play at Hard/Expert are going to be turned off from the game because an arbitrary number stops going up and there are a few random visual unlockables they can't get? All the GH games kept you from unlocking some songs and venues unless you cleared it on at least Medium difficulty, and I don't recall a massive outcry over that.

As far as I can tell the only things you miss in BWT mode if you play at Medium are a few venues; you can still "beat the game" and unlock all the songs. If you can't play consistently at Medium... I'm sorry, but you need to give it more than a week.

BWT is more like a "group career mode" than a "party mode" IMO; if you just want to have some people over and play a few songs, you can unlock them all yourself and use Quickplay. If you want to have the BWT costumes, etc. -- they should let you use your custom BWT characters and unlocked venues in Quickplay mode, not let you unlock everything in BWT on Easy so that you don't have to try.

[Xzyliac]

I'm in a jam. I play with a ten year old lil bro and two casual gamer friends.

Do I support Easy-only fan caps? Hell yeah please.

We did it for stores in GH. Why change the formula?

[electrichorseman]

perfect example:
Imagine if you had to have another person to play on heroic with you to enjoy the last half of Halo 3. It could only be done co-op and not online. People would be in an uproar and most of the gaming public would never see the end of the game. Imagine trying to push your wife to play Halo 3 on heroic.

[BigWeather]

I guess I'm just not understanding this. The same players who are casual enough that they can't play at Hard/Expert are going to be turned off from the game because an arbitrary number stops going up and there are a few random visual unlockables they can't get?

Don't confuse "hardcore" with "can play at expert". I played GH2, GH3, and now Rock Band for untold hours and I still can't play very deep in hard. Just because I can't play expert doesn't mean I don't play lots and don't want to see all of the content in the game. I just physically am not able to keep up with later hard and certainly not expert.

Both GH3 and Rock Band suffer from a horrible difficulty gap between medium and hard. I was hoping Rock Band would fix it, but it didn't. Going from a four-button moderately-paced medium to five-button fast-paced hard is too great a jump -- they should've introduced the fifth button at medium speed for hard (or medium+).

Oh, well. Still love the game.

[electrichorseman]

I guess I'm just not understanding this. The same players who are casual enough that they can't play at Hard/Expert are going to be turned off from the game because an arbitrary number stops going up and there are a few random visual unlockables they can't get? All the GH games kept you from unlocking some songs and venues unless you cleared it on at least Medium difficulty, and I don't recall a massive outcry over that.

As far as I can tell the only things you miss in BWT mode if you play at Medium are a few venues; you can still "beat the game" and unlock all the songs. If you can't play consistently at Medium... I'm sorry, but you need to give it more than a week.

BWT is more like a "group career mode" than a "party mode" IMO; if you just want to have some people over and play a few songs, you can unlock them all yourself and use Quickplay. If you want to have the BWT costumes, etc. -- they should let you use your custom BWT characters and unlocked venues in Quickplay mode, not let you unlock everything in BWT on Easy so that you don't have to try.

You made two points that make our points viable...
First you talked of GH on Medium: yes its less but you can still complete GH on Medium without an cap.

Two: if it was a true group career mode like the solo tour then you could select a difficulty that was comfrotable for everyone. Besides if you are the one that lags behind consistantly do you enjy being the reason your band cant move on cause you arent capable of playing expert? Think it over bud. You sound like a hardcore and I commend you for that but dont critisize the rest of us who just want to have fun

And give it a week is not the point. This game is supposed to be the future of Music based games that was at least what the hype said.....if I cant continue to progress on some lvl then what is the point of me continuing to play or coming back to play it.....the cap just doesnt make sense.... yes I am getting better im starting to play songs on hard on the drums and I can play the guitar on Hard but that doesnt mean my bandmates are ready to make that jump....so do I just tell them "hey I cant play with you cause you arent as good as I am"
thats pretty S@#ty if you ask me....games are about having fun keep that in mind....

[Matthias99]

Don't confuse "hardcore" with "can play at expert". I played GH2, GH3, and now Rock Band for untold hours and I still can't play very deep in hard. Just because I can't play expert doesn't mean I don't play lots and don't want to see all of the content in the game. I just physically am not able to keep up with later hard and certainly not expert.

Both GH3 and Rock Band suffer from a horrible difficulty gap between medium and hard. I was hoping Rock Band would fix it, but it didn't. Going from a four-button moderately-paced medium to five-button fast-paced hard is too great a jump -- they should've introduced the fifth button at medium speed for hard (or medium+).

Oh, well. Still love the game.

I can clear everything in GH1/GH2 (except some of the bonus songs) in Hard, and can make some progress in Expert. It took me weeks to be able to clear all the songs in Hard mode, and I'm far from 5-starring the top tier of either game in Hard months and months later. I'm still working on both GH3 and RB (I just got a 360 and both games last week), but so far I'm doing pretty well on Hard in both (and Medium on drums).

The way I see it, the 'meat' of the game is the song unlocks (and maybe the HOF and 'beating' career mode). Everything else is just fluff. And you can unlock all the songs at Medium difficulty. Is it cool to have everything? Sure. But I see the visual unlocks and new venues as more of a reward/incentive to get better, not a way to punish people who can't 5-star everything on Expert. Anyone who doesn't have some kind of physical disability (and is over the age of 8 or so) should be able to clear things on Medium with some practice.

There is a fairly substantial jump in guitar difficulty between Medium and Hard. Many songs require COMPLETELY different fingering on Hard, since you can no longer just keep your hand in one position like you can on Easy/Medium. I think it would be very difficult for them to tone the transition down much unless you made the earlier songs have much simpler parts on Hard mode (ie, using all five buttons but being paced more like an Easy mode song). Many of them aren't really that much faster in Hard, they just have more complex chords and runs.

[Matthias99]

You made two points that make our points viable...
First you talked of GH on Medium: yes its less but you can still complete GH on Medium without an cap.

The "cap" is an arbitrary number that stops going up. It doesn't stop you from unlocking anything important (IMO). If you care deeply about having those last few venues then I don't know what to say other than that you're not really that casual.


Two: if it was a true group career mode like the solo tour then you could select a difficulty that was comfrotable for everyone. Besides if you are the one that lags behind consistantly do you enjy being the reason your band cant move on cause you arent capable of playing expert? Think it over bud. You sound like a hardcore and I commend you for that but dont critisize the rest of us who just want to have fun

If you had to play on Expert to get anywhere I would understand. Playing on Medium is just not that hard. Do you have to work at it for a while? Yes. But if you could just breeze through everything in a couple hours there wouldn't be any incentive to get better.


And give it a week is not the point. This game is supposed to be the future of Music based games that was at least what the hype said.....if I cant continue to progress on some lvl then what is the point of me continuing to play or coming back to play it.....the cap just doesnt make sense.... yes I am getting better im starting to play songs on hard on the drums and I can play the guitar on Hard but that doesnt mean my bandmates are ready to make that jump....so do I just tell them "hey I cant play with you cause you arent as good as I am"
thats pretty S@#ty if you ask me....games are about having fun keep that in mind....

You can pick separate difficulties for each player. You are only truly stopped from progressing (IMO) if you have people still at Easy, which is (again, IMO) a reasonable cutoff to "beat the game" (so to speak). I'm not understanding how that arbitrary number no longer going up makes the game not be fun. If you're playing with real beginners who can't hack Medium -- it will take some time for you all to reach that point, but that gives you something to work towards.

[electrichorseman]

ok so what happens when you play BWT and your friends struggle to play on Medium...do you tell them that you cant play with them because they arent on your lvl? that kind of sucks man.....
prime example....
Imagine if you had to have another person to play on heroic with you to enjoy the last half of Halo 3. It could only be done co-op and not online. People would be in an uproar and most of the gaming public would never see the end of the game. Imagine trying to push your wife or GF or little brother etc... to play Halo 3 on heroic. Im not saying give the game away just let people progress on their own dont force them to progress because most will just quit....it is hailed as a party game after all.....besides I dont know how anyone completes drum on expert with that POS Pedal they gave us....mine snapped in two after 4 days of "normal use"

[Matthias99]

ok so what happens when you play BWT and your friends struggle to play on Medium...do you tell them that you cant play with them because they arent on your lvl? that kind of sucks man.....

If they actually try to get better they will. I think there are very, very few people (excepting people who have some kind of physical disability) who can't learn to play the game at Medium.

If your friends just want to casually play some songs together, use Quickplay mode. Making career mode stupidly easy to beat would be the wrong thing to do IMO.


prime example....
Imagine if you had to have another person to play on heroic with you to enjoy the last half of Halo 3. It could only be done co-op and not online. People would be in an uproar and most of the gaming public would never see the end of the game. Imagine trying to push your wife to play Halo 3 on heroic.

