All Event and "Bar Night" Organizers Only!!

[BIGTIMEJAMMER]

In previous posts I read that it is illegal to charge to particapate. but has anyone thought about this idea?

instead of just hosting rockband night, what if we put on a tournament.

Would this be illegal to charge to enter a tournament?

I've been in the planning stages of putting together some guidelines for a multi bar tournament series with a huge cash payout for the winners.

I'm having a hard time believing it's ilegal to pay to enter a tournament. Or should I say to charge a fee to enter.

This thread is what I've been looking for as far as people interested in a nationwide organization of rockband and GHWT promoters.

but I guess the first order of business would be the the legal aspects. I operate a free Poker league which operates in bars weekly. For the poker I can not charge to play because poker is considered gambling. The bars pay to host the tournaments. I was hoping to add this promotion to my list of bar promotions.

could someone explain why it is illegal to charge to enter a tournament?

I would think it was no differnt than bowling, darts, or pool which all have huge tournaments and all charge to enter.

Please reply if you have knowledge of the legal aspects here.

Thanks
BIGTIMEJAMMER

[Klubby]

The difference is at pool, bowling and darts, those things aren't licensed. You pay to play each time anyway usually.

With Rock Band, one user holds the license for the music that is being played. Therefore, that user cannot charge someone else to play. It would almost be similar to buying a CD, burning a bunch of copies and then selling it.

I have paid to actually enter a tournament, but it was for a charity benefit. The bands weren't "paying to play," they were paying into the charity, not only for the charity, but also for the prizes being awarded.

I have seen other tournaments where prizes were being awarded and such, but don't know how that works or how it would have to be "worded" legally. I guess you would have to say that the entry fees are there to cover for the prizes themselves, not for the band to play.

Then again, I'm not a lawyer, or Harmonix or any sort of expert on the subject so I guess I shouldn't have replied. lol

ETA: I wonder if the kind folks at Harmonix are taking note of this thread? I would love to hear their input on the legalities of such things... I personally don't think THEY would have a problem as it is only a bunch of free advertising. I'm not sure about record companies and such.

[BIGTIMEJAMMER]

Thanks Klubby

interesting..... there are at least 3 pay to play tournaments listed here on these forums.

And as far as the folks at Harmonics go..... well I emailed them a couple times to see if there were any legal issues I need to take care of and they never even replied with even so much as a thank you for your email.

The entry fees would be used to pay the Grand prize 10k and also all lower cash prizes. And a mere percentage would be kept for operating expense such as advertizing, website, and you know the rest. And don't forget a little something for yours truely.

I understand what your saying about the lic. but by the same token a karoke song is still licensed. And someone is paying to have the song played. the record companies are not getting anything from that. Harmonics is not getting a cut of a karoke operators revenue. And someone is paying for the use of the game, songs, and equipment.

I too would love to hear from the good folks at Harmonics.

Don't get me wrong Klubby I'm not trying to have a legal debate here I probably, no let me say, "I for sure know less than you about the legal part". I'm just having a hard time understanding the differnce between the 2 promotions. And I suppose most of my wonderment comes from the fact that everyone is already doing it on a small scale already.

There are gamer sites where you buy tokens and use them to get into tournaments that pay money. And not just for RockBand for many many games.

but once again this is small time compaired to what I want to do. Most tournaments that you can enter pay $100 to win all the way to $300 is the most I've seen. I plan on paying 10k to the winner and many more cash prizes.

The game is a hit with young and old (I'm 49) and if allowed by law my idea will provide the bar owners great entertainment for the crowd, promote sales of the game and gear, and put some big cash in a few americans hands. And for those who don't make any cash they will still be satisfied with just being able to perform. I'm at a loss to see why anyone would object.

thanks for the reply looking forward to more.

And if anyone from Harmonics reads this please share with us the legality of pay to play.

