What Happened to Flame Notes In Rockband Blitz?????

[grace_pressure]

And again, the last time you checked, the industry standard in polling was wrong. That means their methods and analysis was wrong. Just because everybody wants to believe them, it doesn't make them right.

Er... they're actually pretty good. As are many other polling organizations that do this.

[Epsilon82]

This is true. But by the laws of statistics, you cannot rely on such a small sample as representationally accurate for an entire population.

True, and it's readily obvious that pretty much by definition that this thread is not by any means a representative sample, but I don't think that's really the point here. The point is that Harmonix seems to be asserting that while most hardcore, dedicated, enthusiastic (whatever you want to call us) players are seeing red over this change, the other 99% of the user base either has no problem with it or are happy about it. I would just like to know how they know this.

I think all cowboys282 is really trying to say is that we at least have some significant evidence of widespread discontent among the game's most ardent players, via this thread. We have very little evidence of any widespread support for the nerf among more casual players. It's really hard to imagine that 99% of the 99% (if you will) even had the faintest idea or cared in the slightest about what was going on at the very top of the leaderboards, much less would hinge their participation in Tournaments that by definition reward the very best of the best and the hardest core players on whether a particular powerup was nerfed into virtual nonexistence.

The entire rationale is incredibly flimsy and doesn't withstand logical scrutiny. The whole thing just reeks of some really poorly-considered speculation on their part, unless they somehow have the resources to conduct sophisticated polling of vast swaths of casual players, which would be far more expensive than it would be to patch the game.

[Santa Claustrophobia]

Er... they're actually pretty good. As are many other polling organizations that do this.

Then maybe somebody should hire them to conduct a much broader poll than this single thread can provide.

And Gallup makes mistakes just like anybody else does. They've done their share of push-polling, too.

The key argument is that this thread represents the larger Blitz playerbase. Given repeated statements by HMX that these forums do not accurately coincide with wider playing trends for all of HMX's products, the only thing that is true is that this thread is filled with people who don't like it. There is nothing else that is true about it.

Bringing up an outside polling group, who has not provided polling data on this issue, as proof is a smoke screen. The issue at hand is flame notes and what HMX did with them. The facts are that they did something to them and may, at some point, do something else to them.

Why this thread needs the same voices repeating the same things is anybody's guess. Unless it's just so that like-minded people can form a safe, anonymous 'mod' to shout down anybody who disagrees with them.

Probably the only fact we have here is that there are people for whom the leaderboards are more fun than the game.

[Epsilon82]

And again, the last time you checked, the industry standard in polling was wrong. That means their methods and analysis was wrong. Just because everybody wants to believe them, it doesn't make them right.

Not that it's really all that relevant, but Gallup's last poll had the race at a statistical tie. And regardless, even if Gallup were wrong and had Romney winning outside the margin of error, that still doesn't cast any aspersions on the general efficacy of polling. The polling aggregates all had Obama winning handily.

[AJayN85]

The point is that Harmonix seems to be asserting that while most hardcore, dedicated, enthusiastic (whatever you want to call us) players are seeing red over this change, the other 99% of the user base either has no problem with it or are happy about it. I would just like to know how they know this.

I realize I'm putting a ton of stock into the data stored at Rock Central, but when HMXHenry can say this regarding earning more than 4 stars in Blitz:

I think that was the point that Pope was making, that most players don't ever get to that point. It's similar to the core RB experience where, even now, almost 6 years into the franchise, the vast majority of people still play on Medium.

and HMXPope saying this about the average RB player:

Can you clarify how Gold Stars have been devalued? I think this shows a bit of a disconnect between your skill level you've become accustomed to playing at and that of the average (majority of) players. For a lot of players, getting only 5 Stars is a tough goal, let alone Gold Stars.

it leads me to believe that Rock Central is capturing all the data from our games and informing HMX's decisions. And if a "vast majority" of Rock Band players are still playing on Medium, and a "majority of players" is still working to earn 5 stars in Blitz, it wouldn't be too much of a stretch to think that a majority of Blitz players would not have felt the effects of the Flame nerf.

(Insert long discussion of why the mechanics of Flame notes would not be easy to take advantage of for average players on a 4- or 5-lane song when compared to Blast, Pinball, or even Runaway notes. TL;Didn't Write: average players can't think and twitch that fast.)

This would also explain why certain genres and bands get ever-replenishing DLC releases. I read a Reddit thread on /r/RockBand just now about wanting more Radiohead while the Foo Fighters get yet another release... which brings me back to the 211k people who have played "These Days" on Blitz, while most of the other songs hover around 31k total players.

Welcome to marketing/economics in the year 2013.

[Santa Claustrophobia]

This would also explain why certain genres and bands get ever-replenishing DLC releases. I read a Reddit thread on /r/RockBand just now about wanting more Radiohead while the Foo Fighters get yet another release... which brings me back to the 211k people who have played "These Days" on Blitz, while most of the other songs hover around 31k total players.