I don't see it as being the same, since the real "content" of Rock Band is the songs, and you can unlock all of them at what I think is a fairly reasonable level of difficulty (consider that in all the GH games you have to play at Medium to get access to all the songs as well).


Im not saying give the game away just let people progress on their own dont force them to progress because most will just quit....it is hailed as a party game after all.....

I guess I see the amount of "forcing" they do as reasonable (and similar to what was in the Guitar Hero series). There is nothing that stops you from just casually playing every song once they are unlocked.

This is something that is going to be subjective. At some point people may just have to agree to disagree on this sort of thing. I'm not going to throw a hissy fit if Harmonix decides to let you unlock everything in BWT even on Easy, or change the way the fan count works so people don't feel like they're not making progress. But I don't think they should make it substantially easier than it is now, because it takes away the incentive for people to get better.


besides I dont know how anyone completes drum on expert with that POS Pedal they gave us....mine snapped in two after 4 days of "normal use"

Ouch. The pedal seems pretty sturdy to me; how the heck did you break a mostly solid piece of plastic in half? I figure I'd have to jump up and down on it to do that...

[electrichorseman]

If they actually try to get better they will. I think there are very, very few people (excepting people who have some kind of physical disability) who can't learn to play the game at Medium.

I think your overestimating the capabilities of people that play. I can play on Hard maybe even on expert on Guitar (ive been playing GH since it came out and Frequency and Amplitude before that) but my "bandmates" havent they are just starting in this music game thing so they arent as good as I am but I still have fun playing with them that doesnt mean I should exclude them and look for people who can play on the same lvl as I am because once we start doing that we are doing what they did in the South Park Episode Guitar *****-o "your friend is good but with the right back up band I bet you could break a million fans" Think about it.....if you havent seen the episode watch it...it makes a lot of sense in this arguement.....

If your friends just want to casually play some songs together, use Quickplay mode. Making career mode stupidly easy to beat would be the wrong thing to do IMO.

(and we aernt just playing casually together but some people just dont have the skill or the desire to be able to play consistantly on Hard or Expert)

I don't see it as being the same, since the real "content" of Rock Band is the songs, and you can unlock all of them at what I think is a fairly reasonable level of difficulty (consider that in all the GH games you have to play at Medium to get access to all the songs as well).

If thats all to the game then why even put in the Mult career? Im not trying to measure myself against the world im just trying to have fun with my friends playing a game and completing it. how about if on Gears when you were on the train getting ready to fight RAAM it said "Great job, but you have to play on hard with someone who is a better partner to see what happens next" most people would say that sucks and stop playing some would push through thats true . The point is you Finish Gears on the same Difficulty and you get the full experience regardless of what lvl you play it on you payed the money for the game why should I not get to enjoy the whole game because im not a Hardcore Rock band player........besides putting this much effort into learning to play the drums? I might as well start a real band.....

[electrichorseman]

Ouch. The pedal seems pretty sturdy to me; how the heck did you break a mostly solid piece of plastic in half? I figure I'd have to jump up and down on it to do that...

My god I hope that is sarcasm......that POS pedal broke after roughly 14 hours of normal use (over a couple of days mind you)

Also the point you keep making is the lock out on Easy vs Normal on Guitar Hero...you can still finish the game on Normal and get the same experience that you get by beating it on Expert. I play on hard and I massacre my friends on GH this isnt the point of RB's BWT, I thought it was its to play together with friends and have a good time and not be hindered by an arbitrary progression point set by Harmonix....your right though it will be a subjective argument...

[Matthias99]

If thats all to the game then why even put in the Mult career? Im not trying to measure myself against the world im just trying to have fun with my friends playing a game and completing it.

...and they decided that to "complete" the game you have to all be able to play at Medium difficulty. Beyond Medium you're just getting some more visual unlocks (like new venues); you already have all the songs, and can "beat the game" and get into the Hall Of Fame.


how about if on Gears when you were on the train getting ready to fight RAAM it said "Great job, but you have to play on hard with someone who is a better partner to see what happens next" most people would say that sucks and stop playing some would push through thats true . The point is you Finish Gears on the same Difficulty and you get the full experience regardless of what lvl you play it on you payed the money for the game why should I not get to enjoy the whole game because im not a Hardcore Rock band player.......

IMO, it's not the same -- getting some extra venues in RB is not the same as not having all the songs (which would be like not getting the last level/ending of GoW). Forcing you to play at Medium difficulty to access all the songs is exactly what they did in their previous games. I see getting absolutely everything as a reward for the people who can clear the game at higher difficulty settings. You can't see the full ending of Halo 3, for instance, unless you can clear the whole game in Legendary. Does that mean the non-hardcore players who can't hack Legendary mode are being cheated somehow? Or does it give them something to work towards?

And I do really think that almost anyone can -- with some practice -- be able to clear all the songs at Medium (and with one or two players at higher difficulties, it's pretty easy to get 5-star ratings). IMO, this does not require being a "hardcore" player who practices for hours a day. If you want to clear everything on Expert and your friends are not up to it -- yes, you should find some other equally talented/dedicated people to do the career mode with, and just play casually with your friends.

[electrichorseman]

LMAO but thats all the friends I have......:-) Great points on both sides...its too subjective to really come to an answer....I guess what it boils down to is if they unlocked it so people could continue what would it hurt? IT would make the game accessable to even more people and that can only help the francise.

[Matthias99]

My god I hope that is sarcasm......that POS pedal broke after roughly 14 hours of normal use (over a couple of days mind you)

No, I wasn't being sarcastic. I'm not really clear on what you broke; the mechanism seems very robust. I would be surprised if I broke mine any time soon.


Also the point you keep making is the lock out on Easy vs Normal on Guitar Hero...you can still finish the game on Normal and get the same experience that you get by beating it on Expert.

I'm bringing it up because it seems to parallel what they did in BWT mode. What experience are you not getting when you play BWT capped at Medium? There are a few venues you can't get to, but you can get all the songs and "beat the game".


I play on hard and I massacre my friends on GH this isnt the point of RB's BWT, I thought it was its to play together with friends and have a good time and not be hindered by an arbitrary progression point set by Harmonix....your right though it will be a subjective argument...

I guess I'm seeing it as:

Easy -> You can partially complete BWT.
Medium -> You can complete BWT.
Hard/Expert -> You can unlock extra stuff in BWT.

Which is basically what they did in GH as well. You can't get all the songs in Easy, and clearing Hard/Expert and 5-starring each mode gets you new visual unlocks but not new songs.

I guess you can argue that "forcing" people to play in Medium is too difficult -- after all, there may be some people who will never be able to complete BWT in Medium mode, or will give up before they get good enough to do so. But IMO, letting you do everything in Easy would be too easy, and not give people any incentive to get better.

[electrichorseman]

No, I wasn't being sarcastic. I'm not really clear on what you broke; the mechanism seems very robust. I would be surprised if I broke mine any time soon.

Mine broke right at the point where the spring is connected....if you push down on your pedal you can feel if flex forward. The spring I thing is a little too strong....you should see all the threads on real world drum pedals being modded to combat this problem if yours hasnt broken the kudos to you but tread lightly my friend.....


I'm bringing it up because it seems to parallel what they did in BWT mode. What experience are you not getting when you play BWT capped at Medium? There are a few venues you can't get to, but you can get all the songs and "beat the game".
I guess I'm seeing it as:
Easy -> You can partially complete BWT.
Medium -> You can complete BWT.
Hard/Expert -> You can unlock extra stuff in BWT.

But you cant complete it...there are venues and gigs that are greyed out that of course require fans to unlock and more so you cant really complete the game....you can play the songs but again if that was all you were interested in then whouldnt people just play on quickplay and not complain....and speaking of people are we the only 2 people talking in this forum? How about some other opinions folks???? This is a hot button issue look at the petition numbers over 75 % of players agree with the removal.....what does that say?

[Matthias99]

Mine broke right at the point where the spring is connected....if you push down on your pedal you can feel if flex forward. The spring I thing is a little too strong....you should see all the threads on real world drum pedals being modded to combat this problem if yours hasnt broken the kudos to you but tread lightly my friend.....

Again... ouch.


But you cant complete it...there are venues and gigs that are greyed out that of course require fans to unlock and more so you cant really complete the game....you can play the songs but again if that was all you were interested in then whouldnt people just play on quickplay and not complain....

Okay, but... when I play a Guitar Hero game on Medium, there are extra guitars and characters that I can't get. Does that mean I couldn't "complete the game"? Why is this situation different?

"Completing" BWT, to me, is getting into the Hall Of Fame and finishing the Endless setlist. You can do that in Medium difficulty, even though there is still extra 'stuff' that is locked.


and speaking of people are we the only 2 people talking in this forum? How about some other opinions folks???? This is a hot button issue look at the petition numbers over 75 % of players agree with the removal.....what does that say?