[LiquidKourage]

Technically speaking, yes. Bars pay karaoke companies, who in turn play karaoke tracks. However, the bar is paying for the time of the host, the sound equipment, marketing, promotions, and a lot of other things than the karaoke tracks themselves. The karaoke company purchases the tracks, which have been licensed and rerecorded by the manufacturer, and uses them in the fair, legal, and intended use of the product. Where does the original artist get their compensation? Both from the karaoke manufacturer and from the bar itself, which is typically pays annual fees to a group called ASCAP whose purpose is to handle collecting royalty fees for public performances of non-public domain music. Most any bar that hires bands, DJs, karaoke companies, or even owns a jukebox, pays an annual fee to ASCAP for a blanket license.

That all being said, it does not violate any legal rights that I am aware of to provide Rock Band in a public setting. Just to be safe, it is an understanding I have with my venues that the fee I charge does NOT include my Rock Band services; technically, I do not get paid to offer Rock Band. Instead, I am paid for my time, sound equipment, expertise, marketing/promotions, and everything else that comes into hosting a karaoke show. I just happen to also offer Rock Band at my shows.

I do agree with Klubby that based on my limited knowledge, charging people directly to perform Rock Band tracks would be a violation of the agreement implicit upon purchase of Rock Band. The only way I can see a tournament with an entry fee being legal would be if it was a charitable event (with proceeds going to the charity, of course) or if any fees charged went directly and exclusively to the execution of the competition i.e. prizes, compensation for hosts/judges etc., and other vital tournament expenses. If you were to, as you say, take "a little something for yours truly", you need to be able to justify any money you take, be it in consultation fee or something similar.

But that's just my 2 cents.

[Ravaana]

I noticed you mentioned you had a couple of bugs to work out.
Can you share what they were?

Yeah I can elaborate on some of the bugs we found.

The first was with the Dolby Digital settings in the Xbox dashboard. We found that we were experiencing a good amount of feed back during one of the "shows." It wasn't anything extremely drastic, just usually appeared when somebody began to "chew" on the mic. The first thing we did was switch out the duel blockhead mic system for the standard RB mic, for a few reasons.

The RB mics aren't as sensitive as the blockheads, and are a bit cheaper. The second, someone broke one while playing cowbell. No it wasn't the Reaper =( That seemed to reduce it a little. But not as much as we hoped.

The second thing we did was change the sensitivity settings, seemed to help a little, but not completely. So we tried switching to stereo in the RockBand 2 sound settings.

That helped a bit, and it seemed to get a little better. But when a few people began drinking and once again "chewing" on the mic, it reared it's ugly head once more. Now, I am not saying that it was a constant feedback, but it did appear. Finally I went into the main console settings and switched it to stereo. And that put an end to that. I can now have the mic sensitivity at 40-50% and still not get it.

We also had a few delay issues with both projectors. I am not completely sure what caused it, but the rear projector didn't seem to sync up with the front. Not really an issue for the band, nor crowd, but was slightly annoying. I thin all Flynn did was change a cable and reboot the projector. Seemed to work fine after that.

I still want to work back in the multiple mics, but have been rather hesitant to do so. So far, I am doing this out of charity. I love entertaining people, and so the only form of payment I get out of it are whatever tips people place in my can. I have just been so busy with my real job, that I haven't been able to expand much as of late, or continually update forum posts.

As you can see, my old one died. Sigh. Oh well. Can't win em all.

Technically speaking, yes. Bars pay karaoke companies, who in turn play karaoke tracks. However, the bar is paying for the time of the host, the sound equipment, marketing, promotions, and a lot of other things than the karaoke tracks themselves. The karaoke company purchases the tracks, which have been licensed and rerecorded by the manufacturer, and uses them in the fair, legal, and intended use of the product. Where does the original artist get their compensation? Both from the karaoke manufacturer and from the bar itself, which is typically pays annual fees to a group called ASCAP whose purpose is to handle collecting royalty fees for public performances of non-public domain music. Most any bar that hires bands, DJs, karaoke companies, or even owns a jukebox, pays an annual fee to ASCAP for a blanket license.