Welcome to marketing/economics in the year 2013.

Not really, no. Licensing is hard (and expensive). Which basically means that HMX gets the songs they get because a) the rights holder is willing to work with them and b) the fee for doing so isn't too outrageous.

We get more Foo Fighters tracks because the Foo Fighters are willing to license them. While that doesn't mean that Radiohead (or any other under/non-represented artists) doesn't, it's just more likely that they don't.

HMX can't get content that licensors aren't willing to provide.

The most relevant thing that play data provides HMX is that it's likely the playerbase prefers a particular artist. By that token, we should have way more A7X songs than we do. But we don't because licensing is hard (and expensive).


But all that isn't really relevant to flame notes and whether or not HMX has any data that would disprove the idea that everybody hates what recently happened. (History has shown one thing. And that is HMX will pretty much not divulge the specifics of their data but will continue to point out that these forums are not an accurate representation of the data they have. So I know who I believe.)

[Epsilon82]

Given repeated statements by HMX that these forums do not accurately coincide with wider playing trends for all of HMX's products, the only thing that is true is that this thread is filled with people who don't like it. There is nothing else that is true about it.

Harmonix can say that most people play RB3 on Medium all they want, but that has nothing to do with whether their implication that nerfing Flame Notes to the point of complete uselessness was necessary to maximize Tournament participation has any factual or logical merit.

Probably the only fact we have here is that there are people for whom the leaderboards are more fun than the game.

That's a pretty ignorant thing to say. The entire objective of the game is to achieve the highest scores a player can within his or her own skill set. Flame Notes were part of the game, and many players enjoyed using them. Whether someone was at the top, middle, or bottom of the leaderboards, Flames used to have a certain effectiveness that was commensurate with the skill required to use them. Even the mashing exploit (to the extent that anyone actually used it in practice) requires a dexterity far beyond what most players would ever be capable anyway.

Now, we're basically forced to use either Pinball (which is completely divorced from the mechanics of interacting with the music) or Blast Notes (which are far less dynamic and challenging to utilize than Flame Notes) to have any chance of even approaching our OWN scores, much less the top of the leaderboard.

[AJayN85]

Not really, no. Licensing is hard (and expensive). Which basically means that HMX gets the songs they get because a) the rights holder is willing to work with them and b) the fee for doing so isn't too outrageous.

I agree, licensing is a relevant factor. However, they definitely do take into consideration what is getting played a lot and what fans would like to see. The article about HMX hurriedly chasing down the rights to use Gangnam Style as DLC for Dance Central 3 shows that they'll go to great lengths in order to get the perfect song for a game:

http://www.polygon.com/2012/11/26/36...ce-central-psy

Also, in addition to gameplay data, note the Cred stats and wishlist feature on the Rock Band World app. Both are fun, interactive features that encourage the accumulation of statistics while providing HMX with great first-hand data on what would be good targets for DLC.

[Epsilon82]

HMXPope saying this about the average RB player:



it leads me to believe that Rock Central is capturing all the data from our games and informing HMX's decisions. And if a "vast majority" of Rock Band players are still playing on Medium, and a "majority of players" is still working to earn 5 stars in Blitz, it wouldn't be too much of a stretch to think that a majority of Blitz players would not have felt the effects of the Flame nerf.

But that's exactly the point: their own interpretation of their data does absolutely nothing to lend credence to their contention that Tournament participation would have been lower if they hadn't nerfed Flames. If a vast majority of Blitz players can't even get 5 stars, then what on Earth makes them think those players would be tuned in enough to the machinations of the highest echelons of Blitz play that they would even give a flying crap about it at all?

In order to believe Harmonix's logic is sound, it's not enough to say that "most players don't care." You have to believe that most players ACTIVELY WANTED this nerf. And that's where the logic completely falls apart. People who can't get 5 stars easily on every song in Blitz would never even think about using Flame Notes, much less have any kind of understanding of the consequences killing them off would have. They probably don't even have opinions or even awareness of the "issue," and even if they did, they would almost surely be based on a lacking understanding of the game's mechanics.

As an example, I'm a casual Call of Duty player. I couldn't care less about my K/D ratio or anything like that. If Treyarch made a gameplay adjustment that completely obliterated the game for high-level players, I wouldn't notice or even particularly care. But that's not at all the same thing as saying that I am "fine with the change." I just don't have enough of an investment in the game to even have an informed opinion, much less an affirmative stake in its implementation.

[JCirri]

Just to make sure it's clear, it wouldn't surprise me as I said earlier if the vast majority of players don't even know that a nerf took place.

My main point is that the nerf is likely only to cause harm (how much harm is debatable) among those who either used flames or had friends that used flames in a more casual manner. Certainly the percentage affected from that group is far less than the percentage of hardcore people posting here, but at same time I fail to see how this benefits anyone with the leaderboard curve and pool of people at the top remaining virtually unchanged (only now using pinball/sync).

The only real impact I'd expect this to have on all players is to almost entirely eliminate the use of flames going forward.