It's kinda late, at least if you're on Eastern time.

There's a strong self-selection bias in polls like this, and these forums are only a tiny fraction of the total player base. So I'm not sure that 75% of the people who responded here being for removal of the cap means a whole lot.

[thecactusman17]

I play on expert. I can (barely) beat Through The Fire and the Flames in GH3. If I teamed up with a bunch of random expert players I'm sure we could eventually get through the whole game on expert.

My parents? My brothers? My friend who came all the way down from Humboldt college over Thanksgiving?

Not so much, especially on drums and mic.

Do you know who's being punished for not being able to play on expert?

People who never will, who will never want to, and who will never see this as more than a fun time to play games with family.

Please, let them finish the game with me. If I wanted to play in a real band, there are plenty of guys at my college who could help me out. I want to play with my younger brothers and the rest of my family.

Just as soon as this f*$&ing guitar gets fixed for my PS3.

Stop being bunch of killjoys and recognize that a nobody band of family members switching out instruments between songs isn't going to shorten your e-penis on the leaderboards.

[mattfish]

I'm firstposting in an apparently epic thread. I don't own the game or any Guitar Hero. I came to the forums to look up whether I could switch the hihat and snare on the drumset and found this.

As such, I am going to offer no new viewpoint and restate everything already said.

It's very evident that with the release of this game a lot of people are going to get exposure to music games for the first time; that being the friends and family of the people who bought GH I and II and got hooked.

I started playing music games late, back in '02 with DDR and through the whole Bemani catalogue at a casual gamer rate. And I played piano and sung as a kid, so I had musical and rhythmic background to help me through all this. I never set records at any particular one, but the skills acquired over the years of casual play allowed me to sit down at the Rock Band drumset and immediately pass songs on Hard.

This sort of thing seems to be what a lot of people assume to be par for the course for anyone picking up the game.

The game has not been out for very long at all. Guitar Hero itself, relative to existing music games (albeit in a niche market and in japanese import form) has not been around for very long. The fact that some people have gotten so good at it so quickly means that the international market has potential to progress rapidly at these things. On the other hand, I've played Beatmania IIDX for years and my progress has been stagnating at 7 star (or whatever the new difficulty ratings are) songs for longer than Guitar Hero has existed. Because the japanese are masochists, apparently, that means I'll never be able to pass anything from any of the new games, because they keep getting exponentially harder and harder as the players get better and better. So I guess I'm jaded.

Most of the fun of these games was the fact that you needed to be good at them to progress and unlock things and get good ratings. Maybe I'm just oldschool, but I can't imagine how anybody could be complaining about such a mundane cap when in all honesty Harmonix could have limited the songlist or the ability to finish BWT and get the end credits (beat the game) to being able to play on Expert. I mean, that's how most of video game history works. The fact that they didn't means they already gave this argument tons of thought and ruled in favor of your disabled grandfather being able to complete the game and unlock ALL THE GAMEPLAY CONTENT without having to set foot in Hard mode. Why isn't that enough?

Give it time. You don't throw away the game after a month of play, and unless you're a savant you certainly don't learn Expert within a month of play unless you have significant background in READING MUSIC GAME CHARTS (not even musical experience! musical experience is completely moot!). Let this completely ridiculous yardstick be the only significant skill-based reward left in the game, and play it more than when you bought it until now to decide whether you (or your easily frustrated family) hit the insurmountable brick wall.

Seriously, I thought there was practice mode with slowdown. That **** helped me out bigtime when I got stuck on the transition into maniac-level DDR songs, it should help even more here.

To those who can't or won't invest the time to be better than medium, why in hell would they worry about an arbitrary "score"? Why would your score go up if you are not making any progress?

[thecactusman17]

There's a strong self-selection bias in polls like this, and these forums are only a tiny fraction of the total player base. So I'm not sure that 75&#37; of the people who responded here being for removal of the cap means a whole lot.

*looks at current tabulation of 199 to 63 in favor of first poster*

Dude, there comes a time when everyone sort of has to accept reality.

[mattfish]

*looks at current tabulation of 199 to 63 in favor of first poster*

Dude, there comes a time when everyone sort of has to accept reality.

Yeah, accept that the people who take the time to complain on message board polls are almost entirely the people who are dissatisfied, because it is a dilemma that would never, ever have crossed the minds of someone who was not dissatisfied

[monlienNH3]

My problem is not with the unlockable stuff. It just doesn't seem right that a game about gaining fans, making money, being in a rock band would stop allowing you to gain fans after playing a couple of shows and reaching the 260,000 mark. Why not stop making money too? Who wants to pay a crappy medium level band when they could get a hard or expert band? Also it doesn't have any real world reasoning to it either...

So hypothetically, they are saying that Nirvana should gain far less fans than say Dragonforce since Nirvana's songs are much easier to play? And unless Nirvana ups their guitar/drum difficulty to Dragonforce's, they should never gain another fan ever.... unless they lose some, of course.

There seems to be no reason for this. And yes, it is just a number. Just like the score on Pac-Man is just a number. Just like the rushing yards on Madden is just a number. Just like total headshots is just a number. But hold on, we won't give you more score, yards, or headshot stats unless you get at least one of your friends to become as fanatical about this game as you are.

Overall, I find this to be a poor design choice.

And to all the Guitar Hero references, the career in Rock Band is completely different, so there is no room for comparison. This should be compared to something more like MMORPG's and sports games. Why would you keep playing (with enthusiasm) a sports game if one of your primary goals (playoff births) had a difficulty cap limit that could be reached after one 2 hour session. Incentives make players have more fun. What's just a number to some makes the game better for others. Who would play Pac-Man if there weren't points? Sure you could say, I made it to level 52 without a continue, but it wouldn't be as fun without the points rolling away up top. And finally, the fan ordeal wouldn't be that bad (IMO) if they didn't flaunt it at you after each performance. You gained 0 fans.

We're not asking for equal fan gains. Personally, all I care for is at least a microscopic gain. Awesome show. You gained 2 fans! And occasionally remind me that I could be gaining many more if I had an all-expert band. I'm not trying to persuade anyone. I'm just explaining why I think it is a poor design choice which makes no sense in the realm of this particular game. So a band that can make the Hall of Fame isn't good enough to gain more fans?!? Sure, that makes perfect sense.

Edit: To clarify, this is not a game breaking thing for me. Just a weird annoyance. This game is incredible. But why would someone decide to link fans to difficulty? Stars - sure. Venues - sure. Outfits, guitars - definitely. Fans???

[mattfish]

Edit: To clarify, this is not a game breaking thing for me. Just a weird annoyance. This game is incredible. But why would someone decide to link fans to difficulty? Stars - sure. Venues - sure. Outfits, guitars - definitely. Fans???

Maybe it was because that was the logical unlocking requirement for bigger venues, and because they wanted to put in a cutoff to give some sort of non-gameplay-content reward for being able to play even SOME of the harder 50% of the notecharts in the game?

If you ask me, they should have made MORE superficial cutoffs. The vast majority of the content of this game is the harder notecharts, being able to have the entire songlist by doing the music game equivalent of graduating elementary school is extremely generous.

[monlienNH3]

Maybe it was because that was the logical unlocking requirement for bigger venues, and because they wanted to put in a cutoff to give some sort of non-gameplay-content reward for being able to play even SOME of the harder 50% of the notecharts in the game?

If you ask me, they should have made MORE superficial cutoffs. The vast majority of the content of this game is the harder notecharts, being able to have the entire songlist by doing the music game equivalent of graduating elementary school is extremely generous.

This is not a matter of my skill. I easily played through the Expert guitar career (minus the last 15% of Green Grass). And I can beat some songs doing both hard drums/hard vox and enjoy the challenge. I can also sing Hard and play expert guitar at the same time. With more practice I'll have expert/expert down, so I'll eventually gain more fans and it will not affect me whatsoever. But I'll have to play alone to achieve this, since all of my friends and family will most likey never pass medium and will definitely never reach expert. It's not like they haven't tried (Guitar Hero). But no one has provided a valid answer to why a band of lower difficulty would not gain fans in the real world. At the rate of fan gain I was asking for, most players still would not reach the fan requirements for certain challenges. I like the challenge, but I stand by my decision to say this is a poor design choice. Just cause I think Harmonix is awesome doesn't mean I should agree with every choice they made in the game. And equally, they have no obligation to fix this or even bother reading this thread. But we should be able to voice our opinions especially when providing valid reasons.

[Roses4Jen]

I think the caps should be removed. Little hard to play with other ppl that are new to these type of games. Signed

[Oblong]

I need to jump in to give my thoughts on why I think this poll is showing a landslide in favor of dropping the fan cap.