That all being said, it does not violate any legal rights that I am aware of to provide Rock Band in a public setting. Just to be safe, it is an understanding I have with my venues that the fee I charge does NOT include my Rock Band services; technically, I do not get paid to offer Rock Band. Instead, I am paid for my time, sound equipment, expertise, marketing/promotions, and everything else that comes into hosting a karaoke show. I just happen to also offer Rock Band at my shows.

I do agree with Klubby that based on my limited knowledge, charging people directly to perform Rock Band tracks would be a violation of the agreement implicit upon purchase of Rock Band. The only way I can see a tournament with an entry fee being legal would be if it was a charitable event (with proceeds going to the charity, of course) or if any fees charged went directly and exclusively to the execution of the competition i.e. prizes, compensation for hosts/judges etc., and other vital tournament expenses. If you were to, as you say, take "a little something for yours truly", you need to be able to justify any money you take, be it in consultation fee or something similar.

But that's just my 2 cents.

It would be illegal to charge for the service. Even an entry fee for a tournament could be pushing it. And The only way I could think of would be to do a charity drive. I would make sure you speak to a lawyer and flesh out the details, but I know a certain amount may be retained by the "establishment" during a charity event to pay for employees, equipment, and a few other Costs of Goods. But Law is not my forte.

[RockBandLosAngeles]

Gabe, I see my email to you possibly provoked this thread! Hey, guys, I host 'Rock Band Nights Los Angeles (www.rockbandnightlsa.com) and we've been doing this for about 6 months. We now have 3 nights a week in 3 different bars, and are in discussions with other bars and hoping to expand even further. It's a crazy and fun business, and a lot of the basics have been covered well so far. I would agree that it is better to focus on the 'karaoke' aspect of what we do as it is difficult to find a large number of hard core experts players for contests, but every now and then a contest is good and necessary.

I have been in contact as well with a few of us around the country and like the idea of a loose association or organization of 'Rock Band Hosts'. Please visit my website, because I think that if you are going to be legit and recognized you MUST have a good website. Myspace and Facebook are very necessary, but a good website gives you business legitimacy. I build and host my own sites and would like to offer my services to other rock band hosts, so we can have some consistency and very good links to each other so when people go online and search for 'where to play' they can find us. That was one of the problems I had before I started hosting, I found it very difficult to find 'where to play' information online. You hear rumors that a place is hosting Rock Band, but you can't find any solid information that it is out there. So, fellow hosters, let me know and perhaps we can link up. I can build and setup your website for fairly cheap, especially if we are all linked in, because it helps promote all of us. on that note, email me at info@rockbandnightsla.com

Definitely have to agree with Gabe that you cannot ever charge people to play this game. Bars pay us to host, which is fine, we can set out a 'tip jar' (we call it 'help us get more downoadable content') which is fine, but never charge to play.

You have to learn how to marry video/audio presentations into any situation, and headaches will occur. We recently had to buy a new xbox because our old one kept freaking out over different HDTV signals and would give us the 'red ring of death!' for 20 minutes. Build your songbooks to rival karaoke song books. Always have backup guitars, drum pads, pedals, mics because you never know what can break down and shut you down.

If you are going to do this seriously, you need to be using the Xbox system. It just is a better relationship between microsoft and harmonix. We have a little over 300 songs between downloads and RB1 and RB2. We have made a personal and business choice to not download every song because we want to set a certain music mood and tone at our events. The biggest complaint we hear, and I'm sure others will agree, is the lack of female vocal songs available. On my website you will see a top ten list of requested songs, and the real news is that No Doubt has 4 our our top 15 requested songs. We need to hit up harmonix to release more female vocal songs, the girls want to sing and they want to sing girl songs!

Todd

[LiquidKourage]

If you are going to do this seriously, you need to be using the Xbox system. It just is a better relationship between microsoft and harmonix.