First, those who are playing WBT as a single person on 2 instruments or maybe just another expert/hard player friend isn't going to relate.

Rock Band has been touted as not just a new genre of game, but as a new platform. Comparing the unlocking of stuff to a single player experience like Super Mario or any other game is moot. Rock Band is a party game. That is where the game shines. Anyone here who has had a den full of family or friends taking turns filling out a 4 person band can relate that something magic happens when you have a full band playing compared to a couple people trying to beat the game.

So what happens when you are enjoying the full Rock Band experience? Real world, I have had my den full of teenagers and adults the past week. Probably normal ratio - a couple experts, half a dozen who work on hard, and then the majority who will play medium or struggle through medium just because of peer pressure. Pride kept easy pretty much out of the mix.

So given that setting, let's start the game. First thing is to design your rock band. You name your band then go through a really cool character creation process that really gets everyone into the concept and start identifying with the band. So far, so great.

Then you start hammering away at songs. It's a blast, people screaming into mics. Medium players playing a role saving the experts. Or vice versa. You make it to the end of a gig then the screens pop up. "Hey, I'm top performer!" someone shouts. "Longest streak!!!", shouts another. Then the next screen, "We gained 1,000 fans!!!" everyone yells. "Two new gigs!" shouts another. High fives around the room. And so it goes, on to the next gig. You even fail a couple gigs and heads drop as you see this band with the characters you are identifying with, has lost a few fans. Rather than conceding defeat, you swear to get 'em back by doing better at the next gig. And you do, victory at a 4 song set and you gain 10,000 fans! Woo hoo!!!

Then it happens. A couple hours into the process and you get the screen saying you must up the difficulty to gain more fans. The bass player on medium, who had been doing saves in previous gigs, drops his head. He is now a LIABILITY to the band. Up the difficulty to hard and now he is no longer the saviour, but needs saving. You try that and because you are a couple hours into the game, you not only need to up the difficulty but are playing more difficult songs to boot. The medium players who were having fun are suddenly not because of having to learn "the shift" to 5 buttons. So you start failing gigs and are losing fans.

The other choice is for that member or members to just stay on medium and sacrifice gaining any more fans. So you do that and finish a gig. "You have gained 0 fans" shows the screen now. Where once everyone in this party game was cheering at these screens while fans were gained, there is now a deathly silence. Someone notes, "Well we opened a couple new gigs." Buzzkill. The party aspect of the game has now received a deathblow.

The whole "point" of going through BWT is the fun of gaining fans. It's just a number, but the psychology behind it is monumental to the party atmosphere this game offers.

And the thing about the fans issue is NOBODY in this party atmosphere cares about the leaderboards or achievements. They don't pose any threat to those bands who can play through on hard or expert and compete for greatest rock band in the world. They just want that "feel good" aspect that they are contributing to their local band and can do so further than 2 hours into the experience.

[KeyzerSoze1979]

I need to jump in to give my thoughts on why I think this poll is showing a landslide in favor of dropping the fan cap.

First, those who are playing WBT as a single person on 2 instruments or maybe just another expert/hard player friend isn't going to relate.

Rock Band has been touted as not just a new genre of game, but as a new platform. Comparing the unlocking of stuff to a single player experience like Super Mario or any other game is moot. Rock Band is a party game. That is where the game shines. Anyone here who has had a den full of family or friends taking turns filling out a 4 person band can relate that something magic happens when you have a full band playing compared to a couple people trying to beat the game.

So what happens when you are enjoying the full Rock Band experience? Real world, I have had my den full of teenagers and adults the past week. Probably normal ratio - a couple experts, half a dozen who work on hard, and then the majority who will play medium or struggle through medium just because of peer pressure. Pride kept easy pretty much out of the mix.

So given that setting, let's start the game. First thing is to design your rock band. You name your band then go through a really cool character creation process that really gets everyone into the concept and start identifying with the band. So far, so great.

Then you start hammering away at songs. It's a blast, people screaming into mics. Medium players playing a role saving the experts. Or vice versa. You make it to the end of a gig then the screens pop up. "Hey, I'm top performer!" someone shouts. "Longest streak!!!", shouts another. Then the next screen, "We gained 1,000 fans!!!" everyone yells. "Two new gigs!" shouts another. High fives around the room. And so it goes, on to the next gig. You even fail a couple gigs and heads drop as you see this band with the characters you are identifying with, has lost a few fans. Rather than conceding defeat, you swear to get 'em back by doing better at the next gig. And you do, victory at a 4 song set and you gain 10,000 fans! Woo hoo!!!

Then it happens. A couple hours into the process and you get the screen saying you must up the difficulty to gain more fans. The bass player on medium, who had been doing saves in previous gigs, drops his head. He is now a LIABILITY to the band. Up the difficulty to hard and now he is no longer the saviour, but needs saving. You try that and because you are a couple hours into the game, you not only need to up the difficulty but are playing more difficult songs to boot. The medium players who were having fun are suddenly not because of having to learn "the shift" to 5 buttons. So you start failing gigs and are losing fans.

The other choice is for that member or members to just stay on medium and sacrifice gaining any more fans. So you do that and finish a gig. "You have gained 0 fans" shows the screen now. Where once everyone in this party game was cheering at these screens while fans were gained, there is now a deathly silence. Someone notes, "Well we opened a couple new gigs." Buzzkill. The party aspect of the game has now received a deathblow.

The whole "point" of going through BWT is the fun of gaining fans. It's just a number, but the psychology behind it is monumental to the party atmosphere this game offers.

And the thing about the fans issue is NOBODY in this party atmosphere cares about the leaderboards or achievements. They don't pose any threat to those bands who can play through on hard or expert and compete for greatest rock band in the world. They just want that "feel good" aspect that they are contributing to their local band and can do so further than 2 hours into the experience.


You hit the nail on the head with that one, thats exactly the point.

[Frederf]

The whole "point" of going through BWT is the fun of gaining fans.

Uhhh, that's pretty sad. Playing with my friends is fun when we all engage Overdrive at the same time, save each other after someone fails, 5-star a song we never have before, effectively use guitar sound effects, get into a groove together, bust someone up laughing due to improvised lyrics, get a Jet, open a venue... but fans?

"You have gained 0 fans."

You know what that says? That says you kicked so much butt in the first part of the game that you're way ahead of the expected performance. Sitting on the fan cap is always an achievement, an ego boost, a reminder that you can challenge yourself.

Never once did I ever consider kicking a friend out of play because he/she was at X difficulty level when they could have been at Y. Never once did a friend think he/she was "holding the band back" and might stop playing What kind of self-hating selfish score whores are you people? You make it sound like some people are going to burst into tears or commit suicide over fan caps. The people I play with form a wide range from easy to expert and it's always a positive experience.

Yes anyone with half a brain play testing the game would realize how schizophrenic the fan system is. One second you're gaining fans hand over fist, the next second the flood shuts off. Yes, the net fan gains should start to taper off as you reach your band's "natural fan retention number" whereat your band would just naturally oscillate around that number so you'd always have SOME fan activity after a show.

Honestly yes, you should be able to brute force win fans at a slow rate if you really need to but don't whitewash the game's personality so that "Everyone's special" which means of course "No one is."

GH held back plenty more from the mediocre player than RB ever will. Many guitars, characters, other buyables, a whole freaking tier of songs and a venue (of only a handful) for easy!

RB holds back what? 2 of 41 venues, a few "playlists" rearranging songs you've already played, a gamer point or two in accomplishments.

P.S. 204 votes out of several thousand RB units sold is hardly a majority. Unless you can prove this is a representative sampling, good luck.

[Oblong]

Frederf, obviously your experience has been different. But why are you dismissing what others experience has been? My accounts are real world things I have personally seen happening as well as many, many others.

We don't care about score. We don't care about achievements. We don't care about leaderboard rank. We don't care about the last 2 venues we won't unlock.

We are a band. They put a screen in the game about gaining fans, something a band wants to do, yet are cut off from that early on. It is a "feel good" stat. Want to make some sort of cap to entice people to up the difficulty? Go for it, just don't do it with fans.

Using fans as the cap for progressing is not the right way. That's all. When you compare the arguments for and against the fan issue I fail to see how those for it will in any way be compromised by accepting a change to add fun for those who don't take the game so seriously.

[Grey_Street]

Sounds fine to me. Let's remove the fan cap and set the venues to be difficulty-based unlocks.



It's a campaign mode. Generally speaking, when you play a campaign mode for a game, you're expected to pick up new ability so that by the time you finish the campaign you're usually far better than when you started. Most games reflect this with an increase in enemy potency, or platforming difficulty, or other facets of level design. Rock Band does this via note charts and difficulty increases. Many upper tier enemies on lower difficulty settings are comparable to weaker enemies on higher difficulties. Many of the upper tier Easy songs are comparable in difficulty to lower tier Medium songs. Many games have optional challenges that are much more difficult that the core game requirement.

The game is forcing you to make an improvement as you play through the campaign, much as any other game does. Except, instead of subtly bumping the difficulty up, the game is explicitly advising you that in order to progress to finish the game you need to at least finish it at the Normal difficulty (Medium), and in order to unlock optional content you need to play on Hard/Expert. You then have the option to pick your battles at this higher difficulty. I mean, there are a hell of a lot of games will throw the equivalent of a Medium level chart at you towards the end of the game without telling you so much.



You completely contradicted yourself there...You say that other games get increasingly difficult as the levels progress so they don't need to force your to move up to a new difficulty level, "I mean, there are a hell of a lot of games will throw the equivalent of a Medium level chart at you towards the end of the game without telling you so much". But you also said that, "Many of the upper tier Easy songs are comparable in difficulty to lower tier Medium songs". So this game does just as the other games do...it gets inherently more difficult as the player reaches higher teirs. SO, you should have to raise the difficulty because the teir system does this for you. I'd say you just made a pretty good argument to remove the cap...thanks.

[Willowyn]

So far there are both reasons for the fan cap and against it.

For:
1)Competing bands have ability-based grounds for competition, i.e. the band with the most time doesn't automatically win.
2)Encourages improvement.

Against:
1)Psychological blow when you play your heart out and get a "you earned 0 fans" message
2)This desire is strong enough for people to consider playing higher skill levels than they can, or finding better bandmates.

I suggest that instead of a hard fan cap, there be two of them--a soft one and a hard one. i.e. for Medium, a soft cap at 200,000, and a hard cap at 260,000.

After hitting the soft cap, you gain a percentage of the fans you normally would, and that percentage would shrink as you approached the hard cap(such that you never reach the hard cap, or reach it after a very long time). Instead of the sudden psychological blow of "you gained 0 fans", it'll be a gradual "you gained 62 fans! Play at a higher difficulty to earn fans faster.", and the next gig, "you gained 48 fans! ..." You'll kind of feel encouragement to move on to higher difficulty, but not feel like you're completely stagnant.

This method satisfies both sides, allowing competition to continue(as a band of certain skill will never break a hard cap for that skill) while at the same time drawing out the length at which a band can play on lower or safer skill levels. It also more gradually encourages them to try harder skills outside their comfort zone.

Thoughts?

[BigWeather]

I see lots of references to "if a band can't play at medium...". The cap is 260,000 at medium, not easy. At medium you can't even unlock all of the venues in the United States, much less Europe. Just wanted to clarify because this isn't a easy v. medium issue, but a medium v. hard issue.

My ten year old daughter through some practice can finish most of medium. My seven year old son can do easy fairly well. With practice he may be able to get to medium. The main issue for me is the gulf between medium and hard is much worse than easy to medium -- it's a gulf I've yet to be able to get past through hours of playing.

Someone earlier mentioned they didn't see a way that they could make the transition any easier from medium to hard. I do. Add the fifth-button but keep medium "speed" or notechart complexity (in terms of number of notes, obviously -- it'll necessarily be more complex having to reach for the orange).

Willowyn, your idea won't be embraced by anyone on the "against" camp. What you are proposing is essentially taking longer to get to the same low cap. In my opinion there shouldn't be a cap and the number of fans should just go down further and further from the 260,000 mark. The idea that a band on medium could get the 48,000,000 fans that one band had on the leaderboards in such a scenario is ludicrous -- there simply aren't enough hours in the day. But at least they are always gaining fans, even if it's 10 or 15 a song.

Edit: Personally I think the fan gain in the game is too fast. I was gaining 30k per song at the end. 30,000 from a performance of the Ramones? Unlikely! =)

[turnthree]

I've read several posts from people is favor of the cap saying players on medium don't wanna take the time to make the move up to hard and expert. I bought GH1 for my 9 year old son when it came out and was hooked. I have since bought GH2, 80's, GH3 and now Rock Band I can only make it through half the GH games on hard but haven't had a chance to really try on RB since I have a broke guitar. My BIG problem with moving up in difficulty is that the little finger on my left hand is useless after a bad break several years ago. Because of the break my little finger always wants to come down on my ring finger. I've tried lefty mode but have never been able to get the hang of it.

[ShadowOfEden]

I don't agree. Career SHOULD get harder as you go further. That's how it is in every games : you get better, but enemies get stronger. In RB, you get better and songs get harder. And since Rock Band has an infinite career, it would suck to be able to unlock everything playing at easy. If you want to keep playing at easy, just don't play in career.

[masterHeavy]

For fan cap removal.

There are already songs that are more difficult than others within the difficulty tiers.

I've played games forever, but never touched Guitar Hero so this concept is new to me. My wife has never played video games period but loves this game. So we have been having so much fun and the BWT makes it a great experience, but we feel like we are missing out on something being capped. And after spending $170 I simply cannot accept that we can unlock "most" everything on medium.

Although I've played games a long time, my wife and I simply aren't very good. I also play "real guitar" and can assure you that this game has nothing to do with playing real instruments(not changing forum topic). I mention that b/c this game is about gaming skill, which apparently with game, we have little of, although we have a lot of fun with it.

Practice? Please. We are "grown ups" with many responsibilites and other time commitments. We want to PLAY THE GAME and enjoy it at a pace that fits our skills and get what we paid for.

If you want to practice, beat it on hard or expert, knock yourself out. That is what the difficult levels are intended for in the first place. I for one, don't want to do it that way.

[seafisch]

Let's change the perspective a little bit:

If the hard/expert players really think that the easy/medium players are making too much of a fuss over how many fans they are earning, and the fact that they stop earning more fans after a certain arbitrary number - if the hard/expert players really think that the easy/medium players are placing too much importance on the number of fans, then let's get rid of the "meaningless number" entirely.

Everyone earns stars and money, but no one earns fans. Sound fun to the hard/expert players? Didn't think so. So let the easy/medium players continue to earn fans, just at a much slower rate. Otherwise, if the "fans earned" number shouldn't matter to the easy/medium players, then it shouldn't matter to the hard/expert players either.

People make the comparison to MMOs. In Final Fantasy XI (the only one I really have any familiarity with), a party could decide to fight only "easy" monsters the entire game. They would still get experience, they would still level up, it would just take an incredibly long time to get to "the end" (in this case, level 75). But if that didn't matter to them, they could play that way. The game doesn't cap them at a certain level and tell them they have to fight harder monsters if they want to continue to gain experience and levels.

[ShadowOfEden]

For fan cap removal.

There are already songs that are more difficult than others within the difficulty tiers.

I've played games forever, but never touched Guitar Hero so this concept is new to me. My wife has never played video games period but loves this game. So we have been having so much fun and the BWT makes it a great experience, but we feel like we are missing out on something being capped. And after spending $170 I simply cannot accept that we can unlock "most" everything on medium.

Although I've played games a long time, my wife and I simply aren't very good. I also play "real guitar" and can assure you that this game has nothing to do with playing real instruments(not changing forum topic). I mention that b/c this game is about gaming skill, which apparently with game, we have little of, although we have a lot of fun with it.

Practice? Please. We are "grown ups" with many responsibilites and other time commitments. We want to PLAY THE GAME and enjoy it at a pace that fits our skills and get what we paid for.

If you want to practice, beat it on hard or expert, knock yourself out. That is what the difficult levels are intended for in the first place. I for one, don't want to do it that way.

As I said, that's why you can play without playing career.

I'm happy that RB feels like an actual game that becomes harder as you progress. I own a Need For Speed game, but I've never won the last 3 tournaments because they are too much for me, but I had great fun with the free races. Same with RB. You can get the same fun playing in free mode rather than in career. That career gets harder as you progress is a video game standard. Casual gamers can still have the same fun. But I agree that the step between medium and hard feels more like a cliff rather than numerous steps leading to the top. At worse, you'll lose fans trying to play on hard or progress more slowly, but it's just a game so it doesn't matter.

[KeyzerSoze1979]

For fan cap removal.

There are already songs that are more difficult than others within the difficulty tiers.

I've played games forever, but never touched Guitar Hero so this concept is new to me. My wife has never played video games period but loves this game. So we have been having so much fun and the BWT makes it a great experience, but we feel like we are missing out on something being capped. And after spending $170 I simply cannot accept that we can unlock "most" everything on medium.

Although I've played games a long time, my wife and I simply aren't very good. I also play "real guitar" and can assure you that this game has nothing to do with playing real instruments(not changing forum topic). I mention that b/c this game is about gaming skill, which apparently with game, we have little of, although we have a lot of fun with it.