I don't agree with this statement. I've been hosting these events for a year and a half with a PS3, and not only have I never had an A/V issue or a system failure, but I also have all my purchased DLC on multiple systems, for redundancy and expansion purposes. True, it appears Microsoft and Harmonix have a better working relationship than Sony, but I can't see much of a situation where that would have an impact on my business. Perhaps the only thing I can think of is that if I were to get any "perks" from Harmonix, they might be 360-specific. But I've hosted a few hundred nights with no issue.

Not trying to start a console war by any means. Let me change the subject to something I'd like other hosts to chime in on. What is your opinion on drums? Do you run a standard RB/RB2 drum set, IONs, or some sort of modified system? What made you make your decision?

I run old-school RB1 drums. I own an RB2 set, but I noticed (and maybe I had a bad set, or maybe it's because it was a launch day model...) that the wireless nature of the drums would cause the occasional dropped hit. As a hardcore drummer, that REALLY irritated me, so I went back to the tried-and-true QM set. However now, I'm getting an ION set in a week or so, and I'm trying to decide if I start using it for show use. My concerns are about damage, setup time, and ease of transport. What does everyone else think?

[Ravaana]

Not trying to start a console war by any means. Let me change the subject to something I'd like other hosts to chime in on. What is your opinion on drums? Do you run a standard RB/RB2 drum set, IONs, or some sort of modified system? What made you make your decision?

I run old-school RB1 drums. I own an RB2 set, but I noticed (and maybe I had a bad set, or maybe it's because it was a launch day model...) that the wireless nature of the drums would cause the occasional dropped hit. As a hardcore drummer, that REALLY irritated me, so I went back to the tried-and-true QM set. However now, I'm getting an ION set in a week or so, and I'm trying to decide if I start using it for show use. My concerns are about damage, setup time, and ease of transport. What does everyone else think?

I, personally, use the RB2 wireless drum set. Keeping the players wireless helped us spread everyone out and give them room for movement. Especially when we had the other mics set up.

Also, having everyone with a wireless instrument, helped a bunch with the lag, or calibration issues. Having one wired and the rest wireless could potentially result in dropped notes, or someone complaining that it isn't properly calibrated.

I have debated a few times on the ION but, like I said before, I do this for free essentially. No one pays me, but people seem to enjoy it. So for myself, personally, if people would throw more money in the tip jar, I would invest it into an ION kit. Providing that I wouldn't have to replace it within a few months. Currently the tips I get go towards DLC. But if people want the ION, I could give it to them. It is just a pocket expense that I cannot afford right now.

[RockBandLosAngeles]

I prefer the RB2 over the RB1 drums, but since Circuit City swallowed a complete RB2 kit that I sent in for exchange on their warranty, I have been using the RB1 drums with an amplified USB extension and the Drum Pad silencers. The RB1 drums with pads will probably last longer than RB2 drums, and they are cheaper to replace, and quite frankly, 99% of the people who play drums play on easy or medium.

I just acquired the ION kit this week and am going to put that monster together in my living room today, but there is no way I would take that kit, or my Omega pedal, into a bar with a bunch of drunks. I have maybe two serious RB drummers in the 3 bars I do this in, and they get frustrated because they don't score as well as they do at home, but I think this is mostly due to the nature of the venue. When I first started playing in bars I didn't score as well either, but I have adapted and seem to score within 2 or 3 percent of what I get at home now. The first problem is that the sound in a big room bounces around, and while we calibrate the tv monitor the band uses, it is really difficult to get every tv in sync. But mostly, playing on stage in a bar is also more distracting, so I tell people just go up there and have fun and quit worrying about your score!

How many of you are going to say; "This is ROCK Band, NOT BLUES Band!" When Harmonix releases Texas Flood?

LOL! People are constantly asking for Neil Diamond or Barbra Streisand, and I say 'This is Rock Band, not Lounge Band!'

[Zoologico]

Awesome posts, thank you.

I am making a inventory/equipment list and I can't figure out which to get because they both have different advantages.

PS3
Able to download DLC to multiple systems (have all purchased DLC on multiple systems, for redundancy and expansion purposes)

360
Stage kit integration

Both folks here seems to be successful with either system, so I guess this is minor.