Practice? Please. We are "grown ups" with many responsibilites and other time commitments. We want to PLAY THE GAME and enjoy it at a pace that fits our skills and get what we paid for.

If you want to practice, beat it on hard or expert, knock yourself out. That is what the difficult levels are intended for in the first place. I for one, don't want to do it that way.


That seems to be the consenus with my friends and family as well. We had some amazing times over the Thanksgiving holiday with Rock Band but it would have been even better if that cap was not in place or if it was less harsh so we coul dhave kept going and really enjoyed the experience together rather than having my friends who are experienced have to jump in to advance the tour. Words cant describe how great it was to see my mother and aunt rocking out with me and my friends and family.

[Melkite445]

Probably the best summation of experience describing why the cap is freakin stupid.

Go Oblong!



I need to jump in to give my thoughts on why I think this poll is showing a landslide in favor of dropping the fan cap.

First, those who are playing WBT as a single person on 2 instruments or maybe just another expert/hard player friend isn't going to relate.

Rock Band has been touted as not just a new genre of game, but as a new platform. Comparing the unlocking of stuff to a single player experience like Super Mario or any other game is moot. Rock Band is a party game. That is where the game shines. Anyone here who has had a den full of family or friends taking turns filling out a 4 person band can relate that something magic happens when you have a full band playing compared to a couple people trying to beat the game.

So what happens when you are enjoying the full Rock Band experience? Real world, I have had my den full of teenagers and adults the past week. Probably normal ratio - a couple experts, half a dozen who work on hard, and then the majority who will play medium or struggle through medium just because of peer pressure. Pride kept easy pretty much out of the mix.

So given that setting, let's start the game. First thing is to design your rock band. You name your band then go through a really cool character creation process that really gets everyone into the concept and start identifying with the band. So far, so great.

Then you start hammering away at songs. It's a blast, people screaming into mics. Medium players playing a role saving the experts. Or vice versa. You make it to the end of a gig then the screens pop up. "Hey, I'm top performer!" someone shouts. "Longest streak!!!", shouts another. Then the next screen, "We gained 1,000 fans!!!" everyone yells. "Two new gigs!" shouts another. High fives around the room. And so it goes, on to the next gig. You even fail a couple gigs and heads drop as you see this band with the characters you are identifying with, has lost a few fans. Rather than conceding defeat, you swear to get 'em back by doing better at the next gig. And you do, victory at a 4 song set and you gain 10,000 fans! Woo hoo!!!

Then it happens. A couple hours into the process and you get the screen saying you must up the difficulty to gain more fans. The bass player on medium, who had been doing saves in previous gigs, drops his head. He is now a LIABILITY to the band. Up the difficulty to hard and now he is no longer the saviour, but needs saving. You try that and because you are a couple hours into the game, you not only need to up the difficulty but are playing more difficult songs to boot. The medium players who were having fun are suddenly not because of having to learn "the shift" to 5 buttons. So you start failing gigs and are losing fans.

The other choice is for that member or members to just stay on medium and sacrifice gaining any more fans. So you do that and finish a gig. "You have gained 0 fans" shows the screen now. Where once everyone in this party game was cheering at these screens while fans were gained, there is now a deathly silence. Someone notes, "Well we opened a couple new gigs." Buzzkill. The party aspect of the game has now received a deathblow.

The whole "point" of going through BWT is the fun of gaining fans. It's just a number, but the psychology behind it is monumental to the party atmosphere this game offers.

And the thing about the fans issue is NOBODY in this party atmosphere cares about the leaderboards or achievements. They don't pose any threat to those bands who can play through on hard or expert and compete for greatest rock band in the world. They just want that "feel good" aspect that they are contributing to their local band and can do so further than 2 hours into the experience.

[ShadowOfEden]

People make the comparison to MMOs. In Final Fantasy XI (the only one I really have any familiarity with), a party could decide to fight only "easy" monsters the entire game. They would still get experience, they would still level up, it would just take an incredibly long time to get to "the end" (in this case, level 75). But if that didn't matter to them, they could play that way. The game doesn't cap them at a certain level and tell them they have to fight harder monsters if they want to continue to gain experience and levels.

If you use a more standard game as example, like FFX. If there's a boss you find too hard, you won't progress. You have the option to try again or take the time to level up. In some games, leveling up is quite long. Change leveling up to practice and you get the same situation as in RB. Or in my NFS example, the AI was just too good for me. I can't level up or buy a better car because I'm locked to a certain car for those tournaments, the only thing I can do is practice, but I've never been able to complete the last tournaments, so I've never unlocked the latest cars or races. If you can't get pass a point, you can't progress. That's in almost every games.

[masterHeavy]

Yes, we had the same experience. I was actually surprised when I broke out RB that all the family members wanted to give it a try and rock out. What fun.

Two posts above, I see your point about it getting tougher as it progresses....it already does with more challenging songs within difficulty levels. I would like to play BWT at a pace the suits my skills....my wife and I don't want to go through on solo (right now) or just randomly play quick plays (for the most part). The tour is THE feature of the game. Makes you sort of feel like a.....Rock Band??? I paid 3x normal game cost...why should I accept a "workaround"?

[masterHeavy]

Yeah, exactly what Oblong said......

[neverenoughtime]

Fan Cap definitely needs to be removed.

[ShadowOfEden]

Yes, we had the same experience. I was actually surprised when I broke out RB that all the family members wanted to give it a try and rock out. What fun.

Two posts above, I see your point about it getting tougher as it progresses....it already does with more challenging songs within difficulty levels. I would like to play BWT at a pace the suits my skills....my wife and I don't want to go through on solo (right now) or just randomly play quick plays (for the most part). The tour is THE feature of the game. Makes you sort of feel like a.....Rock Band??? I paid 3x normal game cost...why should I accept a "workaround"?

I too play this game with my gf (we live together, but we're not married) and she's even better than me now. We've been playing for only a few days and we can play most songs at normal. Sure we don't get 99 or 100%, but we get better every times. I will probably be playing this game for months. If I can play on normal after 2 days, I'll be playing hard in a few weeks. A game shouldn't last less than a week. I bought Assassin's Creed and felt that there was nothing more to do in this game after 3 days, so I exchanged it. Rock Band has potential to last for months. It might be a cliff, but it's not impossible, and it only makes it longer, since I won't have unlocked everything after 2 weeks.

[Oblong]

I too play this game with my gf (we live together, but we're not married) and she's even better than me now. We've been playing for only a few days and we can play most songs at normal. Sure we don't get 99 or 100%, but we get better every times. I will probably be playing this game for months. If I can play on normal after 2 days, I'll be playing hard in a few weeks. A game shouldn't last less than a week. I bought Assassin's Creed and felt that there was nothing more to do in this game after 3 days, so I exchanged it. Rock Band has potential to last for months. It might be a cliff, but it's not impossible, and it only makes it longer, since I won't have unlocked everything after 2 weeks.

First of all, going from medium to hard is certainly a huge cliff...one that most family/friends will never get to or even want to.

I play on medium and have been having a blast. Is it easy at times? Yep. But on medium I am having F-U-N. On medium I can jump about, carry on, pipe in for vocals and be the group saviour helping those on expert/hard.

When I shift to hard just so I can keep my band progressing with fans I am not having fun. Now it is a chore. I am hypnotized to the screen hoping not to make enough mistakes where I have to be saved. I've stopped jumping and carrying on and singing. I am trying to learn "the finger shift" and sure I will over time. Didn't want to though, just wanted to have fun and complete a career with my family/friends on medium.

I repeat..."on medium". Normal. Average. WTF?!?! Where is there a game...a PARTY game no less...where you get capped for playing it on NORMAL mode? This isn't some single player game where you are to only blame yourself for not having skills. It's a group experience where if 1 person is playing it on NORMAL/AVERAGE/MEDIUM that they are a liability to a group of family/friends who want to complete a career for their band that goes further than 2 hours into the game.

There are plenty of lofty goals in this game for those who want the experience to last months. 1 million fans. Beat it as a group on hard. ETC. But for the lionshare of people who are going to play this game, youngsters, visiting family, the kids down the street who are over a couple times a month...you have created a real buzzkill by capping fans 2 hours into it for just playing on NORMAL.

I have seen plenty of possible solutions that would cater to both sides of the issue. What I haven't seen is why people against changing the cap are refusing to recognize that this is an issue with most people.

[espher]

You completely contradicted yourself there...You say that other games get increasingly difficult as the levels progress so they don't need to force your to move up to a new difficulty level, "I mean, there are a hell of a lot of games will throw the equivalent of a Medium level chart at you towards the end of the game without telling you so much". But you also said that, "Many of the upper tier Easy songs are comparable in difficulty to lower tier Medium songs". So this game does just as the other games do...it gets inherently more difficult as the player reaches higher teirs. SO, you should have to raise the difficulty because the teir system does this for you. I'd say you just made a pretty good argument to remove the cap...thanks.

I fail to see how I'm contradicting myself.

Many of the upper tier Easy songs are comparable in difficulty to lower tier Medium songs (but aren't Medium songs), and many games throw the equivalent of a Medium level chart at you towards the end of the game without telling you so much.

The thing is, this game does not end at 'Easy', just like most games on Easy difficulty don't actually end on Easy, except instead of progressing towards 'Medium' charts without telling you it overtly tells you that if you want to progress you need to jump to Medium and if not you're perfectly welcome to play around in the sandbox.

Not to mention that you have a lot of freedom of choice in which 'levels' of the game you play.

The progression basically goes:

Lower Tier Easy -> Upper Tier Easy/Lower Tier Medium -> Upper Tier Medium/Lower Tier Hard -> Ending -> Upper Tier Hard/Lower Tier Expert (Optional) -> Upper Tier Expert (Optional)

Where Band World Tour is concerned, an increase in difficulty is a combination of the tier system and difficulty levels. If we want to make the RPG analogy, a good one was made involving levelling up. If we want to make the MMORPG analogy, a good group with a mediocre healer can do fairly well if the other players are good at aggro management and crowd control, but that same group does much better when the healer improves.

The party game aspect, to me, is not Band World Tour. For some people, it is, and that's fine.

This argument can go both ways, but I'm still not being swayed by the "difficulty should be reduced because we are unable to/don't have the time to improve to the point of playing on that difficulty level" or self-esteem related issues. It, to me, is just not a compelling argument. Clearly, it is to some, but the numbers on this forum don't necessarily reflect the overall viewpoint. Only the dissenters are going to make noise. If you go to a restaurant and like the food, while there are some of you that might compliment the chef, there are far less of you that will do so when compared to those who will raise a fuss if the food is horrible.

[MJDoja]

Yes, we had the same experience. I was actually surprised when I broke out RB that all the family members wanted to give it a try and rock out. What fun.

Two posts above, I see your point about it getting tougher as it progresses....it already does with more challenging songs within difficulty levels. I would like to play BWT at a pace the suits my skills....my wife and I don't want to go through on solo (right now) or just randomly play quick plays (for the most part). The tour is THE feature of the game. Makes you sort of feel like a.....Rock Band??? I paid 3x normal game cost...why should I accept a "workaround"?

yea.. money YOU spent really matters to the rest of us

you paid for hardware, the game still costs the same.

stop being lazy , what exactly do you want? you dont wanna learn the harder songs but you wanna play the same easy ones and unlock stuff? whats with that dummy?

[MJDoja]

First of all, going from medium to hard is certainly a huge cliff...one that most family/friends will never get to or even want to.

I play on medium and have been having a blast. Is it easy at times? Yep. But on medium I am having F-U-N. On medium I can jump about, carry on, pipe in for vocals and be the group saviour helping those on expert/hard.

When I shift to hard just so I can keep my band progressing with fans I am not having fun. Now it is a chore. I am hypnotized to the screen hoping not to make enough mistakes where I have to be saved. I've stopped jumping and carrying on and singing. I am trying to learn "the finger shift" and sure I will over time. Didn't want to though, just wanted to have fun and complete a career with my family/friends on medium.

I repeat..."on medium". Normal. Average. WTF?!?! Where is there a game...a PARTY game no less...where you get capped for playing it on NORMAL mode? This isn't some single player game where you are to only blame yourself for not having skills. It's a group experience where if 1 person is playing it on NORMAL/AVERAGE/MEDIUM that they are a liability to a group of family/friends who want to complete a career for their band that goes further than 2 hours into the game.

There are plenty of lofty goals in this game for those who want the experience to last months. 1 million fans. Beat it as a group on hard. ETC. But for the lionshare of people who are going to play this game, youngsters, visiting family, the kids down the street who are over a couple times a month...you have created a real buzzkill by capping fans 2 hours into it for just playing on NORMAL.

I have seen plenty of possible solutions that would cater to both sides of the issue. What I haven't seen is why people against changing the cap are refusing to recognize that this is an issue with most people.

revisionist agenda

[thecactusman17]

I note that every person who has spoken against the removal of caps mentions how they have been playing the games on solo or have been playing only with one or two friends that worked through the GH series of games until everyone was on hard/expert. They anticipate playing RB for months until they have five-starred all the gigs and unlocked everything.

In short, there is nobody on that side of the fence who has even the slightest clue what the others are talking about.

So that they can get some perspective, I advocate the following:

Stop playing Rock Band, go sit down with the family you haven't seen in months, enjoy life with friends who lke to do things other than videogames, and generally live like a person who doesn't worry about whether or not their score at a video game cracks the top 100.

Then, come back with all these people new to the game, and see how much fun you have when everyone is jazzed and into it, and then suddenly the game effectively stops because nobody can play drums above easy without feeling like an uncoordinated fool.

I bet you'll change your tune real quick..

[Licensed to IL]

I also vote to remove the cap. I've been enjoying hard since GHI and my drummer is fine as well on hard, but the bassist and singer cannot do the harder songs above medium.

Also what are the fan caps. I know medium is 260k but what is hard and expert? TIA.

[espher]

I bet you'll change your tune real quick..

I'll take that bet and you're gonna regret 'cause I'm the best there's ever been.

[ShadowOfEden]

First of all, going from medium to hard is certainly a huge cliff...one that most family/friends will never get to or even want to.

I play on medium and have been having a blast. Is it easy at times? Yep. But on medium I am having F-U-N. On medium I can jump about, carry on, pipe in for vocals and be the group saviour helping those on expert/hard.

When I shift to hard just so I can keep my band progressing with fans I am not having fun. Now it is a chore. I am hypnotized to the screen hoping not to make enough mistakes where I have to be saved. I've stopped jumping and carrying on and singing. I am trying to learn "the finger shift" and sure I will over time. Didn't want to though, just wanted to have fun and complete a career with my family/friends on medium.

I repeat..."on medium". Normal. Average. WTF?!?! Where is there a game...a PARTY game no less...where you get capped for playing it on NORMAL mode? This isn't some single player game where you are to only blame yourself for not having skills. It's a group experience where if 1 person is playing it on NORMAL/AVERAGE/MEDIUM that they are a liability to a group of family/friends who want to complete a career for their band that goes further than 2 hours into the game.

There are plenty of lofty goals in this game for those who want the experience to last months. 1 million fans. Beat it as a group on hard. ETC. But for the lionshare of people who are going to play this game, youngsters, visiting family, the kids down the street who are over a couple times a month...you have created a real buzzkill by capping fans 2 hours into it for just playing on NORMAL.

I have seen plenty of possible solutions that would cater to both sides of the issue. What I haven't seen is why people against changing the cap are refusing to recognize that this is an issue with most people.

Yeah, there's solutions that would be good for both sides, like a reduced gain, but completly removing the cap isn't the way to go. Yes, I agree, for the people who never play the game, it sucks, but it is good for the game owners. We played it at a party last weekend and it we didn't even touch the career mode and no one seemed to bother. The only person I've played career so far is with my gf.

But yeah, finding a middle would be the best.

[Aybara]

This argument can go both ways, but I'm still not being swayed by the "difficulty should be reduced because we are unable to/don't have the time to improve to the point of playing on that difficulty level" or self-esteem related issues. It, to me, is just not a compelling argument. Clearly, it is to some, but the numbers on this forum don't necessarily reflect the overall viewpoint. Only the dissenters are going to make noise. If you go to a restaurant and like the food, while there are some of you that might compliment the chef, there are far less of you that will do so when compared to those who will raise a fuss if the food is horrible.

This is where your argument fails. I do not recall saying he difficulty needs to be lowered. Not once. I have advocated removing the FAN CAP only.

Medium difficulty as it stands already gets harder as you go on, and this is where everyone saying to go up in difficulty fails.

When I start on Medium and play songs like In Bloom and Mississippi Queen, they are the easier songs. When I it the cap, the next songs in my unlock list was Don't Fear the Reaper. That songs difficulty is already a jump from In Bloom. But then add a jump from Medium to Hard? That is quite a jump in necessary skill.

The songs you unlock at the end are more difficult on their own already. So there is already a difficulty progression within the mode selected.

No one is saying, make Medium easier to beat, make hard more like medium, or expert more like easy. All that is being asked is to remove the fan cap.

[espher]

This is where your argument fails. I do not recall saying he difficulty needs to be lowered. Not once. I have advocated removing the FAN CAP only.

Removal of the fan cap is akin to lowering the difficulty. Not the difficulty of the charts, but the difficulty of the game. If you're not being 'forced' to play on medium (or hard, or what have you) to hit the fan targets, you're lowering the difficulty of the game.

So yes, people are asking for the difficulty to be lowered indirectly.

Edit: If people want to be able to accomplish things that are optional and available on higher difficulties on lower difficulties, is that not indirectly asking for an easier gameplay experience overall?

I can respect that viewpoint, but I certainly don't agree with it.

So again, I'll agree to disagree. :)

[Aybara]

Removal of the fan cap is akin to lowering the difficulty. Not the difficulty of the charts, but the difficulty of the game. If you're not being 'forced' to play on medium (or hard, or what have you) to hit the fan targets, you're lowering the difficulty of the game.

So yes, people are asking for the difficulty to be lowered indirectly.

That is a pretty big leap. It is not lowering anything. The difficulty of every level remains the same. The only bonus right now is that you would get the last two venues (removal of fan cap). Those could easily be locked to difficulty. No problem. You want those, increase your difficulty level.

Cap the number of stars you earn, most people wouldn't care. The screen doesn't remind you after every 'gig' that you earned X number of stars. It reminds you how many fans you earned.

[Grey_Street]

Removal of the fan cap is akin to lowering the difficulty. Not the difficulty of the charts, but the difficulty of the game. If you're not being 'forced' to play on medium (or hard, or what have you) to hit the fan targets, you're lowering the difficulty of the game.

So yes, people are asking for the difficulty to be lowered indirectly.

Edit: If people want to be able to accomplish things that are optional and available on higher difficulties on lower difficulties, is that not indirectly asking for an easier gameplay experience overall?

I can respect that viewpoint, but I certainly don't agree with it.

So again, I'll agree to disagree. :)

Isn't that the point of a difficulty setting? To change the overall difficulty of the game? What is the point in having a setting if you are required to raise it after playing the game for a short time? I guess I see the difficulty setting being the way that a game producers make the game accessible to more people.

I don't disagree that people should strive to progress and get better, but forcing people to is not the right incentive. There is a point where medium will begin to get boring and people will naturally want to move up if they are able, but making them stall for not doing so is a bad design.

[espher]

Alright, I guess I just simply view the progression differently.

*shrug*

[Grey_Street]

I just don't see the issue, it hurts no one and benefits many. It just makes sense that you shouldn't be stopped in stride due to the difficulty you chose. I've never played a game that doesn't let you continue if you aren't on the highest difficulty.

This would be like having an arbitrary cap on career score for GH 1&2 if you don't play expert. Sure there is some cap based on the highest possible score you can get for a FC, but this would be akin to having it stop counting your career score at a level far below what would be possible.

Everyone is saying that only people upset are posting here, well I would argue many more people are upset than are posting here. The largest majority of people playing this game will never come to a video game forum...they will just get frustrated and quit. I've told two different friends now that both have the game about the cap. Both thought it was stupid and one had already grown frustrated because he and his roommate hit the cap.

If you want people to continue d/ling new songs, then don't force them to play those new songs on a higher difficulty just to gain fans. Remember that what shipped w/ this game is just the tip of the iceberg. There are going to be more and more songs to keep the BWT mode interesting and if you have to play those songs on Hard or Expert right away, many people just won't bother. I think it is everyone's best interest to keep this game alive and people wanting to buy more content. It's not the revenue of the hardcore gamer that will make DLC a continued hit...

[MJDoja]

I note that every person who has spoken against the removal of caps mentions how they have been playing the games on solo or have been playing only with one or two friends that worked through the GH series of games until everyone was on hard/expert. They anticipate playing RB for months until they have five-starred all the gigs and unlocked everything.

In short, there is nobody on that side of the fence who has even the slightest clue what the others are talking about.

So that they can get some perspective, I advocate the following:

Stop playing Rock Band, go sit down with the family you haven't seen in months, enjoy life with friends who lke to do things other than videogames, and generally live like a person who doesn't worry about whether or not their score at a video game cracks the top 100.

Then, come back with all these people new to the game, and see how much fun you have when everyone is jazzed and into it, and then suddenly the game effectively stops because nobody can play drums above easy without feeling like an uncoordinated fool.

I bet you'll change your tune real quick..

ok bud. REAL QUICK

[Licensed to IL]

I just don't see the issue, it hurts no one and benefits many. It just makes sense that you shouldn't be stopped in stride due to the difficulty you chose. I've never played a game that doesn't let you continue if you aren't on the highest difficulty.

This would be like having an arbitrary cap on career score for GH 1&2 if you don't play expert. Sure there is some cap based on the highest possible score you can get for a FC, but this would be akin to having it stop counting your career score at a level far below what would be possible.

Everyone is saying that only people upset are posting here, well I would argue many more people are upset than are posting here. The largest majority of people playing this game will never come to a video game forum...they will just get frustrated and quit. I've told two different friends now that both have the game about the cap. Both thought it was stupid and one had already grown frustrated because he and his roommate hit the cap.

If you want people to continue d/ling new songs, then don't force them to play those new songs on a higher difficulty just to gain fans. Remember that what shipped w/ this game is just the tip of the iceberg. There are going to be more and more songs to keep the BWT mode interesting and if you have to play those songs on Hard or Expert right away, many people just won't bother. I think it is everyone's best interest to keep this game alive and people wanting to buy more content. It's not the revenue of the hardcore gamer that will make DLC a continued hit...

^Truth right there.

[turnthree]

Buying a 360 in anticipation of RB
Pre-ordering months ago
Loud clunky drums
Broken guitar
Broken mic
The look on my 9 year olds face when we keep getting zero fans

Rock Band = Priceless

[surgesnugs]

I agree that if you're going to give the user the option of choosing a difficulty level, then there shouldn't be a requirement to increase that level built into any of the game modes. I mean, the game increases in difficulty based on the songs regardless of difficulty level, so that should be enough. If the concern is leaderboards, then have a multiplier applied to the score based on difficulty level.

[Dun1a]

My wife is just starting on the guitar and has to play on easy. I've never managed over 3 stars on an expert song or completed the hard levels on GH2 or 3. I'm just starting out on the drums and working through medium difficulty.

She and I are never going to kill on the leaderboards and don't care about it. We just want to see all the cities and the arenas and do all the playlists and have fun. We're already frustrated that we get zero fans for every performance. I didn't even know that meant we would be locked out of cities and playlists. That sucks.

[ShadowOfEden]

I just don't see the issue, it hurts no one and benefits many. It just makes sense that you shouldn't be stopped in stride due to the difficulty you chose. I've never played a game that doesn't let you continue if you aren't on the highest difficulty.




Well, games usually don't need to force you to change the difficulty because they get harder naturally as you progress. Rock Band doesn't get harder progressively, so they had to find a way. But yeah, they should make something like the more fans you have, the less you'll receive unless you are playing on a higher difficulty. So eventually, you would be getting very very few fans, but that would be much later.

[Slinky826]

Rock Band doesn't get harder progressively, so they had to find a way.
So you're going to tell me that a song like In Bloom is just as difficult as Green Grass and High Tides? Sorry, but the game DOES get progressively harder as you play. And you don't even have to change to difficulty to see that.

Also,is the leaderboards even a problem? Don't you normally get higher scores on higher difficulty levels simply due to the fact there are more notes to play? And if people are so concerned about the leaderboards for fans, just ditch that leaderboard (which seems kinda silly anyway, score seems like a more accurate way to judge a band's skill). That or have the game track your fans based on difficulty, tracked by the lowest difficulty used by a band member. Then just break down the fans leaderboard by difficulty.

The main thing is, don't punish gamers for not being super good at a game and limiting our fun. Not everyone is good at rhythm games. Some poeple just lack the natural rhythm required to do really well at games like this (or even real instruments). Admittly, I'm one of those people. But it doesn't stop me from having fun rocking out on medium.

[MJDoja]

So you're going to tell me that a song like In Bloom is just as difficult as Green Grass and High Tides? Sorry, but the game DOES get progressively harder as you play. And you don't even have to change to difficulty to see that.

Also,is the leaderboards even a problem? Don't you normally get higher scores on higher difficulty levels simply due to the fact there are more notes to play? And if people are so concerned about the leaderboards for fans, just ditch that leaderboard (which seems kinda silly anyway, score seems like a more accurate way to judge a band's skill). That or have the game track your fans based on difficulty, tracked by the lowest difficulty used by a band member. Then just break down the fans leaderboard by difficulty.

The main thing is, don't punish gamers for not being super good at a game and limiting our fun. Not everyone is good at rhythm games. Some poeple just lack the natural rhythm required to do really well at games like this (or even real instruments). Admittly, I'm one of those people. But it doesn't stop me from having fun rocking out on medium.

if you could get everything on medium, why would anybody play hard?

isnt playing the songs enough for you?